0:12

Hello! And welcome to the last

0:14

episode of the History of African of

0:16

Velocity veggie gauge aphorism Futurama Son brought

0:19

to you with the support the King's

0:21

College London Blasio department and the Eller

0:23

New in Munich online at History of

0:25

philosophy.net Today's installment will be a final

0:27

chat with coauthor Chico Jeffers. And

0:30

which will look back at what we've

0:32

done and also look back at was

0:34

happening the last quarter century of Afrikaner

0:36

philosophy. A chicken. Nice

0:39

to talk to you this last time.

0:42

Yeah, it's a bittersweet moments that sure

0:44

I assure you that you're not done.

0:46

We've still got busted. I mean, I

0:48

know that we still have the books

0:51

to go and who knows I might

0:53

enough and with the expertise to be

0:55

interviewed by you on some the far

0:57

in the future topic of contemporary philosophy

1:00

when you actually get to the twentieth

1:02

century. Absolute. You

1:04

always be welcome. In if you don't have

1:06

Aca. Or had some

1:08

what we've done in the last hour energy

1:10

episodes I've lost like myself and we brought

1:13

a story up the the end of the

1:15

twentieth century. So let's say that

1:17

that brings us to the year two thousand. The.

1:19

As of Hundred and forty, one of the says it,

1:21

but. His. I am a fan. I

1:23

can't stand this is a hundred and body

1:25

to read here. we were has will return

1:28

it after that brings up to the year

1:30

two thousand and it just so happens that

1:32

that is the a very year that you

1:34

started out your university studies as an undergrad

1:36

of church. And I think that

1:38

you are already from the very beginning. you

1:41

had some interest in Afrikaner philosophy ago. I

1:43

don't know if you would have known to

1:45

call it that, right? So maybe you can

1:47

just tell us how from your point of

1:49

view things a lot. When. You

1:51

started out as a students coming

1:53

into the fields. Part of what

1:56

was interesting about. My entry

1:58

into the field. This is

2:00

the work done. By. People

2:03

and the last few

2:05

decades of the twentieth

2:07

century as that made

2:09

Afrikaner philosophy and national

2:11

the staying the I

2:13

was led to answer

2:15

philosophy. As. A whole because

2:17

of realizing that there was

2:20

this thing african of lawsuits

2:22

that existed and that one

2:24

could study of specialize in

2:27

as professional phosphorus so. I.

2:29

Didn't start my undergraduate degree

2:32

knowing that I wanted to

2:34

do Flossie. I had read

2:36

certain it's of past the

2:39

including you know, popular works

2:41

by the Simpsons and Philosophy

2:43

Science on themselves any sense

2:46

popularizing works on my own

2:48

time. And I I'd started

2:51

my degree in film, studying

2:53

film production. but by the

2:55

end of my second year

2:58

of undergrad, I realized. That

3:00

I didn't seem as of going

3:02

into some as an industry and

3:04

I did at that point know

3:06

that I was more interested in

3:08

the academic said things that is

3:10

in a when it suited me

3:12

in terms of mice to courses.

3:15

where am I still studies course

3:17

stripers. The stuff we were analyzing

3:19

things and stuff were in many

3:21

ways philosophy was in the background.

3:23

So does the stuff that was

3:25

attracting me when doing film studies

3:27

courses. So I

3:29

switched stream that there

3:32

were three streams in

3:34

the programs to person

3:36

screenwriting until studies and

3:38

sources streams to some

3:40

studies and I. Took.

3:43

A Philosophy as a Minor before

3:45

it actually even taken a course

3:47

in it. and the very first

3:49

philosophy course I took as I

3:52

recall, it was titled Existentialism Of

3:54

But it turned out to just

3:56

be Bad Lisa and it turned

3:58

out specifically to be. About

4:00

the spoke Zarathustra and I specify

4:02

either.i live in the with go

4:04

about their suit as rights my

4:06

first worse than that all about

4:09

by begin at the defend the

4:11

a year and. You. Know

4:13

the reason that I find it

4:15

with mentioning his pizzas. Thus spoke

4:17

Zarathustra and nice in general. the

4:19

have not been particularly important to

4:21

my writing and publication and things

4:24

of that nature. And yet doing

4:26

that course I knew that I

4:28

had made the right choice. And

4:30

this last seamless. what I enjoy.

4:32

It was a big confirmation that

4:35

I was on the right pass,

4:37

but. But. I say on the

4:39

right path. His confirmation that I really enjoyed

4:41

was the and that I was good at

4:43

it because of the mark I got. But.

4:46

There were still to put things that

4:48

needed to happen to me to make

4:50

me realize that Flossie was something I

4:52

would want to make a career. It.

4:55

And. It's significance that

4:57

at the time. That

5:00

I would have taken that course, I think I still

5:02

would have. Been. Better

5:04

able to see why the

5:07

degree and film studies with

5:09

makes me. Into. But

5:12

I would think of as a

5:14

productive community member them last be

5:16

that as say I probably had

5:18

thoughts of the search oh you

5:20

know I could be assume credit

5:22

and we need more black so

5:24

credits in the of people who

5:27

can you know organized showings of

5:29

Brazil's and bring attention to the

5:31

black contributions to cinema right? It

5:33

was still at that point easier

5:35

for me to see how the

5:37

terms of trying to advance my

5:40

community and. Be or be part

5:42

of advancing the community that stones

5:44

by the somehow still seemed more

5:46

relevant. Velocity seems to me to

5:48

be this thing that was fun

5:50

by didn't really know how in

5:52

terms of what mattered to me.

