0:14

Welcome to horrible

0:14

history. I'm Rachel Everett

0:16

Lozon.

0:17

And I'm Emily Barlean, if

0:17

you haven't met us yet, Hello,

0:21

thank you for joining us. Rachel

0:21

and I are co hosts are obsessed

0:26

with true crime and all things

0:26

horrible. Probably because we

0:30

are anxiety ridden overachievers

0:30

that want to be able to plan for

0:34

anything and everything.

0:36

And we love traveling,

0:36

and we love history, especially

0:40

when you can combine them into

0:40

their cities around the world.

0:44

But no matter how many travel

0:44

brochures we read, they never

0:47

seem to share the stories we

0:47

want to hear about, you know,

0:51

the murders and called said

0:51

horrible natural disasters. Oh,

0:54

my.

0:56

Yes, so we're gonna just

0:56

go ahead and take it upon

0:58

ourselves to dig right on into

0:58

the horrible histories of cities

1:02

all around the world. And our

1:02

brains must be connected, which

1:06

we know they are because we're

1:06

the same person. Because we're

1:09

both traveling essentially to

1:09

the same place. Boston,

1:12

Massachusetts lost in wicked

1:12

awesome.

1:16

I mean, I lived in New

1:16

Hampshire for six years. So I, I

1:19

could probably tap into the

1:19

Boston but not so much. I just

1:22

now you go with your friend

1:22

Sarah to get into her car. Ca,

1:27

that's all I got. Yeah, if it

1:27

ends in an A, it has to be an R.

1:30

And if it ends in an R, it has

1:30

to be an A. So like, I'm picking

1:33

up my friend Sarah and my car.

1:33

Got it. But I'm wicked late.

1:39

Technically. I'm headed all

1:39

around Massachusetts. But I am

1:45

starting in Boston. And it's our

1:45

podcast. So we do what we want.

1:49

Speaking of this week, we are

1:49

doing a bit of a format change,

1:53

because we are such

1:53

overachievers. And we've

1:56

realized that our research has

1:56

gotten pretty intensive and the

2:00

episodes are getting longer. And

2:00

as much as we love talking to

2:04

each other we know that you guys

2:04

are our morbid curious audience

2:08

are here for the horrible. So

2:08

instead of the small talk, we're

2:12

gonna start just diving right in.

2:14

Yes, but if you do want

2:14

more of the chitchat, if you

2:17

want to get to know us better,

2:17

you can do two things, you can

2:21

catch our lighter, tiny

2:21

episodes, which are called

2:24

terrible today and they drop on

2:24

Tuesdays, we're also going to be

2:28

launching something very

2:28

exciting called Happy Hour with

2:31

horrible history. And that will

2:31

be for our $5 patrons which will

2:36

be a little bit more of a loose

2:36

format. So immediately after

2:41

this episode, you'll be able to

2:41

join us as we you know, grab a

2:45

drink, theorize wildly, you

2:45

know, discuss all the shit that

2:49

we didn't want to get into in

2:49

our stories that week. So this

2:53

week, we're going to be sharing

2:53

happy hour with horrible

2:55

history. I just want to call it

2:55

like four h honestly, or

2:59

quadruple h four h the before

2:59

each cruise probably not gonna

3:03

like that. But something else.

3:03

So we're going to share it this

3:07

week on the main channel, you

3:07

know, for free for everyone so

3:10

you can get a taste and then

3:10

it'll move over to Patreon after

3:14

that.

3:15

Yeah, consider it an

3:15

appetizer. That's what they do

3:18

with happy hour. Hello,

3:18

appetizer. appetizer. appetizer.

3:24

All right. Let's get to the

3:24

horrible. Yeah, let's do it.

3:28

Okay. Are you ready? I think so.

3:28

I mean, I'm not I'm literally

3:33

connected to my laptop. I can't

3:33

go anywhere.

3:39

So I have like a heavy

3:39

hitter this week. And it's very

3:42

dark and deep and so like, I

3:42

felt like I need to I need to

3:46

like, like shake it off a little

3:46

bit. But okay, let's dive right

3:50

in. Yeah, Rachel, Emily, before

3:50

the Yorkshire Ripper before Ted

3:57

Bundy. Before john Wayne Gacy,

3:57

before dahmer, Manson or even

4:02

the Zodiac Killer. There was a

4:02

serial killer that terrorized

4:06

women in the northeast. This man

4:06

was one of the first serial

4:11

killers to be sensationalized by

4:11

the media and turned into a

4:15

celebrity. In fact, reporter

4:15

Eddie Corsetti which is a

4:20

fantastic freakin name, reported

4:20

and said, Every time you pick up

4:24

a newspaper, there's a story we

4:24

just kept at it. There were

4:27

hawkers on street corners

4:27

yelling, extra killer strikes

4:31

again. I don't know if that was

4:31

the Boston accent, but we're

4:34

gonna go with it. Lucy's accent

4:34

and I'm here for it. People were

4:41

scared. deadbolts and watchdogs

4:41

were sold out around town

4:46

because of the killer that was

4:46

dubbed the Phantom fiend and

4:50

then the Phantom strangler, then

4:50

the Mad strangler. And finally,

4:56

as we know him today, the Boston

4:56

Strangler Ah, okay. Today, I'm

5:03

going to tell you about the

5:03

terror that was rained down upon

5:06

the city of Boston,

5:06

Massachusetts, from 1962 through

5:10

1964. Get excited, but not

5:14

I'm just processing

5:14

because that doesn't feel like

5:16

that long before everything

5:16

else. But he's like, intro to

5:20

serial killers. He's before

5:20

everybody else.

5:23

Yeah, it was like 70s and

5:23

maybe early 80s were like the

5:28

height of the serial killer

5:28

world and oh, yeah, you really

5:32

kicked it off. So it's soon as I

5:32

said, Did you say Let's get it

5:36

on?

5:37

Listen. I was going to

5:37

say "let's take off" I don't

5:41

know what I was trying to say. I

5:41

was gonna be like, let's start

5:44

it off with the strangler and I

5:44

was thinking so much about my

5:48

accent that I just like, and are

5:48

apparently like, Barry fucking

5:52

white. Now. What am I doing?

5:58

anywho Okay, this story

5:58

is super intense. And so before

6:02

we really dive into the the

6:02

super heavy stuff, I wanted to

6:05

just ask like the light

6:05

question, of course, have Have

6:08

you ever been to Boston?

6:09

I have. I actually went

6:09

recently. I went to Boston last

6:15

May in 2019. Not this past May.

6:15

Because actually, my granny

6:21

passed last year and wanted to

6:21

have her funeral in New

6:24

Hampshire, which is where she's

6:24

from. And so we decided after we

6:28

get the funeral, enough family

6:28

stuff that Robert and the kids

6:32

and I would say a night in

6:32

Boston, because we had to fly

6:35

through the airport. And we did

6:35

the aquarium, which was so much

6:38

fun. Little kids night, so much

6:38

Baby Shark so much. Oh, my God,

6:43

I bet. Have you been to Boston?

6:45

I've only been to Boston

6:45

one time. And it was for a

6:48

conference for work. And so

6:48

although it was like a five day

6:52

conference, and they had

6:52

downtime and stuff where you

6:54

could like go out. I think I saw

6:54

mostly like the insides of

6:58

restaurants and conference

6:58

halls. And you know, it rained a

7:02

lot. And I remember walking,

7:02

they're really cute, like little

7:04

cobblestone streets somewhere.

7:04

Wow, this is just such a

7:08

different vibe than you know,

7:08

West Coast or even the Midwest.

7:11

It's it's very old. It feels

7:11

older. Yeah, because it is, you

7:16

know, but um, yeah, it was. It's

7:16

super cute. Yeah. Yeah. Okay,

7:24

I've delayed us long enough.

7:24

Okay, let's take the dive in.

7:28

Okay, there are a lot of layers

7:28

and theories and terrible

7:31

stories to this whole Boston

7:31

Strangler situation. But before

7:36

we really get into the theories,

7:36

and even before we talk about

7:39

the strangler himself, I'm going

7:39

to start by walking us through

7:44

the murders chronologically,

7:44

like, how they went down,

7:49

because 13 women died at his

7:49

hand, and I kind of want to try

7:53

to focus on them first, if

7:53

possible. There's actually not a

7:58

ton of information out there

7:58

about each woman specifically,

8:02

you know, details about who they

8:02

were. But I have as much as I

8:06

found in here. Sometimes it's

8:06

just a name and a occupation and

8:10

an age. But, you know, it is

8:10

what it is reporting in the 60s.

8:14

Yeah.

8:15

And just to throw it out

8:15

there like even if it feels

8:18

repetitive or redundant to words

8:18

that actually ironically mean

8:22

the same thing. We get it. And

8:22

also, it's so important to us,

8:27

because we're talking about

8:27

horrible things and history and

8:30

true crime to do the victims as

8:30

much justice as we can. And

8:34

yeah, we'd like to laugh at shit

8:34

as you guys probably can tell.

8:39

And we don't ever want to make

8:39

light of the fact that people

8:42

died or in any way hurt feelings

8:42

of people who have been victims

8:47

we we want to be advocates to

8:47

the best of our ability.

8:51

Absolutely, very well

8:51

stated. I also will add the

8:55

caveat that this is really

8:55

horrific, like this is

8:58

especially the chronological

8:58

detailings of what happened is

9:03

definitely the deepest and most

9:03

like skin crawly creepy story

9:08

that I've done, you know, in our

9:08

best Yeah, for now, but

9:13

it's the most intensive before.

9:15

I know but but so, um,

9:15

you know, that's, of course why

9:20

we're all here. But even in

9:20

brevity, what happened to these

9:23

women is very sad and and also

9:23

possibly triggering. And so I

9:28

just wanted to state that if you

9:28

are at all triggered triggered

9:31

by sexual assault, basically,

9:31

you've been warned. So proceed

9:36

with caution there. Okay, so

9:36

here's where the story begins.

9:41

The day is June 14 1962. A 55

9:41

year old Latvian seamstress

9:49

named Anna slicers. is seen

9:49

entering her apartment alone at

9:54

30pm. A little over two

9:54

hours later, her son arrived To

10:00

her apartment there to take Anna

10:00

to church because they were

10:04

having a memorial service for

10:04

the victims of the Russian

10:07

invasion of Latvia. Okay, Anna

10:07

son, unfortunately finds her

10:14

body on the kitchen floor. She's

10:14

wearing a house coat, but it's

10:18

ripped open and there's a cord

10:18

knotted around her neck and a

10:22

bow. Like, like tie your shoes

10:22

bow. So like she's a present for

10:28

like a nice little extra Fuck

10:28

you. And there was a man's belt

10:33

nearby that was broken. Almost

10:33

as if the person who did this to

10:37

her had pulled it so hard that

10:37

it broke into. So we're talking

10:44

through it all, it was brutal.

10:44

England, Anna had also been

10:49

raped, possibly with an object,

10:49

which is horrifying. Police

10:56

believed that the killer had

10:56

entered the apartment by

10:58

climbing up the scaffolding

10:58

because no one had seen anyone

11:01

go in through her door other

11:01

than her. And although eight men

11:05

ended up getting questioned, no

11:05

arrests were made for her

11:08

murder. And then a little she

11:08

had the most information about

11:11

her. So and this is as much as

11:11

it was. She was a faithful

11:15

woman, a mother, a skilled

11:15

seamstress. And according to her

11:19

son, a woman who had no enemies,

11:19

heartbreak, but she was more

11:24

than the first victim of the

11:24

Boston Strangler, but she was

11:27

the first victim. 14 days later,

11:27

on June 28, an elderly woman

11:35

named Mary Mullen is found dead,

11:35

this time on her sofa in her

11:40

apartment. Now although it

11:40

wasn't known at the time, the

11:43

Boston Strangler later told

11:43

investigators that he had broken

11:47

into her apartment, and the 85

11:47

year old woman had died in his

11:52

arms before he could kill her.

