0:00

old is true to be self evident. That all

0:02

means concrete.

0:03

There's a number of congress I get

0:05

to have a lot of really interesting people in the office.

0:07

Experts on what they're talking about. This is

0:09

the podcast. for insights into the issues.

0:11

China, bio terrorism, Medicare for

0:13

all. In-depth discussions, breaking

0:16

it down into simple terms. We old

0:18

We hold We hold these truths. We hold these

0:20

truths. With Dan Krenshaw. We hold our lives.

0:23

Americans

0:24

are watching China go through what seems like

0:26

an unprecedented level a protest in

0:28

China as Chinese officials are using every

0:30

tool that they have to both spy on their citizens

0:33

and block the free flow of information. At

0:35

the same time, they are exporting the ability to

0:37

track and collect data on American citizens

0:40

through apps like TikTok and companies

0:42

like Huawei and ZTE. Federal

0:44

Communications Commission is on the front lines

0:46

working to protect American citizens from these

0:49

threats, and Commissioner Carr joins

0:51

us again discuss all

0:53

of this, Brendon. Thanks for being back

0:55

on. So last

0:57

time I saw you, we were climbing this big cell

0:59

tower. in my district.

1:01

That's like a thing you do. Yeah. So good to

1:03

see you again. Great to be down on the ground

1:05

with you. Whenever I get out of DC, I try

1:07

to spend as little time in DC as possible in this job.

1:10

I like to get up in the air with tower Crenshaw.

1:12

They're doing the the tough work to connect to all those particular

1:14

in the pandemic. Most people just assume their

1:16

phone's gonna work, their TV's gonna turn on,

1:18

they're just gonna fire up, but it's these men and women

1:20

climbing these towers. So it's great to get up two or

1:22

three hundred feet with you. That was a pretty impressive.

1:24

I know -- Yeah. -- people made a tail from a podcast,

1:26

but I have a bureaucratic physique. So I'm

1:28

I'm scrawny. I'm bald. And for me

1:30

to get a chance to climb a tower with

1:32

a former Navy Sea with something. So I had to train

1:35

for it, did some running, actually did

1:37

a pull up pulled a muscle in my shoulder,

1:39

which I do a pull up to to make sure that

1:41

I keep up with you on that tower, but had a had a lot

1:43

of fun. Not new not easy enough

1:45

legs. Right. k. Get up there. Yeah.

1:47

That was fun. That was I've never kind of a tower before.

1:49

It it was cool. Quite the view

1:51

from up there. Yep. So and and and real

1:53

quick really briefly before we get into TikTok

1:56

and and and and so the

1:58

intricacies on that and and a few other topics.

1:59

again, let's remind

2:02

the audience what is the FCC? What what does it you

2:04

guys do exactly? Obviously, you oversee

2:06

things like cell towers. Otherwise, you wouldn't be climbing

2:08

them all the time. So give us a quick synopsis

2:10

of the American look, what is this organization? Yes.

2:12

The FCC is about thirteen or fourteen hundred

2:14

people. It's headed by five commissioners.

2:16

I'm one of them. Three are of the president's

2:19

party too or in the minority. So I'm working

2:21

my way slowly into the minority of the

2:23

FCC. And the way to think about is sort of a a

2:25

mini Congress for tech and telecom. We

2:27

vote on things that can enable the four

2:29

g to five g transition. We're helping

2:31

to authorize this new generation of low earth orbit

2:33

satellites. That's the one they don't wanna ask about.

2:35

We do that as well. Then we administer this program

2:38

called the Federal universal service fund, which is a nine

2:40

billion dollar year fund to try to support

2:42

rural Internet build, where there's no private sector

2:44

business case, and any company that's a license,

2:46

so AT and T or T Mobile that wants to merger

2:49

transaction, they have to come before the FCC.

2:51

And then we do some stuff, section two thirty, which

2:53

is very famous, is actually section two thirty,

2:55

the Communications Act. Right. So I think we have role

2:57

there to play. Right. It it is that was

2:59

that a topic of last time we talked, I think? It was

3:01

a big focus last time. Yeah. So it's in the Communications

3:03

Act, and I think we should step in there and and

3:05

put some pro speech guardrails in place. We've

3:07

yet to do that, but that's one area where I think we could

3:09

be more active. Yeah. Well, have a

3:11

ton of legislation. There's like fifty bills

3:13

and E and C just kinda ready to go, not all

3:15

of which I even think are great, but it's a

3:17

good start in my mind, in particular, simply

3:19

adds a a little

3:21

section of two thirty that that protects

3:24

political speech, basically, uses the

3:26

same language as as

3:28

you would use in a nondiscrimination law.

3:31

that's so important. Texas as a state

3:33

passed a similar law similar to

3:35

what your bill would do as well. Non discrimination against

3:37

political viewpoints it was appealed. It was

3:39

recently upheld and appealed by the fifth circuit.

3:41

Mhmm. In that case, I assume it's potentially

3:44

headed to the supreme So I think we're gonna see a lot

3:46

of activity here just supports in Congress

3:48

on this concept of nondiscrimination for

3:50

participating in what's effectively a digital

3:52

-- Right. -- elsewhere. Right. Right. And

3:56

Wow.

3:56

Well well, now I kinda wanna get into the

3:58

Elon Musk thing because we're we're already

3:59

moving in that direction. But but just for the

4:02

audience, we we are gonna talk about banning tech talk

4:04

okay, like, and and the ramifications of

4:06

that. But since we're already on this free speech path,

4:08

let's stay there. What

4:10

do you think? I mean, Musk

4:13

I'm not sure what Elon Musk thinks about it because he was trying

4:15

to get out of that deal. I

4:17

would have I never would have urged him to buy buy

4:19

Twitter, I think. think Twitter is

4:21

just successful, and I'm not and and I have

4:23

the same questions he has always had. Right? Like, how

4:25

many bots are on this? How many real people

4:27

are really on Twitter? Is this really worth

4:29

it. But maybe he'll make it worth it.

4:31

I don't know. He's obviously moving

4:33

to this more of a subscription model

4:36

that seems smart if you're trying to make money,

4:38

but this is that gonna make people use it

4:40

less? I mean, how many people use it anyway?

4:42

What do you just what do you what's your first reaction

4:44

to the whole thing? Have have we've been

4:46

watching Elon just just

4:48

go, like, head first into this. Yeah. One

4:50

most interesting thing to me with Elon

4:52

Musk purchase of Twitter is it's it's really

4:54

further exposed a free speech divide.

4:57

in this country. You know, it wasn't very

4:59

long ago that free speech

5:01

diversity of views was a very

5:03

progressive viewpoint. Exactly.

