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Music - 00:00:00: You can't stop me, nothing's going to stand in my way Don - 00:00:07: Hello, this is Donald Thompson. Welcome to High Octane Leadership in an Empathetic World. And I'm really excited today. We have a lot to celebrate. June is Pride Month. And we also want to look at some topics that are a little bit tough often to discuss, but are really, really important in today's landscape relative to the LGBTQ+ community, relative to how do we process information, and really how do you have discussions where people may have varying points of view, but how do you have those discussions in a thoughtful and empathetic, but yet a powerful way? And I have two very, very good friends, colleagues, and very, very strong perspectives, which got everyone to the table. So I want to introduce Susie Silver and Royce Hoffner, and welcome to the show. Susie - 00:00:53: Thank you. Don - 00:00:54: So Royce, before we get started, and then Susie, I'll pass it to you. Just give a little background. Who you are, what you do, why you're here, all that good stuff. and then we'll do the same for Susie, and then we'll jump into a couple topics that are going to be fun. Royce - 00:01:04: Background is always fun. So I hear The Diversity Movement. I am the Marketing and Communications Specialist. My background is primarily in all things marketing with folks in video and photo. I'm a queer kid born and raised in rural Colorado. Recently moved to Raleigh. I absolutely love it here. Still discovering things. I still feel like the new guy on the block. So yeah, that's me. Don - 00:01:31: Good, Susie. Susie - 00:01:32: Yes, hi, I'm Susie. I am a Senior Consultant and Innovation Strategist on the team here at The Diversity Movement. I joined in February of 21. And prior to joining, I was consulting on my own as many of us were. And Don asked a question, wouldn't you love to do this with a team? And my answer was a big yes with lots of exclamation points. But with Pride Consulting was founded in 2015. I also have a background in public education. I'm an artist and definitely a serial entrepreneur. So happy to be here and I do love our team. Don - 00:02:05: Yeah, so I am thankful for the time that you all have carved out today. And one of the things that I want to ask just to warm us up and get moving, what does Pride Month mean to you? Right? Because a lot of times when you have a month and you have the different celebrations, sometimes things can lose sight of its core over time. But what does Pride Month mean to you? And I'll start with you, Royce. Royce - 00:02:28: I think for me that obviously celebration is a huge part of it, but I think that as I have grown up, and when I say grown up, I just really mean into like adulthood. I didn't come out until I was... I started coming out around 21, didn't fully come out to my parents until I was like 25, I believe, and, or parents and family. And I think for me, as I've learned our history, as I've learned just where it started, it's a giant party in a lot of ways now, but I think that historically it started out as a resistance movement, as pushing back against not being allowed to be ourselves. And unfortunately, currently, I think we're re-entering some of that. I think people are having to confront the fact that pride is not just a time to get together and party. Obviously, that's a part of it, but I think that pride ultimately, first and foremost, is a protest and a desire to be treated equally. Don - 00:03:28: No. Susie - 00:03:28: I love that. And similar to you, I did not come out and actually I was outed at the age of 27. But looking back as a kid in the 80s and 90s, didn't have a lot of representation, didn't have a lot of positive representation, didn't understand the history as you just mentioned, as I do now. So, pride to me, first for the self is survival and resilience. And that's how many people in our community feel as well. And then acknowledging the history and the protest and the fight and all of that for this month is really important. And then I agree with you. Actually this Pride Month feels different. It feels different. And to everything you were saying, Royce, and so generally speaking, to answer that, which I already did, and then this year, it's the duality of it. And not being afraid of that, but stepping up to that in an honest truth of there is celebration, there's always remembering of the resistance, the resilience, there's also the joy, the power, the freedom, and we're going to continue fighting for that. Don - 00:04:39: No, I appreciate that very much. One of the things that you mentioned that I do want to unpack for a little bit is that this month feels different this year, right? And there's a lot of discussion about all things LGBTQ+ in the community, but there's also a lot of things relative to attack. whether it's from a legal standpoint, whether it's banning books, whether it is backlash from marketing campaigns and different things. And so one of the things I'd like to hear from you all, and I have thoughts, but I want to hear from you all as well, is let's look at it at the business lens first, and let's just talk about a little bit from the marketing standpoint. And there's things that are going on, whether it's at Target or the Anheuser-Busch things. What are some of the things you're seeing, and what's your take on some of the not-so-great consequences for trying to do good things and the barometer shifting a little bit in a little bit more negative fashion, unfortunately. Susie - 00:05:34: I'll jump in. I have lots of feelings about this. Specifically with Anheuser-Busch, the striving to do the right thing, well, to me, in the marketing sense... They didn't fully focus on who their audience is and their demographic and where they're at. So while I believe there's an end goal, a goal of showing more diversity, let's say just focus on the LGBTQ+ community, what's the strategic plan to get there? What's the why? How does that link to your demographic? What are your goals for potentially shifting your demographic? There's opportunity there. And so to me, the noise is the noise. And okay, in the