0:00

You're listening to the Hire Calling podcast . I'm Pete Newsome

0:02

, and my guest today is Sioux Logan , founder

0:04

and president of RedStream Technology

0:06

. Sioux , how are you today ? I'm fine

0:09

, hi Pete , it is so nice

0:11

to have you . We've been friends

0:13

and colleagues for

0:15

what ? Four , five years now

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, and finally , here we are getting a chance to

0:19

talk on camera about technical recruiting today .

0:22

This is so fun . I love it .

0:24

Well , thanks for doing it . So RedStream , your company

0:26

, is headquartered in Manhattan . Why don't you just

0:28

if you would just take a minute to introduce

0:30

your background and tell us a little bit

0:32

about RedStream ?

0:34

Yeah , so I started

0:36

the company in 2007 . I

0:38

had been , I started my career as a technical

0:40

recruiter and then I moved into account

0:42

management and did business

0:44

all over the New York City

0:47

state , dry state area , New Jersey

0:49

, Connecticut . My client

0:51

base consisted of financial services

0:53

companies . It consists of big management

0:56

consulting , a lot of smattering

0:59

of other other flavors

1:01

genres , and

1:03

in 2007

1:05

, I just thought I needed a change and I needed

1:08

to try it on my own

1:10

. So I left my job . I sat

1:12

down in a second bedroom of my freezing

1:14

cold apartment in February , practically

1:17

wearing gloves , and I sat in front of a blank

1:19

screen and said , okay , it's time

1:21

to mind my non-compete

1:23

and dredge up new business . So

1:26

it took about . I had

1:28

to write out a non-compete and

1:30

I had to cold call and I had to do

1:32

all the really good old behavior that

1:34

. You know what that's like . Calling people

1:37

was prior to the days of LinkedIn

1:39

, so you had to try

1:41

and get phone numbers for people and call people

1:43

and make people to meet with you . But

1:45

after about a year I had hired

1:47

a first employee and we started

1:50

opening new business and clients

1:52

were good to me and introduced me to their teams

1:54

. And here we are , 17 years later

1:56

.

1:57

That's wonderful . Congratulations on that . I know

2:00

what a big step that is

2:02

. I'm curious , though what was ? Was there a catalyst

2:04

for you deciding to to take

2:06

the plunge initially , or was it something you thought about

2:09

doing for a long time ?

2:10

No , I actually always said

2:13

I would never own my own business . My dad

2:15

owned a dairy distribution business when I was

2:17

growing up and he worked and he was up

2:19

really early in the morning , came home late , he worked weekends

2:22

, and so I said , oh , I would actually never

2:24

, never , never , own a business . And

2:26

when I was

2:28

, a lot of stuff has changed . You with my client

2:30

base . It was the end of 2006

2:32

. And I needed to

2:34

recreate a

2:36

client base that the company I was working

2:39

for , industry , had changed

2:41

and we were going to lose one of our big clients potentially

2:43

. And I got up every day and I went to work

2:45

and I said I really

2:48

need to recreate myself , I really need

2:51

to make some cold calls , I need to find new business

2:53

. And I couldn't do it , pete . I just I love

2:55

the people I worked with . I worked with some of the greatest people

2:57

I've ever worked with in my career , but

2:59

I couldn't make myself do

3:01

it . And one day it

3:03

just seemed clear to me that the

3:06

only thing that I could get excited about

3:08

was to do it all over again . And

3:10

you know how terrifying that is to start a company

3:12

. You have no back office , you don't have no recruiting

3:15

team , you can't take your clients with

3:17

you because you have a non compete . When

3:20

I did decide to do it

3:22

, it was the most freeing

3:25

, exciting thing I'd ever

3:28

decided to do in

3:30

my entire career . I mean , it really

3:32

was . Then I have a funny story for you

3:34

the when I

3:36

decided to leave my company

3:38

, I came in the next . I decided on a weekend

3:40

, that I came in the next Monday and

3:43

I hit seeing . You remember the movie Borat .

3:45

Of course .

3:46

I had been to the movies and the people knew

3:48

that I was a crazy workaholic and I was really serious

3:50

and all that stuff and telling my coworkers that . I had been to

3:53

see the movie Borat and they're like , huh

3:55

, that's really interesting . And later in the day , when

3:57

I announced that I was leaving , they

3:59

were like now I get why you went

4:01

to the movies to see Borat , that's so not

4:03

you . You did something fun and anyway

4:06

so that was it .

4:08

You're great . You can blame or thank Borat

4:10

.

4:11

Borat's responsible for me doing this

4:14

.

4:14

I'm sure you've had this thought , like I have over the years , that

4:16

some of the biggest things you could do

4:18

in life having a child , getting

4:21

married , your profession , starting

4:23

a job there's no roadmap for it and

4:26

the world doesn't really encourage

4:28

you to go out on your own . It's

4:30

kind of just a secret thing that you have

4:32

to figure out on your own by taking the step

4:35

. It's like jumping out of the plane and then figuring out

4:37

how to work a parachute Right .

4:38

Yeah , that is true . Well , I

4:40

would tell you also , Peter , there were a lot of people

4:43

. I had a couple of months from the time

4:45

I left my job and I started actually started the company

4:47

. I was keeping a little bit private about what

4:49

I was going to do and when I told

4:51

people , I cannot tell you how

4:54

many people tried to scare me .

4:55

You don't want to do this .

4:57

You don't want to worry about the back office finance

4:59

. You don't want to worry about running payroll . You

5:02

don't want to do this . There's a lot of people

5:04

who not only is there not a roadmap , there's

5:06

also a lot of people who are really scared of what you and

5:08

I do .

5:09

Yes , and that's okay

5:11

, I understand . I'm not going to convince them otherwise

5:13

, right ? Because you and I both have learned

5:16

that it's scarier the thought

5:18

of taking the step is scarier than actually

5:20

taking it . At least it was for me .

5:23

And .

5:23

I think that's pretty common and I also

5:25

had those warnings

5:28

as well . A lot of fun

5:30

right Fear , uncertainty and doubt , Because

5:33

, again , the world doesn't really encourage you anyone

5:35

to do that right . It's not the safe choice

5:38

, and you also find

5:40

out who your friends are , don't you ? Oh

5:42

yeah , you do yeah that's

5:44

an interesting comment .

