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1:50

Back to Game of Thrones

1:52

to electric. Blue

1:54

Collude. I mean it was the

1:57

Anthony This. Week we explore

1:59

of. Important V on

2:01

chapter. Tons of literary complexity

2:04

in this chapter. And.

2:06

So I needed an English professor to

2:08

help me cover this. and only does

2:10

seventy Barbara Hammer have a keen eye

2:13

for. Literary. Complexity. She's.

2:15

Also one of the few people I've

2:17

ever met who is fascinated by the

2:19

on great Joy. So. She's the

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perfect person to talk with me

2:24

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Stephanie Barbie Hammer. Or

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I first things first Staff: I'm

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excited to talk v on with

2:57

the oh yeah. We're

2:59

going to definitely get to that bots.

3:02

I. Know that you're always active

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so you always have something that just

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got published or you just finished writing

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and I just wanna hear what you're

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up to. Yeah. Well I'm

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my new novel that came

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this is Journey to Metals

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of magical realism about a

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latin next almost credentials case.

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through twelve teacher on his

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way to a pipe band

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conference in France Canada, he

3:37

meets a damsel in distress

3:40

who was a very bratty.

3:42

Goth girl from New York and

3:44

she claims to have made friends

3:46

with an elderly man was gone

3:48

missing on the train her and

3:50

she can't find him as he

3:52

helps her. With

3:55

as exciting and your no

3:57

stranger to the detectives zone

3:59

or ah. That's my impression

4:01

anyway. Yes, I love the

4:03

Detective. John or I think it's

4:05

it's an amazing. It's an amazing

4:08

form, the can be so formula,

4:10

but when really brilliant people use

4:12

it, it can really come alive

4:15

and become something very exciting. So

4:17

it's a it's a formula that

4:19

I actually enjoy working with because

4:22

there's certain structures to it. As.it's

4:25

a little bit like ballet. you know

4:27

they're all these these these strict thing

4:29

that us to do but then in

4:31

that you can just go crazy and

4:33

have a great time. Okay,

4:36

Well this is almost like this

4:38

chapter with the on is a

4:40

tiny detective novella with him this

4:42

larger books. Well. It certainly

4:45

is something I'm sure it. Yes, there

4:47

is, I guess at. And there was

4:49

certainly a mystery and talk about missing

4:51

persons. It's certainly. A story

4:54

of missing persons without question.

4:56

where did they go with

4:58

their friends is T has

5:00

to play detective early on

5:02

because. He. Finds his double murder

5:04

and now he's got a kind of. Figure.

5:07

Out the clues had this happen?

5:09

What's going on where these kids

5:11

who all and I miss seen.

5:14

Them you know tend to become this

5:17

man hunt a situation such a great

5:19

way to think about it that it's

5:21

a detect to start at. Oh my

5:23

gosh, I cannot think of a person

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less up to the task of the

5:28

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He does these not totally.

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Inexperienced with track team.

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Ne sont completely. But.

6:47

She can read certain signs, but I

6:49

feel like you just only read the

6:51

signs then. Ah, Show once

6:53

him defined and of course

6:55

he misinterpreted Spam and Only

6:57

but he's crying. He's. Referring

7:01

Just try Air. There's no question

7:03

about us, that's a wonderful point

7:05

about him as a tracker that

7:08

he does know how to do

7:10

that via ends. Yes, See.

7:14

It's. Know he sees only.

7:16

What Asa wants him to see?

7:18

That's certainly true, but he also

7:21

only sees for she wants to

7:23

see See is so. Strangely.

7:27

Limited. In. Terms

7:29

of his own perspicacity

7:32

and. Up

7:34

Martin does such a sense to

7:36

job with this character and I

7:39

I come back to see on

7:41

a lot because I know someone

7:43

who. I want

7:45

to have sympathy. For is

7:48

a do with polite jones

7:50

but I don't do any

7:52

of this is good. Because

7:56

I want to tell you. Can

7:59

avoid girl. Sort of

8:01

how the sausages made. but

8:03

yeah know when I'm I'm

8:05

assigning these chapters. It's very

8:07

see on is very difficult

8:09

to find. Someone.

8:11

Find guess for. right? I

8:13

believe that many many many of my

8:16

guess say I would be happy to

8:18

do any chapter but I'm just I

8:20

can't deal with the on. Sept

8:24

five states. And of course that's

8:26

why he's so interesting. To me

8:28

it's like oh my gosh, this

8:30

guy. He's such a mass Yeah,

8:33

but that's and I remember a

8:35

previous conversation we had where you

8:37

said you know what, He's. Doing.

8:40

His best with what he has seen

8:42

that he's always got the kind of

8:44

that the smile on his face to

8:46

try to sort of survive. In

8:49

between these cultures and in

8:51

almost an impossible situation? Oh

8:53

complete. I'm in a complete

8:55

so. Anyway, I thought wide,

8:57

I gotta bring step back

8:59

to talk about the subject

9:01

because. To me, he's

9:03

fascinating because. His.

9:06

Conflict in motivations.

9:09

Are on the surface in the

9:11

way that very few characters conflicting

9:13

motivations are on the surface? Yes,

9:15

it's very clear that he wants

9:17

to. Be. Perceived as a

9:19

good lord like needs Iraq

9:21

was a good lord Ray

9:23

Rice and wants to impress

9:25

dad girl who and is

9:27

he a stain sat right

9:30

and Etti a sister who

9:32

also disdains him. Rate is

9:34

just impossible. For. Him

9:36

to serve both fathers. right?

9:39

And yet. And. He a hot

9:41

but he also that like you just mentioned he's also

9:43

got his sister in the back of his head. And.

9:47

She's just she just

9:49

occupying space. right? In

9:51

his psyche and he he just

9:53

he just can't imagine. Her.

9:56

Derision he doesn't wanna add. Appear

9:59

foolish. In. Her eyes

10:01

great I'm in this chapter he

10:03

mentions her three times she's not

10:05

you out is nowhere near the

10:07

situation but see heart see haunts

10:09

him he i am very very

10:12

deathless or what. I went back

10:14

and look out well as I

10:16

was getting ready to talk with

10:18

you about this chapter is I

10:20

went and and went back to

10:22

see Ons Homecoming. Earlier in

10:24

this book. And.

10:27

Threads. And of his system.

10:29

As you say this as his

10:32

volunteering to do this. This task

10:34

for Rob is set some mistake

10:36

because he doesn't know the culture.

