0:00

From CurtCo Media there's no place

0:03

like Hollywood.

0:15

Welcome to another very special episode of Hollywood

0:17

Unscripted: Stuck at Home. I'm Jenny Curtis

0:19

and today I am incredibly excited

0:21

to be virtually sitting down with visionary

0:24

director Julie Taymor. Julie

0:26

creates thrilling explorations across a wide

0:28

variety of mediums. She's the force behind

0:30

the groundbreaking Broadway adaptation of The Lion

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King which debuted in 1997 and

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has achieved the largest worldwide box

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office gross ever across

0:39

any entertainment form. It's amazing.

0:42

Her films include Across The Universe, Frida,

0:44

the Shakespeare films Titus and The Tempest

0:47

and now the Gloria Steinem biopic

0:49

The Glorias. Welcome Julie.

0:51

Thank you so much for joining me today.

0:53

Happy to be here. Thank you. Our specials

0:56

of our show are called Hollywood Unscripted:

0:58

Stuck at Home, because we're all obviously

1:00

stuck at home and as an

1:02

artist who thrives on connection,

1:05

What has the pandemic been like for you?

1:07

I left New York City in March and haven't

1:09

been back and I've been in

1:11

the country and being in the country

1:13

allows me to be isolated with Elliott. My

1:16

other half was the composer who

1:18

I lived with for thirty five years

1:20

and we take enormously

1:23

long walks with our dog and have

1:25

fresh air and he just

1:27

finished the glorious soundtrack last night and

1:29

I'm working on two other scripts both for

1:32

film and one for film and theater so

1:34

that I can do you know I don't have to

1:36

be in rehearsal or on set. So

1:38

a lot of it is doing press for the glorious

1:41

and working on future projects.

1:43

The Glorias is based on the Gloria Steinem autobiography

1:46

My Life on the road. Can you take us through the genesis

1:48

of the project. I know it took some time to get off the

1:50

ground.

1:51

I was given the book by one of my best friends

1:53

when I was in to loom in Mexico on the

1:55

beach. So she just said oh you

1:57

have to read this now OK.

2:00

And I got the book I knew Gloria Steinem

2:02

but not well and I

2:04

was just totally taken with

2:06

her writing the stories.

2:09

I had no idea what her early life

2:11

was like. There are things in her life

2:13

that are similar to mine go on 20 years

2:15

younger so I could identify with

2:17

what she went through. But she is

2:19

going through my mother is very political.

2:22

She was chairwoman and ran

2:24

for state representative and started

2:26

programs in Massachusetts to get women

2:28

involved in politics and she

2:30

wrote a book called Running against the wind.

2:33

So I've dedicated Scooby

2:35

Doo cheese ninety nine point nine. She's

2:37

seen the film five times and

2:40

loves it says is my best film.

2:42

So there were things about it that I was familiar

2:44

with but I didn't think it

2:46

was cinematic. Her book I

2:49

thought it was all over the map

2:51

in a good way a road book and

2:53

I thought well you know what I can't

2:56

get it out of my mind and it's probably

2:58

because her early life with her father

3:00

and her mother that felt cinematic

3:02

that felt like these relationships the

3:04

emotional through line of that. And then the

3:06

whole idea that travel is the best education.

3:09

I love that notion of her journeys

3:11

of a life on the road. So

3:14

I thought about it. I asked Gloria

3:16

if I could have the rights and she thought I was out of my

3:18

mind because it's so

3:20

not a movie. It's you know it doesn't have any dramatic

3:22

through line it's journeys all over

3:24

the place. It's taxi rides it's canvassing

3:27

for this senator or starting a magazine.

3:29

But no linear story.

3:31

And I said Well let me just go to it. Let me try.

3:34

So I had the rights and then I tried

3:36

to think of how to do this.

3:38

And I came up with the notion first of all

3:40

that there would be for Gloria's at least

3:42

a six year old or 12 year old

3:45

Elise to kind of place 20 to 40.

3:47

Julianne Moore plays 40 to 80

3:50

and that instead of having it move

3:52

along you know from young to old

3:54

80 years of this woman's life I

3:56

would have them all gathered together

3:59

on this bus that I call a bus out

4:01

of time. And the Greyhound

4:03

bus in America is such

4:06

an archetypal image of journey

4:09

of travel across the country. So

4:11

this was the structure upon which I hung

4:13

all these disparate stories these disparate

4:15

events of her life somehow

4:18

getting on that bus it's black and white and

4:20

moving through the landscapes

4:23

even abstract landscapes keeps the

4:25

through line going that it's forever travelling

4:27

to the next march on Washington. How many

4:29

did you go to to the next conference

4:31

in a city on women's rights

4:34

to the next speech she might be giving to

4:36

a university to the next talking

4:38

circle and a women's group in San Francisco.

4:41

So this bus was the glue.

4:44

It was the in musical terms

4:46

the leitmotif.

4:47

I like to call it the bus out of time I have it written

4:49

down as the bus of life. Yours is better when

4:51

you landed upon that idea. How

4:53

did you find it. Is it like a light bulb

4:56

where suddenly everything clicks or did it develop

4:58

slowly.

4:59

Well I do this in theater and film

5:01

as a designer. You're trained to do this

5:04

and as a director I also do it with

5:06

actors and I'll give the Lion King as an

5:08

example because have you ever seen it on Broadway.

5:10

Did you ever see the light. OK. So a lot

5:12

of people out there have and

5:15

when I was working on that and

5:17

knowing that I didn't want to put up a carbon copy

5:19

of the movie I thought about what

5:21

is the main idea graph.

