0:02

I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening

0:04

to Here's the Thing from my Heart

0:07

radio. In February,

0:10

none other than Bill Crystal tweeted,

0:13

we are all Democrats now. From

0:15

one of the nation's leading conservatives,

0:18

it was yet another sign of the chasm

0:21

between moderate Republicans and

0:23

Trump loyalists. Crystel

0:25

earned his political stripes serving

0:28

in the Reagan and George H.

0:30

W. Bush administrations, then

0:33

as founder and editor of The Weekly

0:35

Standard for more than two decades, he argued

0:38

for hawkish foreign policy, lower

0:40

taxes, and against universal

0:42

health care. After the January

0:45

sixth insurrection, Crystal

0:47

says our democracy is facing an

0:49

internal crisis. It's all enough

0:51

to make him regret Hillary Clinton's

0:54

two thousand sixteen loss. We

0:57

would be much better off. Just reckless

0:59

disregard science and denial

1:01

of truth and demagoguery of Trump

1:04

that's unmatched, in my view, really by by

1:06

a major party nominee of either of either

1:08

party in modern times, and bad

1:11

enough that he got the domination. I thought that would do real damage

1:13

to the country. But then winning the election,

1:15

in which obviously

1:18

that damage is by no means over

1:20

or even beginning to be over. I think the degree

1:22

to which having a really reckless

1:25

demagogue, nativist, authoritarian demagogue

1:27

as president for four years, that

1:29

takes a while to recover from. You

1:31

know, New York is always new Trump. Yes,

1:34

Trump was a vacuous, I mean

1:36

vapid nonentity in New York and people

1:38

wouldn't do business with him. Well, I mean, I think

1:40

in New York society, which I don't put

1:43

myself in New York society. I'm not an astor,

1:45

if you will, but but in my life

1:47

of tickets and tables and going to charitable

1:50

events for the last thirty thirty five years,

1:52

Trump was always a drive by presidents. You know,

1:54

he had the tuxedo in the glove compartment, He

1:57

jumped out of the limo, snap snap on

1:59

the red carpet on. Never a tablemate,

2:02

never a conversation to be had. But

2:04

let me switch back. Your father

2:06

was obviously this figure that looms large and the

2:08

neo conservative movement. What was your home

2:10

life like? What was the intellectual were

2:13

you like the conservative Kennedy's

2:15

at the dinner table you had to beat Foreign

2:17

Affairs Magazine before you sat down for your

2:20

salad course. No, I think my parents of

2:22

anything bent, were a little bit backwards

2:24

to you know, let me go play baseball

2:27

or football or basketball and Riverside Park and

2:30

and we were all big sports fans, including my father,

2:32

and so many of my memories, like

2:35

everyone else's memories, I suppose of being ten, twelve,

2:37

fourteen years old is watching TV with my father

2:40

and my mother, not so much in sports, but watching,

2:43

uh, the Jets and the Mets that I was. I

2:45

was a big New York sports fan. And it was the sixties.

2:47

You were Jets, Mats, not Giants Yankees. Yes,

2:50

my junior senior in high school featured

2:52

the Jets winning the huge upset in the Super

2:55

bowlth three, sixty met swinning the World Series

2:57

and sixty nine and the nixt winning in nineteen

2:59

seventy with Little Street hobbling onto the court.

3:01

So that was where I always felt like. I never

3:04

was quite as much of a sports fan after that, because how

3:06

can you do better than root for these teams, which,

3:08

as you say, we're pretty hopeless in the beginning

3:10

of the decade when I started to do do it for them,

3:12

and one by the end of the decade. But

3:14

when they won these titles, it was a shock to New York.

3:17

Yeah, people forget that it's like, well, of course, you know Joe

3:19

Namoth Willow Street, but it was it was in the Mets

3:22

were of course a total shock. So

3:24

so that was an exciting I had a good youth in that

3:26

respect, in terms of sports, and

3:28

and honestly we watched a lot of mysteries on

3:30

TV and stuff, so we were we were pretty um,

3:33

I mean, my parents were intellectuals, and I

3:35

grew up surrounded by more books, I suppose than

3:37

an average kid, and then therefore did

3:40

pick up a lot of that obviously. But actually,

3:42

and also in the sixties, this is sort of before

3:44

neo conservatives, and so they were kind of old

3:47

fashioned liberals. They supported Hubert hung

3:49

Free from president and sixty eight and what changed,

3:52

well, they would say, and they would have said, and I would agree

3:54

with this, that the left, the old

3:56

fashioned lived list and got overtaken by the new left,

3:59

and they didn't like that. Around what time,

4:01

late sixties, I would say, I mean, in New

4:04

York the teacher strike was a big deal. But the

4:06

failure of John Lindsay as mayor, the sense

4:08

that domestic policy things were falling

4:10

apart, crime was increasing, the city wasn't

4:12

being well governed. Some of these big government

4:15

programs weren't working too well. And then in foreign policy

4:17

that kind of George willgoverned

4:20

victory and the Democratic Party a very decent

4:22

man, but a very devilsh view of America's

4:25

well in the world. So they moved to

4:27

the right, and uh, methought

4:30

they were always kind of heterodoxy

4:32

liberals, I would say, sort of contrarian and didn't

4:34

just take liberal pieties for granted.

4:36

But uh yeah, in the seventies they certainly

4:39

that's when do conservatives came into existence.

4:41

It was originally a term of opprobrium used

4:44

by a Democratic socialist, Michael Harrington, who

4:46

attacked my thought. He thought it would sort of be

4:48

the It would discredit all these liberals who

4:50

were retaking liberalism, to call them by

4:52

the dread word. This is so long ago conservative,

4:55

ordo conservative. But he couldn't quite say conservative,

4:57

as they obviously weren't conservatives from youth.

