0:00

You're listening to the hire calling podcast . I'm Pete

0:02

Newsome , and my guest today is Kate O'Neill . Kate's

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a co-founder and CEO of teaming , a

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team intelligence software platform for managers

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to help them build healthy , high performing teams

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at work . Kate , welcome , how are you today

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? Oh good , thank you so much for having me , pete

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. Awesome to have you here . I've

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been trying to get you on for a while now .

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Well , I appreciate your patience . You know I

0:22

said this backstage , but I

0:24

love the content you all are doing and

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I'm excited for our conversation .

0:28

Well , it's a small world . It's really neat

0:30

to connect because we met on LinkedIn

0:32

. Then you posted something

0:35

that led me to meet someone else , josh

0:37

Hammons . So we'll have to make sure Josh watches

0:39

this , and Josh and I have become friends

0:41

since that . We're friends on Facebook . Now We've met in person

0:43

. We're talking about doing some things together

0:46

professionally . It's really a cool way

0:48

to use LinkedIn , so thank you for that .

0:50

Real human can be cool to see that it's

0:52

moving beyond just connections

0:54

with me .

0:56

Yeah , there's a lot of interesting things on

0:58

LinkedIn . I'm not sure if you're a Reddit user , but we

1:00

talk a lot internally about the

1:02

LinkedIn lunatics subreddit , so

1:04

if you haven't discovered it yet , there's one on .

1:06

Twitter . I'm going to find what the handle is and send it to

1:08

you , but it's basically like . Basically it's

1:10

calling people out in posts , being like

1:12

this isn't a real story , nice , nice

1:15

.

1:16

Well , that's a problem , though , with LinkedIn right now

1:18

, where I know these aren't real stories

1:21

and I won't name names , but there's huge

1:23

accounts and they make these stories and they're selling their

1:25

service and you can't . Yeah , I don't begrudge anyone

1:27

doing that , but I just want to

1:29

say come on , like this is . This

1:31

is awful , and , being in staffing , at times

1:34

it's even worse , because we see the advice

1:36

that gets the most likes and shares and comments

1:38

is stuff that would get someone fired

1:40

on the spot , like no

1:42

one should be recommending it .

1:44

It's bad content , it's bad advice , yeah

1:47

, but it's , it's dramatic . So

1:49

people , it catches people's eye

1:51

and they're like , ooh , you know , or or it's

1:53

so heartwarming that people don't

1:55

realize that it's not real . If you're doing

1:57

that kind of stuff , it's just for likes

2:00

and clicks and not for real connections

2:02

. So I always take that with a grand

2:04

assault and say , well , you know , I don't think anything

2:06

meaningful will lead from it , but maybe

2:09

but it works .

2:10

I mean , that's the struggle that I have . I don't

2:12

know if you do as well , but it's

2:14

a struggle between posting . I just can't

2:17

sell out to that point . Now I will confess I've started

2:19

posting some memes on LinkedIn and

2:21

you know what I'm . I'm , I'm

2:23

embarrassed to say that gets way more interaction

2:26

and engagement than our serious stuff . And

2:28

we talked a little bit about TikTok before we started

2:31

recording our biggest TikTok video . I mean

2:33

, we put out career advice all day , every day . Our

2:35

biggest , our most viral video 33

2:38

million views . I think the last time I looked was

2:40

a little boy pushing over his sister

2:42

Like and with a funny comment about , like

2:45

Monday , how Monday feels , or something like

2:47

that . I'm like oh , what has happened in my life ?

2:49

Well , I mean , look , if you're , if

2:51

you're , if that stuff is , is is

2:53

crushing right and the stuff that's like serious

2:56

, you know it's a balance right , the person

2:58

who engaged with the brother

3:00

and sister . Now they'll

3:02

actually see the real content

3:04

and that will start to do better and better Right . So

3:06

it's like you know it's , it's

3:08

sugar and vegetables .

3:10

That's right .

3:11

You know , so I like it .

3:12

That's , that's our justification , right ? It's

3:14

brand recognition at work , so we'll keep

3:16

doing it , and I . It's

3:18

snowing in the background where you are , and you're only

3:20

in Tennessee , that is . That's amazing .

3:23

We are today it's only 2

3:25

pm and then apparently

3:28

it's going to snow again on Thursday and Friday . So

3:30

yeah , we're getting , we're

3:32

getting dumped on .

3:33

How unusual is that it does mean for

3:35

where you are .

3:36

I think this has happened maybe two

3:39

other times , and I moved here in 2019

3:41

. So you know , less

3:44

than once a year for sure .

3:46

Wow , I'm envious . I'm in Florida , it's

3:48

actually I could use

3:50

some beach time . Oh

3:53

yeah , but it's too cold to go to the beach and but

3:55

but it's too warm to really enjoy

3:57

the winter . It's done now . I would trade . If

3:59

you ever want to trade , Well , we'll have to talk

4:01

about that .

4:02

Let's do it . I like to come down to meet you and Josh

4:04

.

4:05

So , yes , indeed , yeah , well , we'll

4:07

, we'll plan on it , so , but so 2019

4:10

. So tell me about your career leading up to teaming , because

4:12

that's when you start . You found the teaming Right

4:14

, is that ? Is that what brought you to Nashville ?

4:17

It sort of Anders and I . Previous company

4:19

was called Lean Kit . It did really

4:21

large scale project management

4:23

and process management for really

4:25

large enterprises and I

4:28

was their head of marketing . And then our

4:30

former CEO , our former CIO

4:33

and our former head of engineering all

4:35

got together after that company sold and said

4:37

we want to get the gang back together again

4:39

. We saw the opportunity for teaming while

4:42

at our previous company . So I actually

4:44

knew when I took the job . I

4:46

was living in Atlanta at the time and I

4:48

knew that they were venture backed

4:51

company and they would sell and

4:53

you know , call it three to four

4:55

years tops . And so I didn't

4:57

want to sell my house in Atlanta . So

4:59

I commuted up to Nashville

5:01

for a few years . I'd come

5:03

up Monday morning , I'd leave Thursday night , I

5:06

took most Fridays off don't tell anyone and

5:09

and so that that company sold

5:11

within three years and and

5:13

I was like great , I didn't sell my house but

5:15

I did what I wanted to do career wise . It

5:17

was a great opportunity for me . But then

5:19

when I loved the team and

5:21

we said let's start teaming , it was like all

5:23

right , I got to make the move now , because this is going to be

5:25

a 10 year thing at least . So

5:28

so I made the move about

5:30

six months before the pandemic . Okay , that's interesting

5:32

.

5:34

Didn't see that come in , obviously .

5:36

No , so I didn't have to move , I guess , but I'm really glad I did . I love Nashville

5:38

. I

5:40

still get back to Atlanta all the time . My family's there . It's

5:43

a . It's three hours , three hours and

5:45

15 minutes or so from door to door for me and

5:49

I was there last weekend quick weekend

5:51

trip , and so that's

5:53

. It's nice to be in a place

5:55

I love to live , but close enough to family where I can see them . It's just

5:57

a car ride away . Nice , that's a good distance .