5:45

You do find out who your friends are . I

5:48

can't tell you how many

5:50

people , when I

5:52

was starting the business , actually took

5:54

me out to lunch . You know old

5:56

contacts , not clients , not

5:58

violating my non-compete but you know people that I

6:00

knew who I said I started my company

6:03

. I can't tell you how many people were super

6:05

kind and actually said oh , you

6:07

just started a business , Let me take you out to lunch . And

6:09

then there are a lot of people who disappear , Same

6:12

, Same .

6:13

Yes , and I never could have predicted

6:16

who would have done what in

6:18

that situation , and it was . It

6:20

was so eyeopening and some of the people who

6:22

I never would have expected any help

6:25

from went out of their way to

6:27

lend assistance , and others who I would

6:29

have thought would be given didn't

6:31

, didn't really step up , and so it's a fascinating

6:34

thing that you almost have to go

6:36

through that experience to know

6:38

what it feels like . You can't really describe

6:41

it , but here you are , here I am

6:43

, we did it .

6:45

And we're born up . Now we're not lonely . We have friends

6:47

in this business because we've been

6:49

at it long enough .

6:51

Yeah , it's funny that you would mention that word

6:53

, because lonely was

6:55

, was a great is a great way to describe

6:57

it , because one of the things that I missed

6:59

that was hardest for me about

7:01

going on my own was not

7:03

having a manager , not having anyone to turn

7:05

to and ask for advice or help , not

7:07

having a peer . Even that , that , that was

7:10

a very lonely feeling and that lasted for

7:12

years for me .

7:13

Yeah , same for years . And

7:16

now I think that's one

7:18

of the things I constantly , my

7:20

own way , fight against is who are

7:22

my peers ? What is my network ? That's

7:24

how you and I became friends , part of professional

7:26

networking group . Who is it that you trust to

7:28

give you advice ? Where do you find that ? Because you

7:30

can't go to a manager . The

7:33

buck stops with you and I are doing . That's right

7:35

.

7:36

That's right it does , and that's well . That's a good

7:38

thing . I like being an

7:40

employee too , into some degree

7:42

. It'd be nice to have days

7:44

where the buck stops with someone else , but

7:47

we're not going to solve that one today . We're

7:50

going to solve some of the

7:52

mystery , which I think is a lot more tangible

7:54

, of how to recruit , improve

7:56

your technical recruiting , and that's why I asked you

7:58

really to come on today , although I think we

8:00

should probably do an episode about going out on your

8:03

own to start a staffing company that , if you'll come

8:05

back , that would be , worth happening

8:07

. Yeah , we could probably grab a couple of our other

8:09

friends too who have similar

8:11

stories . But the the market is

8:13

evolving rapidly and I'm

8:15

hoping that we can share advice

8:18

and and guidance for those who are struggling

8:20

with , and want to improve at , technical recruiting

8:23

. But what do you think the state of the market

8:25

is right now ? How would you describe it ? It's , it's a

8:27

moving target of sorts .

8:28

The market's really weird . I'm

8:31

glad you asked me that question because I was just talking to

8:33

my recruiting team about that this morning . You

8:35

think back to four

8:38

years ago , right at this time , 2020

8:40

, when Pandemic

8:42

was just coming on , we didn't

8:44

know what was going to happen , and

8:46

so I would say , for March

8:49

on of 2020 , it

8:51

was gangbusters . Everybody needed technology

8:54

people , everybody needed recruiters

8:56

, everybody . As soon as we settled

8:58

into what the Business model

9:00

, the pandemic was going to be , technology

9:02

recruiting was gangbusters . It was

9:04

gangbusters all of 2021 , all

9:07

2020-2010

9:09

. Then it started to slow

9:11

Right and and I've seen

9:13

this before I was through 01 , the

9:15

dot-com crash . I was through 0809

9:18

, which you and I were talking about earlier , where the

9:20

financial services blew up mortgage

9:22

, world Mortgage back securities flew up

9:24

. This is , in a lot of ways

9:26

, no different . It's

9:28

not fun . Particularly , I

9:31

can look back to 01 or 0809 and I can

9:33

say , okay , that wasn't so fun , but

9:36

I , we came out of it . We're in that

9:38

same mode right now . It's

9:40

difficult . We have been . We slowed

9:43

. September of 2022

9:47

, all of 23 , was pretty

9:49

slow for us . The In

9:51

2023 , there were still we

9:54

still really , really hard to find candidates

9:57

. That is just started to shift

9:59

now , in the last couple of months

10:01

, it's getting a little bit easier . We have

10:03

a time period P where my

10:05

gold standard is you , hiring

10:08

manager , give me a job requirement . I'm gonna

10:10

present you at three very precise

10:12

, very targeted Candidates

10:15

. No one's perfect , but as close to perfect

10:17

as we're gonna get we're gonna get . I'm gonna send you three

10:19

. Sure , we're . In the

10:21

last few years I was lucky if I could

10:23

show two and I was really happy

10:25

when I had one , and that

10:28

is starting to ease a little

10:30

bit . We're coming back to the point where

10:32

we're able to show three candidates

10:34

, some of who will do the hybrid

10:36

model , whatever those intangibles that

10:38

we've been looking at for years with recruiting , where

10:41

all those things stick . But it's it's

10:43

a rough market right now .

10:45

It's a , it's , yeah , it's a market that's hard to pinpoint

10:47

exactly what's happening with it and

10:49

I think from Industry to

10:51

industry it varies greatly . Skill

10:54

set , skill set it varies greatly

10:56

market to market . Geographically it's

10:58

, it's really all over the board . I

11:01

I thought Pre-covid we

11:03

would always be in a candidate's market

11:05

and then , and then things shifted quickly

11:07

. Now I just I wouldn't

11:09

even know how to describe it , but what ? One of

11:11

the things it's that I think we're seeing a

11:14

lot and maybe you are too is it ? Candidates

11:16

aren't ? Well they're . They're hesitant

11:18

to change jobs because they've seen so

11:20

many people jump and then lose their job

11:23

because of a layoff , or Grass

11:25

wasn't as green as I thought . There were a lot

11:27

of huge salaries being thrown out post

11:29

COVID . As we know , that really affected the recruiting

11:31

industry in particular , and now

11:34

People are afraid of

11:36

. They don't , and that's the sentiment that

11:38

I latch on to the most the general Population

11:41

doesn't trust what's going on in the market

11:43

right now .

