0:02

I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening

0:05

to Here's the Thing. My

0:08

podcast Here's the Thing is moving

0:10

from public Radio w n y C,

0:13

in particular to I Heart

0:15

Radio, so please keep

0:17

your eyes and ears open for a

0:20

formal announcement as to our exact

0:22

launch date on My Heart.

0:25

The show will still be called Here's the Thing.

0:28

For our final two programs

0:30

on w n y C, we've

0:32

cut together a compilation of some of my favorite

0:35

interviews from the past several years.

0:38

But before we get to that, I would like to take a moment

0:40

to thank Emily Boutine

0:42

and Adam tie Schultz, my producers

0:45

for the past several seasons, as

0:47

well as everyone at w n y

0:49

C for the opportunity to explore

0:52

my curiosity with you and

0:54

speak to some of the greatest artists,

0:57

musicians, actors, writers,

0:59

thinkers, public policymakers,

1:01

sports figures, you name it. Our

1:04

roster of guests is really quite

1:07

something, and I encourage you to visit

1:09

our archives and download some

1:11

of our older shows. And

1:14

of course a special thanks to

1:16

you the listeners for joining

1:18

me. This has been the experience

1:20

of a lifetime, and thank you. They

1:23

say that casting is everything,

1:26

and that is no doubt true for an

1:28

interview show, and we've been

1:30

quite lucky on Here's the Thing, sitting

1:32

down with some rather accomplished

1:35

guests. My first clip

1:37

is from my interview with the legendary Barbra

1:40

Streisand who talks here

1:42

about how she wanted control of her films

1:45

in a way that may not have been available to

1:47

an actress, even one of her stature, so

1:49

she decided to direct. It

1:52

was something that happened during the way we were

1:55

where two scenes were cut out that

1:57

were intrinsic to

2:00

the value of

2:02

the story. And

2:04

it made me so crazy that

2:08

they couldn't see that that

2:11

that propelled me into it. I couldn't understand

2:13

it. And it's hard to quarrel with a you

2:15

know, a hit movie. I don't

2:18

know if it was a hit at the time. Tell you the truth,

2:20

it's grown to me say it was. Warren

2:24

Beatty said to me once, is it. Until

2:26

you take ultimate responsibility and you're willing

2:28

to direct the movie, you're gonna be constantly frustrated.

2:30

And he said, you must consider that if

2:33

it was so delicious, And

2:35

it's like, you know, when you finally

2:38

have the power to

2:41

control your work, you

2:45

you get very humble in a sense, it's

2:47

like I wanted to give power

2:49

away to other people as well. You know, I would

2:51

say to my standing, you run

2:54

that course with

2:56

the cameraman, this is the shot, but I want

2:59

you to be able to tell on me where to stand.

3:02

In other words, it's a feeling of such gratitude

3:06

where you you never have to

3:08

raise your voice because everybody's

3:11

finally listening. You

3:14

don't have to get angry about anything they

3:16

weren't listening before. Sometimes

3:18

well, sometimes when I would say things as just

3:21

an actress, like this is what I'm telling

3:23

you, this story the way we

3:25

were it went on

3:28

deaf ears. You know, they didn't agree with

3:30

me whatever, But when you see

3:32

something so clearly, um,

3:35

that's wrong to me or what

3:38

could be right? Or see.

3:41

I had such a great time directing Yental

3:43

because I did it in England and in Czechoslovakia.

3:47

In England they're not afraid

3:49

of women, powerful women,

3:52

strong women, because they

3:54

had a queen. They have a queen and

3:56

at the time they had the Prime Minister who

3:59

was Margaret sure So

4:02

I was shocked at the respect

4:04

that I had as a first time director.

4:07

I couldn't believe it. Um

4:11

and the crew was so kind

4:14

and just. It was the most

4:16

wonderful experience, I must

4:19

say. And

4:21

even the Czechoslovakian

4:24

government was wonderful to me because I needed

4:26

Jews to be in the synagogue

4:29

and pray and so for then you

4:32

know, it was during communist times, and

4:34

they went to the Jewish community,

4:36

thank God, and had them come so I didn't

4:38

have to teach them how to be Jewish, you know, how

4:41

did some real Jews

4:43

Jews was an Italian dressed as Jews,

4:46

like in New York where they have to say,

4:48

well how do you stand in a synagogue and how do you

4:50

pray? And it was

4:52

it was wonderful. And

4:54

also well you know when you have extras

4:57

in Czechoslovakia, then they didn't

5:00

give them lunch. So the people would

5:02

come with like bags of their lunch, which

5:05

broke my heart. So I

5:07

would, you know, give them our food,

5:10

which we never had vegetables. We had a cent to

5:12

London or France or Italy

5:15

to get vegetables, because you know, their

5:17

food diet was like hot chalk. I

5:19

loved it, of course, bread and butter and hot

5:21

chocolate in the morning with whipped creamers,

5:23

and I

5:26

was on heaven and I wanted to be thinner,

5:28

but well, and every

5:30

day I would not every day, but every few days I would

5:32

bring in pasties, you know, with

5:35

that delicious dough in the meat inside,

5:38

and I we'd always have the most delicious teas

5:40

that I'd bring in those cream

5:43

like doughnuts shaped like a hot dog

5:45

from Whimpis and

5:47

you know, eat this delicious cream with the

5:49

doughnuts. Oh my god, it was so

5:51

good, and

5:53

they it was very sweet. Because

5:55

the whole crew wrote a letter that's

5:58

one of my prized possession, I must say.

6:01

And they wrote this letter to the newspapers

6:05

and it said that you know, Ms try said

6:07

something like Mrs try Sand never

6:09

raises her voice and

6:12

has a smile for us every day. And

6:14

it's like not the stories we've heard about

6:16

her, and no newspaper

6:19

would publish it, but

6:23

it figures it's like Hillary Clinton, as

6:25

you said, the upside of that experience where the yentle

6:27

was working in a culture where the power

6:30

of women was just accepted. And I'm

6:32

crestfall and to say the least about what happened

6:34

here, not just because this guy won, but I really do

6:36

think misogyny and well

6:40

before I did get some sort of Award

6:42

from Women in film

6:45

directing yental And a

6:48

lot of my speech was about women

6:51

against women, because

6:55

the reviews of Yentel from women

6:58

were vicious, you

7:01

know, in other words, they didn't even

7:03

talk about this celebration of

7:06

womanhood, that a woman could

7:08

not only you know, make dinner and

7:11

have babies, but she

7:13

could have an intellect, she

7:16

could want to study, be something

7:18

more do do

7:21

it? Men do? Just equality, you know. So

7:25

to read a review that said

7:28

her she wore a design in the New York

7:30

Times, she wore a designer yamaka.

7:32

Now everything, every piece of

7:34

clothing in that movie was authentic.

7:38

That same year there was the film directed

7:40

Buying Mark Bergmann Fanny and Alexander.

7:43

They wore the same yamica, but nobody attacked

7:45

that film. I love detail,

7:48

so I would, you know, for years, I would

7:51

do research about Polish Jews,

7:53

about these Jews, that Jews

7:56

everything, the Evil Institute in

7:58

New York um

8:00

talking to scholars studying Talmud,

8:03

just to bring that, because

8:05

I do believe that when you study

8:08

like that and do the research, you

8:10

don't have to act that It's

8:12

like the camera picks up the

8:15

truth, even just behind

8:17

your eyes. In the sound of your voice, whatever

8:20

it is mine. You

8:22

know. I had this wonderful shot,

8:25

I thought, as it cuts from a chicken

8:27

coop to me sitting behind the bars

8:30

up separated from the men in the shool.