10:39

He's been gone for ten years

10:41

and there's some moments in that

10:43

early chapter. That. I think

10:46

about I've been thinking about with in

10:48

conjunction with this and a season he

10:50

has to cross all these bridges to

10:53

get to. The throne room

10:55

or in to get to the inner

10:57

part of the castle and he looks

10:59

system. And every bridge

11:01

is narrower than the last

11:03

one until it's too rope.

11:05

It's the rope and place

11:07

bridge that he scared to

11:09

walk on cause he's afraid

11:12

he's been a plunge over

11:14

the size and that on

11:16

the whole book is is

11:18

that is these bridges for

11:20

him that every set of

11:22

choices gets narrower and narrower

11:24

and narrower and more and

11:26

more dangerous. I'm.

11:30

But. Yeah and see I'm alice

11:32

step would made it is even

11:34

more perilous. Every every step I

11:37

take right and rear end missteps

11:39

become more and more likely. Because.

11:42

The bridge is getting narrower and

11:44

narrower. and narrower as the through.

11:46

Awesome. I hadn't thought about that,

11:48

but I think you're right and

11:50

I think that boosts like. I

11:53

mean he could just for priests. Were going to

11:55

talk about the the idea of cruelty in this

11:57

chapter but. If. sometimes with.

12:00

Martin is very cruel. Us is

12:02

very cruel the Fi I'm he

12:04

just can. He keeps on sort

12:07

of box in a man and

12:09

giving them yes impossible choices. He

12:11

only has a selection. Of

12:14

bad bad Choice Awards Worse

12:16

Choice. right? Hand those

12:18

selections continue to be smaller and

12:20

smaller so that place so we

12:23

should feel really sorry for him.

12:25

We. Said we should have but we

12:28

don't. Size we doubt and I think

12:30

back to the double Ness feet cause

12:32

I'm. I think I can say

12:34

this on on your purchase he's a bit of an

12:36

asshole or see on yeah he is. He's

12:39

a he's a jerk

12:42

and there's nothing really

12:44

redeeming about him. As

12:47

a person the and I'm you

12:50

know I love to do this.

12:52

I love to go back to

12:54

the chapter both for the chapter

12:56

we're discussing because as Martin is

12:58

so brilliant with these multiple points

13:00

of view which you know I

13:02

like to use as an author

13:05

see so great at setting up

13:07

these contrasts. And. The

13:09

Up: So the chapter we have

13:11

before this is tearing him Syrian

13:13

Moving through you know, a day

13:15

in the life of the hand

13:17

you know? To. Be he's

13:19

he's not conquering, he's

13:22

not journeying. He's got

13:24

this job and she's

13:26

doing it very well.

13:30

And. For. Pretty. Making the

13:32

decisions is making hard decisions even if

13:34

that people will not like him for

13:36

it. Right and also really

13:38

being very dispassionately analytical. Okay, so

13:41

Sir sees got these guys, but

13:43

the Kings guard. This guy's okay.

13:46

This guy is not okay. Good

13:48

to know that's a mistake. so

13:50

we're gonna have that's gonna have

13:53

to get rectified. Let's

13:55

talk to the Pyro Male sex. Oh

13:57

this is how many jars of.

14:00

Are we? Have how come we have more?

14:02

What's going on at Oh they're all

14:04

these people who want to who were

14:07

conspiring to rebel and help stance Let's

14:09

do we must do we need to

14:11

deal with them and some of this

14:13

is very work is boring, some of

14:15

this is interesting what needs to be

14:17

done let's do it and at a

14:20

certain point in that chapter there's of

14:22

curious. His. Room vaguely

14:24

remember C and C on comes

14:26

to mind and. Oh

14:29

barton history and say right

14:31

he was that theory. Hello

14:33

Use I barely remember him.

14:36

very tell of use. always

14:38

smiling. And then

14:40

here's here's here's here's see on.

14:43

Trying to be.

14:45

Oh lord, who was a conqueror you

14:48

know, trying to be rats? And he?

14:50

he totally can't do it. He

14:53

can't do it. He thinks he's

14:55

been preparing his whole life force

14:57

riding along. Use line right, right?

14:59

but every single stab. Is

15:01

a misstep and. He'll

15:03

never live up to whomever be

15:06

loved. Legged man is. And.

15:08

Will never be able to be as

15:10

cruel as his biological father is, right?

15:13

right? And so he's He's this

15:15

creature in between. Yeah, I'm always

15:17

trying to please both a never

15:20

going to be a with the

15:22

please any and. In the meantime

15:24

always thinking oh you know

15:26

his default will we. Should feel

15:28

sorry for his default as well. You

15:30

know I'm going to be great anyway.

15:33

Also, you and who can I sleep

15:35

with? Switches,

15:37

You know what gives it to

15:39

be brims with the right here

15:41

you can't sleep for family when

15:43

civic live right around here to

15:45

let me find one else. I

15:47

said the I have very soon

15:50

man I city fc really keeping

15:52

an eye on on Bran and

15:54

Reckon and Company. Because. They're

15:56

the you know what brand is. Bull is the

15:58

lord of the of the castle. I should

16:00

be keeping an eye on him. He's

16:02

a cripple, but so what. I should

16:04

be paying attention because she's valuable. So.

16:07

I should be guarding him. Summer split

16:09

know he's like okay where's the Tavern

16:12

wins and you know these kids who

16:14

clears these kids are everything you should

16:16

be carrying out and he knows this

16:18

after the fact. He kinda like chides

16:21

himself after the fact that suits whether

16:23

he tonight what he tells himself as

16:25

I thought it was a more important

16:27

have men on the wall rights own

16:30

rights. But anyway let me read my

16:32

synopsis of the Us out of. The.

16:38

On Wigs image bed with Kira

16:41

beside him and silent works at

16:43

the foot of his bed. He

16:46

tries to ensure himself that all

16:48

as well, but notices the absence

16:50

of wolf howling. Learning.

16:53

That bran reckon? officer.

16:56

Who. Door and the Bog children are

16:58

missing. The On investigates the

17:00

murder of to iron border guards and

17:03

determines that Us in the Wolves are

17:05

to blame. He. Interrogate the

17:07

remaining people, have wonderful with

17:09

no success. And. organizes

17:11

a hunting party, But.

17:14

The trail goes colds at a

17:16

nearby broke. Feeling. Desperate.

17:19

The. On takes a hint from the man

17:21

they called Reek. And. He decides

17:23

to find the solution to his problem. At.

17:26

The Mill near Acorn

17:28

Water. Seventy bi

17:30

hammer what he wants hug or whether they.

17:34

Well let's talk about Arse

17:36

our our buddy. See on

17:38

and see is. The

17:41

different voices in his head. Movement.

