0:03

I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening

0:05

to Here's the thing. The president's

0:08

legacy is shaped in part by images.

0:11

So our great grandchildren's idea

0:13

of President Obama will be shaped

0:16

by the eye of Pete Susa. For

0:21

a certain set of Americans, it's easy

0:24

to conjure his most famous

0:26

shots Sasha hiding

0:28

behind the couch in the Oval Office, the

0:30

President running down a bright East

0:32

Wing hallway with Bow as a

0:34

puppy, the situation room during

0:37

the killing of Osama Bin Lawton.

0:42

Pete Susa has had a resurgence

0:45

of fame thanks to his funny,

0:47

sad, and undeniably pointed

0:49

Instagram posts. He

0:55

juxtaposes shots of the ex president

0:58

with the latest Trump news. When

1:00

the Muslim band was announced, Susa

1:02

posted a picture of Obama

1:04

laughing with a young girl in a head job.

1:07

When Trump refused to shake Angela

1:09

Merkel's hand, Obama showed up

1:11

on Susan's Instagram feed, embracing

1:14

her. These and other posts

1:16

have earned Susa a huge fan

1:18

base, two million followers, and

1:20

one of the best selling photography books of

1:22

all time. But

1:27

despite his association with Obama,

1:30

his first White House photographer job

1:32

was with a very different President Ronald

1:35

Reagan. We moved to DC, win

1:37

I'm moved to DC and

1:40

Michael Evans was the chief photographer

1:42

then and you came on when he

1:44

was with Reagan and you were part of a staff of

1:47

people. What in your mind has changed

1:49

in terms of people's relationship to a camera

1:51

now that cameras are ubiquitous it in everybody's

1:54

pocket. Well, I think what it does is

1:56

I think every person now

1:59

thanks that no matter what they're doing, it

2:01

might appear on the internet somewhere. Maybe

2:04

they're more suspicious now of

2:07

you know, how they act and the

2:09

gestures they make when you were working

2:12

with that group of when I was working with that group of people.

2:15

By the time I came in during Reagan Um,

2:18

people were not phased by me

2:21

being in the room taking pictures. People

2:23

just went about their business. But it was much more cumbersome

2:25

the process, relatively speaking back then, you're

2:27

loading film into a camera. Was lighting an issue,

2:30

the sensitivity of the lenses. I don't know

2:32

that it was more cumbersome. Yes,

2:34

you've got to carry extra roles of film

2:36

in your pocket. That may be the only

2:39

combersame part about it is you gotta

2:41

lower every once in a while, you have to light Reagan differently

2:43

than and and and both

2:45

instances. I'm trying

2:47

to do almost everything available light

2:50

and never never doing anything with lighting

2:53

is the first thing you said to yourself when you're in the Oval Office.

2:55

That's examining available light situation.

2:58

Of course, of course they have good available They

3:00

have good available light in the Oval Office, but not

3:02

in like the Situation room or

3:05

the Roosevelt Room, you know some of sometimes

3:07

some of those rooms are not lit very well. And

3:11

yeah, and from a photographer's standpoint, it's

3:13

like ship, I don't want to be I

3:16

don't wanna have to spend a lot of time in this room

3:18

because the lighting sucks. But the

3:20

Oval Office. The other thing is great about

3:22

the Oval Office is the

3:25

lighting in there would change depending on the time

3:27

of the year. And like, for instance,

3:29

when the leaves dropped off the trees and

3:32

and the sun was lower on the horizon,

3:34

you'd get this incredible light at

3:37

different hours of the day. Yeah,

3:39

and and and it would it would only be there

3:42

during you know, like December, January, February,

3:45

and then the sun gets higher and

3:47

you're not getting any any direct light

3:49

into the Oval Office. Then it becomes

3:51

more flatter. So I was always looking

3:54

forward to the winter months for the lighting

3:56

reasons. In your childhood

3:59

and your earliest collections, what

4:01

was the first time you had your hands on a camera. I

4:03

did not really take

4:05

pictures until

4:07

I was a junior in college. Um,

4:10

but here's the thing that, you know, you sort

4:13

of go back to your childhood and you to think about things

4:16

that maybe you did have an interest and you just didn't

4:18

even realize it. In nineties

4:20

sixty five, my parents

4:23

took me and my sister to Washington, d

4:25

C. And we did all the tourist

4:27

stuff, and there was this book called

4:29

The Living White House that we got, which

4:32

was like all the rooms in the White House, they

4:34

are all these color photographs, was put

4:36

together by National Geographic and

4:39

there are some candid pictures of LBJ

4:42

in there. I just thought it was

4:44

the coolest book I've ever seen. And

4:47

I used to look at that book all

4:49

the time. I mean, it's still at my mother's

4:51

house. And so there was something

4:53

in the back of my mind that the whole

4:56

White House thing really appeal

4:58

to me. When you were young, oh not

5:00

at all, not at all. You

5:02

went to be you. I went to be you you

5:04

were studying journalism. I was, I wanted

5:07

to become a sportswriter. And then you went to Kansas

5:10

when the Kansas State University

5:12

for graduate work because they offered me

5:14

a teaching assistantship and photography.