11:52

And so her death certificate

11:57

actually noted that the cause of

11:57

death was a heart attack, which

11:59

caused the police after they

11:59

heard the Stranglers confession

12:04

to kind of come to believe that

12:04

she was literally frightened to

12:07

death. So now that one's kind of

12:07

a weird one, because technically

12:13

now he's had two victims. But as

12:13

of right now, the police only

12:17

know of one or think of one as

12:17

like the strangler because this

12:21

elderly woman looks as if she

12:21

just had a heart attack.

12:23

Anyways, I'm putting it out there because I'm doing this chronologically, and she was the

12:25

second. Okay, two days after

12:30

Mary Mullen was found a man

12:30

named Chester Steadman, who was

12:34

president of the Boston bar,

12:34

called his sister in law. And

12:38

her name was Nina Nichols. And

12:38

Nina was a 68 year old

12:43

physiotherapist. And he called

12:43

her and she didn't answer the

12:47

phone, which was odd to him. So

12:47

he asked the superintendent of

12:52

her apartment, if he could go in

12:52

and check on her and just make

12:55

sure that she was okay. And

12:55

after some time, the super enter

12:59

the apartment and found Nina on

12:59

her bedroom floor. Nina was

13:04

wearing her flannel pink robe,

13:04

and it was torn from the waist

13:08

down. And then two of her

13:08

stockings were tied tightly

13:13

around her neck, and she had

13:13

been sexually assaulted

13:18

horrifically with a wine bottle.

13:18

Again, I know police did not

13:24

find any evidence of forced

13:24

entry. On the same day, across

13:31

town, a 65 year old Night Nurse

13:31

named Helen Blake was found face

13:38

down on her bed. the bottoms of

13:38

her flannel pajamas were laying

13:42

on the floor next to the bed.

13:42

And she had a stocking and a bra

13:46

tied around her neck. And she

13:46

was also sexually assaulted.

13:51

One kind of sad like heart

13:51

wrenching thing I think,

13:55

especially for us as empaths

13:55

later her downstairs neighbor

14:00

found out the Helen had been

14:00

murdered. And she's like said

14:03

her heart just sank because two

14:03

days earlier, she had heard this

14:08

odd amount of movement upstairs

14:08

and thought it was like

14:10

furniture moving or something

14:10

and kind of shrugged it off and

14:14

thought well, maybe she's

14:14

cleaning and moving furniture.

14:17

And then retrospectively she now

14:17

realized that it was probably

14:22

the sounds of the strangler, you

14:22

know, in her upstairs neighbor

14:26

being murdered, the guilt, the

14:26

guilt factor. Exactly. Because,

14:33

yeah, not that anything could

14:33

have been done. You know, we all

14:37

have that where right What have

14:37

I done something but what you're

14:40

going to run out? Stop a madman

14:40

who knows.

14:44

Can I ask a question?

14:44

And maybe you'll get to it and

14:51

I'm just jumping ahead. Does the

14:51

Boston Strangler have a cooling

14:55

off period because it seems like

14:55

all of these murders are so

14:59

close together. He's like

14:59

starting out in bizerker mode.

15:03

Are we sure that that's the

15:03

first murder?

15:05

Right? Oh my gosh, that's

15:05

such a good point because he

15:09

does have cooling off periods.

15:09

And I will get to that. But not

15:13

that much. Like if you think

15:13

about it, he had, according to

15:17

this timeline 13 murders over

15:17

the course of like, a year and a

15:20

half ish. With Yeah, like you

15:20

said, like, usually it doesn't

15:25

escalate so quickly. But

15:25

there's, there's things that I

15:30

will tell you later, that will

15:30

lead up to that. So

15:34

yeah, and it just

15:34

doesn't sound and I mean,

15:37

obviously, we don't know. But it

15:37

just doesn't seem like a first

15:42

murder, because it's so brutal.

15:42

And most of the time, you know,

15:46

we haven't really talked about

15:46

it on this podcast. But you and

15:48

I, Emily know that serial

15:48

killers, they give themselves

15:52

little allowances. Right. I'm

15:52

thinking Ed Kemper who practiced

15:56

with all of those women in the

15:56

cars and practiced and practiced

15:59

and practiced and was like,

15:59

well, maybe I'll just drive one.

16:02

And maybe I'll just talk to this

16:02

one. And usually, not usually,

16:07

but in a lot of stories that we

16:07

know about serial killers. So

16:09

effect first death is an

16:09

accident or to crime of passion.

16:13

Somebody they know. It's not

16:13

usually this brutal murder like

16:19

that,

16:20

right? With such an

16:20

intense, you know, finale of

16:24

having a bow around the neck as

16:24

if yes, it is. It's brazen. Yes.

16:30

And so we'll come to talk about

16:30

some of his previous crimes. A

16:36

little later, once I get

16:36

through, you know, these

16:38

strangler murders, but

16:38

definitely are things that lead

16:42

up to this. Okay, so all right,

16:42

yeah. So just to recap, you

16:46

know, where we're at right now,

16:46

and this the history of this

16:49

story. We're now in June 30. So

16:49

if you'll remember that 16 days

16:54

since the first murders taken

16:54

place, and three women have been

16:58

brutally assaulted and murdered.

16:58

Now, I know I listed for people,

17:03

you know, but as we know, the

17:03

police didn't know that Mary

17:06

Milan was the strangler victim.

17:06

And technically, she hadn't been

17:09

strangled. So chronologically,

17:09

four people have died at his

17:13

hand. But you know, three are

17:13

only only three are known. So,

17:19

obviously, three murders in 16

17:19

days is shocking and terrifying.

17:23

And people in the city of Boston

17:23

are scared and really shaken.

17:28

And the newspapers, and this is

17:28

where that kind of media

17:31

sensitive sensationalization is

17:31

coming into play. And newspapers

17:37

are, you know, headline news.

17:37

Every day of the week, people

17:42

are talking newspapers on the

17:42

corner saying like the killers

17:44

out there, protect yourself that

17:44

kind of thing. Yeah. One

17:48

newspaper even called the

17:48

feeling and the city, you know,

17:51

at that time was that there was

17:51

a deranged killer, who brought

17:55

chilling terror to the home of

17:55

every Boston woman who lives

17:59

alone. And

18:01

yeah, and if there's not

18:01

already enough stigma on women,

18:05

living alone, especially in the

18:05

60s, like well, she's not

18:09

married by 35. She's a spinster.

18:09

She's an old maid. I think, in

18:15

this context, they're not

18:15

blaming women. But it is like,

18:19

Listen, you better get married,

18:19

you know?

18:23

Yeah, you need a big

18:23

strong man to protect you. And

18:26

if you think through the victim

18:26

profile, we're talking older

18:32

women who live alone and

18:32

apartments, you know, he's

18:35

obviously got this like, mother

18:35

fetish. Ooh, yeah.

18:39

It's very psycho to me.

18:39

Like all of these women are

18:43

made. I don't know how old this

18:43

motherfucker is. No pun

18:46

intended. But it seems seems

18:46

like maybe I'm imagining him as

18:52

like a weird dude in his 30s or

18:52

40s. I don't know why I'm

18:57

tourists.

18:58

Okay, so then, a month

18:58

and a half passes. You know, the

19:05

cities out there hunting for

19:05

this triple killer. They're

19:08

looking to him for to no avail.

19:08

But it kind of seems like maybe

19:13

the killings are a thing of the

19:13

past. Like maybe it was just the

19:16

triple kill. And then it was

19:16

done. I mean, obviously, they

19:18

still want to find this person,

19:18

but it's been a month and a half

19:21

now. And after three rapid

19:21

succession murders, they're

19:23

thinking okay, maybe he left

19:23

maybe died, whatever. Yeah, but

19:27

then 75 year old Ida Ergas

19:27

family started to feel

19:32

concerned, because no one was

19:32

answering the phone at her

19:36

apartment. And that just wasn't

19:36

like her. So on August 18, her

19:42

cousin went over to the building

19:42

and climbed all the stairs to

19:46

get up to her fifth floor flat

19:46

and open the door and found a

19:50

really grotesque scene. Ida is

19:50

lying on her back. her pajamas

19:57

are torn to expose her body and

19:57

her life. Legs are spread and

20:02

held apart by two chairs. And

20:02

then she's been strangled by a

20:08

pillowcase and sexually

20:08

assaulted. I mean, think about a

20:14

75 year old woman. I mean,

20:14

that's where any rape any murder

20:18

ending assault is horrific and

20:18

awful, but but that's a grandma.

20:22

Yeah, it's just like, come on,

20:22

man.

20:26

Yeah, well, I'm just

20:26

thinking. It's, it's like an

20:29

extra factor you just like you

20:29

said with the bow. Because the

20:33

chairs to me just remind me of

20:33

like a really make shift,

20:37

makeshift gynecology thing like

20:37

this guy. When you're talking

20:42

about the brazenness of this

20:42

person. It's like, he seems very

20:47

opportunistic. And he's like,

20:47

I'm not even going to show up

20:52

with anything. And I'm going to

20:52

kill you with what's already in

20:55

your apartment. And it's it's so

20:55

like, intimate in this really

21:01

grotesque, horrible way. It's

21:01

It's too intimate. It is it is.

21:06

It's like there's just something

21:06

about, like, I don't want

21:10

anybody to touch my stuff. You

21:10

know? Yeah. And then to use your

21:16

stuff to sexually assault you

21:16

to, to murder you. I mean, it's,

21:21

it's gross. It makes me want to

21:21

throw up. It's so gross. It's

21:27

gross. It's really gross. That's

21:27

so that's it. Yeah, it's just an

21:30

extra invasion of your safety.

21:30

Absolutely.

21:37

So although the strangler

21:37

had been dormant for a month and

21:40

a half, he was obviously back.

21:40

And just two days after Ida's

21:45

murder he hit again on August

21:45

21. This time, a 67 year old

21:51

Night Nurse from Longwood

21:51

hospital. Her name was James

21:54

Sullivan, and she is found

21:54

facedown kneeling in her

21:59

bathtub. Her head and her

21:59

forearms are covered with water

22:04

and her house coat is pulled up

22:04

to her shoulders. her panties

22:08

are pulled to her ankles, and a

22:08

pair of her nylon stockings are

22:12

used to strangle her. It also

22:12

seems that she's been dead for a

22:17

week. So although they found her

22:17

two days after Ida's death, it

22:24

seems as though Jane had been

22:24

murdered, you know, four days

22:28

prior to regardless I mean,

22:28

still crazy close together.

22:32

Crazy close together. Yeah. So

22:32

at this point, you know, six

22:36

murders have taken place by that

22:36

the police know of, they're

22:39

really scrambling to find clues

22:39

and to figure out who this

22:43

person might be. a psychiatrist

22:43

developed kind of a criminal

22:47

profile ish he, he stated that

22:47

he believed the Stranglers

22:51

physically small and has a

22:51

crippling inferiority complex.

22:56

He's probably also a psychotic

22:56

sex pervert that has a malignant

23:00

form of schizophrenia. And he's

23:00

stints at the police don't find

23:04

Him He will kill again.

23:07

Okay. I think that this

23:07

gets to the schizophrenia part.

23:11

I'm curious about because I'm

23:11

wondering, that's the only part

23:14

that doesn't make sense for me,

23:14

like, obviously, this person is

23:17

a psychopath. But I think I'm in

23:17

from your friendly neighborhood

23:23

therapist. schizophrenia, it

23:23

used to be this disorder, that's

23:29

just the catch all like, be be

23:29

afraid if somebody has

23:33

schizophrenia, because they're

23:33

going to be a murderer, or

23:36

they're going to be a crazy

23:36

person just doing whatever. And

23:40

a lot of psychopaths do not have

23:40

that sort of severe and

23:45

persistent mental illness. And

23:45

they, I don't know, I personally

23:52

have not studied it enough to

23:52

know how much is nature how much

23:55

is nurture. My gut is to say

23:55

most of it is nature. Obviously,

23:59

nurture still plays a role. But

23:59

there are lots of people with

24:02

horrible childhoods, who then do

24:02

not strangle and murder people.