6:00

That's appropriate . You don't want to be too close , that's good

6:02

. Now , so how did , how did

6:04

COVID affect you guys ? You

6:07

started this business , you had plans and then

6:09

, boom , the world starts to fall apart around

6:11

you . Yeah .

6:13

And what stinks is like you

6:15

know . You would think that the rise in remote work it

6:18

did increase demand for tools

6:20

like teaming , but we were just starting to write code for it and

6:24

so we didn't have

6:26

. We weren't there to capitalize on it , which Okay

6:29

, thanks . But but it actually

6:31

was great in the sense that I don't know

6:33

how much you follow , like the funding industry

6:36

, tech markets , but you

6:38

know a lot of money got pumped into coming right .

6:41

I do yes , yes .

6:43

We stayed . We stayed nimble and scrappy and

6:45

and we took on a little bit of angel money , but

6:48

we didn't go out and try to raise

6:50

you know gobs of money at

6:52

an unreasonable valuation . And

6:55

so those businesses a lot of them haven't met

6:57

their scale needs

6:59

right to the money that they they took in

7:01

at that time and so they've gone out of business

7:03

.

7:04

It's happening a lot lately .

7:06

Yeah , and we're I mean knock on

7:08

wood , here We've we've survived

7:10

, so that's been

7:12

really helpful . You know it

7:14

was hard , right . Everyone's taking all this money

7:16

, this , you know , it's like the

7:19

golden age of startup and and

7:21

people are well , you're not doing that too , and

7:24

so that was a hard , hard moment .

7:26

But if you , if you can get away with not doing that , what a home

7:28

run , that's a win .

7:30

You keep , keep the ownership .

7:31

Yes .

7:33

So that's , you know I'm happy where that ended

7:35

up . It was kind of hard , but and

7:37

the other thing that was hard is , like you know

7:39

, if you've ever you've done this where you're

7:42

, you're trying to understand or achieve product

7:44

market fit , but the the

7:46

the market keeps changing . The world

7:48

moved so fast or remote

7:50

. Well , are we going back ? I'm not sure . You

7:53

know like now , this hybrid thing

7:55

the world around us

7:57

, the social things that were going on during

7:59

that time all of that affected

8:01

people managers in a different way

8:04

at a different time , and so we felt

8:06

like it was a little bit of whack-a-mole to

8:08

try to understand the problem that

8:10

they were facing because it kept changing . So

8:12

that was . That was really hard . I think

8:14

we've now narrowed in on

8:16

how to really help managers and

8:19

we've really started to see some some nice

8:21

growth there .

8:22

So that's awesome .

8:23

Yeah .

8:24

Well , let's go back . Let's go backwards in a little

8:26

bit . What was the original premise

8:29

for teaming ? How did it come to be ? Good question .

8:32

So I mentioned , as I mentioned , we were a project

8:34

management software company . You know our last

8:36

company that sold and that company

8:39

you know when we , when we would go into work

8:41

with , call it like every , almost every

8:43

corporate worker at Walmart used

8:45

our software then and we would

8:48

go to teams

8:50

and understand how are we making you work faster

8:52

? That was the promise of the software is . You

8:54

know , we can help you have better processes

8:57

so that you can deliver work faster

8:59

. And we would see like

9:01

we were . We're measuring their work so we can see

9:03

you know Walmart's 3%

9:05

more efficient . That's millions and millions

9:08

of dollars . They're bottom line . But

9:10

when you went and talked to the teams , they

9:12

didn't feel faster and you're

9:14

like , well , walk me through that a little bit . And we realized

9:16

we weren't doing anything

9:18

about what the the most important

9:21

part of our capacity or our speed

9:23

to deliver work , which is our attitude

9:26

, our engagement at work

9:28

, and our old software did

9:30

none of that . In fact , it took

9:32

, it took away a little bit from

9:34

our engagement because it made people feel

9:37

a little bit like a number . Like

9:39

you know , I'm just this machine to go do

9:41

work , which you know we're here

9:43

to work , but because it was

9:45

so , you know anyone could do

9:47

this , or every team is doing this in the same

9:49

way . So what's special about how we're

9:51

doing it ? It's not me , someone

9:53

else could do this job , no problem

9:56

. It made them feel a little bit under

9:58

. So we said , all right , this is , these

10:00

are human problems , and that's

10:02

you know . Where we said All right , this is what teaming

10:05

is going to focus on is how do we help

10:07

managers and their teams

10:09

create the environment they

10:11

want to work , in that they can deliver

10:14

work fast , in that they can increase their

10:16

capacity to do work , and

10:18

so that's what teaming does .

10:20

That is an incredibly

10:22

large challenge Right

10:25

, I mean in a big statement

10:27

for you to make . I mean because

10:29

I can tell you , having owned a business

10:32

now for 18 years and

10:34

wanting nothing more

10:36

. When I started the company , I

10:38

founded the business to be the company

10:41

I couldn't find as an employee , and

10:43

that meant a number of different things to me

10:45

, but I found that what I wanted wasn't

10:47

necessarily what everyone else wanted over

10:50

the years , as we started to grow , and

10:52

I found that to probably be

10:54

my biggest limiter over the years , and

10:57

that part of that is I'm

10:59

I'm a career salesperson

11:01

. I'm someone who was

11:03

comfortable enough with my skill set and abilities

11:06

to start a business . I had the right drive and motivation

11:08

and work ethic and all those things just have to be in place

11:10

and I had the right idea . I thought I could execute

11:13

on it . But that's an entirely different skill

11:15

set than managing a team . I've

11:18

come to realize to a painful

11:20

degree at times , and

11:22

that is something that I will

11:24

tell you , 18 years in , I've not been able to

11:26

solve , and I want everyone

11:28

to like what they're doing . I want everyone to feel included

11:30

and to be happy . But that's

11:33

an incredibly difficult thing and so

11:35

, ok , you've decided we can solve

11:37

this right . How

11:39

? How do you go about doing that ? Where do you

11:41

start ?

11:43

Yeah , good question , well one . I think you

11:45

are not alone . People feel that very

11:47

much . I mean , when you think about when you became

11:49

a manager for the first time , right

11:51

, or maybe it's when you're owning your own

11:54

business , but even still you are

11:56

now a manager , people don't

11:58

think about that . If

12:00

you're a salesperson , you think about the craft

12:02

of sales , which does involve people

12:04

, so you can get a little close

12:06

, but

12:09

you don't really think about I need to learn

12:11

a new profession

12:13

when I'm a manager .

12:15

Perfect way to put it .

12:16

Yes , yeah , there is this

12:18

stigma out there too that we should just

12:20

be good at this , right , because

12:22

we're either a natural leader , like

12:24

oh , he's got natural leadership

12:27

skills , so he should just know

12:29

how to do this , or we

12:31

think we're a bad

12:33

person if we're not a good manager

12:35

, right , or like this is

12:37

a reflection of who we are as people rather

12:39

than as our skills , and

12:43

that's one misconception I try

12:45

to get out right in front is

12:47

management is its own distinct

12:49

profession with its unique skills

12:52

that have nothing to do with your

12:54

functional area of expertise

12:56

. Number one and number two they

12:59

are skills , just like anything

13:02

is a skill , right ? Yes , you can have

13:04

natural inclinations to be

13:06

a good leader . There are things about our

13:08

identity and our personality that make

13:11

one leader maybe better suited

13:13

or better to start as

13:16

a leader , but if you don't continue

13:18

to nurture those things and become an

13:20

expert in them , become a learner

13:23

of those things , you're not going to get better

13:26

.

