0:02

This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening

0:05

to Here's the Thing from My Heart

0:07

Radio. My guest

0:09

today has graced some of the world's

0:12

most famous stages. Of

0:14

veteran of the London Academy of Music

0:16

and Dramatic Art and the illustrious

0:18

Royal Shakespeare Company. He played Sebastian

0:21

in Twelfth Night at the Royal Court, Andrew

0:24

in Manhattan Theater Club's production of In

0:27

Celebration, Johnny in Holiday

0:29

at the Old Vic, and Jimmy in Look

0:31

Back in Anger at the Roundabout. That's

0:34

but a small sample of his many credits.

0:37

It's no understatement to say that his talent

0:40

and his range are remarkable,

0:42

Yet most audiences around the world

0:45

know him best for a single

0:47

iconic character. It was

0:50

the next day, Province, and

0:52

I had truly done my best morning

0:54

and afternoon to play it their way and

0:56

sit back a hotta show cooperative Malchick

0:59

in the chair of torture while they

1:01

flashed nasty bits of ultra violence

1:03

on the screen, though

1:06

not on the soundtrack my brothers, the only

1:08

sound being music. Then

1:11

I noticed, in all my plain and

1:13

sickness, what music it was that like cracked

1:16

and boomed. It

1:19

was Ludwig fan ninth

1:22

Symphony, fourth Movement. That

1:30

is the incomparable Malcolm McDowell

1:32

playing Alex de Large, the anti

1:35

heroic criminal turned victim

1:37

in Stanley Kubrick's A Clockwork Orange.

1:40

That groundbreaking film premiered some

1:42

fifty years ago, and McDowell's

1:44

performance in it is as riveting

1:47

today as it was then. Though

1:49

Clockwork made McDowell famous, it

1:51

was in fact the director Lindsey Anderson,

1:54

McDowell's lifelong friend and surrogate

1:57

father, who got him started in movies

1:59

when he cast young Malcolm as the lead

2:01

in the award winning film If. Yet,

2:04

for all his success, Malcolm McDowell

2:06

did not grow up with acting in

2:09

mind. It's so nice to see

2:11

you. God, are you too? Before

2:13

we get to you know, the obvious things

2:15

when you grew up, because when

2:18

you first started making films, and I want to talk

2:20

to about your career before you meet Lindsay

2:22

Anderson, before you make films and so forth.

2:25

What kind of a kid were you in terms

2:27

of were you like a rough and tumble,

2:29

rough house kid on a soccer field

2:32

or a rugby field? Yes, so you

2:34

were a tough guy. My father who

2:37

ran a hotel and pubs

2:39

and you know, establishments way

2:42

you could get drunk very easily. He

2:46

sent me to a we

2:48

call in England a public school, you

2:50

would call a private school. You have to

2:52

pay in other words, and it's a boarding

2:55

school. So because I

2:57

was disruptive, I

2:59

was a subversive child, and

3:02

so he just thought for

3:04

my own salvation, and actually I don't

3:06

thank god he did. He sent me to

3:08

a school where the headmaster

3:11

was in love with the theater.

3:14

So the acting thing started

3:16

when I was eleven at school

3:19

with this wonderful man, Mr

3:21

L. F. Baker Lance fag

3:25

f A G. G. Baker No,

3:28

yeah, and he I don't know. It's an old

3:30

English family name. And his brother

3:34

was the Air Chief Marshal

3:36

of the Royal Air Force, Sir John

3:38

Baker, who I used to go cuss his lawn

3:41

and get afternoon tea

3:44

where I first tasted Lapsang

3:46

Susan. I'm going, what's

3:49

this perfume in the team? No

3:51

more Prince of Wales for me, No

3:54

more Earl Gray for me? PG tips,

3:57

Yes, PG tips for me. When

3:59

you say, at least in your father's

4:02

eyes, it sounds that you

4:04

were a subversive child, how did that

4:06

benifest itself. Well the head you

4:09

know this. Mr Baker said to my

4:11

father that after I've

4:13

been there a year, he said, yes,

4:15

well Malcolm is very naughty,

4:18

but he's not malicious. That

4:20

were you close to your dad? No, my

4:23

father was an alcoholic. I mean I loved him

4:25

in many ways, but the alcoholism

4:28

just towards the end of his life.

4:30

I just figure, hey, come on, dad,

4:32

let's go down the pub by your drink, you know.

4:35

You know, he just couldn't get off

4:37

it. Did he live to see your success?

4:40

Yes, yes he did. He

4:42

was actually a driving instructor of

4:44

the time. And I still have these people in

4:47

Philadelphia, right. I was, you

4:49

know, taught by your dad, you know, And

4:51

of course he'd always say pull

4:53

over here, just gonna pop into this pub.

4:55

I've got to call my son in America, and

4:58

of course just go in

5:00

an order quick, you know, gin

5:02

and tonic or something. Now, when you

5:04

leave Mr Baker, when you leave

5:07

his school, where do you

5:09

go for your training? I went back to Liverpool

5:11

and I had this girlfriend who was

5:13

taking elocution lessons

5:16

because she was a receptionist.

5:19

She took me to this lovely

5:21

lady called Mrs Harold

5:24

actually, and I went to meet

5:26

with her. She was eighty two blind

5:29

as about very sweet, charming,

5:31

chrismatic. I mean, I just listened

5:34

to her, pay my ten shillings

5:36

an hour and just basically

5:39

listened to her talk about her time

5:41

as being in a silent

5:43

screen star. You know. She

5:45

said, look, you've got a good voice.

5:48

You could probably be an actor. Why didn't

5:50

you take this lander

5:52

exams? You know, and you can

5:54

then teach acting. I mean, good

5:56

God, I don't know anything about it

5:59

because I knew a bit from school because I played

6:01

all the great parts in Shakespeare before I

6:03

left school. So I did

6:05

these I won a gold medal. Then I

6:07

went down to London and did an

6:09

audition at LAMBDA, and they

6:12

gave me an associateship of

6:15

LAMBDA. So one of the

6:17

judges there offered

6:19

me a job in repertory theater, which I

6:21

leapt at and did you sing? No?

6:24

Not then, because there are people who don't know LAMBDA

6:27

is the London Academy of Music and Dramatic

6:29

Art. No singing for you? No singing?