11:43

Yeah , and they shouldn't , because it's very

11:45

strange . I just I'm trying

11:47

to Trying to feed you

11:49

what it feels like from the candidate

11:51

perspective . You know we , when the

11:53

market is hot and Chugging

11:56

along like it was 2020-21-22

11:59

, you really had no idea

12:01

what candidates were gonna do . They had six options

12:03

. They had four offers on the table already

12:06

, right . At the same time , it's starting

12:09

to shift again . I don't think anybody

12:11

Feels like

12:14

there's nothing out there . I

12:16

also feel , pete , like there's a shift in

12:18

you . Look at all the people who work for big

12:20

tech companies your metas , your Google's

12:23

. They really staffed

12:25

up over the last few years and they

12:27

snapped up a lot of good , expensive

12:30

talent and now those

12:32

people are flooding on the market . But

12:34

then , where the jobs are , and

12:37

also you had your people going into VC

12:39

backed startups there's a lot

12:41

of interesting work going on out there

12:43

. That money is dried up so that

12:45

population pulls , also feeding out into

12:48

the , into the candidate pool . Well

12:50

, a lot of those people don't necessarily

12:52

want to go work for , let's say , a met life

12:54

or a JP Morgan . They

12:56

want maybe a tech company or

12:58

and I feel like we're in

13:00

this place where you go to LinkedIn

13:03

and you do scroll and you see the green

13:05

circles and you see so many people saying I've

13:07

been , I've sent out a hundred and fifty Applications

13:10

, I've had no interviews . There

13:12

is a lot of that . But there's also

13:15

this shift where I think companies

13:17

are starting to realize Okay , I need to

13:19

be a little more open to who I'm hiring

13:21

. I used to say that

13:23

, like hires , like financial services

13:26

companies hire finance people

13:28

out of financial services . Insurance

13:30

companies hire people out of a chair . They like

13:32

that because they like the domain knowledge right

13:35

, so they love that . We're

13:37

coming into a market where I feel

13:40

like , if we're going to make that that

13:42

leveling of Candidate

13:45

to job opening , we have to be more

13:47

open-minded . Our clients

13:49

have to be a little bit more open-minded . Okay

13:51

, that guy's out of Google . He

13:53

might do extremely well a JP Morgan . He might

13:55

be a great fit from the past . I didn't want to look at that

13:57

guy because he's only a tech company guy . So I think

13:59

we're coming to the next

14:01

six months , in my opinion , are going to be

14:04

a I I don't know

14:06

a reckoning

14:08

of Candidates

14:10

into what jobs are out there and I don't

14:12

think that's a bad thing .

14:14

No , it's , it's not . It's not . I don't think

14:16

it's bad either . I think it's uncertain and

14:18

and hard to plan , and

14:20

that's that's where I think you know

14:23

, individuals are struggling , companies are struggling

14:25

, both Companies like ours

14:27

who are doing the staffing , but also our clients

14:30

are trying to read the tea leaves

14:32

, whether it's what they can

14:34

expect from interest rates and expect the

14:36

election and all that's surrounding that . I

14:38

mean this is , you know , global war

14:40

is going on . I mean there are so

14:43

many things to Wonder

14:45

and worry about right now . Unfortunately

14:48

, that means you know , indecision a lot

14:51

, and that's what . That's what that's

14:53

bad for us , right ? We

14:55

don't want that . We want you confidence

14:57

in the market , so it seems to be

14:59

trending right . Some of the numbers are

15:01

good . I look at the employment

15:03

data constantly , but

15:06

right now it seems to be getting a little bit better , albeit

15:08

slowly . Unemployment

15:10

still large . Inflation is still a big

15:12

problem . That's not , I don't

15:14

think , is going to go away anytime soon

15:17

. So I think our clients

15:19

are going to everyone's going to need to start increasing

15:22

salaries more . Are you seeing that up

15:25

in New York yet ? Are you

15:27

seeing prices or salaries rates going

15:29

up yet ?

15:29

No , I'm not . I you know and I

15:31

can give you historical . I

15:34

have my own historical anecdotal

15:36

evidence in my brain . So it

15:38

was a terrible year in New York that lasted

15:41

into two . It started in 08, . 09

15:43

was terrible . 2010 was bad

15:45

. By midway through 2011

15:49

, we had a massive job

15:51

swap in New York city and all the people

15:53

in financial services who had not

15:55

been bonus for a couple of years because the market

15:57

was terrible . People lost jobs , whatever . There

16:00

was a massive job swap . People

16:02

moved all over industries , but that , if you

16:04

think about it , that's two years

16:06

out from the bottom of

16:09

the market . We're not there yet and

16:11

if history tells us anything , we're

16:13

not there yet . So I

16:16

think 2024 is not

16:18

going to necessarily be a great year

16:20

for us .

16:21

Well , you were at the same conference . I was

16:23

back in November , where we heard a

16:25

well-known economist speaking about

16:27

the year and said that it's . His prediction

16:29

was that things weren't going to pick back up

16:32

until the very end of the year , and

16:34

I think the conference was in November . He said about

16:36

a year from now . So we're still

16:38

.

16:39

We still have a long road ahead and yeah

16:41

, yeah , but I want to

16:43

ask in this can we go back to the salary thing for a second

16:45

? So are you feeling

16:48

like salaries dipped in

16:50

the last year and so you're waiting for it to come

16:52

back ?

16:53

I think there's a normalization

16:55

that's going on right now and that's

16:57

a struggle because every company is

16:59

looking considers that to be something different

17:02

for their situation . So post COVID , we saw

17:04

a lot of unnatural hiring big

17:06

salaries , limitless

17:09

flexibility on working conditions

17:11

, work wherever you want . We're happy to have anyone

17:13

that we can . We saw it in the recruiting

17:15

space . We saw it in technical

17:18

jobs alike . It almost , they almost mirrored

17:20

each other . Because there was so

17:22

much pent up demand , companies

17:25

were doing whatever they had to do

17:27

, and now we've

17:29

seen the pendulum swing back , which happens

17:31

, and so now everyone's

17:33

treating it differently . Who's making employees

17:35

work from home come back to the office

17:38

and who's not ? Who's paying a

17:41

higher salaries and who's not ? And

17:43

so , as you know , of course

17:45

, supply and demand ultimately will drive everything

17:48

, and that's what I

17:50

think is normalizing

17:53

right now . I think , yeah , the

17:55

return to office policy . I don't

17:57

know , but there's gonna be . The companies that are more flexible

18:00

are going to have a bigger candidate

18:02

pool . The companies that pay more are going to have

18:04

a bigger candidate pool . They

18:06

just have to acknowledge it . That's what

18:08

we haven't caught up to yet .

