0:03

Hello podcast listeners and welcome to the HJ Talks About Abuse podcast.

0:08

I'm Dani Alvinson, I'm the Senior Associate in the Abuse Team and today I have

0:12

Lucy and Amy joining me from Safeguard First, which is safeguarding first should

0:21

we say, which is a new charity. So really excited to talk to both my

0:26

guests about this and of course if there are

0:28

any questions or any links we are going to link these on

0:31

the blog so you can get in contact but

0:34

before we start I just want to give a trigger warning that

0:38

we may be talking about lived experience sexual abuse

0:41

and some things that may be a bit hard to listen to

0:44

and a bit triggering so um if this is

0:46

not the podcast for you please do switch off but join us

0:49

at a later point so hi Lucy

0:52

hi Amy thank you for so some of

0:56

our podcast listeners will know that i've had lucy on twice before

0:59

so it's fantastic that you are coming back but we're talking about something

1:03

different today so we are talking about um safeguarding first which is going

1:08

to it's a new charity and i'm going to hand over to you both first but if any

1:13

of our listeners are wanting to find this it's just important to say it's safeguarding first,

1:18

but the number one so that you can find it. So over to you both.

1:26

Yes. So I've been, like you said, I've been on the podcast before with yours

1:30

in scouting and we led a campaign that has kind of culminated in the scouts

1:36

changing a lot of their safeguarding systems.

1:39

And one of the things that was really highlighted during that was the kind of

1:45

lack of quality face-to-face safeguarding

1:48

training out there for voluntary organisations and for volunteers.

1:52

Is i know that um you know obviously

1:55

a lot of these well all of these charities and children's

1:58

organizations hopefully are doing the mandatory modules but a

2:02

lot of that is online and can be done very very quickly with

2:06

not a huge amount of kind of engagement and

2:09

real understanding so what we wanted to do

2:12

was um create a charity that offers that face-to-face safeguarding training

2:17

training to people and make sure that they've got a real comprehensive understanding

2:24

of safeguarding and how to look after young people and not just kind of a tick box exercise,

2:30

which, you know, as a teacher, I do every year.

2:32

And I know that it is a very, very quick thing that you can do without a huge

2:38

amount of kind of comprehension around the topic and around what it really means

2:43

to put in a safeguarding form and how to do it and what to write on it and how to do it properly.

2:48

Yeah sadly i think when you do do some mandatory training

2:51

sometimes especially if you're starting a new job or anything all feels

2:54

a bit overwhelming and especially if it's a

2:57

click through process i think we've all been guilty at some

2:59

stage of feeling the question gotta get it done so you click

3:02

through and obviously what we're talking about it is fundamental that this is

3:07

done with full understanding because frankly you know that could be saving a

3:11

potential person from life-changing incidents that will as i say impact them

3:17

for forever more so fantastic charity.

3:22

So to talk anyone through that

3:25

has listened to what you've just said and thought, wow, this is for me.

3:29

What is the charity going to offer specifically and how do people get in contact

3:34

with you if it's something that they think is going to be helpful to them?

3:38

So we've got a website, Safeguarding First.

3:41

So it's safeguarding and then 1st.com. and there's a contact us page on there

3:47

which we're very happy for people to get in keen for people to get in contact

3:50

with us through um should they want to my details are on there and amy's will

3:55

be as well shortly um who is our other director at the charity and um,

4:01

yeah so we will be offering safeguarding training we've currently got an accredited,

4:07

safeguarding training so we put it through the um cpd organized cpd certification

4:14

education organization i can never remember the name of it fully but the cpd yeah accreditation,

4:20

i'm more on the way as well more training being written

4:23

at the moment that's it yeah so that's it we've we've been looking at an autism

4:27

one this evening haven't we amy um to work with children with autism so it's

4:33

not just the fundamental safeguarding it is kind of looking at creating creating

4:37

organisations that are safe and inclusive for all.

4:41

Okay, so it can be slightly tailored as well then, depending on who's potentially

4:45

contacting you, because I guess certain organisations will have slightly different safeguarding needs.