5:24

It's like in Chinese brush paintings or Japanese

5:26

brush paintings they have three strokes to

5:28

represent an entire bamboo forest

5:31

just it's an abstraction

5:34

that culling down to an essential

5:36

concept or image. And

5:39

in the Lion King It's the circle. It's obvious

5:41

the circle of life is the first song the

5:43

sun rises which is round with

5:46

forces head mask has this

5:48

circular bamboo framing

5:50

around it the wheels of the

5:52

gazelle will move in circles

5:55

the way that pride rocks circles up out

5:58

the set designer. He took that idea of the circle

6:00

and that's how the mountain comes out of

6:02

the hole in the ground. So that's

6:04

easy. Midsummer Night's Dream in

6:06

my film and theater piece. It was the

6:08

bed the sheets they kept

6:10

becoming various things in the play because

6:13

that's where we dream the glorious.

6:16

It became the bus the bus on

6:18

a road a highway with the yellow slash

6:20

lines.

6:21

That's the recurring image.

6:23

And so it's symbolic

6:25

but it's also real at

6:28

the same time the motion the

6:30

movement that sometimes there's

6:32

one Gloria by herself sometimes

6:34

two or four and sometimes there's a whole

6:37

bus filled with women who hate.

6:39

Gloria Steinem I want to say

6:41

that this film is so desperately needed

6:43

right now but in truth it's desperately

6:46

needed always and that's kind of the point of

6:48

the movie and the point that Gloria is always making

6:51

that the challenges she tackles persist

6:53

and come back to them over and over and over again. But

6:56

what does it mean to have this film coming

6:58

out at this time of turmoil.

7:00

When we started the movie which was before

7:02

the election four years ago it

7:04

was going to be a celebration of the first

7:07

female president. Of course even

7:09

shot Election Night at Samantha

7:11

Powers apartment with Madeleine Albright

7:14

Gloria Steinem and 40 female ambassadors.

7:17

But it was such depressing footage that I

7:19

didn't use it was just

7:21

awful. The room sagged. Now

7:25

right before this election I

7:27

mean we had our premiere at Sundance. That was thrilling

7:29

a thousand people got to see it CHEERING

7:32

standing ovations all of that were

7:34

desperately sad that it's not in movie

7:36

theaters but we had a choice to postpone

7:39

the wide opening or stream

7:41

and we chose streaming because it's

7:44

necessary before the election at least

7:46

a month before we said that people before

7:48

they vote. And also to inspire people

7:50

to register and vote. We had planned

7:52

to be on a Greyhound bus travelling through

7:55

the swing states. Now Gloria and myself

7:57

and a lot of the actors and other women presenting

7:59

the film to groups and having talking

8:01

circles and really talking about

8:04

what choice means like a big

8:06

part of the film and feels more relevant

8:08

since the passing of Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

8:10

We know that Roe v. Wade is on the chopping block.

8:13

If the Supreme Court is more conservative

8:16

and young men and women really have

8:18

to know how hard that law was

8:20

fought for choice as

8:22

you see in the movie in that scene between

8:24

Dolores Huerta and Gloria at the Women's

8:26

Conference doors where there was totally

8:29

a right to life for an anti abortion

8:32

she's Catholic she had 10 kids but

8:34

she comes to a point where she realizes

8:36

that if the government isn't responsible

8:38

to helping these women who have birth after

8:40

birth who's going to take care of them who's taking

8:42

care of the woman and the child and if the government is

8:44

forcing women who do not want to

8:46

give birth at that time there has to be

8:48

a law where a woman carries a baby

8:51

for nine months OK. The father

8:53

of the baby takes care of the baby for the next nine

8:55

months. That has to be some equality

8:57

there. A woman shouldn't be punished

8:59

if she doesn't want to stop her life

9:01

at that moment because other

9:03

people are governing her body

9:06

and her choice. That's just one aspect

9:08

it's the Equal Rights Amendment. We haven't passed

9:10

that yet. We have to realize that more

9:13

than the presidency the Supreme Court has

9:16

ultimate rule over the future of

9:18

people's lives. But I would say

9:20

I'm really concerned about young people

9:23

who really have a future and they haven't

9:25

voted yet a No vote is a vote

9:27

that's just it. And they have to realize because

9:29

you don't think Biden is all that Hoxie

9:32

tortilla or whatever vote against Trump

9:34

everything Obama put in it is now gone.

9:37

We've gone backwards as far as

9:39

racial equality. Female

9:41

equality and a proper

9:43

future for this country the United

9:45

States. Well now it's not it's the divided

9:48

states and that's the way he's playing it.

9:50

So yeah I think unfortunately

9:53

the movie is more important

9:55

now than it would have been if we were just out there

9:57

celebrating Hillary Clinton.

9:59

It's historical but it's fun.

10:02

Did you find it entertaining. I mean I hope it

10:04

is.

10:04

Oh I loved it. Yeah. By the end I was

10:07

full sobbing.

10:07

So I've been surprised at all the men

10:09

I know who are more emotionally move than

10:11

women I know because this is

10:13

about women working together. This is

10:16

important to me. Women supporting women

10:18

on television on ethics. All these stations

10:20

there's way too many feuds as

10:23

we call them there's too much cat fights there's

10:25

too much drama made out of women competing

10:27

with each other for attention jobs

10:30

men. This is not about that.

10:32

Phyllis Schlafly is in our movie but is the real

10:34

woman. We have documentary footage.

10:36

I didn't want to make it about that because the best

10:38

part of Gloria Steinem and all

10:40

those great women is

10:42

that they love being together back

10:44

to the love story they love what they

10:47

were trying to do they succeeded.

