0:00

Hey everybody , welcome to High Spirits

0:02

. It's episode 42 . I'm

0:04

Ben Larson and with me , as always , is

0:07

Anna Rae Grabstein . We're recording

0:09

Thursday , may 9th 2024

0:12

. And we have an awesome show for

0:14

you today , got my good friend Chris

0:16

Jackson coming on the show . We do a lot of work

0:18

together on NCIA . He's

0:20

the executive director of the Michigan Black

0:22

Caucus Legislative Black Caucus and just doing a director of the the Michigan

0:24

black caucus legislative black caucus , um , and just

0:26

doing a ton of work across the Midwest

0:28

. I'm going to see him in DC next week

0:31

and so we're going to cover we're

0:33

going to cover a lot today , uh , but before

0:35

we go there , anna Rae

0:37

, what's been , uh , keeping you busy

0:39

this week ? Oh my gosh .

0:40

I have had this narrative

0:42

on repeat in my head . John

0:44

Schroer , with Green Market Report , wrote

0:47

an article at the beginning of the week about

0:49

how the top 20 public companies

0:51

in cannabis are just losing billions of dollars

0:54

, and there's only one that's posted

0:56

net income this year , and that is

0:58

Green Thumb , and the other 19

1:00

collectively have lost over

1:02

$2 billion

1:05

on less than $9

1:07

billion of revenue .

1:08

Oh wow . And

1:11

does that include their tax bill that they're not paying

1:13

? I don't think so .

1:16

You know , I talk with a lot of

1:18

small and mid-sized companies that are going through

1:20

a lot of expansion and growth and I dive

1:23

into their numbers with them and understand how

1:25

they're doing , and it's just

1:27

shocking to me how I see the lots of smaller

1:29

companies that

1:33

are so much stronger from a

1:35

performance perspective and a profitability

1:38

perspective and have really shifted through

1:41

the winds of change and complication

1:43

. And then we've got these

1:45

public companies that have to share their data

1:47

with us and it just looks like garbage

1:49

. So that's been this

1:51

narrative in the back of my head of like what

1:53

is it with these 20

1:56

public companies and why

1:58

are they losing so much money and where is

2:00

it going , like all the things that these small

2:02

companies could be doing , with the billions

2:04

of dollars being lost by these big companies

2:07

?

2:09

It's just mind boggling , it's

2:13

interesting , you know , like coming out of the tech space

2:15

when companies are losing that much money

2:17

. It's known that you're at this kind

2:19

of growth at all costs kind

2:21

of strategy which has been

2:23

rewarded in the tech space , whether it's

2:25

through acquisition or exits

2:28

or just perpetual fundraising

2:30

. But in this case

2:32

that doesn't seem to

2:34

apply , and so

2:36

you got to wonder what

2:38

happens when those

2:40

coffers run dry , because I think

2:42

the retail investors have

2:45

gotten hip to the fact that the

2:47

green rush is not so much a rush

2:49

, it's more of a trickle .

2:52

So true , so true . How about you ? What's

2:55

been in your head this week ?

2:59

More of always the same . It's all about

3:01

beverage , Always , but especially

3:03

right now . We are nearing the end

3:05

of the legislative session , especially

3:08

here in California , and there's

3:10

just a really impactful bill on

3:12

the docket right now , AB 2223

3:15

. We've talked about it in the past and

3:17

it's , as is , quite

3:20

detrimental to not only , you

3:24

know , the the the hemp beverage category that

3:26

that's proliferating , but all of hemp operators

3:28

in California and I don't know if that's that's

3:31

the intent . It is kind of like that pendulum

3:33

swing that we we often talk about in politics

3:36

is , um , you know , there

3:38

there's a massive uh

3:40

regret about AB 45

3:42

, which was about three years ago when that passed and

3:45

the loophole it created to

3:48

allow intoxicating hemp products

3:50

into the marketplace

3:52

, and so the same

3:54

author of that bill is now trying

3:57

to correct with the current bill . And

3:59

it's interesting , I

4:01

think , think in

4:03

the author's ear in the previous bill

4:05

was the US Hemp Roundtable and

4:08

this time it is Origins Council

4:11

, which is a group of

4:13

growers out

4:15

of the north counties of California

4:18

, Also CCIA , the

4:20

California Cannabis

4:22

Industry Association , and

4:27

so it's always interesting to

4:29

start to understand a little bit more about

4:31

how the sausage is made . It's

4:35

a little mind-numbing at times .

4:37

Interesting is a nice word , sometimes

4:39

that can press .

4:40

Yeah , I'm trying to watch myself so I don't get myself in

4:42

trouble with anyone .

4:58

But it's interesting . It's very interesting common

5:00

and it's part of our cannabis journey . But

5:02

we all end up as advocates somehow , and

5:05

a big part of that , often , if

5:07

you start as an entrepreneur , is protecting your

5:09

business and trying to make sure that there's pathways

5:11

for success along the along the way

5:13

. And certainly when

5:16

it comes to policymaking in

5:18

California and you're face to face with this

5:20

right now with this hemp bill is

5:22

that not aligned incentives

5:25

with all of the parties and the

5:27

elected officials might see the

5:29

people in cannabis as all

5:32

one collective group , but

5:34

you and I know that that that

5:37

people in cannabis that the electeds

5:39

are seeing is actually many different

5:41

, disparate groups that

5:43

are . Some are in

5:45

hemp , some are in regulated cannabis , some

5:48

are manufacturers , some are beverage

5:51

makers . Like , everybody sees the world

5:53

in a different way and everyone's trying

5:55

to just make it and is on

5:57

the brink of something great but is

5:59

most likely struggling , and so they're trying to protect

6:02

their little piece of the pie , which totally

6:04

makes sense but makes it really

6:06

hard to get anything done .

6:08

Yeah , I think the universal

6:10

truth that is starting to emerge and

6:13

I read one of Brad Bogus'

6:15

posts today is that

6:17

the whole system is broken

6:19

Like . This is not the legalization

6:22

that we signed up for , and

6:24

so you know , protecting

6:27

what has been built is

6:29

a tough case , and I think that's becoming very apparent

6:32

to even the operators on the

6:34

cannabis side .

6:35

So protecting what has been built because it doesn't

6:38

work . And so further

6:40

investing in it is that

6:43

is . Is that intelligent or not ?

6:45

Yeah Right , it's like let's push all of hemp

6:47

into the broken cannabis

6:50

system because we want all

6:52

the businesses to fail . Anyways

6:56

, that's what , not what this episode is about

6:58

.