4:52

Yeah, definitely. And I mean, I think one of our unique selling points is that

4:57

we are coming from a perspective of we both have that lived experience of when

5:02

safeguarding isn't implemented,

5:05

when it is kind of pushed down the list of priorities.

5:09

And we want to make use of that

5:12

lived experience and be able to offer that to people

5:16

who are currently in positions of trust and looking after

5:19

young people and be able to say you

5:22

know what we've been there what do

5:25

you want to ask us what can we help you with what

5:28

is it that you need to look for to

5:31

know if something is going wrong or

5:34

if there is a child at risk what you should you be be

5:37

looking out for and I know these are things that

5:40

are to a degree covered in mandatory training

5:43

that you can get elsewhere but this is the opportunity for people to ask us

5:47

frank questions and for us to bring that experience to the table and use terrible

5:55

things for good hopefully to hopefully keep other young people safe.

6:02

Yeah I think that's fantastic because as you say

6:05

with safeguarding training sometimes it doesn't

6:08

like other training doesn't actually come to life but but

6:11

with your lived experience that I think people will

6:14

very much take it a lot more seriously sadly if they haven't

6:17

before so fantastic so what

6:21

are the aims going to be so when I bring you on

6:24

in a year's time what's the

6:26

aim how's it going to progress what we're working towards at the moment is running

6:33

um an online session and each week and then we're also looking at doing an in-person

6:40

session each week in the long term so we're hoping um.

6:45

To be able to offer that uk wide online session we're gonna potentially offer

6:50

the autism course in a few weeks as our first session it's a bit of a pilot

6:54

run which is really exciting. Um and we want to offer them kind of out of

6:58

work hours so that volunteers can do them you know

7:01

kind of in like 90 minute ish long sessions and

7:05

so they fit really nicely and they're not a huge burden so obviously

7:08

we all know that you get home and the last thing you

7:11

you want to do is sit on a 90 minute kind of webinar or seminar

7:14

but actually they'll be 90 minutes really informative they'll

7:17

feel really really worthwhile and worth doing and you'll

7:21

come away with lots of new ideas and you know

7:24

understanding of how you can really implement these things so how you

7:26

can really ensure that safeguarding is a

7:29

core practice in your you know club group

7:32

extracurricular activity or you know

7:35

come away with an understanding of how you can

7:38

better cater to neurodiverse young people and

7:41

children and how you can better include them in your organization

7:44

not only for them but to make it easier for yourself

7:47

um you know if you are someone working in a

7:50

voluntary organization without that kind of training and

7:53

experience it can be quite difficult and quite stressful you know on you if

7:57

you don't if you don't have that that support and that understanding of how

8:01

to do it yeah i agree especially when you know anyone Anyone that's been listening

8:06

to this podcast for a long time knows that we've been talking about mandatory

8:08

reporting for years now.

8:11

And obviously, there still isn't very much movement on it.

8:14

So I think any training that deals with safeguarding and provides additional

8:18

support to individuals is, you know, I think you and Lucy, we talked about last time.

8:23

Sometimes with safeguarding, you can be in quite a difficult position because

8:26

you can be in an organization that may be friends for years,

8:29

family for years. And so safeguarding. Anything that strengthens this training

8:35

or highlights you know things to look out

8:38

for I'm always very very positive for we

8:42

were saying weren't we Amy we we had you know very similar experiences

8:45

in two very different organizations um and

8:48

you know it absolutely is occurring everywhere and I

8:51

know for me and I think I'm sure Amy can

8:54

probably agree but she can speak for in a sec

8:57

um that you know i think one of the issues in

9:01

my case was that the abuser was you know

9:03

a heavily involved person within the group and someone

9:06

that people thought of as you know a great person

9:09

and really involved and they you know was their friend and

9:13

it was very difficult for them to you know then speak out

9:16

against that person and even when things did come to

9:19

a light um people you know

9:21

continued to cover up because they were protecting families and friends

9:24

and people they'd known for years and i don't know if you

9:27

found the same where you were to a

9:30

degree but the thing is is uh so my experience is

9:33

um i was abused within um a church setting so the salvation army um i was a

9:42

teenager and my abuser was a man in his late 30s he was well known to to be interested.