8:33

And that shot was attacked by

8:35

this woman critic, Janet

8:38

Maslin. Her name was now she could

8:40

attack my lips incer. That's true. I'm

8:43

a terrible lip sinker. I can't

8:45

do it because when I

8:47

did movies like Funny Girl or Hello Dolly,

8:49

you know, they record the soundtrack three

8:51

months before you shoot, and

8:53

I have to be in the moment as an actor.

8:56

I don't know how I'm going to feel when I actually

8:59

perform it. So that's why when I

9:01

did the movie Star Is Born,

9:03

it's all real, it's all um I

9:06

had. I did not

9:08

want. I needed to be free, to

9:10

be in the moment, So we recorded

9:12

on the spot. What do you call that live? It was

9:14

all live. And then what

9:17

I would do is um

9:19

because I had final cut on that movie, I could

9:22

control those things. UM.

9:25

We would shoot the close ups first, so

9:27

where the performance really counted, and

9:30

then I would just choose it right on the spot, okay,

9:32

I think, And I would do about one to

9:34

four takes. You know, all these stories

9:37

about me like I do millions of takes,

9:39

most of them are false. And

9:41

so let's say I would take take three,

9:44

you know, and then move

9:46

the cameras back to do the wider shot

9:49

because you didn't have to see me close, you

9:51

know, not doing the lip sync. Good.

9:54

I did a documentary film

9:56

about can It's ostensibly about Ken

9:59

and Ryan got thing. We corner him

10:01

at an hotel. Yeah, I think I saw it. Jimmy

10:03

Toback and I did this thing called Seduced and Abandoned

10:07

and we get Gosling at the Beverly Hills

10:09

Hotel or the bel Air Hotel.

10:11

I should say, any long story short

10:13

is he has this beautiful explication of how

10:15

agonizing it is to shoot films, and just in

10:17

that kind of Arthur Murray by numbers

10:20

way, we have to shoot a match to this and to

10:22

this. It can't be fresh and

10:24

it's painful. No, And that's why I love

10:27

long takes, because I think I'm from the

10:29

theater and we had to do a whole show, right,

10:32

So I don't like pieces. I mean, you

10:34

I the fun of directing to me

10:37

is designing the shot, the

10:39

camera accommodating

10:41

the actors. So the actors.

10:44

There's a lot of scenes in Yentle that you can see

10:46

like this. They're all in one move

10:48

practically. In other words,

10:51

we come in through a door and

10:54

I'm in the foreground,

10:56

let's say. But he who's following me, the

10:59

my leader who

11:01

was Mandy Patinkin at the time, and

11:03

he still is but um,

11:07

you know, we see him standing there, and then

11:09

he comes forward and I sit

11:11

down. He becomes he's standing

11:13

up, but the camera never moved, but

11:16

you see everything. Then the camera

11:18

moves as we're together, but it

11:20

doesn't cut. And then

11:22

he has you know, when when he leaves me, you

11:24

see him go out the door. He slams the

11:26

door and the camera moves in a little

11:29

bit. As I'm thinking about

11:31

it, that's the scene. But it's what's

11:33

fun about that is that

11:36

we're all on our toes. You can't

11:38

make a mistake. And

11:40

most of these shots that I do that there's no coverage.

11:45

That the greatest on the

11:47

very little coverage the actors

11:49

played the scene in the frame. That's

11:51

right now now, in the

11:54

time that you made films, the

11:56

many years you've made films, the

11:59

success for acting

12:01

and not directing, successful as a

12:03

director and producer and all those things. Were

12:05

there are people that you wanted to work

12:08

with, whether people you sat there as a guy, I'd love to make

12:10

a film with that person because you've been in such a privileged

12:12

place and I

12:14

had all these people available to Was there a director

12:16

that you dreamed of working with you didn't get to work with? Well,

12:19

I Mark Bergman is a

12:22

person that contacted me to do

12:24

a remake of The Merry Widow and

12:26

I was so excited, you know, and I

12:29

came to um Sweden

12:33

and we embraced and it was

12:35

this wonderful embrace, you

12:37

know. I mean he I

12:39

can't explain what that what

12:42

that's like. It's was just he

12:45

sort of understood me, and

12:47

I understood him without any words.

12:52

And the first act of that screenplay

12:54

was fantastic, I mean, very body

12:57

uh kind of shocking. I loved

13:00

it, you know. So

13:03

then and when I have letters now, I forget

13:06

things until I have to go into my archives

13:09

and look at this stuff, letters from

13:11

him and notes that I wrote

13:13

back to him talking about this film.

13:15

What happened the

13:20

second act? You know, he says we're

13:22

going to be collaborators, and

13:26

the second act was not

13:30

very good. I thought it was like

13:32

like Jevas Amadeus. I'm sure the

13:35

first act was extraordinary to me in the

13:37

movie, and the second act was I

13:40

don't know, just somehow

13:43

repetitious. It

13:45

It didn't go far enough

13:48

in the story, you know. And

13:51

that's the way I felt about this. And all of a sudden

13:55

it was gone. The collaboration was over.

13:58

We never made the film,

14:00

and I couldn't quite believe it. I mean, the

14:03

fact that I

14:05

didn't like certain things in the second act did

14:08

he liked? Well,

14:10

he never defended it. It was like, you

14:12

know, I think that's right and

14:15

so. But I would have loved to work

14:17

with Berto Lucci and

14:20

Schris you know what I did. I realized

14:22

this now and looking back at my life.

14:24

I turned down Alice doesn't live here

14:27

anymore. I turned down a lot of films actually

14:30

because I was lazy. I'm basically I'm

14:34

a dichotomy here, a dichotomy

14:37

lazy and um,

14:41

I don't know what the word is, restless, restless

14:44

maybe? Yeah, like wanting to create

14:48

about you, it would be called the lazy and the restless.

14:52

Oh no, that's a very good time. Yeah,

14:56

exactly, exactly I

14:59

love to take a vacation and do

15:01

nothing. I

15:03

like to have no appointments. And

15:07

I think that's a condition in my mind of

15:10

people who have tremendous not

15:12

so much financial success, but creative

15:14

success. I mean, there's a famous actress who I won't

15:17

name you. Wait, you know what?

15:19

Do you want to take a sip of soup on your

15:22

Do you want soup to I'll have a soup. I

15:25

mean we kind of say no. Well,

15:27

I mean this is a I'm irish. It's bad

15:29

luck to say no to soup? Is that in

15:31

Ireland? I just made that up. Oh

15:35

just put that over here? Oh see, I just

15:37

brought this table from the back

15:40

and we need another table maybe over here because

15:43

this is me so soup, don't I mean?

15:45

In other words, people know we eat, right,

15:49

so if they hear it's

15:52

okay, good, good, good good, because I

15:54

always like to eat. Oh really

15:57

know you know you won't mm hmm.

16:00

That is delicious, isn't it. That

16:07

was my interview with Barbara Streisand

16:10

sometimes the task is to convince

16:12

some of our iconic guests to

16:15

sit down with me. Other times

16:17

the task is simply to find them.