5:00

So they were neo conservatives. And remember my father

5:02

wrote My father wrote a piece I think in nine seventy four

5:04

saying, Okay, look, I guess if they want to call me indio conservative,

5:07

I'll accept the term. A lot of his friends

5:09

resisted it throughout the seventies say no, we're

5:12

the true liberals. But you know how politics

5:14

is, you sort of end up with the term. They stick

5:16

on you when you talk about

5:18

McGovern, devish and so forth.

5:20

And I come from a different place where

5:23

I believe that, you know, Vietnam

5:26

is the stain we're never going to be able to wash away.

5:29

That's when the country really took the turn down, and

5:31

we've never recovered from that, and and I'm

5:33

curious as to whether we ever will because

5:36

we knew it was wrong way back when we knew

5:38

Ran Corporation Elsberg all that we

5:40

knew it was wrong, and when we pressed

5:42

on. But the point is that how

5:45

much longer do you think the United States can

5:47

afford? And you can correct me if you think this is that

5:49

this is not an apt description to be

5:51

this world policeman going around the world and

5:53

telling everybody else what to do all the time in order

5:55

to benefit ourselves economically. How much

5:57

longer can we afford to do that financially?

6:00

Well, I think we can afford to do it, or in the sense I

6:02

think the price we would pay for not doing some of

6:04

it is even greater. I mean, Vietnam was

6:06

obviously in retrospect, I

6:09

mean a mistake. I think we stumbled into it with

6:11

decent intentions Kennedy and to

6:13

some degree Johnson, people like McNamara, who

6:16

was, you know, a person who wanted to do

6:18

the right thing. And then we got out

6:20

in a way that was was understandable

6:22

why we got out the way we did. And then of course Vietnam

6:24

fell on seventy five and Cambodia, it was pretty

6:27

disastrous. On the other hand, Reagan came back at eight

6:29

and we won the Cold War, and it felt

6:31

it really what I was that firing a shot. And

6:34

in the nineties, you know, we managed

6:36

to help construct a Europe

6:39

that was kind of whole and free. We defeated Milosovich.

6:42

So I would still defend the kind of US,

6:45

uh, the model of US internationalism

6:47

and to some degree of interventionism

6:50

that held through most of those years.

6:52

And I think we had a world that wasn't getting

6:54

better and in pretty good shape for all the mistakes

6:57

that various administrations have made. But you

6:59

believe that there are things that we need to do in

7:01

this guy. When I look at America now, I

7:03

see, you know, not just

7:05

the floorboards creaking and the paint peeling.

7:07

I mean, I see that this country is desperate

7:09

for forget about the COVID and

7:11

and and and as Howard Dean said on this program,

7:13

will be interviewed him. I said, will we be in trouble

7:15

financially if we keep printing money to address the

7:18

COVID economy? Said, We're gonna be in trouble if we don't.

7:21

We have to print this money to keep this economy going,

7:23

or we'll be in real trouble if we don't. But my point

7:25

is that you turn around and education,

7:28

healthcare, infrastructure, what's

7:31

going on in Texas. Everywhere you turn around,

7:34

the country is fraying in terms of some

7:36

kind of infrastructure. How much longer can

7:38

we go on giving the Pentagon a blank

7:40

check to do whatever they want to

7:42

do, to buy all this crap bombs

7:44

and planes and submarines, everything that we

7:46

may or may not need, when there's so many

7:48

other things we need to take care of this country

7:51

right now. And the Pentagon is what about

7:53

seven fifty billion dollars a year, so

7:55

it's about three and a half four percent of g d P

7:57

honestly, and we're about to spend one point

8:00

trillion dollars on the COVID relief bill,

8:02

which I think is fine, but it just shows

8:04

how much it dwarfs whatever saving is

8:06

you're going to get for the Pentagon with fifty billion a

8:08

hundred billions. So I really don't think it's fundamental.

8:11

And I would say the COVID Covidge reminds us

8:13

the world is inter connected. It

8:15

matters to us how the w h O

8:18

is governed, it matters to us how

8:20

China is governed. And so the notion

8:22

that we can just sort of not worry so much

8:24

about the world, I don't think it's correct.

8:26

And then I think the liberal answer what I just said would

8:28

be, well, we can worry about the world,

8:30

but we don't need all the military side of it. But I think the

8:32

military side backs up the diplomatic side.

8:35

So I guess I'm I'm with the sort of Clinton

8:38

type Democrats on this now. And I think

8:40

the Biden administration and having reasonable

8:43

defense preparedness and defense spending and

8:45

forward deployment to keep things

8:48

stable and safe around the world. And

8:50

I think and also free trade and some of these things that

8:52

are out of fashion. Look at the vaccine development, which

8:54

is really a tribute I would say to the

8:58

kind of integrated flow capital

9:00

and and also of immigration

9:02

accent only uh to America who

9:05

they're They're responsible for so many these scientific and

9:07

medical breakthroughs out of also

9:10

just the medical care we're getting. So I'd

9:12

say I'm I'm a pretty unembarrassed globalist,

9:15

and I think part of that is having a

9:17

reasonable military, you know, capability

9:22

neo conservative Bill Crystal. If

9:25

you enjoy hearing from independent

9:27

minded conservatives, check out

9:29

my two thousand and twelve conversation with

9:32

Pulitzer Prize winning columnist George

9:34

Will. Today, we have this cornucopia

9:37

of news sources. People define journalism

9:40

on their own terms, get it on their own time.