18:09

And I think normalization is the exact

18:12

word , that's the correct word for this . I

18:14

don't see that . So

18:17

I think that the candidate pool

18:19

is now just starting to realize

18:21

that they can't make endless demands , like

18:23

I think that in the last couple of months has just

18:25

happened and they're not expecting

18:27

the moon on salaries anymore , and

18:30

I don't feel like my clients have dropped their

18:32

salaries and rates . I definitely

18:34

don't see that . I see

18:36

that they're hanging tight where they were

18:38

, but they

18:40

have more candidates available to them and

18:42

candidates are a little bit more reasonable . They're

18:45

like oh yeah , I'll work for that .

18:47

And that's hard , though , to go backwards . We don't expect

18:50

to do that in our professional career . I had a

18:52

great conversation with a very experienced

18:54

recruiter a

18:56

couple of days ago and she

18:58

had gone to jump for just a giant

19:01

salary at one of the tech companies . And

19:03

she came back and now

19:05

is real , I have to go back to normal . Like

19:08

her feet are back on the ground , but that's hard

19:11

, I mean , and the number she was telling

19:13

me almost hard to believe . I mean , I believe

19:15

them because we saw it happening

19:17

, but almost 100%

19:19

increase from what she had been making

19:21

pre COVID , and now

19:24

it's coming back to normal . So that's the hard

19:26

part , because when

19:28

you start making a lot more money , you don't wanna go backwards

19:30

.

19:31

None of us . Yeah , that's

19:33

a stark reality . I'll paint

19:35

a picture here . I'll differentiate , that

19:38

is for sure . What's going on in recruiting In

19:40

technology land . It's not quite as

19:43

harsh for technical candidates

19:45

, for recruiters very

19:47

painful right now . We lost a

19:49

recruiter , pete , in July

19:51

of last year and if it had been the year before

19:54

and I posted a job on LinkedIn , I

19:56

would have had two applications , neither of which

19:58

would have been right . We had 1200

20:00

applications in 48 hours and

20:03

we work remote . My team is mainly remote

20:05

, so we got 1200

20:07

, it was posted as remote . We got 1200

20:09

applications in 48 hours for

20:11

a remote recruiting job .

20:13

That's how much has changed . Let's talk about

20:15

that for a minute . If you can . How

20:17

you recruit today , how anyone

20:19

recruits today , needs to shift

20:21

for that reason . What's

20:23

your take on the I call it

20:25

the one click apply disaster

20:28

that's happened out there . Where it's so

20:30

easy to it , doesn't matter how

20:33

thorough or detailed your job description

20:35

is , how many requirements you put on , people

20:37

are going to apply right and there's career

20:40

coaches out there saying apply

20:42

, apply , apply . I get it . I

20:44

understand why , but

20:46

it's making a bad source . What's

20:49

your take on all of that ? Is there a way to

20:51

solve it ?

20:51

Your recruiters is second brain

20:53

. So what happens as recruiters if you

20:56

go in ? You come in in the morning and

20:58

there's 600

21:00

resumes that came in overnight . You're

21:03

going to blink through , do , do , do

21:05

, do , do , do , do , do and you're going to get your first

21:07

20 , you're going to discard

21:10

100 , 200

21:12

out of the first 300 , but you're only going to make it partway

21:14

through those problems . So it's problematic

21:17

because resume number

21:19

422 could

21:21

be the perfect one out there and you're not going

21:23

to see it because you

21:25

know , and we can take this down with the line

21:28

of artificial intelligence and we do we

21:30

use all these tools that highlight

21:32

keywords to us and all that stuff . But it

21:34

is very problematic . The

21:37

volume because of the one

21:39

click application , the volume

21:41

we get is enormously problematic and

21:44

that could lead me down a whole conversation to talk about

21:46

fake resumes and all that also

21:48

nonsense that we have to

21:51

plow through when you're looking

21:53

through resumes and comparing against LinkedIn

21:55

profiles and all that stuff . It's

21:57

the volume is very difficult and

22:00

it's very fatiguing to recruiter .

22:02

It almost so I never

22:05

. We didn't used to run ads years ago . This

22:08

is old school me coming out , where the

22:10

only way you could run ads was to do it in

22:12

the newspaper . They're fast

22:14

in I don't know if you ever see weekly

22:16

that's what we started using back you

22:18

know contract employment weekly where you had to

22:20

have your hat in by Thursday

22:22

at noon or whatever it was and that it would come

22:24

out on Monday in the mail and it

22:26

was literally a magazine kind

22:29

of looking book of just jobs

22:31

that were available right In

22:33

the technical space at that time this was called

22:36

the engineering world back then and

22:39

I learned to recruit

22:41

by being proactive and

22:43

because I didn't know where the next resume was going

22:46

to come from , and I think that

22:48

made me a better recruiter than

22:50

I would be today , by having

22:52

a what seems like a limitless supply

22:54

of candidates but but like

22:57

you hit my favorite subject , Pete Newsom

22:59

. Oh really .

23:00

You hit my favorite subject . I'm serious , it's . You

23:03

just touched on my favorite subject . So I

23:05

started out as a technical recruiter in 1997

23:07

. We had a DOS blue

23:10

screen and someone had typed

23:12

in there COBOL , cics

23:14

, all these technical terms . We had the

23:16

ugliest monitor and

23:18

all this no good gooey , any of that stuff

23:20

, and we would sit there and we would

23:22

dial and we had no idea . We couldn't

23:24

see a resume . There were no pretty pictures

23:27

, there was no anything

23:29

about people , it was simply the most flat

23:31

. And it made me a great recruiter

23:34

because you didn't know and you know what

23:36

you got creative and I it was . I

23:38

started recruiting right before Y2K and

23:41

for those who are young or watching this , it

23:43

doesn't mean a fashion line , it doesn't mean a type

23:45

of clothing , it was actually digits

23:47

in the mainframe computer . I

23:50

asked my 14 year old the other day if she knew

23:52

what Y2K was and that follow

23:54

up boys version of Billie Joel's song

23:56

.

23:56

We didn't know Right , yeah , she's like

23:58

, do you ?