business sense, let's talk about what actually probably didn't happen, what questions weren't asked, whose perspectives weren't at those tables making this decision. And so of course I'm going to support my community showing up more. What about linking more to even the athletic world? Anheuser-Busch is very much linked to the athletic world. And think about demographics and the community within that and then expand there, right? That we know that there's almost a comfort. And of course we want to push out of comfort. We don't want to continue to feed into comfort. Not at all. That is not the point of what I'm saying, but what was the plan? What were the questions, the perspectives? Now with Target, and I'll pass to you Royce, with Target, that was a complete abandonment of said values of an organization. That's why it's horrific. So instead of stepping up and saying, we're going to continue to run the Pride line, we're going to keep it up front in a store, which for out there, the Pride line was moved to the back of the store and swept and things were recalled, items were recalled. And because there were some very loud visual protests to having Pride and lots of made up stories of things, honestly, I don't even know if it's worth our attention quite frankly. And they reacted target, meaning they target reacted to, we're going to change all these things that we set our values, supporting queer artists, having the marketing, having the products, and what actually won the values? Then are your values performative? Can I actually trust you as a brand anymore outside of Pride Month? Am I going to spend my money there? And then what I thought about most are the queer employees. How did they feel? Did they feel safe coming to work? So think about some of these noisy people, hire a little bit more security. Double down and say, these are our values here, so why? And we're going to support everybody in our store. So those are my two big things that are on top of mind. But of course, in the business sense, what do we talk about every day? What are our plans? What are our whys? How do we look at our values? And with a lot of the increasing diversity and reaching audiences and creating that trust, these are huge missteps. Huge. Don - 00:08:32: Yes, ditto to all that. Um. Royce - 00:08:36: I think, going back to where I started, I think that looking upon our history is really, is an important lens to look through. And I think that I agree with you in the sense that, I learned from the older queers in my life that Target has been, was one of the earliest supporters when we look at from a corporate lens. And so when I started having a more diverse group of friends, I had older queer friends, they were like, well, we shop at Target. Why? Because they were supporting for a long time. Same could be said with like Subaru. There's these companies that have been there before it was cool. And I think this is something that the queer community has really started talking about in recent years is rainbow washing, which is like, you want to paint everything in rainbows for June. You want to make the money, you want to do all that. But then minute June's over, like, yeah, we're still supporting the candidates that don't care about you, all that stuff. And I think, I agree with you, I think Target is a much different conversation than the Anheuser-Busch. Anheuser-Busch, it was a disaster. I don't think I'm frankly surprised by it. I agree with you. What in the world were the conversations going on ahead of time? When it first started to happen, it was wild to watch the pendulum, if you will. I had so many friends being like, oh my God, we going to buy Bud Light, like to support them and all this stuff. And it wasn't four days later, and everyone's like, oh my God, never buy Bud Light. Like, it was just this like, and those trends, I think we have to be very cautious about, like, it's just, we, I think consumers have to think about businesses very similarly to how we think about any other relationship in our life. Like, how long has this been going on? If you have someone who shows up in your life and they're just fanning the flames, if you will, they come in, they're hot and heavy right from the get-go, right? How, what is that built on? What is the foundation there for how much you can trust them? And I think that that's, especially as queer people, that's something that we have to always be cautious of, especially when we get into the month of June. If someone's running Pride Colors in November, they're probably on our side. And I think that that's something to be aware of, but I agree, I think the target thing is really tough, because I think that, It just, it hurts to see a rollback. And to the point you made earlier, I think that's what makes this Pride a little bit different is I think some of the... if you will, the things that have felt like really secure. I think there's a lot of questions around that. I think everyone's holding their breath over like the Supreme Court and like, is marriage actually secure? And so things like Target, I think play into that where it's like, do we have as much support as we thought we did? So. Don - 00:11:24: I would add in that when you are part of a community and the goal is to move that community forward, I think pacing matters. And when I look at the Anheuser-Busch example and putting a trans icon on the bottle not knowing your audience, it's just not helpful. Because people that need to support in a financial way the LGBTQ+ community don't also want to lose $27 billion in valuation. That's math. People don't want to lose money by doing the right thing. And so what could have been different in terms of understanding the audience and creating that trust, creating that support, but doing so in a way that it's stair steps with what that audience can continue to consume and be comfortable with. Comfort is not the end goal, but it is a part of change. Because if you stretch something too far and it breaks, then what happens is it goes backwards. And what I've found is the naysayers around diversity, equity, and inclusion will point to these items and say, that's why our company doesn't need to