6:32

No. At the time I think I was there,

6:35

I didn't go there. I just went

6:37

into the theater and did my pieces,

6:40

the audition pieces, and I was offered

6:42

a job to go to Shanklin

6:45

in the Isle of Wight in a repertory

6:47

theater for the summer season, and

6:50

you do one play every week and

6:52

new play. So you've had four

6:54

plays in your head. They

6:57

were all Agatha Christie, you know, really

7:00

horrendous things. You were at LAMBDA

7:02

for two years. The associates program was too No no,

7:04

no, I didn't go to Lambda.

7:06

I was just I just won their associate

7:09

chip, got it. And between that time

7:13

between the time when you are engaging, you

7:15

know, Ibsen and the Aisle of White, four shows

7:17

in your head at the same time, and you're gonna

7:19

meet Lindsay Anderson when you're years

7:22

old and was down the line for years

7:24

down the line. Not only what

7:27

were you doing in those intervening years you were you

7:29

were at the RSC correct for a little while.

7:31

Yes, well, I soon got

7:34

fed up with this weekly rep so I

7:37

figured I wanted to get to the Royal

7:39

Shakespeare Company. So I went

7:41

to this old actor who taught

7:44

auditions, because I figured,

7:46

you know, I never get past the damned

7:48

audition. I so I know I

7:50

can play the part, but I can't convince

7:52

them. So I went to somebody

7:55

that knew how to actually

7:57

do auditions, and he found

8:00

only a piece of Shakespeare that

8:02

was so out of the run

8:04

of the mill stuff. It was

8:06

the prologue to Henry

8:09

the Eighth. I don't even know whether

8:11

the Shakespeare ready wrote this play

8:13

or not, but anyway, I'll

8:16

never forget. The first line was

8:19

I come no more to make you

8:21

laugh. I don't remember anything

8:23

else about it except that, of course they

8:26

hadn't heard the peace, and so

8:28

you know, most people were doing to be or

8:30

not to be or you know, once

8:32

more until the breach, so they

8:34

hadn't heard. This kept them awake. They

8:37

actually offered me a season, so

8:40

I went there and I pretty

8:42

much really hated it.

8:46

Well, I found the stuff that they were doing

8:48

to be. You know, even in my

8:50

young youth, as a young actor, I

8:53

could distinguish

8:56

pretentious behavior. Who

8:58

was running the show there, Pieter

9:01

Hall, you know, an extraordinary director

9:03

really through the years, but he was a very young

9:05

man. I mean it's basically,

9:08

you know, sex booze gambling

9:12

the whole season. So we would

9:14

literally go to the Dirty Duck pub and

9:16

start gambling. This actor from

9:19

Ireland, Godfrey Quigley, he actually

9:21

played the priest in Clockwork Orange.

9:24

He was a wonderful guy, the prison

9:27

priest. Yeah, he's a wonderful

9:29

actor, wonderful. He was playing

9:31

you know, good parts to that. I was playing lousy.

9:34

But the priests, so people who realize

9:36

for people who like me are clockwork

9:38

freaks. And we'll do our clockwork thing in a little bit.

9:40

But the moment when Alex is envisioning

9:43

himself pitching right in to

9:45

the Crucifixion, I bideing myself

9:48

pitching right in or whatever the words are. That's

9:50

the priest who comes and interrupts your dream state.

9:53

That's right by sardon, he says, the big,

9:56

big, big, wonderful

9:58

irish. You know my boys, he says, my boy.

10:01

Yeah. He invented this gambling

10:03

game which you turn

10:05

these handles. You have these little toy

10:08

horses. It was such a stupid

10:10

game, but we ended up literally

10:13

I think I was two and a half months

10:16

behind on my I owed him everything

10:19

from my checks, not

10:21

that I was getting very much, but in

10:23

those days and I'd see

10:25

him backstage and they'd go,

10:28

malcome where you owe me? I mean,

10:30

I know, no, no, I'm I'm getting that together.

10:33

Don't worry, don't worry. Go for it. It's coming.

10:36

You weren't sure if you wanted to go on another

10:39

day in that condition. But let me just say that other

10:41

people I've spoken to older

10:43

than you, different generation. But you know, when I talked

10:45

to Tony Hopkins and he

10:47

talked about being at the National and

10:50

always dutifully

10:53

performing in the British theater and working

10:56

at the feet of Olivier so to speak, not

10:58

just dreaming, but knowing he was going to get the funk

11:01

out of there. He said he couldn't get

11:03

away from England fast enough. Yeah,

11:06

and leave behind you know that great tradition.

11:08

That did you feel the same way? I

11:10

knew that I did not want

11:12

to be exclusively a

11:15

stage actor. In

11:17

fact, when I gave my resignation

11:20

to Peter Hall and he looked at

11:22

me and he goes, you don't want to come back? I

11:24

went no, no, He goes,

11:26

well, what are you going to do? I

11:28

said, well, I'm I'm going into film.

11:31

He looked at me and went good luck. Yes,

11:36

real condescending. It was

11:38

fun when I saw him a couple of years later

11:41

in the RSC. Were there people you were

11:43

around who that you idolized?

11:45

Were the actors you've got to be even just be around

11:47

them who you loved. Yeah, the

11:50

number one were beside David Warner, who

11:52

was a friend, but someone that

11:55

I really idolized, who wasn't

11:57

necessarily a friend, was in

12:01

and In Home gave I think

12:03

one of the greatest performances I've

12:06

still ever seen. And

12:08

I was actually in the play with him.

12:10

It was Henry the Fifth and

12:15

you know, Ian was only five ft two

12:17

or something. It was tiny. The power

12:19

of this actor was extraordinary.