10:49

They had fun. They have humor. And

10:51

that's a big part of it.

10:53

At the time of this recording we are less than

10:55

a week after Ruth Bader Ginsburg passing

10:57

and there is a universal mourning

10:59

but I think this is so powerful because it reminds

11:02

not only all women but young people

11:04

especially that there are still amazing

11:06

women to look up to and follow

11:09

their lead. But like you said they have to be

11:11

paying attention. How do you think this film

11:13

will get to the younger audience and do

11:15

you think it will inspire them to change

11:17

or act.

11:18

Well it gets to it by people like

11:21

you. Programs like this you know we

11:23

don't have gobs of money we're not

11:25

a big Hollywood film. So it's not going

11:27

to be through that kind of marketing it's

11:29

going to be through social media and

11:31

our full out trailer came out yesterday.

11:34

So we had a teaser for a couple weeks and

11:36

now there's a trailer and hopefully you see actors

11:39

that you love. You know whether it's Julianne Moore

11:41

and Alicia Vikander Janelle Monae Bette

11:43

Midler Lorraine to song you know they're fantastic

11:46

actors. I'm so proud of them in

11:49

this film. But it's an entertaining

11:51

film and you can see that from the trailer. I

11:53

hope so. I don't find a whole lot

11:56

out there to see I like to watch television

11:58

streaming but I don't see a whole lot of stuff that's

12:00

gripping me right now except documentaries

12:03

frankly. And so as a drama

12:05

I want to be moved and I want to be inspired.

12:08

You talk about Ruth Bader Ginsburg without

12:11

people like the women in my movie.

12:14

And it's not just Gloria it's what's called Gloria's

12:16

without them making their voices

12:19

loud for all the voiceless

12:21

people. Ruth wouldn't have heard the

12:23

call I shouldn't say Ruth I

12:25

should really say Justice Ginsburg

12:27

for respect. But she heard

12:30

it and then the laws

12:32

were changed so the power

12:34

is in the voice that's out there marching

12:38

writing calling and

12:40

we have to be so careful that it's not perverted

12:43

by Trump and his team to say oh

12:46

it's angry and

12:48

socialistic and violent.

12:51

The violence is not coming from the

12:53

peaceful Black Lives Matter movement.

12:55

Not at all.

12:57

So don't get suckered in to becoming

12:59

violent because it will be used. It's what

13:01

happened with the Black Panthers. They couldn't last

13:04

as soon as they had the guns. William

13:06

Barr the period of that time

13:08

the Justice Department closed it down.

13:11

And that will happen now. I mean

13:13

when Trump said I didn't want to

13:15

scare people about Kobe 19 I didn't

13:17

want to cause a panic. I has

13:19

no problem trying to cause a panic

13:22

by saying they're going to come up and come

13:24

into your neighborhoods and take your. He has no

13:26

problem causing a panic. So I

13:28

don't hear people saying that but that is

13:30

his method of using terror to

13:33

try and sway people to vote

13:35

for him and using hatred is

13:37

the playbook of all the dictators. And

13:40

people are falling for it.

13:41

So we really do need young people

13:43

in particular to get out there and vote and

13:45

to really make their voices heard.

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And jump into the production side

15:00

of the film. This was co-written by Sarah

15:02

rule an amazing playwright. But she

15:04

hasn't had much experience in film. So

15:06

how did that collaboration come to be.

15:08

Well I wanted someone who was good at

15:10

emotional scenes and dialogue scenes.

15:13

I had already started and I already

15:15

had the concept of the bus out of time

15:18

and knew that the sort of real flights

15:20

of fancy I would read in there later

15:22

because those are cinematic and that isn't

15:25

really her bailiwick. But she

15:27

read the book deeply like

15:29

I did.

15:30

We looked at all the documentary footage together

15:32

and we pulled out the scenes that we thought

15:34

were really worth elaborating

15:37

on and writing. So it

15:39

was a back and forth. And then at a certain

15:41

point I needed to make it

15:43

more cinematic. So I took

15:45

over the last part and really

15:47

put in my visual ideas and my

15:50

crazy ideas into the script.

15:52

What was the collaboration like with the real

15:54

Gloria in this process.

15:56

Well as she'll say if you ask. She

15:58

just is like I trust you.

16:00

Go ahead. She loved the idea

16:03

of before Gloria. She said to me I don't understand.

16:05

How did you come up with that idea. How did you know.

16:07

And I said no. How did I know what.

16:10

And she said that I often see my younger self

16:12

or other self on a street corner

16:14

or across the room and I think well what would

16:17

they think if they knew what I know now. What

16:19

would they have done. Well I feel empathy for

16:21

them because later in other books she wrote

16:23

something like that how she sees her other selves.

16:26

I never read that book. So this was a wavelength

16:28

that must have been on together.

16:30

And she was always there when I would

16:32

call her up. You know like the barbershop scene.

16:35

That's not in any book. She told us that story

16:37

because she always wanted to be a dancer. So she talked

16:40

about how when she was twelve and her mother

16:42

was really mentally unbalanced

16:44

she had tap dance shoes I

16:46

mean chiefs tap dancing anything she had the shoes

16:49

and a mother couldn't stand the sound so

16:51

she'd do it outside and a little girl came and

16:53

invited her to a barbershop and gave her tap

16:55

shoes and it's where you first see Gloria

16:58

crossing the racial boundaries

17:00

where she immediately very easily became

17:03

friends with this young little girl. And

17:06

Gloria was there to tell me stories that weren't

17:08

in the books. And she also

17:11

helped get Bette Midler. You know she

17:13

thought it was a great idea to have bet she

17:15

wrote the letter to janelle. She was an executive

17:17

producer from a distance but she

17:19

helped in those major points. And she also helped

17:21

get the money for the film because we couldn't

17:24

get it from Hollywood so she went to

17:26

a not for profit organization who

17:28

had the money and loved her and

17:30

knew that if there was any money ever made

17:32

from the sales of this film the recoupment

17:35

would go to women's causes.