do that. And so I was shared with you earlier, Royce, and I was having a conversation with my dad. He's 70 years old, African-American from the deep, deep south. And so if you put any stereotypes on what his beliefs were 10, 20 years ago, you'd probably be right. And my daughter, who came out as gay, and she was 18, that was an awakening for our family and not because of her coming out as gay, but we always wanted to make sure that everyone in our family felt loved and supported. And we just came to grips with, wait a minute, what were we doing in our environment that she didn't feel like she could be her full, complete self with us? And so we unpacked a lot of that as a family. But anyway, Sierra, in simple humble brag, she just raised close to $20,000 for her first independent film. And so we texts, we had our own speakerphone at the house over the weekend, and several of our family members were there, and then we were just cheering for her. And we were just so excited, and she was telling us about the process and all that. So Sierra hangs up the phone, and me and my dad are talking. And my dad goes, man, he says, I really support everyone. I want people to love who they want to love and be safe and all these things. He says, but why do they have to have so many letters? He said, I don't know what all the letters mean, right? And the thing about it is, I hear that from my dad or I hear that from other folks, how do we make things simple for people that want to be an ally? and be a part of this movement and mission, but they don't have to have every vocabulary word right or every meaning right, but they can just be for those that are different and need a helping hand. Royce - 00:14:00: Yeah, this is something that I... I have an interesting opinion on the alphabet, if you will, because on the one hand, I see it as incredibly important. I think that when we get into minute detail, the complexity of the human experience, whether you want to talk about it from a lens of gender or sexuality or lived experience or race, I think these things are incredibly important and they're beautiful and they add all of the colors of the rainbow, if you will, to humanity. At the same time, they're a really easy way to make people feel pushed out of a group. And so I think that no matter what we're talking about, we always have to return to this place of, what is the intent, right? And I think with what you're talking about with your dad, you knew his intent. His intent is he cares. His intent is, and so is that the moment? And maybe it is. I think sometimes when the conversation is good, that is a moment to lean in and be like, well, let's talk about the letters. If that's something you feel educated, not you specifically, but if you do. But if that's something you feel like you can help to educate so that people understand why those letters matter, that's great. But, I've also heard people put the letters together wrong, right? Like in the wrong order. And I've seen people intensely overreact to that. People should be allowed to interact with it however they want, but I think that oftentimes we miss the goal by focusing too much on the things that are too inside the group, if you will, the group knowledge, when it's something that you're consuming and interacting with every day, it's really easy to understand why there are all the letters, why they each individually matter, and why we should talk about them. But if you're not someone who interacts with that on a daily basis, It's a hard thing in my opinion to hold someone to that. No matter how we're talking about it, I think the same could be said with any of it. Something I had to deal with really early on is that if we're going to really break it down, I identify as bisexual. I don't care what you call me though. People refer to me as gay, people refer to me as queer. I tend to refer to myself as queer because I just don't think any of that matters unless we're going to really sit down and talk about why I'm whatever letter and why it matters. And I think that's a part that for some people, that letter's really important. But I think that, yeah, when it comes to those bigger things, we have to be really aware of, can we bring people in to be that ally or are we going to ostracize by making them feel illiterate? Don - 00:16:39: I'm going to make a statement and then Susie, I'm going to give you some space. I think it's really important that we give a little bit more room for people that are learning and to understand because there's people that want to be for folks that are in underrepresented groups. They don't have the knowledge background but you can push them back when there is this, I guess, intense correction. Right? Because they're already a little bit nervous about things they don't know, and they're trying to be helpful. And I think the big thing is, back to your point of intent and tone, I really listen to what is somebody trying to communicate to me, not just the words, but how does it feel when it comes across? And if it feels genuine and thoughtful, like I'm not interested in whether you call me black or African American or black, people are like, I don't really care. I just want to know are you for an equal playing field at work or not? That's what I'm searching for, but Susie, I'll give you some space. Susie - 00:17:36: I wholeheartedly agree with both of you. And that's exactly what I was going to say, is that's the space. And sometimes the reaction or the lack of space creates a distraction from the goal. And actually Melanie on our team and I had this conversation, walked around the building three times last week and had this conversation of what is the goal? What is distracting from those goals? And sometimes it is this lack of space and understanding. And to your point, if there's such a harsh reaction to a genuine human misstep, then that person or group of people We'll just tiptoe back away, and now we've lost the opportunity to connect and have additional allies. Let's say maybe people talking specifically outside of the community and what we would like. Sometimes people say need, people have feelings about saying needing allies. I personally will