5:16

But it turns out the best thing about Kansas

5:19

State for me was

5:21

they had a great daily newspaper, college

5:24

newspaper, but they behaved as

5:26

if they were, you know, a real newspaper

5:28

doing real journalism. So I started

5:31

working for the college newspaper.

5:33

So the first time you use a camera to take pictures

5:36

as your junior year of college, yeah, it's

5:38

a very quick hop from you

5:40

picking up the camera for the first time to

5:43

you teaching photography. I fooled

5:45

a lot of that. I tell you about

5:48

that. Well. I mean people

5:50

think, oh, you graduated from Boston University.

5:53

You know, that's a that's a big time school,

5:56

and um, you know, they

5:58

thought that I knew what I was doing and

6:01

I was still learning, but I knew the basics

6:04

of photography, and so I was teaching a basic

6:06

photography class at Case State. When you pick

6:08

up the camera for the first time would be what about

6:10

it? Did you say to me? It was magic?

6:13

Shooting a roll of film, the whole

6:15

business of putting rolling that

6:17

film up onto the real in

6:20

the dark, and as you're shaking

6:22

the tray, the image starts

6:24

to appear on the paper, and

6:27

I was like, this is what I want to do.

6:30

You're in control from

6:32

start to finish. You're the only

6:34

one involved in making the picture,

6:37

in developing the picture, and then in printing

6:39

the picture. And what did you like to shoot back then, probably

6:42

trying to do something with musicians. I

6:45

was not very good

6:47

at first about photographing

6:49

people. I was very shy,

6:52

and it was being

6:54

so being shy affected how it

6:56

was like sort of like to me. It was it

6:58

was hard to relate to pe bowl when explain

7:01

to them why I wanted to photograph them, and

7:03

I was self conscious about it. And

7:06

that was the biggest hurdle across knowing

7:09

how to deal with people in a way

7:12

that they would be comfortable to allow

7:14

you to be in the room while you're taking photos.

7:16

Did you identify right away that was an important

7:18

component that you needed to make people feel comfortable to

7:20

photograph them. I needed to

7:22

make myself feel comfortable to be there.

7:25

And the kind of photography that I was doing

7:28

was not. Um.

7:30

I mean, my guess is when when you're a photographed,

7:33

it's a photographer that wants to do a portrait

7:35

of you and put you in a setting

7:38

and there's lights involves sometimes or they're

7:40

they're directing you a little bit, and

7:42

the photography that I wanted to do is fly on

7:44

the wall stuff I wanted I love, which

7:46

I've tried to turn my portrait photography

7:49

into that. I say, please, don't make me stand here

7:52

and find some pos like you're

7:54

painting me. I would every

7:56

time I work with a photographer say let's

7:58

talk, tell me a story about you, or

8:00

I'll tell you a story about me, and then I'll stop.

8:03

I have the sense to stop talking.

8:06

But I'm still that pot still

8:08

simmering of where we're adam terms of what we're

8:10

discussing. So I'm distracted from my own self

8:13

consciousness. I need to take my mind off the

8:15

fact that we're taking my picture

8:18

because I hate having my picture taking and

8:21

so do I I mean the you do

8:23

yeah, oh yeah, I can't. I

8:25

don't. I don't like the way I look, you know. But

8:28

um, but for me, it was it was take what

8:31

you're saying a step further. Uh,

8:34

I didn't. I didn't want to do a portrait at all. I

8:36

wanted to be I mean, one of the first

8:38

projects I did when I was just starting out

8:40

at BEU was there

8:43

was this dance class. Older people participating

8:45

in this dance class, and I just

8:48

kept going back and every day I would

8:50

go there to photograph because I wanted

8:52

to just sort of just like get the essence of

8:55

what was happening there, not a it

8:57

wasn't a big subject at the time, but for

8:59

me learning how to do photography,

9:02

this was a good situation to be in where

9:04

people eventually didn't care that I was there, that I

9:06

was taking pictures. I could get close

9:08

to them, I could get whatever anal I wanted.

9:11

So it's sort of like a learning experience of

9:14

you know, just do and fly on the wall pictures.