9:53

Too interested in young people.

9:55

And multiple adults had warned me about not spending too much time with him

10:02

because of his reputation. People were well aware that something was wrong and I was spending a lot of

10:09

time with this person alone.

10:12

I received music lessons in his bedroom that was well known um at that church

10:20

that everybody knew about it

10:22

so there people knew that this person was untrustworthy and yet still um.

10:30

Nobody, when rumours kind of arose about there being a relationship between

10:35

us, nobody approached the police.

10:37

The paperwork that should have been filled out was not completed correctly.

10:43

It was just, you know, brushed under the carpet.

10:47

Nobody even approached my parents to tell my parents that something was wrong.

10:51

They were not members of the church, but obviously from

10:55

attending for many years I started

10:58

through a girls brigade which is a kind

11:01

of like brownies um that kind of thing

11:05

but like maybe you're a more religious version people knew

11:08

who my parents were they had their contact numbers and yet

11:11

even though uh people definitely had.

11:14

Their suspicions and um confronted uh

11:18

me and asked me if there was a relationship they

11:21

still didn't tell my parents they still didn't do

11:24

that kind of reporting of any suspicions

11:27

so people knew this guy was like not

11:30

trustworthy but even so still didn't

11:34

report yeah and sadly you hear

11:37

you know just like your lived experience many

11:40

many people that are saying the same

11:44

and exactly safeguarding mandatory reporting you know

11:47

would that situation be repeated now if

11:50

you know your efforts what you're doing were in

11:53

in place you know I think giving people that

11:57

they're really empowering people to know the steps

12:00

to report and to have confidence in that process

12:03

of how to do it can be really helpful because it could be you

12:06

know that one person maybe other people ignore it

12:09

but that one person you know who's done our training feels no

12:13

do you know what I know that I need to do this form I can send

12:16

it to this person and then it's out of my hands that could be really empowering

12:21

and you know just just that simple step from one person could go on to save

12:26

that child from continued abuse or hopefully stop it before it even starts happening

12:30

if they've seen something earlier on.

12:33

Or as Amy was saying, if it's someone with a reputation, hopefully kind of low-level

12:38

concerns will have been reported and things like that.

12:40

And a picture will have built up earlier before that person's able to go on

12:44

and commit actual abuse.

12:47

Yeah, because I think that's one of the concerns that my experience of having

12:52

worked with many victims or survivors is that actually quite often,

12:57

exactly like this scenario you've said, Amy, you said the low level whispers, low level whispers,

13:01

you know, and perhaps that person goes up or moves away and then starts again.

13:06

Again, and it's, you know, sort of a circle of a process.

13:09

And it's almost that, you know, if the police have been informed,

13:14

you know, there's no thought process of tracking where this individual has potentially gone.

13:20

And specifically in the scenario that you're discussing historically,

13:25

quite often if there were whispers, that person would bounce and move on very

13:29

quickly before, you know, their role.

13:32

And he had previously done so. yeah positions of trust that actually they were

13:36

moved location rather than facing the issue um,

13:41

so yeah sorry i just i wanted to say wanted to highlight for both of like in

13:46

me and amy's cases they're not historical in the sense of kind of historical

13:50

abuse we're not talking about kind of jimmy saville times these are you know

13:55

post 2004 very recent situations that are you you know, that aren't kind of imminent,

14:01

like imminent recent things.

14:03

Yeah, within the last 20 years. Absolutely, within a time where people would have been saying,

14:08

oh, it's not like that anymore. Or, you know, we know how to look after children now.

14:14

So it's not that we're thinking of, obviously, like, it's absolutely horrible

14:19

and we should have been getting it right for the whole of history.