say I need allies. Don – 00:18:42: I need allies. Susie-00:18:43: I want the allies. And so people are so afraid to say or do the wrong thing. And that's something interfacing, of course, with our clients and partners and Susie, I want to show up. I don't know what to do. I don't know what to say. If I make a mistake, I'm just going to get attacked. How do we operate through? So I am being redundant, right? In a way that, it is critical and I do talk to people within the community of saying, okay. are hurt. It could be hurt, it could be pain, it could be trauma, it could be all kinds of different things as to your point the human experience that actually informs that harsh reaction. So it's the responsibility of all of us to say, well, why is that my reaction? And that's not to invalidate it, it's to understand how to operate through it with the goal in mind of how do we connect, how do we learn from each other, how do we listen to each other and move it forward. Royce - 00:19:43: Something that I picked up from you, and it's really, I've been chewing on it so much in the last couple weeks, is you said, you should never assume negative intent. And I think that that is something that, as I've been processing it, I don't want to derail, but one of the things I've really confronted in the last couple years is that, In general, white people tend to have a lack of community. And I think as a queer person, that is something I have recognized so viscerally as having community that when I go back to the areas I grew up in and stuff, I'm like, this isn't really when we talk about community, there's there's a lot of stuff missing. And I don't want to go too far into that. But the reason I bring it up is I think that. When you lack community and you lack connection to groups of people, it's very easy to assume negative intent. But if you are connected to the people around you, if it's a communal space, we don't inherently assume negative intent. We're then more willing to say, I know that you love me. I know that you care about me, right? This is what we do with our families and the people we're close with. We assume they have our best interest in mind. So they may say something that elicits that response, but then we can lean in and say, where's that response coming from and have a conversation about it. But if we start with assuming the intent is negative, it's very easy to jump then to, oh, well, you don't think I should have rights or you don't think I should have this or that. When the intent may actually just be, I don't understand this or I'm confused or I need some clarification. And yeah, I don't know. Susie - 00:21:18: May I add something to that and something you and I have discussed even this morning about within our own LGBTQ+ community speaking of community We absolutely, I will use the word need here again, we really need to show up for each other more than we are. There's actually a lot of interesting dynamics of understanding, of having reactions, of maybe assuming the negative intent of not having each other's backs. We should all have each other's backs. I'm a cisgender, Female expressing, I'm feminine expressing in my visual, walk down the street, I understand, and we both have talked about this. We acknowledge and absolutely understand the privilege in that, in general, right? In society and world in general. And if we're going into our own community, absolutely as well. And so you have to understand that and then have conversations, ask questions, learn how to show up for each other and throughout the whole community. The way that somebody shows up for me may be different than somebody else, different than Royce. And yeah, we're not going to have all the answers as we talked about, but that's a real connection issue. And specifically at times and in the past, hopefully it's shifting with white cisgender individuals in the LGBTQ+ community. And there's a lot of growth opportunity there. I'm not necessarily, I'm being quite passionate in my tone and my words, but I am passionate about it. of all people, our people, let's show up for each other. Let's ask a question if we don't understand. And so it's just an important point I thought to bring up and appreciated discussing that. Don - 00:22:54: No, I am really encouraged by this dialogue. I think so much of what I hear in politics these days, in the media, starts from a negative point of view and really starts to create that divisiveness. And one of the things that I've learned as a business leader is you don't move forward as fast alone and you don't move forward as fast with fights, because that are draining your energy from progress. So the more that people can get you thinking about small corner issues of distraction and disagreement, then we're not slowing down and going, wait a minute, do we believe that you should have a workplace where everybody feels welcome? we believe we should be in a workplace where everyone can be productive. Do you think that feedback should be given in a way that can be understood and motivated by? Do you think that someone's sexual orientation or gender should affect how they move up through the company? And there's so many points of agreement where you can get people nodding. I really choose to try to focus on those things first because you can then build a much more thoughtful conversation from points of agreement. And that's whether it is LGBTQ+ or whether it is gun control, whether it doesn't matter what the issue is. We have some sensitive issues. I was talking with a business colleague today and they were talking about how one of their groups in the organization had a very healthy, thoughtful, considerate conversation on gun control in the US, because what they wanted to do is number one, they wanted to talk about the issue relative to how they as a company responded to it and different things going on. But number two is they actually wanted to rep and practice how to have tough conversations on real issues. And that is, I think, the central weakness in our politics, in our education, in our business world, is that we don't talk to each other anymore. We talk at, yell at, point at, vilify. We're experts at