5:05

If you go back, the actual the modern

5:08

day op ed launched on the pages of the

5:10

New York Times in nineteen seventy because

5:12

of then editor John Oakes

5:14

said that diversity of opinion is the

5:16

lifeblood of democracy. The moment we insist that

5:18

everyone think the same way we do, our

5:20

democratic way of life was in jeopardy wanted

5:22

views in the New York Times that were different

5:24

than what you would hear divergent in his

5:26

views from the New York Times editors. And now,

5:28

you know, flash forward fifty years, the New York Times is

5:30

actually in the front end of enforcing orthodox,

5:32

and they don't want opinion in

5:34

their pages that's different from them. So I think

5:36

that's really been exposed by Elon

5:38

Musk. You have a lot of people that want more censorship,

5:41

more control in this entire idea

5:43

that somehow free speech is a

5:45

threat to democracy is just, you know,

5:47

antithetical White House just this

5:49

week saying that they were keeping an eye on Twitter --

5:51

Yeah. -- keeping an eye on Twitter. Yeah. Not

5:53

really. deal on my Exane. Like, what is a

5:55

dangerous video on Musk? This guy has created

5:57

SpaceX in that you guys loved all

5:59

of this shit. I

5:59

mean, it's it's it's kinda baffling.

6:02

But but you it's also interesting to watch because

6:04

it's interesting to watch how Elon and

6:07

he's like a more controlled Trump. Right? He

6:10

he he he says everything he thinks

6:12

on Twitter. And it's it's

6:14

fascinating. You you can really you get a feel for his

6:16

brain and and how he's how he's moving through

6:18

this. And and he's trying to figure it

6:20

out. Like, he's he's so transparent about

6:22

how he's trying to figure out the next steps.

6:24

He's asking questions. Like, Should we do this?

6:26

Should we do that? And it

6:28

it it it does bring up something that I've

6:30

always noticed when we talk

6:32

about censorship which is there has to be

6:34

some kind of management of content on a

6:36

social media platform. Otherwise, it becomes

6:38

unusable. And Elon Musk got

6:40

it. I've I've seen him deal with this. Right? Like,

6:42

it's like, he's not gonna ban

6:44

speech, but but he still will ban

6:46

speech. That is he that as he

6:48

said, is is, like, negative or

6:50

can't remember the other word he used, but negative speech

6:53

and said, well, there we we're right back to

6:55

square one here now because of how do you

6:57

define that? And now look, I think

6:59

the way he would define it is probably

7:01

better for conservatives than because I

7:03

don't think he would define it as political speech. I think he

7:05

would define it. think he wants it to be nice

7:07

place. I think if I'm understanding how

7:09

his mind is working, he just wants it

7:11

to be a place where, like, you actually just

7:13

get information and you talk about

7:15

your kids and,

7:16

you know, there's, like, new sites

7:19

there and and and counter news to

7:21

that news. I mean, but just not a place where

7:23

you're screaming at each other and trying to destroy each

7:25

other. I think in in his I think that's his utopia

7:27

as far as I can tell, I don't know how

7:29

you get there because people are assholes.

7:31

Right. This is my podcast, so I can see whatever I

7:33

want. You can swear too if you want anyone

7:35

to No, sir. to a to a sensor

7:38

up finity on the podcast. So, yeah, let's

7:40

let it rip. But you guys as long as the sensor

7:42

on cable news Podcasts. Yeah. Right.

7:44

Right. You know what? You know, that's fine. I'm

7:46

I'm okay with that, you shouldn't be saying whatever you

7:48

want. Kids watch that. Well, think you're I think the most

7:50

important thing is basically what you're getting

7:52

at is a first amendment standard, which is how do

7:54

we protect core political speech from

7:56

discrimination, from censorship at the end

7:58

of the day. If we can't

7:59

talk about every

8:01

single potential perspective on

8:03

a in a main public problem.

8:06

We are weaker as a country from solving it. Why

8:08

can't we discuss the potential origins of

8:10

COVID-nineteen? Why can't we discuss the efficacy

8:13

of masks? You know, or either MEKTIN.

8:15

Right? Do vaccines help you from dying, going to hospital,

8:17

or they also stop transmission? We need to be

8:19

able to discuss all of that, and we couldn't because

8:21

you had, you know, the centralization of control on

8:23

social media. And I think the path forward to your

8:25

point has to be something like the first amendment

8:27

standard, which is We have defined

8:30

core political speech. We know what it is. We deal

8:32

with it in all sorts of context. It's that

8:34

type of speech that should be protected from censorship.

8:36

In my view, is I think the digital

8:38

town square in promoting speech is so

8:40

important that we shouldn't simply rely on the

8:42

hopefully benevolent censorship

8:45

content moderation even of Elon Musk. I

8:47

think that's why your legislation and others

8:49

is so important to step in and say, look, if

8:51

you're expressing a political view, I don't care if it's

8:53

Elon Musk. someone else owning a platform, they

8:55

shouldn't be able to Crenshaw and

8:57

shut that down. But but that's really the goal. That allows

8:59

you to censor, you know, incitement of

9:01

violence, things that aren't protected by the first men

9:03

and child corn, and you don't have to have that stuff

9:05

on these websites, but you can still protect core

9:07

political speech. Right? It it will

9:09

forever be a thorny issue that you had

9:11

to attack with scalpel, not not

9:13

a hammer. And and I do think a lot of our

9:15

legislation get gets at that point because you don't wanna

9:17

destroy the Internet either. And

9:19

we we just have to decide as a country once

9:21

once these platforms are big enough

9:23

are they

9:23

the town square? And and I think I think

9:25

our general view on the conservative side is

9:27

yes. Yes. They're somewhat like a utility.

9:29

They're somewhat like a town square. They've

9:31

become so big that they can't be seen as

9:33

just a, it's just another mom and pop shop trying

9:35

to, you know, it's not the cake baker. Right. It's

9:38

not the cake baker. Just baking whatever cake

9:40

they want. Okay. And it it's

9:42

just it's different and it's unprecedented. And

9:44

our founders, they could foresee a lot

9:46

of things. They couldn't foresee this. I mean, I

9:48

think

9:48

too much. You're exactly right. You know, one analogy

9:51

that I'd look to, which is a rough analogy, but is is

9:53

cable. In the nineteen nineties, Congress decided

9:55

that being on cable was

9:57

vital to the economic well-being

10:00

of broadcast TV. And so

10:02

Congress said, look, you local cable

10:04

channel capable company, cable

10:06

operator, you don't have carte Carr to

10:08

decide what broadcast TV signals to put

10:10

on your system and not because it's too important

10:12

to be there. So Congress stepped in with some guardrails

10:14

and regulated that. They went to the supreme court -- Yeah. -- and

10:16

was upheld. And I think that's sort of the path forward, which

10:18

is whatever the the merit of being on cable

10:20

in the nineties, it's that much more important to be on

10:22

social media -- Mhmm. -- today, it's

10:24

been a challenging carte blanche to to pick

10:26

and choose which speech to carry or not.

10:28

Child porn fine. In Simon of Ireland, it's fine. But if it's

10:30

expressing, you mean, you mean, not fine. Yeah. Yeah.

10:32

Fine. Yeah. Fine. Fine. Just to

10:34

clarify your position on that.