9:43

I was told by an activist in South

9:45

Carolina during the primary this year that

9:48

a survey showed that sevent of

9:50

all Republican primary voters in South

9:52

Carolina get all, not most, all

9:54

of their news from Fox News. On a

9:56

Republican candidate buys an ad on Fox

9:59

News, he's not broad casting, he's narrow casting

10:01

right in the Republican voters. Here

10:04

more of my conversation with George Will

10:07

and here's the thing dot org. After

10:10

the break, Bill Crystal walks us through

10:13

the recent history of the Republican Party

10:15

right to the point where Trump lost Crystal's

10:18

vote. I'm

10:28

Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the

10:30

thing. Bill Crystal says

10:32

his initial enthusiasm for social

10:35

media has faded. The

10:37

changes have been greater than I at first expected.

10:40

I liked the you know,

10:42

the democratization of news to some degree.

10:44

I thought it was a healthy thing. I thought I discovered

10:47

personally a lot of people. I learned a lot from

10:49

whom I wouldn't have discovered in the old days, because they wouldn't

10:51

have been you know, fifty two year old

10:53

people who had moved moved their way, white males

10:55

who had moved up in the pecking order. And

10:58

we're now on partly frankly right. And so the

11:00

kind of flowering of a lot

11:02

of voices was in many ways

11:04

a healthy thing, and I underestimated the damage it would

11:06

do. Though, the degree to which the echo

11:09

chamber character of social media Facebook,

11:12

I think in particular, though, but also

11:14

other parts of social media have allowed

11:16

people to live in their own worlds

11:19

and and believe that a lot of things that aren't

11:21

true. And also the kind of rewarding

11:23

of extremism and of a sort

11:25

of superficial hot takes as opposed

11:27

to, you know, more serious

11:29

consideration of things. Having said all that, you

11:32

know, when I talked to young people go college campus,

11:34

you know there's still that hunger I think for real

11:37

information and thoughtful analysis

11:40

of things. So I'm not despairing about

11:42

it, but it does require fresh thinking.

11:44

I mean, I think in terms of regulation and

11:46

how we structure or how what government

11:48

centers we provide and distincenters

11:51

for organizations like Facebook. Um,

11:53

that's something we've just let it develop

11:56

on its own. Maybe that was necessary for a

11:58

while, understandable, but it is the wild

12:00

West, and it does require, Like the wild West

12:02

eventually did some law and

12:05

order, some regulations, some sheriffs,

12:07

Yeah, some rules to try to get people

12:09

to Uh, should we bring

12:11

back the fairness doctrine? I don't know how important

12:14

that would be at this point, honestly, and I don't even know

12:16

quite what it would applied to. I guess is Fox

12:18

News and news organization? Well, no, I

12:20

mean Fox News is so I was on Fox

12:22

and on the Sunday Show mostly I've been every week

12:24

and then somewhat on on the Special Report panel

12:26

when when Britt Hume

12:29

was the host of special Report and then a little

12:31

bit with right there. I would say

12:33

Fox News was always conservative.

12:36

It wasn't quite fair and balanced. It was a sort of

12:38

tugging cheek thing. But on the other hand, it was

12:40

very different. It's very different have a conservative

12:42

leading or even conservative oriented

12:45

a news organization with

12:47

some shows with a little bit of demagoguery

12:50

frankly from Bill O'Reilly and a

12:52

little bit of silliness from Sean Hannity, but

12:54

still kept in check mostly, I

12:56

would say, and balanced

12:58

by other networks. And that is

13:00

very different from the true conspiracy,

13:03

theorizing no holds barred,

13:05

denagar green dativism, racism.

13:08

Really that you now get. I think it's I remember

13:10

when Trump did the birth of stuff inve

13:14

I just thought it was ludicrous and dismissed it on Fox

13:16

to use, and I would say most of my fellow panelists

13:18

did as well. That Fox did give him that platform on Fox

13:20

and Friends, but we thought that was kind of the ridiculous show

13:23

in any way. People thought it was just idiocy.

13:25

We underestimated how much damage it would do. Obviously,

13:27

I'm not trying to say that it wasn't a big

13:30

there'sn't a lot a lot of people, including me, should

13:32

be held responsible for being part of that organization

13:35

to the degree we were, but I think the degree

13:37

to which it spiraled out of control, it's a big difference

13:40

between having a sort of conservative

13:42

you know, pro tax cart, pro you know,

13:44

conservative judges, whatever, news organization

13:47

and having one that truly deals

13:49

and in saying conspiracy theories and

13:51

one that's a mouthpiece for the GOP. And as

13:53

a total matter, yeah, we criticized. I mean, I was

13:56

very I was pro the Iraq War, but

13:58

I was very critical of rumsfelt thought he should be

14:00

fired. Was with McCain and wanting dout

14:02

more troops in a different strategy. And you

14:04

know, I said that repeatedly on Fox. It was a little

14:06

bit of bristling at times. Was they were already a little

14:08

bit getting into the mode of, gee, we don't

14:11

want to antagonize the Bush administration too much

14:13

Obama to drive them a little crazy,

14:15

especially in the second term. And I

14:17

I don't really understand why it's in retrospect.