that. Right, like we're, like as a country, we're experts at that. But anyway, I will step down from my soapbox and ask another question. One of the things that's getting a lot of dialogue is trans women in sports. It's not so much trans men competing in men's sports. It's trans women in sports that is the flash point issue these days. I'm interested in you all's thoughts. And we can practice talking about a tough issue. Royce - 00:25:24: And should we flip a coin? Don - 00:25:27: No, and then I'll say this last piece as a backdrop that I think is really interesting. At the Diversity Movement, we focus primarily, not exclusively, but primarily on the business link of how DEI can build a better workplace. But we can't be naive and expect that politics. The political discussions, the race discussions in our country don't bleed into and impact the way people operate in a business context. And this is something that is coming up a lot across all the conversations I'm having. So I'll start with you this time, Susie. I flipped the mental coin, but what are your thoughts on sports and trans athletes and what's some of your perspective? Susie - 00:26:11: I believe that trans women should be welcomed and able to compete in athletics. That's the main statement. Now let me explain a little bit. Overall, there is not enough evidence in studies to discredit that statement. Now there are some studies of hormone levels and people on testosterone. I mean, there's different hormone therapies, right? And the argument is that transgender women have a larger advantage in competition. And there has been a lot, created by voices that really isn't accurate. Swimmers outperforming. If you actually look at the statistics, it's, well, they did really well, but it's not outperforming because this person is transgender. Something just came up, I believe in the London Marathon. There's all these headlines of how fast this person ran. Well, if you actually looked at all of the statistics, I mean, it was, and I don't have those numbers in front of me. And happy to get them for background information or show notes, but it's not a logical argument. And it's created what is so-called a logical argument because of, honestly, media, because of the politics, because of what you're saying, that polarization of opinion. And at the different levels, right, there's the elite professional, the college or the collegiate. There are conversations there. The Olympic Committee. There are some studies, there are some recommendations, but they're still not completely grounded. There needs to be more evidence. There needs to be more information. And if there happens to show a significant advantage, what would the procedures be? Decisions are being made in athletics without enough information, and they're very blanketed. So, kids that how I love my soccer slash football, not American football, though I like that as well. But, that kids can't go on, play baseball, soccer, basketball, that children, right? And there's really no significant difference of physicality or advantage to, let's say, disadvantage for kids up to puberty. Now, puberty, yeah, our hormones levels change, there's different conversations there. But what's happening as well is we're having a conversation about collegiate and Olympic athletes, and professional athletes, the same conversations being had about an eight-year-old on the soccer field on Saturday. And so there needs to be more differentiation in the conversations, more studies, more evidence, and more engagement with the community, inviting those voices to the table. Don - 00:28:51: Great, thank you for that. Royce - 00:28:53: All right, here we go. So there's a couple things. Number one, I want to go back to what we said of intent. I think intent is so important. If we want to have a conversation about, about sports and how, to your point, Olympics and college level and all that stuff. I think we can have a conversation from a scientific viewpoint and we can do that. I don't see that happening right now. What I see is a lot of hate being labeled as... science. And so I agree with you in the sense that when we start talking about kids playing there's, I don't think If you haven't been a kid that was somehow put down, whether it was because of your gender, your sexuality, your skin color, whatever. You don't understand what it's like to experience that, first of all. And what's even worse is I don't know if any of us know what it's like to experience that on a national scale. We're talking about states here where, and I don't have it in front of me, but there's a state where literally they passed a law and there's one trans athlete in the, that's who it is. It’s one person. Susie - 00:30:10: It's one person. Royce - 00:30:12: And we have put how many thousands of dollars into state legislature and time and media. And anyways, we have such bigger problems than, and I want to make it very clear. Trans people are not the problem. I'm not saying that like this is a problem. I'm saying that we are, what we should be focused on is how do we make kids feel helped and supported and cared for and this movement of it's about the children makes me want to punch a hole in a wall and I'm not a very violent person because if we really wanted to talk about those things, we would not be pointing the finger at anyone in the LGBTQ+ community. We all know who we'd be pointing fingers at, and it makes a lot of people really uncomfortable, but it's the truth. And I think that's the part that we've got to focus in on. This hasn't been about the children from the get-go. It's still not about the children. It's about labeling hate as science. The fact that I really like to bring up in this topic specifically is the only reason that sports are gendered if we go all the way back. Historically, women started gaining more rights and gaining more access, and they wanted to play sports too. There were no women's teams, so women started playing on the men's teams. They started outperforming men, and the men were like, whoa, we can't, this can't happen, so what happened? We created women's sports, which we don't fund the same, we don't give as much media time to, right? So