17:37

Now that will not probably happen because

17:39

we're streaming sadly but

17:41

it's more important for them and for us

17:43

that people are moved by the movie that

17:46

they're really inspired so that's

17:48

OK. And the other thing is she met with

17:50

Julianne and Alisha in my apartment

17:52

and answered their questions and they listen to

17:54

her speech patterns and she was accessible.

17:57

So Helen Mirren once talked about how

17:59

you use all kind of elements to

18:01

encourage a performance. And so I'm

18:03

really wondering what did you use with

18:05

Elise and Julianne to create Gloria

18:08

with them and how did they connect over it.

18:10

They're both formidable actresses who

18:12

did their research listened to the tapes

18:15

saw the documentaries we talked about

18:17

the moments I think that most surreal moments

18:19

where I had to coerce them basically

18:21

I mean I had to explain to them that no

18:24

this isn't real because these are actors who

18:26

really are grounded and they like reality.

18:28

And that sequence where we go into

18:30

a tornado and the women or the three

18:32

witches and all of that. I kept saying

18:35

No I understand this isn't reality. This

18:37

is an inner thought that I'm putting

18:39

out there dimensionally. And that's

18:41

one of these things that's very hard for anybody

18:44

to know until they see it at the end because

18:46

they don't see the tornado. They don't know when they're

18:48

on a wire being a witch being thrown

18:50

around in the studio that it's actually

18:52

going to look okay or a Julianne

18:54

Moore for instance had to run on a conveyor

18:56

belt on a running machine. She had no image

18:59

of the highways and the multiple Gloria's.

19:01

So that's hard when you're a director

19:03

and some of the work is actually not

19:06

understood until the final

19:09

product. They have to trust

19:11

me so I can show them pictures

19:13

and I can show them ideas but they need to

19:15

feel grounded. It's giving them confidence

19:18

that I know what I'm doing.

19:20

Did they work together.

19:22

No. They met with Gloria all at

19:24

the same time but except for the scenes

19:26

where they were on the bus together they

19:28

never had scenes together and they had their

19:30

own dialect coaches. So they really

19:33

were concentrating on their part of

19:35

being Gloria and I felt no

19:37

reason to have them try to be

19:39

similar. The unifying person

19:41

is Gloria. That's the thing that connects

19:43

them. So Alicia is different just

19:46

like her younger self is different. Our six

19:48

year old self is different. You have to see

19:50

that you're not full blown Gloria Steinem

19:53

with the streaks in the glasses and this magazine

19:55

when you're six or when you're 22.

19:57

That's why I love the scene where Alicia sits

19:59

next to her on the bus later on

20:02

and says Didn't you ever want to have children.

20:04

And the older Gloria says no. And

20:07

the young one says Oh yes I did.

20:09

You know you may not remember but there was a point

20:11

where maybe she didn't want and she just

20:13

thought she'd have them because even the 12

20:15

year old says I'm going to have a house and three kids

20:18

and a golden retriever and a ping pong table

20:20

in my basement because that's what at

20:22

that age in her life women were supposed

20:24

to expect and nothing more.

20:27

It's good enough. So I

20:29

didn't feel the need that they should match

20:31

each other and there was enough matching because

20:33

the two women can look like the younger

20:36

Gloria and the older Gloria. And then of course

20:38

the hair.

20:39

OK so if you were on

20:42

the Julie's bus out of time.

20:44

Oh God. What's the conversation you would be

20:46

having with yourself.

20:48

Well I've never thought of that such a good question.

20:50

Which age.

20:51

So there's the 20s Julie

20:53

and the 40s Julie and then

20:56

the now.

20:56

JULIE Well I know what the eight year old Julie

20:58

would say. I want to be a ice ballerina.

21:01

Seventeen year old was interested

21:03

in anthropology and travel.

21:06

That's not dissimilar from doing what I'm

21:08

doing now you know which is people.

21:11

I'm an anthropologist mythology folklore

21:14

shamanism those are things that I studied

21:16

back then and I'm still reflecting.

21:19

That's why Rafiq he became a woman.

21:21

I look back at my 22

21:24

year old self in Indonesia and am

21:26

astounded at certain bravery

21:28

certain kinds of things I did certain foolhardy

21:31

things as well like walking on the

21:33

rim of a volcano that was erupting in Bali.

21:36

I know I wouldn't do that now because

21:38

I fell and had an accident.

21:41

So I had blinders on

21:43

for a lot of my career. I didn't see

21:45

misogyny. I didn't see sexism if

21:48

I let those things enter my

21:50

view. I wouldn't have been able to get anything

21:52

done. Now I am much

21:55

more aware of that. So

21:57

I have to remind myself now

22:00

of what I did when I was younger. I don't

22:02

feel wiser now. I feel

22:05

a little bit more savvy and maybe cautious.