10:36

Right. It's

10:40

in the news. It's in the conservative news about

10:42

lately. Yeah. Yeah. I know we have a right

10:44

to stop those things.

10:46

Okay. But but so so we like

10:48

free speech. Right? We we we we want these

10:50

platforms to have free speech. We're TikTok. Screw

10:52

TikTok. Okay. So that's TikTok.

10:54

Why should we ban TikTok? And I

10:57

I think people are generally following this

10:59

issue. They know that the the reason, like Trump

11:01

wanted to ban it, the reason we're also

11:03

skeptical of TikTok is because

11:05

It's it's a backdoor for China. And there's

11:09

there's a few roads I wanna go. Well, let's just

11:11

start with your your letter on this is the

11:13

first this is your your strongest opposition

11:15

to TikTok that that you specifically

11:17

have stated. So run us through your arguments

11:20

about why we're at the point now where it

11:22

it you can't even negotiate with TikTok

11:24

anymore. because it looks because some background is well,

11:26

actually, you want to you tell us the background because you're

11:28

probably you'll explain it better I can about

11:30

the negotiations with making it a a

11:32

US parent company where that's gone, why

11:34

you think that's no longer viable option, why

11:36

we should just get rid of it and just and make

11:38

poor teenagers I don't

11:40

know, live in despair and

11:42

and just a dark, dark world where they might have to

11:44

actually talk to each other and climb trees and shit

11:46

and do whatever else as

11:48

teenagers. Well, there's no question. TikTok is

11:50

immensely popular in

11:52

America with young people in this country. A lot of

11:54

people look at it. They say, well, it's just a fun platform

11:57

for sharing videos and dance memes. And

11:59

the reality is that's just the sheep's clothing. Underneath,

12:01

it operates as a very sophisticated

12:04

surveillance technology. It's not the video that you're uploading

12:06

that matters. What happens is once you have TikTok,

12:08

they reserve the right through their terms of

12:10

service to collect everything from search and

12:12

browsing history Keystroke

12:14

patterns. They say they reserved the rights to get

12:16

biometrics, including faceprints and

12:18

voiceprints. And for years, TikTok was asked,

12:20

is this secure Is it being accessed by

12:22

Beijing? And for years, TikTok

12:24

officials just gaslighted all

12:26

of us in Washington, D. C. and said,

12:28

don't worry. This data is not

12:30

stored inside China. And over

12:32

this past summer, it's really when things took a

12:34

turn against TikTok, where there was internal

12:37

TikTok communications that revealed everything

12:39

is seen in China. So all this data

12:41

that's being collected is being

12:43

accessed by person. because they're saying like this for

12:45

instance, they're saying the facial recognition

12:47

we have filters. Of course, we need facial recognition because

12:49

we need to put ears on your head when you

12:51

want the ears on your head because then you want to

12:53

send it to your friends. But you're saying

12:56

that facial red, that then now that that

12:58

data shows up in China. So if

13:00

you ever went to China, they'd be like, that's that

13:02

person. Yeah. Once the data goes back to Beijing.

13:05

There's all sorts of nefarious purposes that

13:07

can be put to blackmail, espionage,

13:09

all that. And TikTok was

13:11

asked here in Congress recently, you know, is

13:13

this data being sent to

13:15

the Chinese government, they said, no. Truths fine.

13:17

They were asked, is it being sent to the

13:20

CCP? They said, no. It's fine. there's

13:22

a third question which is, is it being sent

13:24

back to people that are themselves members of the

13:26

CCP? And TikTok said that they would prefer not

13:28

to answer that. because it's being sent back to

13:30

the What's the company? ByteDance? ByteDance.

13:33

And, you know, as we understand it,

13:36

basically, all companies in China

13:38

basic I'm not saying all

13:40

are

13:40

are in some way affiliated with the CCP

13:43

because if they weren't, they wouldn't be

13:45

companies. They they would they would be out of

13:47

business. So Is that accurate? Yeah. There's they

13:49

almost all of them have these CCP committees.

13:51

They are embedded with CCP members.

13:53

Even US companies that have offices

13:55

in Beijing. It's the same thing that And at any moment,

13:57

the CCV could be, like, give us your data.

14:00

Right. Oh, no. Under we don't have to give you oh,

14:02

no. This is China. You do have to give us your data.

14:04

I mean so And there's lots of other

14:06

threats as well. So China has said that they wanna

14:08

dominate the world in artificial intelligence

14:10

or AI, but twenty thirty, and they're gonna use it

14:12

for malign authoritarian purposes. They're

14:14

already using AI to track and monitor and

14:16

surveil their own people, and they wanna use that

14:18

technology abroad. So every time that you swipe

14:20

on TikTok. Every time you enter a search term

14:22

on TikTok, that is going back to

14:24

Beijing. It's feeding. It's training. It's improving

14:27

their AI. which need an

14:29

outside of TikTok. It's gonna be used down the

14:31

road for nefarious purposes. That's an interesting

14:33

argument that I hadn't heard before because on the

14:35

one hand, a bunch of sixteen year olds

14:37

are like, I

14:37

don't care if they know who I am. Like,

14:39

I I don't care. Like, I have a Facebook

14:42

profile. I I everybody knows who I am on social

14:44

media. I don't care. Actually, that's the whole

14:46

point of my TikTok following is to, so

14:48

people know who I am. And

14:50

so it's hard to make that argument. We're making a

14:52

different argument, which I I find

14:54

more compelling Because even

14:56

because even if, like, if I was a normal citizen

14:58

too, like, I wouldn't care. I'd be like,

15:00

okay. Tell me what's happening. Okay. China knows

15:02

who I am. So what?

15:04

You know what? I have nothing to hide. Like, I

15:06

I don't care. I I

15:08

do have things to hide now because I'm kinda anti

15:11

China, and I'm at lawmaker. So I

15:13

do care. But a normal citizen probably doesn't care.

15:15

But you're saying wait wait. The argument you're making

15:17

is interesting and worth and worth worth touching

15:19

upon a little bit. It's it's

15:21

helping them like that move was that

15:23

movie recently. I think it was just the

15:25

end of Westworld. Right? It it was

15:27

it was Westworld. It was like the final season of

15:29

Westworld, which got really weird, really liked Westworld, and

15:31

then it was like, I don't know. It's just

15:33

some weird futuristic dystopia. But it

15:35

was it was but the entire point of it

15:37

was they were building AI. They were

15:39

building the most I don't know

15:41

if you've watched all the seasons. Okay. So do are you

15:43

do you know what Westworld is? A little bit. A little

15:45

bit. Okay. So so Westworld, it's it's a

15:47

cool concept at first. Basically, they build this

15:49

amusement park for for where

15:52

it's the Wild West, but they're all robots,

15:54

but they're super smart robots, and they're

15:56

and you can go there, and you can go and shoot out. So you can do

15:58

whatever the hell you want because they're robots doesn't matter.