12:22

And you know, he used to invite me out

12:24

to go play tennis. A

12:26

couple of us actually go play tennis

12:29

because he'd rented this place that had a grass

12:32

tennis court, and every Sunday

12:34

we'd go and you know, kind of

12:36

have doubles matches and then

12:39

have cream tea. I just

12:41

loved this man so much. And

12:43

when I wasn't on stage, where

12:46

I would go and I had a place

12:48

in the wings to go watch him, and

12:50

I think I watched him, you know, for

12:52

nine months most nights. Yeah,

12:55

yeah, right when I did a play the

12:57

great great Black comic act

13:00

I mean, just the ceaselessly intoxicating

13:04

Joe Maher, who owned all the

13:06

roles in Orton that he played Joe was

13:08

Irish but raised in England

13:10

and and and trained in England. And my

13:12

first Broadway show was in six

13:15

I did Loots. Oh my god,

13:17

I love that play. And you know he got

13:19

put in prison for defacing

13:21

bibles in the

13:23

library. Yeah, and book drawing cox

13:26

all over him in the garden as well, and

13:29

he was coot actor

13:33

Malcolm McDowell. Another

13:36

actor who has moved effortlessly from

13:38

stage to film and back is Kevin Klein.

13:41

I interviewed clin live at the

13:43

two River Theater in Red Bank, New Jersey,

13:45

where we talked about his great film career.

13:48

Actually, Meryl was a tremendous help.

13:51

I remember once I was making a

13:53

huge meal out of just had

13:55

to give Stingo, the character's name. I

13:57

had to give him some money because he had been robbed, and

14:00

I was doing, you know, you're a writer, you

14:02

need this money in Milliba and I was just

14:04

emoting, and she said, just

14:07

give money.

14:12

To listen to my full episode with Kevin Klein,

14:15

go to our archives at

14:17

Here's the Thing dot Org. After

14:19

the break, we get a glimpse into his unique

14:21

relationship with the great director Lindsey Anderson.

14:24

McDowell says they were like a married couple

14:27

with all of the ups and downs, and

14:29

tells us what he learned from Anderson

14:31

about acting life and the

14:33

importance of not imitating

14:35

Lawrence Olivier. I'm

14:47

Alec Baldwin and this is here's the thing. We're

14:49

speaking today with actor Malcolm McDowell.

14:52

Now, where does Lindsay Anderson find

14:54

you? Where does he find you? Well,

14:57

you know, it's my agent Gold say,

15:00

oh, I gotta go. I was actually rehearsing

15:02

at the Royal Court doing um twelfth

15:05

Night of Modern Dress version

15:07

at the Royal Court, you know, very trendy

15:10

and all that. So in the middle of the

15:12

rehearsal, my agent said, go

15:14

quickly, get to the theater. Whether it's a

15:16

director, you know, I want you to meet because

15:19

he's doing this film and what kind

15:21

of film. I don't know. We don't know what kind of film. Anyway,

15:23

So I go there and I

15:26

was late. They were just about

15:28

packing up to go to lunch, and I

15:30

went, I'm sorry, I came

15:32

on, you know, to the stage. He said,

15:34

sorry, I'm being stuck rehearsing.

15:37

They wouldn't let me go, and so

15:39

he jumped up on the stage and

15:42

we're talking, you know, I'm Lindsay

15:45

and said, oh hello. He said,

15:47

well what are you doing? And I said, you know, I'm doing

15:49

a twelfth Night at the Royal Court. It's

15:52

a modern dress version. And Lindsay

15:55

looked at him me and he went, oh, sounds

15:57

awful. I

15:59

went, well, and look, I mean

16:02

it's not awful. I mean, I'm, you know, very

16:04

happy to be working at the Royal Court of great

16:06

theaters supposedly, but it is

16:08

sort of actually, to be honest, it is awful.

16:11

It's very pretentious. These people, I mean,

16:13

who they they think they are. They've

16:16

got their noses up there. Asked, it's

16:18

you know. And so we spend the next

16:20

twenty minutes ragging on all

16:23

the people and gossiping about the Royal Court.

16:26

Then there's an impasse and he just says

16:28

to me, of course you do realize,

16:30

Malcolm, that I'm a director of the Royal

16:32

Court. I went, what, Oh

16:36

no, I said, well, I suppose

16:38

I'm not going to get this part then, am I? He

16:41

said, not necessarily.

16:44

So that was it. I read the

16:46

scene very badly, I think. But

16:48

he called me back in in two

16:50

weeks time for a kind of final

16:53

audition, and I met

16:56

this girl who I was, you

16:58

know, I said, Oh, I thought we would. I thought it was about

17:00

a boy's school. He went, well,

17:02

thre's other elements, you know, and

17:05

you're going to be playing with this girl.

17:07

And I looked over and instantly

17:10

fell in love with this girl,

17:13

who I thought was one of the

17:15

most beautiful women I've ever seen. She

17:18

actually played the part in the name was Christine

17:20

Nonan. And we have this scene

17:23

now. So I kept

17:25

looking at I thinking, oh, my gods,

17:28

fantastic. This is going to be fun if I gotta

17:30

get this. So I read the

17:32

thing and it says Mike grab's hold of girl, kisses

17:35

her passionately, and it was supposed

17:37

to be in the set of a coffee bar, and

17:40

I pulled her over a table

17:42

that was purporting to be the counter,

17:45

and you know, kissed her, but our

17:48

lips teeth banged together. That was

17:50

blood and

17:52

um. Suddenly I find

17:54

myself sitting on the floor.

17:57

I hadn't read the next line, which was savagely

18:01

slapped Mick. But apparently

18:04

she didn't slap me. She reared

18:07

up a punch and punched

18:09

me so hard that I literally

18:12

went down, I mean, like

18:14

boom out for the count and

18:17

I sort of sat there for days

18:20

because you know, my ears were ringing

18:22

and I was started to tear up.

18:25

I was just like basically crying

18:29

like a baby. Overwhelmed.