5:55

And. Choosing a vocation it still wasn't

5:57

clear to me the philosophy. The

6:00

abuse and this is why

6:02

Two things that happened for

6:04

slow and after philosophy course

6:06

that I was able to

6:08

take and a book that

6:10

I bought. Doors. Yes, he's

6:12

Aston Martin phosphorus seventeen conversation will

6:15

be talked about in the last

6:17

episode. Precisely. During

6:19

my third year of undergrad. Those

6:22

two things. Helps

6:24

to. Make be

6:26

realized that glossy wasn't just fun,

6:28

it was also the same and

6:30

that I could make a career

6:33

out of. And be

6:35

hopeful that doing so I

6:37

was doing something useful for

6:39

my community ends. It'll be

6:41

helpful as we start to

6:43

try and say something about

6:45

the twenty first century and

6:47

what happens after where we

6:49

trust sorry ass in previous

6:52

episode will be helpful. For

6:54

me to expand a bit

6:56

on those to those things,

6:58

the asking for speak first

7:00

and yes he spoke to

7:02

the asked him flossie courses

7:05

taught by a man named

7:07

a Stubby Moreira who is

7:09

still affects the member in

7:11

the philosophy department at York

7:13

University and stay Moreira. He's

7:15

from Spain and he tends

7:17

to work on grounds she

7:19

and veto some is the

7:21

Spaniards was on Italians and

7:23

he. Does.himself specialized in

7:26

terms of his research

7:28

in Aston or Afrikaner

7:31

Philosophy. However,

7:33

he taught. A course

7:36

on asked and Floss be

7:38

based on him having had

7:40

enough leaning interest in it.

7:42

A significant things know as

7:44

background for how and why

7:46

he ended up doing this

7:48

in the early two thousand

7:50

when it was still even

7:52

much rarer than it is

7:54

today born Interests. And

7:56

ours are us. As

7:59

not and. It's their. Morale

8:02

had gotten his tuesday from

8:04

the university in Tron, and

8:06

while he was graduate student in

8:09

the nineteen eighties, he had been

8:11

very friendly with. Charles

8:13

Mills who someone we discussed in

8:16

the previous episode. Who.

8:18

Was also doing is Dee Dee

8:20

at the university Drama and also

8:22

over the title, the elders who

8:24

we interviewed and the fuck outta

8:26

my language or list of it

8:28

I will the under and send

8:30

it I was down who was

8:33

as well and as is doing

8:35

at. University. Of Toronto in the

8:37

eighties they were all three. Gradually they were

8:39

all three men on the last them with

8:41

me after this connections in that sense as

8:44

well and is clear to me that that.

8:46

Experience. That he had in

8:48

the nineteen eighties helps to encourage

8:51

him. To talk to

8:53

discourse at the time that I was

8:55

in sake it you know in the

8:57

early two thousand And so that's one

8:59

way that I wanted to bring in

9:01

figures and we've already talked about. I

9:04

do wanna go to the alternate reality

9:06

where you the chemist on hiker and

9:08

washer and biography of Wu to be

9:10

device. Or on you know, that's a lovely

9:12

thought. as bad. As

9:14

you just have the it more. seriously. The other thing I want

9:17

to say as I think that's a real. Lesson.

9:19

For everybody because the hack that course that

9:21

on you as right shows the power of

9:23

being well of and teach outside your area.

9:25

But actually I think a lot of the

9:27

way that was a gets more diverse as

9:29

big as well. take the plunge and even

9:31

if they're not going to publish an error

9:33

and so on teacher. And with

9:36

these topics. And they

9:38

that's one hundred percent true. It's a

9:40

lesson of this you are well placed

9:43

to share with others because of the

9:45

fact that through the podcast you're doing

9:47

that at a club a grand scale.

9:49

So yes, I do think that this

9:51

course, being taught by a stab at

9:54

it's was an example of just that.

9:56

And one more thing that would be say that the

9:58

course is that I remember. Talking

10:01

with a fellow student and that those

10:03

didn't seem somewhat disappointed by so of

10:05

course material by and I got the

10:07

sense that they had expected to come

10:09

to this course on asked his last

10:11

the and here like eldest the asked

10:13

him conception of this and this the

10:15

intersection of that and the fact that

10:17

we were. Plunging. Into

10:19

the Medical a soft to debate the

10:21

twentieth century figures that we discuss particularly

10:24

to the end of part One. I

10:27

It's because that was. Such.

10:29

An important part of what he had

10:31

been. In. The twentieth century

10:33

by I thinks that he expected

10:36

to be getting more easily gift

10:38

wrapped asking conceptions of this or

10:41

that. Rather, Than. That.

10:43

The difficulty than the challenges of

10:45

the medical of soft the debate

10:47

and it was. Also. The

10:49

way in which I didn't relate to him

10:51

at all, And the way in which I

10:54

was thrilled with what was going on. That

10:56

was yet another confirmation that yeah baby and

10:58

developers and you should be doing business as

11:00

a career as a. Good. Coming

11:02

out soon Georgia his book. And

11:05

I fondly remember that when I eventually met

11:07

yeah see and told him about with the

11:09

book met to me he said that I

11:11

had made his year. That's what is extremely

11:14

important to me and. He

11:16

those may be that hard to

11:18

say which out of the to

11:21

mattered more features is there's the

11:23

complementary lesson. That. Is taught you

11:25

rights as nice. Take a steady Moreira teaching

11:27

that course to be saying a people even

11:29

if it's not your area if you make

11:32

it a bill still have that can be

11:34

very meaningful rights where we would of course

11:36

also agree that. People. For

11:38

whom it is their passion and

11:40

specialty, and at people for whom

11:42

it relates to their identity, those

11:45

are robots. And the importance

11:47

of role models is hard to overstate.

11:49

and I would say that the importance

11:51

and role models is hard to overstate

11:53

and my own case because that book.

11:56

African Americans lost or something conversations.

11:58

yeah I do think that that

12:00

to have more than anything else

12:03

and I would ask the yet

12:05

more even than the course made

12:07

me think that there are people

12:09

who have already did doing the

12:11

work to make Philosophy the a

12:13

place where we can discuss. Black.

12:15

Issues in a penetrating and

12:17

thoughtful manner, And thus he

12:19

gave me the sense that.

12:22

This. Is something that I can step into.

12:25

And continue participate in the work

12:27

that people have have already been

12:29

doing. And. Presumably was also relevant

12:31

that it's a collection of pieces by

12:34

a number of different phosphorus rights. I

12:36

should just up a book by one

12:38

person you mad about. Oh, here's an

12:41

interesting person to read their you're being

12:43

presented kind of with a whole field

12:45

of people, right? So it shows you.