16:00

But it gets darker

16:02

and darker as the seasons go on. And

16:04

then the robots, like, they become self aware, they try

16:06

to escape. And it just be what you realize

16:08

is that it's been this, like, entire

16:10

experiment to create the the the best

16:12

AI possible where you like, you just

16:14

know everything about everyone. You you can

16:16

predict their movements. You predict what they're

16:18

gonna be, what they're gonna do everything. That's

16:21

kinda what's happening here. This is

16:23

Westworld. Oh, yes. So so

16:25

TikTok. TikTok is Westworld, and then

16:27

eventually, robots themselves, like, if, like,

16:29

kinda destroy the brain. And

16:32

removing TikTok from America is

16:34

kinda like destroying the brain

16:36

of Westworld.

16:37

Right. And so there's three or four I'm

16:40

so proud of myself for that analogy. By the way, I

16:42

just came up with it right now. I'm gonna use it. Yeah. I'm

16:44

really proud of myself. there's there's sort of three or four distinct

16:46

threats. I mean, the one we talked about was, you know, once data

16:48

goes back espionage, the second we

16:50

talked about is, you know, training, feeding, and

16:52

improving their AI. there's a number

16:54

of of of other ones as well. There was a recent

16:56

report that had ByteDance

16:58

officials in Beijing using

17:00

TikTok to surveil the

17:02

specific locations of of

17:04

well, describe the location of specific Americans

17:07

who those Americans were -- Mhmm. -- was not

17:09

disclosed. So that's that that's right. They

17:11

say it's employees or something that they're worried

17:13

about them going to strip clubs or something, but --

17:15

Right. -- the group that was doing the tracking

17:17

usually does that. this report was that these

17:19

were not ticked up employees that they

17:22

were surveilling. So that's that's worse. But the

17:24

other area as well

17:26

is their ability to use it

17:28

for foreign influence campaign, including the content that they're

17:30

sending to our children. Yeah. So obviously,

17:33

in China, TikTok doesn't exist, but there's

17:35

a sister app. That's what's crazy. That's what I wanted to

17:37

bring up. It doesn't exist. Right. It doesn't

17:39

exist. There's a sister app called Doyan, which

17:41

operates very similarly, except what

17:43

it shows kids inside China

17:45

is museum exhibits, science experiments --

17:47

Right. -- and learning material. Yeah.

17:49

Learning materials. Here in

17:51

US, TikTok is showing kids, things like

17:54

a blackout challenge, which kids are

17:56

doing, including underage kids that are

17:58

TikTok. And it it's terrible, but they

18:01

are suffocated in themselves and in many cases

18:03

killing themselves. There's been lawsuits against

18:05

TikTok that have said TikTok intentionally

18:07

served the blackout challenge

18:09

to US kids, including a girl that was ten years

18:11

old who killed herself because

18:13

of this. a Carr blackout

18:15

challenge. I might have really even the courts

18:17

even if those allegations are true, TikTok

18:19

wouldn't be liable in Carr

18:21

because of section two thirty -- Right. -- and for

18:23

other reasons. But to me when you put all these four

18:25

or five things together, including the

18:28

content they're serving our kids and the distinction between

18:30

what they're serving their own kids, This

18:32

is why I've said this is this is China's digital

18:35

fentanyl in terms of the country they're feeding us. Good way

18:37

than what it is. It

18:37

is digital fentanyl. because they also do the real

18:40

Fentanyl. That's also the

18:42

real assholes. So yeah. Yeah.

18:44

And that's what they're sort of bringing up again. I mean, it's they

18:46

they don't the the fact that they don't

18:48

have the same version in their own country. And look

18:50

at this because they wanna censor their country and all

18:52

and all that. There's there's there's

18:55

deeper underlying principles behind

18:57

that, but they obviously see

18:59

harm in this sort of, like,

19:01

unfettered young just

19:03

this this this

19:05

ecosystem where the

19:07

most toxic things possible get posted.

19:09

And, you know, it's not a

19:11

mature environment.

19:12

There's there's addiction problems that

19:14

we have with our kids. It's it's it causes other

19:16

kind of social or psychological problems that

19:19

we're just we're just beginning to understand

19:21

because social media is still relatively new to the

19:23

human brain. Yeah. I'm still

19:25

I'm still I think the jury's still out on

19:27

whether social media in general is a net benefit

19:29

for humanity. maybe

19:31

it's a small net benefit, but there there's some real problems

19:34

that our brains can't figure out. Yeah. And so this comes

19:36

down to what what do we do about it? And where things

19:38

stand right now is the Biden administration's

19:40

treasury department has been

19:42

reviewing TikTok for a long

19:44

time at this point. And there was New York

19:46

Times article a couple weeks ago

19:48

that ported that the treasury department Carr a

19:50

process called CFIUS, which is the committee on foreign

19:52

investment -- Mhmm. -- as a preliminary

19:54

deal in place to allow TikTok

19:56

to continue to operate but that

19:58

same report said that the number two at

20:00

DOJ, Lisa Monaco, was concerned that that deal

20:02

isn't tough enough. Mhmm. And subsequent that Port,

20:04

you also had FBI director Chris Ray testify

20:07

here in Congress and say that the

20:09

FBI has serious concerns with

20:11

testing. So my guess is that the Biden side

20:13

is really turning. I think the time I think

20:15

everybody was mad at Truths. Trump's just

20:17

being, I don't know, whatever. because everything

20:19

Trump says the glut was against -- Right. -- you

20:21

know, so Well, exactly. You've got a Democrat

20:23

senator Carr Warner Chair, sent an intel

20:25

committee who's, you know, gets a a very

20:27

serious briefings almost every

20:29

single day. And he has said that it is TikTok in his words that

20:31

scares the Dickens out of him. So this is

20:33

bipartisan. And I think the Biden administration is

20:35

really struggling with what to do with TikTok.

20:37

Given Chris Rae's statement from the FBI,

20:39

given Mark Warner's statement, apparently the

20:41

number two, Lisa Monika DOJ, think

20:43

it's been very difficult for them to justify allowing TikTok to

20:45

continue to operate, but yet that's where things are right

20:47

now is there's a deal in place that would allow them to

20:49

do it. The crux of that deal is

20:51

something called Project Texas, which would rely on

20:54

Oracle servers and moving a lot of

20:56

TikTok's operations there. The reason why I'm still

20:58

concerned about that is a couple reasons. One,

21:00

There was a recent report that again got leaked

21:02

internal communications from TikTok that

21:04

showed a TikTok official in LA

21:06

asking another TikTok official outside of

21:08

business hours off location detailed

21:11

questions about the location and other information

21:13

about those Oracle servers that would

21:15

host the TikTok content, which to

21:17

me strikes crazy. that they are surveilling. Right.