6:59

Yeah , but you know , I think it is

7:01

a good segue . You know , I will

7:03

say , ben , you and I both

7:05

come from California and , as a result

7:08

, we sometimes have a California centric

7:10

view , and today I'm really excited

7:12

to talk about things that are

7:14

happening outside of California and , in

7:16

particular , to dive into Michigan , because

7:19

Michigan is the second largest

7:21

cannabis state market in the country

7:23

. Michigan is the second largest cannabis state market in the country . I pulled up some

7:25

data before this episode and Michigan

7:27

did $3 billion of sales

7:30

in 2023 . I mean , there's

7:32

a massive , massive

7:34

cannabis industry going on in the state and

7:36

so really excited to

7:39

bring on your friend , chris

7:41

. Do you want to cue him up

7:43

and introduce him ?

7:44

No , I mean , that's your job . I'm not going to

7:46

impede on that . Okay , I'll do it .

7:48

I just met Chris today . I

7:50

met him right as we were prepping before and

7:58

you guys , he's awesome . He's got a great radio voice . But I want to bring on Chris Jackson . He

8:00

has a lot of titles . He's the Executive Director of the Michigan Legislative

8:02

Black Caucus . He is the chair of

8:04

the National Cannabis Industry Association

8:07

. He is also the owner and president

8:09

of the Lansing Pharaohs , a professional basketball

8:11

team out of Michigan , and

8:14

he also has earned

8:16

his stripes as an experienced cannabis entrepreneur

8:18

, although not a current operator

8:21

. So , chris , really excited

8:23

to have you join the conversation today . Thanks

8:26

for coming , welcome .

8:28

Hello , hello , hello . And

8:31

NRA , I'm not just Ben's friend

8:33

, I'm your friend too , okay , so

8:35

diplomatic of you . And

8:40

we'll talk about why . But actually

8:43

the Pharaohs are now located in

8:45

Pontiac Michigan . Oh cool , so

8:49

we moved from Lansing Michigan to Pontiac

8:51

Michigan , but we could talk about that .

8:52

Amazing . Well , there

8:54

is so much to talk about with you

8:57

today , but

8:59

since you sit in Michigan and

9:01

this is a show predominantly about cannabis

9:03

, I think that we should

9:06

start there . I'd love

9:08

to hear your perspective . People see , the

9:10

big number of Michigan is

9:12

this big number ? We've

9:14

heard some other things , too about that . There's also

9:16

an oversupply of cannabis

9:18

in Michigan that there's been declining

9:20

prices . What is happening in

9:22

Michigan ? That , with an oversupply

9:24

and declining prices

9:27

, that the state is still putting $3

9:29

billion on the board .

9:30

Yeah , it's interesting , right , I think

9:33

. First of all , thank

9:35

you all for having me on today to have a chat and

9:37

conversation . What's

9:40

interesting about Michigan and

9:42

the purest in me wants to believe

9:44

that that

9:47

everyone believes in the free market equally

9:49

. I'm not saying that Michigan did a

9:51

great job of equity to

9:54

begin with and thinking about folks that may

9:56

or may not have the funding

9:58

to get into the industry and be as successful

10:00

as others . I think we're seeing that everywhere . But

10:03

what Michigan did do and

10:06

I actually give the state , the

10:08

regulatory agency , credit for is

10:11

saying we're going to just have a

10:13

free market state and

10:16

very similar to California in

10:18

that they're going to allow for municipalities

10:21

to opt in or out , and

10:24

then we're going to make businesses

10:26

actually do good

10:28

business , right and

10:30

like they would do for any other

10:32

industry . It's always funny

10:35

to me that people are free market until

10:37

free market works against their business . Now , all

10:39

of a sudden , they aren't free

10:41

market anymore and we saw

10:43

a little bit of that in terms

10:46

of you know to your point , the thought

10:48

of there being an oversupply

10:50

of cannabis in the market

10:53

product . Cannabis products in the market

10:55

enough and

10:57

they're

11:01

becoming more sophisticated regular consumers

11:03

on a daily basis as

11:05

they move into a

11:08

space in where they appreciate options

11:10

. They appreciate safe options

11:13

, right . But there has to be

11:15

an educational period that has to

11:17

exist . There has to be a

11:20

generation that phases out and

11:22

a new generation that phases in , that

11:24

doesn't know anything different than legal

11:26

cannabis in Michigan , and

11:28

we're slowly but surely getting to that point

11:30

. The question for some businesses is

11:33

are you able to just stay alive

11:35

long enough right to

11:37

see the fruits of your labor ? And I think rescheduling

11:40

certainly will help some

11:42

of those businesses that aren't necessarily

11:44

vertically integrated . It's actually

11:46

a really interesting dichotomy here

11:48

in Michigan because on

11:50

the one end , if you have one

11:53

or two retail locations , or

11:56

if you have 15

11:59

plus locations , you're

12:02

actually doing OK . For the most part

12:04

, in terms of what I've seen , it's

12:07

that if you're in the middle there , particularly

12:11

if you aren't vertically integrated here in Michigan

12:13

because of the free market approach , then

12:16

those are the folks that we're seeing struggling

12:18

and or have over leveraged and

12:22

the money isn't in the market anymore because

12:24

folks want to go to other states . There

12:26

was a company recently C3 Industries actually

12:28

has headed to its fifth market and

12:30

fifth market , fifth state

12:33

. So it's a multi-state

12:35

operator that started here in Michigan and

12:37

they just got another 16 to $20

12:39

million in investment , right ? So it's

12:41

not that the money doesn't

12:44

exist , it's are you positioned properly to be able to take advantage

12:46

of it's ? Not that the money doesn't exist , it's are you positioned properly to be able to take advantage of

12:48

it . That's the interesting part , I happen

12:50

to believe , and then I'll get to your

12:52

questions . I'm sorry , I'm rambling a little bit . I

12:55

happen to believe that

12:57

there's going to be a place throughout

12:59

the country , but particularly in states

13:02

like ours . The country , but particularly in

13:04

states like ours . That kind of you know , michigan is

13:06

known for its breweries , right

13:08

. I think Grand Rapids , michigan , was touted

13:10

Beer City USA at one point , right , but

13:13

the craft experience is going to be an

13:15

experience that I think , long-term

13:17

, is going to allow for your smaller

13:19

mom and pop shop restaurants

13:21

whatever to have

13:23

success long-term , whereas

13:27

you have a couple of fast food brand restaurants that are just going to be everywhere

13:29

, right ? So do you want a fast food

13:32

? You want something quick ? You already know what you're getting

13:34

, uh , or do you want an experience

13:36

? And I think the industry is going

13:38

to get there ? It's just a matter of

13:40

, um , things

13:42

like rescheduling and safe banking

13:44

happening at some point .