14:19

In retrospect, was President Obama such

14:22

a radical president? Not really,

14:24

But I feel like looking back at what I said to I mean,

14:26

I don't think I said anything terrible racist

14:29

or you know, crazy, but the intensity

14:31

even of my opposition on some of the issues, uh,

14:34

the President Obama, I can't, I

14:37

gotta say, looking back, I find it a little startling,

14:39

you know. I I still would wish to structure

14:41

healthcare reform differently and so forth that he would,

14:44

but I don't quite remember. It's

14:46

hard to put yourself back there. I don't think

14:48

in my case, honestly it was race. Maybe it wasn't

14:50

some people's, but the general spiraling

14:52

of the right into a kind

14:55

of insanity over the

14:57

last decade is something that's going to take

14:59

a while to just disentangled. But I do think the media

15:01

incent is what you began with like

15:04

is an important part of it. The incentators were always

15:06

to get more extreme. Who is a person

15:09

speaking of the way that the

15:11

the media has transformed

15:13

over the last many years, who's someone

15:16

deceased? Who's the news for you? You really

15:18

admired from yesteryear, if you will, that you'd

15:20

love to see that kind of person come back. Yeah,

15:23

No, it's I mean you mentioned to brink Huntly

15:25

Wrinkley and I got

15:27

to know David a little bit, and it's very last iteration

15:29

when he hosted the Sunday Show on ABC that

15:32

I was on a few times when he still did it,

15:34

and I think six and

15:36

that kind of worldly wisdom, a little bit of

15:38

irony and a little bit of I've seen

15:40

it all. I'm not going to get too worked

15:42

up. At the time, I thought I was young, and

15:45

fairly young, and I was a little more kind

15:47

of an enthusiast one way or the other. But

15:49

I thought, in a way, that is

15:51

a healthy thing for people to see, you

15:53

know, what these things coming. Let's

15:55

not think that every policy fight, every

15:57

disagreement, every confirmation of some

16:00

on is the end of the world. And I do think

16:02

that kind of wisdom someone who's

16:04

seen real war, World War two,

16:06

who had seen real social

16:09

transformation and the civil rights movement

16:11

and real battles against you know, deeply

16:14

in trans racism and so forth, and

16:16

that kind of perspective is something that people

16:18

don't don't have much these days. I mean,

16:20

I miss my friend Charles Craudhammer, who I

16:23

think would say now today probably what I

16:25

would say about myself. They probably went a little

16:27

a little too harsh and his statements on

16:30

Obama and on the Democrats in

16:32

that period, Where were you too harsh

16:34

on Obama. Well,

16:36

I don't even know that I would pull back too

16:38

many of my differences with him on some topics,

16:41

whether it's Obamacare, which I was critical

16:43

of, or the Iran Deal and so forth.

16:45

But I just think the tone

16:48

was too you know, absolutist

16:51

and uh just extreme in

16:53

the sense that how much damage Obama

16:55

and the Democrats were doing and how important

16:58

it was to check him. And I mean, I'm glad

17:00

that he was checked in certain ways. But two

17:02

thousand nine, for example, the Tea Party began, and

17:05

I kind of thought, well, it's this sort of it's

17:07

being unfairly attacked. These are people who

17:10

just don't like spending all this money. You want to get

17:12

back to a world fashioned kind of conservatism.

17:14

I think there was some of that, honestly. Obviously there

17:16

are a lot of decent people who just thought, to you, why we

17:18

spending all this money to bail out the banks. But in

17:21

retrospect, it was it was an unleashing of

17:23

passions that just never got constrained.

17:25

I mean, I think typically in American history you get real

17:28

passions. Sometimes they're for good, obviously civil

17:30

rights. Sometimes they're not so good, but

17:32

then they kind of get reined in and and

17:35

and turned into legislative agendas

17:37

and sort of merged you might

17:39

say, into one of the parties and

17:41

uh normalized a little

17:44

bit um and then the fringers get marginalized.

17:47

But the opposite happened here, the passions

17:49

took over the party on the Republican side, and

17:51

again Trump Trump's It's hard to say what would have

17:53

happened. But what if Trump hadn't run. What if he

17:55

had just been like as he had in the past, sort

17:58

of pretending, getting some publicity, and then he

18:00

shows not to postured, right, What if he had

18:02

just posture? What if therefore the nominee had been

18:04

I don't know, Marko Rubio or Jem Bush or

18:06

anyone you want you know, or my favorite, Ted

18:08

Cruz. Yeah, whatever, what our politics

18:11

be pretty different today. I guess I on

18:13

the one, and I think so because I do think he's an important

18:16

part of it. I mean, you can have a lot of problems

18:18

in our society and our culture, a lot of

18:20

bigotry, a lot of craziness,

18:23

frankly, but if it doesn't have a president

18:25

willing to constantly amplify

18:28

it and magnify it, if you don't willing to throw

18:30

the match every day. You know, the gas,

18:33

I mean that the gas can sit there, could

18:35

be bad, it's not healthy, but it can sort

18:37

of be kept under control. So I guess I often

18:40

do come. People say you're a little obsessed with Trump, but

18:42

I don't think I am. But if I am, it's

18:44

because I do think this one man has

18:46

done a huge amount of damage. But I

18:48

will hasten to say this. He could not

18:50

have done the damage without the enabling by

18:52

the Republican Party and the conservative elites.

18:55

And that's if you could have had a president who was a bit of a crack

18:57

pot, who was silly, who was the

18:59

demago was screened and yelled. But you know what if

19:01

the party, beginning in January seen

19:03

and said, look, fine, your president, you propose

19:06

your stuff, but we're going to legislate soberly. We're

19:08

not gonna echo you and everything crazy

19:10

you say. We're going to rebuke you when you go

19:12

too far, you would have had an unusual four years in

19:14

American politics, but not maybe

19:16

an excessively damaging four years,

19:18

but the degree to which Republican elected

19:21

officials, Republican donors, and I would say

19:23

conservative intellectual elite, so that last

19:25

for me is the most painful in a way and the

19:27

most disturbing just we're willing

19:29

to go along with him because they

19:31

wanted to be part of

19:33

the winning team. That

19:36

that did huge damage. I mean,

19:38

I'm a pretty moderate Democrat, and

19:41

I think to myself, you know, there's

19:43

a finer line between Trump and lb

19:45

J than people want to admit. I

19:47

mean, lb J was a haranguing,

19:50

furniture throwing I mean he was a real I mean, no

19:52

matter how much Bob Caro has sanitized

19:55

by lbj's reputation, um,

19:57

the the lb J was somebody who he didn't

19:59

get his way. He's gonna make your life hell. He's me on the phone

20:01

till four o'clock in the morning. He was. He was a bit

20:03

of a lunatic as well in terms of him pursuing

20:05

his his goals. You know, it's funny, can just say,

20:08

I mean, I've often thought about that, that it was I very much agree

20:10

with that, and I somehow the system was set up maybe more

20:12

to constraining. But I think if you look back,

20:14

it's funny we we we look back ideally on

20:16

those posts called post World War two years. It's

20:18

kind of a little bit of a things were healthier

20:20

than But I mean, look at the presidents we had. Honestly,

20:23

between lb J and Nixon, we had

20:25

two people who were pretty disturbed.