24:07

So I maybe would say, I've

24:07

obviously I'm not a criminal

24:10

profiler, but I'm like, Hmm,

24:10

maybe not.

24:14

Maybe not interesting to

24:14

have this person make this, you

24:18

know, grand assessment, which

24:18

maybe the rest of it is

24:24

plausible. But schizophrenia, as

24:24

we know now is like, you know,

24:28

it's a medical condition. How

24:28

can you know that without

24:33

evaluating this person, whoever

24:33

he is, and like you just said,

24:38

schizophrenic? It's not like,

24:38

Oh, you have schizophrenia.

24:41

You're definitely a murderer.

24:41

You know, you're definitely some

24:43

sex pervert. No, like we have to

24:43

attack that. Yeah, but anyways,

24:49

yeah, it just it feels

24:49

like overkill. Again, no pun

24:52

intended. Like it just feels

24:52

like it doesn't need to be

24:55

there. The inferiority complex,

24:55

for sure, the psychopathic trait

25:00

100% right

25:04

so you know almost as at

25:04

the strangler heard this

25:07

assessment of himself and kind

25:07

of wanted to prove him wrong,

25:11

you know this concept of if we

25:11

don't catch him he'll kill

25:13

again. The killings kind of seem

25:13

to stop. Now. September passes,

25:19

October passes, November passes

25:19

and there's no incidence. And

25:23

then on December 5, the

25:23

Stranglers youngest victim to

25:27

date 20 year old Sophie Clark is

25:27

found. She is on her back with

25:34

her legs spread. She's wearing a

25:34

garter belt with black stockings

25:38

and a floral house coat. At this

25:38

scene, unlike others their semen

25:43

on the carpet. Young Sophie was

25:43

a hospital technician who

25:48

attended classes at the Carnegie

25:48

Institute of medical technology

25:52

at Beacon Hill at night. And

25:52

then, over Christmas, 23 year

25:57

old Patricia de cette, returned

25:57

to her alma mater, Middlebury

26:01

College, where she was the

26:01

editor of the yearbook. And she

26:05

told her classmate that she

26:05

wasn't afraid of the Boston

26:08

strong now, which is just so sad

26:08

to me. It's like a horror movie

26:13

when you're like, don't say it.

26:13

Don't say it. Why are you

26:16

running up the stairs? Exactly.

26:16

go the other way away from the

26:19

house. It's Yeah. And so then on

26:19

New Year's Eve, she doesn't show

26:24

up for work at Kenmore square,

26:24

which is an engineering company

26:28

where she's the receptionist. So

26:28

her boss calls the janitor at

26:33

her apartment, and the janitor

26:33

finds her in bed in a bra and

26:37

our blue red house coat. There's

26:37

a sheet and a blanket pulled up

26:42

to her neck and smoothed out.

26:42

But then when they take the

26:45

blanket back, they find that

26:45

she's been strangled with four

26:49

articles of clothing. First, a

26:49

knotted blouse that was tied

26:53

tight against her neck, then a

26:53

nylon stocking, and then two

26:58

stockings tied together on top

26:58

of that. So one last note about

27:04

Patricia is that, of course no

27:04

one knew if she even knew this,

27:07

but she was one month pregnant

27:07

when she was mad. Okay, so now

27:14

1962 is over, you know, that was

27:14

New Year's Eve. And as a

27:19

reminder, now there are eight

27:19

victims so far. And then again,

27:24

the strangler after eight

27:24

victims goes dormant for a

27:27

little while, in fact, until

27:27

March. So a few months, well,

27:32

actually, it's only two months,

27:32

people are able to breathe

27:34

easier, you know, maybe hoping

27:34

that they left all of that chaos

27:39

of the strangler stuff behind

27:39

them in 1962, you know, the

27:43

hopes of the new year, right?

27:44

It's like, how hopeful

27:44

we were at the end of 2019. And

27:48

everybody's like, 2020 it's

27:48

gonna be my year.

27:52

I pulled out my goals

27:52

list because I always make a

27:56

list of goals for the upcoming

27:56

year. And they're fucking

27:59

laughable. It's like go on a big

27:59

trip post I did. So

28:05

counterintuitive when you have to quarantine,

28:08

our goals for 2021 are

28:08

going to be like, wear pants

28:12

five out of seven days a week.

28:12

Wave to your neighbors every

28:17

day. feeling like you're gonna

28:17

have a panic attack at the

28:22

grocery store. Terrible.

28:30

So, you know, until

28:30

March, people are able to

28:33

breathe a little easier. And

28:33

then on March 6, Mary Brown was

28:38

found on the floor of her

28:38

apartment. Mary is 69 years old,

28:43

and her head was covered with a

28:43

sheet. And she had been raped,

28:48

strangled, be in about the head

28:48

and stabbed in her breast with a

28:56

kitchen for leave the boobies

28:56

alone, leave him alone. Oh, how

29:00

messed up to stab her and then

29:00

leave it sticking out of her.

29:03

Like I mean,

29:04

it's like the bow all

29:04

over again. I also maybe I've

29:09

been watching too much Sesame

29:09

Street, but I'm just thinking of

29:11

the patterns. It's like older

29:11

women cooling quote unquote,

29:17

period and then it's like, maybe

29:17

they won't connect these murders

29:20

because my mo is now young

29:20

people and then he does two of

29:23

them. And he's like, this isn't

29:23

for me. Let's go back. It's it's

29:27

this weird fact that pattern.

29:30

That's definitely

29:30

something that we'll chat about

29:32

a little later. Is this like

29:32

weird? Why does the mo change?

29:36

So that will definitely come

29:36

into play when we get to the

29:39

theories. But anyways, so there

29:39

are four more of it. Alright,

29:45

let's get I want to make

29:45

sure that we're doing the

29:49

victim's right so let's get

29:49

through the next four and then

29:53

hopefully they catch this

29:53

Walker. I don't know. I don't

29:56

know anything like literally can

29:56

we put him up on a cross But not

30:00

like not Jesus style. I'm like

30:00

not like Jesus.

30:07

Anyways, isn't it so

30:07

interesting and curious. Neither

30:13

of us knew the story of the

30:13

Boston Strangler. It's one of

30:17

those that I have heard. I mean,

30:17

like, I know the name of the

30:22

Boston Strangler is up there

30:22

with the list of crazy serial

30:25

killers, but I'd never read the

30:25

story before now say it's fucked

30:28

up.

30:29

And it's never covered

30:29

now that you are telling me

30:31

about it. understanding why

30:31

nobody wants to picture their

30:35

mother or their grandmother

30:35

raped and mutilated and left. I

30:40

mean, nobody wants that. Yeah.

30:40

Yep, exactly. Here we are doing

30:45

it on our own podcast. No. Okay

30:45

for victims.

30:50

On the sixth, the

30:50

Stranglers number of victim

30:53

reach double digit. Yes. We're

30:53

jumping emos. Again. 23 year old

30:57

Beverly salmons was a musical

30:57

therapist, and a graduate

31:01

student in music at Boston

31:01

University. She is found

31:06

stretched out on her bed unclad,

31:06

stabbed and strangled. Her hands

31:13

are tied behind her back, which

31:13

is a little different. Although

31:17

two silk scarves and a nylon

31:17

stocking were not at around her

31:21

neck, but they weren't the cause

31:21

of death. There were actually no

31:25

bones in her neck that were

31:25

fractured. It was the 16 stab

31:30

with four in the neck and 12 in

31:30

the chest, including five in the

31:35

left lung that were the cause of

31:35

her death. Wow.

31:39

It is interesting that

31:39

he's switching emmos like he was

31:45

doing some stabbing before and

31:45

obviously raping with objects

31:49

and mutilation, but he was

31:49

strangling us the cause of

31:53

death. And now he's stabbing

31:53

with just I mean, he's

31:57

the Boston's crying all

31:57

right, like that's supposed to

32:00

be his hope, right?

32:01

I mean, it's in his

32:01

fucking name. But I always think

32:04

of stabbing as this very

32:04

psychopath psychopathic sexual

32:09

thing. Like the repetition

32:09

there's usually a sexual

32:12

undertone, and obviously he's

32:12

raping these victims and

32:14

mutilating them. So I don't know

32:14

if that's part of it. I can't

32:19

wait for you to get into the

32:19

psychology behind this guy.

32:22

Because I I want to understand

32:22

and yet I also just want to

32:26

punch him square in the face.

32:27

Yeah. Well, and this

32:27

one's interesting. If you think

32:30

about it. It does not say

32:30

anywhere that she was raped. She

32:37

was strangled and stabbed. You

32:37

know, she was, I guess she was

32:41

naked and, you know, stretched

32:41

out on our body, but they never

32:44

mentioned sexual assault. And so

32:44

does that sexualization, like

32:48

the stabbing being a sexual act?

32:48

For some, maybe it's like, this

32:53

concept of he has trouble with

32:53

that because he's raping with

32:56

objects for a long time. It

32:56

seems the only time that there

32:59

was semen present was the 120

32:59

year old victim. And now,

33:04

there's not even a sexual

33:04

assault component. There's a

33:08

statute Yeah, which is a sexual

33:08

component in many ways. So, you

33:12

know, maybe he's struggling in

33:12

that department. Okay. The 11th

33:19

victim was found on September 8.

33:19

This victim was Evelyn Corbin.

33:25

That morning Evelyn had

33:25

breakfast with her neighbor. And

33:28

then they parted ways, planning

33:28

to reunite for lunch just a few

33:32

hours later. And at one the

33:32

neighbor arrived at her

33:35

apartment and knocked. After

33:35

several attempts, and no answer.

33:39

She used the key that she had to

33:39

open the door. inside. She finds

33:45

of course a horrible sight. Her

33:45

friend was draped over the bed,

33:49

her right leg dangling toward

33:49

the floor, around her neck or to

33:53

stop. A thirds wrapped around

33:53

her left ankle and a fourth is

33:57

found on the bed and she had

33:57

been raped. Two months later,

34:02

the country's in mourning after

34:02

JFK assassination. But north of

34:07

Boston Joanne Graf's landlord is

34:07

trying to collect rent and no

34:13

one is answering the door. So

34:13

when the 30 when the 23 year old

34:19

fails to show up for dinner on

34:19

Saturday night and church on

34:23

Sunday, her friends call the

34:23

police right around the same

34:27

time that Lee Harvey Oswald is

34:27

shot in Dallas, police find

34:33

Joanne's body a little like

34:33

throw to what's going on in the

34:38

world while all this is

34:38

happening perhaps why there's

34:42

less notoriety around the Boston

34:42

Strangler you know other

34:46

massively huge things were going

34:46

on at the same time. You know,

34:50

who knows?

34:50

Yeah, that would be a

34:50

good tiny episode or four Ah, at

34:57

some point because it'd be cool

34:57

to talk about stories that

35:01

should have been huge stories

35:01

that were overshadowed by bigger

35:04

stories.

35:05

Yeah, like what kind of

35:05

things happened on 911? Yes,

35:08

that we never exactly because

35:08

911 right, you know? Exactly,

35:12

exactly. So please find Joanne's

35:12

body. her blouse is pushed up to

35:16

her armpits, to nylon stockings,

35:16

and a leotard are knotted around

35:21

her neck. Joanne was a Sunday

35:21

school teacher and an artist.

35:27

Last, but certainly not least,

35:27

on January 4 1964, a teenager,

35:35

the youngest victim, 19 year old

35:35

Mary Sullivan, whose classmates

35:40

called her happy go lucky, fell

35:40

victim to the string 19. I know

35:45

Mary's roommates arrived home

35:45

and saw that Mary was in bed.