13:46

Chris , you were mentioning about kind

13:48

of the opportunity

13:51

for different municipalities to

13:54

kind of opt in to the legal market and

13:56

we've talked about this a lot in California how

13:58

we don't actually have that much coverage as

14:00

far as legal retail goes . How

14:03

is the landscape looking in Michigan as far

14:05

as coverage ?

14:07

Yeah , so well . The fact that there's

14:09

an oversupply means that there needs to be more retail

14:12

right , or

14:14

you would think , right , so it's

14:17

growing right . I think a lot

14:19

of cities or municipalities in Michigan

14:22

wanted to see how the others did it first

14:24

before they decided to

14:26

get involved . I think elected

14:30

officials are becoming smarter in that

14:32

we'll approach cannabis . It's here

14:34

to stay . I think there's money to be made based

14:36

on the taxes that have been distributed to

14:38

all of the municipalities and the counties per

14:40

the sales in cannabis . The question is counties per the sales in cannabis

14:43

. The question is how do

14:45

we do it ? How many do we allow ? Is

14:53

it a merit-based system versus a random system ? We don't want to get sued . How long

14:55

can we take on lawsuits for ? So elected officials are becoming smarter . Based on

14:57

examples that other municipalities have

14:59

set , as of

15:01

right now , I think there's probably room

15:04

. Based on the numbers that I've seen , there's

15:06

probably room for more

15:08

retail outlets . I imagine the

15:10

folks that are going to be new

15:13

owners retail outlet

15:15

owners in Michigan are going to either be the folks

15:17

that are social

15:20

equity applicants right opening

15:22

for the first time , or your

15:24

large conglomerates that want

15:26

to increase their footprint in

15:28

Michigan because that's the only way . It makes sense

15:30

In Michigan , if you're a large conglomerate

15:33

, is to have as many storefronts , right

15:35

?

15:35

So you've been touching

15:38

a bunch on stores in Michigan and

15:40

I know that companies

15:42

are allowed to be vertically integrated in Michigan

15:44

if they choose , but they also don't

15:47

have to be , which

15:49

is very similar to the way California is

15:51

. It's kind of a choose your own adventure in

15:53

terms of what part of the supply chain

15:55

you want to operate in , whereas you know

15:57

New York has taken an approach where vertical integration

15:59

isn't allowed . Florida requires

16:02

vertical integration . You know everybody has

16:04

has chosen a different path is

16:07

, um , is there kind

16:10

of a requirement in Michigan

16:12

that's unspoken , to be vertically integrated

16:14

if you want to be successful , or is

16:16

there a good free market environment

16:19

for brands to get into retail

16:22

even if they don't own their own stores ?

16:24

Yep , that's right . I think people are becoming

16:26

creative , as probably everywhere in

16:29

cannabis , people

16:31

are becoming more creative If you want long-term success , at

16:34

least in this market , and being vertically

16:36

integrated is highly recommended , right

16:38

. But that means that you have to have a lot of money

16:40

in order to be able to do that , at least initially

16:43

. Have

16:45

a lot of money in order to be able to do that , at least initially . Some businesses

16:47

, like my old I was with Sticky Cannabis at one

16:49

point we were operators

16:52

together and then I transitioned out

16:54

, but just

16:56

retail . But there

16:59

are producers

17:02

, manufacturers , cultivators that

17:05

exist that think that

17:07

it would be advantageous to do

17:09

a , a joint venture or

17:12

a partnership or a licensing

17:15

partnership that would make

17:17

it to where maybe some

17:19

items can get moved around and or

17:21

, because you know the

17:23

retail establishment has promised

17:26

X amount of shelf space , it

17:28

can be priced at a point where it still makes

17:30

sense for the consumers and I'll talk about that in a second

17:32

where everybody

17:35

can still be profitable . So we're

17:37

seeing people get more creative in that way

17:39

. You mentioned price compression a little bit earlier

17:42

. I happen to believe

17:45

that the Michigan market is

17:47

exactly what

17:49

consumers . It's a consumer's market

17:51

. It's what consumers want . Right

17:54

To be clear , consumers

17:56

don't want to have to pay a lot of money , and

17:58

that's why you see $3

18:01

billion worth of revenue . And

18:03

it also has a little bit to do with the fact that

18:05

, you know , ohio is still figuring their

18:08

stuff out , indiana depending

18:12

on who the next governor is , but they aren't even close

18:14

right , and so we get a lot

18:16

of flooding in to

18:19

the state of Michigan , a , because it's priced at

18:22

the right price point and or

18:24

B , other states around this just don't have

18:26

access or it's far too expensive , like Illinois

18:28

, right . So we'll call Illinois

18:30

an oligarchy state , respectfully

18:33

, but it's very

18:37

much a limited market

18:39

in terms of Can we all just laugh for a minute that you just called Illinois

18:41

an oligarchy ?

18:41

It's kind of funny . Maybe I'll just laugh for a minute that you just called Illinois an oligarchy .

18:44

It's kind of funny , but

18:47

it's true . I mean , that's exactly what the

18:49

market is . I

18:52

mean Florida , very similar to that , right . So I actually

18:55

like the fact that the free market is

18:57

working and that the consumers

18:59

are are actually participating

19:02

, right Like the consumers want to

19:04

participate in this market . The goal

19:06

overall shouldn't just be we

19:09

want businesses to be successful , I think

19:11

, obviously . But I

19:13

feel like the goal of a market should also be

19:16

to graduate folks

19:18

from how they traditionally got

19:22

their cannabis to moving

19:24

into a legal market , and

19:26

the price structure right now in Michigan allows

19:29

for folks to actually experience the legal

19:31

market and get adapted to it , and I think

19:33

, long term , that's what's going to be best . Unfortunately

19:36

, there's going to be some businesses that just don't survive

19:38

, but that's the case in every industry .

19:42

Selfishly . I have a beverage question for

19:44

you , because you did mention that you know it was

19:46

a beer drinking community . From

19:49

your perspective , how is

19:52

the beverage category doing

19:54

in Michigan ?