14:22

But it's not a time, you know, our experiences

14:25

aren't at a time where we can say all things have

14:28

moved on from there because you know they haven't these

14:31

are still experiences that happened in very recent history and are not historical

14:37

in the sense of historical abuse so we need to be training people in order to

14:41

deal with or with situations such as what we experienced because they are very

14:46

possibly occurring up and down the country still,

14:50

within many different organizations well they're definitely happening

14:53

you know up and down the country in organizations so yeah

14:56

well what's this we're still seeing this aren't we with statistics but

15:00

you know ultimately statistics are always lower because we

15:02

know people will not disclose until probably much

15:05

later on in like if they do after all that's it

15:08

and that's what we saw you know in the the scouting thing

15:11

was that there was a lot of disclosures from a long long time ago but similarly

15:16

we were starting to get some from more recently and from um you know after 2014

15:22

2014 we got a lot of um you know disclosures from men so it does show that you

15:28

know that one organization it it must be happening elsewhere.

15:32

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think for my listeners, when I say historical,

15:36

I mean the types of cases that, you know, when we're really talking about when

15:41

someone could bounce a job and there was no sort of electronic way of checking the CV or checking.

15:46

So we're talking a long time ago but absolutely it's still

15:49

you know um a major major

15:52

issue you know we're seeing on the news you are having

15:56

reports in your with your other hat on um and

15:59

you know and the cases we're having come in you know

16:02

still things are happening within the last six

16:05

months or a year or or whatever so um i'd

16:09

have hoped that in this when we got to this

16:12

point in our lives that actually you know and with all the

16:15

tech and all the things that we've progressed in as you know

16:18

a community that actually safeguarding would be absolutely

16:21

up there but as you're both highlighting there's still

16:24

major holes um I think

16:27

it's much easier to think oh it's all okay it

16:30

wouldn't happen here than it is to really face it and really implement it for

16:35

a lot of people especially when you're looking at people that you've perhaps

16:39

worked with for a long time time that you're possibly very close to and kind

16:46

of looking at a situation and thinking.

16:49

Well you know this young person in

16:52

this situation maybe they seem withdrawn

16:56

maybe they seem like they're kind of possessively clinging

17:00

to this person in the position of trust and asking yourself those uncomfortable

17:05

questions asking why is that does something feel uncomfortable to me or why

17:11

is that and following those processes so if something is wrong you're hopefully,

17:19

rescuing that child from like a deeply traumatic experience and if not then

17:26

you have asked the question anyway because better to be sure.

17:32

So anyone that's obviously listening to this podcast and thinks,

17:35

yes, this is for me, I want to, you know, sign up, I want to join.

17:40

Are they able to have almost drop-in sessions or is it a course of a period

17:45

of time or is it a 90-minute session that should cover everything?

17:48

So just so our listeners know, or is that still in the process of being worked out?

17:54

We will be offering online courses that people can sign up to.

17:58

So it will be a case of they sign up to a session, which will be on a certain

18:02

night, which will be a lead session. And we will advertise through our website and they'll be able to book on to

18:08

following a link on the website. And if they did want something more specific or to give us, you know,

18:15

maybe advice or a suggestion of courses that they would like to see us do.

18:20

Do if they email lucy at safeguardingfirst.com so

18:24

it's safeguarding1st.com or amy

18:28

at safeguardingfirst.com and we'd be

18:31

really really happy to hear what people's ideas are and what people

18:34

feel that you know they need because we've had our

18:36

experiences i still work in the sector i know amy's working

18:39

um with the carers i believe

18:42

amy yeah my my role at

18:45

the moment is i support um um unpaid carers

18:49

i work at helpline actually providing kind of

18:52

a mix of information and guidance and like emotional and

18:55

mental health support and um a lot of my role is

18:58

signposting to other organizations and i

19:01

think that's something that we can definitely work towards doing through

19:04

our website um say you were a parent who

19:07

came onto our website and you were concerned about um

19:10

something that you had suspected had happened with your

19:13

child or or your child had made a disclosure i'm sure we can kind of work towards

19:19

having some resources to point people towards um in addition to the training

19:24

that we um are working towards offering so um people who are concerned can be

19:30

hopefully pointed in the right direction as well.