17:44

Okay, because they're a lot

17:46

of them. And one of

17:48

the things that I really

17:51

admire about Martin is his

17:53

ability to use inner inner

17:55

dialogue, inner monologue so that

17:57

were inside the person's head.

18:00

While all these other things are happening,

18:02

and while they're doing all these things,

18:05

And Martin does such a

18:07

great job of showing us.

18:10

That. See on. His.completely

18:13

stupid. Keys.

18:15

But she's. Deceived.

18:18

About himself and his own

18:20

abilities and yet he isn't

18:22

completely. There's so much conflict

18:24

going on within within himself,

18:26

and Barton does a great

18:28

job of showing us that.

18:31

Are. Conflict In this chapter.

18:35

So weren't Who are the boys? Who

18:37

do you think the voices are in

18:39

his home with one voice is a

18:42

really smart, sort of instinctive voice. and

18:44

I'm struck by how. How.

18:46

You were talking a little while

18:48

ago about arms, so he's a

18:51

tracker. His instincts are good. He says

18:53

we'll wait a minute. This is it's very beginning.

18:55

Wait a minute. Why don't I hear? The

18:57

wolves. ah, something's wrong.

19:00

As if he could rely

19:03

on those instincts more. He'd.

19:05

Be better off. By. See

19:07

does and doesn't. Ago he wakes up at

19:09

all is coming into C News I know.

19:12

He. He wakes up because he feels

19:14

something's wrong and he's yeah, he's his

19:16

own over here. He has this sort

19:18

of analytical side is like saying, look,

19:20

Everything. Should be fine. and then

19:23

it's almost like will than one

19:25

wife feel like something's wrong and

19:27

many cases the gut feeling about

19:30

right. The instincts. His instincts are

19:32

good but she doesn't. Use

19:35

the Manassas. He doesn't

19:37

listen to them and off or he

19:39

listens to them at you know after

19:41

after the fact yes and we can

19:43

see that are already in the beginning

19:45

of the chapter, this kind of conflict

19:47

where he says what is it. He.

19:49

Doesn't say he's thinking to himself, what

19:51

is it Did I hear something But

19:53

when side safely against the shutters somewhere

19:56

far off he heard the yeah, I'll

19:58

have a Cat in Heat that. Perfect

20:00

for him. Of course he

20:02

would hear that nothing else.

20:05

Sleep great joy he told

20:07

himself. The. Castle is quiet

20:09

and you have guards posted at your

20:11

door at the gets on the going.

20:13

I don't know who that voices, but

20:15

it's the voice of deception. And

20:18

self deception Riker finds. It's

20:20

all sides. None of it is fine. And

20:23

it's going to get much less fine

20:25

in a minute. But.

20:27

I think that's I don't. That's.

20:30

One voice that's obvious that was as can do

20:32

this You've got this and like know you don't.

20:36

Sell that so narcissistic. Course, I

20:39

don't think this is a hard

20:41

vs. head. To the

20:43

thing soon as he was more like,

20:45

like the voice he's created to pump

20:48

himself up and make him feel lordly

20:50

or princely. Yes, I

20:52

mean, he's also got this other sort

20:54

of reality check voice. Yeah.

20:56

Home. I don't know how would you describe use

20:59

to who has. I would. Say. I'm

21:01

guessing again, Martin's genius

21:03

is it isn't. Heart versus

21:05

head. it's and we'll have a bunch

21:08

of voices in our head. If.

21:10

You think about the cycle, there's my

21:12

mother talking. There's you know, there's my

21:14

mess. And for second grade talking there's

21:17

my dogs. The from when I was

21:19

a kid, there's my my spouse from

21:21

now talking. in my head. I think

21:23

it's a bunch of voices. But.

21:26

One of the miss. Certainly

21:28

this Verizon. It's this narcissistic

21:30

voice say, oh, everything's great

21:32

It comes up again. Worse.

21:35

Or as what All's well. great joy The

21:37

still the beginning of the chapter. Steer the

21:39

quiet. you want to be drunk with joy.

21:42

No no, We. Shouldn't but at

21:44

some sort of narcissistic. Little.

21:46

For you know I'm great Skier great. Everything

21:49

that you do is great. Look what you

21:51

did Stew took litter fell again I'm quoting

21:53

Stitch. Wonderful was do with and thirty mans

21:55

of seek to sing. Of really minimum

21:58

of mean to say of. That's

22:00

real. Good. To. Be

22:02

say are too poor see on. That's

22:05

maybe how he stayed. Alive

22:08

all this time as

22:10

a glorified hostage. To.

22:13

This family national Park right.

22:16

So that's him as you seem way

22:18

into this because I kinda feel like

22:21

he's got this idea of like. The.

22:23

Demeanor of. An

22:26

Iron Born Sailor. He's like he's

22:29

got this idea that like well

22:31

the a true iron born sailor

22:33

is someone who swashbuckling who last

22:35

in the face of danger. you

22:38

know it even would be great

22:40

if we did drown because then

22:42

we could be with the know

22:45

Our. Forebears. Under the

22:47

Deep Fry and and Valhalla

22:49

Underwater Valhalla. Yes, that's right.

22:51

And he's almost like thinking

22:54

that he is he. That's

22:56

that's his true self. Like

22:58

a devil may care attitude.

23:00

But really, That's. Not him

23:03

at all. So. He's worried

23:05

about doing the wrong thing

23:07

and saying the wrong thing

23:09

because. He. Was not

23:11

raised. A great joy. He

23:13

was raised stark. Even

23:16

though he always kind of knew that

23:18

he was an outsider so he'd humans

23:20

has this idea of what it would

23:22

mean to be a mean Great Joys

23:24

kind of the perfect name here. it's

23:26

like Uma the that the waves are

23:28

high in the in, the winds are

23:30

blowing and everything's going wrong. But let's

23:32

laugh and party because yeah that's what

23:34

it means to be a raider him

23:36

iron born. That's such a great

23:39

point! Anthony Am I guess what

23:41

I would add to that

23:43

is this vision of. What?

23:46

An iron born. Lord.

23:48

And soldiers supposed to be is

23:50

it's High Elves version of that.

23:53

Be Closer hasn't been home

23:55

and ten years so she's got

23:57

this you're helping me kind of.

24:00

It really get into this character

24:02

who I'm not feeling a bit

24:04

more sorry for. he says developmentally

24:06

arrested person. Who. Was carrying

24:08

around this five year old

24:10

or movies six year old.

24:13

Idea of what his culture is.

24:15

So yes it's is the Us.

24:17

it's that. It's the what is

24:19

a close Yes, it's the seat

24:22

to sing of something. A

24:24

little kid would think yeah

24:26

and couldn't be a hero

24:28

when I'm swashbuckling and nothing

24:30

worries me? Is this completely.

