0:02

I'm Alec Baldwin, and you're listening

0:04

to Here's the thing. Cities

0:07

live and die by housing policy

0:09

and transportation policy. Everything

0:12

else is tinkering around the edges. Today,

0:15

I'm talking transit with three people

0:17

who have thought a lot about the current mess

0:20

that we call the New York City transportation

0:22

system. New York City

0:24

Council speaker and two thousand

0:26

twenty one mayoral candidate Corey

0:29

Johnson Tom Wright, the

0:31

head of the century old Regional Plan

0:33

Association, and journalist

0:36

Nicole Jelinas, who's also

0:38

a scholar of urban economics at

0:40

the Manhattan Institute. Johnson

0:44

wants to blow up the Metropolitan Transportation

0:47

Authority, the most basic body

0:49

in charge of New York transit today.

0:51

The mt A board is appointed by

0:53

the governor. Johnson would split

0:56

off buses and subways into

0:58

a new agency called Big app Transit,

1:01

with the buck stopping clearly with

1:03

the mayor meaning him, he

1:05

hopes. At the Regional

1:07

Plan Association, Tom Wright has spent

1:09

his career thinking about how to improve

1:12

how cities run. The r

1:14

p A also wants to break up

1:16

the m t A and fundamentally rethink

1:19

housing and transit in New York. The

1:22

coolech Alimas is the person best

1:24

suited to keep Corey and Tom's

1:27

big ideas in check. She

1:29

believes in big changes as much as the

1:31

other two. But for years she

1:33

has told us again and again, we

1:35

will not get a transit system worthy

1:38

of our great city if we cannot

1:40

get costs under control and our

1:42

financial house in order. The

1:45

Metropolitan Transportation Authority

1:47

is the single most important factor

1:50

in whether New York succeeds

1:52

or fails. When New York

1:54

had its crises of the late sixties,

1:57

throughout the seventies, and then the early eighties,

2:00

crisis began with the city

2:02

losing its way and transportation.

2:05

When the transit system fails, new York

2:07

fails. If you cannot get people to work,

2:09

get people to school, the city's economy

2:11

does not do well. It is the mission,

2:14

and I'll say this to Tom, is the mission of the

2:16

m T A unchanged from sixty or

2:19

how has that evolved since then? The goal

2:21

was to get people on public transportation. Can't move everybody

2:24

around by car? Is the mission the same? Basically?

2:26

Yeah, it basically is. And part of the problem

2:29

is that there was this idea that there would be

2:31

a synergy between having the subways

2:34

and the buses and the Long Island Railroad

2:36

and Metro North all under one umbrella,

2:38

and that we would have a kind of coordinated, integrated

2:41

metropolitan system. The truth is the

2:43

m t A it ain't metropolitan because

2:45

it doesn't look at the entire metropolitan region. It doesn't

2:48

pay attention to New Jersey. It

2:50

ain't really transportation because it's only parts

2:52

of the system. The buses are running on city

2:54

streets. And it isn't really an authority

2:56

because an authority means to those of us

2:58

in kind of public service. An authority

3:00

should be a self funded entity.

3:03

Like the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey does

3:05

not get annual handouts from

3:07

New York and New Jersey. It's self financed

3:09

from the operations, whereas the m t A

3:12

is unable to do that, and

3:14

so it has to go hat in hand every year.

3:16

Back to see the Port Authority is self funny. You're

3:18

talking about fees they charge at the Gates Institute

3:21

airlines, at the airport. It makes an enormous

3:23

amount of money from the airports and people driving

3:25

across the Hudson River, and it takes that

3:27

money and it runs the airports and those crossings,

3:29

and it subsidizes the path system and

3:31

the Port authority, bus terminal and other operations.

3:34

But they have a huge amount

3:36

of debt, but they're able to to serve it with the

3:38

cash flow that they generate on what percentage

3:40

is debt service? Oh, we're

3:43

gonna get to that. I

3:45

think the same as it's it's it's

3:47

lower than the m T as I'm pretty sure Nicoles the expert

3:49

on these issues. Yeah, I haven't looked at the port throw in

3:51

a while. I think it's around temper. That's

3:53

what I would half of what the right

3:56

now some would wonder. And again you can educate

3:58

us about this as well, Nicole. At

4:00

one point in the seventies and the Ford to

4:02

New York dropped dead period where the city

4:05

files for bankruptcy, the city goes

4:07

into receivership with Albany.

4:09

Albany is in charge and the city can't really

4:11

do very much of what it wants to do in these large projects

4:13

and and and beyond that. And I'm not trying

4:15

to point a finger at City Hall or Albany,

4:18

but was was it as bad before

4:20

the receivership in seventy five or

4:22

to get it to get worse once Albany

4:24

was calling all the shots in the city.

4:27

It got a little bit worse after nine

4:30

and then it started to get better. The

4:32

subway system failing was part

4:35

of what led up to New York's

4:37

financial distress and to take over

4:39

essentially by Albany and the federal

4:42

government of New York's finances for

4:45

quite a long time actually, and

4:48

the problem with New York City's

4:50

approach to the subway and bus system

4:52

is that from the nineteen

4:54

forties well into the nineteen

4:56

sixties and seventies, the city's

4:58

focus was on keep the fair down.

5:01

There was a nickel fair for a long time. Then

5:03

it went up to a dime. It was less

5:05

and less able to cover the operating

5:08

costs. But mayors from Wagner

5:10

to lindsay for very good reason,

5:12

they wanted to keep the fair low because

5:15

they wanted poor people, working class

5:17

people, middle class people to stay on the

5:19

subway. They thought, if we

5:21

right, if we increase the fair too much, more

5:24

people are going to leave the city. They're going

5:26

to get in their cars and go to the suburbs.