16:20

In the case of my next clip. Joe

16:22

Delessandro proved to be more

16:25

than a little elusive, but

16:27

once we got the star of many

16:29

of Warhol's early films and photography

16:32

to join us, he was gracious, forthcoming

16:35

and funny, like when he talked here

16:37

about his early days as a male

16:39

model. The criminal guy who's the modeling

16:41

agency. How did that play out? Well?

16:44

He introduces me to this version

16:46

at once that does these, uh,

16:49

these photographs, and they

16:51

said, you know, look, Joe rubbed

16:53

his oil on you. And it starts

16:56

out real, you know, really

16:59

easy. You know, it's nothing, nothing

17:01

that's too frightening to a person that's

17:03

you know, being first introduced to it.

17:06

It's just, you know, take your clothes off

17:08

and stand over there and nude. Yeah,

17:10

and for you, did you feel it in that world

17:13

you want to nose for people you could trust and not

17:15

trust. Yeah,

17:17

So the guy says, oil up and stand over there naked.

17:19

You knew you were cool? Yeah, nothing, nothing

17:22

was gonna happen there. Yeah.

17:24

Did you find it weird? Yeah? I

17:26

thought it was real weird, But I was gonna get fifty

17:28

dollars, a whole fifty dollars. That

17:31

was a lot of money back then. You

17:33

know, and I thought, wow, fifty

17:35

dollars was standing, So

17:38

yeah, Joe making put them up like

17:40

like you're making a muscle Joe, you know. And

17:44

shortly after that, I have

17:46

a fight with the guy that introduced me to this

17:48

modeling people because he had this scam that

17:51

he wanted to do. He wanted to blackmail

17:54

somebody. You wanted me to do something and

17:56

I ain't doing that. And also it's a stupid

17:59

ship, you know. So I

18:01

got angry and he got he got

18:04

violent. He was an ex con

18:06

that was, you know, gonna show his toughness,

18:10

not to me. Anyway.

18:13

He broke a bottle to come at me, and I knocked

18:16

the bottle out of his hand and went on the ground and

18:18

broke and uh

18:21

he uh he did a little

18:23

dance with him. Yeah. He fell on the glass

18:26

and got all cut up. You know. Well

18:28

actually I threw him on the glass and

18:31

he got all cut up. No, No, he fell on the

18:33

glass. Yeah, and we hold him down. You

18:35

were trying to help him. He tried to press charges

18:37

against you. Yeah, he tried to do all listen on sense.

18:39

Anyway, we went to court and

18:42

they reached my father and say, you

18:45

know your your son's out here, and oh,

18:47

you need to send them back, you know, put

18:49

him on a plane and I'll send

18:51

you the money. Where'd you live them?

18:53

And he got to New York. I stayed

18:56

with him for a week and then went

18:58

out on my own again. There

19:00

was the plan when you were back in New York, Well, the

19:03

modeling thing again? Did you think this is good money?

19:05

I never thought about it, about the modeling

19:07

thing, you know, it wasn't something that I

19:10

knew anybody. I had a couple of friends

19:12

in New York that introduced

19:14

me to other people. And and then

19:17

one day one of these friends, uh

19:19

said, Hey, I know this person that's

19:22

uh making these Campbell

19:24

soup can you know makes the Cambell soup? And

19:27

I was thinking we were going to eat some

19:29

soup, which I was all

19:31

for. You're gonna go to the Campbell soup factory?

19:34

Yeah, whatever, Pennsylvania. I

19:36

had no idea where it was. You could take

19:38

a picture of you oiled up, said

19:40

there's somebody sitting behind a camera

19:43

reading a newspaper, so I couldn't

19:45

see who it was or what it was, you know, but

19:47

they wanted to introduce me that this Campbell

19:50

soup. Andy Warho guy

19:52

that I had. You know, I didn't know who

19:54

Andy Warho was or you know, before

19:57

I met them. Mine I had married,

20:00

uh young lady, my

20:02

first my first wife. Ah

20:08

No, I had to be eighteen then. So but

20:11

it was why did you get married when

20:13

you're right there? Freedom is a

20:15

premium for you? Why did you get married? My father was

20:17

dating her mother, and my

20:21

father wanted to she got herself

20:23

pregnant. My father said,

20:25

you know, you should take we should take

20:27

this person and he should own

20:30

up to his responsibility of his kids. Were

20:32

father. I was also got pregnant

20:35

with somebody else. My father

20:37

said, we'll take him to court, you know. And

20:39

and I kept telling

20:42

my father, you shouldn't do that, and you shouldn't

20:44

push you to do that, because he's gonna

20:46

come in with a bunch. This is Brooklyn, you know, he

20:48

can come a bunch of guys saying we all

20:50

slept with her and nothing's going to ever

20:52

come from which one of us is the father. Yeah,

20:55

that's back before DNA and all

20:57

that other ship. Thank

20:59

god for yet. Yeah,

21:02

anyway,

21:03

so you decided to marry her. I decided

21:06

to marry her and give the kid my name,

21:08

you know, what kind of work did you do? Then?

21:12

I was a book binder, I went

21:14

to Actually I was assembly

21:16

line. I didn't do anything except in

21:19

the city, yea Manhattan.

21:22

Who wouldn't know why that job? Because

21:24

my uncle ran the ran the show was his

21:26

business. Yeah, well I don't know if it was his business,

21:28

but he ran the shop. So

21:31

was there a part of you when you're in Jersey

21:34

and your book binding and you got

21:36

a sixteen year old bride has got a kid,

21:38

and we're not quite sure who in the Brooklyn

21:40

gang is really the father? Do you sit there

21:42

and go I missed standing They're oiled up in

21:44

a room naked getting the fifty bucks from

21:47

these guys. I don't know, did you miss that? Yeah?

21:50

And then you and then you go meet the guy who's behind the

21:52

newspaper, who makes the soup, who's gonna make you soup

21:54

for lunch? What happened there? He

21:57

drops the newspaper. What happens? Obviously he

21:59

became very fond of you, very quickly. Well,

22:01

it wasn't him. It was the guy that was standing

22:03

to the side of the camera and giving all

22:05

the instructions to everybody, And

22:08

that was Paul Marcy. So

22:11

He's the one that suggested that I'd be in the

22:13

film because he ow, he

22:16

was this character that asked

22:18

everything about your life and I had told him,

22:20

you know, in junior

22:22

high had

22:25

played on the wrestling team. He says, Oh,

22:27

that's a good idea. We'll have you do that

22:29

with Undine. You'll you teach him wrestling,

22:32

so let film that. We'll film that.

22:34

What do you described? Morrissey then Marcy

22:38

real smart, real educated he had.

22:42

He was a Fordham graduate.

22:44

He was a social worker before in

22:48

New York City where he

22:51

really saw these uh strange

22:54

people that he had, you know, work

22:56

with. Uh. So

22:59

he had plenty of great stories and he shot.

23:03

Uh these films

23:05

that was shot. There were silent films I saw.

23:08

I watched a couple of them. They were pretty good

23:10

films. Uh you're a movie

23:12

goer them, you're like, yeah, I was. I

23:15

loved the movies. I didn't want

23:17

to be in them. I just liked watching

23:19

them. But when you watch the movies at Morrissey

23:21

and or warhol Man, they weren't like movies

23:24

you saw in the theater when I yeah, I

23:26

thought they were a joke. I thought that. Well,

23:28

when we were shooting this one thing the soup day

23:31

they were shifting. They asked me to be in the thing, and I

23:33

shot this most scene and they came

23:36

over to me after we were done, and

23:38

uh, they asked me to

23:41

sign a release. I said,

23:44

you're not gonna this is just for fun.