12:48

It. Here's a field that you couldn't imagine yourself.

12:50

And right. Yeah. The to

12:52

be clear if not a bunch

12:54

of pieces by different people. I

12:57

wouldn't describe it that way, but

12:59

it's a bunch of different people

13:01

answering similar questions right? Yeah, seem

13:03

the if he if exactly they're

13:05

they're all interviews on that the

13:08

chapters or interviews and there are

13:10

certain basic questions that are repeated

13:12

in basically every interviews. but then

13:14

of course also this unique questions

13:17

related to the specialization of the

13:19

sacred question I It begins with.

13:21

As on the Davis and for an

13:23

hour west right? So it starts off

13:25

with these icons that I also would

13:27

have already known about and. That.

13:30

The restraining now for me to

13:32

read this book in which they

13:34

are being positioned as professional bosses

13:36

even though of course the two

13:38

of them in ways that we

13:40

mentioned in the podcast were outside

13:42

the discipline to varying degrees. We're

13:45

going ask for the rest himself.

13:47

What is t say about. It. And.

13:49

It is very right answer of course

13:52

as his shoe but the you know

13:54

with the cases in out for know

13:56

as you have someone who lose

13:58

their wake up. Founding moments so

14:01

I took a ski itar friends

14:03

and you know and he's going

14:05

to some these meetings of the

14:07

New York Society for back to

14:10

Los De he is in that

14:12

so sauce with for an issue

14:14

which is really happening to loss

14:16

things so land for know West

14:19

who is someone I admire very

14:21

much when he. Protests being

14:23

squeezed into the boxes Philosopher: All I

14:26

can do is take that as telling

14:28

me interesting thing about how he sees

14:30

the last, but not it actually telling

14:32

me whether I should see him as

14:35

a full Us if he truly is

14:37

One of the pioneers. Said he did

14:39

that work and he published books in

14:42

the nineteen eighties that made people think

14:44

in new and interesting ways about two

14:46

sons To matters in my view either

14:49

Philosopher and you know, he's blossomed who

14:51

managed to launch from the. That.

14:53

Particular. Subject. Position or

14:56

occupations you know ensue the role

14:58

of public intellectual and is someone

15:00

who somebody that role in a

15:03

unique and powerful manner. It's still

15:05

the case when I think about

15:07

times I have seen him speak

15:09

and person that is one of

15:12

the most electrifying speakers know that

15:14

I've seen professional. Frosty is in

15:16

that sense just one part of

15:19

him, but to me a very

15:21

foundation an important part. Of

15:23

coming out of that book and I guess further

15:25

reading you did It would have been pretty fair

15:27

to you who some of the big hitters worse?

15:30

I got West Davis app yes out live. Audience

15:32

of is not one of those

15:34

interviewed in the book but I

15:37

would have come across in during

15:39

this time around the time does

15:41

meaning that books and realizing that

15:43

I might wanna go into of

15:45

arsenal Glass be or what I

15:47

did search do actually was rights

15:50

to some of the people in

15:52

the book and that is something

15:54

that the Insects a Beastly mentioned

15:56

in our very best our thirties

15:58

and ck right. That's

16:01

right. So yeah, we had a little

16:03

reference there to the fact that. Of

16:05

I started to realize I wanted to

16:08

the baby do this is a clear

16:10

started to reach out to certain people

16:12

and. When. Have a seat was

16:14

Lucius Outlaw who was as I say

16:16

delighted by my name because he had

16:19

name's his and Ck and I and

16:21

is another diaspora teachers that was. You

16:23

know the beginning of a wonderful bond

16:25

between us and he has meant a

16:28

lot to me from then on. Another

16:30

person who is not in the book

16:32

but it's in the context of me

16:34

starting to right to people after having

16:36

read the book that I contacted him

16:39

would be Charles Knows. Sometimes

16:41

is none of the book but I

16:43

came across him in some of the

16:45

thing for us reading he has a

16:48

major impact on my boat net starting

16:50

at that hundred or two the period.

16:52

I mean people who know my story

16:54

may know that he was eventually my

16:57

dissertation adviser. There was a lot of

16:59

ways in which use important to my

17:01

legs from way back before it back

17:03

and some ways it's useful for me

17:06

to talk about because the again how

17:08

to show how the story where we

17:10

left. Enough continues. One.

17:13

Thing that we did in

17:15

that final episode is a

17:17

we described how you know

17:19

certain singers of Tambien backgrounds

17:22

were starting to really have

17:24

an impact. In the

17:26

nineteen nineties and we highlight

17:28

Charles but also lose Gordy.

17:31

And. As it's hundred and

17:33

thirty and response. Taliban's.

17:35

Reason. Comes out in

17:37

two thousand and I was reading

17:39

that book What? by the time

17:42

that I had realized I was

17:44

interested in doing for his career

17:46

it's main a big impact on

17:48

me. It gave me a model

17:50

for thinking about asked on a

17:53

philosophy and and some things that

17:55

we just briefly hint that was

17:57

the end of the last episode

17:59

but as it for someone who

18:01

has that was not trained as

18:04

a professional groceries strain of the

18:06

sociologists but he had a vision

18:08

for the building up of philosophy

18:10

as a profession that was very

18:12

meaningful and important for me and

18:15

one of the things that was

18:17

created in the wake of that

18:19

both making the impact that it

18:21

it was the Caribbean Philosophical Association.

18:24

Which Louis Gordon and As

18:26

It Henry are involved with

18:28

from the beginning as founding

18:30

members and organizers and as

18:32

It Happens. Charles

18:34

knows I met him on a

18:36

trip to Chicago. Well, I'm still

18:38

in that third year of my

18:40

undergraduate degree. By the time I

18:42

was in my last year, he.

18:45

Informed me about the first meeting

18:48

of the Caribbean for some association

18:50

which was to happen somewhere as

18:52

of two thousand and four or

18:55

maybe season. Spring. My

18:57

the didn't make it happen navy been

18:59

like May. and the reason that I

19:01

think about this is that because of

19:04

Charles letting me know that that Thompson's.