5:28

But the problem with the focus on the fair

5:31

was that there was no focus

5:33

on capital investment. That they

5:35

needed to increase the fair and they needed

5:38

some tax revenues to buy new

5:40

subways, air conditioned subways. We're gonna have to

5:42

raise money at some point, right buy new buses,

5:44

repair the tracks, repair the same When

5:47

did they start doing that, well, they that changed

5:49

in the early nineteen eighties

5:51

when finally trains were breaking

5:53

down every twenty thousand miles,

5:56

very frequent for someone

5:58

to be kicked off the subway train

6:00

and be stuck on the platform because the doors

6:02

on the train wouldn't close, and so very frustrating

6:04

commutes for people. And in the early

6:07

nineteen eighties, uh Dick Ravitch,

6:09

who was the mt A chairman at the time, convinced

6:12

the governor convinced the state legislative

6:14

slature in Albany that they needed

6:17

to approve a package of taxes

6:19

to support the m t A start

6:21

to rebuild the capitol. Yes,

6:24

and the business community was on board with

6:26

this, and it was a signal to New York

6:28

that we're not going to give up

6:31

on the city. We're gonna double down and we're

6:33

gonna rebuild the physical infrastructure

6:35

that the city needs to thrive again. And

6:37

starting in the eighties, as soon as they made

6:40

these first investments, population

6:42

of the city started to grow, tax based

6:44

started to grow again, and that was the

6:46

only thing that made it possible

6:48

for us to turn around the crime situation

6:51

and other problems starting in the early nineties.

6:53

How would you describe Let me ask this to Corey,

6:55

what's the city's relationship to Albany now? But

6:58

it's still in the same position. It wasn't seventy No,

7:00

I mean, there was a financial control

7:02

board that was put in place to oversee New York

7:05

City, and the financial control it still

7:07

exists. It hasn't been phased out. But we

7:09

are not in the same position in any way as we were

7:11

now. We are the economic engine for

7:14

New York State. And I've been on the City Council

7:16

for five and a half years. I was elected in two thousand

7:19

and thirteen, and the first budget process

7:21

that I went through in the middle of two

7:23

thousand and fourteen, our city's budget was

7:25

around seventy three billion dollars

7:28

with a B. The upcoming budget we're voting

7:30

on in the next couple of weeks is now ninety

7:33

two and a half billion dollars, almost

7:35

twenty billion dollars in growth in

7:37

less than six years. It used to not

7:40

be that way, and the times that we're talking about,

7:42

what the financial crisis, with the subways

7:44

deteriorating, with Central Park being

7:46

an unsafe place, and so now we

7:48

give more to Albany every year

7:51

than we get back, just like the exactly

7:54

as New York ss the Washington We

7:56

are a donor city to Albany,

7:59

and New York State is a donor state

8:01

to Washington. And so now part of the reason

8:03

why it's happened since a great recession in two thousand

8:05

and nine, when there was a major downturn, we've

8:08

seen seven and eighty thousand private sector

8:10

jobs created in New York City, unemployments

8:13

at an all time low three point nine percent,

8:15

Tourism the highest level ever recorded

8:18

last year at over sixty six million

8:20

tourists. So if you looked at New York City on a piece

8:22

of paper, by the numbers, you would say,

8:24

hot, damn, the city is doing really well.

8:27

But when you dig into the finances of the

8:29

m t A, when you look at the number of homeless

8:31

children in our school system, if you look at

8:33

what's happening, uh, just on poverty

8:36

numbers in New York City, there is still a

8:38

long way to go. But I think, as Nicole

8:40

and Tom both said, the future of New

8:43

York City, the way we can gain further

8:45

economic growth is through investing

8:47

in mass transit. It's the lifeblood

8:49

of New York City. And the m t A has become

8:51

a political hot potato where if

8:53

something good happens, people stand up

8:55

and say I'm in charge, and when something

8:58

bad happens, they say it

9:00

not me. Go to that board that no one

9:02

knows a single person who serves

9:04

on the board, and blame it on them. And

9:06

the m t A is far too important to

9:08

be put in the middle like that, which is why I'm

9:11

grateful we have someone like Andy Byford, who

9:13

was a world class guy, who has come in and

9:15

I think is moving the system in the right direction.

9:18

Let me let me highlight that. I mean, in the seventies

9:20

and eighties and nineties you were talking about those

9:22

bad old days, and I remember Central Park when you didn't

9:24

go in after dusk. Back then, for every

9:26

ten jobs created in the metropolitan region

9:29

around New York City kind of southwestern Connecticut,

9:31

Long Island, northern New Jersey, nine of them

9:33

were outside New York and one of them was inside

9:36

New York City. It was a suburbanizing economy,

9:38

is Nicole was talking about. New York

9:40

was trying and failing to compete with the

9:42

suburbs, and that's where all of the growth

9:44

of jobs and prosperity was occurring

9:47

for the last ten years, not only as

9:49

New York suddenly caught up with the rest of the region.

9:51

Today, nine out of ten new jobs created

9:53

are in the five boroughs of New York City,

9:56

and it's parts of northern New Jersey and Long

9:58

Island and Connecticut that aren't keeping

10:00

up. And so this this economic

10:02

boom has been really terrific for the city and

10:04

its finances, but still all

10:07

many controls things. I mean, we just passed,

10:09

you know, congestion pricing, which we

10:11

think is a great policy, which will mean that people will

10:13

pay to drive into Manhattan south of sixtieth

10:16

Street, and that will generate money from mass transit. And

10:18

that's all very well and good, But the truth

10:20

is the city had no control over this. It

10:22

was up to Albany, and it was up to legislators

10:24

in Buffalo and Niagara to decide whether

10:27

or not that's right. No, of course it's not

10:29

right. But it's a legacy of this of the

10:31

bankrupt and I want to go around, and I want to go around the room.