23:46

Nobody's gonna ever see this. This is it's

23:49

just I thought, just like a whole movie. I

23:51

didn't think they were gonna, you know, ever show

23:54

this anywhere, and thought it was a joke because

23:56

what was happening there was you know, pretty

23:59

silly. You know, wasn't you know, anything

24:01

I ever saw in the theater. It was

24:03

unfamiliar. Yeah, really,

24:06

I signed the release thinking it would

24:08

never be released. And and then

24:11

later on they called me and asked

24:14

if I would them

24:17

to photograph me for the advertising

24:19

of this film that they you

24:22

know, they shot with me first before

24:25

this movie that was supposed to be a twenty

24:27

four hour movie that turned into Loves of Undine.

24:29

They cut it into a smoom.

24:32

That was your first movie, and that was my first movie

24:34

with him. But before that was ever

24:36

released, they had called me up and

24:39

he did to ask me to

24:41

be in another movie. And

24:44

then he put Paul on the phone who told

24:46

me, Yeah, Joe, we're

24:48

going out to Arizona to shoot

24:50

a Western. Would you like to be in

24:52

the West end? I said, sure, that'd

24:55

be great, but you gotta pay me

24:57

what I would I make at the book binding place,

25:00

as I can't take off. I'm married

25:02

now, I gotta take care of my all

25:04

his bullshit, Yeah

25:07

about what I was making. They paid you

25:09

exactly what you made. The probably

25:13

they were cheap. They were always cheap. They

25:15

didn't want to pay somebody too much, and then

25:17

somebody else asked for the same thing. You

25:20

know, is it amazing you sit in

25:22

a room back in nineteen sixty

25:25

seven with a bunch of people who

25:27

later on the soup can guy

25:29

would sell his paintings for tens of millions

25:32

of dollars. Yeah, he

25:34

becomes one of the richest artists in history.

25:37

Did you have an artistic sensibility

25:39

but you thought that these guys were or you? Just as you said,

25:42

it was just unfamiliar and silly. Well

25:44

in the beginning, and you know it all,

25:48

it wasn't for me and and Andy's

25:50

art. You know, we all participated in making

25:53

the Andy art. They had said,

25:56

you know, after we had shot the Cowboy movie and

25:58

we came back. I thought that was it. Go

26:00

back to book binding. And you know,

26:02

I called Paul ask

26:05

him about the Western and

26:09

he had told me that he had a job for me

26:11

at the factory and I said,

26:13

okay, you know, and he happy to

26:15

give up what I was doing, you know, doing

26:18

something there, and

26:21

I went down to the factory and that was the day.

26:23

Then Andy was shot when I showed up

26:25

to the factory to work there. Sometimes

26:30

at the onset, I wonder where

26:32

the conversation might go, and by the end

26:34

I realized I could have talked with my guest

26:37

for hours. Such is the case

26:39

with Joe Delessandro. Thank

26:41

you, Joe.

26:49

My next clip is from my interview

26:52

with Elaine Stretch. Elaine

26:54

had quite a career. Towards the end of it,

26:56

she played my mother, Colleen Donaghye,

26:59

on the television series thirty Rock. When

27:02

the show was over, Elaine announced

27:04

she was leaving New York and we were

27:06

lucky enough to catch up with her before she relocated

27:08

home to Michigan. And

27:10

if you know Elaine, it comes as no surprise

27:13

that the interview could just stop at

27:15

any given moment. Where is my black

27:18

bag? Alec Hunter?

27:20

I need. I need orange

27:23

juice. Hunter, come in plays? Can we send

27:25

Hunter in here? Plays with the provisions?

27:28

Hunter. Ryan Herdlika, who accompanied

27:30

Elaine to the studio, came through the door

27:33

juice in hand. I need some orange

27:35

juice. Beanies

27:38

is kicking up, Hunter,

27:41

my good man, hunters

27:44

right with the world. Okay,

27:47

we'll how about a glass. Yes, that's

27:49

a clean water. We'll

27:52

get him a clean we'll go, we'll go get her clean. All right,

27:54

it's all right if you just empty that glass,

27:56

it's heaven. I need some

27:59

orange juice. You know that I'm

28:01

diabetic, Yes, of course, I mean the world

28:03

knows by now, the world.

28:06

It's okay. You

28:08

know what I quoted the other day, the line

28:10

of my father's that really

28:13

is so naughty and just so much fun.

28:15

Here's looking up your old address.

28:18

Isn't that a great line? And

28:21

he said it with no he used

28:23

that was it. That's right?

28:25

All right, I'm gonna drink this and bring the orangese now

28:28

so we don't have some event here. That's

28:30

cool. Alright. So now

28:33

that you've had your orange juice and your brain

28:35

freezes over, Kirk Douglas,

28:38

what was the show? Do you remember now? Woman?

28:40

Bites dog. That

28:44

orange juice. It's a miracle. Elcksir. I

28:46

want to be a case of that orange juice

28:49

dog, woman bites dog. What

28:51

do you play in that? If you girlfriend?

28:55

He lived with I didn't even know

28:57

what that phrase

28:59

meant. You were a floozy? Well

29:01

no, I wasn't. I just but I lived

29:03

with him and I wasn't married

29:06

to him. I didn't know what that meant. What do

29:08

you remember about Kirk Douglas. Oh

29:10

my god, I loved him. Oh god,

29:12

I loved him. And what

29:14

an actor he was. And

29:16

he's one of the few men who was

29:18

as great an actor as he was a star. He

29:22

was a great actor. He was a great actor.

29:24

He was a great actor. I loved him, and he

29:26

loved me. He flipped

29:28

over me. I've known him for

29:31

years, and he took me halfway

29:34

away for the weekend, and then I discovered

29:36

that I shouldn't go. He

29:38

took you half way away to

29:41

Palm Springs, and then I said I shouldn't

29:43

be going. So what did do you hit? Like? What helds?

29:48

I do know? We were halfway to Palm

29:50

Beach, Palm Springs things. So

29:53

you're driving east. We were

29:55

driving for the weekend and you decided

29:57

you didn't want to. Well, I said,

30:00

I'm getting nervous, because

30:02

what do you want me to do when we get up

30:04

here? Oh,

30:06

Elaine, you knew I was a virgin,

30:08

so he was dealing with that. So

30:11

what was the first leading role you had on Broadway?