20:27

I think you'd have to say if you looked at it analytically,

20:30

right, I mean that's one word. Yeah, I mean they were

20:32

pretty they were they were, and we

20:35

survived them and the people around them. I think we're

20:37

more but we paid a big price, as you were saying with

20:39

Vietnam. But as you pointed out,

20:41

we had people that were willing to oppose them. Yes,

20:44

we in the Watergate era, we had Republicans

20:46

willing to vote to convict. We had people that

20:48

would stand up to the sky. I'm wondering,

20:50

um Pence has disappeared. Pence

20:53

is laying low? Is he following the same plan

20:55

as he borrowing down? Getting ready for I

20:57

guess they're all getting ready for four.

21:00

But I mean this is the big story

21:02

for me of the months since Trump left.

21:04

But really the three months since the election is

21:07

you could reasonably have thought, Okay,

21:09

Trump loses, he doesn't lose his badly as

21:11

people thought he would, and as he would

21:13

have been better if he had lost worse. And it's because

21:15

it's not a full scale of rdiation. They picked up

21:17

seats in the house. They ended up losing the set up,

21:19

but it was repudiation esque. Yeah,

21:21

yeah, but that's a pretty big difference. But still,

21:24

and you would have I would have said, it was not crazy

21:26

to them to think, well, maybe he really will start to fade

21:28

away, and maybe more people will say, okay, enough

21:31

already, let's move on the degree to which

21:33

he was able to pull off the big lie and

21:36

keep the party on board at his own administration

21:38

on board, and and conservative elites

21:41

to some degree on board for the big lie, at least

21:43

for a month or two. Then they finally broke a little

21:45

bit after December fourteenth, and then after January

21:47

six, and then after January six, a

21:49

lot of people said, and again this wasn't silly.

21:52

Okay, that's in a finally in a way, it's

21:54

horrible that had happened, but an opportunity to

21:57

finally get rid of Trump. And now look at it,

21:59

not at all out at all, right, I mean, Kevin McCarthy

22:01

goes to visit them, they're all busy sucking

22:03

up to him. The ones who don't

22:05

want to suck up, but just keeping quiet and hoping

22:08

magically he goes away. I think for me that's

22:10

the almost as depressing as the initial

22:13

enabling of Trump is the current re

22:15

enabling of Trump. Well, I think that people

22:17

who are of a certain stripe, it's

22:20

either that or they have nowhere to go. If if

22:22

you if you step away from Trump and you

22:24

go into the other camp, you're gonna be in the corner

22:26

with a drink in your hand, all by yourself. You're gonna be lonely.

22:29

There's no turning back for them now, and you're gonna

22:31

be attacked bitterly. I mean that people

22:33

do underestimate that. I mean, it is silly,

22:35

these county committees and the centers and all,

22:37

but if you're an actual politician, it's kind

22:39

of your life, right, That's what you do on

22:41

weekends. You go to these meetings. You meet these

22:43

people. You've known these people for a while, they supported

22:45

you, they helped you. You go meet your dotors

22:48

and they're all attacking you. And that's

22:50

why. Ultimately, of course, the voters are the problem.

22:52

And but they get it's sort of a catch

22:54

train to the leader. The elites need to tell

22:56

the truth to the voters. They don't

22:58

want to. They're intimidated, and so the voters may

23:01

continue in the delusions they've been

23:04

led into by Trump and his and his enablers.

23:06

Do you ever spend any time with Trump? No,

23:09

I mean I met him a couple of times, just as very

23:11

marginally, and he called this

23:13

and I'll tell one story. So in the summer

23:15

after announced, uh, we

23:18

were at the Trump at the beginning of the Weekly Standard. But

23:20

I wrote editorial about three weeks into his um

23:23

campaigns with June July, and

23:27

I said, you know, Trump's getting some traction. We do

23:29

not we would never support Donald

23:31

Trump for president at the Weekly Standard, but

23:33

we will say that he's getting some traction and he's

23:36

probably hit some themes that the other candidates need to

23:38

look at and figure out how to dullify. They can't

23:40

just assume Trump is going to go away. I had originally thought,

23:42

like other candidates before, whether it's a Pep

23:44

Buchanan or Herman Kine

23:47

or something, you know, he would kind of fizzle out and the

23:49

establishment would as he always had

23:52

win. So but I said, I was worried

23:54

about Trump. So this senatorial was

23:57

I guess you might say, respectful of Trump as a

23:59

political phenomenon that would be clear and like

24:01

the second sentence or something that we would

24:03

never could never support him bed for the country.

24:05

So I get a phone call on a Friday after the introal

24:08

goes out, it goes online Thursday night close the magazine

24:10

and Thursday night then and Friday

24:12

afternoon, I get a phone call.

24:14

I'm kind of the office phone, and

24:16

the receptionist comes back and says, this

24:19

someone on the phone. It's a woman and

24:21

assistant apparently saying that Donald

24:23

Trump wants to talk to you. So of course I figured

24:25

it was some friend of mine, like, goofing off,

24:27

You'm playing a joke. But I was sitting

24:29

literally sitting my desk and it was kind of quiet, so I said,

24:32

okay, I get whoever it is, I'll go along.