35:50

And they didn't want to wake her

35:50

up. So they went about making

35:52

dinner. And once it was ready,

35:52

they went to wake her up, but

35:55

found that she was dead,

35:55

strangled with a docking and two

35:59

scarves. That's heavy. It's very

35:59

heavy. So those are the 13

36:08

victims attributed to the Boston

36:08

Strangler. And so where we're at

36:13

now is like at this point, the

36:13

Boston Strangler is a common

36:16

name, a household name, of

36:16

course, in Boston. He's believed

36:20

at this point to have murdered

36:20

12 women from June 1962 to

36:25

January 1964. Obviously,

36:25

remembering that that 13th still

36:29

hasn't been connected to him

36:29

yet. And the city of Boston is,

36:35

you know, panicking. There's a

36:35

$10,000 reward available for

36:41

information leading to the

36:41

arrest. You know, but police

36:45

were still puzzled by this

36:45

killer. And there was a lot of

36:48

disagreement about how many of

36:48

the murders were actually the

36:52

work of a single pillar. Because

36:52

as we've been talking about

36:56

throughout, you know, the emos

36:56

are so different. You know,

37:00

anyone who's a super crime, True

37:00

Crime fan knows, like, Don't

37:04

serial killers usually have, you

37:04

know, a more specific age range,

37:08

don't they usually kill within

37:08

their own rights, like, that's

37:11

interesting to the first six

37:11

victims were white women, middle

37:17

aged, elderly. And then the next

37:17

two were young black women. And

37:22

then the killings switch back to

37:22

young white women with one on

37:26

one, elderly women in the

37:26

medicine. Interesting. So you

37:30

know, his emmos were slightly

37:30

different. Also, one of the

37:34

later victims was stabbed, the

37:34

others had knife wounds. One

37:39

article kind of stated, quote,

37:39

without going into horrifying

37:43

details, what was done or not

37:43

done sexually to the victims

37:47

varied wildly from case to case.

37:47

So things are starting to kind

37:53

of shift and crack in the case,

37:53

you know, at least

37:58

retrospectively, it seems a

37:58

little off. But in the 60s, you

38:03

know, the police are hunting for

38:03

a sadistic madman who's terror,

38:08

the city and we've heard it a

38:08

million times when cops are

38:11

under this kind of pressure, you

38:11

know, the mayor is probably

38:13

involved. The governor, like

38:13

everyone's probably breathing

38:16

down their necks, like you have

38:16

to catch this person. And so a

38:19

lot of times in that situation,

38:19

they are quick to jump to

38:24

finding Sandra, just to like

38:24

calm people. And so, in October,

38:33

there was actually a break in

38:33

the case that led them to an

38:38

arrest. But before I get to

38:38

that, you talked about this

38:44

seems crazy sudden, brazen to

38:44

start wasn't necessarily if the

38:52

same man committed all of those

38:52

crimes, because there are a few

38:57

things that I want to tell you

38:57

about that happened pre

38:59

strangler. And so we're going to

38:59

need to travel a little bit

39:03

back, okay to 1960. So, this is

39:03

two years before the killing

39:13

started. So, in the late 1950s

39:13

and early 1960, there was

39:20

another madman terrorizing

39:20

Massachusetts, a young man, in

39:26

his late 20s, a smooth talker

39:26

was going door to door looking

39:32

for young women. And when young

39:32

women answered the door, when he

39:35

not he would introduce himself

39:35

as a talent scout from a

39:39

modeling agency looking for new

39:39

models. That'll classic. And

39:44

then if the woman was

39:44

interested, he would tell her

39:46

that he needed to get her

39:46

measurements. And then when the

39:50

women, you know, expressed

39:50

interest and allowed him to

39:53

measure them, he'd farmed with

39:53

them. Of course, it was the 60s

39:56

and so I'm guessing the women

39:56

were super polite and you know,

40:00

fuckin shrugged him away or

40:00

excuse themselves or whatever,

40:03

when they should have slept shit

40:03

out of them. But you know,

40:06

that's besides the point. So

40:06

far, whatever.

40:10

No, but I mean, they're doing the thing where they're like, Oh, he's just getting so

40:12

fresh, like they have names for

40:15

it instead of, oh, he's using

40:15

his male privilege to molest me.

40:19

Like, but so gross.

40:22

Yeah, exactly. And it's

40:22

just like, so upsetting that

40:27

this is still a thing now and

40:27

this concept of like, Am I being

40:31

a bitch? To say no like to think

40:31

negatively about that

40:36

experience? Am I being overly

40:36

cautious? Or do I need to

40:39

really, like, fucking protect

40:39

myself from the people out

40:43

there? Have you ever had any,

40:43

like, creepy experiences like

40:47

that?

40:48

Um, like, nobody coming

40:48

to my house. But definitely, in

40:53

my 20s if I would be out at a

40:53

bar club or whatever, you get a

40:57

lot of like, dudes grazing you

40:57

from behind putting their hand

41:01

on your ass or the small of your

41:01

back without even introducing

41:06

themselves, or I've had shit

41:06

like that. And I've been

41:09

catcalled before, which is just

41:09

the most awkward.

41:13

Yeah, oh, my gosh, I was

41:13

walking down the street near my

41:17

job a few years ago, and I had

41:17

on like, a pencil skirt. And I

41:21

loved Good. Let's just say, and

41:21

this guy in a truck, like pulled

41:25

up and was like, catcalling me

41:25

and trying to get my attention.

41:28

And I like kind of like, waved

41:28

was like, you know, like,

41:31

thanks, and got in my car. And

41:31

then he proceeded to follow me

41:35

for like, several blocks and

41:35

pulled up right next to my car

41:38

and was like, roll this window

41:38

down. I was like, You're

41:41

beautiful. And things like,

41:41

you're creepy. Like, you're 50

41:46

like you're much older Damn,

41:46

dude. I will say I also had one

41:51

experience that I like, look

41:51

back on it. I'm like, You're

41:56

fucking stupid Emily. Like, one

41:56

time. Luckily, I had a roommate

42:00

at the time. And so we had just

42:00

gotten back from a trip. And her

42:06

luggage has gotten lost or

42:06

something. And so the airports

42:10

found it and was sending it back

42:10

to us. And they send it like,

42:13

and they find your luggage. They

42:13

sent it via this, like FedEx

42:15

carrier service. So it would get

42:15

there that night. And so there

42:20

was a knock on the door at like,

42:20

930. And this man was at the

42:23

door with her suitcase. So it

42:23

was like, Yes, we expected him

42:26

and like knew he was coming. But

42:26

yeah, it's still a strange man.

42:29

I answered the door. And he was

42:29

like, I'm really sorry, but I

42:32

really didn't use the bathroom.

42:32

Can I please use your bathroom?

42:35

And I naively it was just like,

42:35

Oh, yeah, sure. And just like,

42:38

let him in. And Audrey was kind

42:38

of like, my roommate. She was

42:43

like, What are you doing? Like,

42:43

let that guy in here. And he was

42:46

like, in the bathroom. And we

42:46

were like, do like, What if he

42:49

tries this, or whatever. And

42:49

then he came out of the bathroom

42:55

and left, it was fine. But I

42:55

will say we were sitting there

43:00

after he left. And I was like,

43:00

did you hear the toilet flush?

43:05

Ever? And we both were like, I

43:05

don't think like, I don't think

43:10

I heard the toilet flush. And

43:10

then I was went in to see if he

43:13

was just like a gross dude who

43:13

left pee in the toilet? No. So

43:17

he came into the house, went

43:17

into the bathroom, didn't

43:21

actually use the bathroom and

43:21

left. And so then I mean, I was

43:24

paranoid for a long time. I

43:24

mean, it's highly likely that he

43:27

just looked in the medicine

43:27

cabinet. And that's the desert

43:31

medicine cabinet that has

43:31

nothing in it. So like just

43:34

left, but or maybe we didn't hit

43:34

the toilet. Yes. You know, give

43:37

the guy the benefit of the

43:37

doubt. It's one of those things

43:40

where it's like, that kind of

43:40

thing for men is not something

43:43

they would ever have to think

43:43

about. And I think for men, too,

43:46

don't even have to think about

43:46

how, why that would be

43:50

uncomfortable for them to ask

43:50

that. You know? Yeah. Like I

43:53

think men get to the point where

43:53

they're like, I just need to use

43:57

your bathroom. Like, why would

43:57

you assume that I'm gonna do

43:59

something bad? And it's like,

43:59

because we have to

44:02

Yeah, yeah. And it's

44:02

like, I mean, back to what we

44:06

were talking about the beginning

44:06

where it's like, old spinsters

44:10

living alone or whatever. And

44:10

it's like, instead of saying,

44:14

hey, ladies, like make sure

44:14

you're traveling in groups, make

44:17

sure you're married. Make sure

44:17

you have this. Obviously, we're

44:21

not knocking safety precautions,

44:21

because we don't live in a

44:24

perfect world. But it's not like

44:24

Hey, dudes. Don't prey on

44:28

innocent ladies. Don't breathe

44:28

into an apartment where you

44:32

don't live and assault and kill

44:32

people. Don't don't do these

44:37

things. It's like women. You

44:37

better be on alert. And it is.

44:42

Was the onus poured on us? Yeah,

44:42

it comes with the fucking

44:45

ovaries and not in a good way.

44:45

Yeah.

44:49

So I am so frustrated by

44:49

that. And I love the new kind of

44:52

like, language that a lot of

44:52

people are using. I'm saying

44:55

like, let's teach our young men

44:55

not to rape. teaching our young

44:59

women How to protect themselves.

44:59

Yeah. Which Yes, please. Yes.

45:03

Yeah. I mean, this is

45:03

like a soapbox issue for us. But

45:06

it's the way that you talk about

45:06

consent, even when they're

45:08

toddlers, like my kids, if they

45:08

don't want me to hug them, I

45:12

don't hug them. You know, like,

45:12

and we teach them, Hey, your

45:16

brother said, No, your sister

45:16

said, No, you need to stop. And

45:20

it's the same thing. Like they

45:20

said, No, don't take that toy

45:22

for me. You need to stop. And it

45:22

it is the same. Yeah, but I'm

45:28

going to teach them both, right?

45:28

Like, we respect other people.

45:32

And I am still going to have to

45:32

teach my daughter I'm sure.

45:36

Like, hey, this is when we, you

45:36

know, we travel in pairs. Never

45:40

leave a drunk friend alone at a

45:40

bar, walk with your keys out.

45:44

And I mean, I hope I hope that

45:44

changes and I don't have to, but

45:50

I think it's, I think it's both

45:50

and, yeah, yeah, that doesn't

45:54

mean I'm not going to teach

45:54

Lincoln to be a good person. It

45:56

just means both and both.

45:59

Okay, so luckily, several

45:59

women who were fondled, did

46:02

contact the police after, you

46:02

know, the man had left. And so

46:06

the police started referring to

46:06

this person as the measuring

46:08

man, which sounds like such a

46:08

like loser superhero, you know,

46:12

like, exciting superhero of all,

46:16

measuring man, what is

46:16

his superpower?

46:19

He measures

46:23

Able to hypothesize in

46:23

inches in a single bound, like

46:27

what is

46:28

essentially the person we

46:28

need in our lives because he can

46:31

measure things and understand measurement.

46:34

He's like, the person

46:34

who, when you're online shopping

46:37

will say, No, no, that's not

46:37

going to fit there. We actually

46:41

do the measuring and measuring

46:41

man, if you're out there, Emily

46:44

single.

46:49

I'm going to remodel my

46:49

home office when I get back to

46:52

St. Louis. And one of the things

46:52

I want is like my parents have a

46:56

fireplace and I've really loved

46:56

being near the fireplace and I

47:00

love having one. I don't have

47:00

one in my house. It's not set up

47:03

for that. But I found out that

47:03

you can do like you can get

47:06

electric fireplaces, which are

47:06

basically a heater, you know,

47:10

that looks like a fireplace.

47:10

Yeah. Pretty. And so I was like,

47:13

ooh, I should get one of those

47:13

to put on my wall in my office.