30:14

Big roll? Take

30:16

more horors, you see you can remember of

30:25

the big part, big

30:27

big part I had was Angel

30:29

and the Wings, which was a review, hardest

30:32

thing in the world to do a review, and

30:35

the kind of review like New Faces, was like Leonard

30:37

Sulman's sketches. And

30:40

I was the big busted

30:43

you know, girl in the in

30:45

the bedroom. I was the I

30:48

was the piece on the

30:50

side. Yeah, where

30:52

are you? Isn't amazing? You were this virginal

30:55

You went to suck or cur and you went to

30:57

finishing school and I played as soon

30:59

as you're out, God is just tempting

31:01

you. He's taking Marlon Brando on

31:03

one side of you, and Kirk Douglas has

31:06

reving up the convertible to take you to Palm Springs,

31:08

and you're the fluzi here and you're the piece

31:11

on the side, the bust defend fatalel

31:13

But what I was really doing

31:16

is learning my lines to

31:19

the play or to the television

31:24

or to the I was really loving

31:26

acting. I loved it. I

31:29

loved pretending. I just loved

31:32

it. Was being somebody

31:35

other than I was was my

31:37

idea of a good time? Was part of that

31:39

process for you? Learning from people you work

31:42

with, it you admire. Did you look at other people and

31:44

say, because I've had that. I mean, I'm not

31:46

going to say I had it well

31:48

like Merman? When you worked with Merman? Did you learn from

31:50

Merman? Did you did you know you didn't?

31:52

I did her part right. I

31:55

did her There's no question,

31:59

so she would not. Some loved her, everybody

32:01

loved everybody. But I know how

32:03

to do that. And I was so

32:06

frightened and so terrified,

32:08

and I was so good in it. Did

32:11

you feel that she was of that type where just Mermin

32:13

as Mermaid, she goes out into study. She

32:16

made, you know, so long.

32:18

She'd say goodbye to me from the wings

32:21

on my opening night and then go sit

32:23

in the first row. She

32:25

scared me to death when

32:28

I got to the end of call Me Madam,

32:30

it was mine? You

32:33

felt that way? When do you think you became

32:35

you? The

32:38

moment I started to rehearse Mermaid's

32:40

part. I was doing

32:42

the New Mermaid, the New Everything.

32:46

That's when you became you. Yeah,

32:48

So doing the piece doing call Me Madam

32:51

is when you felt things changed for you.

32:54

You felt you were were not necessarily

32:57

now everything I did, everything

32:59

I did was you know.

33:03

But when you do a show Elaine

33:06

Stretch at Liberty, when

33:08

you do a show that is a memoir of

33:11

your career, oh yeah,

33:13

and it is enormously successful,

33:15

when did you think in your life? When did

33:17

you reach a point in your life that

33:19

you felt you were someone who could write

33:22

a memoir about your life, that you thought it was

33:24

interesting enough. When did you cross the

33:26

line and say, yeah,

33:28

I was convinced by this producer

33:30

who said, who saw me perform

33:33

at a Judy Garland special

33:36

at Carnegie Hall? And what

33:39

I did was tells Judy Garland

33:41

stories And I told her it was a tribute

33:43

to Judy. She's gone by

33:45

this, yeah, and

33:47

oh boy, I really

33:50

did know her very well. From where

33:52

did your first meet her? Party?

33:54

At a party someplace I don't know.

33:57

And I loved her. So when

34:00

I tried out one of my stories on

34:02

Judy Garland, I mean she tried

34:05

out one of hers. I said,

34:07

Judy, I've got an idea, and I sincerely

34:09

did. I said, I've got a great idea.

34:12

Why don't we tour Maime?

34:18

I said to Judy Garan And

34:21

she says divine. She

34:23

said that sounds great. I

34:26

said, but here's the good idea, Judy.

34:30

When I do Mame, I

34:33

go to bed early, and

34:36

when you do me, you go to

34:38

bed early. And then the other

34:40

one does vera

34:44

she want a switch on and off. Yeah,

34:46

she bought you. She's

34:49

listening now and she's saying okay,

34:53

okay, okay,

34:55

and she's counting up the songs.

34:57

What songs she has? What? And

35:02

after this long pause, she looks at me

35:04

and says, what about Matene's?

35:08

And I thought it was one of the funniest things I've ever

35:10

heard in my whole life, that

35:13

Judy Garland wanted to know what

35:15

about Mattenees. That's

35:17

how she carefully. She wanted her her

35:20

career planned so she

35:22

could be able to get loaded when

35:25

she wanted to. And you know, it

35:27

was her way of treating a

35:30

very serious discussion. So you did a

35:32

tribute thing where you told stories about her,

35:35

and that's when someone pitched the idea to

35:37

you of doing a memoir of your career. That's

35:39

right. What vaguely and said, you tell

35:42

a story to an audience the like of which

35:44

I have never heard. That's true. I was

35:46

that the opening night at the Public, when that Liberty

35:49

opened at the Public, and everyone

35:51

who was had a pulse in New York.

35:53

Everyone who was alive that night came to

35:55

that opening at the Public. Everybody in the

35:57

theater came. They went crazy, They

35:59

went crazy. It's lovely, God, it's

36:01

lovely. Success is lovely. It's

36:03

so hard, and it's such hard work,

36:06

but it's so gratifying. What's

36:08

the hardest thing about it for you? What's been the hardest

36:10

thing? Do you find it hard?

36:12

To have? The fear of what that

36:15

you won't be able to perform, the fear that I'm

36:17

just going to forget, and I'm going to

36:19

not not so much forget, but it's

36:22

the fear. It's the fear. And

36:26

that was when I was not drinking at

36:28

all, and I didn't drink anything

36:30

to get my talent on, but all

36:33

my life I had. Have you ever

36:35

done a show? I'm sure you've done countless

36:37

shows. You ever done a show where you're sitting backstage thinking

36:39

what am I doing here? How did I get myself

36:42

into this? Or? Were you always engaged by

36:44

what you were doing? I was

36:46

always engaged with always. You

36:48

never took I was leading up to it

36:51

or coming down, you know, I

36:54

I was trying to get it behind. You never regretted

36:57

doing anything? Never? No,

37:00

that's incredible. No, I never never

37:03

regretted doing anything on the stage.

37:06

Never. How was that possible

37:09

because I just one every time I

37:11

walked out there. You

37:14

know that old expression about I own

37:16

the stage. That

37:21

was from my interview with the incomparable

37:24

Elaine Stretch. Some

37:27

of the musicians I've interviewed

37:29

have had tough lives, during

37:31

which they created some of the greatest

37:33

music the world has ever heard. The

37:36

next clip is from my interview with David

37:39

Crosby, the self described

37:41

mischievous kid who started singing folk

37:43

songs at age six on

37:45

his way to his remarkable career.

37:48

And you go to boarding school? I did, Yeah, Kate?

37:51

What was that block? What were you like?

37:56

Were you always mischievous?

37:58

And it get load of trouble

38:00

Why I don't know,

38:03

but it's definitely true. I

38:05

got thrown out of almost every school I was ever in,

38:07

including Kate, What was music

38:10

in your life? Then? Music came early,

38:12

and well, uh, my mom

38:15

sang in choirs. My dad

38:17

liked music. He could play

38:19

a mantle in. My brother played guitar. We

38:22

used to Here's an interesting thing when

38:24

when we were growing up in

38:27

the fifties, when TV started to really happen,

38:30

we didn't have a TV, so

38:33

we sang folk songs out of the fireside

38:35

Book of Folks Songs, and that was

38:37

where it started. Did anybody tell you then

38:39

you could sing that? They say you're a good singer. They did

38:41

notice that I was singing harmony when I was six, And

38:45

huh, what's the first instrument you played?

38:48

Guitar? My brother turned me onto guitar when you

38:50

were how old? I guess maybe

38:52

can what's the best time you

38:54

think that. My son is two

38:56

and a half years, so it's gonna be three in June. He's

38:58

obsessed with simulating playing

39:01

the guitar. He actually has a band

39:03

with my wife. He calls her Trista,

39:06

and he's Mr Pants. Mr Pants.