23:58

know Y2K . She's like a clothing . I know

24:00

I was like good answer , that's true , but

24:03

anyway , but we , we had a very

24:05

good habits because we had to . There

24:08

was a piece of recruiting . That's

24:10

faith . And and

24:12

it's the faith to go

24:14

into a database and call age , age

24:17

or aging resumes Right . That's

24:19

one of the things that makes it incredibly good recruiter

24:21

. I don't care what year it is , whether it's 1997

24:24

or 2024 . Great

24:26

recruiting habits are not just

24:29

waiting to see what comes in off a job post

24:31

. But I had a meeting with my recruiters

24:33

this morning and I said we have three main

24:35

tools by which we technical

24:37

recruit . We do our recruiting . One

24:39

is our database , which is 17

24:42

years worth of proprietary data . It

24:44

is resumes that we have screened

24:46

. We don't have tools that just punt all

24:49

kinds of resumes from job boards into

24:51

our database . Ours is a hundred thousand

24:53

people curated over 17 years

24:55

and , yeah , some of the emails will

24:57

be old , some of the phone numbers will be old , but

25:00

that's a . Your predecessors

25:02

here at Redstream did that homework

25:05

for you and it's proprietary

25:07

and it's a great place . But they

25:09

particularly like to see LinkedIn

25:12

and oh , and you know what I say too

25:14

, with Pete you can go to LinkedIn and

25:16

you can look when nobody by law

25:18

has to have , let's

25:21

say , jira or whatever

25:23

Salesforce on their LinkedIn

25:25

profile , but our recruiters

25:27

today they want to see those

25:29

right on it or they're not calling them and

25:32

they've lost that element of

25:34

faith where you have to have

25:37

just some , you know , just to spend your due

25:39

to . Maybe faith's not the right word , but you have to suspend

25:41

your disbelief . You have to just

25:43

go into a phone call not really knowing

25:46

. You can't see every last

25:48

detail of the person's experience . We didn't

25:50

have that years ago and it made us

25:52

be curious . It made us make phone

25:54

calls that we might not have

25:56

made otherwise and you find really good

25:59

talent that way . So you know , our tools

26:01

are our databases , they are LinkedIn

26:03

for sure . When you go and you we

26:05

all have LinkedIn recruiter licenses and

26:07

then we have the job post tools . You post

26:10

a job on LinkedIn , you post it on deed

26:12

. You get some good stuff that comes

26:14

in off of it but you got a lot of junk too

26:16

.

26:17

But I think yeah . For

26:19

the first 10 years

26:22

Four Corner was in business , I

26:24

don't think we posted jobs other

26:26

than pipeline positions that we just had

26:28

often , you know , openings

26:31

for Because I didn't

26:33

post jobs , because I didn't have time

26:35

to fill them that way , right . It

26:37

sounds convenient on the surface . You post a job

26:40

, applicants come to you . How wonderful is that ? Right

26:42

Uber Eats right to your doorstep . If I , you

26:44

know , I've used Uber Eats enough to know that it's wrong

26:46

a lot . My 18 year old , my high

26:48

school senior , ordered something on Saturday

26:51

night and they left

26:53

it in our mailbox . Then he did

26:55

it for 20 minutes later and

26:57

we kind of laughed about it because they said they left it in a safe

27:00

space , right , like , I guess ? Like safe .

27:02

That's safe .

27:03

Yeah safe .

27:04

The neighbors aren't taking it right .

27:05

That's safe . Safe for bugs ? Not at

27:07

all . But Henry the dog . Right , that's

27:09

right , that's right . But

27:12

if you go to the store , you see what you

27:14

want on the shelf , you grab it . You're going to get

27:16

it accurate 100% of the time , and

27:19

so I never thought

27:21

that posting ads . We used

27:23

to make fun of companies that would post ads . I

27:26

would be like they post ads , why would you want

27:28

to use them ? That's not how we recruit . We recruit

27:30

proactively , and one

27:33

of the way you learn to recruit the way I learned to recruit

27:35

is because you didn't know where that next resume was coming

27:37

from , so you had to value that resume

27:39

to a different degree . So

27:42

I'd say , okay , here's Sue Logan's

27:44

resume , and it only appears that Sue

27:46

has 50% of the qualifications

27:48

. But I'm not going to assume she doesn't

27:50

have the other 50% . I'm going to talk

27:53

to Sue and ask , because , even if you don't

27:55

, you're the kind of person who knows people

27:57

who do , and if you're not the right

27:59

fit for this job . I've invested time

28:02

in you , where now I'll

28:04

know what is the right fit for you and I'll

28:06

know when to call you . Next To

28:08

me , that's 101 .

28:10

Yeah , it is .

28:11

I don't think that happens very often these days .

28:14

Well you're again . This is my favorite

28:16

subject because I just did an analysis last

28:18

week of where all our placements from 2023

28:21

came from and I can see

28:23

by years in the business

28:25

how my recruiters

28:27

stack out with

28:29

that , how where their placements come from , and

28:32

my longest running recruiters

28:35

referrals because

28:37

they use the database . They send out a bunch of emails

28:39

to people that we know that we've interacted with

28:41

in the past . Some of those

28:43

people come back to us and

28:46

are viable candidates and sometimes they pass

28:48

them on to their friends and you get referrals

28:50

, you get word of mouth , and then my

28:52

most junior recruiters it's

28:54

a lot of it is waiting

28:56

to see what comes in off the post , or

28:59

waiting for stuff in off a job

29:01

post , or simply LinkedIn searching

29:03

where they can see everything that they think they

29:05

can see . Not foolproof .

29:08

Do you think that ? Because I would

29:10

say the same , but what you just described is very

29:12

similar to my experience

29:15

in the team at Four Corner . I

29:17

don't know that . Why

29:19

do you think the team doesn't trust the database

29:21

? Your internal database is much because

29:23

, for exactly what you described a few minutes ago

29:25

, the notes are in there from the past

29:28

. That's why we use an applicant tracking

29:30

system . If you're a third party recruiter

29:32

, it's not like a corporate

29:35

entity uses an ATS

29:37

right when . That's more about funneling and scheduling

29:39

and checking boxes for legal purposes

29:42

all of the things that the corporate , the talent

29:44

acquisition team , has to worry about . For

29:46

us , it's more about history and notes

29:48

and being able to go back to that hot

29:50

list of skill sets

29:52

so we don't have to start from scratch every

29:54

time . You said it perfectly you want

29:56

candidates who you already know . That's

30:00

the benefit of the database If you use it

30:02

correctly . Even though Pete

30:04

may not know the candidate directly

30:07

, sue knows the candidate . I

30:09

know them by association . That's the

30:11

benefit .