13:26

And no one's . I think you'd agree with

13:28

this , but I believe anyone's intentionally

13:31

bad at it , and they

13:33

are bad , and I think , now more than ever

13:35

, employees have higher expectations

13:38

on their manager . They're more critical

13:40

outwardly , publicly

13:42

, at times , as we've probably

13:44

all seen over the past week with this

13:46

video that this young

13:49

lady who was being fired or terminated

13:51

from her software job have you seen

13:53

it ? You haven't seen this ? All

13:55

right then . I'm going to move on from

13:57

it though , but she recorded herself being laid

14:00

off , and it's

14:02

been pretty viral over the past

14:04

week and the criticism

14:07

that comes out for

14:09

, just as Vittorol claimed , the employer

14:12

. It is so quick

14:14

to happen now , and I always think well

14:16

, no one is intentionally being awful

14:18

, right , they , and so

14:20

All right , so so that's a huge problem

14:22

. We know it's a problem , I'm part of the problem

14:24

, god knows that . So

14:27

where do you go from there ? I mean , how do

14:29

you even begin to tackle that cake ? Because

14:31

that's just insurmountable

14:33

, it seems to me .

14:34

Well , people , problems are messy problems

14:37

, for sure , and I think

14:39

it's also reframe a little

14:41

bit . You know you might solve one problem

14:43

and then use that same approach for

14:45

another , very similar problem at a different time

14:47

, and it's a different time , and

14:50

that right . So the world is changing around

14:52

you as you're trying to navigate these

14:54

things like communication

14:56

or having hard conversations , the things

14:59

that managers need to do , like firing someone

15:01

. There

15:04

are just ways that you learn how to do these things

15:06

that I think are

15:08

good , just first principles of management

15:10

that some managers know , some don't

15:13

. A lot of companies don't teach them

15:15

, so then they don't know . So that's sort of like layer

15:17

one . Ok , what are the first principles

15:19

of management ? Layer two is how

15:21

can we help people to do these things faster

15:24

? So that's where that's where teaming Well

15:26

, I would say we do both which is teaming

15:29

is a software platform where

15:31

you do your work , so we are in your meetings

15:34

. I don't have it in here , but like it's

15:36

an assistant that joins every meeting

15:38

for you and takes meeting notes , right , so

15:40

you can stay engaged in the conversation

15:43

. You can really see active

15:45

listening , right , all the things that we know are

15:47

important , and so we're automating

15:50

where we can . We are automating

15:52

things for particularly

15:54

managers , because that's usually where it starts

15:56

, right , where they're setting the

15:58

tone . They're setting what's

16:00

behavior is acceptable , what's not . How

16:02

we're going to communicate , what are our team norms

16:04

going to be right ? So there's a lot of help

16:06

from teaming to the manager . But the

16:09

team member is also included

16:11

, right , they are also using teaming

16:13

in their meetings and we say

16:15

, ok , we're going to automate what we can

16:17

and then we're going to coach directly

16:20

each person based on their

16:23

communication styles and preferences

16:25

. So if you think about an algorithm

16:27

, right , or training

16:30

a piece of software to me

16:32

, right , let's say you are my manager

16:34

, right , and you have a very specific

16:36

communication style and it is opposite of

16:39

mine . Yes , we are much more

16:41

likely to butt heads because

16:43

we communicate differently . There

16:46

are also cultural things , right , we're

16:48

from different areas of the country . We

16:50

, you know you're a man , I'm a woman , right , like

16:52

those things can be . Just

16:55

, we're different people .

16:57

All the above , yeah .

16:58

Yeah , all the above . And so we say , OK

17:00

, teaming is going to learn about both these

17:02

people , about how they're communicating in

17:05

the meetings . So it's not just taking notes

17:07

, it's learning how we communicate

17:09

and then offers very

17:11

tailored coaching about

17:14

what topics were

17:16

communicated really well , based

17:18

on our communication styles and what

17:20

could be improved . So I

17:22

like to use this as an example . Let's say you're a , you're

17:24

a high like , let's keep this high level , and

17:26

I'm a details person . I got

17:29

to know the deal . Let's start with the details and then let's

17:31

work our way to the big picture . That is

17:33

like two really hard ways to come into

17:35

a conversation , but it happens all the

17:37

time . I will get coaching on

17:39

the times , these very specific

17:41

topics . You know Project

17:43

Twitter or Project Glass

17:46

, whatever , where I kept it high level

17:48

and you appreciated that because it's what

17:50

you were looking for in the status update

17:53

from me . And then , conversely

17:55

, I'll get hey , you know , in

17:57

this instance , when you talked about , you

17:59

know , project matches , you

18:01

know you really dove into the details and you

18:03

didn't need to Because wasn't what Pete was looking

18:06

for .

18:06

Okay .

18:07

And then vice versa , right when

18:09

I might need help with something , or I don't

18:11

know something that I maybe should

18:13

know , or it's a different expectation of

18:15

me that's new and

18:18

I don't know what to do . You'll

18:20

get coaching , very specific to

18:22

me , that says , hey , when Kate

18:24

was doing this new thing , you let her dive

18:26

into the details and ask you lots

18:28

of different detailed questions , and

18:30

that was great for her because she learned how

18:32

to do the thing that she's gonna

18:35

be able to not dive into

18:37

the details with you again afterwards

18:39

.

18:39

Okay , okay .

18:40

Very specifically honed in on

18:43

first management , like first

18:45

principles . As managers right , your responsibility

18:47

, my responsibility . You know how we

18:49

do career stuff , goal

18:52

setting , all that and then we layer on top

18:54

of that how , exactly how

18:56

you're communicating . Let's learn

18:58

exactly how to make your

19:01

communication better , more effective

19:03

over time .

19:03

I mean this sounds too good to be true . Okay

19:07

, because and I can say it really resonates

19:09

with me because of what I admitted to

19:11

you already is that this

19:13

is not my strength , and I'll tell you a story

19:15

in a minute of how not my strength

19:17

it really is . But what are you

19:19

assessing and interpreting and reading

19:22

to be able to offer that feedback ? How

19:24

does I mean ? Just not , don't get too technical

19:26

with it because it'll go over my

19:28

head , but how does that work ?

19:30

Have you ever taken a disc assessment or Myers-Briggs

19:33

?

19:33

Yes .

19:34

So we start with the disc . Okay , You're

19:36

kind of for teaming you take a disc assessment . Okay , use that

19:38

as your call it , your natural style

19:41

and your general style . And

19:43

then we know , because we're

19:45

in the meetings with you , we know when you're presenting

19:47

that style and when you're not .

19:50

Okay .

19:51

Like when you're getting fired , for instance you

19:53

. That's an adrenaline , it's

19:55

a really uncomfortable situation , right

19:57

? It's different than your natural

19:59

style , right ? So we know the contact

20:02

sorry , the content ends

20:05

the context of a meeting and

20:07

you know basically what is the standard deviation

20:10

of your communication , off of your

20:12

, like , natural , general

20:15

, any given day type of

20:17

communication .