19:33

Absolutely. We do have, we've got some online advice for parents for kind of

19:39

locking down computers and making sure that their devices are safer for children to use.

19:45

And as Amy was saying, we will be able to work towards more,

19:48

offering more things like that and more resources because it is really important.

19:51

And, you know, we're parents, we work in, you know, sectors that do keep us

19:57

in the loop with much of this, but we don't know what everyone wants.

20:00

So by having people contact us and let us know what they want,

20:03

you know, it does really help support us and make sure that we're offering the best service possible.

20:08

We'll be asking for feedback following our courses as well.

20:11

And, you know, we really want honest feedback from people because the reason

20:15

why we're doing this is because we want to help.

20:18

And if there's something that people feel having

20:21

received our content they feel that we should

20:23

be doing differently we are more than

20:26

happy to take suggestions on board so we can

20:29

provide the best possible information for people yeah

20:33

fantastic i mean i was just thinking that there'll be

20:36

quite a few individuals and as you say even parents that perhaps

20:40

have never been in a safeguarding role for example so

20:43

this has not been effectively applicable so you

20:46

know or you'd think wouldn't be applicable but then you

20:49

know do have a child and then are helping out with the

20:51

local football team or are doing and I guess that's the

20:54

type of role then that you know they may think actually no

20:57

I really need to have some training here on this

21:00

that's the kind of you know that is a big portion of

21:03

our target market the people we're looking to offer training to

21:06

because you know as a parent you do come into

21:09

contact yeah you've got your own children to look after and that's

21:12

such a responsibility and you know you

21:15

do come in contact with lots of other children lots of other young young people as well

21:18

so you know this training is valuable for anyone yeah

21:21

and it isn't just you know we are talking about

21:24

volunteers because that's the people who you know we

21:27

feel you know need it the most but absolutely you

21:30

know anyone anyone in in the UK is welcome to join the training and we'll get

21:36

something out of it and we'll get an understanding of you know of safeguarding.

21:40

And what they can do if they have concerns about a child yeah I mean I think.

21:44

That's something we we can definitely work towards providing.

21:48

Because say if you take the example of...

21:52

Your child invites another child around for a play date

21:55

and you notice that something about that

21:58

child doesn't seem right they seem very withdrawn they

22:01

kind of you you approach them like maybe

22:05

to give them some dinner and they flinch away from you

22:08

and some some advice for parents of

22:11

what to do in that situation they've got concerns about

22:14

this other child and they want want to make sure

22:17

they're they're safe you know giving some people

22:20

resources around that as well yeah and

22:23

that's the exactly the sort of scenario that I

22:26

guess we talked about when we talked about at the start about you

22:29

know sometimes organizations but what we were focusing on

22:32

originally you know they're run by family members but in that

22:35

scenario as well you know you still gotta effectively face

22:38

that other parent at the school gates or you know if you report

22:41

it to the school or you will port it you know to an online

22:44

charity or you know so I'm sure some parents will

22:47

naturally question themselves like

22:50

when we talk about sexual abuse generally we question our reactions

22:53

our thoughts our feelings about something our gut instinct about it

22:56

you know that you can see that dilemma exactly great

22:59

example that you would think oh gosh you know

23:02

have I read this wrong actually you know am I going to get this parent

23:04

into trouble if actually you know that there isn't anything wrong so

23:08

yeah I really see that that's it

23:11

and I think like when when you reported it you do feel that weight off

23:14

as well so if you have got concerns you know and if it is like you're

23:17

saying something like a child having a child brown fatigue if.

23:20

There's no other reports about that child you know that's not going to go anywhere

23:23

but you know that you've done the right thing yeah and you know that you know

23:27

if there are you know 30 other reports about different things and that adds

23:30

to another picture into a bigger picture you know you again help to protect

23:34

that child so it is it covers that child's back almost.

23:38

You're looking after them and you're making sure that they're safe and doing what you can.