this is just a continuation of, sexism, racism, we can put it in all the other isms. It's just a continuation of discrimination. And hot take is the person who's not really that into sports. If we really want to have sports, I think we need to, if we want to come at it from this scientific angle, then I think that's what it should be treated on. Let's talk about weight classes. Let's talk about height classes. Is it fair that Michael Phelps competed? Like when we start having these conversations, it just boggles my mind as someone who isn't as sportsy as everyone else, because I'm like, well, what is fair? The guy's got a longer arm span than I am tall, and I'm like six, two. I'm like, so is that fair to the same guy who's swimming against him? Anyways, I just think it's an interesting conversation that we've started having rather than celebrating sports for what they are, which is just humans playing games. I don't know. Don - 00:32:35: So I have a couple of thoughts also. Royce - 00:32:37: Yeah, I’m sure. Don - 00:32:38: So this will give us a chance to debate with empathy. I do think when kids primarily are younger, and I'll use the sport baseball. I played a lot of sports coming up. But baseball was co-ed, in my experience, up until about 11 or 12, right? Because that's where the physical changes become very, very significant. and the pace of play is very significant. And one of the things about baseball, not playing football and different things, but I'll use baseball because there's baseball, there's a better correlation, right, than some other sports. But. you had trials. I'm a skill-based. You had your lower skill business, maybe it's A, then you have AA, then you have AAA at all of the different ages. And so then based on those skills, you would then slot the teams. So it really didn't matter any of the things we're discussing relative to baseball. There was a very objective, mostly objective, valuation. How fast do you run from home plate to first base to second base and third all the way home? Right? You throw the ball. How fast do you throw the ball? How accurate are you? Right? And so those kinds of things allow, I think, in the younger ages, which are good. My daughter, Suiyara, who I've mentioned a couple times, was very big in martial arts for a number of years. I don't want her in competition with someone that has a physical advantage and could physically hurt her. And since I don't know someone's hormone levels, since I don't have their science, since there's all kinds of health information, proprietary things, that makes it very difficult as a parent to then look at those more physical sports and different things and have an opinion, right? But I always will go for safety. It's not even about that competitive landscape or track or swimming or different things. Anything that has a physical component, I'm a little bit more weary, and that gets higher and higher in degree of risk, the older and the more sophisticated, right, those sports become. And so that's my perspective. I also think that we are also having conversations that are corner cases. We're having a lot of dialogue, and this is more than sports. And I'll move into the trans community in a minute in terms of the overall view. We're having a lot of conversations about a very small percentage of the population at whole. that are being used as a proxy for the entire conversation about diversity, equity, and inclusion. And I don't think that's good. I think that it's in fact, it's another way that people are moving us backwards. by creating the most divisive, the newest conversation, and using that dialogue to now be an umbrella of why all things DEI are bad, why all things LGBTQ+ are bad. And I think it's a setup. And I don't think we shouldn't play on those terms. And that's why when I'm listening to people that are talking to me about corner cases, I roll it back to, do you believe in gender-pay equity? Well, yeah, of course. Do you believe buildings should have wheelchairs so that people that need different accommodations to get in the building? Yeah, I think that makes sense. Do you think you should have transparency on how your company does promotions and different things? Do you think you'd have a more diverse company because they're successor? Yes. Okay, cool. Now that we've talked about these 18 things, let's talk about this one thing that you disagree with. But I really, really try not to get drawn into, right, the corner cases to start, because that makes it a much more antagonistic conversation. And I've struggled over the years to make progress, right, when I'm fighting with someone about a specific thing. Royce- 00:36:29: I think you hit on a really, I agree, 100%. And I think you're hitting on something that... I regularly feel of of that look over here, not over here, right? I could be wrong, but I'm pretty positive I'm right. Black trans women are the most at-risk group in the United States, period. Why is that never talked about anywhere? And to your point, that doesn't make up a lion's share of the people we're talking about in sports, right? And so why safety? Don - 00:37:04: But you're talking about. Royce - 00:37:06: Right, right. Don - 00:37:07: And I will interrupt. In that conversation about diversity, equity, and inclusion, I think everyone would agree that people should be safe at work, safe in where they go to worship, safe at where they go shop for groceries for them and their family. And I just think it's smart to now focus on items to where I can get agreement fast. But I interrupted you. Royce - 00:37:27: No, no. And that's okay, because I think we're on the same page here. It's about safety. Until we address that fact, we're why are we talking about sports? To your point, it's this corner thing of like, okay, you what? Let's, when we have, when everyone is safe, when everyone is being fed, everyone's got a job, right? When we have solved those issues, then yeah, let's talk about how we're going to set up the scientific analysis of how we're going to redefine the sports, like in my opinion, that's how. Don – 00:37:56: For the one person in West Virginia. Royce – 00:37:59: Yeah, right, like that's