24:33

Child. This view of what

24:35

of this culture really with which

24:38

we've seen a glimpse of and

24:40

oh my goodness it's a dark.

24:43

A Sadek Spartan this kind of

24:45

to nicer word for it. Ah,

24:48

I'm. Culture. That.

24:51

Is very. Lacking in

24:53

any sing, gaudy or anything to

24:55

sing of and not. It's not

24:57

that kind of culture. it's much

24:59

yes at almost like a hole

25:02

through the yeah culture that relishes

25:04

in austerity. Yeah in and great

25:06

word for it. But. He's not.

25:08

He's he's a Muslim at all. He you

25:10

know he wants to sleep in meds bed.

25:13

He wants to have all

25:16

of the the luxuries of

25:18

a high lord. right?

25:20

And you know he wants to choose

25:22

the the woman. He wants everyone to

25:25

give him his proper respects and and

25:27

a. Of. Beauty to

25:29

him which is not mess

25:31

the iron born way at

25:34

all is Lancaster S actually

25:36

as are describing it, it's

25:38

not. Even it's not even

25:40

starts easy sinking. In.

25:42

The kind of Sam seen us

25:45

and pomp and circumstance usa like.

25:47

I wonder if he would have

25:49

done like if he was fostered.

25:51

In in one of the southern houses.

25:53

Whether he would agree on much better,

25:56

he would have done better of Fi

25:58

Garden, for example. I say. I

26:00

want to talk about his sister or

26:02

a I S. Or

26:04

it so we should call

26:07

outs that's in the books.

26:10

His sister is named ah

26:13

Sir A S H A

26:15

R. Asher. And.

26:17

Then, But you've also got

26:19

this wildly woman who has

26:21

pledged see. Her. Allegiance to

26:24

the On in a previous chapter.

26:27

Named. Asha O S

26:29

H Air. Or. Hit

26:31

at his can using isn't it is

26:33

confusing and I wanted to ask us.

26:35

And as someone who thinks about naming

26:37

characters, This.

26:41

On purpose. Rate a Go. Eat

26:43

what you ain't. You.

26:45

Wouldn't do this. On

26:48

accident but I don't I'm not

26:50

sure me. there's so many characters

26:52

in this with with these stories,

26:54

but they're mostly both. These characters

26:56

are connected the to the on

26:58

in a particular way that's very

27:00

interesting. I hadn't thought about that

27:02

really, but you're absolutely right. Well,

27:04

they're both women who make great

27:06

man. In this very centered

27:09

world, interest their women for the

27:11

most are the world as a

27:13

man and so there's doubles for

27:15

each other and away while he

27:17

notices that one is similar to

27:19

the other, any cause them both

27:21

unnatural. Ah yes, is

27:24

Vivian this after he says ah that

27:26

his the their names even sound alike

27:28

Which is interesting because the this one

27:30

is just as unnatural as the other

27:32

and I didn't really know what to

27:34

make of that, but I think I

27:36

think he just nailed the I think

27:38

he's thinking a natural in the way

27:40

that they. They. Don't

27:43

fit. His his idea

27:45

of what. A. woman

27:47

should look like yes for our

27:49

last like or act like it's

27:51

notable that again during this chapter

27:54

t sinking oh you know things

27:56

are gonna go really great at

27:58

all may or may be Mary

28:00

Sansa who was now old

28:03

enough to have sex with and it's like,

28:05

okay, really? really

28:08

The kind of laments it he's like he is

28:11

like it's too bad She's not here

28:13

because that would be politically advantageous, but

28:15

immediately his mind goes to sex as

28:17

well, right? Right, right.

28:20

It's this sort of default For

28:22

him which is very annoying

28:24

and and keeps me at least

28:26

personally from from Liking

28:29

him it's like snap that stop

28:31

thinking about that. He's believable. I

28:34

mean he's very very early 20s

28:38

You know, he's he's sort of in many ways He's

28:42

got lots and lots of privilege,

28:44

you know for all his yeah

28:46

for all the his sort of

28:48

his limitations He's

28:52

got just enough privilege to get himself

28:54

into trouble exactly Exactly.

28:56

Yes for sure it

28:59

also it's again

29:02

to Think

29:04

about him enough in a more sympathetic

29:06

way. It's kind of all he's got

29:08

is his sexuality That's interesting and and

29:10

enough privilege to get himself into you

29:12

know again thinking about OSHA

29:15

and ASHA OSHA

29:17

and ASHA, you know, I'm not

29:19

I'm not a great I see and I'm not a

29:21

great warrior I'm not

29:23

a lord. I can shoot a bow and arrow, but

29:26

I can't wield a sword. I mean a bow and

29:28

arrow is It

29:30

seems to me in this world Less

29:32

macho in some ways because it's

29:34

not mano-a-mano. You're not driving your

29:37

your you know your

29:39

sword three feet away

29:41

from someone it's a distance weapon

29:43

and Well,

29:46

it was phallic to right absolutely. So

29:48

what do I see on have as

29:50

a man? I Have

29:53

my sexuality. I have my desire. I

29:55

have that and I well

29:57

and if that's exactly what's happening with

30:00

If that is how Martin is developing the character

30:02

then it really does Foreshadow

30:04

what ends up happening to doesn't it

30:06

in the later books right? Yes, it

30:09

sure does It's like ah

30:11

the one thing that kind of

30:13

keeps you keeps you going the

30:15

grounds you not just a human

30:17

But as up as a man, that's

30:19

the thing that's gonna be taken away from you. Yeah

30:22

Yeah, absolutely Okay. All right.

30:24

So yeah, so Asha

30:28

Asha's in his head and I'm speaking of

30:30

his sister He's

30:32

three times he thinks I Wonder

30:36

if she's on her way cuz she

30:38

doesn't come I have too few men

30:40

right and then later on he's like

30:43

I hope she doesn't come right away because If

30:46

he comes if she finds out that right

30:48

I let the Stark boys leave then she

30:51

I'm a fool and

30:53

I would almost rather he I mean

30:55

he's To

30:58

feel foolish in front of a sister

31:00

is like the worst case scenario. Yeah,

31:02

it's so unbearable that again in this

31:04

inner Monologue that's going on

31:06

and again, this is somebody else talking.

31:08

This is no longer sort of narcissist.

31:10

This is someone else If

31:14

she learns that I have lost the

31:16

Starks Dot-dot-dot it

31:19

did not bear thinking about

31:21

it. So it's more than

31:23

embarrassment It's it's it's

31:26

unbearable. He can't something

31:28

can't he can't think about it.