23:44

You know if you've got a low level safeguarding concern you're

23:48

absolutely not gonna you know report that person

23:51

to whoever and then they're gonna lose their

23:54

child over it it's not that's not how it works and I

23:56

think it's really important again to support people to know that

23:59

because it's a scary thing I know you know it's

24:02

it for my for myself and for other people you always question

24:05

yourself and you always think you know am I doing

24:08

the right thing in reporting this concern yeah yeah

24:11

um but again it gives like i said it gives people that confidence that

24:14

actually you know they can report it and if it

24:16

is nothing then it will be kind of kept on file

24:19

but it's not going to be a huge issue and cause you

24:22

know huge issues for that family and that's that's really

24:25

good to know because you know obviously both of your roles have

24:28

you know helped you learn that but for i imagine

24:31

a parent that is you know had their own children

24:34

but haven't ever worked in that role oh my gosh if i report this social services

24:39

are going to come around they're going to take the child away you know and so

24:42

you can see why sabby you know some people are reluctant to report but but you

24:47

know as you say it's absolutely essential that if there are concerns that things are reported.

24:53

That's it you know these small concerns they create a

24:56

bigger picture don't they potentially or you know

24:59

the child's had a bad day and is feeling a bit a bit nervous

25:02

you know either way you've done the

25:04

right thing reporting it because you may have added to a bigger picture or

25:07

you may have you know just done the right thing ultimately and

25:11

i think as well around the issue of um

25:14

what to do and what to say if a

25:17

child or an adult who has been uh the

25:20

a survivor of abuse from childhood makes a disclosure to you the process that

25:26

you should follow what you should say what you should not say i think a lot

25:30

of people would not know what to do if they were put in that position and And

25:34

I definitely think there's scope for us to offer some advice around that.

25:39

Yeah, that's often actually very true for clients that I represent is that perhaps

25:44

the first disclosure they've made have been to somebody who,

25:49

you know, sadly has misconstrued what they've said or not quite taken it for

25:54

what it actually truly has meant. So, you know, specifically for someone like you, Lucy, who's trained as a teacher,

26:02

you would be really hot on, you know, a

26:04

child disclosing anything to you but actually in other

26:08

certain professions again I think or you know

26:10

you're just you're working yeah exactly as

26:14

a volunteer perhaps and you've never done a role like that you've

26:16

never perhaps worked closely with children before and children especially

26:19

if it's a young child can disclose in very different ways

26:23

it's not necessarily directly oh this

26:27

has happened to me it can be quite difficult to

26:30

decipher or yeah difficult to and if you

26:33

don't know what to do you don't know how to respond like you're

26:36

saying that you can accidentally look completely shut that child down and

26:40

you know they may never speak about it again or they may take

26:43

a long long time to come forward again well fantastic

26:47

guys i'm really looking forward to seeing um this

26:51

grow um and it's important to

26:54

say if anybody again so we will link all the contact details

26:57

um if anyone wants to get in touch but

27:00

also um on your website that that there's an area

27:03

just saying if anyone's interested in supporting the fundraising efforts

27:06

to get in contact with you so it'll be good to see what you've got

27:09

up your sleeves in regards to that and anyone who's listening

27:12

who wants to support them by all means do get in contact

27:15

with Lucy and Amy yeah yeah please do

27:19

we do have a launch event coming up in October that.

27:22

Might be good to make people aware of oh fabulous

27:26

yeah so please give us the details of that do we we know where it

27:28

is yet or what's going to be happening so yes

27:32

we're not we're not 100 sure on the final details but

27:35

we've booked um we've booked an event at sheffield hallam university

27:38

in october and to kind of do a bigger launch and

27:41

to kind of hopefully make the public more more aware of

27:44

us and what we offer okay so quad

27:48

class listeners we will keep you updated on that we will tweet once

27:51

the details are confirmed um but thank you lucy thank you amy and as i say uh

27:56

thank you for listening podcast listeners if you've got any questions for lucy

27:59

or amy or myself please do email either to me or to lucy and amy and um one

28:05

of us can come back to you so thanks everyone thanks both thank you danielle.