my opinion. Don - 00:38:01: And it's important to that one person, but from a business standpoint, we also do have to look at the numbers and how do we move a movement forward? And we've gotta stay on tasks to where we don't get sidetracked with something that's so new, so divisive, that we don't make as much progress as we can, right? And go from there. Other thoughts, because I want to give you back the mic if you had other thoughts before we move topics. Susie - 00:38:29: I think it goes back to the point we even talked about about marketing. It's what you said, it's distracting points. It's being manipulated as a conversation for distraction, for that common goal, for those, if it's business, if it's community, if it's, it is a complete play. And that's all I wanted to add. Don - 00:38:49: I was talking with a business leader and gentlemen, and one I enjoy, the work that I do that we do. And this leader trusted me and said, Don, I'm really struggling with the LGBTQ+ conversation in our organization. I'm a very strong Christian. I don't believe that that is the way that I should raise my kids in X, Y, Z. And I said, okay, I'm just listening. And I said, well. At what point did we describe that you needed to believe, understand everything versus creating a better workplace, being a better manager, being a better leader? And he paused. And I said, really, what I'd like you to consider is how having a better understanding of people that are different from you and how you can lead better at work. but I'm not trying to change you. I'm not saying there's no room in the world for what you believe, but what we need to do is create an environment where your beliefs don't infringe the way that you treat people at work and that you can be a better leader for a broader number of folks. He said, I can do that. He said, but that's not how it felt. I said, I can do that. I said, listen, we can, over a glass of wine, we can talk about faith and different things. If you and I want to do that as friends and different things and have that discussion, right? And I'm a Christian, I have perspectives and we can have that discussion. I said, but really in the context of diversity, equity, and inclusion and building a better workplace, we're talking about productivity. We're talking about you work in an institution that you have clients that you want to understand better, right? I said, you do realize that there's $1.4 trillion in buying power in the LGBTQ+ community. Do you want some of that money in your business? Uh, yes I would. I said, so then maybe your marketing should be thoughtful and welcoming to a broader group of folks. And once we tied it to a construct that this leader could understand and didn't feel like someone was trying to force change upon them, we talked about the expanding of our thinking. Right, and I think personally, and this is me personally, change in my thought process has come the more I'm open to understanding others. Anytime somebody forces me to change an idea, I'm as resistant as any other human. I don't want to, I'm fine. You get real defensive. But when it's about learning something new, when it's about being better as a leader, those things, and for me, I've been able to grow faster because my network has expanded. Susie and I work together, but Susie's a friend of mine. I want to know how her kids are doing. I want to know how her wife is doing. Right. And so now when I see things in the news and issues, I'm thinking about how they affect Susie and her family, how we work with Andy and how they feel and things that they're doing. Royce is now a friend of mine as well as a colleague at work. And I think so many folks don't have a broad enough network. Royce - 00:41:44: Yes. Don - 00:41:44: That it's tough for them to have a real empathetic perspective because their friends are all the same. Same country club, same school, same church. And it's just that one thing. And so it makes change feel negative just because it's different. So anyway, I'm interested in your thoughts on that. Royce - 00:42:02: I could not agree more with that. I think that one of the hardest, this goes back to what I was saying about community. I think that, as someone, my experience with understanding how wildly vast and different the world is, is one that always makes me laugh, because I grew up in very conservative, like Rural Colorado, right? Very Christian, very red, like that's just what I thought the world was. And then I moved to Northern Colorado, brightest blue dot in the Midwest, right? And then came out and then took some steps away from religion. Like I had been so damaged by religion that I was like, yeah, I can't be both queer and religious. And then I met a queer Christian and I was like, I'm sorry, what are you? Like, what is this thing that's going on? Don – 00:42:51: How'd you get to do that? Royce – 00:42:53: Yeah, it's like meeting a new animal in the wild. And like, and it was this moment of realizing that it does not matter how, the human experience is so vast, right? And I think the thing that so many of us can't wrap our minds around is that just because we haven't experienced something, means that that's how everyone else feels or sees it. And that's so not true. And I just saw this thing recently that Brene Brown was talking about this exact thing of that we're all, as society has grown, we've gotten really good at listening, but we have not gotten very good at believing. And I really sat with that because what it means is that when a, when a woman tells me about her experience. Do I just listen or do I believe her that that is what her experience as a woman is? When a black person or individual tells me what their experience is being black in the United States, do I just listen or do I believe them that that's what the experience is? And I think that I've really had to confront some of that even in, in, And I think that's what you and I both were almost tiptoeing around in the beginning is it's like, I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings by being like, I don't know about that. I don't personally really need the whole alphabet. If someone else does though, that's their