20:18

Okay , that makes sense yeah

20:20

.

20:20

Yeah , and then same for me , right , and

20:22

we kind of see where the building blocks fit and where

20:24

they don't fit , but that's .

20:26

Yeah , that makes . So . When you say we , we're talking

20:28

AI , right , teaming is an AI , I

20:30

know it's not you , you know

20:34

looking over our shoulder . But what

20:36

about a scenario where which I think this is

20:38

this applies to my internal

20:40

team , I think most teams where now

20:43

we used to give disc assessments , people and we

20:45

tried to hire based on those , but we

20:48

kind of threw it out the window because we realized

20:50

, just because you fall into one

20:52

category , it doesn't mean you can't be good . There's

20:54

, you know , there's , people can have different strengths and weaknesses

20:56

and if they apply them the right way

20:58

, they can be equally effective . Right

21:00

? So we , we , we don't do it anymore , but

21:02

we did it . So I lived that for a while . But

21:05

having lived that , I can tell you that

21:07

some people on our team have very different

21:09

styles . So what , while mine

21:11

may apply a certain way , how

21:14

it's going to be interpreted is going to differ

21:16

, if in a group conversation . So how do you reconcile

21:18

that ?

21:19

That's exactly that's so interesting . You said

21:21

that . So that's that's where the real power

21:24

of AI comes in , because our brains

21:26

can't grok that right . Like I

21:28

can't understand when

21:30

you know when you are presenting this way

21:32

or when you're not right , machines

21:35

can do that for us . And and

21:37

I should blanket this all with sort

21:39

of a warning which is this is new

21:41

, right , we don't know what

21:43

the feedback we're getting back from this is

21:46

like wow .

21:48

Okay .

21:48

So me , right . And that's when

21:50

you think about the history of things like disk

21:53

, myers-briggs , strengths , finder , enneagram

21:55

, all that stuff . They're just frameworks

21:57

that our human minds came

22:00

up with . They're not based

22:02

on science , right , right ? And

22:04

so the the you

22:08

know the how good is this thing

22:10

? Right , this framework is basically

22:13

what we make of it . Disk has

22:15

been around for a hundred years because people think

22:17

that I did identify

22:19

. That is me .

22:21

Right .

22:21

You know , and we continue to share

22:23

our , share it with each other and

22:25

ask each other to take and to

22:28

be known by other people right

22:30

To have better communication , to do these

22:32

things , but it's it's , you know

22:34

, it's the , it's still the stone

22:37

tablet version , really right

22:39

? All of those assessments are that .

22:41

Sure .

22:41

Now , with AI , right , we

22:44

can actually attribute

22:46

the . The disk attributes

22:48

to the actual communication , to

22:50

the context , right ? Am I being fired

22:53

right now ? Am I being promoted right now ? Am I

22:55

, am I talking to a peer or

22:57

a boss ? Am I talking to a direct report

22:59

? Right , like ? What are the power dynamics ? All

23:02

that stuff can be fed into

23:04

a machine to understand and

23:06

to package it together

23:08

, to know whether or not the disk

23:11

or the Myers-Briggs or whatever is actually

23:13

true of us and in what situations

23:16

are they true , with which

23:18

people . And so so we will

23:20

layer over and in the app you

23:22

can see , it's very basic . Right now , it's

23:24

just the disk where we'll show you

23:27

who you are as individuals and

23:29

then we'll show you what are your combined

23:31

strengths . So so , kate and Pete

23:33

together , what are the things they're really

23:35

good at together and what are the things that

23:37

they need work on ?

23:39

Okay .

23:39

And what's really interesting to

23:41

me is we gravitate towards

23:43

people who are like us , who communicate

23:46

like us .

23:47

Sure makes sense .

23:48

Because it's easier , right , it's easier to communicate

23:51

the way someone you know

23:53

to . When you have a common way

23:55

of communicating , it just feels

23:57

easier to us . But what's

24:00

interesting is that two similar people

24:02

have the biggest blind spots

24:04

in the way that they communicate , the way they behave

24:06

, the way they innovate , the way they have creative

24:08

ideas , right ? So you , yes

24:10

, it's easier , but in the same time , you're

24:13

more limited with what you're

24:15

gonna be able to do together . Often , Sure

24:17

. We'll see . Well , you know , like the

24:20

AI , you know , in five years we'll be having this conversation

24:22

. We will know , you know what

24:24

. The truth of these things but it's

24:26

what we early see , right Is

24:28

that two similar people will gravitate towards each other

24:30

at first , but have struggles

24:33

to break out of or to do

24:35

different things or to communicate in different

24:37

ways that are necessary , sometimes with

24:39

the context . Now , the reverse

24:42

is true for two very opposite people , right

24:44

, who have opposite communication styles . It's gonna be

24:46

harder at first , but when

24:48

they're able to learn and to grow

24:50

together , it can be really

24:53

fruitful . They can do different

24:55

things , explore different areas , have more creative

24:57

ideas together , appreciate each

24:59

other's strengths and blind spots

25:01

because it's usually , you know , compensating for the

25:04

other , right . Like we appreciate

25:06

each other , it's easier to appreciate the differences

25:08

. So I don't know if that answers you ?

25:10

No , it does . Well , and it makes sense , complete

25:12

sense . If two people are , you know , have the exact

25:14

same perspective on everything , that doesn't

25:16

account for how they're communicating externally

25:18

to anyone else , so they may get along , you know

25:20

, fabulously , but as they're trying

25:22

to share their message to anyone

25:24

else that doesn't fall in line with

25:27

their perspective , it's

25:29

gonna be . They're gonna miss out on a lot of opportunities .

25:32

Yeah , absolutely , and what I think

25:34

, where machines also come in , which

25:36

we're just about to release this tomorrow . I cannot wait

25:39

to see what's going on All right , hot off the press

25:41

. Yeah , so we are

25:43

. We now will analyze all

25:45

like , let's say , this is a one-on-one you're my manager

25:48

weekly or bi-weekly one-on-one with

25:50

you to go through . You know how are we

25:52

progressing towards our goals ? Am

25:54

I performing ? You know

25:56

? What do you need to know for me about the work , those

25:58

kinds of things that we talk about in one-on-ones . We

26:01

will now analyze the series

26:04

, the one-on-one series , and say

26:06

hey to you . We'll

26:08

say hey , you know , here's a list

26:10

of suggested topics for your

26:12

next one-on-one and they are based

26:14

on topics that never came to resolution

26:17

in your recent one-on-ones

26:20

. Right , we will show you why

26:22

that is important , based on my communication

26:25

style . Let's say I brought up the fact

26:27

that I don't have various detailed

26:29

career goals once three

26:31

months ago . That could mean a lot

26:33

to me , but I didn't bring

26:35

it up . I only brought it up once and it

26:37

didn't come to resolution and it's

26:40

not my style to bring it up again right , okay

26:42

. Teaming will now tell you hey

26:45

, this is important , or it's likely important

26:47

, to Kate . Maybe you should bring it up again . And

26:50

then we'll also remind you of the

26:52

context from your last conversation . Where

26:54

did you leave the conversation , so you can pick

26:56

up with it where you

26:58

left off right , I mean this

27:01

sounds amazing really .