30:13

I had a conversation . We're recruiting for a scrum master

30:15

right now for one of our media clients

30:17

. I told our

30:19

recruiting team last week in

30:22

our applicant tracking system we have

30:24

a lot of scrum masters from about four

30:27

years ago . We , four or five years ago

30:29

, we did a lot of work for one of our clients , one

30:31

of my best recruiters . If you go and

30:33

you look at scrum masters under his name , he's

30:35

no longer working for us but you

30:37

look for his candidates who are scrum masters

30:39

, you're going to find stellar people because you

30:41

have an incredible eye for it . This

30:44

is our proprietary

30:47

knowledge . I think it's very

30:49

simple . I think people

30:51

today love their social media

30:53

and they love nothing more than to be able

30:55

to flip through . It says they're open to

30:57

work in not necessarily the green

30:59

circle , but in their LinkedIn profile . If

31:01

it says they're open to work and it changed

31:03

two weeks ago to open to work and

31:06

they can see their picture and they can see where

31:08

they've been working and they don't like

31:10

to have that suspending your disbelief

31:12

and going , okay , this resume is three years old

31:14

, I can't see what they've been doing . They want

31:17

to see what they've been doing

31:19

recently . Good recruiting is

31:21

not that . Good recruiting is having

31:23

some faith that those candidates that we've engaged

31:25

with in the past are worthwhile

31:27

. But it's really difficult to

31:30

get newer recruiters to see that because

31:32

they love to just go to LinkedIn and see

31:34

.

31:35

You said it earlier , being curious is

31:37

necessary . This

31:41

is an interesting conversation . It's a little bit

31:44

different direction than I think we

31:46

thought we'd go today , but it's so

31:48

necessary because to make

31:50

third-party recruiters better , to

31:52

make staffing recruiters better , they

31:56

really need to understand

31:58

that what seems quick on the surface with

32:00

applications right , a thousand

32:03

applicants great , I should definitely find

32:05

someone in there . That's like trying to find the needle

32:07

in a haystack , versus taking

32:10

a more targeted approach and talking

32:12

to the people who know that's

32:14

what's lost as much as anything else , where , if

32:16

I have a text relationship with you that

32:19

may be efficient but it's not going to be

32:21

deep , in

32:23

order to ask you for a referral or

32:26

in order to expect you to give me a referral , I can

32:28

ask at any time , right . In order to expect

32:31

you to give me one , I have to invest

32:33

some time in you first . I believe that and I think

32:35

you probably do too that I'm going to get

32:37

to know you and then , if we conclude

32:40

collectively that you're not a good fit for the job , of

32:43

course I'm going to ask you for a referral , right ? Why wouldn't

32:45

I ? I'd be crazy not to .

32:46

It's not a transactional business and I also

32:48

you touched on a really interesting thing about texting

32:51

. One of the other old school

32:53

behaviors is the phone call

32:55

, and I'm

32:57

adamant with my recruiters . You can never

33:00

discuss money with candidates

33:02

on a text because

33:04

it's not a discussion . You can't understand what

33:06

they're really striving for if you don't have

33:08

that conversation . You

33:11

can't shoot them a text and say where are you at with

33:13

other jobs you're interviewing for ? Are

33:15

you close on any offers and interviews ? They're

33:18

going to just say no , you need to have

33:20

conversations . We're very very good at what

33:22

we do , and we're good at what we do

33:24

because we have conversations with people

33:26

. It's the only way . It's the

33:28

most old school , but man do

33:31

I love the phone , pete .

33:32

I love the phone . It's so effective

33:34

. I mean , one of the things that I miss about

33:37

working in the office was being able to

33:39

hear just half the conversation with

33:41

new recruiters and you can just tell

33:44

once you hone your radar

33:49

for this . You can tell how a

33:51

conversation is going just

33:53

by where the pauses are , the tone

33:55

, the inflection , the answer

33:58

to a question is there a pause

34:00

or does it come openly and

34:03

directly Right ? You

34:06

have to hone it , it's not a natural

34:08

instinct . Some people pick it up better than

34:10

others . This is something I honed over

34:12

years and years and thousands and

34:14

thousands of conversations where I'm

34:17

sure , like me , you could hear 30 seconds of

34:19

a call and know whether a candidate is

34:22

interested , is going to bail

34:24

, is whatever . You

34:27

know . All you need right .

34:29

I do .

34:30

How can you keep I do ? Is there any way to

34:32

do that now

34:34

that we're virtual ?

34:36

Well , one of the nice things about choosing to go

34:38

on camera with people too , is you

34:40

can really see the reaction . That's

34:42

also a nice thing , but

34:44

if you're just communicating via email

34:46

and text with your candidates , it's not enough

34:49

. It's not going to get you what you need .

34:51

And I'm glad you said that , because that's something

34:53

I'm going to bookmark , because that's important

34:55

, that's a quote

34:57

, right , that's what we need . So

35:00

what advice , then , would you give to

35:02

your new recruiter today ? Let's

35:04

talk about that a little bit , because we're sharing

35:06

some of these things and I want to

35:09

make this our episode , now that we're

35:11

going to focus on where

35:14

Hello Б only new recruiter , if you're starting out

35:16

, what are the core things

35:18

that a young recruiter , someone

35:20

new to the space , really needs to

35:23

know that can help them be better

35:25

than their peers right now ?