19:55

It's growing quickly . I

19:59

think at first

20:01

it was a situation in which there

20:05

weren't any beverages allowed , and then

20:07

people start to figure out what the

20:09

rules that you can

20:11

allow for beverages , and now

20:13

you're starting to see hemp

20:15

, cbd beverages pop

20:17

up quite a bit . Michigan

20:20

hasn't gotten to the point yet where

20:22

maybe some but , but

20:25

it's pretty tricky but Michigan

20:27

really hasn't gotten to the point yet where it's

20:29

a market that allows for THC

20:32

beverages as much

20:34

as hemp or CBD derived beverages

20:36

. But as the regulatory agency

20:39

sees that beverages continue to increase

20:41

in terms of sales , they're figuring

20:43

out regulations around it and it's going to

20:45

be here sooner than we know , and

20:47

there's a number of brew

20:50

companies that have already started cooking up

20:52

their own recipes to

20:55

have THC infused spots

20:58

. I will say that , as

21:01

of now , if you're talking about THC

21:03

infused drinks , it can only probably

21:05

be purchased in retail outlets

21:07

Absolutely yeah , licensed

21:11

retail outlets , I should say .

21:13

Are they pretty prominent in the marketplace

21:15

, in the licensed marketplace ?

21:17

With THC-infused beverages ?

21:19

Yeah , yeah , not yet , not yet .

21:21

Not yet . A lot of room for growth . A lot

21:23

of room for growth . We aren't like I

21:27

don't know which way that is , but Minnesota right

21:30

when Minnesota

21:33

has a very prominent beverage

21:35

market . That's not the case in

21:37

Michigan yet , but I see it getting

21:39

there . Yeah

21:43

, I think it's kind of like this for you Northwest

21:45

maybe for you .

21:47

So I want to segue a little bit to talking

21:49

about the way

21:51

that you are enmeshed and have a really

21:54

, I think , interesting perspective on policy change

21:56

and the work that you're doing both with NCIA

21:59

and with Michigan . You

22:01

shared with us when we talked that

22:04

you've run for office twice , unfortunately

22:07

never got elected , but it's super

22:09

badass either way . Just to step up

22:12

and put anyone that chooses

22:14

to go through that I admire

22:20

. Seems like it really parlayed into

22:22

you being involved in legislative

22:25

policy anyway . And now

22:27

you are the executive director

22:29

of the Michigan Legislative Black Caucus

22:31

, which is a group of Black

22:34

elected officials and you're the executive

22:36

director that's organizing them . And then you're

22:38

also the chair at NCAA . And

22:41

so I can hear , when you're talking about the

22:43

industry , how you understand the

22:45

way that navigating policy

22:47

relates to strategy , and

22:49

I'd like

22:51

to just hear your perspective

22:54

on , first on like Michigan

22:56

policy and maybe what's changing in Michigan

22:58

, that there wasn't a program initially and that now they're

23:01

trying to

23:06

fix some of that . Like , tell us about that

23:08

.

23:08

And , you know , feel free to move into

23:10

national policy as well , but yeah

23:14

, yeah , no worries , no worries , yeah

23:17

, so I've always been , obviously I've

23:19

always been legislative adjacent

23:22

is what I say , right . So to your point . Legislative adjacent is what I say , right

23:24

, so to your point . Ran for city

23:26

council in my hometown , lost

23:35

by 40 votes . It was tragic , like super close . And then ran for state rep right

23:37

after that and came in a close third actually . And so

23:39

at that point I just kind of told myself

23:41

, listen , I mean it . Clearly

23:43

, folks aren't into my politics at this moment

23:45

in time , right , and I'm not meant

23:47

to do that . But I had a buddy

23:50

who became my partner with Sticky

23:52

that basically came to me and just said hey , we

23:54

were looking for expansion , we're

23:57

looking for legislative

23:59

affairs , community engagement , all

24:02

of those things , obviously , you do very well

24:04

and you just so happen to not

24:06

win the election . Can you bring those talents and skills

24:08

to the company ? And at the time there was

24:10

one medical

24:13

facility in Ypsilanti

24:15

, michigan , sticky Ypsi , and

24:19

eventually that became Sticky Detroit

24:21

and Sticky Muskegon , sticky Battle Creek

24:23

, sticky River Rouge . So

24:26

so there was a lot of growth . That

24:28

happened shortly after

24:30

I joined the team and we built a really cool

24:32

brand together , and

24:53

it still is a cool brand . But during that process , if you

24:55

will , I also joined the NCIA board , right , and so now there's kind of a national

24:57

perspective that can be honed in in Michigan based on all

24:59

the things that I was seeing . And

25:02

, you know , thanks to folks like Ben and others , the Chris Cranes of the

25:04

world and folks that really believed in what I brought to the table , believed

25:06

in what I brought to the table you know

25:08

, now I'm the NCIA chair there

25:14

was a speaking about Michigan . Specifically , there was a

25:16

racial task force work group that then MRA

25:18

director Andrew Brisbo put together

25:20

. Because basically he said look , no

25:24

doubt we haven't done what

25:26

we should be doing when it comes to social equity

25:28

, right

25:41

, what , what we thought equity should individuals

25:44

from all over the state stakeholders

25:46

and said give me some recommendations

25:48

on how to improve equity

25:50

. And all

25:53

the credit in the world to him . Because

25:55

I think what

25:57

some states try to do is they try

25:59

to rightfully so

26:01

they take examples from other states , but

26:04

I feel like they don't get stakeholders

26:07

from that state involved enough

26:09

and from other states , for that matter , right

26:11

, Involved enough

26:13

to actually progress a

26:17

productive equity program , right

26:19

. So actually give Maryland credit for how

26:21

they went about doing theirs , maryland credit for how they went about

26:23

doing theirs . Anyway , long story short , though , that

26:27

Racial Task Force work group came up with some recommendations

26:30

, which have been implemented , and

26:38

then transitioned over to a diversity , equity and inclusion continuous work

26:40

group where , once a month , you serve on this work group for so many months , or whatever

26:42

the case is , and everything that

26:44

the agency decides to do they

26:46

run it by this group . Just to say , are we

26:48

taking the equitable lens into consideration

26:51

? Right , which , again , I

26:53

give them credit for that . Just recently

26:55

, because without

26:58

money , equity program

27:00

just won't work . Right

27:02

, and so just recently , albeit

27:04

it wasn't nearly as much as the set

27:06

aside that Maryland or Connecticut had done

27:08

Michigan to

27:12

their credit , the legislators appropriated

27:14

a million or two to

27:18

the CRA , which was then

27:20

distributed equally amongst

27:23

the equity licensees

27:25

that were operating . Right

27:27

, it's a baby step , but it's a step in

27:29

the right direction . Ultimately , when

27:32

it comes to a national

27:35

perspective , if

27:38

we're still talking about equity in the market

27:40

, um

27:49

, I think that maryland , uh , because that's the latest and greatest state to move in this direction

27:51

for recreation .