18:31

Yeah, I was so humiliated that

18:33

I got up and I went at

18:36

the screw. I don't know what happened to the script, and

18:38

it was electric. I

18:40

mean it really was. I'll never

18:42

forget the moment. You know, you rarely get

18:45

moments like that. That was sort

18:47

of just came out of nothing. And

18:50

eventually Lindsey said, okay,

18:52

thank you, and the writer

18:54

jumped up and he goes, we found

18:56

our mick, you know, And

18:59

of course he said, shut up, David,

19:01

that's not what we do. You know, we

19:03

will call his agent and

19:05

do it in the correct way. Now sit down and shut

19:08

up. But if you get back to Anderson, I want just want

19:10

to say that from what I've read, I

19:12

mean, you did a one man show where you

19:14

play Anderson, and

19:16

Anderson who embodied him? Well

19:18

you embody him, and Lindsey

19:21

Anderson is a famous director and those films are

19:23

famous films. If a no lucky mana

19:25

so for then he had a great career. But he's not

19:27

Stanley. You didn't decide to embody

19:29

Stanley on stage. And my point is is that

19:32

was Lindsey Anderson more of an actor's director

19:34

than Stanley way more. I

19:36

mean it's obvious I think from Stanley's

19:38

movies that really he's not really an actor's

19:40

director. But do you know, listen, why should

19:43

he be. I mean he had

19:45

in the main a fear

19:48

of actors, and I say a

19:50

fear because it was the one

19:52

element he couldn't control and

19:55

he was always obsessed with. Now

19:57

we're on Stanley. I'll get to him

19:59

in a minute. Let me just say

20:01

that Lindsay Anderson the

20:03

reason I did a one my show about

20:05

him, because he is he

20:08

has so much complexities as

20:11

a human being and as an artist

20:14

that he meant so much to me, you

20:16

know, because it was my first movie

20:19

and it was literally your first movie meeting, not

20:21

even small roles before this, this

20:24

was your first time on a movie. I

20:26

want you to talk about that. What was it

20:28

like? Well, you know, I've done television,

20:31

so I knew what a camera was, so

20:33

you've done some TV. I knew what I could do and

20:35

what I couldn't do, and I knew that

20:37

it was an internal process.

20:40

Whereas most actors who are trained. Of

20:42

course in England it's very external,

20:44

you know, not now, but in those days

20:47

there were no film actors and also

20:49

film actors were looked on as scum

20:52

sellouts. I mean, you

20:54

you're doing it just for the rent, are you?

20:57

And I know Michael Caine

20:59

had that all his whole life, you know, them

21:02

going but yes, but Michael, why

21:04

don't you do something in the theater?

21:07

You go, well, why the funk should I? When?

21:10

When are we going to see your leer? Michael?

21:13

Yeah, exactly, that would be interesting.

21:15

But anyway,

21:18

but Lindsay, you know, he was a

21:20

commudgeon. He was. My relationship

21:22

with him was like a

21:25

marriage almost in that it

21:27

was huge rows, big makeup.

21:30

I mean, he was just that's just the way it

21:32

was. He really taught me so

21:34

much about just life

21:37

and being an actor and what it

21:39

meant and the responsibility that

21:41

you had, you know, to be a leading

21:43

actor. And it's not just you

21:46

know, just doing the part. It's way

21:48

more than that. He

21:50

meant so much to me, you know that. You

21:53

know, when he died it was the

21:55

saddest, one of the saddest days of my life. Way

21:58

more affected me than my father. You

22:00

know, yeah,

22:02

yeah, now know with Anderson, when

22:04

you do the film and the film

22:07

is over, I mean, you do

22:09

three films in a row after

22:12

you do if you did

22:14

which film? I did a movie

22:17

called Figures and the Landscape directed

22:20

by Joe Losey, right,

22:22

and they only have two actors in it, the other

22:24

one being Robert Shaw. That's

22:27

a whole chapter in itself. Figures

22:30

in the Landscape and Raging Moon with another

22:32

film you did before you wind up with Stanley.

22:35

But my point is is that whether it's if

22:38

Clockwork eventually caligulate with

22:40

some of the content, these are films

22:42

where you wonder could these films

22:45

even get made today? I mean, you know,

22:47

if it's very violent in the end, and

22:50

the kind of swifty and satire

22:52

of Clockwork and its attitude towards

22:54

sex and violence, which you know, never

22:57

bothered me. I mean, Clockwork Ards is a movie

22:59

to me where I was with a friend

23:01

of mine. We were eighteen years old, and

23:04

it was in a revival house or showing

23:06

somewhere in a theater, uh in

23:08

the heart of residential Long Island, where I grew

23:10

up, and my friend and I we both

23:13

smoked a joint like the size

23:15

of a flashlight, you know what I mean. And

23:17

we smoked this joint and we go in and we

23:19

sit down, and the and the crushing

23:22

episodic rhythms of clockwork,

23:25

like when you get to certain points you go, certainly,

23:27

this has to be the end of the movie. This is it.

23:29

It's over. And then also they go and

23:31

then then the film is gonna look at you going not

23:33

yet. And then he does this, and

23:36

then he goes here, and now they're going to drown

23:38

him in the trough. Here he meets the boys again,

23:40

and it's gonna stick his head in the trough. But

23:43

my point is when you saw if,

23:45

when you first saw the film, after you were finished,

23:48

when it was screened for you, what were your thoughts?

23:50

What did you think? I was in shock

23:53

really because in those days it took

23:55

almost a year to edit the thing.

23:58

Yeah, you know, this is just before all those fancy

24:00

editing systems. So they do

24:02

it literally on a movieola, which steam

24:05

on a steamback before steamback

24:07

before stola with a pedal

24:10

and you. So it took

24:12

nine months and I had

24:14

no idea. They've done a screening which

24:16

I wasn't invited to, and it

24:19

was for sort of public opinion

24:21

people that kind of we're going to talk about

24:24

it supposedly. So

24:26

when I saw it, of course,

24:28

you know, I saw it from a very different perspective.

24:31

I'm and I'd come out of the thing and

24:33

I go, why did you leave that shopping where

24:35

I had my tongue?

24:40

And he go, it's charming, don't worry.

24:42

I went, no, it's horrible. I can't

24:44

even watch that damn movie again, you

24:46

know. So, and then we went

24:48

to the Canned Film Festival, which

24:51

was mind blowing because I had

24:53

no idea about any of it, and of

24:55

course, um, you know that it won

24:57

the ground prize it won. And was

25:00

thrilled for Lindsay because he

25:02

put so much. You know, he was a critic

25:05

and this magazine called Sequence, and it

25:07

was a brilliantly highly a

25:10

sort of intellectual film magazine.

25:12

Whether the film was considered art,

25:15

yeah, yeah, he wrote

25:17

this wonderful essay about why

25:20

film should be considered an art

25:22

and not only an entertainment.