19:07

I will one. you'd be ready to be slightly jealous

19:09

of me. Because I'm

19:12

so letting me know about

19:14

that conference my very first.

19:17

Academic. Toss and. To

19:19

save a hotel on the

19:21

beach in Barbados it it

19:24

was a truly the the

19:26

best way to be introduced

19:28

to were academic constant thing

19:30

you've that I can imagine.

19:32

No wonder he went into

19:35

philosophy a. Bad.

19:38

Thing. That's true. That's

19:41

true. They're not all like that. As

19:43

soon as ours academic com this was

19:45

in Dayton, ally. Yet. Different

19:47

the you of the beaten by

19:49

Betas you know they against which

19:52

is no disrespect. to date he

19:54

left over yet known to the

19:57

the setting for my first academic

19:59

conference to email this seem like

20:01

a dream and I went I'm

20:04

in not yet graduated with a

20:06

powerful experience. I was on a

20:09

an author meets critics panel with

20:11

As It Henry So my first

20:13

experience of Back in an Profits

20:16

and I was an undergrad with

20:18

two other. tenure process is commenting

20:21

on tests but. And

20:23

it's a moment that means a

20:25

lot to me, especially in terms

20:27

of what has it. Models.

20:31

In that moment, Now I

20:33

will say that my critique of

20:35

the books was very much a

20:37

constructive critique of already said that

20:39

he very much influenced me and

20:41

so it was already a situation

20:43

and wish I was excited about

20:45

what he was doing with our

20:47

for Caribbean for speed and very

20:49

was on board with it. but

20:51

I did make this to teach

20:53

about how in the first chapter

20:55

book he tries to smooth over

20:57

some of the medical a fast

20:59

will debate some of the tensions

21:01

in terms of. How to retrieve

21:03

traditional asked avast the my

21:05

com the paper strategies of

21:07

Organization because that's the best.

21:10

Friends from him and I

21:12

talked about what it meant

21:14

to deemphasize conflict and taught

21:16

to station in order to

21:18

make should just laughed and

21:20

philosophy this very usable resource

21:22

for Africa the impossibly as

21:24

a new discourse and says

21:26

the concert his critique of

21:28

that type. But at

21:30

least they did is reducing the

21:32

town Was an elderly man who

21:34

are things had been a member

21:37

of the Seagull Society of Barbados

21:39

and so he has. He was

21:41

very excited Sunday at this conference

21:43

on Tambien philosophy this meeting of

21:45

the newly formed Serbian Post Office

21:47

of a sense but he was

21:49

he was of and a very

21:51

elderly man and he. Had.

21:53

Mistakenly introduced me as

21:55

Dr. Dr. She Kisses

21:57

and I corrected that.

22:00

At the time when I began to lick my

22:02

i don't even have a be a nine month

22:04

that are the that the I was on my

22:06

way of having a d A when I was

22:08

the she has served under the doctor will not

22:10

be appropriate title but then when as it. Was.

22:13

Responding to my city he made a

22:15

joke based on the way that they

22:18

said about it Alone in a was

22:20

gifted man states the right man as.

22:23

He. And he went on to like

22:25

concedes my entire cities know when

22:27

I know in a yeah and

22:29

the tide of noncombative. Truth

22:32

seeking. To teach

22:34

in session said can really affects

22:36

youths as someone just coming into

22:38

the fear of and was you're

22:40

seeing about the kind of seared

22:42

pursuit of that you would hope

22:44

that we have sponsors are always

22:46

try to maintain and a five

22:48

rest of my things reconstruct his

22:50

critique but nevertheless that meant a

22:52

lot to me. You.

22:55

Less than our say before I let

22:57

us do not crushing deaths and enjoy

22:59

doing on a trip down memory lane.

23:01

But and I have to have to

23:04

be especially thankful. To

23:06

charles again because I.

23:09

Had a girlfriend who had

23:12

come with me to Barbados

23:14

and see and a camcorder

23:16

and she recorded by Talk

23:18

Ends. In the

23:20

wake of the taught in a people

23:23

are saying nice things to me. This

23:25

undergrad seem to do very well on

23:27

this channel would be as in a

23:29

senior figures and I'm feeling a lot

23:32

of congratulating and then. When

23:34

I spoke with Charles, he said something like

23:37

those goods, You know we just need to

23:39

work on your positions now. And

23:41

in I didn't think much of

23:43

that in the mode and and

23:45

I went back to you know,

23:47

having conversations with people who seemed

23:49

extremely impressed with me you know.

23:51

But when I did eventually was

23:53

the recording of To Talk and

23:55

I saw myself. Barreling. Through

23:57

in a monitor center and.

24:00

Just the kind of the you

24:02

know what you'd expect release for

24:04

someone who's never presented before right?

24:06

This is my first time doing

24:08

this so if not it is

24:10

how bad a speaker I was

24:12

surprised that say but it's one

24:14

of those moments that makes me

24:17

fondly remember Charles who wishes and

24:19

it's not something you said and

24:21

the last of sense cause passed

24:23

away. Unfortunately it's well as years

24:25

ago now if it and it's

24:27

raining. So one

24:29

of my very fond memories of Charles

24:31

was the way that he. Had

24:34

my professionalization in mind that moment he

24:36

knew when he was talking about because

24:38

I went inside and given talking Berlin

24:40

and he was actually one of the

24:42

most riveting because I've ever seen at

24:44

a conference. In.

24:48

Gave me as desire to live up

24:50

to let he the sea and me

24:52

by and to not be satisfied with

24:55

it being impressive how young I was

24:57

but rather to see what's the next

24:59

step of improvement and as things that

25:01

I would like to say. About

25:04

my dissertation a that would be i

25:07

think also relevant some story but I

25:09

must first he want to or straight

25:11

to that are you have another question.