27:51

Can you give us like a 30 second overview of what maryland has

27:53

done that ?

27:54

yeah , yeah , no problem , I'm sorry . Yeah , I'm assuming that

27:56

folks know and I shouldn't . Um , so

27:59

what maryland did basically , was say that

28:01

we are going to

28:03

allow for adult use , but we're going

28:05

to do a lottery that's going to be a

28:07

set aside for folks

28:10

that qualify for their equity program and

28:14

then , after that qualification , the time

28:16

starts in which you know you have access to

28:18

a conditional license , and that needs to translate

28:20

to you actually operating . Now

28:24

I will say this too they were smart in

28:26

that the folks that were already

28:28

operating became

28:31

adult use operators , right . So we

28:33

aren't trying to stop anybody else's

28:35

business from happening , but we do need to make sure

28:37

that we set

28:39

up wraparound services , technical

28:42

assistance I was a

28:44

co-producer on some content

28:46

for folks that may be interested

28:49

in going into the market in various

28:51

areas and various license , right

28:53

. So they put that out first , and

28:55

then they said we're going to create , set aside X amount

28:58

of dollars for technical assistance . We're going to have a bucket of I think

29:00

it was 50 million . That may have changed now . We're going to have a bucket

29:02

of I think it was 50 million

29:04

that may have changed now but a

29:06

substantial amount of money , right . That

29:09

says that this is particularly for

29:11

equity programming

29:13

and

29:23

you know at least recently

29:26

the conversation was what we fill

29:28

in the blank and

29:31

you do it in a way in which we

29:33

approve of it , then you can have

29:35

access to these grant funds

29:37

Right Money or or

29:39

low to no interest loans

29:41

Right that you can have access

29:43

to in order to get your business started . So

29:47

that's what Maryland has

29:49

done is doing . I know it's still evolving

29:51

as we speak . I

29:54

give Connecticut credit for doing something

29:57

similar in partnership with

29:59

Oaksterdam , where they said if

30:01

you are a licensee and you go through

30:03

this program and you can have access to lower

30:05

, no interest loans for your project

30:08

, part

30:10

of this is you

30:12

get some people who hit a lottery in

30:14

a lot of ways because you're in a lottery

30:17

but you win the lottery

30:19

. But it doesn't necessarily mean that you have

30:21

a certain level of business

30:24

expertise , particularly in the cannabis

30:26

industry . The goal is to see you be

30:28

successful , not for you to operate

30:31

, even though the opportunity is just as important

30:33

as anything else

30:35

. So there's this balance between we're

30:38

going to give you an opportunity whether you are successful

30:40

or not , but also we really

30:43

want to see you be successful , because

30:45

otherwise how do we justify funds

30:47

being appropriated in the future as

30:50

a legislature or a governor right

30:52

, and then just trying to find that balance

30:54

between and I don't think

30:56

that any market

30:59

has done it successfully , I

31:02

guess it just depends on what you call successful , I guess

31:04

it just depends on what you call successful .

31:12

One of the keys to some of these other markets that are not

31:14

California is that I've seen these programs allow for non-location based

31:16

licenses to be awarded and then

31:18

they can go out and find the place . And I think that's

31:20

such an important component of this because

31:22

I've seen so many businesses

31:25

die before they launch because

31:27

they run out of funds in the permitting

31:30

phase . It's like to have

31:32

to have to lock in a location just

31:34

to apply for a license because

31:36

, like I just got done with a two

31:39

and a half year project in berkeley

31:41

that it

31:43

would the project we were working on was

31:45

unlicensed for essentially two and a half years

31:47

and to pay rent on that as an

31:50

operator that doesn't have a ton of funds

31:52

or you're taking out these zero interest loans , you

31:56

know like what happens when you have to

31:58

start those repayments

32:00

. That's crazy .

32:02

Well , even more . I'm interested in your

32:04

perspective because I think that , while

32:07

maybe there are some of the newer

32:09

equity programs that might be getting it more

32:11

right , are

32:14

social equity programs

32:17

the answer to really repairing

32:19

the harms that were done by the war on drugs

32:21

when they're serving such small

32:23

groups of people ? So maybe you have

32:26

100 or 200 people in a state that

32:28

hit that social equity lottery or qualify

32:30

for the program . When there's so many more thousands

32:32

of people , is that the right way

32:35

to focus our energy ? Or should

32:37

we be looking at broader community programs

32:39

instead of driving people into this industry

32:41

that's been so challenging for so many and

32:44

and calling it a lottery as if that

32:46

means that you're going to somehow win big on the other

32:48

side , and it's still so uncertain ?

32:50

Yeah , yeah , yeah , I'm with you . I'm with you . So

32:52

the the answer to that question is

32:54

no , it's just it's not

32:56

enough to just provide

32:58

opportunity to be entrepreneurs

33:00

in the market now , because not everybody wants to be

33:02

an entrepreneur , right ? Um ? So

33:05

, to that end , I think that that is

33:07

a part of it . But also in in

33:09

shouts out to maryland and michigan , too

33:12

. There's maryland specifically

33:14

, though in this case , since we were talking about it , there's a reinvestment

33:16

act , or part right , for

33:19

communities that have been

33:21

identified as

33:23

negatively and disproportionately impacted

33:25

right . So you're

33:28

right in that there has to

33:30

not only be a line item

33:33

for opportunity as an entrepreneur

33:35

. There needs to be a line item

33:37

for reinvestment into community . There also needs to be a line item

33:39

for reinvestment into community . There also needs to

33:41

be a line item for recidivism and

33:44

workforce development and

33:46

an opportunity outside

33:49

of being a direct license holder

33:52

, right , so I think you're

33:54

right . As we , as states , become

33:57

more sophisticated , I think they're realizing it's

34:00

just not enough because in Michigan , albeit

34:02

, they are promoting opportunities

34:05

to do more in communities and you

34:07

know you could be a gold star

34:10

level , silver star level , silver

34:12

, bronze star level right , so they're promoting

34:14

wanting businesses to be good

34:16

community partners , as businesses

34:19

should , by the way but

34:21

I think in a lot of ways , other states

34:23

are looking at it and saying no , we need to make it necessary

34:26

, and we'll do that by taking away from

34:28

taxes that we collect in

34:30

order to give back to some of these municipalities

34:33

and counties .