10:33

And I'll continue with you, Tom. And that

10:35

is about congestion pricing. Now, I think congestion

10:38

pricing is a horrible idea. I think it's

10:40

an awful idea. And the reason I think it's an

10:42

awful idea is it punishes people who It's

10:45

a continuation, in my mind of my least favorite

10:47

condition of living in New York, and that is the residents

10:50

of New York come last. People

10:52

who live here and this is their home, and

10:54

they pay taxes to live here as citizens

10:57

of the Five Bros. They come dead,

11:00

asked in the decisions that are made. And

11:02

congestion pricing should not punish

11:04

a person who lives in the Five Brooks. But if you live

11:06

along Island or Rockland, or Philly

11:08

or Delaware, they're commuting from all these different places

11:10

to come to New York to do a business. And you're gonna ride,

11:12

single person in the car, We're gonna hit you so hard

11:15

you're gonna pass out with the with the charge.

11:17

What's wrong with that idea? Basically, what's

11:19

going through is very consistent with what you said.

11:22

Most of the people who are driving into Manhattan

11:24

south of sixtieth Street are coming from Westchester,

11:26

from Fairfield County, from Nassau County.

11:29

That's who. That's the vast majority of the people

11:31

who are going to be paying into the system in

11:33

the first place, and right now they've been getting

11:35

a free ride. And worse than that, there are some routes

11:37

that are charged and others that are free, and

11:40

so a lot of them are doing what we call toll shopping,

11:42

and they're driving out of their way

11:44

to get in through the free Brooklyn Bridge.

11:47

A quarter of the people on the b Que this

11:49

morning, really we're coming from South

11:52

Brooklyn, and the most direct route for them to get into

11:54

Manhattan would have been the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel,

11:56

but instead they drove across the b

11:58

Que to get over to the Brooklyn Bridge

12:01

and take the free crossing in. It makes no sense

12:03

right now. As Tom said, if you take the

12:06

Battery Brooklyn Tunnel you currently

12:08

pay a toll, but if you take the Brooklyn

12:10

Manhattan or Williamsburg Bridge you don't pay

12:12

a toll. If you take the Lincoln Hall and Tunnel

12:15

you do pay a toll. So it was a

12:17

piecemeal, screwed up approach

12:20

that we're trying to bring some sanity to and

12:22

the real questionnaires. You have to make these difficult

12:24

public policy decisions when you have a system

12:26

that is failing and needs a permanent revenue stream

12:29

and six sixplomatic

12:33

parking too. Well, they've

12:37

got the money, but but six

12:39

million people take the subways and busses every single

12:42

day. And there's been an analysis done. If you look

12:44

at Queens and Brooklyn and

12:46

the Bronx SAT now is different

12:48

because they don't have an extensive rail system.

12:50

But if you look at the three outer boroughs, the

12:53

vast, vast, vast majority of

12:56

people that are coming into Manhattan every single day

12:58

below sixty Street are currently

13:00

doing it by subway already.

13:02

So let's improve the subway service with

13:05

a reliable revenue stream for those

13:07

people. Yes, what Corey

13:10

and Tom say is correct if

13:12

and this is a big if, if the m

13:14

t A implements congestion pricing

13:17

correctly on both sides of

13:19

the equation, cutting congestion and

13:22

spending the money on projects that actually improved

13:25

the transit system. On the congestion

13:27

side, they're already overwhelmed

13:29

with requests for exemptions.

13:32

The people who work for the m t A,

13:35

they wanted a congestion an exemption

13:37

for the congestion charge

13:41

exactly, not just when they're on duty,

13:43

but just when they're driving to their workspace.

13:46

The undergoing to set exactly.

13:48

Other other city unions are going

13:50

to want the same exception exceptions,

13:52

police, fire, santation, teachers driving

13:55

their private cars into the city are

13:57

going to want to be exempt from this charge.

13:59

And you know they do wonderful work.

14:02

But everyone who works in the city does wonderful

14:04

work, private sector, public sector, low paid,

14:06

well paid. If we give one exemption,

14:09

you almost have to approve them all because everyone

14:11

has some reason why they shouldn't pay the charge.

14:14

I mean we all do so either do no exemptions

14:17

or don't have the program.

14:20

The number of exemptions that are being lobbied for right

14:22

now, congestion pricing will look like a

14:24

gigantic piece of Swiss cheese. It would be

14:26

like every thing that happens in New York. The tour bus

14:29

operators are asking for one is if they don't cause

14:31

any traffic congestion. Now

14:33

are the web of contractors who are

14:35

bidding for mt A projects, not just

14:38

the Second Avenue debaccle, but other things like

14:40

that. Is it a kind of a uh,

14:42

the usual suspects that are coming, Like what

14:45

prevents a person in charge Albany

14:47

or city Hall to turn around and fire

14:50

every single one of them and say,

14:52

you know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna get housing in New Jersey.

14:54

I'm gonna bring a bunch of Amish people here. But

14:57

Robert Moses had them pitched ten

15:00

on the frozen Zack's Bay

15:02

and the workers work through the dead of winter.