25:14

I did have a bit of more general

25:16

question. yeah so it's pretty clear that your

25:18

sense of through the players must the old

25:20

were not just the people we talk about

25:22

Martha professional philosophers blog posts are you know

25:24

people like were twenty and or a cast

25:27

and bt would have gotten to know about

25:29

them to have class actually but I'm wondering

25:31

what your son's was of the main philosophical

25:33

issues and debates. So obviously

25:35

the whole metaphors article saying like

25:38

often orientations. And. Was another

25:40

saying that was being debated a lot of

25:42

the time. The thing that we mention the

25:44

last episode about biological vs. socially constructed there

25:46

is of race was that kind of when.

25:49

You're. The coalescing or was that just

25:51

one many things that was being

25:53

discussed at the time. It is

25:56

one of many in an important

25:58

sense. But. It. There's.

26:01

A particularly important thing I'll say

26:03

that so in my father's house

26:05

passed and the faucet concerned as

26:08

a book by of beyond that

26:10

we mentioned in the previous of

26:12

so I would have read that's

26:15

around this time as well before

26:17

I even entered school. That puts

26:19

from Nineteen Ninety Two and a

26:22

happier if an interesting sager for

26:24

me to speeches I. I

26:27

think reacted. Very negatively

26:29

to my first reading that in

26:31

I don't think I ever doubted

26:34

that he was an interesting baker

26:36

by think I was paying the

26:38

by how wrong I still he

26:41

was sets in terms of the

26:43

ways that he was seeking to

26:45

push the idea that there are

26:48

no such things as races and.

26:51

He. Was awful at that's I'm

26:53

freezing at conception of racism according

26:55

to his. Must have

26:57

the ways that people think I'm pan

26:59

Africanism would be racist. And

27:02

so I very strongly against that.

27:04

So why would Pan Africanism be

27:06

racist on obvious dimmer? Why would

27:09

it be in danger? Yeah. He.

27:12

As that making this

27:14

distinction seen external racism

27:16

and internal racism around

27:18

this time where external

27:20

racism. And I

27:22

am going to say on this

27:25

memory so hopefully am I doing

27:27

eat any details wrong. But external

27:30

racists has preference for members of

27:32

their race on the basis of

27:34

external criteria. That is, for example,

27:37

criteria of out this or that

27:39

race is allegedly better than another

27:41

and so sort of what you'd

27:44

traditionally think of racism is going

27:46

to involve that external components, right?

27:49

The idea of breaking races on

27:51

a hierarchy. Of value.

27:54

As I recall the

27:56

in the contrast internal racism

27:58

involved preference. For.

28:01

Members of your own troops with

28:03

as not based. On.

28:06

The. Idea that your group is sincere. Years

28:08

for this or that. Read. That

28:11

we're better than and it's just me

28:14

or us exactly. So, something like that.

28:16

And so he. Argued that

28:18

both are morally traveling in or

28:20

even though in different ways and

28:22

even if we my food in

28:24

certain ways that is so racism

28:27

is more clearly terribly and so

28:29

on. And yeah so the way

28:31

that he was thinking of race

28:33

and racial identity at that time

28:35

as additional investment in. An

28:37

African isn't particularly in the racial

28:39

mode of thinking of it as

28:42

a commitment to the black world

28:44

or something of that nature. He

28:46

at that time had been doing

28:49

some arguments for this as investing

28:51

in a false id of race

28:53

itself and also adding a. Morally.

28:56

Some standard way of thinking about

28:58

who you should. Be. Cooperating

29:00

with them in allegiance with and

29:02

so on and so on. The

29:05

fact that I change too long

29:07

is vague enough. Innocent donations and

29:09

deaths are suspected child and intensive

29:11

and foods from my parents and

29:13

other aspects of Blair was raised.

29:16

Then. You know, I think

29:18

that that nationally made appia.

29:21

Someone. That I have problems with. If you look

29:23

at. Reviews from the time

29:25

and if you look even if you

29:28

know molest Assad they wrote about obvious

29:30

book and that you look at the

29:32

way that a number of figures as

29:34

signs are. Reacting. To obvious

29:36

but then you know you'll see some

29:38

of the the reactions that would be

29:41

similar to the one I had in

29:43

terms of his attempts to process the

29:45

way for nurses a brace and even

29:47

as we mentioned that he attempted to

29:50

uphold his father's and asked isn't it

29:52

was already something that he was working

29:54

out in a way that was meant

29:56

to push away from what he thought

29:59

when it's additional. Works

30:03

out humid days a radical

30:05

an article problems and that

30:07

is a fine We the

30:10

also start. Talking about when

30:12

I ended up doing that a station on and

30:14

how that. House same it

30:16

was happening in our

30:19

philosophy. But I do

30:21

want to. Before. I go further.

30:23

Certain. That to the. Origin.

30:26

Of your question right where you were wondering

30:28

if this race stuff was kind of like.

30:31

Just one among many things. sort of them.

30:33

Sort of like becoming the central deal or

30:35

whatever. Yeah, I think that it's know that

30:37

the only at some point in. Graduate.

30:40

School. When. I was

30:42

already pursuing a Phd when I think

30:44

I may be already had in mind

30:46

some of what I wanted to do

30:49

for the dissertation. The

30:51

like really starts to. Embrace

30:53

Philosophers race as like

30:55

an identity if I

30:57

could put it that

30:59

way. To something like the

31:02

same degree that I said Afrikaner philosophy

31:04

to be when I was here for

31:06

by it's and foods I'm saying that

31:08

you know for a few reasons to

31:10

was again sort of point out how

31:12

it's unique that I came along at

31:14

a time with so much of the

31:16

worst had been done that I could

31:18

take up a kind of lost the

31:21

as my niece and being in the

31:23

field. But

31:25

I also be enough to say

31:27

that it is remarkable that the

31:29

at the outlaw the bait but

31:31

we discussed in our previous s

31:33

in A was such an important

31:35

part of our philosophy of breasts

31:37

came to be a thing in

31:40

the way that it is in

31:42

among professional phosphorus today By it

31:44

was in that sense the interesting

31:46

outgrowth of. The

31:48

time of last the right Both of

31:51

them are looking back to do boy

31:53

and other people like Tommy Lot and

31:55

Bernard muscle and we mess and and

31:57

also someone we didn't mention that move.