35:27

I have such a laundry list . Let

35:29

me think first . Number one

35:32

is you need to listen to more experienced

35:34

recruiters on the phone because

35:36

you need to learn how they ask questions

35:39

with nuance . Like in

35:42

New York , we can't ask salaries

35:44

, we can't ask what you're currently making . By law

35:46

we can't ask that . It's like that in a lot of places in

35:48

the country . So we're working

35:50

on a role right now where we want to ascertain

35:53

if people are working

35:56

on a base salary plus bonus , and so

35:58

I might , with my years of experience

36:00

, say to you I'm going to ask you a couple of questions

36:02

about compensation . Let me state here

36:04

that I'm not asking you what you're currently making

36:07

. I'm going to ask you what

36:09

is your target base salary

36:11

and

36:15

are you bonus eligible ? That's

36:18

language . That's number one

36:20

, legal . Number two correct . Number

36:23

three non-intimidating

36:25

it's what's your target base salary

36:27

? And in your next role

36:29

this role is not bonus

36:31

eligible Is the role you're in now , is it currently

36:34

bonus eligible ? So we need to understand

36:36

how we work with somebody to construct with

36:38

their new employer a compensation package

36:41

that works . But you don't know

36:43

how to ask those questions

36:45

if you don't know anything about compensation

36:48

. So that's number one spending

36:50

time with more experienced recruiters

36:52

to learn language about around

36:54

that . Or when you're talking about

36:57

consulting I am looking for

36:59

$80 an hour . The candidate says I'm looking

37:01

for $80 an hour and you say , ok

37:03

, are you at all flexible on that ? My first

37:05

boss in the industry taught me to say are you

37:07

flexible ? If I get a job that's

37:09

only going to pay $70 an hour , should

37:12

I call you for that ? And now you start to

37:14

understand where they are in their continuum

37:16

of what's important on compensation

37:18

. Well , I might . If it's close to home

37:21

, maybe I'll work for $70 an hour . Then

37:23

you start eliciting information from

37:25

them . So number one for me would be sitting

37:27

with people with more experience . Number two

37:30

learn to use your applicant tracking system

37:32

. Going back to the conversation we had a little

37:34

while ago , your applicant tracking system

37:36

has notes on candidates that

37:38

might have been in there for 10 years . Flip

37:40

back and look at them . What happened

37:42

with it ? You saw ? You can see . Our

37:45

app , ats , has what

37:47

jobs they were submitted to in the past . Zip down

37:49

, have a look . Ok , we've worked with

37:51

them five different times in the last six years

37:53

. That might be a good candidate to re-look

37:55

at . So that's number

37:57

two . Number three in technology

38:00

learn what

38:02

a fake resume looks like . Big

38:04

one , learn what it looks like

38:06

. Go into LinkedIn

38:08

, pull up , see what your their

38:11

profile was created . Was it in 2023

38:13

? Probably not , and they have 16

38:16

years of experience . Probably not for real

38:18

. Should probably pass on that person . Have a

38:20

secret methodology . Talk

38:22

to you about if you have time .

38:25

OK , won't be secret if you share

38:27

it .

38:27

It's not going to be secret , but I'm going to put

38:29

this out into recruiter land .

38:31

OK .

38:32

You know , malcolm Gladwell , the writer

38:34

.

38:35

Yeah , so every read his book , because he has

38:37

books behind him , right behind you in the shelves

38:39

.

38:39

Did you ever read Blink ?

38:40

I did yes .

38:41

So Blink came out Pete the year that

38:43

I started Redstream and Blink was

38:45

a very pivotal book for me and

38:48

I teach my recruiters

38:51

to Blink at resumes

38:53

. You know we go back to earlier talking

38:55

about looking through 1,100 resumes

38:58

. Recruiters' brains

39:01

get fatigued very quickly because

39:04

they want to look at them and they want to

39:06

particularly newer recruiters they need

39:08

to read all the content .

39:10

Right , their brains are going .

39:12

I don't understand any of that . I'm not technical

39:14

. I must read every line of it . I

39:16

don't read resumes when I'm processing

39:19

them , so Gladwell's concept

39:22

of Blink is the best

39:24

. Decision makers are people who hone

39:26

their ability to look at something and

39:29

extract information . That's

39:31

really important , and what I teach

39:33

my recruiters to do is I

39:35

Blink at it , I look at their job

39:37

and so , OK , let me preface it . I'm

39:40

looking for a technical writer with

39:42

a solid amount of experience I don't

39:44

like to talk years of experience , but a solid amount

39:46

of experience who they

39:48

preferably have worked on AI projects

39:50

and they interface with developers

39:52

, product owners , technical people . That's

39:55

what I'm going into looking at these resumes for

39:57

, You're going to look at the job

40:00

title , the company name and the dates

40:02

the job title , the company name and the dates

40:04

. Job title , company name , dates , boom

40:06

. Maybe their education

40:08

is relevant to whatever . But if you

40:10

do that Blink , you're

40:13

quick to see OK , oh

40:15

wait , that person's actually only been a

40:17

technical writer for six

40:19

months , but all the jobs

40:21

before were teaching

40:23

pre-K , right , I

40:25

mean . And then how the question becomes how

40:28

did you get to be a technical writer and

40:30

is that person going to have , with six months of experience

40:32

, going to have enough experience to

40:34

work for your client . The answer is no , but

40:37

an inexperienced recruiter is going

40:39

to go oh wow , but this person actually

40:41

has AI . They have AI , they

40:44

were a tech writer with AI , so they're

40:46

right , whereas they're not seeing

40:48

the whole picture . They're not seeing

40:50

it . So it's a technique

40:52

that I teach my recruiters you can

40:54

ingest and

40:57

process a lot more information

40:59

in a lot shorter time than you think you can . A lot

41:01

of very useful information if

41:03

you hone that Blink skill .

41:06

I love it . That's great , and you know what's

41:08

so great about it , sue , and I'm going to use this

41:10

, if you don't mind , or for

41:12

job seekers as well , because I think

41:14

that is who needs to know that

41:16

. That is how a good recruiter looks at a

41:18

resume . I've never explained it that

41:20

way . You have that's such a great

41:22

way to look at it . But the premise is the

41:25

same . I talk about reading headlines . You're

41:28

in a checkout line at the grocery

41:30

store and you see People Magazine or whatever

41:32

the magazines are today . I'm probably dating myself

41:34

. I don't even know if people still publish as a brand

41:37

.

41:37

I think it does .

41:37

They put the big headlines because they want to

41:39

grab your attention . So the message

41:42

I always give the candidates is

41:44

make it easy for

41:46

the recruiter to know who you are and what you do , and if

41:49

you create a resume with that in mind , all the

41:51

other garbage that you see is

41:53

really irrelevant , because that is

41:55

how a good recruiter looks at a resume and

41:58

as much as anything else . That's all

42:00

the time you have to look at a resume . You

42:02

can't you don't read someone's paragraph

42:04

of what they you know their life story or

42:07

their education , you may

42:09

? I mean once you're out of school for some short

42:11

period of time , right ? Who cares ? There's no cares , right ? But

42:15

you look at the highlights and that's what

42:17

you just described . I love it .