15:04

So the beach house that Joe, I mean, I read Carol's

15:06

book, so the Jones Beach could open on time

15:09

for that summer. I'm not sure we're going back

15:11

to that. I wouldn't

15:13

go back to that. I would have them pitch

15:15

tents on the frozen reservoir in

15:17

Central Park May They're gonna all live there. But my

15:19

point is is what's gonna

15:21

stop. What's going to stop the hemorrhage

15:24

of the sickening contract Because

15:26

as we all know, certain politicians,

15:28

mostly north of the city have

15:31

a have a very sweetheart relationship with

15:33

the unions and want them to and want to appease

15:35

them. What's your answer for how we

15:37

lower these costs? Everybody

15:39

benefits from the current system

15:42

except for the average New

15:44

Yorker. The contractors benefit

15:46

because a lot of the global contractors,

15:49

the companies that are actually good at doing this

15:51

in France and Spain and Japan, they

15:54

won't bid on our projects because the

15:56

system just intimidates them, and rightly

15:58

so whenever they bid, for example, they're

16:01

afraid of our union work rules. France,

16:04

Germany, Japan, all countries

16:06

with first world's work rules. They treat

16:08

their workers well in terms of healthcare, in terms

16:10

of working conditions, but they don't

16:13

have the byzantine work rules that

16:15

are rich. In

16:18

the end, it takes political

16:20

leadership, like if you look at the Long Island

16:22

railroad work rules for example, that are

16:24

pushing up over time, where people

16:26

are making quintuple their incomes

16:29

in their last few years of work by essentially

16:31

working around to manipulate. Yeah,

16:33

these are due to the work rules. Their work

16:35

rules have been enshrined in the contracts

16:37

for fifty years. In order

16:40

to change them, the governor

16:42

or the mayor, if we put the mayor in charge of them

16:45

right now, the governor in the

16:47

governor's responsibility to address that. The governor

16:50

has to decide he'll take a strike

16:52

that he's willing to take. The

16:54

uh. Short term pain of

16:57

people having a much more difficult time

17:00

vents him from firing every single one of them and

17:02

replacing them with the starting another car. What prevents

17:05

an emergency financial measure

17:07

in which a state where city entity gets

17:09

sit there and go, we just don't have the money anymore.

17:12

I really don't care how you feel about

17:14

it. You work for us. I'm not asking

17:16

you what to do. I'm telling you what to

17:18

do. Right do than that happen In the end,

17:21

it comes down to the political

17:23

willingness and donations from those unions. A

17:25

short term hit. It's not even so

17:28

much donations. I mean, Cuomo is very

17:30

close to the Transport Workers Union,

17:32

which is the subway and bus union. Not

17:34

so much because he needs the money, although

17:36

money is always useful, but because he

17:39

wants the votes. This is a very reliable

17:42

voting block. A vote is worth

17:44

a lot of money goes hand in hand with a vote

17:46

is worth a lot more than a dollar. I mean, they spend

17:48

dollars four votes, So if you can get the

17:50

votes directly, that's much better from the governor's

17:53

perspective. Tw this union

17:55

helped the governor tremendously during

17:57

his primary fight with Cynthia Nixon a few

18:00

years ago. But I just want to jump in here, and I'm not saying

18:02

I don't believe this is what Nicole was saying, But I

18:04

want to be clear. I don't think I think

18:06

it would be easy to scapegoat and vilify

18:09

the workers who work

18:11

on the subways and buses every single day.

18:14

And for a lot of these folks, this has been

18:16

a pathway to the middle class, to a

18:19

pension, to healthcare. And

18:21

I don't think they're the real problems here.

18:23

I think part of the problem here is

18:25

that you've had at the m t A for

18:27

years and years and years major major

18:30

mismanagement. You haven't had

18:32

oversight on contracting. I'll give one

18:34

primary example, east Side

18:36

Access, which is the UH MEGA

18:39

project which going to connect UH,

18:43

yes, exactly UH. And that project

18:45

is eleven billion dollars over budget.

18:48

Eleven billion dollars over budget. It's

18:50

not eleven billion dollars over budget because of the

18:52

subways and bus workers. It's because of the

18:54

broken, collusive contracting

18:57

system and bid system that exists.

19:00

The amount to re signal the entire

19:02

subway system so that we could have state

19:04

of the arts signaling and cut down and delays is

19:07

nine billion, So we could have taken

19:09

that eleven billion dollars in the cost overrun and

19:11

already re signaled the entire system.

19:14

The Brooke closer to exactly.

19:17

We can't even have a conversation right now

19:19

about expanding the subway system.

19:21

You've got a few stations and Second Avenue, you've got

19:23

the one station at Hudson Yards, which was

19:26

unique. But you can't have a conversation about the Utica

19:28

extension in Brooklyn and the other places

19:30

to expand where they're transit deserts when you

19:32

get have two fresh meadows in South Brooklyn

19:35

and other places. Because we are constantly

19:37

treading water and trying to just

19:39

keep things going, and you can't have a

19:42

conversation going forward and provide a little

19:44

more context. Eric Garciti the mayor

19:46

of Los Angeles right now, he was able to

19:48

pass by selling it to the voters

19:50

a multibillion dollar bond on subway

19:52

expansion. Now l a Is, you know, is not a

19:55

subway city, but they're trying to become one.

19:57

Rama Manuel just left office in Chicago

20:00

and one of the highlights of his final

20:02

term was improving subway

20:04

service there. Andy Biford

20:06

was in Toronto, Sydney, London,

20:09

places where they did this type

20:11

of expansive work, and we can't

20:13

have that conversation in New York because

20:15

of how broken the system is. Now let me just

20:17

interject, you announced your running from

20:20

mayor, and of course I

20:23

don't fault you for wanting to not scapegoat

20:26

the union transit workers and say

20:28

that the problem was more the

20:30

contracting process and so forth. But

20:33

nonetheless, many unions

20:35

get into that whole gouging thing where it's like, you know, quadruple

20:38

overtime to the last three years to get the

20:40

sweetheart pension. Do you agree that's

20:42

got to stop? Yeah? But part

20:44

of the problem right now, and this has been

20:46

I think part of the issue at the very public fight you've

20:48

seen on the mt A board and

20:51

with the governor on the long unmoored overtime.

20:53

It's hard to defend those overtime numbers.

20:56

But these these are the overtime rules

20:58

that the m t A set up themselves.

21:00

So the union is taking advantage

21:02

of the rules that were given to that. But I

21:05

appreciate that. I'm saying, if you set up a set of rules,

21:08

of course they're not going to say no. But eventually

21:10

someone's got to say no. I have found

21:13

that in most instances, at least recently.

21:15

And it's different now because economic

21:17

times have been going well, so the city

21:19

has a lot of money. But most

21:22

unions are willing to make a sacrifice,

21:24

and there is a trade that gets involved.

21:26

They may take a hit on healthcare, but

21:29

they don't want to bag a hit on the pensions. It's

21:31

always a sort of a little bit of a trade back

21:33

and forth. And I think if you sit

21:35

down and you have a conversation and you

21:38

say this is what we need and the

21:40

public understands what the need

21:42

is, I think most times, uh, most

21:44

of the union leaders are willing to do that. I think John Samuelson

21:46

at t W is actually a pretty pragmatic

21:49

guy and he's someone that you can work with.