9:17

To when you've done in Kansas, where do you go? So

9:20

I've done at Kansas State and

9:22

I end up working for two small

9:24

newspapers in Kansas, which was a

9:27

great training ground. Well, I just stay

9:29

in Kansas because it was a job there for you. You liked

9:31

Kansas mostly because

9:34

there was a job. One of my

9:36

friends used to joke with me because One of

9:38

the newspapers I worked for, the

9:40

Chinook Tribune, had a circulation of six

9:42

thousand. The town

9:45

was maybe fifteen thousand. It

9:47

was an afternoon newspaper, and one

9:49

of my friends used to joke, if a dog

9:51

crosses the street in the middle of the day, it might

9:53

end up on page one because there was

9:55

not that much happening town small

9:58

town. But it was a really great raining

10:01

to be to every day

10:03

have to go out and you'd have to

10:05

come up with a page one photo, a

10:07

sports photo, and a business photo.

10:09

Every single day. I was

10:11

the I was it. I was

10:13

it And that is probably

10:15

the most pressure I've ever had in my life to

10:18

do that every day. Um,

10:20

but it was just a great training round because

10:23

you how when what did it force you?

10:25

To force you to take the

10:27

most mundane situation and

10:30

try to make an interesting photo

10:32

that when it's in print, people

10:34

are gonna look at and want to read the caption

10:37

and maybe learn something new every

10:40

day. I can't say that I succeeded

10:42

every day, but I tried, and it meant a lot

10:44

to me the one year of that then and then

10:46

I went to the Chicago

10:48

Sun Times. Uh So I went

10:50

from a six thousand circulation daily newspaper

10:53

to SIDS and

10:56

um. It was one of those uh you know,

10:59

somebody recommend me for the job and I ended

11:01

up getting it. And which

11:03

which specific job? Sports? Uh

11:06

so general assignment photographers. I did

11:08

a lot of sports news, features, whatever.

11:11

And it was basically taking exactly

11:13

what I did at the small newspaper

11:16

in Kansas and trying to apply that to the big stity

11:18

like a kid in the candy store. Oh my god. It

11:20

was so much fun. Yeah, like covering

11:23

big time sports, big

11:25

time news. You know, there was the

11:27

Mafia was really big then and Chicago

11:30

and that was that was a component. Pete

11:33

to me a favor. I want you to photograph me

11:36

on my left side. Okay, that's my good side,

11:38

right. I don't want to ask you again, Peter, don't

11:41

take a picture of me on my right side. All right? We

11:43

had no problem with you. I gotta I gotta say

11:45

you got the Chicago accident down pretty might sometimes

11:48

for how long? So sometimes

11:50

not very long. So see, I

11:53

think I went there in December of eighty one and

11:55

I left in June of eighty

11:57

three because I got this call from Michael

12:00

Evan. Now wouldn't did Evans explain

12:02

to you? Did he offer any insights

12:04

into why he called you? He knew your work,

12:07

could you had you wont awards for your photography.

12:10

He happened to have a photo editor

12:12

working for him, White House photo editor, who

12:16

I knew and had been following my

12:18

career. And they're looking for people

12:21

they think are hot. They're looking for they were looking

12:23

for one person. I sort of fit the bill,

12:25

and you know, my portfolio

12:28

then was pretty good. I had one some

12:30

award in Chicago, like Chicago Fire

12:33

for the Year or something like that, So I

12:35

had gotten some attention in the industry

12:37

photojournalism. It's a pretty small community.

12:40

You serve no everybody, And based on

12:42

the photo editors recommendation, Michael

12:45

brought me in for an interview and you know,

12:47

offered me the job. Presidents from

12:49

Johnson on chose their

12:51

own photographer. Doesn't have to meet Reagan

12:54

in order to get pass must not. It

12:56

was Michael. Michael made the call. I

12:58

think I met Mike Deeve, who was

13:01

then deputy chief of staff and was sort of

13:03

overseeing the advance office and the

13:06

press office and stuff like that. So I think I did

13:09

talk the diver beforehand. But it was up

13:11

Michael made the decision. Were

13:13

there ever moments of kind of wistfulness when you

13:15

missed the range of what you got to do

13:17

before basketball and mafiosa

13:20

and everything, You've got to do pretty much what you wanted. Did

13:23

you feel a little bit after some amount of time

13:25

it was a limitation to it, or you never felt that way when

13:27

you were in the White House. I was conflicted. I mean

13:29

I was even conflicted when they offered me the job,

13:32

because I was thinking, well, do I really want

13:34

to do this. I was not a fan of

13:36

Reagan's. Things were going

13:38

really well in Chicago, so

13:40

it's a tough decision to make. But help

13:43

what helped me make the decision was what

13:46

what you You always hope is that you're

13:49

making pictures for history and

13:52

if you're in the White House, But

13:54

there there were times when I really

13:56

wished I was, you know, back

13:59

in Chicago. Yeah, we're

14:01

shooting Reagan different from Obama beyond

14:03

their personal I mean, the one guy's a movie star.