39:08

He'll turn to my wife a little I've got it on video. He'll

39:10

turn to my wife and Trista, what are we gonna play

39:12

now? He's two and a half. Don't

39:15

let him be a musician. We wanted to. It's

39:17

terrible idea. He'll never have a job.

39:20

Actually let him. Do you think that

39:22

if you didn't? But when you say that, do you think if

39:24

you hadn't made it as big as you

39:26

made it, you wouldn't have stuck with it, or you would have

39:28

stayed with it because you loved it. I would because I

39:30

love it. I love it so much, like I

39:32

can't tell you I love seeing it. I'm

39:35

good at it. But that's not really it. It's

39:37

there's a joy to singing in

39:39

and of itself, and it's

39:43

it's an elevating thing. It's totally

39:45

freaking wonderful. It's very tough for me now,

39:48

man, because I'm really old and getting

39:50

on the road exhausting. Yeah, well

39:53

it beats the crap out of me. Yeah, because you'll never get more

39:55

than four hours sleep in a row. And then in

39:57

the middle of that, you had an expansion joint

39:59

and playing. You're away again and you

40:02

know, and you're eating terrible food and restaurants.

40:05

When when did you when you left home, you

40:08

didn't go to college. No, I went one year

40:10

and you went to uh

40:13

City College in Santa Barbara, which is now, oddly

40:15

enough, the highest rated city college

40:17

in the country. It was interesting and good,

40:19

and I had one really good teacher hooked

40:22

me up about some really interesting things about

40:24

semantics and the language. And no, you

40:26

weren't sending music then, then,

40:30

no, not yet. I was. I was

40:32

bussing tables at the local coffeehouse because

40:35

as a bus boy they

40:37

would let me sing harmony with the guy

40:39

who was being paid to sing. And

40:42

what was the first band you were in? Less

40:44

Baxter's Balladeers. Let's

40:46

Baxter, you know, a band leader guy. He

40:49

had seen the

40:51

Christie Mittrels, which that

40:54

guy who sparks were he was he

40:56

had I think he had three of them out their bands

40:58

like that in your old name the same you know. It just

41:01

it was a commercial operation and was really

41:05

lame. But we was put food on the table.

41:07

My brother and I were in that. And then I

41:09

ran into Roger mcgwinn and Gean Clark

41:12

and where a tributor

41:15

bar it's a tributary and they were singing

41:18

and it was good and these songs

41:20

were you know, James

41:22

pretty good writer. And so

41:24

when those two haven't they had an act called

41:27

they have an act, we're just playing. They were just in

41:29

the bar. You know, Roger has been a musician

41:31

for a while and successful and played

41:33

with other bands, Lime Letters, Chad Mitchell Three,

41:35

a bunch of different people, so he knew

41:38

what he was doing when he knew that

41:40

Jean was talented and that this stuff

41:42

had value because it sounded a lot like Beatles

41:44

songs, and uh, so I started

41:46

singing harmony to them. They said, what's your name? And

41:49

uh that worked

41:52

out really well. It was a

41:54

good band, simple good. Roger's

41:57

extremely Good had taken

41:59

Bob Dylan so and turning them into pop

42:01

records. And you covered Tambourine Man. Yeah,

42:03

that was our first hit. Well, what did you learn about

42:05

bands in your first band? What that experienced

42:08

like? I learned that

42:10

that I had a lot to learn. I

42:13

was just a young punk and I really

42:15

had no idea how to actually work

42:17

with the people and accomplished

42:20

the aim that I wanted to. I had

42:22

an experience early on when I was young. My

42:24

mom took me to see a symphony orchestra in a

42:26

park free show there in that

42:28

way, and they tuned up and they got ready,

42:31

and then he started the piece and

42:33

it was this huge, beautiful

42:35

wave that hit me. I didn't know anything

42:38

was like that. You know, symphony orchestra a hugely

42:40

powerful thing. And it freaked

42:43

me out. And the thing I've

42:45

realized even as a kid, the power came

42:48

from they were alding me together. I

42:50

can't believe you just said that. It's the truth,

42:52

and it really and it penetrated. So I've

42:54

always wanted to be in a band always.

42:57

I love cooperative effort. Competitive

43:00

effort winds up at war, cooperative

43:02

effort winds up. I'm I'm watching

43:04

Tom Petty's band playing a benefit, and Offend

43:07

was with me. I turned him and I said, do you see

43:09

what I'm seeing? Reference said

43:11

what? And I said, they're all doing the same

43:13

thing at the same time. I

43:16

said, they're all in service to and feeding.

43:19

You know, in my business, not everybody's doing the same

43:21

thing that they're kind of doing their own thing, kind of jerking off

43:23

in the corner there, you know, Patty's band was doing

43:25

the same thing. Yeah, it was really really, very very

43:27

cool. Do you find in a band does

43:29

somebody always need to be in charge? Does somebody

43:31

need to be the boss? It can go both ways,

43:34

and the birds Roger was definitely

43:36

the leader of the band, and that worked well.

43:39

Yeah, he knew a lot more than we did. And

43:41

he's also an extremely talented guy

43:44

and a good singer. And uh so it

43:46

wouldn't you know, I challenged it at

43:48

every turn, but he was the leader of

43:50

the band, uh c s

43:52

And why none of us was willing to admit anybody

43:55

else was the leader. Where it was

43:57

and probably still is one

44:00

of the most competitive situations in the history.

44:03

Uh And he

44:05

goes really just that simple,

44:08

And in spite of all the incredible

44:11

success you've had. I mean, who's when

44:13

you think of people, when you think of men harmonizing

44:17

in a group, the first people that come

44:19

to mind of the three of you, why do you think that

44:21

that didn't bring them any comforts? I

44:24

don't think that's what they went in for. And

44:26

I don't think they realized exactly

44:29

how good it was. We did really like

44:31

each other when we started, and we

44:33

were thrilled, you know, by each

44:35

other's songs. So you leave the birds

44:37

and and and and Stills leaves Buffalo Springfield

44:40

and they bring you with them Springfield

44:43

Sorrow fell Apart Left, which is kind

44:45

of his m O. Uh

44:48

Stephen was very appealing guitar player

44:50

and singer. I mean, it's really good. Remember

44:52

how well he played acoustic guitar back down beautiful,

44:55

pretty stunning, And so I started

44:57

hanging out with him, and then Cass introduced

45:00

mut the Ground. But when Nash leaves the

45:02

Hollies, the Hollies are doing very well, aren't

45:04

they very successful? Why does he leave? The Hollies

45:07

told him you did. I went

45:09

to work, I went to London. I told me she quit?

45:11

And how did you do that? We dil you quit? Why? Because

45:15

he could join us? He was

45:17

at a very crux point with the Hollies. They

45:19

wanted to do an album of Dylan

45:21

covers. Now there are bands that should

45:23

do Dylan covers and there are bands that should

45:26

not do Dylon covers. That

45:29

was one of the bands that should not do Dealing

45:31

covers. And they were ignoring his songs.

45:34

He had already written a Lady at the Island and

45:37

they didn't get it, beautiful

45:39

song. He had already been right between the eyes.

45:42

They didn't get it. He he

45:44

was already outgrowing them. So

45:46

I walked in and I said, hm, hmm, this is

45:49

pretty ordinary.