24:34

And it was in fact Donald Trump's long time

24:36

personal secretary, and it was Trump and

24:38

he was calling from the plane, his plane

24:40

that was about to take off to go to Iowa. And

24:43

it was like it was funny, he said, I remember the

24:45

stell. He said stuff like, hey, they tell me you what some

24:47

editorial that was pretty nice to me that you said you wouldn't

24:49

vote for me. But I'll talk you out of that. But at least you

24:51

understand that they should take me seriously. And what

24:53

was funny was they said, you vote the editorial.

24:56

It was obvious and the editor was seven words.

24:58

You know, It's like it didn't even a heard of him that

25:00

he would read the editorial. I'm not saying is that of

25:02

any vanity that it was like well written or anything.

25:04

It's just kind of funny that it's so much

25:07

his world of people giving him something and say,

25:09

this guy Crystal is kind of a pain. But you know, maybe

25:12

you call him up and stroke him for three minutes and maybe

25:14

he'll be nice around when he's on TV or

25:16

he and Trump was pretty good at that, I would

25:18

say. I mean, you know, it was a kind of in

25:20

a certain way if you like that kind of thing. He's,

25:23

hey, well we've gotta get together sometime on the trail,

25:25

you know, by buy a coffee,

25:27

and I mean by your drink. I don't drink, but you know, maybe

25:29

you drink. And I was kind of a little bit of that New York

25:32

backslapping sort of thing. That was Friday.

25:34

He took off Iowa. He said, I gotta hang up taking off

25:36

Ioway. I said, well, safe travels on

25:38

on the trail and look forward to meeting you at

25:41

some point, I suppose, and that he took

25:43

off. The next day was the day that he attacked McCain

25:45

in Iowa and said that McCain

25:48

wasn't a hero. I don't like people

25:50

who've been captured. The day after, I was

25:52

on actually on ABC on this Week

25:55

and and said Trump's dead.

25:57

I've never liked him, but now he's he's

25:59

dead. To be personally, I just said so offensive

26:02

what he just said. But also I can't believe he could be

26:04

the nominee. So that's my political

26:06

genius there. But that was a memorable two or three days.

26:08

So that was That's the last feel conversation I had with Trump.

26:11

I'm told you have a very

26:14

record and prognostication politically. Is that true?

26:16

Yeah? Yeah, because I always like to it's like the

26:18

mess, you know. I always like to pick the long shot

26:21

and be contrarian, but sometimes that doesn't work

26:23

out. So well, yeah, right

26:25

now we're close to Garland probably

26:27

being confirmed as the attorney general. Yeah,

26:30

this is the pivotal moment. I mean, Biden winning

26:32

I'm happy about the Garland nomination

26:35

is something that nothing has cheered me more

26:37

than that Nothing's made me happier than that. And

26:39

I'm wondering which ones of Trump's appointees, because

26:41

Bar is my choice of were the ones that

26:43

were the most troublesome for you. Yeah,

26:46

I'd say Bar because it's such an important department,

26:48

and because I knew him a little bit, and I didn't

26:50

quite expect him to go as far as he did in accommodating

26:53

and enabling Trump. Why do you think he did? Because

26:55

he liked being attorney general and it was

26:58

power, and maybe talked

27:00

himself into some of that. And I'm sure he also talked

27:02

himself into the if I don't if I do this, I

27:04

probably can not do some other things that would

27:06

be even crazier. It's hard to know with people.

27:08

And look, you know this, it's people's psychologies

27:11

are complicated, so they they're not, you

27:14

know, coldly calculating rational. They

27:16

talked themselves into things and they kind of believe them.

27:18

They start off not believing things and they end up

27:20

believing them. Pompeio similarly, who I it

27:22

was slightly and thought was pretty conservative

27:24

and pretty partisan. But the degree

27:26

to which he just became a really kind

27:29

of disgraceful secretary of State I think

27:31

I wouldn't quite have expected that either, So,

27:34

but those are important departments defense.

27:36

I think until the very end when

27:38

he fired us after the election, you know, they

27:40

mostly prevented the worst stuff from happening

27:43

there, So I give them some credit for that. How

27:45

did you feel the way that Garland's Supreme

27:48

Court nomination was handled as

27:50

a lined up against Barrett? Did that horrify

27:52

you? The way that McConnell's positioned that, Yes,

27:55

it did, and I sort of I think we said

27:57

so at the time, but in a kind of oh its,

28:00

we don't really think this is you

28:02

know, this is just taking partisanship to a new level.

28:04

But whatever McConnell's doing, and I didn't think you get

28:06

away with it. I actually thought more Republican senators

28:08

even would say, you can't really do this as pretty

28:10

unprecedented. But I know Garland

28:13

very slightly, but I respect him a lot. I was

28:15

very pleased that he was nominated.

28:17

I think he wouldn't have been. This is one of these cases where one thing at

28:19

least to another. Because

28:21

they won the Democrats one of those two Senate races

28:23

in Georgia January five, Biden

28:25

felt he could afford to nominate Garland, but he would

28:28

then be able to replace Garland on the DC circuit,

28:30

very important, the most important circuit

28:32

below the Streme Court. So it's one of

28:34

these things where I don't think we would have Merrick Garland a security

28:37

general if the Democrats hadn't pulled out those

28:39

upsets and Georgia were about to have

28:41

him. Uh, people think very well of him.