47:17

So it's like, my nice often Oh,

47:17

so cozy. so cozy. Yeah. But so I

47:24

put it on my Amazon wishlist for

47:24

Christmas. Because the one is

47:27

like 250 bucks or whatever. I'm

47:27

like, well, I'll see what

47:29

happened. And my dad was looking

47:29

at my wish list. And we were

47:32

sitting in the other room. And

47:32

he was like, Emily, your wish

47:34

list is so weird. You have a

47:34

fireplace? And I'm like, Yeah, I

47:40

want it like get it for me. And

47:40

so now every single time we get

47:43

like a delivery, an Amazon

47:43

delivery on the front porch, if

47:46

it's like, we've gotten a few

47:46

that are big. Yeah. And I was

47:49

like, Oh my god, like,

47:52

but in actuality, you're

47:52

like, 250 is so cheap. And it's

47:56

because it's like a six inch Right.

47:59

Exactly. And so today my

47:59

dad got this little package. And

48:03

so it's become this common theme

48:03

that I say like Oh, is that my

48:06

fireplace? And he got this like

48:06

little package and he left in it

48:09

and he was like, open like

48:09

closed it like as if like you

48:12

can't see it. And he was like,

48:12

do you think it was your

48:15

fireplace and I was like

48:15

saddling it probably I would

48:19

order like a Barbie slice. But,

48:19

ya know, it happens. Okay. So,

48:29

back to the story. So this

48:29

measuring man has been reported.

48:33

It's going around, they're

48:33

looking for him. And in March of

48:35

1960, police caught a man and he

48:35

was breaking into a house and so

48:39

he, you know, confessed to the

48:39

burglary and then without any

48:42

prompting, he also confessed to

48:42

being the measuring man. He just

48:46

like whips out a ruler. What?

48:46

He's like, You caught me. Uh

48:50

huh. You look like you could be

48:50

a muddle, sir. So he invested to

48:57

me in the measuring man. And

48:57

this man's name is Albert

49:01

disalvo. Okay. And so he sent a

49:01

trial and the judge sentenced

49:05

him to 18 months in jail. And he

49:05

of course, was released released

49:11

after 11 months for good behavior.

49:13

Sure, because, you know,

49:13

sexual, sexually motivated

49:18

crimes, they don't ever

49:18

escalate. They never ever do.

49:22

People are well behaved in

49:22

prison and then they just go and

49:27

they settle down and they never

49:27

molest anyone ever. V and D and

49:36

false BS. He actually

49:36

then began a new crime spree

49:42

throughout Massachusetts,

49:42

Connecticut, Rhode Island and

49:46

New Hampshire. Allegedly,

49:46

allegedly he spent 1961 through

49:52

1964 basically causing mayhem

49:52

around the whole north east. But

49:59

now instead of fondling Women

49:59

like he did as the measuring

50:01

man. He was dressing up and it

50:01

sounds like an all green kind of

50:07

like a uniform of some sort like

50:07

a Riddler or more. They said

50:13

like a construction uniforms.

50:13

I'm thinking like overalls and

50:16

coveralls with Grayson, okay.

50:16

And he was breaking into homes

50:20

and sexually assaulting the

50:20

women inside. So if we think

50:24

back you know if he was sexually

50:24

assaulting first fondling, then

50:27

sexually assaulting eventually

50:27

escalates to murder so like

50:30

there is a little path there

50:30

that seems realistic. And so up

50:38

to this person, the Green Man

50:38

which is just I don't know if

50:41

you watch It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, but there's something there.

50:47

I'm just picturing Danny

50:47

DeVito is now actually popped it

50:52

sprinkler was chair set in

50:52

Boston. Was it? I feel like it

51:01

was or New York? Yeah, anyway,

51:01

so we're gonna have to Google

51:06

that. Okay, go ahead.

51:07

So not an not a laughable

51:07

matter. The Green Man is said to

51:12

a burglar burglarized over 400

51:12

homes and sexually assaulted

51:16

over 300 women. Holy shit. Last

51:16

Yeah, no. Oh, oh, yeah. And so

51:24

you know, the police at this

51:24

point, don't know that the

51:27

measuring man, the Green Man and

51:27

the Boston Strangler are

51:30

apparently all the same person.

51:30

So they're all you know,

51:33

searching for different people.

51:33

And I also want to throw in this

51:38

note, like, if you remember the

51:38

dates of the strangling this

51:41

would mean that he was doing the

51:41

rapes, the burglaries, and oh,

51:45

yeah, the same time over the

51:45

course of a few years. So it's

51:49

like 300 assaults, 13 murders,

51:49

like, it's a lot. Especially

51:55

considering, like, get this he

51:55

was married and had children.

51:59

And yet I'm single, but you

51:59

know, that's another story. You

52:04

know, we know serial killers can

52:04

certainly be super motivated by

52:09

their meat to kill. But, you

52:09

know, either way, there's a

52:13

little bit of this question

52:13

about like, could he possibly

52:16

have done it all? That's kind of

52:16

the first question. Is this the

52:19

guy who's really doing it all?

52:19

So with that in mind, like why

52:24

is it that this Albert disalvo

52:24

is the man that is consistently

52:27

cited as the measuring man, as

52:27

the Green Man and as the Boston

52:32

Strangler? Well, in October of

52:32

1964, I remember I said there

52:37

was a break in the case. And

52:37

that was a young woman who was

52:41

one of the green man's victims

52:41

came forward to the police

52:46

saying, you know, a man posing

52:46

as to detective actually entered

52:49

my home and sexually assaulted

52:49

me. And he was wielding a knife,

52:55

and he tied her up and molested

52:55

her. There was an interesting

52:58

note there, though, that in this

52:58

occurrence, she complained at

53:02

some point that her bonds were

53:02

too tight, and he loosened them

53:05

like, there was like a

53:05

compassionate moment, I guess.

53:09

But anyway, from her description

53:09

of what the man looked like, the

53:13

police quote, you know, were

53:13

able to identify the man as

53:16

Albert disalvo. And so they

53:16

published this photo of him in

53:21

the newspapers, and several

53:21

women started coming forward and

53:24

saying, like, yes, that's the

53:24

man that that attacked me. And

53:27

so he was arrested on the rape

53:27

charge from the woman who had

53:30

come forward. Man, they felt

53:30

competent arresting him because

53:34

of all the other women who had

53:34

come forward and said, like,

53:36

Yeah, me too. So when he's

53:36

arrested, it's written that he

53:41

said, and I quote, If you knew

53:41

the whole story, you wouldn't

53:45

believe it. It'll all come out.

53:45

Somebody is cocky, right? Yeah.

53:53

And like this probably baffled

53:53

the police at this time. Because

53:55

as we know, there's nothing like

53:55

physical at this time linking

53:58

into the strangler cases. He

53:58

didn't really match the witness

54:02

descriptions of possible

54:02

suspects. And in fact, they had

54:06

a list of over 300 suspects for

54:06

the Boston Strangler, and he was

54:10

not even on it. And on top of

54:10

that, it is also said that this

54:16

disalvo had a real reputation

54:16

for being a bragger you know,

54:22

your standard narcissist who

54:22

really likes attention and

54:25

exaggerates the his criminal

54:25

deeds to get extra attention. So

54:29

when he said this whole, like,

54:29

if you knew the whole story,

54:33

please didn't even really press

54:33

him on it. They're kind of like,

54:36

yeah, okay, but and like, booked

54:36

him and sent him off.

54:39

Sure. Jan.

54:41

Right. Okay, Karen. Yeah.

54:41

They sent him to a place called

54:48

Bridgewater, which is a prison

54:48

for the criminally insane. And

54:53

it was there that disalvo met

54:53

and befriended the convicted

54:58

murder Jordan Nasser. This is

54:58

important because Nasser had an

55:07

attorney named f lee Bailey. And

55:07

in February of 1965, he called

55:15

him up and asked him, if the

55:15

Boston Strangler could, quote,

55:20

make some money from publishing

55:20

his story. And the lawyer kind

55:25

of been like, What do you mean?

55:25

And Nasser told him that he had

55:31

met this disalvo guy who had

55:31

claimed to Nasser, the heat was

55:36

the Boston Strangler. Because

55:36

apparently, he confessed all of

55:42

this to Nasser in prison, told

55:42

him that he committed the

55:46

strangling. And Nasser was

55:46

calling his attorney because he

55:50

wanted the reward money.

55:50

Remember, there was $10,000?

55:54

Right, right. Also, if Pat Lee

55:54

Bailey sounds familiar to you,

55:59

it does thinking a little bit of

55:59

notoriety in the 90s because he

56:03

helped defend Mr. OJ Simpson.

56:03

That's by fak. Okay. Also, the

56:12

man who's willing to defend oj

56:12

simpson is a little bit fucked

56:15

up if you don't know it, because

56:15

let me tell you about how he

56:20

approached this whole situation.

56:20

So okay, um, oh, I will also

56:25

say, too, that there are some

56:25

reports that think that Nasser

56:29

and disalvo were actually like,

56:29

kind of in cahoots, and thinking

56:34

that they could get the reward

56:34

money and split it. And that was

56:38

slightly because it seemed like

56:38

disalvo knew that he was facing

56:42

kind of a long prison sentence

56:42

already, he had this rape

56:44

charge. So it seems like he

56:44

thought that he could get the

56:48

$5,000 and at least send it to

56:48

his family. Try to help support

56:52

them, whatever. Anyways, yeah, f

56:52

lee Bailey gets disalvo into a

56:57

room and kind of sits him down

56:57

and asks him to do his

57:04

confession on tape, you know,

57:04

tell me everything. And he

57:08

basically offers to serve as his

57:08

lawyer so that there's client

57:12

privilege or whatever. And he

57:12

goes into to get this

57:16

confession. But he also took a

57:16

really odd step. And he went and

57:20

got information about the

57:20

strings from the Boston Homicide

57:24

Squad, so that he could test to

57:24

sell compare, which is kind of

57:28

shocking to me that they gave it

57:28

to him first of all, like, yeah,

57:33

there's a little I'm like this

57:33

little issues with this here.

57:36

But it also said that he's so

57:36

much believe that disalvo was

57:40

the strangler, likely because he

57:40

heard this confession, and it

57:45

matched enough with what he had

57:45

heard from the squad. Like he

57:48

was like, This guy really did do

57:48

it. So much so that he actually

57:54

actively pressed for disalvo to

57:54

be recognized as the Boston

57:59

Strangler. Wow.

58:02

I mean, yeah, I guess I

58:02

just I'm wondering if he as a

58:07

lawyer is really good at

58:07

convincing people maybe asking

58:10

leading questions, or how much

58:10

was he like? Oh, describe it for

58:16

me? versus like, was it that he

58:16

could say details that nobody

58:22

what the killer would know? Or

58:22

was it that he was leading him?

58:27

I don't know. Yeah.

58:28

Well, and so the reason

58:28

why f lee Bailey was like trying

58:33

to push for disalvo to be

58:33

recognized as the strangler

58:37

because, as you'll recall, like

58:37

at this point, there's no

58:40

physical evidence, he's not

58:40

matching descriptions, like the

58:42

police aren't really citing him

58:42

as the strangler, although he is

58:45

now saying he's the strangler

58:45

and giving these like

58:49

confessions, but they're kind of

58:49

like, I don't know, we're still

58:52

going to just charge with this

58:52

rape thing. But so Bailey's

58:56

reasoning was that he kind of

58:56

thought that the strings were

58:59

strings, were deranged enough

58:59

that it could get the salvo

59:03

declared insane, and have him

59:03

sent to a psychiatric hospital

59:07

as opposed to sent to prison

59:07

instead of Hmm. And so he was

59:12

basically saying, like, here's

59:12

my way out of you going to

59:16

prison for the rest of your

59:16

life. I'll get you sent to a

59:18

nice lush hospital or whatever.

59:18

It's a good lawyer. Yeah. Yeah.

59:22

Which also, there's a quote, he

59:22

described a salvo as, quote, a

59:28

completely homicidal vegetable

59:28

walking in the form of a human

59:31

being, which is the best insult

59:31

I've ever. I mean, that simple.