22:07

So I have to remember the time

22:09

I spent four years travelling in Indonesia

22:11

and a theatre company I did all kinds of things I could never

22:14

do. Now I have to remind myself

22:16

how I did it. It's like when things

22:18

are dark and difficult Spider-Man era

22:21

was really the lowest point I

22:23

go That's nothing. I was an Indonesian

22:25

a volcano that was erupting. I was there

22:27

where there was a tsunami where my theatre

22:29

company was staying. I was there when

22:31

I was the only white woman for four

22:33

years and felt like an outsider

22:36

but still did these things so for me

22:38

I look back at my younger self and she tells

22:41

me this ain't anything don't

22:43

worry about it.

22:44

It also helps me to have perspective

22:46

on the United States because I've

22:48

travelled and lived so much outside

22:50

of this country and I feel that America

22:52

is just too full of itself and

22:55

that what's happening is it's getting a big slap

22:57

in the face because the rest of the world is going what

22:59

happened. You had the greatest democracy

23:01

in the world and you're letting it go you

23:03

know.

23:04

So we're on the bus and we're looking back

23:06

at your career. I want to briefly

23:08

talk about Lion King because I know you've been

23:10

talking about it for decades but it

23:12

is such a major part of your legacy.

23:15

You created a form of theatre that brought people to

23:17

theatre who didn't care about

23:19

theatre which is just amazing

23:22

and mind blowing and you've launched so

23:24

many more productions of it. And what is

23:26

the Lion King to you. I guess it's

23:28

the question.

23:29

Well yes it's 25 years old

23:31

now. Ninety million people have

23:33

seen it on every continent

23:35

but Antarctica. So the penguins

23:37

they're not interested. But everybody else

23:40

I've done versions in Mandarin

23:42

in Shanghai and Portuguese in Brazil

23:45

in Spanish in Spain and Mexico

23:47

in all these languages we've done

23:49

companies in the local

23:51

language and changed the humor

23:53

accordingly.

23:54

It's also just another statistic.

23:56

The most successful entertainment in

23:58

the history of all entertainment not just

24:00

theatre but including film television.

24:02

So as a woman that's pretty awesome. You know

24:05

people don't really know that but that's

24:07

the truth more than Star Wars. We

24:10

as women hate touting our whore tooting

24:12

or whatever you say but we gotta get over

24:15

that a bit because it does help other women

24:17

to know that not only did I create something

24:19

that was entertaining but that it was extremely successful.

24:22

But I will say what it did is two

24:24

major things for me which is it's

24:26

given me freedom to do the projects

24:28

that I want to do because I really

24:30

have to be passionate about every

24:33

project I have to it takes too much of my

24:35

everything. Everything you know I don't

24:37

have children I have Elliot who's my other half

24:39

for 35 years happily unmarried

24:42

and he's my main collaborator he's the composer.

24:45

He won the Academy Award for Frida. He did

24:48

most of the arrangements for across the universe

24:50

and the score he's done all my

24:52

theatre work except for Spider-Man and

24:55

The Lion King we done opera

24:57

and everything so I have tremendous

25:00

freedom because Lion King is financially

25:02

successful. But what is more important

25:05

to me is the spiritual

25:07

nature of that piece that

25:09

it transcends cultural limitations

25:12

and boundaries. I can go to Japan and

25:14

because it's a coming of age story

25:17

an archetypal story that every culture

25:19

has which is the coming of age of

25:21

a young man. Mostly

25:24

though I did make not part.

25:26

Much more important in the Broadway show

25:28

as opposed to the movies. I think that this

25:31

is the connecting thing between us as humans

25:33

and that's what art is about. It's to say

25:36

people often India are going to see the glorious

25:38

and feel as passionate about this

25:40

American woman who is inspired

25:42

by India and what she learned in India

25:44

as we would be. And so it's this

25:47

trans cultural aspect of

25:49

the musical that I'm so proud of. And

25:51

I know this is weird because it is Disney

25:53

but it deals with death and

25:56

when little kids come it's

25:58

what do you call it. It's almost a exorcism

26:00

of pain when the little boy turns

26:03

to his father similar to move closer

26:05

and says Will you always be there for me.

26:08

The father knows what he's asking

26:10

and he says to the young Simba look

26:13

at the stars the great kings

26:15

of the past looked down upon us

26:17

from those stars they live in

26:19

you. They live in me they're

26:21

watching over everything we see that's

26:24

one of my favorite songs that metal and wrote

26:26

with the South African chorus without

26:28

being a specific religion. It's a very

26:30

religious spiritual in the best way

26:33

song which is I may not

26:35

be here physically but I am here

26:37

with you spiritually and for a fact.

26:40

I have had people tell me stories like

26:42

one that really moved me was

26:44

about a family from somewhere in the United

26:46

States who had bought tickets the first

26:48

year way in advance

26:50

because I couldn't get tickets to the Broadway

26:52

production and the

26:54

little girl had died in the family

26:57

that year. And so when they were supposed

26:59

to come to New York they didn't want to come.

27:01

Everybody said you've got to bring the little

27:03

boy you've got to go anyway. So

27:05

this is what was told to me they're sitting there with

27:07

their young son still in mourning

27:09

and watching this scene that I just described

27:12

and a little boy turned to his parents

27:15

and he said is with

27:17

us isn't she. Exactly.

27:19

I see your face now.

27:22

If I was able in any way

27:24

as an artist to help that child

27:26

through mourning through what death is

27:28

then I've done my job as an artist because we were the

27:30

first shamans. That's what a shaman

27:33

is. It's a cross between director

27:35

and entertainer and a

27:37

psychiatrist and a leader of the community.

27:40

And that is the origins of theater.