21:51

He's not someone who's out there being irresponsible.

21:54

And I think you need to sit down, get around at table.

21:56

But again, I want to get back to the big thing here, which is

21:59

the m t A is set up to deflect

22:01

any level of accountability. So

22:03

we can talk about all these super important issues

22:05

on repairing, contracting, and

22:08

on negotiating with unions and expanding

22:10

the subway system. But until you get

22:12

down to the fundamental issue of singular

22:14

accountability and responsibility,

22:17

everyone is always going to be able to point fingers,

22:19

which is why I called for municipal control. I

22:21

agree with you piggybacking on that the

22:24

roads in the city, and it is appalling.

22:26

The roads are better in Lima, Peru

22:28

than they are in New York City. They finished fiction the

22:30

roads on my block, and two weeks

22:33

after they had the gutted, pitted,

22:35

bombed out preparations

22:38

done, and then and they went and laid the roads on their

22:40

Two weeks later they started cutting it up for some utility

22:42

start of chopping it up again. I had a meeting about this

22:44

yesterday, this fairy topic not and not to get too granular,

22:47

but one of the big issues if we're talking about contracting

22:49

that New York City is run into, is that when

22:51

you want to restripe the roads after the paving,

22:54

you can't restripe the roads for weeks, which

22:56

is like the most basic thing a government

22:58

should be able to do in a city. Can't why because

23:01

none of the striping is done by the city.

23:04

The striping is done by outside private

23:06

contractors who have set up a

23:09

collusive industry on

23:11

how to gouge the city by all

23:13

working together. And so these are big

23:15

issues that affect basic municipal services.

23:22

New York City Council Speaker Corey Johnson

23:25

with him our Regional Plan Association

23:28

President and CEO Tom

23:30

Wright, and journalist Nicole

23:32

Jelinas. If you like thinking

23:35

about how New York works, you'll

23:37

love my conversation with Martin Horne,

23:40

who has had just about every job imaginable

23:43

in New York City corrections, including

23:46

head of the prison system, which

23:48

led him to some unusual opinions.

23:51

I would legalize drugs across the board. You would

23:53

legalize which all

23:55

of them? You would legalize old rugs?

23:58

Yes, that's a pretty well

24:01

well, I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say

24:03

that while I worked for a governor or a mayor

24:06

who was an elected definition. Why wouldn't you say

24:08

that then as opposed to now because I had a mortgage

24:10

debate. The rest of my conversation

24:13

with Martin Horne at Here's the

24:15

Thing Dot Org. This

24:31

is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening

24:34

to Here's the Thing. I'm

24:36

joined by journalist Nicole Jelinas,

24:38

New York City Councils Speaker Corey

24:41

Johnson and Tom Wright, President

24:43

and CEO of the Regional Plan

24:45

Association. Right

24:48

in the middle of another topic, just

24:50

had to turn back to the insane

24:53

amount New York pays to build

24:55

and maintain its subways. I

24:57

have to hit this issue on why things cost so much.

25:00

It's impossible to defend the work rules

25:03

of the unions and some of the things that drive

25:05

up the cost. We've got to get more competition

25:08

and with contractors and other things, but the

25:10

entire system is broken from

25:12

front to end. The procurement process

25:15

in New York State is so ridiculous

25:17

that contractors will be hired to build

25:19

a piece of the Second Avenue subway.

25:22

They will know that it's going to change,

25:24

but it's going to take a year for the procurement

25:26

process to effectuate that

25:29

change. So they build something

25:31

knowing that at the end of it they're going to

25:33

be told to rip it up and rebuild it again

25:36

under some new way. But they have to

25:38

do it, and the contractors if they don't do all

25:41

the time, all the time. There were thousands

25:43

of change orders on the Second Avenue Subway

25:46

in the last year or two to opening

25:49

it up as subway. All

25:51

of these things subway. Here's

25:54

another example of one running

25:56

the Number one line through the World

25:58

Trade Center site. It was a kind of historic

26:00

achievement of the MTA to restore that service,

26:03

and then the mt A basically said to the

26:05

Port Authority, you can rebuild this new path station

26:08

at Fulton, but you're going to continue to run

26:10

our subway through it. The cost of doing

26:12

that was hundreds of millions of dollars,

26:15

when any rational situation

26:17

would have looked at and said, you know what, we're going to shut this down

26:19

for a couple of months and we're gonna then rebuild

26:22

the whole thing and it will save us an enormous amount of money.

26:24

But essentially you had kind of the m t A and

26:26

the Port Authority, both state entities,

26:29

kind of saying, well, it's not my dollars, so I don't

26:31

care. You just have to go do it. And

26:33

that's the kind of failure of the eleven

26:35

billion dollar overrun that Corey talks about

26:37

with east Side Access close

26:39

to a half a billion dollars.

26:41

Because New York State has ridiculous

26:44

insurance protections. I'm sure that

26:46

if we just adopted the California protections

26:48

that people would still have plenty of protection here

26:50

in New York, but we add hundreds

26:52

of millions of dollars to the cost CUOMO rated

26:55

the subways state of good repair money

26:57

for pet projects. Correct, is

26:59

that on a yeah? Well when

27:01

did that happen? Well, you were very critical

27:03

of thattor we were, we were critical of The truth

27:05

is, depreciation is not just a kind of

27:07

financial accounting idea. It is

27:10

cables giving out, it is wheels giving

27:12

out. And it's not sexy, it doesn't

27:14

add it doesn't give you a big ribbon cutting.