27:02

I didn't know much about teaming before

27:04

this conversation right now , and

27:07

I'm thinking of so many applications

27:09

for it in my own situation and what has

27:12

limited me as a manager

27:14

, and one employee in particular comes to

27:16

mind where , great employee

27:18

, there's so much good but there's just a

27:20

conflict , always under the surface

27:23

, that seems when we communicate with each other . Right

27:25

, where I say something , it sounds

27:28

one way coming from me , but I know

27:30

it's interpreted a different way consistently

27:33

and it's frustrating

27:35

, and I know it's frustrating for this individual

27:37

as well . Right , because

27:39

I think I don't

27:41

think I should have that reaction Like I didn't . I

27:43

thought this was going to be something you'd like to hear

27:45

and clearly body language , tone

27:47

, you can read how well the message is delivered

27:50

, but it doesn't necessarily mean you can

27:52

do something about it , and I think that's

27:54

been such a limitation

27:56

for me and so many others . I

27:58

don't think my plight in this

28:00

is that much of an anomaly where

28:03

I mean well , but the delivery

28:05

is . Now , if someone is aligned

28:07

with me , the delivery is great . Here

28:09

it is few words , boom

28:11

, we're off and running . But that's limiting

28:14

. You can't scale that way as a business

28:16

. I can Guarantee that is

28:18

limited our growth over the years ?

28:22

Look , yeah , I mean we started out this . How do you solve this problem

28:24

? Sometimes it can't be solved right , sometimes

28:27

it's just where we are in life or what

28:29

we have going on , or whatever the case may be

28:31

right . And sometimes it is that with a hard

28:34

employee , you can lead

28:36

someone to water but you can't make them drink

28:38

, kind of things . But we

28:40

can make sure that we're doing and

28:42

we can now understand

28:45

at a deeper level those people

28:47

and understand that we are

28:49

doing everything we can to make that person

28:51

a success and that's how

28:53

I rest at night . I don't know about you , but like

28:56

hey , I've done everything I can do . This

28:58

person can either come to

29:00

it and want to work here

29:02

, see the career progression

29:05

they could have , see the potential

29:07

money they could make , whatever their

29:09

motivations are , which teaming will help you to know

29:12

right , sometimes it's just

29:14

not going to work out , but I think

29:16

we can make a way better impact

29:19

on employee turnover

29:21

and we are . We're seeing it .

29:23

That's so fascinating .

29:25

One-on-one great connection .

29:27

I can point to the time

29:29

where the world shifted

29:31

, the societal shift kicked in

29:33

generational shift is probably the better way

29:35

to put it where what had allowed

29:38

us to grow up until that point , what I was taught

29:40

, what I believed to be all that was

29:42

necessary as far as opportunity

29:44

that was presented to employees . An

29:47

employee resigned because

29:49

he wanted to pursue his passion , and

29:51

the passion was going to pay significantly

29:53

less , and it was a

29:56

road that had nothing to do with the one we were

29:58

on , and I

30:00

looked at him like he was crazy for

30:02

resigning , for walking away from a

30:05

significant income to one that wasn't

30:07

nearly as good and

30:09

not going to lead to the same kind of path

30:11

, and that was 2014

30:13

. And not long after that . I

30:16

didn't know what I was seeing at the time but

30:18

, looking back , that was the beginning of a

30:20

big shift in generational perspectives

30:23

and what was important and

30:25

what I was kind of alluded

30:27

to earlier , what I thought I needed to provide as

30:29

an employer , what I wanted as an employee , was

30:32

no longer enough , and

30:34

it now employs expects

30:37

so much more than I did coming

30:39

out of school , and once

30:42

that is ingrained , it doesn't really change

30:44

. I don't think so . Now we have a generation

30:46

who graduated

30:48

or is coming into their professional life at a

30:50

time where they could work

30:52

from wherever you want . I mean , while I'm a fan

30:55

of that , well , it's hard to go backwards

30:57

, that genie's hard to put back in

30:59

the bottle . And so many young professionals

31:01

now came out of school at a time where it was so

31:03

much , it was an employee's market to a degree

31:06

that I haven't seen in the 30 years since I

31:08

graduated from college . Well , boy

31:10

, talk about setting your perspective in

31:13

a dangerous way , because now that pendulum

31:15

has swung back a little bit , it's

31:18

not so much an employee's market anymore , and so it's struggle

31:20

. So there's all these things that

31:23

my age is hard to contend

31:25

with and see their perspective , but it's absolutely

31:28

necessary . So , as you're

31:30

talking , I'm thinking this is , boy

31:33

, what a I mean what a solution for the

31:35

modern time that we're in .

31:37

Well , look what you're . The perspective

31:39

you have right of the last 30 years

31:41

is an important one , but

31:44

even take it out further , right . This

31:47

is the first time in human history

31:49

where teams

31:51

have been as diverse as they are . It's

31:53

the first time in human history where

31:55

remote work is a possibility

31:58

. Right , it's the first

32:00

time at all . Yes , it's the first time in

32:02

human history where we have four

32:05

generations in the workplace . Right

32:07

, it was like one or two at

32:09

best .

32:10

Right .

32:11

Now it's three or four and

32:13

that's sort of like age diversity

32:15

, right . But it makes

32:18

making those common

32:20

human connections , where we see

32:22

people who are similar to us , where we do communicate

32:25

, really easily , right , which is

32:27

an important part of our working world

32:29

and our community and all that as is

32:31

, you know , connecting with others . But

32:34

you see less of that , and so the

32:36

the , the responsibility

32:38

of making sure that the team creates

32:41

the connections necessary for healthy

32:43

, high performance , is harder

32:45

. It's just harder than it's ever been

32:48

.

32:49

Oh , by the way , at a time where we don't

32:51

interact with each other outside of

32:53

business , we don't see each other in the hall , walk

32:55

, in the parking lot at lunch . You know all those things

32:57

. This is it . This is all you get and

33:00

the limited feedback that you know

33:02

that comes with it . That's something that I , you know . I'm trying

33:05

to watch 15 people at once

33:07

on zoom to see how a statement you know is

33:09

is received right , which is nearly

33:11

impossible .

33:13

The other thing that is become less

33:15

structured as well . So we we talked

33:17

about agile . You probably are familiar with this agile transformation

33:20

, right ?

33:20

Of course .