31:31

He's so frightened by

31:33

it Okay, does one

31:35

conversation relate to the other because if

31:38

all he's got is sexuality and

31:40

his sister Amasculates

31:43

him in some way because she's

31:45

more man than he is. Yeah,

31:48

is that part of the psychosis? I

31:50

think that's part of I think that's part of it

31:53

but it seems

31:55

to me there's something else

31:57

going on there in that passage that

32:01

It's not just that she'll be mad,

32:03

it's back to biological dad.

32:07

This whole attempt to

32:10

have captured Winterfell

32:13

will be revealed to be

32:15

completely empty and he can't,

32:17

oh my gosh, that

32:20

means it's a

32:22

failure. I mean he's got

32:24

the castle, he's got the

32:26

bricks and mortar, sorry not

32:28

bricks, but he's got the

32:30

stones, but he doesn't

32:32

have the people and

32:35

the people are what matter. Yeah,

32:38

which is what Ned always had

32:40

effortlessly, you know? Yes. You

32:43

know, it's so much so that if

32:45

Bran or Rickon were

32:47

to hide in a village

32:49

somewhere, he thinks

32:52

that like all the men of the village

32:54

would just fall over each other trying to

32:56

win the honor of defending

32:59

these boys. Something

33:02

that he's absolutely not

33:04

getting from his own men or these

33:06

men of Winterfell. Yeah. I

33:09

think Theon is such

33:11

an uncomfortable person to talk about

33:14

because again, he's got all these psychological

33:16

things going on, but he's also

33:18

such a fascinating and

33:21

troubling in some ways study

33:24

in how hard it is

33:26

to be a leader. And

33:29

being a good leader isn't

33:32

all making the right decisions. It is

33:35

that. And Theon certainly

33:37

doesn't make good right decisions,

33:39

but there's something in terms

33:41

of the character and

33:43

the vibe of the person. And

33:46

we see it around us

33:48

all the time. People

33:50

who want to be leaders and they

33:53

don't have the qualities

33:56

which aren't only being smart.

34:00

But there's something about empathy,

34:03

there's something about a

34:05

magical ability to connect

34:07

with others, and

34:10

an ability to read people and do

34:12

what needs to be done in

34:14

the moment, and also have

34:16

a certain degree of charm.

34:20

Again coming back to Tyrion, Tyrion

34:23

is actually quite a

34:25

good leader and he's

34:27

a tiny man, literally.

34:30

Which is so against what this

34:32

society is about, and yet he's

34:35

able to get things done. He's able

34:38

to win people to his side, in

34:41

part recognizing what

34:43

their capabilities and what their limitations

34:45

are. He recognizes those and doesn't

34:47

take them personally. Tyrion

34:50

takes everything personally and is

34:54

just unable to

34:58

manifest any of the

35:00

qualities that are necessary

35:02

to be a leader. And

35:05

I think most of

35:07

us aren't leaders, most of us

35:09

aren't good leaders, and maybe some of us

35:11

would like to be. And

35:13

so I think he's an uncomfortable

35:15

person to look at

35:18

for the reader, because didn't we

35:20

all at one point want to

35:22

be president of the class, or

35:24

president of a club, or I'm

35:27

thinking about Harry Potter head boy, head

35:29

student. I

35:33

think most of us kind of wanted that

35:35

at one point. And

35:38

Tyrion is such an uncomfortable

35:40

reminder of why

35:43

we can't be, because you just need to have

35:45

all of these qualities and he doesn't have them.

35:47

And it's like, ooh. Yeah,

35:50

in that previous chapter,

35:52

there's this running, you talk about voices

35:55

in their head, so Tyrion

35:58

has learned that the common people I've

36:00

started calling him a demon monkey. Yes. And

36:04

he, so what he's done is he's,

36:07

he's tried to get one of the blacksmiths to

36:09

make him a

36:12

helm that looks like a

36:14

demon. Right. And it's

36:16

almost like he, Tyrion's

36:19

learned early on that if someone

36:21

starts using a name for

36:26

you, if you,

36:29

if you grab it and embrace it and

36:31

claim that name, then you

36:33

have now power over that narrative. Right.

36:37

Right. Theon has never really learned

36:39

that lesson. Correct. And

36:42

so he's always, he's never, he's not

36:44

taking really much of a nuanced view

36:48

to leadership, but he's trying to. Like

36:51

for instance, like two of his men

36:53

were caught trying

36:55

to assault this woman

36:57

in the stables of

36:59

Paula. Right. Right. And

37:01

he decided he would have his men flogged

37:05

for this because he

37:07

wants to show that he can be just.

37:10

And yet the people of

37:12

Winterfell hate him for

37:16

the attempted rape. Yes.

37:18

And he just thinks that this now for

37:21

Theon, he just thinks like,

37:23

oh, I can't win. Like I

37:25

think I did the right thing to act

37:28

justly. And yet

37:31

no one's giving me credit for this.

37:33

Right. You know, think he's got a little, he's

37:36

got a little bit of Stannis syndrome, doesn't

37:38

he? He's, he's rigid in

37:40

a way, again, which is, I think another

37:42

reason why he's an interesting character is he

37:44

refracts back at these

37:46

other characters in interesting, in interesting

37:48

ways. And Stannis is

37:51

that hollow leader also who leads

37:53

because he's been successful and because

37:55

of course he is the, the. leader

38:00

of that of that of that group he's

38:02

also a very good warrior but there's

38:05

something hollow about him right

38:09

yes and there's something hollow about

38:11

Theon too yes but like

38:13

I said he's trying like for here here's

38:15

a little bit of inner monologue he's put

38:18

together the hunting party he thinks that if

38:20

he contract the direwolf so find the boys

38:23

and Lewin rides up to him

38:25

and he says you're

38:27

gonna show mercy to these boys right and

38:31

Theon's like I they never

38:33

loved me but yes they're more valuable to

38:35

me alive than dead and

38:38

then he said well you're gonna show mercy

38:40

to Hodor right because he didn't really do

38:42

anything wrong he said yeah fine if he

38:44

doesn't try to fight me I'll

38:46

show mercy to him too and so

38:49

it's this long dialogue about mercy

38:51

you know he decided he will

38:53

not show mercy to Asha the

38:56

wildling right then here's what he says he

38:59

says mercy thought Theon as

39:01

Lewin dropped back there's a

39:03

bloody trap too much and

39:06

they call you weak too little

39:08

and you're monstrous so

39:10

like you said he's not dumb no

39:13

no he knows it's

39:15

really hard to be a leader you're there's

39:18

that sort of that narrow bridge you're talking

39:20

about he's like if I lean too much

39:22

to the the

39:24

mercy side then they're gonna

39:26

you know criticize me for being

39:28

weak I lean too much

39:30

to the cruelty side they're gonna call

39:33

me a monster and

39:35

so there's a really narrow path

39:38

for being the Prince of

39:40

Winterfell and so he knows

39:42

that and yet he

39:44

just can't help but trip over

39:46

himself yeah that's a wonderful moment

39:49

isn't it and it is a

39:51

very astute observation on

39:53

his part the

39:55

problem is that

39:58

the astute observation that

40:00

Theon makes cannot help him

40:02

in the practical moment in

40:04

the here and now. He's

40:07

right, but it doesn't, it's

40:10

an understanding that doesn't help

40:12

him because

40:14

he's already made this

40:17

these terrible sets of choices that he now has.