27:17

But those kinds of basic investments in the system

27:19

have to keep going. And that's what God

27:21

got it. And that's what we saw over the last

27:24

decade or so, kind of money being taken out

27:26

of and that's what suddenly led to the situation

27:28

of the crisis and Nicole. If you were given

27:30

some czar like position of

27:32

the biggest cost controls that you would

27:34

implement, what would you do? More

27:37

transparency? And I know that that's a cliche,

27:39

but I'll give you a couple of specific examples

27:44

of a project's cost is buying

27:46

materials meant steel. These

27:49

are global commodities and the global

27:51

price is known. You can look in the newspaper

27:53

and see what's the going price for especially

27:56

right, But these are part of these

27:59

contracts where the contractors go

28:01

to subcontractors and buy the materials,

28:03

and so the cost of the raw materials

28:06

is not known by the public. Every

28:09

single materials purchase, the

28:12

volume and the price should be disclosed

28:14

to the public and benchmarked

28:16

to a global index. So well,

28:19

why isn't it because the system as it

28:22

is benefits everybody. But contractors

28:24

should not be making a profit on

28:26

the portion of the contract that involves

28:29

materials purchases because they're not adding any

28:32

right, they're they're not they're not adding any

28:34

value to that, so they do get a markup on

28:36

it, but they shouldn't. That's one thing

28:39

is making sure that there's not a lot

28:41

of padding and corruption in the materials

28:44

purchase process. And the other

28:46

thing would be all of

28:48

these construction contracts

28:50

between the contractors and the construction

28:53

unions iron workers union, steel workers,

28:55

carpenters, all of these contracts

28:57

should be public right now. The

29:00

contractors and the unions keep these

29:02

contracts in these work rules private

29:04

because they say these are just

29:06

arrangements between private parties. I mean, if

29:08

Tom and I signed contracts, really nobody's

29:10

business. But in this case,

29:13

the public is the final payer.

29:16

If the m t A is spending twelve

29:18

billion dollars on the East Side Access Project

29:21

five billion dollars on the Second Avenue subway,

29:24

the public should know every single

29:26

one of these work rules, and each

29:28

work rule should have a cost item next

29:30

to it. This costs US fifty

29:32

million dollars a year. Just getting

29:35

those two pieces of information would

29:37

get us a long way to reform because

29:40

all of these things are connected. You know, someone might

29:42

say Long Island Railroad Union

29:44

has nothing to do with construction

29:47

unions. But if one set

29:49

of unions gives up something, the other

29:51

sets of unions knows that it has to give

29:54

that thing up to t W

29:56

is never going to sign a deal that is

29:59

less generous the Long Island Railroad

30:01

contract because one side looks

30:03

like a chump, one side looks like you've got a better deal.

30:05

So all of these things have to everybody right

30:08

all down together. Um,

30:10

Now for Corey, just to change the arc here

30:12

just a bit, what would you do if you want

30:14

to improve the city's relationship with

30:17

the governor. Well, I would say

30:19

that I don't want to be presumptuous,

30:21

but I think one of the things that you

30:23

need to do in politics and in

30:25

life is you

30:28

need to be able to relate

30:30

to people and to maybe use

30:32

a little bit of charm sometimes. What

30:34

what do I may that? I mean that in a hollow, empty way.

30:37

What I mean is, I think part

30:39

of the job of being mayor of the City of New

30:41

York is when you saw at Cotch

30:44

standing at the foot of the Brooklyn Bridge during

30:46

the transit strike, shaking people's

30:48

hands. There was a little bit of theater involved

30:50

when you see people out there when you're screaming

30:52

how am I doing. Part of what the

30:55

job of mayor is is making sure

30:57

the city is running in the right way,

30:59

so that you don't have homeless encampments, so

31:01

that the subway isn't breaking down every day, and you're

31:03

working with Albany to get that done. See

31:06

that you don't have a hundred and ten thousand homeless

31:08

children during one point of the year in the City

31:10

of New York. You need to work on those issues, but you

31:13

also have to be a cheerleader for

31:15

the City of New York. You have to do both of those things.

31:17

And I think if you do that, if

31:19

the if the public relates to you in

31:22

that way, not just on an operational

31:24

level, but they like you. They like how you're championing

31:27

and cheerleading New York. I go around last

31:29

night. I spoke at the y m C A galat Cipriani

31:31

Street, and I stood up and I said, New York City

31:33

is the greatest city in the world. We are the city

31:36

that gave the world j Lo and Barbara

31:38

streisand we are the city

31:40

that is the holes. We are the city of

31:42

the home of the lemon Ice, King of Corona.

31:45

We are the city with the Statue of Liberty not

31:47

that far from me, or the torch is a beacon to

31:49

immigrants and refugees, sam seekers. I

31:51

think the disconnect is in that budget number

31:54

I gave you from seventy three billion dollars to

31:56

billion dollars, nineteen billion dollars in revenue

31:59

growth in five years, and you

32:01

still have people who feel like they're being screwed.

32:03

You still hear that money coming from the

32:05

economy. The economy has been hosting

32:12

You've seen prosperity. So if you again, if

32:14

you look at seven eighty thousand private sector

32:17

jobs, three point nine percent unemployment, the highest

32:19

number of tourism ever, recorded crime,

32:21

homicides, and an all time low since nine when

32:24

crime numbers started to get reported. And New Yorkers

32:26

right now, the mayor is not getting credit

32:29

for that because you actually do need to cheer

32:31

lead those things. But you need to cheer lead those

32:33

things and at the same time say, I

32:36

know that it is totally screwed

32:38

up that we have a record

32:40

homeless population New York City, that nights

32:43

is crumbling, public housing is crumbling before

32:45

our eyes, that the subways are in a state of disrepair,

32:47

and that I'm going to go out there and use

32:49

all of that record growth that we've seen

32:52

to address this crisis. Uh.

32:55

There are things that I don't agree with Michael Bloomberg on, like

32:57

the third term, but he said something which I do agree with

32:59

him on. He said it, and this is why I was a critic

33:01

of the Amazon deal. He said, if you want

33:03

to attract businesses and jobs to New York

33:05

City, you need to do three things. Number

33:07

one, you need to have low crime.