28:43

I like most of Biden's appointments, you

28:45

know, I mean most of the big ones. What

28:48

concerns you most about him? Because

28:50

Biden is older, he'll be eighty

28:52

two years old or approaching eighty two years old,

28:55

what concerns you most about a Kamala Harris

28:57

presidency. I have to agree. Personal

28:59

concern earns. I mean, I think she's a serious

29:01

person and a pretty impressive person, you

29:04

know, generally, as you would expect coming from

29:06

where I've come, I prefer a more moderate

29:08

Democrat. But I would say this, I think

29:10

politically what concerns me is that

29:12

it'll be easier to portray her as

29:15

radical, and some of that is let's not get

29:17

ourselves of race and gender, and that's not

29:19

that's not her fault. I mean, that's not a negative. I'm

29:21

just saying in the real world of politics, it'll

29:24

be a little easier for some demagogic

29:26

Republicans and ad makers

29:28

to say Kamala Harris is dangerous

29:31

to you, as opposed to saying Joe Biden

29:33

is dangerous too. So I am a little worried

29:35

about the politics in a general

29:37

election of Harris. But if she's been vice president

29:39

for Biden for four years, when week she

29:41

will have a record, they'll have a record, and I

29:44

assume she would run as the heir to the

29:46

Biden records. So if Biden

29:48

has been a good president, I think Democrats have a pretty

29:50

good chance in four and I think it's

29:52

important. I mean, I say this is someone who's

29:55

still has some hopes that Republican Party might come

29:57

back someday. But I've got to say for the foreseeable

29:59

few you, which for me is really I

30:03

don't see a Republican party that

30:05

one could really support in good conscience.

30:07

And I think it's important that Democrats

30:09

wind it to prevent this

30:12

kind of authoritarianism and nativism and demagoguery

30:14

from coming back. And if

30:17

that's the case, I think it's important that Biden

30:19

be a successful president. I'm obsessed with the fact that no one

30:21

talks about Biden like everyone talks about Trump,

30:23

which is understandable, and everyone talks about all these other

30:26

things going on in the country and in the world,

30:28

but it kind of matters an old habit. Yeah,

30:31

I want to see Joe Biden succeed. I think it's important

30:33

for the country to have a sort of successful president

30:37

Bill Crystal. If you're enjoying

30:40

this conversation, tell a friend and

30:42

be sure to subscribe to hear the thing

30:45

on the I Heart radio app, Apple

30:47

podcasts or wherever

30:49

you get your podcasts. When we

30:52

come back, Bill Crystal talks about

30:54

what it will take to loosen Trump's

30:56

stranglehold on the Republican Party.

31:06

I'm Alec Baldwin, and you were listening

31:08

to Here's the thing. Bill Crystal

31:11

founded the Weekly Standard. In The

31:14

Weekly Standard was closed down by our

31:17

owners because we were anti Trump. At the end of eighteen,

31:19

I had given up being editor, but I was sort of editor at

31:21

large as Steve Hayes was entor. And

31:23

then it was closed down. Why tell me? Because

31:26

we were anti Trump and he was. He's a

31:28

wealthy business guy who is

31:30

not himself like Trump,

31:32

but he wanted to get along with tru and the Trump

31:35

people were pretty tough that way. They would let people know,

31:37

why why are you paying for and effects

31:39

upsidizing this magazine that's attacking us all

31:41

the time, And maybe he just didn't like it. I don't know, so

31:43

he closed us down. He wouldn't let us find a buyer.

31:45

Is quite quite annoying. And so just

31:47

a week later I was sort of sitting on I think, at what should we do?

31:50

And Jonathan Lasa, let's let's just start

31:52

a website and we can

31:54

probably get some readers we have, we can get some

31:56

good writers. Charlie Sikes was there at the beginning to

31:58

an other ex Republican, James Carver,

32:01

wrote for us. He went a very moving piece about hey,

32:03

we're on the same side. Now this is the height of the election

32:05

campaign obviously, so now, I

32:07

mean, I'm proud of it. It's been very

32:09

I think it's been open minded, it's been centrist,

32:11

it's Republican, you might send some issues

32:14

and moderate Democrat on others. And

32:16

above all the critical of Trump and of the

32:18

accommodation to Trump. And I think the

32:20

great insight Jonathan last and Charlie's sakes

32:22

have had is it's not going away. You

32:24

can't just tell yourself Trump is so longer

32:26

president. Let's just go back to being the kind

32:28

of conservative Republicans. Are moderately conservative

32:30

Republicans we were in two or that

32:33

does not work. There was something wrong already

32:36

that we didn't pay enough attention to. But

32:38

more importantly, whether it was wrong or not, what's

32:40

happened has happened, and the party has got along

32:43

with Trump and it's a different party. And as we're

32:45

seeing at the state level, these crazy people are

32:47

taking over the party at the local state

32:49

level. And then it's a big question what do we do with

32:51

third party? Try to fight to reform

32:53

the Republican Party. I just wrote a piece yesterday

32:55

say, yeah, maybe what we do is try to help Joe Biden be as

32:57

good at president as possible and accepted for now

33:00

where they're kind of ex Republican wing of the Democratic

33:02

Party. And we're not gonna be happy with everything the Democrats

33:05

do. But what democrat is happy with everything

33:07

the Democrats do? You know? So I'm very proud

33:09

of the Bulwark. That website is the Bulwark

33:11

dot com. The Bulwark dot com. Yeah, I'm

33:13

so grateful to hear you say that. You want to hear

33:16

Biden succeed, and I would want a

33:18

McCain administration or so forth to succeed

33:20

as well. And I just singled

33:23

out Trump with I just thought Trump was different.

33:25

This is different, because that's

33:27

what horrified me about the election when they

33:29

voted for him in two thousand and sixteen. I

33:32

thought that my said, well, you didn't know. Now

33:34

you know, you voted for him again and you knew

33:36

what you knew. I totally agree. I think such an important

33:38

point. I mean, I've said that an election

33:40

night. We did a live stream with the bullwork this you know

33:42

it and at midnight, and it was

33:45

pretty clear that Biden was gonna win once the late

33:47

vote you know, came in and Philadelphia and so forth.