32:00

It will be important for me to match now.

32:02

Robert, Getting William is. These

32:04

people are responding to Appia and

32:06

Outlaw in the have been getting

32:08

Williams. He wrote on both after

32:10

our was shortly after this to

32:12

pay his posts on one level.

32:14

This is a debate about how

32:16

best to understand two boys and

32:18

in that sense it is important

32:21

part of the tradition that we

32:23

can call off the of lawsuits

32:25

by the same time because race.

32:28

Me these sleeping in it. You. Know.

32:30

Talking. About Philosophy A race in the List of

32:32

Sedition. Acts

32:36

people like A Manual Caught

32:39

and other European figures of

32:41

those seventeenth and Eighteenth centuries

32:43

who were basically foundational in

32:45

terms of the idea of

32:47

race coming into being for

32:49

speed. But

32:51

then, sir, House

32:54

and obvious Reasons race

32:56

doesn't become this central

32:59

topic that. Are

33:02

talking about and the whiteness

33:04

of the disciplines as. Not

33:08

being asked to lock em on

33:10

it and bay and so. By

33:13

the time that Latvia and

33:15

outlaw and owners are tackling

33:17

this question of how to

33:20

understand two boys in the

33:22

nineteen eighties as professional. Philosophers,

33:24

then. It. Is

33:27

this opening A professional? philosophers start

33:29

taking race seriously in a way

33:31

that they have done before. I

33:34

think especially important philosophy is

33:36

not the same as or

33:39

a. Department.

33:41

Those necessarily efforts on a philosophy

33:43

that you know they did. It

33:45

is important that it's a field

33:47

where all of humanity is the

33:49

automatic focal points. Because the question

33:51

is, are all of us as

33:53

Humans divided into these groups that

33:55

are called races? What does that

33:57

mean and so on. And Science.

34:00

The man, it's important that should be

34:02

understood as just nationally a part of

34:04

African fauci, but I just think that

34:06

it's off was historically insist. That

34:09

the way that it came

34:11

into prominence is by debates

34:13

among our summers and wanted

34:15

to cause. He.

34:19

Asked his conception that aren't serious could

34:21

about the stall for some listeners. That.

34:24

They. Would think okay our our safford on

34:27

a philosophy about well we've been define

34:29

it as. Was. To be bound

34:31

up with the concerns of people from Africa

34:33

and the diaspora. And so

34:35

they would pick out. I see this as a kind

34:37

of lawsuits isn't defined in terms of race, right?

34:40

Freshly. Over. There

34:42

had been issues in the philosophy of

34:44

race. Coming up. Constantly.

34:48

There's been all kinds of other stuff

34:50

burst any now, feminine rights but avast

34:52

as a philosophy As you said, like

34:54

in L, a question of whether or

34:56

old and can count as passive bad

34:58

about race. Now so the two things

35:01

intersects. Very. Yes, But. They're

35:03

really not the same thing on

35:05

that stretch, right? And you can

35:07

say that it's an important part

35:09

of assignments and becomes that especially

35:12

important person after a certain point.

35:14

It says at a certain points

35:16

and you're talking about the modern

35:18

world and occasional the diaspora and

35:20

sox. Yes, it's true the from

35:23

you're going to have it as

35:25

it's necessarily recuperates concerns by it,

35:27

but it is not. Of course

35:29

I had a concern that is

35:31

central to let's. See what people

35:33

are doing in Ancient Egypt in

35:36

it would be good doing you

35:38

know insert the oral traditions the

35:40

realising it but I will. Add

35:42

to that pits as loses out

35:44

lots and so I think is

35:47

able to stress well in some

35:49

of his writing on at certain

35:52

philosophy. It remains the case. that's.

35:55

When they started to be a

35:57

debate among professional philosophers because asked.

36:00

Since we're going into the

36:02

fields, then it was. Even

36:05

when about stuff like. What

36:07

to make of our citizens?

36:09

It was even then necessarily

36:12

taking place with in. The

36:14

context of Africans having been

36:17

colonized. Ask him have a.

36:20

Bad. European institutions of

36:22

education as their ways

36:25

herbs advancing in a

36:27

colonial and postcolonial contacts

36:30

and the assumption. And.

36:34

Europeans therefore is floyd the day

36:36

I them faced with and that

36:39

they have to react against and

36:41

so even in that sense African

36:43

philosophy is you might say from

36:46

the start also that a crush.

36:49

Okay well let's come back to the question that

36:51

we have differed because the as there's probably still

36:53

waiting for know okay what was she can already

36:56

set as that's always the as being bad and

36:58

how it fits into the stores. The.

37:00

Yeah, that's right, part of let's. Say

37:03

to that he's d where

37:05

the people who had available to

37:08

me as a graduate student at

37:10

Northwestern at that time trials

37:12

knows. Don't come back into

37:14

story but it comes back into the

37:16

story mode to the me and my

37:19

work on the Thc that say when

37:21

I. Chose Northwestern as

37:23

that's a smoke do my Phd. He

37:26

and I was happy the i've come

37:28

to Chicago because he was and your

37:30

seats and we were glad that are

37:32

we going to be in same city?

37:35

To the to people who are working

37:37

with when I first arrived is sue

37:39

him on Bashir Genius who we had

37:41

on the podcast talking about. An

37:45

Islamic for Sign Africa

37:47

and. From. Getting

37:49

lights were a mess and he had

37:51

done his. Phd. I want

37:53

to see you in the early

37:56

eighties. he is that early on

37:58

wrote on the slugs and. So

38:00

that he had another side of the

38:02

that book is coming out. been or

38:04

vog at a San Francisco Ducks Hundred

38:07

available to those boots to ask for

38:09

example. but. But he

38:11

also some awesome still in the

38:13

nineteen eighties a be as the

38:16

so serious interest in two boys.