21:19

They wanna know how to get into the Oracle

21:22

servers if if that should happen. Right. So it hasn't that

21:24

we're So they're associating to potentially

21:26

do this to house TikTok on his Oracle servers. If

21:28

if TikTok is in fact casing

21:31

or surveilling, then we should say time out

21:33

game over we're not we're not going down And

21:35

then finally, another leaked internal communications

21:37

said that on Project

21:39

Texas, Texas, even if we were to

21:41

complete that process, an internal TikTok

21:43

DC official said at the end of the day remains to be seen if product and

21:45

engineering, meaning could still get access to

21:47

the data because at the end of the day, these are

21:50

their tools build in China. So I think this

21:52

comes down to a basic IT test. you

21:54

understand? Is there software backdoors

21:56

that, you know, it would take our

21:58

engineers decades to go through to

21:59

figure out because that's

22:01

I mean, the coding is difficult. Which is why

22:03

I said, I just don't see a path forward. We can be sufficient

22:05

I used to call Project Texas or the Oracle servers

22:07

in Texas. It may be that that's what it is. Yeah. Yeah.

22:09

It could be. just Texas is the best.

22:11

Right. Right. Exactly. We just call for Texas. the

22:14

gold standard. Yeah. Yeah.

22:16

That's

22:16

interesting. So but aren't they they already

22:19

use or Oracle servers. Right? Like, they already their cloud

22:21

service, but but this would this would This would be

22:23

a deeper right right now This

22:25

would have a

22:25

US control over it. Yeah. Right now, Oracle host some

22:27

of their content, Oracle has

22:29

no vision currently really into the way it works.

22:32

This new version of using

22:34

Oracle would put greater

22:36

protections around the data in theory.

22:38

So we haven't made that full transition yet. And and is their

22:40

conversation? I mean, you know, we we heard about

22:42

divesting into a US company away

22:44

from the Chinese parent company.

22:47

So

22:47

so so let's I don't know.

22:49

Let let's imagine Facebook

22:51

bought

22:51

TikTok. I mean,

22:53

they've already copied it, like, with

22:55

Reels. So let's imagine

22:57

they did that. Would that be better? Would

22:59

that be okay? Or would the tools still

23:02

I

23:02

think it'd be better. If you could break the

23:05

corporate between TikTok and the algorithm and the

23:07

CCP in Beijing, then, you

23:09

know, I've got a lot of constructive social media as you do,

23:11

but I wouldn't have the the national Right. But we

23:13

control that. So Well, we told that That's

23:15

it. I don't You know, we have at least authority. Right.

23:17

And I don't see a path forward where where where

23:19

TikTok and Beijing would ultimately agree that. I just

23:21

think that the surveillance value, the espionage

23:23

value, the app vacation even if they aren't allowed to operate in the

23:25

US, is too high to turn the keys over

23:27

to that algorithm to any US based

23:30

company. This might be beyond your scope, but I've always

23:32

been curious. do

23:34

do you think Beijing artificially bumps

23:36

the engagement numbers on TikTok? It seems to

23:38

me that that it's likely the case. I

23:41

mean, just way people get followers, the way people

23:43

get engagement, and a way they

23:45

just don't on other social media.

23:47

I'm sure. I mean, if you look

23:47

at, obviously, where we started Carr some

23:50

of protests taking place right now

23:52

in Beijing. There's no question that, you

23:54

know, CCP authorities are are controlling what

23:56

is displayed on social media there and

23:59

downplaying evidence of those protests --

24:01

Well, that's for sure. -- in inserting other

24:03

content to distract Well, I I just mean when

24:05

you see, like, these TikTok stars with millions of

24:07

followers and and hundreds of thousands of likes. III

24:09

I've heard before that that that's artificially

24:12

boosted to make you like the app better. Give any

24:14

insight onto that. I don't. But, no, it it sounds like

24:16

it makes a lot of sense. This makes like seems

24:18

like a typical kind of bad

24:20

business practices

24:22

by the Chinese. Maybe we

24:24

hit on these these Chinese protesters for for

24:26

for a minute. You were just in Taiwan. Right.

24:29

So what what what what's just what

24:31

give us some takeaways. I I don't know what you were talking about

24:33

with the Taiwanese there. I'm assuming it's

24:37

telecom stuff. So but what

24:39

what what Carr up? Well, Taiwan is just an

24:41

amazing story. I mean, it is a a

24:43

beacon of freedom in democracy that

24:45

sits less than one hundred miles from

24:47

the shores of communist China.

24:49

And obviously, you know, China

24:51

is engaged in very serious saber rattling right now when it comes to

24:53

Taiwan. And I think when you look at our own strategic

24:56

interests, in my view, it's very

24:58

clear with Taiwan. Taiwan right now,

25:00

is the producer of ninety percent

25:02

of advanced chips. So everything from smartphones

25:04

Carr tablets, computers, everything really

25:07

depends on, you know, a

25:09

free Taiwan continuing to be

25:11

there. And also, we look at shipping through

25:13

the Taiwan Strait in that region. It's something like almost

25:15

a quarter of global shipping goes there. So in terms of sort

25:17

of vital US security interests. It's

25:19

clear. What I was there for was meeting with

25:21

my counterparts focused principally on

25:24

cybersecurity and network resiliency.

25:26

It's no secret that after Speaker Pelosi's visit to

25:28

Taiwan a couple months ago, there's

25:30

a serious ramp up in cyber

25:32

activity and cyber intrusions flowing

25:34

out of the CCP. and

25:36

doing coordinated than ever before. So I was meeting

25:38

with my counterparts there, the Ministry of Digital

25:41

Affairs, basically walking through some best

25:43

practices and continuing to

25:45

collaborate on cyber issues and cyber

25:47

security issues and make sure we're learning from each

25:49

other. That's good.

25:50

Glad to hear it. I

25:52

mean, I had an interesting meeting

25:54

with some Taiwanese. And the question I always ask

25:57

is, are you gonna be like Ukrainians? You

25:59

know, will you fight to the

26:01

death? Because that that that informs

26:03

our decisions on how much support you know,

26:05

we want to give. And their answer is

26:07

always yes. Their answer is always no. It's

26:09

it's it's we're we're not letting go of our our

26:11

hard won freedom. And that's

26:13

that's reassuring, but they do need some

26:15

weapons, I think. Yeah. I think it's right. I

26:16

mean, the way I view it is, you know,

26:19

Ji is looking at Taiwan, and he's

26:21

making a very simple mathematical

26:23

calculation, which he's measuring China's

26:26

capacity and he's measuring against

26:28

Taiwan's capacity plus the capacity of

26:30

our allies and capacity meetings, fighting

26:32

will, weapons as as you put the

26:34

formula. Yeah. in

26:36

once he views China's capacity

26:38

as one percent greater

26:40

than the capacity. Those others, then he makes

26:42

move. And you're already seeing what he's doing to to prepare

26:44

for a Ukraine type situation. They're banning,

26:47

you know, leaders in the c

26:49

c Carr from owning property and other

26:51

assets outside of China. just not subject to

26:53

sanctions and other things. And and, you know,

26:55

Taiwan has not historically recently

26:57

at least a very militaristic society.