14:06

Yeah. I mean every once in a

14:08

while with Reagan, um,

14:11

he'd be in the middle of the meeting and he'd he'd

14:13

like see you taking pictures and like wink at you

14:15

or something like that. And

14:17

with President Obama, it was like he would

14:20

forget that I would be even be in the room

14:22

because so. But but it was a different

14:24

circumstance in that I didn't have any

14:27

kind of relationship with Reagan coming in. I didn't

14:29

know him at all. I'd never met him.

14:31

Uh, And I didn't feel like I was totally

14:35

immersed in the

14:37

Reagan White House the way I was with

14:40

President Obama. Why

14:42

because um,

14:45

I knew President Obama for

14:47

four years before he was elected to

14:49

the presidency, already had established

14:52

a professional relationship

14:54

with him. Plus I came

14:56

in as the you know, the chief photographer,

14:59

So this was gonna. I was all in with him

15:02

for forgetting about, you know, your feelings

15:04

about the person. Politically, I don't want

15:06

to do the podcast with somebody who I don't

15:08

have some degree of either admiration

15:11

for or interest in. UM.

15:14

I respected Ronald Reagan, and

15:16

I think he respected the office of the presidency.

15:19

And I think because of that, I

15:21

was able to say to myself,

15:23

this, it's worthy for me to be here. Were

15:26

there ever any episodes they were difficult

15:28

for you? I mean, um,

15:31

I always looked at it is I wasn't trying

15:33

to glorify him. I was trying to, you know,

15:35

accurately, honestly portray what

15:38

was happening. Um.

15:40

But you know, certainly during the Iran

15:42

Contra affair, there are

15:44

a lot of pictures

15:46

that I made that were, um,

15:49

where he was, you know, definitely down in the dumps

15:52

and uh, not looking good

15:54

and sort of agonizing of what

15:56

he did, what he didn't do. And

15:59

the world. You know, your younger

16:01

listeners won't remember this at all,

16:03

but back in nineteen eighties

16:05

or the

16:08

world was this is

16:11

it was on cable TV,

16:14

on CNN. I don't think there's Yeah,

16:17

it was a big scandal,

16:20

and I was right,

16:22

and I was on the inside, and it was

16:24

a weird place to be

16:26

because even though his

16:29

days were occupied with

16:32

other issues that were coming up, you still

16:34

have to deal with the economy and

16:37

and he's having meetings on things that have nothing

16:39

to do with her on Contra. That's

16:41

still hanging over.

16:43

It's in the air every single day,

16:47

like like like describe when is the White

16:49

House photographer welcome and allowed and when

16:51

is he not? I think it differs

16:53

in every administration. Let's

16:56

go back to Reagan, because I didn't have

16:59

relationship estab wished with him.

17:01

Uh, you know, I would push for as much

17:03

access as I could, but it

17:06

but it wasn't the same as with President

17:08

Obama at all. I mean I had

17:10

total access with President Obama in

17:14

a way that I didn't with President Reagan. So Jeff

17:16

Salmy mentioned to one of my producers that Obama

17:19

was curious about Reagan

17:21

and asked you questions about Reagan. Yeah, he knew

17:23

I had worked for President Reagan. I

17:25

said to him that I wasn't didn't

17:27

have the same kind of access with Reagan as I

17:30

did with him. And he said,

17:32

well, what was he like? I said, well, to just

17:34

be diplomatic about it, he was sort of a

17:36

big picture president, and

17:39

President Obama said, I want to be a big picture

17:41

president. Former

17:43

White House photographer Pete Susa. If

17:46

you're hungry for more from inside the

17:48

Obama White House, check out my

17:50

interview with former Secretary of the Army

17:53

Eric Fanning. My job is to

17:55

oversee the army. The army budget is over a hundred

17:58

forty billion dollars a year. Do you think we still

18:00

afford to be a global power in the coming years.