38:19

Through a membership John Yet or Bashir

38:21

as have fallen. By. So

38:23

the Seer. Were. Some

38:25

lot of things including the did

38:28

we interviewed him on his arm

38:30

Fast new sub Saharan Africa piece

38:32

from Senegal and so he said

38:34

even met Leopold say galore and

38:36

he arrived at the point of

38:39

wanting to write a book on

38:41

singer and so pissy or was

38:43

working on a boat those Wesley

38:45

published hardly afford said are saying

38:48

are. Loud as he

38:50

can. Some of the so loopholes

38:52

that are saying we're asking art

38:55

as Velocity. Bob

38:57

was working on a book which at

38:59

that time the working title of it

39:01

from something like contributions to the Critique

39:03

of what's Trump's it was I still

39:06

think of as an awesome sight of

39:08

but eventually it was renamed in the

39:10

shadow of Dubois Afro Modern political sparked

39:12

an American. For. Mrs. May already

39:14

know that I inside and it

39:17

up sampling issues. But so African

39:19

art as last be. Thing

39:22

or. Bird. Soon. And.

39:25

I'm forgetting the some fellow man

39:27

it's a but she has both.

39:29

Answer your was translated by me

39:31

and it's also something that I

39:34

talked about that was happiness. Now

39:36

for alongside I was really annoyed

39:38

that a copy editor and made

39:40

changes to my translation and before

39:42

it went into Prince and if

39:44

anyone told me they were reading

39:46

it I would ask them. The

39:48

email was just so I can

39:50

send them my list of a

39:52

Raza pounds and as bad as.

39:54

Added a new edition with very cool

39:56

towers. Well yeah, look up Sulemon Pursued

39:58

Zone? Yes asked? And. Lovely, the

40:00

corrections of the night and so I'm

40:02

now proud of this works but such

40:04

I fail to say. Was. The

40:06

Shivers Down Singer. And Bob

40:09

working on two boys. It. Became.

40:11

National for me to focus

40:13

on two boys and say

40:15

your in my dissertation and

40:18

so my dissertation com the

40:20

Black Tests coastal nationalism and

40:22

cosmopolitanism. Enough com philosophy. And

40:25

the first part of it

40:27

was probably historical with a

40:30

chapter on the boy's a

40:32

chapter on saying or and

40:34

preceding that a chapter. The

40:36

Germans loss for your hundred feet

40:38

and earth's food feasts ages. Some

40:40

of when I was talking about

40:42

him as.was the and the other

40:44

and form center of that for

40:46

settlers right? Learn some First time

40:48

Back then I was fascinated by

40:50

Edward and some maisie how as

40:53

they talked about it into stations

40:55

and he hadn't noticed before I

40:57

became even more impressed by the

40:59

importance of blinds and as we

41:01

did I work on this process

41:03

but I knew he was a

41:05

boy band. And so. The

41:08

first. Certainly. Last

41:12

last. Two

41:14

boys and thing. or. And then

41:17

the second half of the dissertation.

41:20

Was. Me tried to intervene in

41:22

to debates and I won't say. Anything.

41:25

About the fourth chapter, which. Was.

41:27

More interested in Anderson.

41:30

And temporary was avast on

41:32

my main target and as

41:35

chapter was. On Assembly.

41:38

And my name target in the

41:40

sister. Was on the

41:42

anthony Happy up! So appear

41:44

we've mentioned already the things

41:47

he did as the. Thousands

41:50

went on. He started on us

41:52

a lot on the topic of

41:54

optimism and lot of people are

41:56

know him for that. After. I

41:59

am. There's a way in which. A

42:02

theme of cosmopolitanism further reinforced

42:04

in certain ways to ways

42:06

that his work had been

42:09

about. Not divide yourselves by

42:11

race in password consists Tommy

42:13

Shelby who is at Harvard's

42:15

I was able to read

42:17

some articles that were leading

42:19

up to since Two Thousand

42:21

and Five Foot, We Who

42:24

Are Dark The Philosophical Foundation

42:26

supply solidarity of the will

42:28

to read some of. That

42:30

stuff, you know. And then when the

42:32

book came out itself a man, they

42:34

are settings. Absolutely one of. The.

42:36

Most important bus and Afrikaner philosophy

42:38

in the twenty first century house

42:41

to also cement his place as

42:43

last ran as a philosopher at

42:45

Harvard to this book is very

42:47

important because in a sense. Would

42:50

soundings doing. Was

42:53

looking back at the tradition. He

42:56

talked about month Delaney He

42:58

talks about. Two. Boys.

43:01

He. Looks at certain say is

43:03

you know from the nineteen

43:05

sixties but you have to

43:08

our best of the carmichael

43:10

it's cause persistence he me

43:12

visit the tradition and he's

43:14

in a sense I think

43:16

as a what do we

43:18

make of this idea of

43:20

glass solidarity nationalism. In

43:22

the wake of critiques like those that

43:24

Appia with offer it. And

43:27

the he argues in

43:30

the book that we

43:32

sit retain back solidarity.

43:35

And black nationalism as

43:37

an important parts of

43:40

struggle against anti bad

43:42

person. But. He

43:44

argued that in order to do

43:46

that in a way that the

43:48

best for such what we can

43:50

say about race and methods that

43:52

after original and and seats. The

43:55

to say that he responds to app

43:57

is t each of these cancers and.

44:00

Smith. And. Raised by saying

44:02

well, we need to jettison. Nationals

44:05

and we need to see. Black.

44:08

Nationalism is something that's

44:10

the as a conversion

44:12

censor political concerns that

44:14

makes by solidarity a

44:16

meaningful part of trying

44:18

to an anti black

44:21

person but. Backed. Off

44:23

of the idea that black people

44:25

just nationally for this group that

44:27

should see a purpose in solidarity

44:29

and as unified and sauce he

44:32

steps away from the idea that

44:34

by found any something eternal write

44:36

something that he question is in

44:38

the book bright and says that

44:40

it is for the political basis

44:42

of struggle and as for what

44:44

happens. When you'd see

44:47

Bruce, I mean maybe black people

44:49

continue to associate with each other.

44:51

Or maybe they don't you who?

44:53

nuts And so what I was

44:55

doing in my it's of chatter

44:57

where I was arguing for a.