42:19

But that is such good advice . I advise candidates

42:21

the very same thing . When I'm working with candidates

42:24

who are and I get referred a lot of people and I'll

42:26

go through their resume and I said

42:28

to somebody very recently I'm bogged

42:30

down , I can't read it , I can't process

42:33

it . We need to reformat your resume because

42:35

it's so text heavy that

42:37

I don't know what you do . And if I don't

42:39

know what you do , boom you

42:41

know one of the smartest people I know but boom , it goes

42:43

in the delete file because I can't process

42:46

it . And we get a lot of heat

42:48

for we being people

42:51

in our profession . We get a lot of heat for

42:53

not being courteous and respectful and

42:55

not all these things . The

42:57

volume of information we

42:59

process in a single week is

43:02

very high and

43:04

, like you said before , if you post a job , you

43:06

get thousands of resumes

43:09

and you can't do justice to it all

43:11

and so and that's what people

43:13

don't realize .

43:14

And this sounds harsh . This is going

43:17

to sound harsh . We're not paid for

43:19

that right . We're paid on

43:21

behalf of clients on

43:23

, nearly in every case , on a contingency

43:26

basis , meaning we're working

43:28

for free until we deliver the candidate

43:30

they're going to hire . One candidate

43:33

, which means and this is the harsh

43:35

part every moment we spend

43:37

on every other candidate is a waste of time . Now

43:40

we think bigger , we think farther

43:42

ahead than that . But it's

43:44

not our job . We don't find jobs

43:46

for people . We find people for jobs , and

43:49

I think people who aren't familiar

43:51

with our industry anyone listening

43:53

to this , hopefully is that that's

43:55

how we operate . But I think

43:57

a lot of candidates don't realize

43:59

that . They think well , the recruiter is there

44:01

to help me only to the degree that

44:04

it helps himself . And does that sound

44:06

kind of crude and crass ? Yeah , maybe

44:08

, but it is a reality of the industry that

44:10

we're in . Or you can hire

44:12

a career coach , and I don't . That's

44:15

not necessary for many people , but

44:17

it is an option to pay someone

44:19

to give you attention . That's not

44:21

the job of a third party recruiter . Like our

44:24

staffing recruiter , we're working on

44:26

our clients' behalf .

44:27

Yeah . Yeah , I don't think it's harsh

44:29

because I come from the same side of the business as you

44:32

. If I looked at everything

44:34

that came through and spoke to every single person

44:36

, I wouldn't have a business .

44:38

Yeah , if one of your recruiters tried to

44:40

go through a thousand resumes for

44:43

one job , you would A you'd

44:45

lose a job right to your competitor or

44:47

your client would get tired of waiting

44:49

. Very quickly you would fail

44:51

and that's a . It's

44:54

frustrating because I know

44:56

how the job seekers perceive

44:59

it , because we

45:01

spend a lot of time thinking about them too , but

45:03

it's not ours to fix right

45:05

. We don't have the ability to fix that .

45:07

No , and I'll tell you from a timing perspective

45:10

that that was an interesting comment from you we

45:13

are done . If

45:15

we don't come up with candidates within

45:17

two days for a consulting job , we're

45:19

shot out for it . We're really . I mean , it's

45:22

fast moving . They're off and running with people

45:24

from our competitors . We've got about two

45:27

days . And then if it's an FTE role

45:29

, direct hire role that you're trying to fill , you're

45:31

done in seven days probably . Yes

45:34

, seven , and that's probably five

45:36

business days of calendar week

45:38

. But five business days If you don't have candidates

45:40

in five business days , it's not going to happen

45:42

.

45:43

Yeah , Right , those numbers are perfect . I'd use the same

45:45

ones . And isn't it interesting how you and

45:47

I have talked about quite a few things in the past

45:49

45 minutes that we've never talked

45:51

about before , despite , because most

45:53

of the time we're together , we're

45:56

talking together in a group setting

45:58

and it's more high level . But

46:00

it's interesting how you started recruiting

46:02

in New York . I started

46:05

in Florida . Different kind of businesses

46:08

, different times . We weren't that far apart year-wise

46:10

I started in 93 . So

46:12

you were just a few years later . But

46:15

it's scary almost how similar our

46:17

thinking is as far as right and

46:19

true things that work , because

46:21

that's what works . And I

46:23

suspect if we went down the line and talked

46:25

about things like references and referrals

46:28

, we would have very similar perspective

46:31

and probably

46:33

frustration that it's not

46:35

easy to get buy-in

46:37

from our teams , even though

46:40

, which is not really what we're talking about right now . But I

46:42

know these things would be tried and true , but it's

46:44

hard to convince someone who

46:46

is used to instant gratification , right

46:49

.

46:49

Yes , yes .

46:51

You have to invest the time in the individual , and

46:54

I guess what we're really seeing is the right individuals

46:56

. Yes , the hard to find

46:58

they are indeed Okay . Well , I

47:01

want to do this . I

47:04

promised that we

47:06

wouldn't be on that long and we're already at almost 50

47:08

minutes and we're not even in connection with

47:10

all the things we're going to talk about . Would you

47:12

be willing to come back and continue

47:14

this talk ?

47:15

I'd love to . This is so much fun .

47:17

This is Well . It's crazy how fast the time

47:19

can go , isn't it ?

47:21

Yes , I didn't realize we were talking that long .

47:23

I am . I try to keep an eye on it . So

47:26

I don't If I say we're only going to

47:28

keep you for this long . I want to try to adhere to it , but

47:30

this has been great . And

47:32

so if you've listened to this long

47:35

and you're a new recruiter

47:37

or you're someone who hasn't really listened

47:40

to what we'll just call some old

47:42

, you know school tried and true ways

47:44

of doing things , I hope you've taken

47:46

notes and we'll put it in our show notes and we'll put

47:48

the transcript out there , because I

47:51

know how hard it has been for

47:53

someone to go out on their own which

47:55

Sioux did in the most competitive market in the world

47:58

. I'm in Orlando , florida . You

48:00

are in literally the most competitive market

48:02

in the world , in Manhattan , and succeeded

48:05

for a long time . So

48:07

you're listening to someone who really knows

48:09

their stuff and I've witnessed that firsthand for a number

48:11

of years . So this has been absolute

48:13

gold . Thank you so much for your time today

48:15

.

48:16

You're welcome . This was great , Pete . I'll talk to you

48:18

soon .

48:19

All right , thanks for listening everyone . We'll

48:21

be back soon . I'm going to make Sioux come back , so we'll

48:24

see you again .

48:26

Thanks , Pete .