40:19

Again, back to the narrow bridge, so

40:22

he's continuing to just have to walk down

40:24

them. And

40:26

that's part of why maybe

40:29

we don't feel so sorry for him

40:31

because we see his intelligence, but

40:34

he's unable to use it in

40:37

any practical way. Yeah. So

40:40

I'm going to read you a little passage

40:43

here from another Prince. So Theon

40:45

is known as the Prince

40:47

of Winterfell here. All right,

40:51

this is from Machiavelli's The Prince. I

40:54

was just thinking about Machiavelli. Yeah,

40:57

go on. All right, so this

40:59

is 17, cruelty and compassion. Continuing

41:02

with our list of qualities, I'm sure

41:04

every leader would wish to be seen

41:07

as compassionate rather than cruel. This is

41:09

very, very echoey of what we just

41:11

read, right? Yes. I'll

41:13

skip ahead a little bit. A ruler

41:15

mustn't worry about being labeled cruel when

41:17

it's a question of keeping his subjects

41:19

loyal, using a little

41:22

exemplary severity. He will

41:24

prove more compassionate than the

41:27

leader whose excessive compassion leads

41:29

to public disorder. So basically

41:32

Machiavelli is saying,

41:34

I'm sure that you want to

41:37

look that way. You absolutely want to

41:39

look as if you're

41:41

more compassionate than cruel. Then

41:43

he says, it is

41:46

always well to see merciful, faithful,

41:48

humane, sincere, religious, and also to

41:50

be so. But you must

41:52

have the mind, so to suppose, that when

41:54

it is needful to be otherwise, you may

41:56

be able to change to the opposite qualities.

41:59

And it must be understood that a prince,

42:01

especially a new prince, cannot

42:04

observe all those things which are

42:06

considered good in men, being

42:09

often obliged in order to maintain

42:11

the state, to act against faith,

42:13

act against charity, act against humanity,

42:16

act against religion, and

42:18

therefore he must have a mind so

42:20

disposed to adapt itself according

42:23

to the wind and the

42:25

variations of fortune. Right.

42:27

And as I said before, not deviate from

42:30

what is good if possible, but

42:32

able to do what is evil

42:34

if constrained. So anyway,

42:36

I thought that's, I

42:39

don't know if it's a conscious homage

42:41

on Martin's part, but I was thinking

42:44

of Machiavelli when I was reading this.

42:46

Yes. Oh, I think wonderful that

42:48

you read some of Machiavelli, because I think

42:50

what comes across Machiavelli

42:53

so well is you have

42:55

to adapt to the wind, you have to be willing

42:57

to, you know, cruel to be kind, kind to be

42:59

cruel. But I think

43:02

what's always there in Machiavelli is

43:04

the goal of

43:07

getting and maintaining power. That's why

43:09

it's called the prince. As

43:13

you were talking and as you were

43:15

reading Machiavelli, and I've thought about this

43:17

recently because I'm making the mistake of

43:19

trying to learn how to play chess,

43:21

which is the hardest game in the

43:23

world. But the whole

43:25

thing with chess is

43:28

all those pieces, all these possibilities,

43:30

some really weird rules, like being

43:32

able to the pawn being able

43:34

to take another pawn on pass

43:36

on this, you know, this

43:38

very particular circumstance. But

43:40

the goal is clear. The

43:43

goal is always checkmate.

43:48

And there are infinite ways to get

43:50

there. Theon listening

43:52

to you talk about read

43:55

from Machiavelli, Theon's problem,

43:57

it seems to me, is

44:00

His goals are never really clear.

44:02

He's like, I'm going to press

44:04

my dad. You know, I'll

44:06

be, he doesn't, does he, he, he's

44:08

not aiming for the iron throne, at

44:10

least not consciously. So

44:13

what's, what, what do you

44:15

want, Theon? And

44:17

his inability to keep

44:19

a goal firmly in

44:21

mind is his biggest problem

44:24

tactically. So he's a chess player, like

44:26

I'm a chess player going, well, I

44:28

don't know. Should I castle

44:30

now? I'm not sure. Do I take this

44:33

pawn again, cruelty? Do I take this pawn

44:35

or do I just go this? I don't

44:37

know what I'm doing. And I think that's,

44:40

he's a bit that person. Yeah.

44:42

He's not, he almost sees himself like I'm

44:45

a knight and someone

44:47

left the rook open. So I'm

44:49

going to take that rook. Right.

44:51

Here I go. Yeah. And

44:54

it's a good trade. And

44:56

yet he's not thinking

44:58

with the bigger picture in mind, right? He's not

45:00

thinking like, does this serve as a king at

45:03

all? Yeah. Even

45:05

worse. What if the possibility is

45:07

that he's the faint, right? What

45:09

if the king absolutely wants to

45:12

sacrifice that peace? Right.

45:14

And, and he just doesn't

45:16

have that idea in mind. Like I

45:19

don't get the sense that his father wants him

45:21

dead, but I do

45:23

get the sense that his father's not impressed with him.

45:25

And he doesn't want, he doesn't

45:28

want Theon to be the

45:31

right arm of victory. Yeah. He

45:33

wants, he wants Asha to be that.

45:35

Yeah. And what does

45:37

have the feeling a bit

45:39

from dad that to

45:41

mix genres, that

45:45

Theon is a little bit of

45:47

a possibly expendable redshirt. You

45:50

sure? To

45:53

swap from chest to Star Trek.

45:56

As one does. That

45:59

there's a. a little bit

46:01

and that it's uncertain as

46:03

to how in you know,

46:05

in expendable unexpendable Theon

46:08

is because he doesn't seem to be

46:10

regarded as terribly valuable by his own

46:12

family. And of course, that's why they

46:14

left him with the Starks in the

46:17

first place. Interesting.