59:39

I'm just picturing a carrot with

59:39

a gun. I was picturing a

59:43

cucumber. It's like veggietales.

59:43

Details. Murder edition.

59:51

veggietales murder edition.

59:51

Exactly. So basically, the big

59:55

question becomes like, did he do

59:55

it? Right. You know, there's no

59:58

physical evidence, like I just

59:58

said, He's confessing his

1:00:02

confession did seem to contain

1:00:02

details that the police had

1:00:06

withheld from the public. But

1:00:06

Bailey had gotten that

1:00:11

information. So did he really

1:00:11

get to disalvo? Or did disalvo

1:00:16

know it and confirm it with, you

1:00:16

know, like, there's that like

1:00:19

hiccup in all of this, where

1:00:19

it's like, whoo, what the heck.

1:00:22

And I did also read that salvo

1:00:22

character is said to have had a

1:00:27

photographic memory. And so it's

1:00:27

also kind of like, Well, okay,

1:00:31

you know, saw anything on the

1:00:31

strangler or read stuff about

1:00:34

him in the paper, he could have

1:00:34

maybe recalled it with great

1:00:37

detail, even though he wasn't

1:00:37

there, which could potentially

1:00:39

throw off, you know, the

1:00:39

police's investigation, make

1:00:43

them feel like he definitely did

1:00:43

it. But so, you know,

1:00:45

ultimately, they didn't try him

1:00:45

for the strangler case, like

1:00:49

they never did, they decided to

1:00:49

just try and for the sexual

1:00:53

assault, Green Man case, but

1:00:53

even so, Bailey still use the

1:00:59

defense, the disalvo was the

1:00:59

Boston Strangler, and that this

1:01:04

very fact, should entitle him to

1:01:04

life in a mental institution,

1:01:09

not punishment prison, which

1:01:09

seems so stupid, you know, like,

1:01:16

I keep going back and forth. I'm like, Is he a really good lawyer? Or is he not but like,

1:01:18

it's, it was said that if he

1:01:22

would have just gone with the

1:01:22

Green Man charges, he probably

1:01:25

could have gotten a 10 year

1:01:25

sentence or a 25. year. And

1:01:28

yeah, and then he could have

1:01:28

potentially gotten out and 10 if

1:01:32

you had good behavior, because

1:01:32

yeah, rapes not that big of a

1:01:34

deal. Not in the 60s, No,

1:01:34

definitely not in the 60s. But

1:01:39

they went all in on that

1:01:39

insanity defense. And so he was

1:01:45

found guilty of the rapes.

1:01:45

Probably, the jury leaned in on

1:01:52

calling him guilty since his own

1:01:52

lawyer was like, he's also the

1:01:55

Boston Strangler, you guys,

1:01:55

right? Put that man away. They

1:01:59

send the chins till they

1:01:59

sentenced him to life in prison.

1:02:02

And ironically, he was denied

1:02:02

any psychiatric help. So that is

1:02:08

ironic. Really, you fucked up?

1:02:08

Yeah, john popped up now. So

1:02:15

after his arrest, and

1:02:15

imprisonment, a few things

1:02:17

happened. On February 24 1967,

1:02:17

he and two other inmates

1:02:24

actually escaped. They stole the

1:02:24

car and made a getaway. And they

1:02:29

of course, are dumb. And they

1:02:29

went to his brother's house and

1:02:32

Chelsea. And then the two other

1:02:32

fugitives were actually

1:02:36

recaptured at a bar. But you

1:02:36

mean where everybody knows their

1:02:40

name. So fear is gripping the

1:02:40

city. Of course, disalvo is out

1:02:49

and loose. And so women in the

1:02:49

city are terrified again.

1:02:52

Luckily, he was sees the next

1:02:52

day, he was kind of getting

1:02:56

prepared to turn himself in and

1:02:56

let the police capture him. And

1:03:00

then, six years later, he was

1:03:00

stabbed to death in prison. So

1:03:05

he'd never been charged with the

1:03:05

murder. People believe he was

1:03:10

the strangler, but you know,

1:03:10

there's some questions here. And

1:03:13

now he's dead. So we can't ever

1:03:13

really know. from his mouth,

1:03:19

other than what he had already

1:03:19

said, which was that Yeah, I'm

1:03:22

the strangler. So, yeah, here's

1:03:22

a few things that could change

1:03:27

or make up your mind about

1:03:27

whether or not he's the

1:03:30

strangler. So, one, as I stated

1:03:30

before, he was a really big

1:03:36

bracher. Like, even some of the

1:03:36

police involved in the

1:03:39

investigation, definitely

1:03:39

members of his family. Even some

1:03:43

of the victim's relatives were

1:03:43

just like no, like unconvinced,

1:03:47

like he's not the strangler, he

1:03:47

just isn't. They started to

1:03:50

think maybe he confessed for the

1:03:50

notoriety confessed to get the

1:03:54

end, the insanity play confessed

1:03:54

to get money, you know, thought

1:03:58

maybe he could take advantage of

1:03:58

the situation in some way. There

1:04:03

were even honestly, there were

1:04:03

books and movies done about the

1:04:07

Boston Strangler. So it was very

1:04:07

sensationalized. He did become a

1:04:12

celebrity from this in many

1:04:12

ways. So maybe he was just

1:04:16

thinking, I'm gonna lean in on

1:04:16

this and like, get me some money

1:04:19

out of this. You know, those

1:04:19

folks who believe that he was

1:04:25

just claiming he did all these

1:04:25

murders for notoriety? A lot of

1:04:29

them think that it was probably

1:04:29

eight or nine different killers

1:04:32

like there was enough difference

1:04:32

in mo that maybe the city was

1:04:36

just saying, like, we just need

1:04:36

to wrap this on a bow like the

1:04:40

nylon pant, or the nylon

1:04:40

stockings thing was close enough

1:04:44

that it can like get together.

1:04:44

They just wanted to be done with

1:04:47

it.

1:04:48

But and we talk about

1:04:48

this, like the human brain does

1:04:52

not like incomplete stories, and

1:04:52

especially when there's

1:04:56

individual safety, we want to

1:04:56

feel Okay, the bad guys in jail,

1:05:02

we can sleep at night, single

1:05:02

ladies.

1:05:06

You're all right now,

1:05:06

there are other people that say

1:05:09

that George Nasser was the

1:05:09

killer. And he said to salvage

1:05:14

the information. So there are a

1:05:14

couple things that might back

1:05:19

this up. For one, there was only

1:05:19

one person who apparently

1:05:23

escaped the strangler was

1:05:23

brought in to the prison to

1:05:26

identify, de salvo. And so what

1:05:26

they did was they decided to

1:05:31

have disalvo just walk through a

1:05:31

lobby that she was in to see if

1:05:37

she reacted, which I'm like,

1:05:37

that can be fucking traumatizing

1:05:41

if Yeah, too bad police work.

1:05:41

But yes, he walked through and

1:05:45

food in react she didn't know at

1:05:45

all. But then, by happenstance,

1:05:49

George Nasser also walked

1:05:49

through the room. And she said,

1:05:54

she didn't say that she was like, Oh, my God, that's him. But she said, she just got like,

1:05:56

a horrible, uneasy feeling when

1:05:59

she saw him that his like

1:05:59

posture, and the way he moved,

1:06:03

felt really recognizable to her,

1:06:03

which isn't the most compelling.

1:06:07

Like, I do think people have a

1:06:07

sixth sense to some extent for

1:06:10

like, evil danger. Yeah, that

1:06:10

man seems dangerous to me. But

1:06:17

it is something maybe that she

1:06:17

was like blind to disalvo, but,

1:06:21

quote, unquote, Nasser, and then

1:06:21

another story that says that

1:06:26

disalvo his own brother, Richard

1:06:26

came to visit him in prison. And

1:06:31

for some reason, NASA was like

1:06:31

nearby. A lot of things reported

1:06:36

that NASA kind of had like a

1:06:36

hole under salvo. And like, they

1:06:40

were never apart. And it kind of

1:06:40

seemed like, which I'm like, how

1:06:42

does that work in prison? Like,

1:06:42

how can you be like, never are

1:06:45

in prison? That doesn't make

1:06:45

sense to me. But anyways,

1:06:47

they're roommates. They

1:06:47

have bunk beds, they look at

1:06:50

each other. Did we just become

1:06:50

best friends? Yeah, yeah.

1:06:54

And so anyway, so Richard

1:06:54

disalvo, his brother is there.

1:06:59

And the story goes that disalvo

1:06:59

leaned in and said to his

1:07:02

brother, you want to know who

1:07:02

the real Boston Strangler is?

1:07:06

He's right over there. And he

1:07:06

nodded towards NASA. Oh, my God.

1:07:09

Now again? Yeah. Is this alphas

1:07:09

brother just saying this to try

1:07:13

to get his brother in jail? Like

1:07:13

there's a lot of plausible

1:07:16

deniability, here, whatever. But

1:07:16

there's a lot of things worth

1:07:20

like, Huh. Some questions here.

1:07:20

Again, though, just I was dead.

1:07:25

They've closed the case. You

1:07:25

know, they've said, He's the

1:07:28

Boston Strangler, like, okay,

1:07:28

we're done with this. And it

1:07:31

wasn't until July of 2013, that

1:07:31

Boston Police Department made a

1:07:36

break in the case. And that was

1:07:36

because of good old DNA.

1:07:41

DNA, we need like a,

1:07:41

like a sound effect of like DNA,

1:07:47

DNA, and dad on my finger that

1:07:47

will die now. It sounds that we

1:08:00

could do jingles for like

1:08:00

second, like local, commercial

1:08:04

or Sure. reach reach for the

1:08:04

stars, but stuff shorter on the

1:08:10

Christmas. Oh, my God,

1:08:14

oh my gosh. Okay. So they

1:08:14

actually believed that they had

1:08:19

found DNA evidence linking

1:08:19

disalvo to Mary Sullivan, who,

1:08:23

if you remember, was the final

1:08:23

victim of the strangler in 1964.

1:08:28

And so after they took DNA from

1:08:28

de salvos nephew, the Boston

1:08:33

Police said it was a quote near

1:08:33

certain match to DNA evidence

1:08:39

found on Mary Sullivan's body.

1:08:39

And so this discovery, they

1:08:44

ordered the exclamation of his

1:08:44

body. And after they extracted

1:08:49

some DNA from his femur, and

1:08:49

from some of his teeth, it was

1:08:53

determined that he was indeed

1:08:53

the man who killed and raped

1:08:56

Mary Sullivan. And so do you

1:08:56

think okay, it's kind of

1:09:00

posthumously declared him the

1:09:00

murder in that case, but you

1:09:04

know, the cases of the 12 other

1:09:04

Boston Strangler victims still

1:09:08

kind of technically remain a

1:09:08

mystery, you know, there's no

1:09:11

DNA and a match on the other

1:09:11

cases. And so for that reason,

1:09:15

50 years later, the case of the

1:09:15

Boston Strangler is technically

1:09:21

not solved. Yeah, thinking about

1:09:21

it, obviously, but technically

1:09:28

open to this day. But either

1:09:28

way, you know, whether it was

1:09:34

him or whether it wasn't, it's

1:09:34

actually one of those early

1:09:37

examples of the age of

1:09:37

television and like tabloid

1:09:40

journalism, and kind of helping

1:09:40

make a serial killer into a

1:09:43

celebrity. Yeah, now, like I

1:09:43

said, there are books and movies

1:09:48

made about him and the strangler

1:09:48

case. And now this is kind of

1:09:51

the norm. You know, obviously,

1:09:51

we have a podcast about it. So

1:09:56

100%

1:09:57

please set the stage for

1:09:57

all of morbidly Curious out

1:10:00

there. And so I know it's an

1:10:00

unsatisfying end, because

1:10:06

there's no real answer. And we

1:10:06

don't know the truth. But that

1:10:10

is the horrible, horrible story

1:10:10

of the Boston Strangler. It's

1:10:13

been 50 years since it took

1:10:13

place, and we still don't really

1:10:18

know who the killer is. So what

1:10:18

do you think? Oh, I think he

1:10:22

fucking did it. And even if he

1:10:22

didn't do all of them, there's

1:10:28

enough evidence to say he

1:10:28

deserved to have life in prison,

1:10:32

because he did, in fact, rape

1:10:32

and murder at least one victim,

1:10:38

but I would guess he probably

1:10:38

did more, because like we were

1:10:41

saying, sexually motivated

1:10:41

crimes escalate. And if he were

1:10:45

and so even if he didn't do all

1:10:45

of them, he did enough. Exactly,

1:10:49

well, and he definitely was

1:10:49

caught burglarizing, and was

1:10:53

recognized as the Green Man

1:10:53

which was a sexual assault

1:10:56

situation for many, many women

1:10:56

and definitely did rape and

1:11:00

murder Mary Sullivan, as you

1:11:00

just said, so it's like he

1:11:02

deserved to be in prison. But

1:11:02

yes, question in my mind as to

1:11:07

whether or not he did all of the

1:11:07

strangler murders. It I didn't,

1:11:14

I should have put this in here.