18:02

I think we can, but I think we need to think more

18:04

creatively about it, as President Obama has been trying

18:07

to do. There are such as to what we can spend

18:09

and recognizing as he

18:12

does, that national security is more than

18:14

just the military. Uh it's it's

18:16

a whole combination of things across

18:18

the entire federal budget. There has to be some balance

18:20

there. The rest of that

18:22

conversation that here's the thing

18:25

dot or org. When

18:27

we return, Pete Susa tells

18:29

more tales about Obama from

18:32

inside the White House and beyond, and

18:34

whether he'd agree to take on the challenge

18:36

of the Trump White House political

18:39

differences aside. I'm

18:41

Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's

18:43

the Thing. I'm

18:52

Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's

18:54

the Thing. Now more with photographer

18:57

Pete Susa. You first met Obama

18:59

ware? I first met Obama

19:03

his first day in the U. S. Senate. Uh

19:07

So. I was working for the Chicago Tribune

19:09

then based in Washington,

19:12

and he's Ben, a Chicago politician, and he covered

19:15

him no because I was in d C. But

19:18

when he's elected to the Senate in Illinois

19:21

and he comes to Washington, then it's

19:23

on, you know, my watch too to

19:26

photograph him, and so we Jeff

19:29

Zeleny was then a correspondent

19:31

in the in the Tribune Washington bureau

19:33

with me. He and I hatched this plan

19:35

to follow Obama's first year

19:38

in the Senate and UM

19:40

do four big pieces

19:42

throughout the year and got

19:45

pretty really good access to him in the Senate.

19:48

And just because of that, where you're in there every

19:50

day, Obama is doing

19:53

this, he's doing that, this is a senator, you

19:55

can sort of get to know the guy a little bit.

19:57

I met his family, UM,

20:01

and that one year kind

20:03

of turned into two years because

20:05

we started we went to Africa with him, and two

20:07

does at six again as Senator

20:10

UM. And just over time you

20:12

sort of get to know the guy. He gets to know you.

20:16

He sees that you work hard, he sees

20:18

the way you work trying not to interfere

20:20

with what he's doing. So I think he appreciates

20:23

that you get it. He says that I

20:25

get it, which is funny because that's very similar to a set

20:27

photographer in the movies where

20:29

someone is obtrusive and where

20:31

someone is kind of they're kind of groping.

20:34

You can see them and they're finding the ideal

20:37

shop. They want you over

20:39

the person that's in the foreground and the furniture

20:41

and the painting on the wall, whatever. And I see

20:44

them moving around, I'd say to them, will

20:46

stage something for them for the rehearsal. Then you have to

20:48

go, because I only work for one camera at a

20:51

time. I will only perform for

20:53

the movie camera. And then there were those rare people,

20:56

like one out of ten they were ninja,

20:58

and they would get all these pictures and I need even though they were

21:00

there. Is that kind of how he felt towards you. Yeah,

21:02

and I and and he says that in the introduction.

21:04

I mean, I like the term ninja. I

21:06

think maybe that's I start using that, uh,

21:09

because that was my thing. I think I knew how

21:11

to move around and not be a

21:13

nuisance. I could go right behind

21:15

him and show things from his perspective,

21:19

and it didn't face him a bit because he just like, forget

21:21

about me being there. A matter of fact, I got into

21:23

an argument with him one time. Uh.

21:27

He had this meeting uh scheduled

21:29

with the Schwarzenegger when he was governor

21:32

in the Oval office, and it was

21:35

it was scheduled for after lunch. Okay,

21:38

so at lunch time when he ate, i'd I'd

21:40

always go run down in my office and eat at

21:42

the same time, so I wouldn't miss anything. So

21:45

it's lunchtime, I go down my office, I eat,

21:48

I come back upstairs. Schwarzenegger's

21:50

coming out of the Oval office. They just

21:52

finished the meeting, and I'm like, what the

21:54

funk just happened? So I started,

21:56

like, you actually say it that way to the no

21:59

no, no, no, no no, I said it to his

22:01

personal sent Okay, I said,

22:03

what happened happened? This meeting was supposed

22:05

to Oh he changed it too before

22:08

lunch. I go, why the hell didn't you tell

22:10

me? By this time, he's like

22:13

listening to my conversation and he's like, what's

22:15

the problem here, And I said, Sir,

22:18

Katie forgot to tell me that

22:20

the meeting with Schwarzenegger was moved

22:22

before lunch, so I didn't get any pictures

22:24

of it. And he's like, now,

22:27

you you were in there taking pictures. I

22:29

go, sir, no, I was not in there. He goes, yeah, yeah,

22:31

you were in there taking pictures the whole time.

22:34

And I was like, I was not in

22:36

there taking pictures the whole time. I was not

22:39

in there for one second. But

22:41

he was convinced that I had been in there because he was

22:43

just so used to me being

22:45

around. I guess the president

22:47

is never coming up to you where his staff is af I coming up

22:49

to and saying, don't use that, use that, don't use that.

22:51

That's all up to you. In terms of at the White

22:53

House. At the White House, I

22:56

would be the final like

22:59

editor per se. I had photo editor that worked

23:01

with me that would uh, you

23:03

know, send me what they determined to be the best

23:05

picture. But I would always sign

23:07

off on every picture before

23:09

it went out into the public sphere

23:12

because I was the guy who had the relationship

23:14

with President Obama and I just wanted

23:16

to be you know, just careful. Um.

23:19

So it was an understanding, even unspoken, that

23:21

you were going to make them look bad, you're gonna make them look good.