33:22

You know , 30 years ago . I felt this way 10 years

33:24

ago , where I worked in the marketing department . I talked

33:26

to other marketers all day and I did marketing

33:28

work and and . Fast forward

33:30

just 10 years and it's like I spend most

33:33

of my time with sales people

33:35

, customer success people , it

33:37

tech developer people to

33:39

deliver marketing projects

33:41

. Right , because that's the

33:44

world we live in now . And

33:46

so we're not even speaking the same common

33:48

functional language with most of the people

33:50

we work with . And then , finally

33:53

, the way that we've progressed in our

33:55

career changes too . So

33:57

we used to have a very like , we

34:00

used to have very hierarchical organizations

34:02

where you , you know , you got past , I

34:04

got promoted , I went up this way . Now

34:07

it's very and it's continuing

34:09

this trend to be way more horizontal , where

34:11

our ability to influence people

34:13

and to , to you know , sell our

34:15

idea or help to inspire

34:18

people to work on the project that we're

34:20

doing , those skills become

34:22

, so like , more important than ever

34:24

because there's not a clear path . The

34:27

path is , you know , pivots on the mountain

34:29

rather than a straight line

34:32

yes , yes , absolutely

34:34

. So a young ? I feel so

34:36

bad for a young person because there's no playbook

34:38

anymore .

34:40

Well it ? Well , because that's how Zendig

34:42

came to be and we talked a little

34:44

bit about that . Now we're talking about you know

34:46

, we're here through through , you know , in this podcast

34:49

because of a four corner resources

34:51

, the staffing company that

34:53

I'm president of . But we

34:56

launched Zendig and the reason why it's

34:58

a Z in the because it's a winding

35:00

path . So our original logo , which

35:02

we couldn't really make work to come

35:04

to agreement on you're a marketing person , you know

35:06

how this goes , but but we

35:08

loved the premise of a winding path

35:10

because that is so true . What people go

35:12

to school for and

35:15

I won't go down this road right now whether they should go

35:17

to school , whether they need to , and

35:19

there is no great source

35:21

for finding those answers . And

35:23

then when you're out in the real world , it's even worse , because

35:26

now you're there alone

35:28

and you have bills to pay and responsibilities

35:30

and you have to figure all this out and

35:33

it's a mess , right . And so if

35:35

you don't feel , I mean as you're talking , I

35:37

get it . I mean I hate that so many people

35:39

who've worked for us over the years have

35:42

not felt that

35:44

they could just be open with us and

35:47

communicate with us and connect . It's

35:49

probably been the hardest thing for me to overcome

35:51

and even though it's been 18 years since I

35:53

started my own business

35:55

was feeling like the emperor

35:57

with no clothes , like because I'm the last

35:59

to know if someone's upset or

36:01

bothered by something . And we've made policy

36:03

changes and procedures . I mean you have to put the stuff in

36:05

place as you grow as an organization . Even

36:08

though I didn't want to at first , I wanted

36:10

to be free and not let policy and procedure

36:12

ever slow us down . I still think we do

36:14

that , but we have to have some structure

36:17

. And to find out that people

36:19

were so upset by these

36:21

changes but just there was no mechanism by which

36:23

they could communicate . And it sounds like

36:26

you're helping solve a lot of these problems , which I

36:28

think is so necessary and

36:30

important .

36:33

It's just hard to navigate work these

36:35

days . Right , we'll use

36:37

the power of AI to help with

36:39

human connection . Right , automate

36:41

the things we can automate so that we can focus

36:44

on communicating well , connecting

36:46

well and using a machine to help

36:48

me better understand people . It just

36:51

makes sense , right ? What

36:53

I love so much about when I see new

36:55

users of Teaming is that

36:58

everything's private , right , so you'll see

37:00

the feedback about your

37:02

own communication with me just to you , right

37:04

? No one else can see that . But

37:07

what happens , which I love , is

37:09

that they'll share it with each other

37:11

and say was this right ? Like , is this

37:13

how you felt ? Right

37:17

, and that's the aha moment . Right

37:19

, that's when two people are taking

37:21

the conversation offline , outside

37:23

of the machine , to really

37:25

use it as a connection

37:28

point . Right , to better understand

37:30

each other . And that's what

37:32

we're looking for at work , you know

37:34

, or that's what we need . Right , there

37:36

is actual science on what is always

37:39

true of a healthy , high performing team

37:41

, no matter what team type it is

37:43

, no matter how long you've been working together , whether

37:45

you're co-located or remote , right , none

37:48

of that matters . There's actual

37:51

attributes of the way the group operates

37:53

that are necessary to be

37:55

healthy and high performing , and that's what

37:57

we want to help teams be able to focus on . It's the

37:59

hard stuff , it's trust , it's

38:01

accountability , it's , you know

38:03

, commitment . It's focus

38:06

right , shared focus . Those things are so

38:08

hard to build , so let's

38:11

one automate what we can

38:13

so we can stay engaged in the

38:15

human connection of things and then use

38:18

machines to help us understand where

38:20

we're connecting and where we're not , to

38:22

be better right .

38:23

Oh man , so true , so necessary

38:26

. All right , I'm convinced anyone who's

38:28

listening now will would be . You could not

38:30

be from this conversation . So where

38:33

do we go ? So someone's , if we're interested

38:35

in teaming , want to learn more , want to use

38:37

, you know , get started , walk

38:39

, walk me through that .

38:41

Yeah , good question . So one , I'm always available

38:43

. I try . We're a small team and

38:45

this is still new . By the way , we're a pretty young

38:48

company . There's still a lot of work we need

38:50

to do . So I say that all with the caveat

38:52

of we'll work with us on it

38:54

. On it , it might not be the the I

38:56

shouldn't say that people have really great experience

38:58

up front , but I try to really talk

39:01

to everyone . So if you're interested in being a customer

39:03

, send me a DM on on LinkedIn . I'm

39:05

always ready to either hop on a zoom

39:07

, walk you through it in a shared video

39:10

. However you prefer to communicate , I'll

39:12

do . But you can sign up on your own

39:14

if you want to . At teamingcom you

39:17

can sign up free . There's a 14 day

39:19

free trial If you need an extension on

39:21

that , I know someone need more

39:23

time with it , but but yeah , you can kind

39:25

of choose your own adventure . When you sign

39:28

up and you get to take your disc assessment , you

39:30

invite teaming into your meetings . It

39:32

works in person too , so

39:34

it works . If you're going into a meeting

39:36

room and you've got like the room reserved

39:39

, we'll hook into the mic to

39:41

in the room to actually do it

39:43

in person If that's your , your style

39:45

or that's how you're you're set up . So

39:48

, yeah , that that's how it , that

39:50

that's where it is and the agenda things coming out tomorrow

39:52

, so that'll be part of your free trial .

39:54

Awesome .

39:55

It takes some time right . We learn over

39:57

time , so the longer you use

39:59

it , the more smart it gets .

40:02

That's , that's AI , right . It is someone who's

40:04

used it almost daily

40:06

for the for a little over a year

40:08

now . The learning , the

40:10

, the , the back and forth , the interaction

40:12

is is is fascinating

40:15

to watch and we're just we're just at the

40:17

or just scratching the surface of where it's going

40:19

.

40:20

For you , and maybe this is the age old question

40:22

I don't said no one ever .

40:24

Okay , great , I can't wait to hear

40:26

what's next .

40:27

Because hiring gets all the glory

40:29

and the money and the . You

40:32

know the excitement . Right Is

40:34

, is that right when ? How do we find new

40:36

people ? How do we find the right people ? Right , it's

40:38

, it's the , it's the like

40:40

new toy always in

40:42

in this industry . Right Versus

40:44

hey , how do we make it work with the people we've

40:47

got ?