45:53

And I was funnier than they were, and I

45:55

knew more than they did, and I did it on purpose, and

45:57

they'll probably never forgive me. But it

45:59

made a great sound. We the three of us, when we heard

46:01

each other saying it was it was spectacular.

46:04

But bands get together

46:06

and you're in love with each other and so wonderful and exciting,

46:09

and then it devolves

46:12

and forty years later it's

46:15

turned on a small machine and play your heads and you don't

46:17

even like each other. You

46:19

don't write the same bus, you do not

46:21

hang out, and you are competing with

46:24

the other guys. So it's easier to

46:26

do the touring and get on stage

46:28

and get that on and get that of what than it is to be. You

46:30

don't go into a studio anymore because that's more intimate that

46:33

died quicker. Yeah, the money

46:35

is so good on the road in a band like that, you

46:38

know that you you won't

46:40

stay there. It means big crowds, big places,

46:42

big deal you can get. Yeah, but it

46:44

got to pomer is no fun? Is it about when

46:46

it starts to crack, when it starts to shift?

46:49

Is it because of songwriting? No one's getting

46:51

that too. Wants

46:53

to see my songs. I want my songs on that album.

46:56

Who's the decider? Did you guys acquiesced to producers?

46:59

No? Uh, we always produced

47:01

our records and uh and are we

47:04

had what we call the reality rule. You come

47:06

into the room, you know, just

47:08

us, nobody else and seeing

47:10

each other song and they either liked

47:12

it didn't and uh, if

47:15

they liked it, you know, then we start figuring

47:17

out how to sing it. And these

47:19

are hugely talented guys. Man, they

47:22

came with a lot of stuff. So before it was the four of you,

47:24

the three of you was basically pretty good. Yeah,

47:26

it was okay, you know. Uh. Neil's

47:29

nickname is sometimes it's

47:32

CSN sometimes why you

47:34

know, uh, and when it would be C.

47:37

S and Y, it was a lot bigger that

47:39

You've got to know that that's the reason

47:41

to see us and has always Neil's decision,

47:44

because if there's twenty thousand people in the stadium, Neil

47:46

put ten of them there. That's

47:49

the truth. And so he's

47:51

he's the one that's that's said,

47:54

that's it's done. He doesn't want to do that anymore.

47:57

And I don't think he needs to to see

47:59

us someone. I don't think you'll ever see it again. When you say

48:01

he's sometimes and he comes and goes. Is that

48:03

his nature in all things? He just has to tough time committing

48:06

to anything. No, he's on his

48:08

own path and he

48:11

does not relinquish that ever,

48:14

under any circumstances. And

48:17

uh, he does not want to be dependent

48:19

on anybody else and probably

48:21

doesn't want to explain the money. I

48:24

don't know. I've never asked him, but I

48:26

know he I think you

48:29

know I had to come to this decision. It's a very hard decision,

48:31

man, This is a very hard time for us. I

48:33

don't know if you know this, but streaming pretty

48:36

much destroyed our earning

48:38

power. It took half, at least

48:41

half of our earning power away from us

48:43

because they folks, they don't pay us

48:45

for records anymore. And that's

48:47

really sad. Uh, they

48:49

got that deal passes and they it's

48:51

sort of this if you worked your job and they

48:54

paid you a nickel for every two weeks. It's

48:57

the proportion is drastically tiny.

49:00

So with Neil

49:02

gone and cs

49:04

N still earning but really

49:08

frozen in place and really

49:10

unpleasant I mean incidents

49:13

that I will not tell you about, but violently

49:17

bad, carefully chosen

49:20

more my

49:40

thanks again to David Crosby.

49:43

We presented several of our shows

49:46

live, and one of my favorites

49:48

was with director William Freakin. Thank you

49:50

very much, good evening, recorded at

49:52

the Turner Classic Movie Film Festival. Freakin

49:56

is one of the most entertaining storytellers

49:58

I've ever sat down with. Here he is

50:00

following a screening of The French Connection.

50:03

We then sent it to Jane Fonda,

50:06

who sent us all the same

50:08

telegram that said, why

50:11

would I want to be in a piece of capitalist

50:13

rip off bullshit like this? Now

50:17

I've seen her since and she doesn't remember

50:19

having sent that, but

50:22

I haven't. That

50:25

was her response, that I don't

50:27

know how she really felt, but that was her

50:30

response. He was honest. Yeah.

50:33

Meanwhile, Ellen Burston was hockeing

50:35

me all the time. I

50:38

had seen the Last Picture Show,

50:40

but I didn't know Ellen Burston

50:43

from Claris Leachman. I didn't know which

50:45

was which. But Ellen said

50:48

to me, do you believe in destiny?

50:52

Has anyone ever asked you that before?

50:55

Uh? No, Well, she

50:57

was the only one who ever asked me that. And

51:00

I said, well, I guess I believe, And she said,

51:02

I'm destined to play this part. I

51:05

said, look, with the studio wants Jane

51:07

Fonda and Bancroft or Audrey

51:09

Hepburn. This was all going on. She

51:12

said, I don't care. I'm destined to play

51:14

this part. And it came

51:16

about that she was the last person

51:18

standing, and so we

51:21

cast her against the

51:24

wishes of the studio. They

51:26

did not They wanted a big star

51:28

for that um. Then

51:31

we cast Stacy

51:34

Keach to play Father Carris. He

51:37

was a great is a great

51:39

actor. He was the go to Eugene

51:42

O'Neill actor on Broadway.

51:44

And what happened. I

51:46

went to New York and maybe

51:51

it was that no, but no, we

51:53

cast her. I went to New York

51:56

and I saw the opening night

51:58

of a play call that Championship

52:01

Season, and it was written

52:04

by a man named Jason Miller. Never heard

52:06

of him. Uh. I thought the play

52:08

was great. It was it

52:11

really reeked of lapsed

52:14

Catholicism. It was a play

52:16

about a group of high school guys who won

52:18

a championship under their coach,

52:22

but cheated to win and

52:24

they were suffering this guilt and the

52:26

stage was just filled

52:30

with Catholic guild. I felt.

52:33

So, I I said to my casting

52:35

director, who was this guy that wrote this. I'd

52:37

love to talk to him, just to talk to him.

52:40

It turned out that he had studied

52:43

for the Priesthood three years

52:45

at Catholic University in Georgetown.

52:48

He came up to meet me in in

52:51

I was staying at the Sherry Netherlands Hotel

52:54

and I had the flu and I had a

52:56

lot of pills. He thought I was a pill

52:58

freak, and uh, I

53:01

thought he was a drunk. And he

53:04

didn't know what the hell he was doing up

53:06

there. And I asked him a lot of questions

53:08

about studying for the Priesthood and stuff,

53:10

and it was a horrible meeting.

53:13

And I went back to Los Angeles and

53:16

about two weeks later, as

53:18

we're starting to prepare the picture,

53:21

he called me at Warner Brothers

53:24

and he said, hey, you know that that book

53:26

you were telling me about that You're going to film that

53:28

Exorcist? He said, I said

53:30

yeah. He said, I am that guy. He

53:33

said, I am that character.

53:35

I said, well, you're not Stacy

53:39

Keach is that he's going to play the

53:41

part. He said, I'm telling you, man,

53:44

I am this guy. And he

53:46

said, have you ever done anything like a

53:49

screen test? And I said no, I've never

53:51

shot a screen test. And what's the point.