23:24

The I don't say, I never know what that means,

23:27

because I think if you look

23:29

at some of this, a lot of the pictures that we

23:32

made public that I don't think

23:34

they're all about making him look good.

23:36

I mean, I've got pictures of him learning

23:39

about the tragedy and Manghazi

23:42

and Sandy Hook where he doesn't

23:44

look good, but I thought they were authentic?

23:47

Is it government property? So every

23:50

single picture that I

23:52

took is now at the National Archives. We

23:54

were not allowed to the lead a picture, Thank

23:56

you Richard Nixon, because after

23:59

Watergate nineties conference

24:02

past the Presidential Records Act that

24:04

all this material had to be saved,

24:06

and including photographs was one of them.

24:09

Not just the documents, but every photograph

24:11

had to be saved. So every single photograph

24:14

that I made is now at the National Archives.

24:16

Why do you think you never worked for a White House for

24:18

for a president in between? Because

24:21

I didn't want to, You didn't want to. You

24:23

could have pretended no, no, no no, I don't know. I mean

24:25

it's it's the odds

24:27

of someone getting

24:30

two calls to go WHEREK at the White House as

24:32

a photographer are pretty slim.

24:34

They were both accidental in

24:37

a lot of ways. I was an accidental

24:39

with Obama. I just happened to be

24:42

the Chicago Tribune and DC when

24:45

he became senator. That's

24:47

that's what launched me getting into

24:49

the White House with him. Some presidents

24:52

Bush Senior, for example, less photogenic.

24:55

Do you think that determines what kind of a photographer? Then

24:58

I feel bad for him. Because you know, he's

25:00

just he doesn't look like a very stiff in front of the

25:02

camera. Yeah, he's got the glass, the big glasses.

25:04

Is not happy being photographed, to seem

25:07

and son wasn't like that though, No, his

25:09

son. I know forty three a little

25:11

bit. I covered

25:14

his presidency from afar Uh

25:16

and he's he's actually a good photographic

25:18

subject, you know Bush,

25:22

just because just he's kind of a

25:25

jokester and you know, like to

25:27

rip people and yeah,

25:30

playful and he's a good looking guy. And

25:33

I'm wondering what it must have been like for the White

25:35

House photographer there with with Clinton. Do

25:38

you think that there's times when you just go away

25:40

and leave him alone to suffer with what he's going

25:42

through. I mean, I think this is you know I mentioned

25:44

before about Iran Contra, this is

25:46

a Ron Contra times ten. Yes. And

25:49

I was already working

25:51

for the Tribune and in d C. And

25:54

so I would go to these events as a member

25:56

of the press to cover Bill Clinton.

25:59

And he was doing something, you know, on the

26:01

environment or the economy.

26:04

It was during the impeachment crisis, and

26:07

all the news my editors, all they

26:09

wanted is a certain look from

26:11

Clinton. To go along with today's story. The

26:13

picture was going to run alongside an impeachment store.

26:15

They wanted a witherd right, and

26:18

so to be the guy on the inside.

26:20

Oh, I can't imagine what that must have been like, But

26:22

so does the president or there or the times

26:25

when they just dismiss you, they say, well,

26:27

let's not take pictures today or

26:29

this week. You know, if he's really struggling

26:32

and suffering something like that. Are they allowed to take

26:34

a pass like that or they obligated to

26:36

leave themselves open to that every day? It is

26:39

complete. There's no like ground rules.

26:41

There's no there's no ground rules. It's

26:44

based on the photographer's

26:47

relationship with the president and either one of the administrations

26:50

you served where you asked to step aside for a period of time

26:52

while they endured something that was bothering them.

26:54

And Reagan it was harder to stay in

26:56

the room with President Obama. He

26:59

never wanted everything. Yeah, so

27:01

when Bush Senior comes in,

27:03

forty one comes in, you leave?

27:06

Where do you go? What are you doing in that period of So

27:09

for nine years after that, I

27:11

was a freelance photographer based in d C.

27:14

Did some stuff for National Geographic When

27:17

life was a monthly. I did some work for them.

27:19

Would you enjoy doing what you had? Your break from

27:22

being in that bubble with those people?

27:25

It was fun. What was fun was

27:27

trying to take the fly you

27:30

know, they fly on the wall approach to sort

27:32

of feature photography for National Geographic

27:35

and UM learning about

27:37

color and light more. You

27:39

know, working back then and for National Geographic

27:41

you have to shoot slide film,

27:43

which it was very unforgiving. You have to get

27:45

the exposure just right. You have to

27:47

be outside when the light was just right. You

27:49

wouldn't be outside at this time of the day

27:52

at two o'clock or whatever time it is now, you do

27:55

you want to be outside at like five thirty

27:57

or seven am. So

28:00

learning more about light and color UM.