46:19

I was

46:21

going to bring up a little sort of

46:23

literary thing that Martin likes to

46:25

do with the wind like oftentimes

46:28

the wind will

46:30

represent some

46:33

kind of magical presence in

46:35

his world. Like sometimes it'll

46:37

be like, you know, someone's praying to a

46:39

tree. And of course,

46:41

the gods are silent. But if you listen carefully,

46:44

the gods are trying to talk to you

46:46

through the wind. So oftentimes Arya or Bran

46:49

or someone else

46:51

will experience kind

46:53

of a divine potency with wind. Right.

46:56

But in this chapter, the wind

46:58

is absence, right? So it's like,

47:00

yes, there's a few times when

47:02

Theon is like, I don't hear

47:05

anything. The only thing I hear is the wind and

47:08

it's almost like complete

47:10

lack of help coming with

47:12

the wind. Or if

47:14

he's in the court with the subjects and

47:16

he's like, you know, who's going

47:18

to tell me where these boys went? He

47:21

hears nothing but the wind. And so in other words,

47:23

in this chapter, the wind

47:25

is almost reversed instead of divine potency,

47:28

divine absence. Yeah. Well, the wind is

47:30

always against him. Literally.

47:32

Yeah. And great

47:35

that you pointed that out, Anthony,

47:37

that it's not something that I'd

47:40

noticed. But yeah, you're absolutely right.

47:42

The wind, the wind is very

47:44

significant, but it never blows in

47:46

Theon Greyjoy's favor. I

47:48

wanted to also point out, and

47:51

I don't think I ever caught

47:53

this before, but

47:56

I think I see the sort

47:58

of the grand, and plan to

48:01

escape Winterfell in a new way

48:03

after reading this chapter. Oh

48:05

cool. I'm sure a lot of

48:07

other fans have already caught on and I'm

48:09

a little bit late to the party but that's

48:11

fine. The wolves had to come out of the

48:13

string somewhere. No doubt

48:16

they did. Upstream or down. We keep on.

48:18

We'll find the place. But which is the

48:20

way? I

48:22

never knew a wolf to run

48:24

upstream for miles, said Reek. A

48:26

man might if he knew he was being hunted. He

48:29

might. But a wolf? Yet

48:32

Theon wondered. The beasts

48:34

were not as other wolves. I

48:36

should have skinned those cursed things. So you

48:38

hear his inner voice again, right? Yes. Yes.

48:42

I should have done something differently. Right. That

48:44

kind of paternal voice saying I should

48:46

have done it differently. That

48:48

inner critic that we all

48:51

fear and would like to silence forever.

48:53

That inner critic is, I should have done this. I should

48:56

have done that. Right. That

48:58

inner critic is completely unhelpful in

49:00

this situation. So

49:03

we know as readers that these wolves

49:05

are absolutely not like other wolves. And

49:07

the thing that makes them most

49:09

different is that

49:11

a human mind, Bran, can

49:13

work into these things and

49:16

have a logical sense of direction

49:18

and a logical sense

49:20

of strategy that a regular wolf

49:23

wouldn't have. So a regular wolf

49:25

wouldn't be so hard to track because it

49:28

would go into the stream and go across

49:30

the other side. Yes. But

49:33

because this wolf, like

49:35

Greek says, look, the only way

49:38

that this wolf would have eluded us if

49:40

it went into this brook and

49:43

walked in that brook up

49:45

several miles upstream, but I've

49:47

never known a wolf to do that. And

49:50

so that makes me think, oh, that's how they did

49:52

it. They

49:55

went down to the crypts to hide. Bran

49:58

worked into summer. And

50:01

this would be the first kind of

50:03

sort of strategic thing he does with

50:05

his working abilities Yeah,

50:07

he runs out runs up

50:09

the brook and then returns

50:12

in such a way that Is

50:15

undetectable? Right and of

50:17

course, I think you know I think

50:19

sort of that inner voice that theon

50:21

uses like these were not like other

50:23

wolves That is our hint

50:25

that that's what's happening, but I just didn't

50:27

pick up on it before Yeah,

50:30

I didn't either. No, that's great. That makes

50:32

a lot of sense and again,

50:34

I Always

50:36

am wowed by Martin's

50:39

ability to use Writing

50:42

to fulfill a couple of

50:44

purposes. He's Telling

50:46

us something about theon and theon's

50:49

again inner critic talking and he's

50:51

also seeding some information About

50:53

what may have happened to us

50:55

the other reader. That's really slick

50:58

writing Well a

51:00

lot of another dimension to this he's

51:02

talking to a man named reek. Yeah

51:06

Who's almost functioning as a little

51:08

devil on his left shoulder? Yes

51:11

Absolutely And it's almost

51:13

like he's talking to What

51:16

he will become in the future. Yes, but someone

51:19

is almost like on

51:22

the page here we have You're

51:25

looking at this person who represents

51:27

your future worst self and you're

51:29

taking advice from that person. Yes,

51:31

right Yes, so there's a lot

51:33

of people offering him advice in

51:36

this chapter, right? Luland's offering him

51:38

advice and You

51:41

know the Walder boy says, you know

51:43

is telling him about Crannogman and how

51:45

they're hard to find So he's giving

51:47

advice and the kennel master is giving

51:49

him advice and then but the

51:51

person he ends up Listening to

51:53

and taking the advice from

51:56

is someone named reek. Yes is

51:58

the worst person the He picks

52:01

the worst person to listen to. Yeah.

52:04

Yeah. Because that guy, that guy

52:07

had this plan all along. What he did

52:09

was right before they

52:11

left for the hunt, he

52:13

went and grabbed brand's

52:16

clothing and brand's, you

52:18

know, unique signet

52:20

pen that he likes

52:22

to wear. Right. And he's

52:24

been carrying it around all day long

52:26

from morning to dusk, just

52:29

waiting for this moment to ingratiate

52:31

himself to Theon and he

52:33

plans it in his head, we can

52:35

go solve this problem at the mill.

52:39

And of course this is off page, but

52:41

the idea here is we're going

52:43

to dress up these two millers

52:45

boys as,

52:48

as, as the Lords, we're going to burn

52:50

them. And this is going to solve

52:53

your problem for you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

52:56

We just are worst, worst advice

52:58

ever. Right. Yeah. And talk about

53:00

cruelty. It just takes

53:02

everything we've, we've been talking about with

53:05

Machiavelli and just kind of blows it

53:07

up. It's the worst thing you could

53:09

do. Tactically it's

53:12

stupid, but morally

53:15

awful, completely unacceptable.