25:25

And the thing was, Lindsay was a great

25:28

theater director. I mean he

25:30

only made what five movies or something,

25:32

but yes, but he was always

25:35

directing one of David's

25:37

stories plays. I mean they were literally

25:40

the great plays of

25:42

that the seventies and eighties, But

25:45

he did I think at least ten

25:47

or twelve of David's stories plays,

25:50

including The Changing Room and all

25:52

these great in celebration,

25:54

which Alan Bates did in

25:57

London and I did it in New York at the Manhattan

25:59

Theater Club in the wake of all your

26:02

success with IF and you win the prize

26:04

it can Did Lindsey try to

26:06

get you to come back to the theater with him? Did he try

26:08

to cajole? You know?

26:13

He wouldn't bother. He'd say to me things

26:15

like you're a very Bracketian

26:17

actor, aren't you. And I

26:20

go, well, if you say so,

26:22

what exactly are you referring

26:25

to? And he'd say, because

26:28

I noticed that sometimes you're telling

26:30

the audience, you're showing them that you're

26:32

acting this, but you're saying

26:34

but you're gonna believe me anyway.

26:37

I went, that's very interesting. So

26:40

um, he'd say things like that to me,

26:42

you know, which I hadn't got a clue really what. I went

26:45

to see Olivier do uh

26:48

one of the O'Neill plays that went on for seven

26:50

hours. But Olivier I

26:52

went to see, I mean, we were shooting a lucky Man,

26:54

and I noticed the way Olivia

26:57

got a round of applause just

26:59

by crossing his legs on a

27:01

sofa. He did it in such

27:04

a way he got a standing ovation,

27:06

and I'm thinking himself, God, that's so

27:08

brave, you know, to do that. So

27:11

we're shooting a scene, no lucky man,

27:13

and I did something completely off

27:16

the wall, and Linda goes, cut, what

27:19

on earth are you doing? And

27:21

I went, he goes, I don't even tell me.

27:23

I know what this is. This is

27:25

because you've seen Lawrence

27:27

Olivia, right, And

27:30

I well, I thought it would be more

27:32

interesting, you know, to try and just

27:34

live on up this. He goes, Malcolm, just

27:37

do what you're supposed to do. Let's

27:39

have none of that nonsense. I mean, okay,

27:41

okay, that's funny. I did

27:44

a performance of a play I did Eques

27:47

out here on Long Island at the Bass Street Theater,

27:49

and Shaffild was alive and attended

27:51

all of the rehearsals. And I sat down

27:53

with him and I said, do you think I should go to

27:55

Lincoln Center Library and watch the original

27:57

performance which was taped. Chaff It

28:00

says to me, Oh, I don't know, Alec

28:02

you should Barbara going to see

28:05

the recording, he said. None

28:07

of them wanted to be recorded. He

28:09

said, with button Maxwell refused to come to

28:12

work, and the videotaped

28:14

in the nude for the nude scene, so

28:17

they brought on her understudy, and Tony

28:20

and Peter didn't want to be

28:22

recorded. So Tony did the

28:24

entire performance, doing

28:27

an impersonation of Larry Olivier, and

28:30

he said, and Peter changed

28:32

the dialect and made him a boy from the North

28:35

Country and completely changed everything. And

28:37

he said, the performance that's recorded for posterity

28:39

and Lincoln cetera, he said, it isn't at all

28:42

the one from the production. Then he took a long pause

28:44

and looked at me and said, naughty boys,

28:47

very naughty boys. And

28:49

sure enough I go see it and

28:52

there's Tony saying all his

28:54

lines like this and this and this

28:57

this, and doing Olivier.

28:59

Of course, anyway I would find myself

29:02

in my acting, I thought, My God,

29:04

who was in my head? Like I'm

29:06

trying to channel, Like I think I'm

29:08

getting tricked into doing a voice

29:11

here, my oh, my gable and

29:13

my brand. Oh what there is something beating

29:15

on the door in my head that I gotta get rid of and just

29:18

try to make it, make it my own. But

29:20

when you arrive, I want to get to Kubrick

29:24

when you arrive on the set to shoot that from

29:26

how you read Burgess's book. Stanley

29:29

called me up and I was shooting out

29:31

in Bournwood with Brown Forbes. So I

29:34

was going out close to his house. He lived

29:36

out there. He said, would I come

29:39

me to him a lunchtime? I'm

29:41

sure? So I

29:43

went to see him with He was, you

29:46

know, very pleasant, very

29:48

nice, and all the rest of it, but just chit

29:51

chat, you know. And at the end, I

29:53

said, look, Stanley, I've got to get back, I've

29:56

got to get into makeup. But it

29:58

was there anything you particularly to talk

30:00

to me about? Thrilled Scott to

30:02

meet you, and he

30:04

said, yeah, there's a book I'm thinking

30:07

And they said, oh, WA's the

30:09

book? And I could see he didn't

30:11

want to tell me. I mean, you know, I'm

30:14

I'm the one who's going to be starring in this movie. And

30:16

he didn't even want to tell me what

30:18

the book was called. That was just

30:20

his nature, you know, that was just

30:23

the way he was. And

30:26

he said, read the book? Have you

30:28

heard of it? I went no. He went, really, it's

30:30

a cult book. I went, no, sorry,

30:33

he said, read it and call me. So

30:36

I started reading this book and I found it a real

30:38

struggle to get through the first

30:40

time, and I thought, oh my god,

30:43

they can't make a film of this. I mean, how they're

30:45

gonna do. And then I read it again

30:48

and the words, the language became

30:50

a little more glossary. Yeah,

30:52

going the first time you read it, you got to go back to the glossary

30:55

yeah, all the time. But I felt

30:57

that I knew it pretty well, and

30:59

I said to myself, Holy

31:01

god, this could be an amazing

31:04

movie. I mean, forget the Cubrick

31:07

element, just on the

31:09

book. And then I read it a third

31:11

time before I called it,

31:14

and this time I

31:16

knew that this was

31:19

one hell of a part. So

31:22

I called him. I said, I read that

31:24

book. Now there's a week had gone past. He

31:26

thought I was going to call him the next day,

31:29

and he goes, well, I

31:31

said, look, I was very thorough. I read it three

31:33

times. I wanted to make sure that when

31:35

I spoke to you, I could do so

31:38

with a certain amount of command of the material.