34:34

I can only imagine that your

34:36

role with the

34:39

Legislative Black Caucus has given you kind of

34:41

a broader lens of how to think about

34:43

this and you've seen some of the successes in

34:46

the broader landscape . Can

34:48

you kind of enlighten us with

34:50

you know a few of the mechanisms

34:52

that you've witnessed in that kind of

34:54

broader landscape and how it might improve

34:57

the way we approach these equity programs in the cannabis

35:00

space ?

35:01

Yeah , and not take it a step further too ? Even

35:03

right , like , not just the equity

35:06

programs in the cannabis space , but just cannabis

35:09

businesses period . Right , because

35:11

you know people quickly

35:13

forget that during

35:15

COVID , at least here in Michigan

35:17

, cannabis kept the

35:20

economy afloat here , right

35:23

? So I think there has to be

35:25

a level of appreciation

35:28

from states at some point to say

35:30

, all right , we understand that we can't

35:32

cross with federal funding , but what can

35:34

we do to create grants , which

35:37

you already do for small businesses

35:39

period or subsections of small

35:41

businesses ? So the MEDC

35:43

in Michigan would be the example of that but

35:46

cannabis companies don't have access to that funding

35:49

. So you have a legal

35:51

market in theory , I

35:53

guess , without access

35:56

to all of the resources and technical

35:58

assistance that other industries have

36:01

access to . And so

36:03

there's an ongoing discussion

36:05

, particularly now where

36:07

I'm at in my level the fact that I'm in Lansing

36:10

more often than not with

36:12

folks that are directors of these programs

36:14

to say , okay , so

36:16

we're talking about equity , let's go

36:19

beyond , like social equity within cannabis

36:21

, and let's just say , like , make it equitable

36:23

for all industries , then Right , if you're going

36:25

to allow for this , then why can't you allow for that ? And

36:28

and so a lot of my

36:30

job now is is the ability

36:32

to have direct access to folks

36:35

that can make those decisions . So

36:37

now I have like , in some ways , there's a person

36:39

on the inside for

36:42

the cannabis industry , um , that's

36:44

having conversations , um with

36:46

the director at the MEDC , director

36:48

of Leo , et cetera , et cetera . Um

36:51

, that that basically

36:53

said , here's the industry , make

36:55

it work , right . But now

36:58

is realizing that there are certain

37:00

things that other industries got access to

37:02

that make them long-term industries

37:04

in a state . And if you want cannabis to be

37:07

the same , especially

37:09

coming off of covid , right , and

37:11

the fact that cannabis companies actually

37:13

help the economy , um , then let's get

37:15

creative about where we need to go strategically

37:18

to make it happen .

37:18

And so next week with NCIA

37:20

, it's Lobby Days , I understand

37:22

.

37:23

Lobby Days . Yeah , christmas Biggest week

37:25

of the year for us , that's right , really excited

37:27

, yeah .

37:29

So why don't you just tell our listeners what

37:31

that's all about and

37:34

anything they should know about it ?

37:36

Yeah , I'll say this much . I

37:43

think that the NCIA's biggest strength National Cannabis Industry Association

37:45

its biggest strength is our ability to galvanize

37:48

people . So the largest and the

37:50

oldest trade association

37:52

, right . What that means

37:54

is that we are driven

37:56

by the people and

37:59

all of our members , which is why

38:02

we express ourselves as Main Street

38:04

right Cannabis , and that there's a big

38:06

tent that we have

38:08

that folks fall under . And

38:11

the goal is there

38:13

are two things I think we all know that move

38:16

Congress . And it's money right

38:18

, which there isn't a ton of , by the

38:20

way , in this industry , with the exception

38:23

of a select few , which still isn't enough

38:25

compared to big pharma or alcohol . That's an entirely

38:27

different conversation , right

38:29

, and the amount

38:32

of people that are willing to speak up on behalf of

38:34

the industry . And so , ncia

38:37

, once a year , next week for us

38:39

, we go to DC , coordinate

38:42

meetings with , with

38:44

our lawmakers , congress

38:46

and senators , representatives

38:49

and senators , just to say , look , this is , this

38:52

is what's happening in the industry . We're

38:55

on the ground , we're probably

38:57

in your district , and so , whereas

39:00

folks may get a

39:02

local representative's staffer

39:05

in their office , you

39:09

know , in , let's just say , pontiac , Michigan , like where I'm from

39:11

or you might get a

39:14

person that works in the staff in

39:16

your office in DC . This is really

39:18

an opportunity to rub elbows

39:21

and have direct conversations with

39:23

our elected officials , just

39:25

to say listen , this is in a coordinated

39:28

way , where we see the industry going

39:30

. We understand what you're excited about and what you're

39:32

not excited about , but this is what you need

39:34

to know based on the folks that are operating

39:37

or are activists in

39:39

the community in which you represent . And

39:42

so we have , you know , generally

39:45

speaking , usually about 100 people , but might

39:47

probably closer to 150 folks this year

39:49

, that are all descending on

39:52

DC from around the country and

39:55

really just making the pitch to Congress to say

39:57

you know , in 10 years

39:59

, a lot has happened and accelerated

40:02

, but that doesn't happen without

40:04

us 10 years or 11

40:06

years ago starting to go to DC and having

40:08

these conversations , to be where we are now

40:10

. Now , how do we accelerate growth in

40:12

a way that makes sense , moving forward

40:14

, and that's what we're looking forward

40:16

to in DC next week .

40:18

Building community is great , but

40:20

when are the feds going to start listening

40:22

? Is that a question ?

40:24

or was that rhetorical ?