45:00

Non essential was black awful

45:02

nationalism. Is what I

45:05

aim to are used before and

45:07

that's after I was responding to

45:09

that in very important work of

45:11

Tommy Shelby and I was arguing

45:13

and response to see him that

45:15

just as he looks back to

45:17

the tradition of black. Nationalism

45:19

interest save was he thinks is

45:21

important in it I. Threw.

45:24

My. Looking at driving and big

45:26

boys and single or I'm looking

45:28

back at what's important about black

45:30

cultural nationals and and same and

45:32

we can say that we just

45:34

have to see how it's possible

45:37

to do with a non essential

45:39

list version of it. And then

45:41

final chapter I tried to argue

45:43

for the importance is very intentionally

45:45

anti euro centric former Thousand Pounds

45:47

and isn't building on out here,

45:49

so that's just sort of the

45:52

ways in which I was. Reacting

45:54

to the time, a cat out of

45:57

his their have a kind of biased

45:59

perspective on. Because I see

46:01

you primarily as my gosh, you're on

46:03

the bug. I ever since help thinking

46:05

from that whole story that conclusion that

46:07

you are unwittingly designing yourself to be

46:10

the perfect person to do a podcast

46:12

on as true I forgot to ask

46:14

the right because you had covered oral

46:16

traditions and all debate about that you've

46:18

uncovered negativity covered two boys blighted. receiving

46:21

isn't thing about like the transition from

46:23

that is the twentieth century knew all

46:25

about the people in of our latter

46:27

part of the twentieth century for you,

46:29

he. Were. Augustus went to the

46:31

podcast you are more like filling in.

46:34

Gaps. That a speech and around

46:36

the things that you know but those

46:38

coming I've always been kind of amazed

46:40

by like others cheating know all this

46:42

be. Because. After me

46:45

that something else I could sell listeners because

46:47

this is all something that happens behind the

46:49

curtain. So when we. First. Started

46:51

she gets on me a list possible

46:53

topics. And. It's not exactly

46:55

what we did, but it's close. I.

46:58

Mean we sent recently added episodes we

47:00

went along those they the main difference.

47:02

I would say that it's are three

47:04

that. Are three balloons in

47:07

a part? three in the original plan

47:09

was not at and size from one

47:11

to and party three Twentieth century or

47:13

three on the twentieth Century exactly that

47:15

blue those ideas we had to cover

47:17

his own. That's right, that's right. So

47:19

yeah better than other. Never be accurate.

47:21

I think we always were supply needed

47:23

to George Clinton and Pierpont when I

47:25

was just absolutely we knew that there

47:27

were the semester billie head in our

47:29

going back. While I mean so you

47:32

know it's funny that is built on

47:34

your plate. Be. Delighted needs to be

47:36

able to write as we were working

47:38

on the final scripted absurd that them

47:40

very month of my birth. Is

47:43

the month. Window

47:45

Frame assets on a glossy

47:47

was first the Sicily used

47:49

at a conference Haverford organized

47:51

by Loses Outlaw. And it's

47:53

There was a counterparts and

47:56

Twenty one, Twenty four. you

47:58

know, working on the. The

48:00

the story of the Twenty first century

48:02

Than it might be nice to them

48:04

to say how. I. Got my

48:06

job at our house the in twenty

48:08

ten. Started. Like I

48:10

moved out. facts by August of that

48:13

year. I flew

48:15

back to Scarborough to descends I

48:17

want to say New York over

48:19

Twenty Ten and within a couple

48:21

months without a sudden listening to

48:23

a new podcast is just ask

48:25

in return Any Deaths And a

48:27

little did I know that it

48:29

would become extremely important to my

48:31

last year. Where. You are literally

48:33

put on our to do this then maybe you and.

48:38

I prefer to eat. I

48:40

love that someone I know

48:42

posted videos. It was to

48:44

the jazz teacher talking about

48:46

Sun Ra and the students

48:48

were asking why he's a

48:50

weird way, it's just the

48:52

way and the professor he

48:54

saying well you know. Doesn't.

48:57

Have the right to the an active

48:59

say it's it's stuck in the of

49:01

I thought about just weird person, an

49:03

individual that he was. What it means

49:05

to. Disrupt things and Sun

49:08

Ra certainly deserve to things in

49:10

interesting ways. and I don't see

49:12

that's the say that I see

49:14

myself. Meats and man is nice

49:16

to discuss things because I also

49:18

emphasized for myself a constructive role

49:20

of way that you know because

49:23

people like this is outlaw had

49:25

done what they did. I'm able

49:27

to help. If you want

49:29

to put a deli, continue disrupting. Blast Beats

49:31

the worst that I do on last last

49:34

last. Or I will.

49:36

That's an amazing know to and on. I think

49:38

I can now announce that those who don't know

49:40

yet about. What we're moving on to do from

49:42

here. Is. Classical.

49:44

Chinese Philosophy. With a

49:46

new costs are is caroline. From.

49:48

Sydney in Australia so that's coming us

49:51

in two weeks for gonna keep turning.

49:53

This is how it's those those unaware

49:55

that and those of you who follow

49:57

this on something other than the website

49:59

sorry. The website or just appear

50:01

as more episodes. but if you're following

50:03

us on Apple Podcasts are spawn of

50:06

our best. Songs.

50:11

And in an African of us coming

50:13

next and how it remains only to

50:15

thank you could ever so much or

50:17

during this series of me it's been

50:20

amazing trips it meant to. then I

50:22

enjoy the fact that I get to

50:24

be a listener again little just those

50:27

lips as you embark on this wonderful

50:29

journey. A. Meeting and talking and thinking

50:31

about trespassing. It's more seats is it

50:33

sees the exciting area and I was

50:35

learning a lot from you and turned

50:38

my. House from his and

50:40

learn a lot to discredit. it's okay

50:42

as I began to gk. Thanks so

50:44

much to the audience for following us

50:46

through these many episodes on Afrikaner Fawcett.

50:48

Please join me next time for the

50:50

history of Lost in China and with

50:52

that that's the end of the history

50:54

of Africa aft.