26:59

They have about I think nine

27:01

months or so of mandatory service now, but

27:04

they're looking at increasing that mandatory They've

27:06

figured it out real fast because the Ukrainians

27:08

had very strong, like, civil

27:11

defense, you like, culture

27:13

and and, like, kinda, like, Texans. I mean

27:15

-- Right. -- because I was, like, you'll never invade Texas.

27:17

And I didn't quite realize the extent that the Ukrainians

27:19

had that as well until I went there, and and and

27:21

we talked about this. It was a main reason

27:24

Kev was taken is because was just a bunch of

27:26

civilians, like, alright, I'm here for my gun.

27:28

Right. I just went for it. Yeah. Taiwanese

27:30

go full Texas and and

27:32

quickly. look if I significant risk of of China

27:34

making a move, you know, where I live, I

27:36

would have the sandbags out already, the machine guns

27:38

ready. Right. And I think that's sort of the the

27:40

level of activity see getting ramped

27:43

up from inside Taiwan. Yeah.

27:45

Okay. But but this conversation is about

27:47

telecoms. So let's talk if if we

27:49

can move also to the

27:51

general conversation about other Chinese technology,

27:55

Huawei, ZTE -- Yep. --

27:57

we hear some we hear a lot better

27:59

rhetoric coming out of

27:59

places like Europe right, where

28:02

I I think it was a British I

28:04

I don't know who it was. I just heard it on the

28:06

radio, but it was a it was a British guy. He had he

28:08

had an accent. and he seemed

28:10

like he had some authority. So I

28:13

assume he was from the government's with that.

28:15

The accent always always always seems like, yeah, they

28:17

give me nobody. but it was it was it was

28:19

it was basically saying, look, this this whole

28:21

this whole cooperation with China thing, this whole,

28:23

like, peaceful it's over. Like, it's

28:25

all over we're not we're not doing it We're

28:27

not saying their enemies, but we're we're definitely

28:29

not friends. It's over. And and that seems to

28:31

be the the broad consensus seems to

28:33

be Europe as broken up to the Chinese

28:35

threat as well. Even though we've as

28:38

Americans have been beating the drum on this for a while, so

28:40

where do we stand on that? Are we

28:42

in a Are we in a better place? What other countries do we have to worry about?

28:44

I'm worried about South America. Where

28:46

where are we? Yeah. You're right. You know, the

28:48

US really led the way on taking an

28:50

appropriately strong, tough approach to Huawei. We did

28:52

this at the FCC a couple years ago. And at first,

28:55

we didn't get much traction globally

28:57

on this issue, but COVID nineteen really helped

28:59

us turn the Carr. People looked at

29:01

China, they realize that they're putting a lot of

29:03

misinformation, disinformation, and they're

29:05

very concerned about it. And so Europe has now caught

29:07

up to the US in terms of taking a tough

29:10

stance on Huawei. That's great. To your

29:12

point, there's other parts of the of

29:14

the world where it's sort

29:16

of over to some extent in terms of how

29:18

deeply embedded Huawei in the CCPR. You

29:20

look at Africa instance. You look at South

29:22

America. As you pointed out, I was in

29:24

Nairobi, Kenya about two hours outside of

29:26

Nairobi down this dusty road,

29:28

small town. There's just Huawei

29:30

billboards everywhere. So so -- Mhmm. -- there's a real

29:32

risk when it comes to Africa and South America, but

29:34

but Europe's in a good situation. In

29:36

the US, continue to take tough action. In fact, just in the past

29:38

couple of weeks at the FCC,

29:40

we finally formally banned

29:43

Huawei and ZTE Gear from

29:45

getting approved by the

29:47

FCC for use in the US, and we

29:49

took similar action on certain

29:51

surveillance technology, hiked

29:53

vision, hintera, and Dow

29:55

Wow their surveillance cameras. Now a lot of

29:57

people say, well, didn't the FCC ban Huawei

29:59

already, and I say, sort of, but we did a couple

30:01

years ago, which we stopped allowing

30:03

federal subsidies to be used to purchase

30:05

Huawei gear. And that went a long way

30:07

because, really, Huawei was selling into these

30:09

smaller rural telcos that needed

30:11

subsidies to buy. So by ending those subsidies two

30:13

or three years ago, people felt

30:15

like we banned Huawei, but there was a loophole

30:17

which was the same companies could buy the

30:19

same gear without federal subsidies and

30:21

put that same gear in the same point in

30:23

their network. And so we finally took action at

30:25

the FCC and said, look,

30:27

There's no device that can be used in this country that doesn't get an

30:29

FCC seal of approval, a microphone,

30:31

a laptop. And we've said we are no longer

30:33

gonna approve going forward Huawei,

30:36

ZTE gear, and that stops everybody

30:38

in the US from using it for any purpose.

30:40

And the question like, you know,

30:42

Mexicans or Columbians would have is, okay, fine. You

30:44

don't want me to buy Huawei? What what should

30:46

I buy? Yeah. And and do we have a great

30:48

answer for that? You know, we're seeing some increased

30:50

competition in that space. There's this new trend towards

30:52

this technology called ORAN, which basically

30:54

is looking to replace the performance of Huawei

30:56

and ZTE in these expensive boxes

30:59

with cheap boxes but high

31:01

performance software. And so we

31:03

are seeing some increased competition and

31:05

choice to non Huawei. No. It makes

31:07

sense. So that can be made by

31:09

anybody because it's software. So you don't need to be fifteen

31:11

billion dollar a year hardware company to

31:13

use. And there's a range of smaller,

31:15

including US providers that are very good

31:17

on software. that can now compete in this

31:19

space. Oh, that that's interesting. I loved I loved

31:21

it to see when there's this leapfrog

31:23

effect in technology where we just we just you

31:25

know what? Let's not compete that technology, just bypass it. Right?

31:27

And that's that's usually the best thing for Americans

31:29

because we're we're usually the better the best at that. And

31:31

these tests are so important. A lot of people sort of step back and say,

31:33

what is the real threat with with

31:35

Huawei with ZTE. And I was, you know, up at a mouse from Air

31:37

Force Base in Great Falls, Montana. I

31:39

mean, there's this is maybe about a hundred or two

31:41

hundred miles from the with

31:44

Canada. I mean, just nothing up there. It's wheat

31:46

fields, big sky country, except,

31:48

you know, dotted throughout that

31:50

area are ICBM missile

31:52

silos. and there's, you know, men and women that are sitting

31:54

there underground ready to push the button at any

31:56

moment. And again, there's nothing up there except

31:59

dotted throughout all of that as well were

32:02

cell towers running high power,

32:04

Huawei, another gear that was

32:06

over provisioned for the needs of

32:08

providing -- Okay. -- self-service to, you

32:10

know, the small, sparsely

32:12

populated areas up there. So that's an

32:14

example of where, you know, Huawei was just suspicious.

32:16

said insuspicious places in this

32:19

country. Yeah. I mean, I I you know, we

32:21

see some cases where with the

32:23

US government doesn't allow the Chinese to buy

32:25

property in your military bases,

32:27

but there there's a a big push to to

32:29

let them buy even less. Yeah.