31:41

Now, in the meantime, I

31:43

had met in home. I

31:45

said I and God, how nice. I hadn't seen

31:47

him for years. He said, what are you doing?

31:50

Well, I'm doing this thing. But Stanley

31:52

Kubrick, you know, and I saw

31:54

him kind of. I said, what he

31:56

goes? Watch that bastard. I

31:59

went, really, what what he goes? That

32:01

son of a bit offered me Napoleon, he

32:03

said. I was out to his house for eighteen

32:06

months. I was the best friends of

32:08

the family, the whole deal. And then suddenly

32:10

I couldn't get him on the phone. I

32:12

went, oh my god, you're kidding. So

32:15

when I had this call with Gubrick,

32:19

I had this information because it happened

32:21

just a couple of days before. So

32:23

I said to Stanley, are you offering

32:26

me the part? And there was

32:28

a silence and he

32:30

said, yeah, wait

32:32

what Yeah?

32:37

Because I didn't really I was a young kid. I

32:39

didn't know that. You don't ask great directors

32:42

stuff like that. Let's have no ian the home

32:44

here, shall me? Yeah? Yeah,

32:49

that's the incredible Malcolm McDowell.

32:52

If you like here's the thing, don't keep

32:55

it to yourself. Tell a friend. You

32:57

can subscribe to hear the thing on the I

32:59

Heart radio app, Apple podcasts,

33:02

or wherever you get your podcasts.

33:04

When we come back, Malcolm tells us

33:06

how Alex Delarge came by his iconic

33:09

look that is cod peace over

33:12

trousers and such long

33:14

long eyelashes, and talks about

33:16

some more recent projects, playing a

33:18

serial killer in the film Yva Lenko, a

33:21

talent agent in HBO's Entourage,

33:23

and a retired orchestra conductor in

33:25

Mozart in the Jungle on Amazon.

33:28

That's all after the break. This

33:38

is here's the thing. I'm Alec Baldwin, and

33:41

today my guest is the legendary actor

33:43

Malcolm McDowell. There

33:45

are performances, whether it's

33:48

Humphrey Bogard and Treasure of Sierra Madre

33:50

Brando in Waterfront, Meryl

33:53

Streep in a variety of films

33:56

you know, great actors and things. There

33:58

are films in which you realize. I

34:01

often say, and I've learned this as

34:03

I've developed projects for me

34:05

to be in. We'll reach the point

34:07

where I feel the spirit

34:10

of the character, or the potential spirit of

34:12

the character, or the of the

34:14

piece, my fondness for the piece leave my

34:16

body and I'll say to them,

34:18

let's move on and cast someone else. We've

34:20

been talking about this fucking thing for two

34:22

years now, and I realized

34:25

there's very rarely, almost

34:27

never one actor who

34:29

can play a part, and of

34:31

course you are the

34:33

one actor who could play that

34:36

part one of the greatest, most

34:38

iconic performances. When

34:40

you first saw that movie, when he screened

34:43

that movie for you, how did you feel? In

34:46

total shock? You know. It wasn't

34:48

until later that I realized

34:51

that really it wasn't just the

34:53

performance. It was a collaboration

34:56

with all of it, all of it, I mean

34:58

obviously, and you know, people go, do

35:00

you like him? And I go, have you

35:02

seen the performance? Have

35:04

you seen the film? I loved

35:07

him? Are you kidding me? It's

35:09

one of the great love affairs between

35:11

an actor and director. I mean, of

35:14

course I'd take the piss out of him.

35:16

The thing was, he never understood

35:19

like I did, because I had had Lindsey

35:21

Anderson. He never really bothered

35:24

about performance, about

35:26

how a scene would progress, you

35:29

know, like a graph on a patient's

35:32

bed, you know, and you know, so

35:34

that you come on here and you

35:36

lay back here like music, like

35:38

like music exactly. He'd say,

35:41

I need more from you here, Malc. I mean, that's that's

35:43

boring. I went, good. Boring

35:46

is good here give him my time to get

35:48

that breath. Yes.

35:51

Now, the response to the film, I mean, the

35:53

film is I

35:55

was joking say now that that clockwork

35:58

orange is actually tearing Tino's

36:00

first film. You know,

36:02

we've gone so much further. But back

36:04

then people were really really overwhelmed

36:07

by this film. Oh my god, I mean they

36:09

did, and there was so much there was so much controversy.

36:11

How did you handle that with a sort

36:13

of amusement, you know, I

36:16

mean, for whatever. You

36:18

know, the film is very complex,

36:20

as you know, and it's about many things,

36:23

mainly the freedom of

36:25

man to choose and

36:28

to choose whether he becomes an immoral

36:30

man or immoral one. But it's choice,

36:33

and that's what Burgess is saying basically.

36:36

Of course, you know, he's put it

36:38

in the most incredible settings and

36:40

all the rest of it with wonderful language.

36:42

And but you know, let me just

36:44

tell you. So, I'm standing outside

36:47

getting in my car after having dinner

36:49

with Stanley. This is before we should and

36:52

we're just chit chatting and he said, I'm

36:55

going, yeah, what are we going to wear? He goes, I

36:58

don't know, what have you got? I

37:00

mean, what have I got? As it standard

37:02

this is a futuristic movie, isn't

37:04

it. I mean, we're in the future here. What

37:06

do you think I've got something in

37:08

my you know, in my wardrobe

37:11

that's sort of gonna be gonna

37:13

fit that. I went, the only thing I've got in

37:15

the car is my cricket gear. And

37:18

he goes, well, let me see it. I

37:20

mean really, So I get out

37:22

my cricket white and he goes, and what's

37:24

that And went, well, that's a protector.

37:27

He goes, wear it on the outside, that's

37:30

what it's. Yes,

37:33

yes, yes. And

37:35

then I found a yard of eyelash

37:38

at the bus store, so I bought

37:40

that as fun to show him. It was

37:42

this long, you know this, It was great. And

37:45

when I gave it to me said, oh, that's great, and

37:47

he looked at it, looked at me, and he goes, put

37:50

it on. I went, really,

37:52

I'm the thing I know how to. So we got, you

37:55

know, glued. He took pictures and

37:57

the next day he called me he said, one

38:00

eyelashes great because you see your

38:02

face and you know there's something

38:04

wrong, but you don't know what it is. I

38:07

went, okay, great, And that's

38:09

how that all came into being. That shot

38:11

at the milk bar is like an eyelash commercial

38:14

started on your face and they pulled

38:17

back, pulled back on you and your mates there.