1:11:14

But I did read some history on

1:11:17

him. And he, like, grew up with

1:11:17

an alcoholic abusive father,

1:11:22

and, you know, was into killing

1:11:22

animals as a child. So he

1:11:25

definitely, like had that. Yeah,

1:11:25

psychopathic traits. And his

1:11:30

wife was interviewed at some

1:11:30

point and said that he was like

1:11:36

a sex addict, basically, and

1:11:36

demanded sex, like multiple

1:11:39

times a day, generally from her.

1:11:39

And so, you know, there's a lot

1:11:44

of things that do not to the

1:11:44

fact that it's very possible

1:11:46

that it was him. And then

1:11:46

actually, maybe this whole sex

1:11:51

addiction situation has answered

1:11:51

some of the questions about

1:11:55

like, well, how can we just like

1:11:55

was raping people from all

1:11:58

different age groups in all

1:11:58

different races? Like, maybe

1:12:02

just was, it was crimes of

1:12:02

circumstance, you know, like, he

1:12:06

just saw it and went for it? I

1:12:06

think, too

1:12:09

Especially with sexually

1:12:09

motivated crimes, there's a

1:12:12

power dynamic, where it doesn't

1:12:12

matter. And I mean, you and I,

1:12:18

obviously, like Weaver digra.

1:12:18

This is our fourth episode, but

1:12:20

you and I, outside of our

1:12:20

podcast talking about this stuff

1:12:23

all the time. It has nothing to

1:12:23

do like how physically

1:12:28

traditionally attractive

1:12:28

somebody is or what they're

1:12:30

wearing. rape is about power.

1:12:30

It's about that person saying, I

1:12:35

am going to violate you in this

1:12:35

incredibly intimate way and have

1:12:39

power over you. And so I think

1:12:39

that's what he did. Mm hmm. And

1:12:45

I'm glad you said, so.

1:12:48

Be and that is fine,

1:12:48

horrible, terrible story. But

1:12:53

that Yeah, I'm glad to know it.

1:12:53

Now. I guess sort of

1:12:56

I, I feel informed. And

1:12:56

that means we have done our

1:13:01

fucking job. I'm glad that I'm

1:13:01

glad we're recording happy hour

1:13:06

after this. So we can have a

1:13:06

drink? I'll say for real? Yeah.

1:13:11

Yeah. Um, it's interesting,

1:13:11

Emily, because the there are

1:13:16

some similarities in our story,

1:13:16

although my story is obviously

1:13:20

not the same as yours, but

1:13:20

similar time period in Boston,

1:13:25

and or in Massachusetts anyway.

1:13:25

And speaking about like, the

1:13:31

crazy fame that comes with

1:13:31

people and notoriety, I am going

1:13:37

to be doing the Kennedy curse,

1:13:37

throwbacks with JFK.

1:13:41

Isn't that crazy that I

1:13:41

had notes about JFK, his death

1:13:44

and like Lee Harvey Oswald. Our

1:13:44

brains are connected.

1:13:47

Yes. They really, really

1:13:47

are. And I I'm really excited

1:13:52

about this because it's another

1:13:52

one like the Boston Strangler

1:13:54

where I think everybody has

1:13:54

heard of the Kennedy curse. But

1:13:59

I didn't really know. Other than

1:13:59

obviously, I knew about a couple

1:14:02

of assassinations. I didn't

1:14:02

really know what the curse was.

1:14:05

So let's do it. Yay. So although

1:14:05

our story could start even

1:14:11

further back in time, I'm going

1:14:11

to start in Boston on September

1:14:16

6 1888. There, Joseph P. Kennedy

1:14:16

was born into an already

1:14:22

prominent family as his father.

1:14:22

PJ. How cute is that? For a

1:14:27

patriarch Patrick Joseph. I'm

1:14:27

gonna call him PJ. He's not

1:14:32

really in this story. Too much,

1:14:32

was a selfie businessman. Young

1:14:36

Joseph flourished with this leg

1:14:36

up, hashtag privilege, excelling

1:14:41

in school, going to Harvard, and

1:14:41

eventually settling down with

1:14:46

rose Fitzgerald. I say

1:14:46

Eventually, he was in his early

1:14:49

20s. They basically had an

1:14:49

arranged marriage without

1:14:52

calling it an arranged marriage.

1:14:52

It was like the only courtship

1:14:55

that either one of them had ever

1:14:55

been a part of. At 25 years old.

1:15:00

He became the youngest bank

1:15:00

president in the county, or I'm

1:15:04

sorry, in the country. Oh, as

1:15:04

the head of Columbia trust. On

1:15:09

May 29 1917. He was elected to

1:15:09

the Board of Trustees of the

1:15:15

Massachusetts Electric Company.

1:15:15

And this day was doubly special

1:15:20

because it was also the day that

1:15:20

rose gave birth to his second

1:15:24

son, john Fitzgerald Kennedy.

1:15:24

Yes, that john Fitzgerald

1:15:30

Kennedy, Jr. Okay. Jay Cole,

1:15:30

Joseph's professional life

1:15:36

continues to move forward. Even

1:15:36

in the midst of world war one

1:15:40

and the Spanish influencer. He

1:15:40

moved from banking to the film

1:15:44

industry in the 1920s. And this

1:15:44

guy, he's really savvy, really

1:15:49

business savvy. He gets rid of

1:15:49

most of his stocks before the

1:15:53

market crashes in 1929. He moves

1:15:53

from movie magic to real estate

1:15:58

to politics, and he just grows

1:15:58

wealth on wealth on wealth,

1:16:01

securing his family's dynasty.

1:16:01

He and Rose, including JFK, nine

1:16:07

children. Nine. Uh huh. Yeah.

1:16:07

And this, this guy, he's got

1:16:13

like the Midas touch the golden

1:16:13

touch. His family is healthy,

1:16:17

his business decisions are on

1:16:17

point. He's seemingly unimpacted

1:16:21

by the Great Depression. But

1:16:21

this is a podcast about horrible

1:16:26

history. so horrible things are

1:16:26

about to start happening.

1:16:32

unexpected happens. unexpected

1:16:32

twist. So much bad shit happens

1:16:39

to the Kennedy family. But I'm

1:16:39

only going through 1987 because

1:16:43

that's our policy. There is a

1:16:43

ton more after 1987. Of course,

1:16:48

if anybody knows about the

1:16:48

Kennedy family. And I'm going to

1:16:52

just a little teaser, the happy

1:16:52

hour with horrible history

1:16:56

segment that we're going to

1:16:56

record after this. And it's

1:16:59

going to drop right after this

1:16:59

as well. I'm going to be

1:17:05

covering one of the bigger

1:17:05

stories that actually starts pre

1:17:09

1987 but goes on until 2020. So

1:17:09

if you're into that, become a

1:17:15

patron and you can hear us

1:17:15

drink, theorize and talk more

1:17:18

horrible. At least twice a

1:17:18

month. I am going to start with

1:17:22

the only real theory that I've

1:17:22

heard about the curse because I

1:17:26

love a good conspiracy theory.

1:17:26

And, again, this is a conspiracy

1:17:32

theory. There's really not that

1:17:32

much behind it. But it's from a

1:17:35

book why tragedy has haunted

1:17:35

America's first family for 150

1:17:39

years by Edward Klein. According

1:17:39

to a story that is told in

1:17:43

mystical Jewish circles shortly

1:17:43

before the outbreak of World War

1:17:47

Two. Joseph Kennedy, who is then

1:17:47

ambassador to the court of St.

1:17:52

James in London, returned to the

1:17:52

United States aboard an ocean

1:17:57

liner that was also carrying

1:17:57

Israel Jacobsen, a poor Rabbi

1:18:02

and six of his students who were

1:18:02

fleeing the Nazis. Kennedy

1:18:06

complained to the captain that

1:18:06

the bearded black clad Jews were

1:18:10

upsetting the first class

1:18:10

passengers by preying on the

1:18:14

Jewish holy holiday of Rosh

1:18:14

Hashanah. How dare they road,

1:18:20

Kennedy demanded that the

1:18:20

captain stop the Jews from

1:18:23

conducting their services in

1:18:23

front of other passengers. In

1:18:27

retaliation, or so the story

1:18:27

goes, Rabbi Jacobson put a curse

1:18:32

on Kennedy, damning him and all

1:18:32

his male offspring to tragic

1:18:37

saints. I

1:18:38

I had no idea that the

1:18:38

Kennedy curse was not just like,

1:18:44

a like what like you know a

1:18:44

little like, saying that people

1:18:48

put to it that it's actually a

1:18:48

freakin curse like

1:18:52

that. Well, and that's a

1:18:52

conspiracy theory. It's like

1:18:54

urban myth. But I wanted to read

1:18:54

it because I was trying to find

1:18:59

Why do people call it the

1:18:59

Kennedy curse? I'm gonna forever

1:19:02

assume that a rabbi put curse on

1:19:02

them as rabbis I will are known

1:19:06

to do I love the idea of this

1:19:06

guy being a dick and being like

1:19:12

all white privilege and how dare

1:19:12

you fled the Nazis you Jewish

1:19:16

people and prey on your high

1:19:16

holy days. I don't know if any

1:19:19

of That's true, but it says so

1:19:19

in the book. So don't take it up

1:19:23

with me. We'll leave the book in

1:19:23

our sources. I want to jump

1:19:28

ahead to the 1940s because

1:19:28

that's where shit really starts

1:19:32

to hit the fan for this family.

1:19:32

It's November 1941. Rosemary

1:19:38

Kennedy. She's the third child

1:19:38

and the first daughter born into

1:19:42

the family. She's 23 years old

1:19:42

in 1941. Rosemary has always

1:19:48

struggled in school. She has

1:19:48

also suffered from mood swings,

1:19:52

seizures, and violent outbursts.

1:19:52

Most likely, these symptoms can

1:19:58

be traced back to the actions of

1:19:58

a parent Nik nurse, so I'm going

1:20:01

to jump back a little further to

1:20:01

1918. We're mid pandemic, not

1:20:06

COVID the other panda. I know it

1:20:06

feels like COVID has been going

1:20:10

back since 1918. But it has not.

1:20:10

So rose remember rose Fitzgerald

1:20:16

Kennedy, who is Joseph's wife,

1:20:16

JFK, his mother, roses doctor

1:20:22

got caught up with other

1:20:22

patients, other sick people, how

1:20:26

dare they in the Spanish

1:20:26

influenza, so he didn't make it

1:20:29

in time for rose to deliver

1:20:29

rosemary. So the nurse, she

1:20:35

might have been a midwife

1:20:35

decides it would be best

1:20:38

practice to hold roses legs

1:20:38

together. No, Rosemary was held

1:20:46

in for two hours with minimal

1:20:46

oxygen to her brain.