40:47

Yeah , well , get well , okay . So

40:49

let me I can address that

40:51

. We are not in the retention business , but

40:54

you'd be surprised at how many companies

40:56

blame us with . You know , as an industry

40:58

, right , In a profession , when the , when the

41:00

employee doesn't work out despite

41:03

that . And so you mentioned something

41:05

a few minutes ago . You said that it's

41:07

things aren't perfect yet . Well , things are never

41:09

going to be perfect . One of the things that

41:11

I've said over the years to prospective clients

41:13

is don't think that

41:16

working with us will eliminate problems . I guarantee

41:18

you will have problems if we work together enough , because

41:21

people are our product , is people

41:23

right , and so our product

41:25

walks and talks and thanks and gets drunk

41:27

on Sunday night and doesn't show up on Monday

41:29

. So we have that element . Right

41:31

, your software is not going out partying tonight

41:34

, right , it's going to be there in the morning . Well

41:37

, ours has a spouse that

41:39

is bad influence and has car

41:41

problems , and you know you

41:43

name it right . So there's that . But

41:46

also , we're the outsiders

41:48

, we're the , so we , our

41:50

relationships are best . So , having

41:52

been in this industry a long time , I've

41:55

the hiring happens a whole lot of different

41:57

ways , but what works well for us is where

41:59

we're considered an extension of the organization

42:02

we work with . They really consider us a

42:04

partner , and I don't mean that in the cliche

42:06

way , because everyone says that , but where

42:09

they see value in what we do . And

42:11

you know that from from your career

42:14

to where , if you're just a vendor , that

42:16

the second you make a mistake or

42:18

do something wrong or you're not

42:20

valued , then there's no

42:23

relationship at all and it's really not healthy

42:25

. And so staffing could be

42:27

great , but it could also be

42:29

fraught with challenges . I'll

42:31

just say so don't be envious

42:33

. I was going to say I haven't

42:35

.

42:35

It's a really interesting perspective because I haven't thought

42:37

about that Like I . You know , you see

42:39

all the amazing things that the tech

42:41

and the , you know , all the resources that

42:43

go into staffing and and I

42:45

don't think about the reverse of you get

42:47

blamed too .

42:49

And I'll tell you the interesting . So when I started

42:52

this is how old I am in 1993 , we

42:54

didn't have monster career builder

42:56

. The internet wasn't , wasn't ? I

42:58

mean , the internet existed thanks to Al Gore , but

43:00

it but it wasn't a thing that you had

43:02

on your desktop and certainly not

43:04

in the form it is today . So when

43:07

I would post job ads , I would

43:09

do it in newspaper , trade magazines

43:11

, resumes would be mailed and faxed to

43:14

me , and I didn't know where

43:16

the next candidate resume was going to come from , right

43:18

when , if I go on LinkedIn today , there's

43:21

thousands and thousands , and

43:23

so there's always another one to come , and

43:25

so I didn't have to place as much value on that individual

43:28

interaction and conversation

43:30

. So when I had a resume if I had your resume

43:32

, Kate , it was like gold , because I

43:34

may not have another one to , I may not have

43:36

another person to call , so I

43:39

wouldn't have to invest fully in that conversation

43:41

. It made me really good . I had to be

43:43

good Now , and so technology

43:46

. This is a good example of where technology has made

43:48

us not as good as we used to be , and

43:50

so you know , I sound like the old guy saying

43:52

that , and my team probably rolls their

43:55

eyes when they hear it . But

43:58

I'll back that up all day long . Because you

44:00

didn't have any other choice , you couldn't rely

44:02

on technology , and so it's a crutch and it's

44:04

a good one . I wouldn't trade it . I don't want to go backwards

44:06

, it's just made us more efficient . But anyone

44:09

who's on LinkedIn today sees the complaints that

44:11

happen . Candidates , you know , frustrated they

44:14

can't get an interview . Recruiters won't call them back and

44:17

it is impractical . If you're a recruiter , if you have a thousand

44:19

applicants for a job you're

44:21

never going to see . You know , number 101

44:24

to number 1000 , you're

44:26

just never going to . So it's a . It's

44:28

a weird system right now that we've created

44:30

for recruiting .

44:32

That's a great perspective . Yeah , that's

44:34

really interesting . I

44:36

I've never thought of it that way and now

44:38

that you say that , like , I think there's one

44:40

executive recruiter that I've really

44:43

enjoyed and actually trusted

44:45

right to place me somewhere , whereas

44:47

everything else has just been through my network , because

44:49

it's who you trust right and

44:51

there has to be a level of trust there

44:54

on both sides . For a recruiter , the

44:56

company's got to trust you to find the right person and the

44:58

right person has to trust you to place them in the

45:00

right environment . It's it's really hard

45:02

work and I absolutely see how technology

45:05

can be a correction , correction . That world

45:07

.

45:08

It has . It has become that , you know , with

45:10

the need for efficiency and speed , where

45:13

I would argue it's , it's

45:15

in , there's , there's third parties now

45:17

that exist to set . They

45:20

exist in between the hiring manager and

45:22

the staffing companies , and that

45:24

sounds great on paper If you're the company saying

45:26

, hey , you look , how efficient this is and , by

45:28

the way , we charge the staffing company for that

45:30

service and your managers don't have to get involved

45:32

, and I would reject that entirely

45:35

. If I'm hiring for you , I

45:37

have to hear from you , I have

45:39

to know who you want , not

45:41

just what you need . And if

45:44

I'm doing my job well , I'm going to deliver

45:46

one resume to you and that's the person you're going to

45:49

hire . And so I will never recruit

45:51

based on volume , even though that's become

45:53

attractive . So

45:55

I could go on for days about that . You're getting more than

45:57

you asked for with that question .

45:58

No , I'm glad , I'm glad he mindset

46:00

to , and maybe this is wrong to think this way

46:02

. But hire slow , fire fast . Hiring

46:06

slow right is really just

46:08

like finding the right person is

46:11

so important .

46:15

But that can go too far too . I saw the best

46:17

post on LinkedIn an hour

46:19

before we got on today . I'm going

46:21

to try to get exactly it said . If Alabama

46:23

can replace the best

46:26

coach in the history of college coaching

46:28

in a day , how come

46:30

it takes you so long to fill your accounting

46:32

opening ? It was so

46:34

perfect . I'm like man . I wish I had written

46:36

that because you know

46:39

, because to your point , like I get it . You're like I want

46:41

to find the perfect person , and I would

46:43

argue there's no perfect

46:45

right , there is no perfect person . So find

46:48

the person that feels good . And I've been on that , receiving

46:50

a niche position . This is years ago

46:52

and there was one person

46:54

in the state of Florida qualified for the role I mean

46:57

, and we delivered this person just

46:59

by sheer luck is in coincidence as much

47:02

as anything else . Finding them so quickly . But within a couple

47:04

of days of being asked to fill

47:06

this role , and the C

47:08

level person who we were recruiting for was so freaked out

47:10

by that . She's like I can't hire this

47:12

person right away and I'm like

47:14

why she goes ? Because it's too fast . I'm

47:16

like but it's , but the person's perfect

47:19

. And she's like I know but

47:21

and so she couldn't come out with any words

47:23

or phrases to justify it , but

47:25

it was that uncertain feeling and fortunately

47:28

I took a month to get her , to convince

47:30

her that there was no other candidate . Because she

47:32

said , well , send me more . I'm like there is no more

47:34

and I'm not doing my

47:36

job If I'm going to send you someone not as good

47:39

as the one I've already sent . Right

47:41

, that doesn't reflect well on me . So it's , as you

47:43

get into the on the recruiter side of the table

47:45

, you see a little bit of a different perspective

47:47

. I think , yeah , that's interesting .