32:32

a phenomenon. You look now and switching from back to TikTok

32:34

a little bit. You see a lot of sort of government

32:36

officials now, particularly on on the

32:38

left side of the aisle that are on TikTok,

32:41

because they believe it's a way of sort of

32:43

reaching young voters. But it's ironic because

32:45

these same people, they don't actually put

32:47

TikTok on their phones. They take these

32:49

videos and they send it to other people or

32:51

they use burner phones. Mhmm. But to me, that's gotta

32:53

be the biggest admission of a problem. You're not

32:55

willing, you know, to protect TikTok on

32:57

your phone. that's a problem. III thought about the same thing because

32:59

I'm like, I gotta reach these people. But

33:01

I also am like, I don't have time to create even

33:03

more content than we already created.

33:06

know, there's there's reasons for that. But, yeah, even if we did do it, I would definitely

33:08

put it on a burner phone. And it

33:10

it does it kinda makes you

33:14

too if you're using

33:16

it. But but you are, you know, as a public figure, are

33:18

in a difficult position because you do wanna reach people. You

33:20

do realize, you know, quarter of young people say they

33:22

get their news from TikTok. It's

33:24

amazing. They they haven't transitioned. I mean,

33:26

it seems like Instagram tried to basically compete

33:28

with TikTok with using Reels

33:30

I don't know how competitive it's been. I mean,

33:32

obviously, I think people just use both, but --

33:35

Yep. -- you know, I don't I don't think

33:37

it's it's so complicated for the to some extent, for the Biden

33:39

administration because on the one hand, you've got economic

33:41

considerations where you have economic agencies that

33:43

always tend to wanna be not tough

33:45

on China. you got the national

33:47

security agencies and FBI that wanna be tough, but now you've got this third

33:49

element of this political consideration where

33:51

some people are saying you need to be on TikTok

33:54

to reach young voters. I think that debate right now, economic,

33:56

Nasdaq, political is taking place in

33:58

the Biden administration. I just hope that, you know,

34:00

they they end up in the right spot here

34:02

and taking appropriately tough stance

34:04

on on on TikTok. Some people say that

34:06

the window for the administration to act is post election

34:10

before Republicans in the

34:12

House get gabbles, and we'll see if they land it in that window or not. It also

34:14

just kick on here for another number of months.

34:16

I don't know why, again, it should be

34:18

bipartisan. Carr what's

34:21

what's our progress with getting companies like Apple

34:23

and Google to cooperate on here? I mean, you you

34:25

pushed for them to take it off

34:27

their App Store entirely. This is one

34:29

thing I did. You you mentioned this earlier. I wrote a letter to to Apple a while back and said,

34:31

look, you you may not be an expert on national security.

34:33

I'm not asking you

34:36

to make a decision on that and boot TikTok for that reason per se. But are an

34:38

expert on is your terms of service. And Apple

34:40

has a history of where an application

34:44

is sending data to places or pinging servers that

34:46

it hasn't been disclosed to the user. They

34:48

kick that app off the App Store. And

34:50

I said, obviously, these revelations about TikTok

34:54

and these data flows back to Beijing should be enough for you to

34:56

apply your terms of service and boot them

34:58

from that basis. But plainly, Apple

35:00

has not taken that action. Although,

35:03

At least according to Elon Musk, they are

35:05

suggesting in some form or another they may

35:07

take action against Twitter, which to

35:09

me is just is highly ironic.

35:11

Seriously. If you're Holding advertising

35:14

dollars or support from

35:16

Twitter while keeping or expanding

35:18

it on TikTok, then you're certainly

35:20

sending a signal about brand values. I

35:22

just don't think it's the one that you

35:24

intend. I mean, what

35:24

do you think about Apple's business model in

35:26

general? They're they're they're probably the

35:28

most reliant company on China. it's

35:30

concerning. And before I sent Apple letter on TikTok, I actually sent them another

35:32

one which had to do with the censorship

35:35

that they're engaging in with their app store

35:37

in China. There's an application called

35:40

voice of America, which is actually a -- Yeah. -- an operation run

35:43

by US alliance for global media.

35:45

It's funded by Congress, but it's an

35:47

independent journalistic endeavor. Right. Anyways,

35:50

Apple has removed the V0A

35:52

app from the Chinese app store

35:54

-- Right. -- at the request of the

35:57

CCP. And the reason why, at least according to my understanding,

35:59

is because the VOA app comes with

36:02

built in VPN

36:04

and security protections that China doesn't want

36:07

people to to have. Similarly, you see right

36:09

now these, you know, again, unprecedented protests

36:11

taking place in China and

36:13

yet Apple has ended

36:15

your ability to share via airdrop

36:18

broadly photographs with each other. And so I

36:20

think it's it's pretty clear to me that, you

36:22

know, Apple is certainly a cog

36:24

in the censorship wheel

36:26

of the Communist Party. And Carr I just don't think

36:28

it's a good thing. And they will give you all sorts of flower

36:30

rhetoric we stand for human rights -- Yeah. -- that

36:32

we defend democracy, global

36:34

peace through global trade. And I think

36:36

it's just it they're rhetoric founders

36:39

on their own conduct in China

36:41

and their willingness to engage -- Yeah.

36:43

-- censorship is because of the CCP. Yeah.

36:45

they're a very green company but not in the environment.

36:47

Yeah. You know, let's say if if they make money

36:49

off of it. But it's

36:50

disgusting. I mean, it it the Carr

36:53

thing is really that's that's that's

36:56

that's a pretty rep morally speaking, that's

36:58

reprehensible. Yeah. So so you're you're not

37:00

allowing people who are fighting for

37:02

their lives at this point. I believe these protests are

37:04

sparked because, you know, they've been people in their their apartments for

37:06

this insane COVID policy, which, you

37:08

know, I I don't mind the Chinese

37:11

kind of screwing themselves, but I'll

37:14

screwing up our supply chains. I mean, it's it's it's just been a mess

37:16

for the world. And and

37:18

look, the the Chinese people are innocent, and

37:20

they don't deserve that kind of

37:24

treatment. But you know, they should rebel, and that's what they're doing

37:26

now. And for Apple to

37:28

be complicit in in

37:30

basically taking down the rebellion. because what do

37:32

we say about all

37:34

of the it's Cuba or Venezuela or Iran or China or

37:36

wherever or Hong Kong when that was happening.

37:38

You know, what can we do?

37:40

Right? Are we are we gonna send in the

37:42

the CLT we're not gonna send

37:44

in anything, really. But

37:46

what we can do is help them communicate.

37:48

And, you know, at the very least,

37:50

to do nothing, at least let them use what they have.

37:52

And to to the fact that Apple is not

37:55

even letting them use Airdrop to

37:57

that is crazy. really

37:59

isn't you right? You know, when you look around the world

38:01

today in freedom movements Carr, whether it's

38:03

in Cuba, in

38:06

Venezuela, as you noted, the very first thing that happens is people take Apple's

38:08

and they pull up their smartphones and they start recording

38:10

videos Carr they start sharing images.