38:19

Now Clockwork also, it's

38:22

not like it's a star studied

38:24

cast now in terms of

38:26

like many Hollywood films, and yet it's filled

38:28

with unforgettable performances. There

38:31

are actors in this film. I want to just go say

38:33

that when you watch Clockwork Orange Aubrey

38:36

Marris. I can't believe you just said that.

38:39

Aubrey Marris. I

38:41

mean if you knew how much the guy had

38:43

gotten into my vascular system

38:46

for years after, I would turn to my friends,

38:48

we would just do Aubrey Morris, regardless

38:51

of the context. I look at my friends

38:53

and say, as you didn't want to go downtown

38:55

and ev dinner, yes town

38:59

and need something near I is, we

39:02

would just do Aubrey Mars. It worked anywhere,

39:05

anywhere where you wanted to have like like a

39:07

tinge of confrontation with someone. Philip

39:09

Stone I cost

39:11

him because he was doing Lindsay

39:14

Anderson play and I love

39:16

Philip and I told Cubrick he's

39:18

got to play my dad. So he

39:20

had a man and went, oh yeah, and then he

39:23

he did also that he was in The Shining

39:25

too. Now, who's the guy that that played the

39:27

border that live with your parents with

39:29

that great scene when you come home? Brilliant

39:32

prive Francis. Joe, Yes,

39:35

what you love is Philip

39:38

Stone is such a great actor. Just the pain.

39:40

Oh he turns to you and says, well,

39:43

that's Joe. Yeah, that's Joe,

39:48

and then mom stocks that's

39:51

all right, I love It's all right. Now

39:55

let me ask you this before we get to other later

39:57

things. Who the fuck direct

40:00

did caligulate? Was there a director?

40:02

Oh? Yes, there was a director,

40:05

and he was an extraordinary

40:07

man, actually very radical.

40:09

The problem is, of course that the man

40:12

paying for it was Guccioni,

40:14

who thought that he had,

40:17

you know, great taste and all the rest of it.

40:19

That's debatable, I mean, but in the

40:21

end of the day, of course he did put up the money,

40:24

but he put it up because of Gore sold

40:26

it to him. The fact is, when

40:28

I read Gorvidal script, I thought it was

40:31

really rather amateurish,

40:33

right, And you're referring to Tinto

40:35

Brose, Yeah, tinto Browse. Yeah.

40:38

Now, in more recent years, what

40:41

is something you've done that really excited

40:43

you, that you were really really. Oh, I played

40:46

this some amazing serial

40:48

killer in Russia and Soviet Union.

40:51

It's called Eva Lenko Evil

40:53

with Enko on the end iv

40:55

Lenko. That was an amazing thing because

40:58

I didn't really want to do it, but

41:00

it was a friend of mine and I had urged

41:02

him to write the script, then urged

41:05

him to direct it, and through

41:08

some extraordinary piece of luck,

41:10

he actually got the money. And I

41:12

went when they called me, he

41:14

goes, mob, we're shooting. I

41:16

have the money. I went, what, No,

41:19

really, well, I think I'm busy

41:22

then, oh my god. So

41:25

anyway, it was amazing really

41:27

to be faced with this

41:30

person who I despised and

41:32

was a not only a pedophile,

41:35

serial killer cannibal. I

41:37

mean you, I mean, just add

41:39

anything on this one. So how

41:41

to play through that

41:43

minefield was so exciting. It

41:46

was interesting that I realized I'm gonna

41:48

have to do a Larry Olivier

41:51

on this one and just find

41:53

an external thing to

41:55

take me through. And that's how I did

41:57

it. It was really interesting. But anyway, I

42:00

like the television, you know that Mocha

42:03

in the Jungle. I had fun doing that, had

42:05

a lot of fun doing Entourage, you

42:08

know, and I love taking the piss

42:10

out of Piven, you know who would Now

42:14

I'm gonna finish with this. You know,

42:17

I'll never forget. Some people accuse

42:19

me of hitting the appreciation button too

42:21

heavy handedly, but I can't help it.

42:23

When I did the movie Hunt for Red October, they had

42:26

cast Sean Connery and then he got sick and

42:28

he had all kinds of throat problems and they said, uh,

42:31

they said, he's not coming and uh when

42:33

I when I arrived to work, they said to start

42:35

rehearsing days. I didn't even know they had courted

42:38

him. And they said, well, so and so, and

42:40

I'll be kind and I won't mention who's so and so.

42:42

Another famous European actor is going to play the part.

42:45

Yeah, And then they get a phone call from

42:47

Sean's agents said, Sean's better, he's

42:49

feeling better and he's ready to come back to

42:51

work. So Paramount, which I think has

42:54

a certain gift in this department, they

42:56

call up the other actor and they said, now, what were the dates

42:59

you said, we're a hard no

43:01

that you're gonna be directing this other project of yours.

43:04

You said there were dates that you couldn't

43:06

shoot with us because you must be on

43:08

this set somewhere in Europe, and you must be doing

43:10

this thing. And he gives the dates and they were too

43:13

bad because we had to move

43:15

the schedule to exactly those days. Those are

43:17

exactly the dates that

43:19

we're going to be shooting now. We're so sorry,

43:22

and thank you and best of luck to

43:24

you, goodbye, And they got rid of him, and they

43:26

turned to me and they said, Sean is back. And I was so

43:28

excited because I love Sean. But as John

43:30

mcteeren and the director explained this toll to

43:32

me, I said to myself like, go, you

43:34

know, I was just a ghast and how Hollywood

43:36

really worked on that level and these were top tier

43:39

people. And my friend turned

43:41

to me and he goes, he goes, God didn't

43:43

want that guy to play the lead role in the movie.

43:46

God wanted Sean to play the lead

43:48

role in that movie. It's what God wanted.