40:29

I mean just to piggyback on what

40:31

Chris was talking about , like lobby

40:33

days is when I really realized that

40:36

every conversation matters and

40:39

that's not rhetorical like it's . I

40:43

would walk into rooms and you

40:45

realize like every congressperson

40:47

has a completely different perspective

40:50

and knowledge set . And you

40:52

know , walk into a

40:54

, a florida senator's office actually

40:57

the senator sitting there , not a staffer and

41:00

he's like you know , you , you get

41:02

into your , your monologue talking about

41:04

cannabinoids and and thc

41:07

and and cbd , and

41:09

they're like why the alphabet soup ? Why

41:12

? Like it's like wait

41:14

, well , you don't even know what tc and cbd are

41:16

and um , and then

41:18

back up . He's like , it's like , all right , what's

41:21

your knowledge ? Like in in

41:23

the questions that we would give , like , oh , can you please

41:25

at least tell us the difference between hemp and

41:27

cannabis ? It's like , oh

41:29

shit , that's where we're starting

41:32

it . Okay , and and that's not the

41:34

case with all of them some of them are very well educated

41:36

on it and so , um , it's

41:38

important to at least understand where

41:41

all those conversations are at and if , if you can just educate

41:43

them just a little bit , they have a better baseline . And

41:46

then and sorry to steal

41:48

a bunch of time here , but like there's

41:50

two other things that I I learned on

41:52

on our last lobby days , and one

41:54

was that the

41:57

staffers , the ones that you

41:59

talk to , they're moving from office to office

42:01

. They have the ear of these congressfolk , but

42:04

they turn over like every 18 months

42:06

, and so it's like the opportunity

42:09

to go there and like talk to a new person every

42:11

time and educate a new person every time , someone that

42:13

might influence policy . Every

42:15

conversation does

42:18

matter , and it's

42:21

an insane process , but it's an incredibly

42:24

important work .

42:27

Well , you guys told me , even even

42:29

if I'm a little fed up with the pace of progress

42:31

in DC well

42:35

, we're getting close to the end of the hour

42:37

and I think there's something so unique

42:39

, Chris , that you have in

42:41

your professional portfolio that we just

42:43

can't not talk about , which is that you

42:46

own a professional basketball

42:48

team , and I

42:50

would just love to hear more about that , even if it's

42:52

just for a couple of minutes , and I think our listeners would

42:55

too .

42:55

Yeah , that's cool . Appreciate you

42:57

for asking the Pontiac Pharaohs

42:59

. We're a part of the TBL

43:01

, which is the basketball league . The

43:04

36 teams around the country Right

43:07

Been around for about seven years . The league , our

43:09

team , has been around for two seasons

43:11

now . We were in Lansing , michigan

43:13

, and as soon as I got the opportunity to bring

43:15

the team back

43:17

to my hometown , pontiac , which

43:20

we love , our Detroit Pistons they

43:22

aren't doing so great , right , but

43:24

it also costs a lot to be able to go watch the

43:27

Detroit Pistons play . So , to build community

43:29

around a team

43:31

where you have access

43:33

, the community has access to players . We go to

43:36

schools , we partner with school

43:38

districts and there's a workforce

43:40

development component , economic development component

43:43

, just a quality life component , and so I've

43:46

always wanted to own a team . It really happened when

43:48

, when I was with Sticky

43:50

and we approached the league about sponsoring

43:53

the entire league , they weren't that progressive

43:55

Plenty of heroes that they are

43:57

, so they weren't that progressive Plenty of pharaohs that they

43:59

are , so they weren't that progressive . However

44:02

, what ended up happening is they said but we do

44:04

have a market in Michigan , are you interested in

44:06

being a part of it ? And

44:08

my answer was absolutely , let's do something

44:10

special . Moreover

44:12

, I think what I have , or

44:15

had an opportunity to do with this league too

44:17

, is really talk about

44:19

influence of cannabis related

44:21

to athletics and sports . Um

44:25

, so , going into a league as a cannabis

44:27

advocate , in a league that wasn't

44:29

as progressive at the time , where

44:31

contracts stated that , you know , individuals

44:34

can't consume cannabis right

44:36

, just based on the limited amount

44:39

of knowledge that they had , we've been

44:41

able to shift league-wide

44:44

contracts in some ways , just to say , as

44:46

long as you're not a detriment to the team , because

44:49

cannabis obviously impacts . We know

44:51

everybody differently , and

44:53

even athletes . You

44:55

know Megatron . Calvin Johnson

44:58

right , who played for the Detroit Lions

45:00

Hall of Famer , was

45:02

talking with him on another podcast

45:05

and he basically said listen , like

45:07

everybody does it In

45:09

a lot of ways , like most people do it . I should say that , If

45:14

you hear about it , though , it's because

45:16

it's the third time that this person has probably

45:19

gotten in trouble . It though it's

45:21

because it's the third time

45:23

that this person has probably gotten in trouble , right

45:29

, and so so there are major leagues . As pharma and as alcohol shifts , major

45:31

leagues are also starting to shift , in that Calvin Johnson's

45:33

company , primitive , is

45:35

now the official CBD

45:37

of the Detroit Tigers

45:40

, and so we're starting to see

45:42

it before our eyes , but what ends up happening is

45:44

you take minor level leagues

45:47

right Like

45:50

double A triple A leagues . You try different things and if it works , then it gets elevated right

45:52

, and that's what we're starting to see when it comes

45:55

to the cannabis industry

45:57

, cbd industry , maybe even hemp

46:00

in general , and I'm just happy

46:02

to be able to be a part of

46:04

influencing that . When it comes to our

46:07

league and all

46:09

of the cool things that we get to do . As far

46:11

as , just like you know , we don't have NBA money

46:13

, marketing dollars and or we don't

46:15

have . We don't pay the same amount of

46:18

money , but we are very much a

46:20

developmental league for everybody that's involved

46:22

in it and I've enjoyed it so

46:24

far . So I appreciate you for asking . Sorry , I got a little

46:26

long winded , but yeah .

46:28

I mean , what a flex . You said , hey , I want to

46:30

advertise with you . They said , no , we won't take

46:32

your cannabis money , but you could own us

46:34

instead or own a team . Own

46:38

a team . I love that

46:40

. You know we we had a Joyce Sonali

46:42

on a couple of weeks ago and she was the founder

46:44

of the Cannabis Media Council and talked

46:46

a little bit about just the the

46:48

restrictions around cannabis

46:51

sponsorship and media and and

46:53

paid ads , and so I think you're just bringing

46:55

it to light in a new way but also but

46:58

also taking it apart brick by brick by

47:01

, by being a cannabis advocate

47:03

and and putting yourself in a public place

47:05

. So really cool to see what happens next

47:07

from all of that . And yeah

47:10

, I want some gear . I

47:12

love the logo .

47:14

I'll get you some shirts , plenty of basketball

47:16

shirts .

47:17

Chris , like you know what's on the

47:19

horizon for you this year . What are you excited

47:22

about ? You know , yeah

47:24

, what's got you fired up in the industry right now .

47:26

Yeah , man , that's a good question To

47:29

Anna Rae's point . Things are moving

47:32

slowly , but they're also moving faster

47:34

than they ever have before .

47:36

Right Related to our industry .