38:12

And the very first thing that authoritarian

38:14

regimes attempt to do is to shut that down, filtering messaging

38:17

apps. Mhmm. And and so the the most

38:19

important thing that we can do is to

38:22

support you know, the free flow of

38:24

communications over those modern technologies. The idea that Apple is stepping in

38:26

and blocking that is

38:28

just is really disturbing.

38:31

And I think you see a lot of US companies that

38:33

are doing the opposite. Obviously, StarLink, Elon

38:36

Musk's satellite operation delivering

38:38

satellites to Crenshaw help them communicate freely.

38:40

You know, that's the model of what we

38:42

should be attempting to do here. Oh, I said I wanted to

38:44

talk about that. Can can you give me your sense on and

38:47

that'll be the last last topic we hit. I just heard

38:49

boats get called. But, you

38:51

know, StarLink, it it's it

38:53

seems pretty awesome. Kinda depends on

38:56

where you are in the world. It depends on a few things.

38:58

I mean, help help help the audience for the I think

39:00

people kinda know what it is. Yeah. But what does it

39:02

take to get it? Like, can I just have a

39:04

subscription to StarLink? What's going on

39:06

with StarLink? Carr. It's a really

39:08

phenomenal new technology. We've obviously had satellite

39:10

delivered broadband for for years, but it's been very,

39:12

very slow. And what the breakthrough is with

39:14

Starlight is it's you know,

39:16

legitimate high speed Internet

39:18

service. And we've been authorizing it at the

39:20

FCC, but it's great for sort of

39:22

rural communities that otherwise can't get it. think important

39:24

tool in our arsenal when it comes

39:26

to addressing these authoritarian regimes

39:28

that, you know, rather than sending in troops,

39:31

or Palms, you enable broadband and and

39:33

and free communication over that

39:36

technology accelerates the downfall

39:38

of regimes that govern without the consent

39:40

of their people. So I think it's a great technology

39:42

and we need to continue to stand behind it at the

39:44

FCC. And Frank, I think the US government needs

39:46

having Carr arsenal, this

39:48

ability strategically to stand

39:50

up communication services in these authoritarian countries.

39:52

So what does it take? You you need a server

39:54

on the ground that speaks to the

39:56

satellites, and and Elon can just, like,

39:58

direct the satellites to a certain region. Yeah. There's couple things

40:01

you need, but in the main for the user, you

40:03

have a basically a small pizza

40:05

box sized dish. And anywhere you can

40:07

put that and plug that into a power source, you

40:09

can go directly from that dish to the

40:11

satellite and then effectively that dish is a

40:13

hotspot that can power your smartphone or laptop or

40:15

-- Yeah. -- technology. Carr it. I I've I've talked

40:17

about the maritime industry using it, and they they their

40:20

bills go from, like, thousands of dollars a month

40:22

on, you know, bigger ships to for Internet, it's, like, sixty bucks a Exactly.

40:24

It's crazy. And

40:25

this is profitable to to Elon. Well,

40:27

see, at this point, I think their goal is just

40:29

not to to bankrupt themselves and

40:32

we'll see if it ends up being profitable. You know,

40:34

we had awarded them actually some federal subsidies at the FCC about eight

40:36

hundred million in exchange for a commitment

40:38

for them to bring this service to

40:42

thousands of locations across the country

40:44

and the FCC under the new

40:46

Democrat leadership revoked that

40:48

award that we had given them. The

40:50

one good money we're spending on infrastructure. That's the thing. So you have these billions

40:52

billions of dollars for infrastructure. If these

40:54

same people ever get service again, My

40:57

back the envelope math is it's gonna cost us somewhere

41:00

north of three billion dollars in

41:02

federal subsidies to do it when we had an eight hundred

41:04

million dollar agreement with

41:06

StarLink to provide them high speed service

41:08

services. Let's just do things as

41:10

stupidly as possible. Another thing I learned today

41:12

about the infrastructure bill is that actually

41:14

banned this, like, new technology of

41:16

autonomous electric trains because we're talking about, you know,

41:18

the railway strike is the big

41:20

big top right now and somebody brought up. Yeah. And the infrastructure bill, you can't

41:22

build the no. That's Elon Musk also, by the

41:24

way. Right. And, you know, you can't

41:26

build those because there's no union workers all

41:28

working on them. because they're

41:30

autonomous and they're good for the environment. But

41:32

good job Democrats. You're you're a

41:34

bunch of idiots. So

41:36

okay. So so I guess

41:37

my my my last question on on StarLink

41:40

is is this the

41:42

and I I think we've sort of talked about this, but is

41:44

this is this the real answer for rural

41:46

broadband because there's, you know, the other

41:48

conversation is always about, you

41:50

know, laying fiber down, you

41:52

know, hundreds of miles to service

41:55

like thirty people. just incredibly cost inefficient. So

41:58

is is this really the only answer? Is

41:59

is going to be this low orbit

42:02

satellite kind of broadband? I think StarLink and

42:04

similar Carr earth

42:06

orbit technologies, is the answer for that last, you know, one to

42:08

two percent of the country? Because, you know, there's such

42:10

a to your point out a long tail where you

42:12

reach those last couple of communities with

42:15

fiber, it's expensive. I think the lion's share of all connections

42:17

here are gonna be fiber, and we've got billions of dollars

42:19

in infrastructure to potentially do

42:22

it. But this administration

42:24

is basically saying we want fiber and

42:26

only fiber to exist. And if you

42:28

do that, we're gonna run out of the hundreds of

42:30

billions of dollars and we're gonna leave these people

42:32

stuck on the wrong side that you divide. The reality is we have the technology right now whether it's StarLink

42:34

or this new sort of fixed wireless technology

42:38

which is similar but terrestrial to bring families across the

42:40

digital divide right now. So what you're saying is

42:42

we only want fiber, which is a great technology,

42:45

Yeah. But you're really saying it's for the cities. Right. For cities

42:47

and suburbs. Right. But if you're saying only

42:50

fiber, what you're saying to those families is just stay waiting

42:52

on the wrong side that

42:54

years longer than necessary. When you get we get it to you, if we get it

42:56

to, it'd be really good. But that's why we need

42:58

to put back on the table, all the different

43:02

technologies, StarLink, fix wireless and fiber and get the right mix

43:04

based on the geography and the cost. But right now,

43:06

this administration is really

43:08

heavy thumb on the scale

43:10

for fiber I

43:12

think that's a that's a mistake

43:13

and it's gonna leave people behind. Yeah. That's

43:15

unfortunate.

43:15

Optimistic place to

43:18

to leave. Alright. Hey,

43:20

Thanks so much for being on. We had a lot of different

43:22

topics that I think will very

43:24

educational. Good for the audience. Appreciate you coming

43:26

on again. Thanks so much. Enjoy it.