33:49

But I was pretty depressed. And people said after

33:51

this, and it was because it wasn't enough of repudiation

33:53

and because seventy four million people

33:56

voted for Trump after four years of Trump and

33:59

you know, you could talk yourself into thinking, shake

34:02

things up, kind of useful business guy,

34:05

and they'll keep in lie and the other people

34:07

of the party outside. Yeah,

34:09

And I didn't agree with it, obviously,

34:12

and I think it was a short sighted and foolish but it

34:14

was you could be honestly a decent

34:16

person and think that. I think I kind

34:18

of talk yourself into it. I have trouble.

34:21

I mean with thete seventy

34:23

four million people for Trump after watching

34:25

him for four years, there's something really worrisome

34:27

about that. Over the arc of

34:29

your considerable career. And

34:32

I'm not saying this to be kind. I mean, you're such a smart

34:35

and you're such a blazingly articulate guy.

34:37

Why haven't you run for

34:39

office? Did you ever contemplate that? Ever? You

34:42

know, once or twice? This is funny. In the nineties,

34:44

so the Bush I was in the regular Bush administrations.

34:46

We lost, obviously, and so I was kind of a

34:49

free person in January ninety three, trying to figure

34:51

what to do next. Ended up starting the Weekly Standard

34:53

magazine about two years later, two and half years later.

34:55

But and a few people did say, come back to New York

34:57

and run for something, and it just didn't seem

35:00

I don't have the personality of a politician. I am

35:02

not. I am not a hail fellow. Well, Matt, I think

35:04

I'm a polite person, but I'm probably too

35:07

just not really into the no retail politics

35:09

for you now, I don't think sitting at all these long dinners

35:11

and pretending to be interested by everyone's speeches

35:14

and all that. I I, what about appointments we ever

35:16

approached about in an appointment? Wells, I served

35:18

in the regular Bush administration. I of course,

35:20

yeah, what did you do in those two administrations?

35:23

So I was I went to Washington eight five

35:25

that this is a pretty young thirty

35:27

two, I guess. I was a speechwriter for a bit for Bill

35:29

Bennett and then became his chief of staff of the Education

35:31

Department. That was a different era. I think

35:34

Bill was a you know, he was controversial, but he

35:36

was a forced for education reform and stuff. We

35:38

tried to be civilized where we even though we caused

35:40

some trouble. Then I went into

35:42

the George H. W. Bush White House and worked

35:44

for Dan Quayle, the vice president, and became his chief of staff

35:46

after a few months. And that, of course, yes,

35:49

I got a thick skin, just like you do. You

35:51

know, after four years of being

35:53

of taking grief for that, I'm glad we provided a lot

35:55

of material for a Saturday out live of brothers.

35:58

And he's a good man, honestly, and

36:00

and I think you know, had some bad breaks in terms

36:02

of br and all, and I didn't do a very good job,

36:04

probably assistive of staff helping him overcome

36:06

that. I think he was actually pretty good Vice president. The George

36:08

H. W. Bush administration was a pretty good administration.

36:11

I think historians will judge. Signed some bipartisan

36:13

legislation Clean Air Act, American's Disabilities

36:15

that got the budget deficit going in the right

36:17

direction, ended the Cold War peacefully

36:20

and responsibly, got Sadamo

36:22

saying out of Kuwait, which I think was the right thing to do. We

36:25

just got Cooberate, we got colloberd In No

36:27

people want to change twelve years of Reagan. Bush

36:30

Clinton was an attractive candidate. Good

36:32

lesson that. You know, election results

36:34

don't always correlate maybe with what's deserved.

36:36

But anyway, that was my last Uh

36:39

yeah, I have a good record of being on That was the one

36:41

campaign I was most involved in, the ninety two Bush Cuil

36:43

reelect, and we got and we got and we

36:45

got crushed. So that's my I've had a very

36:47

I've had a very consistent electoral That's what another

36:49

reason I didn't get into electoral politics from the

36:51

very beginning. I've never been really much of a success

36:54

in that area. Do you think Trump has anything

36:56

to worry from side Vance and New York? Yeah,

36:59

I don't know a thing more than I've read, but yeah,

37:01

I think he does. Yeah. He certainly went out of his way,

37:03

fought all the hard to keep his tax returns and business

37:06

records out of their hands. And usually if

37:08

people do that, that's because they don't want prosecutors.

37:11

They think they're worried about what prosecutors will find. Why

37:13

do you think the Republican Party can't shake their

37:15

addiction to Trump? So? I think for the

37:17

elites it is it is somewhat fear

37:19

and opportunitism. But I think for a lot

37:22

of the voters, I just think we can't overestimate

37:24

how much Trump unleashed

37:26

a lot of things they had been feeling and

37:29

anxieties, concerns, but also bigotries

37:31

and hatreds frankly, and resentments.

37:34

And once people are told it's fine, you should say

37:36

things that you wouldn't in the past, they might have thought these

37:38

things. I'm not. I don't have a polyaddish view

37:41

exactly. That's what I say to people. What Trump

37:43

did was there were things that we knew

37:45

that half the country felt this way.

37:47

They have their prejudices, their racism, their

37:49

anti semitism, their misogyny or whatever. But

37:51

he didn't say that, and it makes a big difference.

37:54

If you don't say it and can't say it, because it does mean

37:56

that you sort of are acknowledging, then that's

37:58

not quite respectable. Look in a

38:00

better world, people wouldn't think it in the first place.

38:02

But in a decent world, you can still have a decent

38:04

world where people keep it to themselves,

38:06

so to speak, at least most of the time. But

38:09

once the president unleashes it and ratifies

38:11

it and justifies it and fosters it,

38:14

it's very hard to put that toothpaste back

38:16

in the tube. Bill

38:20

Crystal, editor at large

38:22

of the Bulwark dot Com.

38:24

I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening

38:27

to Here's the Thing. We're

38:29

produced by Kathleen Russo, Carrie

38:31

donohue and Zach McNeice. Our

38:34

engineer is Frank Imperial. Thanks

38:36

for listening.