53:18

And it certainly is it around

53:20

this point that whatever sympathy you

53:23

might have had for Theon disappears

53:26

because he does something so awful,

53:30

all to save his face. Right.

53:34

And I do think that this has, is

53:36

going to have consequences later. I think that

53:38

there's something about just desserts

53:40

in Martin's world. Yeah. You

53:42

know, he sort of gets credit.

53:44

Martin tends to get credited for

53:47

sort of his real politic, uh,

53:50

sensibilities, but in his world, if

53:53

you push a kid out the window, you're going to get your

53:56

hand chopped off later in the story. Right.

53:58

Um, right. So. Here

54:00

we have Theon who makes this

54:02

horrible depraved

54:05

moral choice. And

54:09

of course, because of the narrative

54:11

justice in Martin's world, he's going

54:13

to end up

54:17

becoming the thing that he's listening to,

54:19

right? There's something about, I'm

54:21

going to take the advice of this

54:23

man named Reek foreshadowing

54:27

the reality that I will end up

54:29

becoming this depraved man. Great

54:33

writing. For all of

54:35

the reasons to hate Theon, he's just,

54:37

you can't look away. Right,

54:39

because he's so human. And again, I want

54:41

to come back to that is he

54:44

is, and again, I think that's why

54:46

he's hard to talk about, he's

54:48

actually relatable in

54:52

a really creepy way. And we all, many of

54:54

us, you know, I admit it, I wanted to

54:56

be president of the class. Many

54:58

of us secretly, I have these

55:00

delusions of grandeur or not so

55:03

secretly. And we

55:05

all have a sexual side. Right.

55:09

And how do you distinguish power from sexuality?

55:11

I mean, that is sort of one of

55:13

the main – And

55:15

we all want – sorry,

55:18

go on. I was just going to say

55:20

that is the main thing

55:22

that a lot of people

55:24

have to navigate in their 20s, right? You

55:28

know, you've got this power, and the

55:30

people that you're attracted to might be

55:32

attracted to the power. How

55:34

do you decide to live with it? How

55:37

do you decide to wield that kind of thing? Yeah,

55:41

and we all want to be liked. We

55:44

all want to be liked and respected. And

55:46

we also say the heck with it, I don't care. I don't

55:49

care what people think. Both of those

55:51

things are – Others to approve of

55:53

us. We want our older sister to

55:55

not tease us. No, that's all we

55:58

can. Right. Exactly. We want

56:00

to please dad. We want dad to think

56:02

we're not a loser, which

56:04

he does. Dad totally thinks

56:06

I'm a loser and I want to

56:08

change that. And yeah, my

56:10

sister is

56:13

his favorite now and she's giving me a

56:15

rough time. I mean, they're just, they're all,

56:17

he's very primal. Again,

56:20

developmental arrested sort of things going on

56:22

in the end. All

56:25

in one big horrible bundle,

56:27

but we, I think many

56:29

readers recognize aspects of themselves,

56:32

maybe all of their

56:34

ethic in him. So he

56:37

becomes, he becomes, I think

56:39

a really very important character to

56:41

talk about, but an uncomfortable

56:43

one. Notable

56:47

introductions in this chapter. A

56:50

lot of, a lot of

56:52

new characters, um, Agar and

56:54

Rednose and Gelmar, Barth

56:56

and Murch and Garris.

57:00

Um, and then we get introduced

57:03

and we say goodbye to Drennan

57:05

and Squint, who were the guards

57:07

that, uh, got kill at the

57:10

wall, right? Notable

57:14

differences from

57:16

the show. Well, there is no

57:19

reek at this point in the show. Right. Um,

57:23

so you don't have that part of it,

57:25

but I thought it was interesting that the

57:28

narrative that Theon constructs about the

57:31

death of Drennan and Squint, he

57:33

thinks, well, some woman offered

57:36

her body to him, caught

57:39

him unaware. And that's why his pants

57:41

are down. And

57:43

then she killed him. She sliced, sliced

57:45

open his neck. And

57:48

I thought it was interesting that I think that

57:50

that inspired, because that would have been Asha. I

57:52

think that inspired

57:55

how Asha tries to

57:58

dispatch a Ramsey label. in the

58:00

show. Oh that's interesting.

58:03

You know who I am? A

58:07

Lord. Yes. A

58:10

Lord. You've

58:13

seen my banners. The

58:16

flayed man. Does

58:18

that worry you at all? You'll

58:22

eat the master. And

58:29

I think she grabs a

58:31

knife. She acts like she's

58:33

going to gratify him, but

58:36

he sees it coming. Yes. So I

58:39

think that they took a little bit

58:41

of this chapter and they peppered it

58:43

into the way that

58:46

Asha ends up dying in

58:48

the show. Yeah, that's interesting. That

58:50

could be. One

58:52

last little thing. There's

58:54

this character named Murch. M-U-R-C-H.

58:58

Murch. Who

59:01

shows up in this chapter and he's

59:04

known to be one of the better

59:06

huntsmen of Winterfell. Martin

59:08

introduced a character named Murch

59:10

earlier who was one of

59:12

Jorin's recruits that

59:15

was on his way up to the wall.

59:17

Interesting. And we don't know what happened to

59:19

him. So to me it's

59:21

an open question like, is this the

59:23

same Murch? I don't think it's meant to be the

59:25

same Murch, but we don't know,

59:27

we know he was headed up north and we

59:29

don't know what ended up happening to him. Is

59:32

it possible that he

59:35

kind of ingratiated himself

59:38

in the Winterfell crew and

59:40

now he is part of

59:42

Theon's cohort? Right. I don't

59:45

have a good... I mean the other option

59:47

is there's a lot of names in this

59:49

story and Martin

59:51

is going to reuse a few

59:54

of them, right? Yeah, but maybe

59:56

given again the winds of war

59:58

and how things change... Back

1:00:00

to Machiavelli, you've got to be willing

1:00:02

to move with the change, with the

1:00:04

flow. Maybe that is

1:00:06

the original merch, who's just popped

1:00:08

up again because he's doing

1:00:11

what he has to do. He's a survivor.

1:00:13

Yeah, he's figured out a way to survive, yes. Would

1:00:16

you just one more time remind

1:00:18

us of the title of your

1:00:20

newest book? Absolutely. The

1:00:23

title of my new novel is

1:00:25

called Journey to Mer-Vey-Yur City, and

1:00:28

it's a comical, magical mystery tour

1:00:30

on a train. Who doesn't love

1:00:32

a mystery on a train? Yeah,

1:00:35

exactly. That's right. Thank you. Matt,

1:00:37

thank you. Matt, thank

1:00:41

you.