28:02

But freelancing was hard for me because I

28:05

was not really good at marketing myself,

28:08

and I had it was for nine years. It was kind

28:10

of up and down. I had some roll highs

28:12

and some real loads loads

28:15

where I wasn't getting work. So

28:17

being the White House photographer and and the for

28:19

the Reagan for Reagan for all those years,

28:21

that's not a guarantee of some kind of a put for

28:23

you job wise, not a guarantee, and the

28:26

I think when I left, uh

28:28

the White House under Reagan, it wasn't like I was that

28:31

well known. I mean, one of the things that happened

28:33

with President Obama is I'm

28:36

known because of social media. When

28:38

do you recall social media becomes relevant.

28:41

Well, what happened was there's

28:43

been this tradition since the Nixon days that

28:46

the White House Photography Office blows

28:48

up pictures, hangs

28:51

them on the wall the West Wing, and then you

28:53

rotate them out. And people were

28:55

blown away by the pictures that I was choosing

28:57

to put on the wall because it was the

28:59

real behind the scenes stuff. And

29:02

the communications people came to me and

29:04

to go, we need to make these public.

29:06

We need we need the public to see. And

29:10

I was the hold out. It took me like four

29:13

or five months to really get

29:15

into wanting to do this, and

29:17

I said to them, well, if this is the way it's

29:19

going to be, then I need

29:22

to curate the collection. I don't want

29:24

the Press office looking over my shoulder,

29:27

looking at every picture on

29:29

the screen and saying, let's do this one.

29:32

You gotta let the professionals. Because

29:34

I had a really good photo editor who had been at

29:36

time magazine. I said,

29:38

you gotta let us decide which photos we're

29:41

gonna make public. So that's how it sort

29:43

of got started. It was the staff

29:45

coming to me, uh,

29:47

urging me to make pictures

29:50

public um on.

29:53

At first we used Flicker and

29:55

then Instagram. You know, it didn't even exist until

29:58

the second year of his presidency,

30:01

so later on we started using Instagram.

30:03

To what camera did you use when you

30:05

were shooting Reagan nikon f

30:08

M two? What camera

30:10

did you use with Obama? So with Obama

30:12

used a Canon five D Mark two,

30:15

And why don't you switch from the one to the other. I

30:17

looked at all the cameras, and I thought Cannon

30:19

was the quietest. They had what

30:22

they called a silent mode. It wasn't totally

30:24

silent, but it was pretty silent.

30:27

And it became essential for the work you do, totally

30:29

essentially, and it was so much quieter

30:31

than Nikon. It was even quieter

30:34

than the like a digital cameras. Um

30:37

And so that's that's why I chose the

30:39

Canon. When you

30:42

are doing what you're doing in

30:44

between the two administrations, and

30:48

did you say to yourself, you

30:50

know, why am I going back here to do this again?

30:52

For a second hit of this was

30:55

it what what did you tell yourself? What was their

30:57

reasoning to go back after you've done it for so long

30:59

with Reagan? Uh?

31:01

Well, I think it was because I realized that,

31:03

you know, Obama could be a transformational

31:05

figure in our country. I

31:08

liked him, I liked his

31:11

policies, and he was

31:13

a great subject

31:17

subject. I think it's his look. You

31:20

know, he's tall and thin, but

31:23

he just had this manner about him

31:26

with gestures, with

31:29

the presence of the camera not affecting

31:32

how he behaved. Um

31:35

the way you're gonna ask you about that in the words

31:37

in the way that it's do

31:39

you think that the camera truly captures

31:42

the person for who they are or

31:44

do you think there are people who are able to even fool

31:47

a camera and make you think there's

31:49

something that they're not or obscure something about

31:51

themselves that they want obscure. That's a negative

31:53

value. People can definitely do that, But

31:56

people can't do that when

31:58

they're being photographed every re single

32:00

day, nine to six or

32:02

nine to eight or whatever. There's

32:05

no way you could fool a came that.

32:10

Yeah. So, but you

32:13

know, if if like I was only coming in for

32:15

an hour a day or something. Sure,

32:17

somebody could put on a show

32:19

for an hour, but not when

32:23

this guy is around you. Essentially

32:26

seven, it wasn't really seven,

32:28

it was more like twelve

32:33

seven. That's what strikes me about

32:35

Obama is that he was a guy with it was a certain kind

32:37

of integrity to him. That's what came through.

32:40

Well, the most interesting

32:42

part of my job was that I saw

32:44

him and all these different compartments

32:46

of his life. I saw him as a dad,

32:49

and I saw how he behaved with his children. I

32:51

saw him when he was on the basketball court, and

32:54

um, I played uh cards

32:57

with him. Most competitive guy I've

32:59

ever met my life. And

33:02

the general public doesn't see that, but I saw

33:04

that part of him. They sort

33:06

of have glimpses of his family life.