47:49

I want to come to that . To me that's

47:51

the perfect example of they . They

47:54

retained their old coach for a very long time

47:57

and they did succession planning , I'm

47:59

sure right with him as

48:01

things . You know . They

48:04

did the things with the people that they had

48:06

really well so

48:08

that they could recruit really

48:10

fast , you know .

48:12

I don't know . But this new guy , I mean , do you know much ? I don't

48:14

know if you're a college football fan , but they hired the guy who was

48:16

sort of the hot , you know , you know , new coach

48:18

. He was the coach of Washington

48:20

and they , they , they just were in the championship

48:22

game and so he

48:24

just bailed on Washington to go over there

48:27

and it just happened so

48:29

fast . And you're thinking replacing Nick

48:31

Saban . You know the arguably

48:33

you know , the winning best coach of all time . I

48:35

don't know the stats or he's not the only good coach , but

48:37

it's , I'm like man

48:39

. That was , that was . How can you replace this

48:41

legend that quickly ? And they did it

48:43

. So it was such a good post on . Like that , I'm like man

48:46

. I wish that was mine . Well

48:48

, kate , this has been . You've been so generous with your

48:50

time . I'm going to put you on the spot with

48:52

one more question , actually two . Let

48:54

me ask you this . One first Team size . We didn't

48:57

, we didn't cover that . Is there a

48:59

team that's too small or too big ? No

49:02

, okay . So teams of any

49:04

size . You want them , you can help them

49:06

, love it . So here's

49:08

my put you on the spot question . I would love to have

49:10

you back on and talk about

49:12

your path as a

49:14

co-founder with three other

49:16

co-founders , I think and now

49:19

you're the CEO . But that is a journey

49:21

that I think a lot of people would be interested in , because that's

49:23

a hard thing to navigate . That's a lot of

49:25

, that's a lot of chiefs , and not

49:28

everyone does that effectively . So I'd love to

49:30

have that conversation too , because , as I'm sure

49:32

you know , having started your own business , now

49:34

people like say

49:36

the same thing to you that they have to me for years I want

49:39

to do that , I want to go on my own , I want to and there's pros

49:41

and cons of that , there's pitfalls . It's

49:43

not as . It's not as rosy as some people

49:45

think . So can you come back

49:47

on at some point and have that conversation

49:50

?

49:50

I would absolutely love to . I'll say say briefly well

49:54

, my co , one of my co-founders , is my old boss

49:56

and now technically he reports

49:59

to me .

50:00

Nice , very nice .

50:01

Yeah , it is interesting . Yeah , I would

50:04

love to to talk about it . I never expected

50:06

to do this , so

50:08

so , yeah , I would love to to to chat about

50:10

the path and and how it came to be . And

50:12

then , lastly , on team size , something that we

50:15

talk about a lot in teaming , which is we've

50:17

architected teaming in such a way where

50:19

the team is private

50:22

. So , like , the most important

50:24

thing between relationships and the group

50:26

dynamic is trust . Right , do I trust this

50:28

person and do I trust this group ? And

50:31

so there is no , there's no

50:33

company view in teaming . There's

50:36

no HR , no

50:38

admin , no IT that

50:40

can go in and see your stuff , and

50:42

that's been a that is a massive

50:44

change that's going to need to happen in

50:46

enterprise software . Right , do we

50:48

expect that you know our

50:51

? Well ? I don't know if . Can our whole family see our Instagram

50:54

? Or our whole whole family see our Facebook ? Right now ? Like

50:57

, it's just , it's your , it's your profile ? Yes , it's

50:59

your team , and

51:01

so we team side

51:03

, you can have a team of any size , but

51:06

it's private to just the people on the team , like , people

51:08

outside the team can't

51:10

even see that the team exists when they

51:12

sign up for teaming Nice , and

51:14

so that's something that is foundational , right . So it

51:16

does change his group , like , if it's a team

51:18

of two like you , you know , you , me

51:21

and you it's it is going to be different

51:24

because there isn't group dynamics at play . If

51:26

there were 10 or 12 of us , that's

51:29

different , right . If there's 50

51:31

of us , that's , that's different . 150 . Have

51:33

you heard of Dunbar's number ? It's

51:36

, it's like from

51:39

the days of hunting

51:41

and gathering , where we can't know more than 150

51:44

people . Okay , okay . So

51:46

when a company gets like at 148

51:49

, everyone can know each other at 151

51:52

. Impossible , interesting .

51:54

Okay .

51:55

You know , truly like it's that stark

51:58

of a change and so so

52:00

like that's a different . You know you can

52:02

have a team of 150

52:04

people we have them but the

52:07

expectations and the dynamics are so

52:09

different . You know , that's sort of like a

52:11

technical answer but also a philosophical

52:13

answer that we try to help people to understand

52:15

as they onboard in teaming

52:17

that especially when your team grows

52:19

, the dynamic is going to change

52:21

. There will be new challenges and

52:24

same with contracting right there

52:26

there are layoffs or whatever . The dynamic

52:29

is going to change . There's going to be hard

52:31

things to work through , but you do it together

52:33

and that's the good thing and you'll have a private

52:35

space to actually do that .

52:37

That's so important because employees

52:39

need that outlet . They want that outlet

52:41

. They go public when they don't have a private space

52:43

to do it and no one no one wins with

52:46

that right Because it just it creates

52:48

. It's a bad scenario that

52:50

currently exists and you're solving

52:52

that . That's huge . That's

52:54

awesome . I love it . I

52:56

think you are so , kate , thank

52:58

you You're . We're going to put all your

53:00

contact information in the show notes . You're easy

53:03

to find on LinkedIn teamingcom

53:05

. Couldn't be easier . I love the domain

53:07

. You'll have to tell me later how you got that one . I

53:10

will say also we are .

53:11

We are in the process of rebranding , so teamingcom

53:14

will always go to our new domain , and

53:16

we don't have that yet , but it will be different

53:18

at some point . Okay , all right , we'll

53:20

get that out there , just in case someone goes to teamingcom

53:23

in the future and it's different , it's still

53:25

us , but different .

53:27

All right , we'll be on standby to see it . We look

53:29

forward to it and I'm excited to see everything you're going

53:31

to do , and I'm now going to be talking to my

53:33

CFO about how we we start to become

53:35

a customer too , because I think it just makes

53:37

sense . So I'm convinced and , like I said earlier

53:39

, everyone else has to be too after listening

53:42

to this . Okay , thank you .

53:43

Thank you so much . I really appreciate it . Thanks

53:45

for having me and I can't wait to come back .

53:47

You're , you're , you're committed , awesome , all

53:49

right , everyone , thanks for listening .