33:10

Number two, you have to improve the school system.

33:12

And number three, and that's what we're talking about, you

33:14

have to invest in infrastructure and

33:17

public spaces. If you do those three

33:19

things, businesses will come to New York, people

33:21

will come to New York, and the economy will grow.

33:24

And the disconnect is, with twenty billion

33:26

dollars in growth just in our city's budget

33:28

in five and a half years, that prosperity

33:31

is not being felt. And people are like, how come

33:33

the trash cans are overflowing on

33:35

my corner? How come public housing

33:38

as fall? How come the street sweepers can't have a

33:40

camera on their truck and when they pull

33:42

up behind you and you haven't moved, they take a picture,

33:44

email it to the traffic post and you get

33:46

a ticket. But I want to say, but I want

33:48

to say, well, I mean, I'm don't get

33:51

me started by how much I want to point the finger at Albany. But

33:53

what did our pa think of the Amazon deal? We

33:55

were supportive of the Amazon deal. I will admit,

33:57

UH don't love the idea of

34:00

of public finance incentives, although most

34:02

of the ones that they were talking about were ones that are

34:04

readily accessible to any company

34:06

that's coming in. And I think that there

34:08

should be a re examination of that entire

34:11

of that entire situation. Everybody that I know that lived

34:13

out there said this thing is going to come out here and the speculative

34:16

buying of of of housing is going to drive

34:18

all of our costs through the roof and ruin

34:20

our neighborhood. That's true. But I want to add one thing, not

34:22

to check on Tom Google, who

34:24

what is about twenty five blocks

34:27

north of where we're sitting in the studio, which

34:29

is the biggest employer in my council district.

34:32

They've created the most fifteen thousand jobs

34:34

in the last decade. How much subsidy

34:36

and incentiment they received from the City of New York zero.

34:41

So if you do in

34:43

a precedential nature saying to

34:45

Amazon, we're gonna give you two point

34:47

three billion dollars in non

34:50

discretionary subsidy and incentive

34:52

and a five hundred million dollar cash grant

34:54

which could go to the subway system. By the way, a

34:56

five or a million dollar cash grant to build

34:59

your headquarters. What's going to keep Goldman,

35:01

Sachs, JP, Morgan, Chase,

35:03

Google, Facebook, name a company

35:06

to come back three years from now. Would say we

35:08

want the same deal Amazon, that I

35:11

can't defend these kinds of deals. And I can remember

35:14

when Governor Pataki essentially because

35:17

because I would say right now that's kind of

35:19

the way the game is played. The rules of

35:22

the game ought to be changing. But I do think

35:24

that that was what was on the table. But isn't

35:26

right now the time to change

35:28

the game. If not now, when I mean the Amazon

35:31

deal was a classic

35:34

nineties seventies massive

35:36

subsidy to build buildings.

35:38

In the seventies under Mayor

35:40

Lindsay. Under Mayor

35:43

Beam, these things were more understandable

35:45

because people were fleeing the city.

35:48

No one wanted to locate their business

35:50

here. We had to give something away

35:52

just to keep some kind of the core. Today

35:54

the problem is the opposite. We don't have catastrophic

35:57

failure anymore. We have a catastrophe

36:00

fixed success, and so to be giving subsidies

36:03

away when we need every last

36:05

tax dollar for the infrastructure

36:08

just doesn't make any sense. Amazon

36:11

has been their entire business

36:13

model for twenty two years has been to

36:15

avoid paying their taxes. Often

36:18

legally, you know they're not breaking the law, but they don't

36:21

want to pay taxes. In Texas, they never

36:23

wanted to pay the sales taxes, and so they

36:25

were competing unfairly with bricks

36:27

and mortar retailers for years and years,

36:30

and this was just another game

36:32

that they were playing. They miscalculated

36:35

this one and they sort of took their blocks

36:37

and went home. And so the city will be

36:39

fine without Amazon, but only if

36:41

we stick to Corey's three things. Actually,

36:44

though, in the absence of an Amazon and a kind

36:46

of large growth there, what's most likely to happen

36:48

is it's going to convert to what's been happening, which

36:50

is residential development, which is more residential

36:52

on the waterfront and people moving

36:55

in there and then trying to cram onto the subways

36:57

to get into jobs in Manhattan. What

37:00

we need to do, actually, and I think Nicole's

37:03

the jobs out there is put the jobs out there. Nicole's

37:05

come and catastrophic success is absolutely

37:07

right. Wasn't it done in the Bronx? They wet

37:10

to be well? Hell, look, and this might be an

37:12

athema here. I think if Amazon had gone to

37:14

New Wark, it would have been even better. Also way

37:17

too much, you know, actually kind of

37:19

spreading those jobs around so that we take

37:21

advantage the trains run in both directions, and

37:24

we ought to be taking full advantage of the capacity

37:26

that we have by balancing growth.

37:28

And yes, the Bronx is the place where be even better

37:30

for them to go than the Amazon

37:33

should still come to New York City. I want them to come.

37:36

There is office space available down

37:38

in Lower Manhattan at the World Trade Center. There

37:40

is office space available at Hudson Yards.

37:43

It hasn't been leased up yet. There is office space

37:45

available. It's going to be available in Midtown East

37:47

where we just rezoned it for more class A office

37:49

space. There is a glut of office space available.

37:52

Amazon should come to New York City. They should

37:54

play by the same rules as everyone else, Google

37:56

and other Fortune five companies that don't

37:59

get a hunger games like sweetheart

38:01

deal. The European Union bans

38:04

these type of contests. They should come here,

38:06

and they should come and they should say, wherever we're

38:08

going, we want to invest in that local

38:10

subway station and improve it

38:12

and make it better for our workers. We want

38:14

to be a good corporate citizen in New York City. I'm

38:16

not against Amazon coming in New York City. I'm

38:19

I'm against setting up this hunger Games like

38:21

contest which doesn't benefit the city real quickly

38:23

give me uh the next mayor.