43:51

Yeah, And I look at you, and

43:54

I look at you and I go, God wanted

43:56

you to play Alex de Large.

43:58

He didn't want any but else to play that part.

44:01

You had to play that part. And

44:03

when you look back at that, did you ever

44:05

imagine that it would be that indelible

44:08

with other actors. No, but

44:10

I knew that I was doing

44:13

something which I which

44:15

probably was new territory

44:18

certainly for me, but you know, to be

44:20

out there, I had decided

44:23

to play it with a style

44:26

my influences, if

44:28

you can call him that, besides of course always

44:30

Jimmy Cagney always, but Olivier

44:33

doing Richard three. And also

44:36

the language which is of course Shakespearean.

44:39

So that was all easy. It was

44:42

difficult to find, you know, the

44:44

style exactly. But

44:47

there again it was Lindsay Anderson who gave

44:49

me the key because when I

44:51

said Lindsey, I suddenly

44:53

panicked. You know, I've got a week ago.

44:56

I've been with cubric for eight months and

44:58

he hasn't once to about the character.

45:01

And I said, well, what do you think? And he goes, that's

45:03

why I cast you, Okay, that's

45:05

why I don't talk about that. I

45:08

went, oh, excuse me, I

45:10

thought you were the fucking director. Stanley

45:14

is brilliant thinking on his feet,

45:16

and if he sees that the movies not

45:19

going down the path that he thought it was,

45:22

he would swing and go another way.

45:24

You know. Listen, um. When I

45:26

came up with Singing in the Rain, he

45:28

changed the whole thing about that being

45:31

the key, you know, singing in the

45:33

rain is the key to how

45:35

they discover him and all the rest of

45:38

it. But you know, I knew working

45:40

on it that something magical

45:43

was sort of happening, but I didn't really

45:46

want to dissect it because I go

45:48

away. You know, it was an instinct. You know what

45:50

it's like when you're in the zone.

45:53

Yeah, you're in the zone, and

45:55

so it doesn't matter what they do.

45:58

There were certain ad libs, but I didn't

46:00

had lived very much. But you

46:02

know, for instance, at the end, when

46:04

the minister is cutting up

46:06

my steak, now he has this

46:09

long speech which basically wraps

46:11

up the movie, and I could see out

46:13

of my periphery vision Stanley

46:15

was bored, and I

46:18

knew he would start cutting,

46:20

you know, so to hurry

46:22

the actor up, I just sort of

46:24

went, yeah, yeah, exactly, I

46:27

know what you did. We all

46:29

know what you did, okay. But

46:32

the reason was I wanted to hurry

46:34

his ass up, you know, because otherwise

46:36

he was gonna lose his faith. It's a metronome.

46:39

And I saw Stanley stick a handkerchief

46:41

in his mouth and turn away,

46:44

and I saw him heaving shoulders,

46:47

and he was so and

46:49

tears were streaming down. It

46:52

was laughing. So you knew what Stanley

46:54

wanted the other actors to do as well, and

46:56

tried your best to provoke that. Let

46:59

me just ask one question, which is as much

47:01

as the part is this seminal

47:04

role. It's one of the greatest acting roles

47:06

in film history ever, ever, ever,

47:09

You are so indelible. I

47:11

have all of Kubrick's library downloaded on my

47:14

computer and sometimes I can't watch it because it's such

47:16

a rich meal, you know what I mean, Because you gotta what, you

47:18

gotta eat, the whole thing, whole, you know, I mean, yeah, I know. But

47:20

but have you as much as you've loved it and benefited

47:23

from it, did you ever hate it as well? Oh?

47:25

I did. For the first ten

47:27

years. I was so sick of it, and

47:29

you know, they wanted me to just play the same part

47:31

over and over, and I

47:34

kept walking away from those But

47:36

then I suddenly realized, what the hell

47:38

am I doing? It's made my life

47:40

transform my life? Are you kidding?

47:43

I should get down on my knees and say thank you

47:45

all the time, which I do now. And

47:47

you know, I sort of remember I can go

47:50

back to the actual set

47:53

and the actual feeling of you

47:55

know, talking to Stanley and I was

47:57

basically all the time. It was my job

48:00

just to tease it. And a

48:03

lot of it is you know a lot of my

48:05

relationship with him is me

48:08

just pulling his leg alot. You know, Well,

48:10

everybody wants to make a

48:12

great film, and you want the work

48:15

that you do to contribute

48:17

to what makes it great, and those

48:19

chances and if you make more than one great when if

48:21

you'r Hanks or someone like that who's made

48:23

who is acting has driven Spencer Tracy,

48:26

all the greats, Bogart Brandon, people who they're

48:28

the Nicholson of course, where the power

48:30

of their acting has made the film's great films.

48:33

The thing is that what you benefit

48:35

from you you almost it's almost impossible to get

48:38

there if you don't have the script and the director,

48:40

and you were the great fortune of having

48:42

the script, and you're the great fortune of having

48:45

the director, but they had

48:47

the great fortune of having you.

48:50

It really is one of the twenty

48:53

five greatest film

48:55

acting performances in history. I mean

48:57

you just when you watch it, you go, oh my god,

48:59

look at this fucking guy. It's like you

49:01

think you're gonna fly through the roof and

49:03

to stink off like a rocket through the fucking

49:06

roof of the set. You know, I mean, that's how alive

49:08

you are. You're the most alive performance

49:11

I've ever seen in my life ever. Thank you,

49:13

My love to you, and thanks for doing this with me,

49:15

Alec, you know how much I love you, my friend,

49:18

you too. All the bust, the

49:22

unforgettable Malcolm McDowell. He's

49:25

still hard at work and celebrating

49:27

the fiftieth anniversary of his

49:30

career making role in A Clockwork

49:32

Orange. If you haven't seen it lately,

49:34

or you haven't seen it at all, I recommend

49:37

you don't delay. I'm Alec

49:39

Baldwin. Here's the thing. Is brought to you by

49:41

my Heart Radio. We're produced

49:44

by Kathleen Russo, Sarah Evry

49:46

and Carrie Donohue. Our editor

49:48

is Zach McNeice with help from Justin

49:50

Wright, and our engineer is Frank

49:53

Imperial. Four