47:38

So it's both at the same time before

47:47

, right , related to our industry , so it's both at the same time . For

47:49

me it's really so . Okay , I'll

47:51

give you a quick example of something . So , basically

47:53

, there's a artist , musical

48:02

artist that I respect that when they go out on tour there's

48:05

like these pocket of songs , right , there's these pocket of songs that at the end

48:07

of the concert are like the songs that everybody wants to hear

48:09

. And for

48:11

me , and similar to this artist , if

48:13

I'm doing the same songs that I did from the previous

48:15

album , it means I'm not evolving , right , like

48:17

I'm not . I'm not evolving as

48:20

a professional , as an artist , as an entrepreneur

48:23

, public servant , whatever the case is . And

48:25

so you really see it play out in

48:27

my cannabis journey , from running for office

48:29

to with being with Sticky

48:32

as

48:34

an operator , to , you know , the NCIA

48:36

phase of things , not the team

48:38

, and really it's just a question

48:40

of what comes next . Obviously

48:43

, I'm in a public

48:46

servant role in some ways

48:48

, and so it's really

48:50

, what can I do to advance

48:52

economic development

48:55

, legislative development

48:58

, specifically in communities

49:00

of color across michigan

49:02

, in the peer view that I have , but

49:04

also maintaining that

49:06

cannabis can very much be

49:08

a part of that process ? Right

49:11

if , if done the right way , if

49:13

, if there's a strategic path

49:15

that makes sense for

49:18

there to be this nucleus of

49:20

economic advancement policies

49:24

, community advancement and cannabis

49:26

really playing a part in helping make that

49:29

happen . I think that's really

49:31

like the next iteration of my

49:34

professional career , given like the

49:36

space that I'm in . Did that make

49:38

sense Absolutely ? It made sense Absolutely

49:40

.

49:41

I love that . I love it yeah

49:43

.

49:44

Chris , this has been a pleasure

49:46

. I'm going to hand over

49:48

the mic to you for a last call , which

49:50

is our ending of the show , where we give you

49:52

an opportunity to plug

49:54

whatever you want your call to action

49:57

, call to someone to go to your website

50:00

, whatever it is , um , but thank you for

50:02

being here . And , chris , what's your last ?

50:04

call , last call . Last call is it's

50:06

five o'clock somewhere , so we need to probably

50:08

get an alcoholic beverage . Ben , you got something

50:11

for me with some thc in it . Um

50:13

no , I just I look . I I appreciate

50:15

the work that y'all are doing . We

50:18

were talking a little bit earlier . It's not easy

50:20

to be consistent with

50:22

what you're doing and do it in a

50:24

way that's actually entertaining

50:27

, sure , but also productive

50:30

and educational at the same time , and

50:32

it's very hard to have

50:34

that chemistry take place . So

50:37

, appreciate what y'all are doing , what y'all

50:39

mean to the market . I think that

50:41

everyone that's

50:43

interested in being in cannabis can

50:45

mean something to the market . You just

50:47

have to find out what your niche

50:49

is . Not everybody needs to be an entrepreneur

50:52

. Not everybody has to have a license , not

50:55

everybody wants one , but there's a way

50:57

in which you can be affiliated that continues

50:59

to move the needle forward , based

51:01

on whatever it is we

51:04

need in order to move the market forward . Now

51:06

I'll take a step back and I'll say that's a very

51:08

important thing to say , because , yes

51:11

, there are subsections of the

51:13

cannabis industry and everybody has different

51:15

interests and different needs , but we're also

51:18

basically a post-prohibition

51:20

industry , and

51:22

so there needs to be some level of collectivism

51:25

, at least in

51:27

public right , in

51:29

order for things to continue to move

51:32

as they have been . And

51:34

then , as the industry grows in terms

51:36

of being legal around the country and

51:38

from a federal perspective and from a state

51:40

perspective , then subgroups

51:43

start to make more sense , sub-interests

51:45

start to make more sense . So never forget what you're

51:47

doing it for , but understand that

51:49

if we're fractured and divided

51:52

, like

51:54

other industries have existed a lot longer than

51:56

we have , and they know

51:58

how to play to

52:00

that destructiveness

52:03

, that could be the cannabis industry , and

52:05

all of a sudden it looks like to your point

52:07

earlier , something that we didn't sign

52:09

up for to begin with , and

52:11

even if it feels that way now , it can get a lot

52:13

worse very quickly , and

52:16

so I'm just here

52:18

to call for a sense

52:20

of unity . Families fight right

52:22

, but at the end of the day , they also , like

52:24

the good ones , have each other's back , and

52:27

so whatever we can do

52:29

at NCIA to continue to

52:31

help try to mend burned

52:34

bridges , potentially , and or

52:36

build new relationships like I'm certainly

52:38

here to do that , as

52:40

is everybody that

52:43

we're associated with . So thank you

52:45

again .

52:46

Amazing . Well , chris , it's

52:48

such an honor to have you on the show . You

52:51

mentioned Chris Crane earlier , who we both

52:53

have probably acknowledged that they're

52:55

big shoes to fill . That's

52:57

right . I am super

53:00

appreciative of the energy

53:02

and vision that you bring New

53:04

blood , a lot of energy

53:06

, and I think the industry is going to be better

53:08

off for it . So appreciate you

53:10

doing the hard work and being

53:13

on the show , of course , and super excited

53:15

to hang with you next week . All right

53:17

, see you soon . Thank you , all right , bud . Talk to you soon

53:19

. Nra All right , bud . Talk to you soon . Anna

53:22

Rae another one in the bag . That

53:24

was a great conversation .

53:27

I want to hang out with Chris in person . I'm kind of bummed

53:29

that was over Zoom , but I'll

53:32

take what I can get .

53:33

All right , Well , lobby days 2024

53:36

, maybe 2025 . All

53:39

right , folks , as we wrap up , remember

53:42

that the dialogue doesn't have to end

53:44

here . We invite you to continue

53:46

these conversations and we'd love to hear your

53:48

thoughts . Who would you like to see on the

53:50

show ? What topics would you like to

53:52

have us cover ? We're immensely

53:55

grateful for you . Our

53:58

audience , your engagement , encourages

54:01

us to keep bringing you these thought-provoking

54:03

conversations . So if you've enjoyed this

54:05

episode , please like

54:07

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54:09

High Spirits with your colleagues

54:12

, your friends and

54:14

, heck , your family . Thank

54:16

you to our teams at Firtosa and Wolfmeyer

54:19

for your continuous support in

54:21

our spirited journey and

54:23

, as always , remember folks

54:25

. Stay curious , stay

54:28

informed and , most importantly

54:30

, keep your spirits high Until

54:32

next time . That's the show .