experience. And I believe for them that that's important. That also has to go the other way. They have to believe me when I say, it's not as important to me. And we're both valid in that. And so that community, I agree with you. I think that when we, my own parents who I love dearly, it was a big ride. Their journey has been huge. And our journey together has been huge because they went from being very conservative Christians to now being somewhere far less conservative, still Christians. And I think that that change, watching them change because of that direct connection, because it was like, we have a kid, we care about our kid more than any of the rest of this stuff. So how are we going to line it up? And I think watching that happen, oh, I'm incredibly lucky. Like, yeah, it's a very rare story for queer people. And I'm extremely grateful to them. But watching them has really cemented exactly what, and you and I talked a little bit about this this morning. I'm the type where it's like, I have told friends of mine, I have told family members, like, if you meet someone and they don't know a queer person and they got a gajillion questions, I don't care how uncomfortable the question is. I don't care what it's about. They can call me. They can text me. They can email me. Like, I'm that person. There's a lot of people who aren't those people, and I don't expect everyone to be that. Don - 00:45:33: I am that person. Susie - 00:45:35: I am that person. All of us around the table. Royce - 00:45:38: Right. Don - 00:45:38: You need a black friend when you have a black friend. Royce - 00:45:41: Yeah. Yeah. Don - 00:45:43: Take American expense. Apple pay. All good man. Spend no Cash App Susie - 00:45:46: Spend no Cash App. Royce - 00:45:49: We'll do a buy one, get one, get Don and Royce. Don - 00:45:52: Black, black wearing game. Royce - 00:45:54: Yeah, we got it, we got it. But no, I think a lot of people fear what they don't know. I think we all do. I think we all fear what we don't know. And if you can have that person to put a face to, I think it makes it a lot easier to connect. Susie - 00:46:09: Yeah. Don - 00:46:11: Yeah. Susie - 00:46:12: Building bridges and the storytelling, the network, the having the noise be silenced a bit. I talk about the noise a lot. Well, what does that mean? We all have noise that's different from each other, standard noise what we consume. What's the media we consume? Is that social media, written media, visual media? What is the noise and how? It's some of those same questions. What's the goal of learning from this or listening to this? Am I learning or listening? What is that? So the noise, if we can get people to a place, one in the business sense, not to repeat what you said, I absolutely agree as well. And then on the personal sense of, I don't believe in this. Well... I'm not, of course, I have to be honest. Of course I want you to change your mind in the end, but I also don't approach the work that way. I don't approach the work that way here. I don't approach it in my community. Absolutely not. It is to meet each other where we're at, to try to silence some of this noise. Where's a great place? Literally, we could talk. Is that over our coffee? Is that on a Zoom call if that's more comfortable? Let's ask each other questions. Can we tell each other a story? And what can I listen and learn? And then I love that, believe. And for me, I held onto my own story for a very long time. And I started telling it for multiple reasons, but what I realized, it wasn't about me anymore. It was about building the bridge or the connection to just, I cannot tell you how many people said, I literally have not met anybody in the queer community. Thank you for sharing your story. And I'm thinking about something different. If whether that wasn't agreeing or disagreeing, that was, I'm thinking about something differently, or I haven't thought about it that way, or I was unaware of, to me, I can go to bed every night understanding that that is a step to progress. And there's not distraction in it. There wasn't noise in that. Sometimes there's tears, sometimes there's respectful discourse, and that's okay. It doesn't make it easy for anybody at times involved, including many of us. A lot of pain, I've said that before, a lot of trauma that I can speak for myself. There's healing and continuation in that journey, but that's where we can also build it together. Let's tell each other our stories. And it's about that iceberg. We always do that DEI iceberg is not unique to us, right? Sometimes I feel like, so overused to a point, but to people that are really starting, really trying to understand, well, what does this mean to you? Iceberg meaning what's visible? What do you willingly share? What's invisible? What don't you share? Not asking everybody to share everything about themselves with everyone, but what could we step into that helps? The goal helps the, this conversation keeps going back to the same themes, right? And so that's what I would add, but agree with both of you. Don - 00:49:06: I'll wind us down. I could talk to you all all day. But there is work to be done. But I will say I've enjoyed and appreciate your candor, the commitment you all share to the work that we're doing. And we're making a difference. And in the sea of noise where people are trying to create divisiveness, we're creating opportunities for change and renewal and unity. And we're doing that hard work because it isn't easy. This is not the easiest environment to stand up a business talking about diversity, equity, inclusion in today's workforce. But it's super rewarding with the thousands of people that we touch and the way that we're helping organizations grow. And to be an empathetic leader in a High Octane world simply means you have to think about the future with an open mind. and things are going to consistently change. And if you're going to be ahead of that change, right, then you've gotta be different on purpose. You've gotta learn with intent and you've gotta expand your network. And I'm better because both of you are in my network. And so thank you all both for being here with me today. Susie - 00:50:17: Thank you.