33:09

But you know, he loved his daughters.

33:11

He loves his daughters and you I could

33:13

see that, you know, all the time.

33:16

To make in a sense that he, like other men who

33:18

have had that job, it was painful for him

33:20

not to be able to spend as much time with his family as he'd

33:22

like to. Well, I mean, one rule that

33:24

everybody at the White House staff knew was

33:27

at six thirty or seven o'clock. He was

33:29

in a dinner with his family full

33:31

stop. Now there are times where

33:33

you come back down to the Oval, but he

33:36

was going to have dinner with his family every night. It

33:39

was actually easier as president

33:41

than than as senator because as a senator,

33:44

his family stayed in Chicago, and

33:46

he'd come to d C like

33:49

three or four days a week. I mean three, yeah,

33:51

for like Tuesday through Friday morning

33:53

or something. So there'd be at least three

33:55

days that he wouldn't see his family, whereas

33:58

when we were in town, he would see

34:00

his family every night. With

34:03

the president we have. Now, what

34:05

do you think your life would be like? Now? Boy,

34:09

I don't know. I know one thing is.

34:12

Under no circumstances would I

34:14

have stayed on to be White

34:17

House photographer. I was

34:19

the White House photographer. Now it's

34:21

someone that had been in the Bush

34:23

administration and had

34:25

been lower Bush's photographer for

34:30

But I like, I just I don't think I could

34:32

bring myself to be there and do that. Is

34:35

it a man or a woman? It's a woman.

34:37

And do you know her? Yes? Your

34:41

book which I have here, Obama and intimate

34:43

portrait is breathtaking. It's beautiful, it's

34:45

a beautiful book because the subject is

34:47

a very attractive guide in a lot of ways, and

34:49

someone who I support politically, which makes a huge difference.

34:52

But but it also

34:54

appeals to people, I

34:56

think because of what we are dealing

34:59

with. Now. Yes, yeah, he

35:02

was Abraham Lincoln.

35:05

What's a picture even that's a

35:07

damn good picture I took. Well, here's here.

35:09

You know, the goal is to always

35:12

capture a

35:14

photograph a moment that has mood

35:17

and emotion, that's composed

35:20

just right, the lighting

35:22

is just right. And yet I'm going to tell

35:24

you there's a picture that only

35:26

has one of those components that is one

35:28

of my favorites, and it's the one on the back

35:31

cover. Um it's

35:33

a young African American

35:35

boy touching the head

35:37

of the president as he's as he's bent over,

35:40

Because I think that tells you a

35:43

lot about how he relates

35:45

to um or

35:48

you know, how a young kid relates to him.

35:50

But also that even as President United

35:52

States, at the behest

35:55

of a five year old, he went ahead and

35:57

bent over to let this little

36:00

kid feel his hair, which

36:02

I think, uh, how

36:05

much tells you everything you need to know? Yeah, yeah,

36:07

yeah, I understand. I understand. Um,

36:10

well, thank you so much for doing this, thanks for having

36:12

me on and I I love your book. I

36:15

think it's absolutely gorgeous. And you're

36:17

right, it makes people wistful. It's tough

36:20

because we certainly wish that we were

36:22

in a different place when than we are now. But do

36:26

you get to interact with Obama anymore? Run into

36:28

Yeah. The last time I saw him was at

36:32

the portrait gallery, then

36:34

failing of the two pictures, he and Michelle's

36:36

portrait, and then I saw him over Christmas

36:38

at he had a holiday party at his office.

36:42

Uh. He was wearing a Santa hat. Uh.

36:45

People say, well, how's he doing? I go, well, the

36:48

thing that I noticed is it's as if the

36:50

way of the world has been lifted from his shoulders

36:53

because for eight years, you're the guy everything

36:55

is coming to your desk and

36:57

and despite you know, you think of him

37:00

as being relaxed, and you know that

37:02

that's a big job to have. And

37:04

I think that he is now

37:07

enjoying life.

37:10

Pete Susa's book of photos

37:12

and stories from his years in

37:14

the White House with President Obama is

37:16

called Obama an Intimate

37:19

Portrait. It's beautiful. If

37:22

you already have that one. You can pre order

37:24

Shade A Tale of Two Presidents,

37:27

his next book of photographs. It

37:29

takes susa's Instagram into

37:31

hardcover framing, inspiring

37:34

the photographs from the Obama White House

37:36

with tweets and quotes from

37:38

Obama's successor. I'm

37:42

Alec Baldwin and you're listening to

37:44

Here's the Thing. Two

38:02

cook