1:20:53

Oh my god, I feel so

1:20:53

horrible for her. And I feel

1:20:56

awful for rose to like, I feel

1:20:56

like doesn't that mean that Rose

1:21:01

was like literally at the like,

1:21:01

worst part of labor where the

1:21:04

baby's like in the birth canal?

1:21:04

And it was just a few hours. And

1:21:08

I'm sure obviously with no drugs

1:21:08

like, how did she not die? That

1:21:12

sounds off. I

1:21:13

mean, she probably could

1:21:13

have I don't know. I mean, my

1:21:17

babies were c sections. So I

1:21:17

don't know. I would imagine when

1:21:21

that heads coming out. It

1:21:21

probably is the worst part. And

1:21:25

she just called her legs

1:21:25

together, which is insane. I

1:21:29

don't know if the implications

1:21:29

they had to know it wasn't good

1:21:32

for the baby. But I don't know

1:21:32

that they had the the research

1:21:35

we have now to know how oxygen

1:21:35

how the brain needs oxygen. But

1:21:41

seriously, just having left the baby.

1:21:43

Well, and this is a great

1:21:43

note as to why we all need to

1:21:47

wear masks. Because when the

1:21:47

hospitals get overrun with a

1:21:50

pandemic victims, babies don't

1:21:50

get oxygen health care workers.

1:21:53

We love you so much.

1:21:53

Thank you. We always wear a

1:21:56

mask. Okay. Anyway, back to the

1:21:56

40s. Obviously, there's still a

1:22:01

lot of stigma on mental health.

1:22:01

But, Emily, don't worry. Because

1:22:06

if there's something wrong with

1:22:06

your brain in the 40s, there's a

1:22:09

cure. It's called a lobotomy.

1:22:09

Have you heard of it?

1:22:13

Oh, my God.

1:22:14

Oh my gosh,

1:22:15

I cannot believe Yeah,

1:22:15

that was something that they

1:22:18

used to do.

1:22:18

Yeah, it was common

1:22:18

practice. Mm hmm. Well, it

1:22:22

didn't go so well for rosemary.

1:22:22

And at 23 years old, she was

1:22:26

left mentally and physically

1:22:26

incapacitated, the Family Center

1:22:31

to an institution in Wisconsin,

1:22:31

and she became a dirty little

1:22:36

secret. Joseph Santera to this

1:22:36

place and didn't tell JFK, or

1:22:42

Joe Jr. or any of the kids about

1:22:42

it for 20 years. Wait,

1:22:46

weren't they? Oh, like,

1:22:46

wasn't? Wouldn't he have been

1:22:49

like 25 or something? How would

1:22:49

he just not be like, Where'd my

1:22:53

sister go?

1:22:54

He did and they just

1:22:54

wouldn't tell him. So like they

1:22:57

didn't they just sent her away.

1:22:57

And they were like, Oh, she's

1:22:59

just a way they didn't tell her.

1:22:59

And she spent the rest of her

1:23:02

life institutionalised. She

1:23:02

didn't die. I didn't write it

1:23:05

down. But it was like, post 2000

1:23:05

that's what a horrible life,

1:23:11

huh? We're going to keep up the

1:23:11

terror with how World War Two

1:23:16

impacts the Kennedys. So we're

1:23:16

still in the 40s Joe Kennedy Jr.

1:23:21

and john F. Kennedy both served

1:23:21

in World War Two. JFK was

1:23:26

injured in 1943 and almost died.

1:23:26

I don't know that I wrote this

1:23:31

down. But he suffered from a lot

1:23:31

of pain related to war injury. I

1:23:35

think there are some stories

1:23:35

about him with Dr. Feelgood. I

1:23:38

didn't really get into it. But

1:23:38

Joe Jr. was actually killed in

1:23:44

an explosion of a bomber that he

1:23:44

was piloting. So he was on some

1:23:48

top secret mission with a plane

1:23:48

full of bombs and blew up

1:23:51

somewhere in Europe. Uh huh. A

1:23:51

month later, Kathleen Kennedy

1:23:57

whose child number four of

1:23:57

Josephine rose, I'm going to be

1:24:01

doing a lot of naming people and

1:24:01

then telling you how they're

1:24:03

related. Because there's a ton

1:24:03

of fucking Kennedy's. Kathleen,

1:24:07

she has this really cute

1:24:07

nickname, they called her kick,

1:24:10

which I think is really cute. I

1:24:10

do too. I do too. But she was

1:24:16

married to someone who also died

1:24:16

in the war. And then she got

1:24:21

remarried. But she died in 1948

1:24:21

in a plane crash in France. So

1:24:31

Joe Jr. dies in a plane kick

1:24:31

dies in a plane A few years

1:24:35

later. I feel like there's more

1:24:35

plane crashes in the future. Do

1:24:39

you have I do recall. Oh, just

1:24:39

wait. There are so many plane

1:24:43

crashes. And I mean, as if you

1:24:43

read my mind, the next line that

1:24:46

I had written down was, as if

1:24:46

all of this was not enough

1:24:50

incentive to stay away from air

1:24:50

travel in October 1955. So

1:24:56

Kennedy, who is Robert F.

1:24:56

Kennedy's wife. Last both of her

1:25:00

And in George Skakel in a plane

1:25:00

crash in Oklahoma.

1:25:05

Wow. So it's like the

1:25:05

curse even extends beyond the

1:25:09

family itself and to those who

1:25:09

married in last few. Yep. Wow.

1:25:14

onto the 60s. On

1:25:14

December 19 1961, Joseph

1:25:21

Kennedy, the father of the

1:25:21

patriarch, suffered a stroke

1:25:24

that paralyzed the right side of

1:25:24

his body and left him barely

1:25:28

able to communicate. But he was

1:25:28

still completely mentally

1:25:33

coherent.

1:25:36

That is my absolute worst

1:25:36

nightmare. I know. I've said

1:25:38

that many times. Like, it's

1:25:38

oceans. No, it's fires like

1:25:42

that. All the things. Yeah. What

1:25:42

if you were in a coma? But you

1:25:46

could totally hear and see

1:25:46

everything, like, didn't say

1:25:50

anything. Oh my god, that sounds awful.

1:25:53

But wait, it gets worse.

1:25:53

He lives for another eight

1:25:57

years. So guess what? He gets to

1:25:57

see two of his sons assassinated

1:26:02

JFK and RFK. And he cannot talk

1:26:02

about it. His health continues

1:26:10

to deteriorate until November 18

1:26:10

1969 when he dies in his home in

1:26:15

Massachusetts at the age of 81.

1:26:15

So not only does he witness, I

1:26:21

mean, it's on TV. You know,

1:26:21

these are both televised. But he

1:26:26

can't talk to anybody about it.

1:26:26

Talk about just bottling up

1:26:30

here. Emotions hurt like you

1:26:30

can't yet not when you have that

1:26:33

situation. That's up. Yeah. And

1:26:33

in fairness, he's a man in the

1:26:38

60s. So probably it wasn't

1:26:38

socially. It wasn't a social

1:26:42

norm yet for men to be able to

1:26:42

talk about their feelings in a

1:26:45

healthy way. So he might not

1:26:45

have any way but he can't. He

1:26:50

probably can't cry about it. He

1:26:50

can't talk with his wife about

1:26:53

it. Yeah,

1:26:53

like, maybe it wasn't common for men to talk about their feelings or go to therapy,

1:26:55

but I would hope at least some

1:26:58

of them talk to their wives, you

1:26:58

know, or Yeah, closed doors or

1:27:02

something. So he's just that's

1:27:02

the worst case scenario. Yes,

1:27:07

yes. So let's talk about

1:27:07

more tragedy. May, JFK, and

1:27:12

jackieo lose their baby Patrick,

1:27:12

on August 9 1963, of infant

1:27:19

respiratory distress syndrome,

1:27:19

two days after he was born

1:27:23

prematurely. I think he was a

1:27:23

month or so premature. Few

1:27:28

months later, on November 22

1:27:28

1963, john F. Kennedy was

1:27:33

assassinated in Dallas, Texas.

1:27:33

Obviously, this is a tragic loss

1:27:39

that deserves its own episode.

1:27:39

So much information, so many

1:27:42

conspiracy theories will cover

1:27:42

it eventually. The only thing

1:27:47

I'm going to say here is that

1:27:47

Jackie was sitting right next to

1:27:51

john and ended up covered in his

1:27:51

blood and brain matter. And this

1:27:56

is barking horrifying. Yes. And

1:27:56

speaking of the worst thing we

1:28:01

can imagine, this is three

1:28:01

months after baring her baby.

1:28:06

Oh, yeah,

1:28:08

the video of that. Like,

1:28:08

I haven't really watched it

1:28:12

because it's too sad. But you

1:28:12

see the pictures and whatever.

1:28:16

And just like, of course, my

1:28:16

empathetic brain goes to just

1:28:20

like picturing that moment and I

1:28:20

can't I can't deal with how

1:28:24

awful that must have been.

1:28:26

Obviously, our podcast

1:28:26

is not the authority we're well

1:28:29

researched. But if you want to

1:28:29

really deep dive into JFK, and

1:28:33

the conspiracy theories, last

1:28:33

podcast on the left is like a

1:28:36

five part series about it. And

1:28:36

they talk about Jackie like

1:28:41

holding different parts of JFK,

1:28:41

his brain and trying to like

1:28:45

smush them back together. She's

1:28:45

in such shock and then she like,

1:28:49

goes to the hospital. Or they

1:28:49

go, you know, get back to

1:28:52

wherever they are. And she's

1:28:52

like, fix him, like put them

1:28:54

back together. That's not how

1:28:54

this works, I'm afraid. No, no,

1:28:59

this is not like a Humpty Dumpty

1:28:59

situation. Like you can't

1:29:02

Yeah. Oh, and also the

1:29:02

movie Jackie was really good. I

1:29:06

saw it's like from her

1:29:06

perspective, and Natalie Portman

1:29:09

is like incredible in it and

1:29:09

even talks about her stuff. And

1:29:13

you know, you hear everything

1:29:13

about the Kennedys and jokin

1:29:16

nation and this was her her side

1:29:16

of the story. And it was kind of

1:29:20

fascinating.

1:29:21

Yes, yeah. I'm gonna

1:29:21

have to we should like watch

1:29:25

that via via Skype or something

1:29:25

later. That sounds really good

1:29:28

via FaceTime. Okay, so less than

1:29:28

a year later, it's June 1964.

1:29:35

Ted Kennedy, the youngest at the

1:29:35

Kennedy plan survives a plane

1:29:40

crash that killed one of his

1:29:40

aides as well as the pilot. Ted

1:29:45

spent five months in the

1:29:45

hospital recovering from a

1:29:48

broken back. punctured lung

1:29:48

broken ribs and internal

1:29:51

bleeding. Seriously, Kennedys.

1:29:51

No more planes. No more cars.

1:29:56

Just stay in your beautiful East

1:29:56

Coast houses forever the Hampton

1:30:00

To say, just stay in the fuckin

1:30:00

Hamptons. I know it's not

1:30:03

Massachusetts. But listen, you

1:30:03

can afford to live there. In

1:30:06

case you're still not convinced

1:30:06

that there's a curse. On June 5

1:30:11

1968, US Senator Robert F.

1:30:11

Kennedy won the California

1:30:16

Democratic primary. But before

1:30:16

you start celebrating, he was

1:30:21

shot that same night and died on

1:30:21

the morning of June six Bobby.

1:30:25

Two kids assassinated. Yep.

1:30:25

Bobby Kennedy. So let's go back

1:30:31

to ted kennedy because his badge

1:30:31

date is not over yet. In July of

1:30:36

1969, he drove his car off a

1:30:36

bridge on Chappaquiddick Island.

1:30:42

His passenger was 28 year old

1:30:42

Mary Jo Kopechne me who died by

1:30:46

drowning. This story also

1:30:46

deserves its own deep dive. It's

1:30:51

bananas. Essentially, Ted did

1:30:51

not call the police after he

1:30:56

drove off the bridge. He goes

1:30:56

back to his hotel. Mary Jo's it

1:31:02