38:25

In terms of the problems

38:28

with the m t A, the next mayor should do

38:30

what's their first priority or two. The

38:33

next mayor's got to come and make sure congestion

38:35

pricing gets implemented in the right way, and

38:38

make sure that we fully fund

38:40

Andy Byford's fast Forward plan, because

38:42

that's the right plan. He needs forty billion dollars

38:44

to do it, and we can't be nickel and diming

38:46

him on that s your

38:49

idea, I think, someone who is

38:51

contemplating a run from mayor, I think you need to

38:54

come up with big, bold, creative, outside the box ideas.

38:56

Bloomberg did it when he called for mayor control

38:58

the school system, to Blasio did it when he called

39:01

for universal pre k. I think the future

39:03

of New York City, the lifeblood of our economy,

39:06

is stabilizing, transforming,

39:08

expanding our mass transit system. And

39:10

so I think we need now a

39:12

better governance model, singular accountability,

39:16

not a deflective model, which is what the

39:18

m T. A. Garners right now

39:20

by the way it's set up. And so I think we

39:22

have talked about municipal control of the subways

39:25

and busses tied in to a

39:27

master plan of the streets of New York City.

39:29

In London, the person that oversees the tubes

39:32

and the buses is also the

39:34

Department of Transportation commissioner who oversees

39:36

the city street. How would you plan to do that with when

39:38

you become there? Well, typically

39:43

it's okay. In two thousand and one, when

39:45

Bloomberg one, he got mayoral control in the

39:47

first six months of his first term. When

39:49

to I

39:51

think there's a little bit of a mandate that is

39:54

given to a new mayor after they've

39:56

won if they have run on a big

39:58

idea, and if this is also a part

40:00

if they have convinced the public it is

40:02

the right thing to do ahead of time, which typically

40:05

they have if they've won the mayorw election. And

40:07

I think that's one of the big things. So I'm gonna

40:09

keep talking about municipal control, transforming

40:12

our streets, breaking our call culture,

40:14

focusing on pedestrians and cyclists,

40:16

and having a livabol city. And

40:18

I saw that. I have to mention that I saw that on

40:20

your phone. You were getting a call from Andy Biford, who

40:22

we begged to do the show, who stiffed us,

40:24

but being British, he did it in the most elegant

40:27

where he stiffed us in a really

40:29

plummy and very very English way.

40:31

You're big ideas for the m T and Nicole. The

40:33

next mayor should be riding the subways

40:36

and the buses every day and

40:38

should be walking the streets. We

40:40

we need much faster bus service,

40:43

which means we need zero

40:45

tolerance for double park cars, double

40:47

park trucks. Every single

40:49

one of these vehicles should be slapped with

40:51

a ticket every single time they

40:54

violate the bust lane. We need more

40:56

bike lanes to the extent that we can get

40:58

people. Road closure. Well

41:00

that yeah, that's another process. Yeah.

41:02

I think parts of Fifth Avenue,

41:05

Madison Avenue, Sixth Avenue, these

41:07

avenues should be for buses,

41:09

bicycles and for Yellow times Yellow

41:12

taxis because Yellow taxis already paid

41:14

the congestion fee and in terms of paying

41:17

a million dollars in some cases for the medallion.

41:20

And also, at some point, you know, fifteen years

41:22

in the future, a free autonomous

41:24

bus that does a fixed route that comes every

41:26

minute, so if you're going by Rockefeller Center,

41:29

no private cars and things

41:31

like we pedestrianized Times Square.

41:33

That's been a success. If we hadn't pedestrianized

41:36

Times Square, we would have to do it today because

41:38

of the risk of vehicle terrorism. We

41:40

should be doing more of that in Rockefeller

41:43

Center in Lower Manhattan. But

41:45

coming back to the mt A, the one

41:47

thing that the mayor controls now is the streets.

41:50

Use the streets for much better, faster

41:52

bus service, and if the MTA doesn't

41:55

provide it, hold them accountable. I would

41:57

have alternate side of the street delivery. So

41:59

if you're on the east side of the street or the north

42:01

side of the street, it's Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and

42:03

your deliveries on the other side there's Tuesday, there is a

42:05

Saturday. To cut down there. We

42:07

want people to have their goods delivered, but they can't

42:09

do it whenever they want to. I mean the double parking.

42:12

I mean, I'll name one company who's

42:14

more egregious than UPS. They

42:16

pull their truck over the open grave

42:18

while you're at your mother's funeral. If they could, they

42:21

would like to move to a district system and

42:24

and look UPS could actually be part

42:26

of the solution there. I'll throw that out

42:28

there. UPS would like to be biking

42:30

the everything within a couple of blocks,

42:33

but they got to work with the city and the management of

42:35

the streets just hasn't been there. But I want to just finish

42:37

by saying, obviously, thank you, to all three of you. We

42:39

could have gone on and on and and and and served

42:41

into other topics. But thank you well

42:43

because in my lifetime I have never

42:46

seen people in New York more demoralized

42:50

it used to be. There was it seemed that there was a plan

42:52

when you built buildings. Were at

42:54

another one of those stages where

42:56

we're tearing down ten or fifteen percent

42:58

of the city. I'm an exaggerate perhaps to build

43:01

new things, but knew what since

43:03

you brought up the construction. That's another problem

43:06

with the streets. These construction

43:08

companies that are building these super tall

43:10

towers, they only pay a

43:12

hundred and fifty dollars a month to close

43:15

off the whole lane of the street, sometimes

43:17

for two and three years briskly.

43:20

They should be paying market price

43:22

for closing that lane of street

43:24

and get the building build faster. If you can't do it

43:27

faster, than you've got to pay this money, and

43:29

a good chunk of that money should go towards the

43:31

transit. I think if you become the mayor of New

43:33

York, she should have some huge position and

43:36

he should be yours. That

43:40

was Corey Johnson, Nicole Jollinas,

43:43

and Tom Wright. This is Alec

43:45

Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's

43:47

the Thing