27:43

Theater is to take you through the droughts

27:45

the blizzards the fires of California

27:48

the hurricanes of the South

27:51

the misery of our political system

27:53

and the entertainment is there

27:55

to get you to get

27:57

out your fears to release

28:00

you of the tension and to share

28:02

that in an environment

28:04

with other people. The same

28:07

thing happened with Greta when I was in Australia a woman

28:09

told me she had cancer and then when she saw

28:11

how Frida dealt with pain it changed

28:13

her whole attitude towards what

28:15

she could do and how she could live through the pain.

28:18

So these are the important things for me

28:20

as an artist. It's how we

28:22

can really help our communities

28:25

and our fellow human beings through

28:27

entertainment but also through thought

28:30

and stories that get us out

28:32

of ourselves.

28:46

Hi I'm Robert Raz host of cars that matter

28:49

you might be wondering what makes a car madder and I have

28:51

a feeling you already know the answer.

28:53

Some cars have changed history some you

28:55

can hear a mile away some have lines

28:57

that make your heart skip a beat if

29:00

a car is ever made you look twice then I think

29:02

you know the ones that matter.

29:04

Joining me as I speak with designers collectors

29:06

and market experts about the passions of drivers

29:09

and the passions we drive cars that matter

29:11

wherever you get your podcasts.

29:20

And your first feature film was

29:22

Titus which was a choice

29:25

for your first film what an undertaking

29:27

because the scale was huge and the cast

29:30

was amazing. What was that experience

29:32

to have that be your first foray into

29:34

this medium.

29:35

Well I had directed the play

29:37

off Broadway before the Lion King

29:40

and I had already felt that it

29:42

was the most daunting Shakespearean

29:44

play the most violent thing I've ever seen

29:46

in my life.

29:47

Horrifying and scary and

29:49

very. Of our times right

29:51

after the success of The Lion King. I

29:54

remember Spielberg offering me

29:56

the cat in the hat. And I thought to myself well

29:58

if the cat is black maybe but

30:00

more to the point I felt I don't want

30:03

people to think of me as a family children's

30:05

theater. You know I just didn't want to be put into

30:07

any kind of box whatsoever. I

30:09

knew that Titus was an extraordinary

30:12

maligned Shakespeare play people

30:14

about bringing all over the top.

30:17

I said this is the violence

30:19

of today whether it's honor killings remember

30:21

the Menendez brothers or Columbine.

30:24

You know the surge of violence in America

30:26

that wasn't just inner city but was

30:28

young middle class people. Oh

30:30

my God. How did that happen. Now

30:32

we just take it for granted because school shootings

30:35

this is just a hideous part of everyday

30:37

life in America. But in 98

30:40

I think we opened Christmas Day nineteen

30:42

ninety nine right before the millennium turn.

30:45

I thought I'm going to ask Anthony Hopkins

30:47

and we're going to make this my first feature sort

30:49

of the opposite of the line although

30:52

people say the ranking is based on Hamlet

30:54

but whatever. And I loved it

30:56

I wanted to work with very great actors

30:58

and rich language. And we shot

31:00

on location in Italy.

31:02

I read that during the shoot and maybe to

31:04

this day you and Anthony Hopkins

31:06

didn't necessarily agree on

31:08

Titus as mindset.

31:10

No it wasn't an easy ride

31:12

for either one of us together. But as

31:14

I like to call it was like two stones when

31:17

they rub against each other fire happens.

31:19

So I think that this is

31:21

very well known and Tony has said this that

31:23

he didn't want to act after Titus you know it was sort

31:25

of the pinnacle and the end of his

31:28

career. Of course that didn't stick at all. But

31:30

that play is so awful.

31:32

I mean you have to go to a very dark place.

31:34

The young boys who played the rapist that

31:36

were very racist parts to

31:39

Aaron Blackmore Aaron

31:41

the Moors part is very

31:43

much based on certain things from Iago

31:45

the kind of malevolent manipulation

31:48

and concoctions. But the only

31:50

two black roles in the Shakespeare

31:52

canon or Othello and Aaron

31:55

Moore and Aaron played by Harry Lennox

31:57

is one of the greatest parts with the greatest language.

32:00

Now for Hopkins to go to the place

32:02

where Titus is ready to

32:04

bake his enemies children into

32:06

pies and feed them to his mother

32:08

is a very dark place for him to

32:11

go to a place where he has to experience his hand

32:13

getting chopped off is hard.

32:15

And he went there and he went to the

32:17

madness and it was

32:20

happening to him as it was

32:22

going on. So we didn't have a disagreement.

32:25

It was in front of my eyes. You know it was scary.

32:27

And yet I would see the rushes every

32:29

night and go Oh my God this is unbelievable.

32:32

So I knew that it was going to be

32:34

great to see. It is one of his greatest

32:36

performances ever. People haven't seen TITUS

32:38

It's just extraordinary.

32:40

Van you did Frida and it was spearheaded

32:43

by Salma Hayek. How did she

32:45

connect with you. How did you come onto the project and

32:47

what was that experience like.

32:49

Well I got a call from Mark Gil at

32:51

Miramax in New York City saying

32:53

Salma Hayek is on her way to the airport.

32:55

But if you will meet her she would love to talk

32:57

to you about directing potentially

32:59

the film of Frida Kahlo life. And I said

33:01

sure. So Salma Hayek age 34

33:04

stunning still stunning. But

33:06

she comes into my apartment and you

33:08

know I'm just thinking oh God if I were a lesbian

33:10

this would be should I

33:12

probably get even say that now the same way.