53:54

I told you, we've cast this. He had

53:56

never made a film, never been in a

53:58

movie, only play a very

54:00

small acting roles in

54:03

a road road companies. He

54:05

was delivering milk in Flushing,

54:07

New York when he wrote Championship

54:11

Season, and so

54:14

he said, you gotta test me. You have

54:16

to give me a screen test. I

54:18

said, why, what a waste of

54:21

time? He said, Man, I'm telling

54:23

you so. I had great respect

54:25

for him as a writer. I said, you want to

54:27

shoot a screen test? Okay, you

54:30

come out here on your own. You

54:32

get out here. It was like, let's

54:34

say it was a Tuesday.

54:37

I said him, get out here by

54:39

Thursday, and I'll shoot a

54:41

screen test with you, and i'll

54:43

take it out of the camera and give it to you

54:46

so you can show it to your kids. And

54:49

uh, he said, oh, I can't get out

54:51

there Thursday. I said, what do you mean.

54:53

He said, I don't fly. He said,

54:56

I'll take the train. I'll be out there in a week,

54:59

all right. So I

55:02

set up an

55:04

empty stage with a

55:06

great cinematographer named

55:09

Bill Freaker, and

55:12

I had cast Burston and

55:14

I said, look, we're gonna do a test

55:17

to this guy, and let's do

55:19

the scene where you first

55:22

meet him in a little park in Georgetown

55:25

and you tell him that you think your daughter

55:27

is possessed. And she

55:29

said, what, why are we doing this? You've got a great

55:31

actor. I said, I don't know why we're doing this.

55:34

And I swear to God, I didn't We

55:37

shoot the test, no sets,

55:40

just Bill Freaker lighting in

55:42

an empty studio, and

55:45

they did that scene one take.

55:48

And then I had Ellen Uh

55:51

interview Jason with

55:53

the camera over her shoulder on him,

55:56

where she just asked him questions about

55:58

his life, who he was, what

56:01

his background was, his family, everything,

56:04

And then I shot

56:06

a very tight close up of him saying

56:09

the Mass, but not saying

56:11

it the way you used to hear

56:13

it. Maybe you still do in church where

56:16

the priest just rattles that off, you

56:18

know, the name of the Fathers a little book.

56:20

I said, I would say the words

56:23

of the Mass as though you really

56:25

mean them, and well,

56:27

you mean every word, and and

56:30

say it, Uh with as much

56:32

conviction as you can, and

56:34

take your time, and I shot that

56:36

in the close up, and we did that and

56:39

I wasn't sure about

56:41

anything, but Burston

56:43

came over to me and said, you're

56:46

not going to hire this guy, are you? And

56:48

I said, well why not? She said

56:50

he can't act. He said he's

56:52

not an actor, he can't act. And

56:55

she said, when I tell

56:59

father there caress this story

57:01

about my daughter, I have to break

57:04

down and collapse in his arms, and

57:06

I need a big strong man

57:09

to do that. It happened that she had was

57:11

going with a big strong man at that time

57:14

who was an actor that she wanted me to

57:16

consider. But uh,

57:19

she said, this guy is about five six.

57:23

I said, you're probably right. And

57:25

the next morning I saw

57:27

the dailies and the camera

57:30

just loved this guy. The camera

57:32

just loved him. He looked

57:34

great, he was real. And I went

57:37

to Warner Brothers and I said, we're

57:39

gonna pay off Stacy Keach

57:41

and hire this guy. And they said,

57:44

you're out of your mind. What is

57:46

wrong with you? You're crazy,

57:49

but you're possessed, Yes,

57:52

something like that. I didn't want to do it, the

57:54

writer didn't want to do it. Uh,

57:57

nobody wanted to do it. But I said, this

57:59

is what we're gonna do, and that's what we did.

58:03

And he was brilliant, incredible.

58:05

You said that, Nichols said, no twelve

58:08

year old could carry that film. How did you solve

58:10

that problem? You yourself with Linda

58:12

Blair. H Nichols

58:17

was wrong because he had not met

58:19

Linda Blair. We we had cat

58:22

We had auditioned several

58:24

thousand girls. They were put on tape

58:27

from all across the country by

58:29

casting directors, and I

58:32

must have looked at five hundred of them

58:34

myself, just a minute or

58:36

two and then out, and

58:38

it appeared that there was nobody

58:41

who could play this part who

58:44

was twelve years old. And I

58:46

had reached a point where I felt like that

58:48

we couldn't make the picture. You could

58:50

not find a twelve year old girl who

58:53

a would understand all this stuff

58:56

or be not be scarred by

58:58

it, maybe for the rest of her

59:00

life. And I didn't see

59:03

that possibility in any of

59:05

the audition tapes. We

59:08

started to look at sixteen year

59:10

olds who looked younger, and

59:13

fifteen year olds, and one day my

59:16

assistant in New York said, there's

59:18

a woman out here who has brought her daughter.

59:21

Her name is Eleanor Blair, and

59:23

she doesn't have an appointment. Would

59:26

you see her? And I said, okay,

59:29

why not? Because we were striking out

59:31

all over the place. In came

59:33

this little girl with her mother. She

59:35

was twelve, and I

59:38

knew immediately that she

59:41

was the girl instantly she

59:43

sat down. She had never acted.

59:46

She had done those things that you see

59:49

like in the New York Daily News, in these newspapers

59:52

with girls model coats

59:54

and little dresses or shoes

59:57

or something. She had done that, but no

59:59

acting. So she sat down

1:00:01

with her mother and I am she

1:00:03

was a straight A student in

1:00:06

Westport, Connecticut, and she

1:00:08

was had one blue ribbons showing

1:00:11

horses at Madison Square Garden.

1:00:14

But had never acted. But I

1:00:16

said to her, Linda, do you know anything

1:00:19

about this story? Do you know anything about

1:00:21

the the Exorcist story? And

1:00:23

she said, oh yes, I read the book

1:00:26

as she did. She said yes, and I looked

1:00:28

at her mother. Mother nodded, and

1:00:31

I said, what what is it about? And

1:00:33

she said, well, it's about a little girl

1:00:35

who gets possessed by a devil and

1:00:38

she does a whole bunch of bad things. I

1:00:40

said, well, like what and she said,

1:00:42

well, she hits her mother

1:00:44

across the face, and she

1:00:47

pushes a man out of her bedroom window,

1:00:50

and she masturbates with a crucifix.

1:00:53

And I said, uh. I looked

1:00:56

at her. Mother was smiling and

1:00:59

I said, you know what that means. She

1:01:01

said what I said to to to masturbate?

1:01:04

And she said it was like jerking

1:01:06

off, isn't it? And I

1:01:09

said yes. Mother

1:01:11

was still smiling, and

1:01:14

I said to her, have you ever done

1:01:16

that? Have you ever done

1:01:19

what you just said? She said, sure,

1:01:21

haven't you? And

1:01:24

so I hired her. My

1:01:32

thanks again to William Friedkin. I

1:01:34

think you can understand why that's one of my

1:01:36

favorite shows. Tune in

1:01:38

next time for part two of my farewell

1:01:41

compilation show. Again, my thanks

1:01:43

to Barbara Streisan, Joe Delessandro, Elaine

1:01:46

Stretch, David Crosby and William Friedkin

1:01:48

join us next time. Thank you,