33:14

But she just was overwhelming

33:18

physically and then she sat down on my

33:20

couch and for two hours told

33:23

me about Frida Kahlo with knowledge

33:26

and depth and intelligence and exuberance

33:28

and I just sat there because I liked Diego

33:30

Rivera's paintings I wasn't sure about Frida

33:32

Kahlo but I'd spent a lot of time in Mexico

33:35

with Elliot. We created a piece called Quan

33:37

study in. And so I knew Mexican

33:39

artists I knew Mexican culture. I

33:41

loved it. And she

33:43

made me feel that if she can entertain

33:46

me for two hours I surely can do a film

33:48

and be her midwife help her get her baby

33:51

up there and then I fell

33:53

in love with it. Once I delve deeply

33:55

into the material and into her paintings

33:57

and the autobiography that is in those

33:59

paintings and I love the actors

34:01

that I was able to cast I love them.

34:04

Alfred Molina Valeria Galeano

34:07

it was just a tremendous cast. GEOFFREY

34:09

RUSH All of it. Diego Luna. Nobody

34:11

knew who he was then but did she say hello

34:13

ugly when she has her first love

34:15

affair at age 15 with him.

34:18

It was great. It was really great. Sama

34:20

has since said it was a very hard process because

34:22

of Harvey Weinstein. I'm not asking any

34:24

details about that but I'm really curious.

34:26

Looking back at your work if that

34:29

affects your memory of the piece or your feeling

34:31

toward the piece or does the piece stand

34:33

alone away from the experience

34:35

except for when Harvey would show up or

34:38

in post-production where he tried to manipulate

34:40

everything it was a tremendous experience.

34:42

He wasn't in Mexico all the time but

34:44

when he came it was difficult for her and

34:47

I would have to coax him I'd have to do that. Female

34:50

flattery playing around

34:52

things that you learn so that he doesn't

34:54

feel like he's not coming up with every idea.

34:57

I was way too old for him to be

34:59

interested in me. That didn't happen

35:01

with me with Salma. Yes he

35:03

was extremely disgusting and rude.

35:06

I don't know all the details of that. I

35:08

know that he wanted very much to have lots of

35:10

sex scenes in the movie. He wasn't interested

35:12

in her limping as if he didn't even know

35:14

that absolutely the most important event in

35:16

her life was the bus accident. He was like Why

35:18

is she limping when he saw that first week of

35:20

dailies and it just shocking frankly.

35:23

But I managed because I had such

35:25

a good team and Salma was a great

35:27

producer. She protected

35:29

the process and we had

35:31

fun. It was great Rodrigo Prieto who

35:33

shot Gloria's shot Frida

35:36

and I loved working with my Mexican

35:38

team. It was just great.

35:40

It was during post that he was unbearable

35:42

because he just kept wanting to get rid

35:44

of politics or get rid of the Father

35:47

and he thinks that he makes a film better. But

35:49

honestly that's just ridiculous.

35:51

Shorter isn't better shorter shorter

35:54

and he didn't understand really what it was

35:56

about that movie that people really

35:58

loved.

35:59

He did later one

36:01

of my all time favorite movies is

36:03

across the universe to tell

36:06

you how much I love that film and I actually

36:08

had the gift of having Jim Sturges on the show

36:10

a couple of months ago and he was talking

36:12

about the rehearsal process with you

36:14

because it was his first film. It was OK because

36:17

it was a theater rehearsal process where you got

36:19

to workshop the piece.

36:20

Oh it was so great. I went

36:22

to London to look for Jude the part

36:25

and ended up finding Jude and Max

36:27

because Jo Anderson auditioned

36:30

and said I'm not Jude. Can I

36:32

audition for Max. I said Well this is weird.

36:34

Can you do an American accent. He said Yeah I can.

36:37

And he just took the energy. He just was Max.

36:39

He wasn't you. So those two

36:41

had never been to America came over and

36:43

tore up New York City. And

36:46

then we had Evan Rachel Wood who had just

36:48

turned 18 I think was known for

36:50

the movie 13 and was a complete

36:52

David Bowie fanatic and I told her I'm going to try

36:55

and see if I can get David Bowie for Mr.

36:57

Kite. We did. We went for Eddie

36:59

Izzard but she would wear his t shirt

37:02

and then the other lead characters

37:04

two of them were singers Dana Fuchs

37:07

and Martin Luther.

37:09

They were singers who I auditioned

37:11

and could really act. And then T.V. Carpio

37:14

who is a fabulous actor singer.

37:16

So we had a small band

37:19

six musicians. We were in a classic

37:21

Broadway rehearsal room a couple

37:23

of rooms. We played around

37:25

with Danny as loved the choreographer whose birthday

37:28

it is today. Happy birthday Danny and call him

37:30

up after this. And we had about

37:32

15 phenomenal dancers who

37:34

worked on all the different concepts.

37:37

Then there's a thousand dancers in the film but

37:39

you know you had to work them out ahead of time and

37:41

then that core group would then teach

37:43

everybody else.

37:44

It was so much fun. Elliot worked

37:46

on the arrangements and then T Bone

37:48

Burnett joined in and we had to

37:51

record in advance the tracks.

37:53

Although 90 percent of the movie is sunrise

37:56

and way before Labor's Rob. In fact

37:58

they acted like they were the first but frankly

38:00

they did less live than we did. But you

38:02

had to have it be live. We wanted it

38:05

but even if it's love you have an earbud

38:07

in there just in case there's too many

38:09

airplanes. Some of the locations you

38:11

just can't get good enough sound but

38:14

it was so much fun. And you know eventually

38:16

yes I would love to do it as theater we'll see.

38:18

I saw that Evan Rachel would shut up to her first

38:20

day on set and it was if I fell and she wasn't

38:22

aware that she would be singing live.

38:24

That's exactly right. She thought that because

38:26

we had pre-recorded that she would be lipstick and I

38:28

said don't worry Evan it's always there

38:31

in case there's a problem like Joe

38:33

didn't like singing live because you really didn't

38:35

think he was a singer at all. Fact is

38:37

he's a fabulous singer. He sang live and all

38:39

the rehearsals. But we were really able to

38:41

mix it if I fell in love with you.

38:43

It's not only brilliant but it was her first

38:45

take and why I say it was brilliant.

38:48

We were going to make a cut from

38:50

that first location in a kind

38:53

of broken down building to the party

38:55

much earlier and we'd set up a circular

38:57

track around her. So it's no editing.

39:00

It's one shot where the camera moves

39:02

around her and her singing was

39:04

so brilliant and her acting

39:06

that I said Don't you know we just

39:09

kept moving so much more of

39:11

the song is sung in one shot and

39:13

it's the fear and fragility which

39:15

is perfect for that moment when

39:18

she's looking at Jude and she's not sure that

39:20

she can handle falling in love with.

39:22

It's so real that I didn't read

39:24

any other takes just like the Gloria's

39:26

it's kind of this piece that's always

39:28

relevant because the cyclical nature

39:31

we're back in these riots and

39:33

these young people being awakened

39:35

to activism and she has this line I

39:37

should be radical you should be radical we should all don't

39:39

be radical it just

39:41

rings so true.

39:43

Now when he tries to say as many people

39:45

are saying now you know are you kidding

39:47

you won't get anywhere it won't change anything.

39:49

And she gets really angry member in the Laundromat

39:52

where she says listen I would lie

39:54

down in front of a tank if it would

39:56

bring Max home. You don't think it's

39:58

worth trying. That's the moment that they

40:00

fall apart. She's not going off

40:02

to war but the responsibility of

40:04

everybody to have the government listen.

40:07

The Vietnam War because young

40:09

men were drafted. They became more involved

40:11

because it was affecting them personally.

40:13

You know if we had a draft now people

40:16

would be much more out there in the streets

40:18

as Gloria said at the Women's March she

40:20

said sometimes pressing send

40:23

is not enough your voice and

40:25

your activism is critical. And

40:27

I'm so proud of the people who

40:29

have gone out on the streets in this very

40:31

scary time put on their masks

40:33

and marched for the Black Lives Matter movement.

40:36

This is incredibly impressive

40:38

moving critical and they should be marching

40:41

for women's rights and racial rights

40:43

and all of those rights now if they're

40:45

not marching then they're making phone calls and saying

40:47

listen guys we've got to vote because this

40:50

is going to be the rest of this

40:52

generation's future and the next generation

40:54

I want to wrap up on my favorite question

40:57

to ask what does it mean to you to

40:59

have a life in very telling.

41:01

Well it is my life.

41:04

Your life is to use whatever

41:07

talents I have or imagination

41:09

I have to make other people's lives

41:11

fulfilled to entertain and

41:13

to move them. That's kind of what as

41:16

I said when I talked about The Lion King. What

41:18

gives me the most joy is people's reactions.

41:21

I know women. Lot of women will identify and

41:23

love this. But when I've had some of the men

41:25

around me right at the beginning like the sound

41:27

designer in post when Michael

41:30

told me how he just was weeping

41:32

through the whole movie I was so

41:34

touched.

41:35

And that's happened more than once because think

41:37

about it. Men don't see movies about

41:39

women in the workplace just women.

41:42

Most movies about women or girls

41:44

is about I want this boyfriend my

41:46

husband's beating me I wish I could marry him.

41:48

It's a romance. You know this boss is stepping

41:50

over the line. Whatever it is their lives

41:53

are geared towards their male partners.

41:55

I made a choice like Gloria did in her book

41:57

that this is about women

42:00

moving together in this movement

42:02

and that the men are secondary characters

42:05

not that they're not important to Gloria's real

42:07

life of course they are. But you can only focus

42:09

on one aspect. And so when the men

42:11

say that I feel so gratified because

42:13

the idea that this would be a chick flick

42:15

or this would be something just for women although women

42:18

are half the population is so

42:20

ridiculous.

42:21

This is about people. If you're a feminist

42:23

you can be male doesn't mean you're a woman.

42:25

And feminists are not anti male. They're about

42:27

equality pure and

42:29

simple. Is that you respect

42:32

both genders equally.

42:34

And I love this reaction

42:36

and I love their surprise because it's new

42:38

to them to see women working like that

42:41

and loving like that loving each other supporting

42:43

each other.

42:44

Julie I cannot thank you enough for

42:47

taking time out of your day to come talk to me.

42:49

This has meant the world to me

42:51

because I am such a fan. Jenny thank you

42:53

it's been terrific. Have a good one. Bye bye. Hollywood

42:57

unscripted was created by Kurt Commedia. This

43:00

special episode of the stuck at home series was

43:02

hosted and produced by me Jenny Curtis.

43:05

With guest. Julie Taymor co-produced

43:08

and edited by Jay Whiting. The

43:10

executive producer of Hollywood unscripted as Stuart

43:13

Halprin. The Hollywood unscripted

43:15

theme song is by Celeste and Eric dick.

43:18

Make sure to subscribe so you don't miss any special

43:20

episodes of Hollywood unscripted stuck at home

43:22

and we want to hear from you. Leave us a rating and a review.

43:24

Tell us what you like what you don't like. Maybe

43:27

we can be better.

43:28

Stay safe and healthy and thanks for

43:30

listening. Kurt

43:37

Carr media. Media.

43:40

For your mind.