0:00

We play an ugly game. I

0:07

want winners. I

0:10

want people that want to win. When

0:12

you play the Game of Thrones, you win. When

0:15

you die. There

0:17

is no middle ground. You

0:20

play to win the game. Hello?

0:28

You play to win the game. Come

0:31

after me. I'm a man.

0:57

You play to win. We

1:27

want our villains to be masterminds. Does

1:57

he just completely...

2:00

improvising. Yeah, that's a good question.

2:02

Is he improvising as he goes?

2:06

Or does he have this whole scheme in

2:09

mind? I mean there's this

2:11

one scene where

2:14

he pulls her

2:16

hat off to reveal her

2:18

hair that will make her

2:21

recognizable among the common folk. And

2:24

I don't know why he does that unless it is

2:26

to expose her, like

2:30

he's gotten her vulnerable and now

2:32

he's going to play the perception

2:34

game and weaken her with the

2:36

perception game. And maybe that was

2:38

his whole plan all along. Or

2:42

was it just sort of like, I

2:45

think I'll do this now. And he pulls off her

2:47

and he doesn't think about the contours. Right.

2:50

Or it's like he's

2:53

got maybe like a destructive side,

2:56

like this would be unpredictable

2:58

and it would completely change

3:02

the dynamic of what we're doing. But

3:06

without thought as to now what. As

3:09

opposed to just like it's just

3:11

sort of bringing a touch of chaos into

3:13

everything he does. Right. I

3:16

think that the first time I watched this I

3:18

thought, oh he's a genius. This

3:21

is gonna totally expose her and this

3:23

is going to weaken the king and

3:25

now she's not gonna be able to

3:27

be queen because now people don't like

3:29

her even more and he

3:31

knows exactly what he's doing. And the second

3:33

time I watched it I thought, he's got

3:35

no clue what's gonna happen next. Right.

3:38

So keep my eyes on him.

3:40

I'm continue to be fascinated

3:42

with him. I

3:45

don't know how to read

3:47

him yet. No, yeah. I'm the

3:49

same way and and I

3:51

think there's just so much of that that happens in this

3:56

episode where it

3:58

just seems It

4:01

just seems kind of chaotic and

4:03

I don't know... He's

4:06

lying, oh but he's lying because

4:08

he's got a bigger plan. Or

4:10

is he lying and not wise

4:12

enough to realize that maybe his

4:14

lie has been undercut elsewhere? He's

4:18

not really in control. But

4:20

also if his end goal... It feels

4:23

almost like this is just a brotherly

4:25

spat that has just

4:28

escalated over the years because their

4:30

station has changed. So

4:33

much of this really does feel like it's

4:37

just these guys. This

4:40

was sort of the... This

4:44

is a very dysfunctional family for a number

4:46

of reasons and we got

4:49

to see it all on display this episode. I

4:52

was really impressed with this

4:54

episode. But we'll

4:57

get to that. Okay,

5:00

I've identified five storylines

5:02

and Renera

5:05

is attached to

5:07

almost all of these. The first

5:10

storyline I call The Princess and The

5:12

Penis. Ooh, yeah.

5:15

Renera impatiently listens to potential

5:17

suitors and leaves when the

5:20

gathering turns violent. On

5:22

her way back to King's Landing, her ship has

5:24

a fender bender with a dragon. By

5:28

the way, fantastic. A

5:30

ship and a dragon having a fender bender. This

5:33

is sort of... This is a perfect

5:35

scene. Well for you,

5:37

you got ship and dragon. Oh

5:39

my gosh, yes. It was like the

5:41

way that Renera looks at the street

5:44

of silk. That was

5:46

sort of me watching this ship get buzzed by the

5:48

dragon. You

5:51

would have been susceptible to almost anything at this

5:53

point. Oh yeah, oh yeah. Take off all the

5:55

hats you want. I'm

5:57

gonna let loose. Having

6:01

spurned every suitor, she worries that her

6:03

father will be angry. She

6:05

seeks out Damon and they discuss

6:08

marriage, childbirth, life, and death. Renera

6:11

claims that she would prefer solitude to

6:13

marriage. That night she's

6:15

invited out to a fleshy carnival

6:18

with Damon. She sneaks out,

6:20

sees a comedy, and a variety of tattoos.

6:23

She tells her...he tells her that sex

6:25

can be pleasurable even for the woman

6:27

and kisses her. After

6:29

another episode of ED, he ditches

6:31

her. She returns to

6:33

the keep and seduces Sir Christian.

6:37

So, we've talked a little bit about Damon. I

6:40

think that probably we need to talk a little bit about

6:43

sort of his motives here. I

6:45

think one way you could read this is

6:47

that he

6:49

just wants to show her a good time.

6:51

I think he sees himself in her and

6:55

he might be a little bit hot for her. I

6:59

don't know if he means to politically

7:01

undermine her at first. I mean, I

7:03

guess that's possible. It's possible that that

7:05

was his plan all along. I'm

7:08

going to do damage to my

7:10

brother and his daughter. That's the

7:12

thing. I mean, this is what I think is probably

7:16

one of the most fascinating parts of

7:19

this. And I could also see this being

7:21

something that might frustrate some other viewers. I

7:24

think that what they've done

7:27

here...they've complicated things by leaving so

7:29

much out. Because

7:32

we don't know exactly what Damon...we

7:34

have an idea what Damon's motivations are, but we

7:36

don't also know if he's just petulant.

7:38

Like, going back to what you were saying before,

7:41

is this a big plan? So, yeah,

7:44

is he attracted to Reneira?

7:46

Or is he being politically

7:49

motivated knowing that she is

7:52

attracted to him? And so therefore

7:54

he has the upper hand and

7:56

he knows he can complicate her...you

7:59

know. her

8:01

stake to the throne by

8:03

complicating their relationship. Or

8:05

is he truly just sort of like, no,

8:07

I really like Renara, I see a lot

8:09

of myself in her, and

8:12

then they have a good time, but then his

8:14

instincts to undermine kick in and he takes the

8:16

hat off. And then there's the question of, okay,

8:19

is he seducing her or is

8:21

he being seduced? Was it ED?

8:24

Was it a change

8:26

of heart? Is it a grand

8:28

plan where he brings her to a certain

8:30

point? And then, so all of those, because

8:32

we don't know what those motivations are, it's

8:34

very, very hard to, do

8:38

we just feel like we're grasping at the wind here

8:40

in some cases? And I can see that in some

8:43

ways I find it fascinating. And other times I'm just

8:45

like, and

8:47

nothing I get taken out, but there are moments

8:49

where I'm like, well, I don't

8:51

know what I'm watching. I don't know. And

8:55

in a way that's fun. In a

8:57

way I think that is a good storytelling

9:00

because I'm having a hard time charting the

9:02

next move, which means that I'm sort of

9:04

set up to be surprised no matter what.

9:07

Yeah, in Game of Thrones, it was

9:09

sort of fun to watch Littlefinger sow

9:11

seeds of chaos, right? Cause you kind

9:13

of knew his motives. It

9:15

was like, you know what I think

9:18

I'm gonna do? I think I'm gonna sow

9:20

as many seeds of chaos in the realm

9:22

as possible. See

9:24

the whole thing destabilized. See the thing

9:26

crumble. And then I will advance, right?

9:30

That was sort of his motives. And then of

9:32

course, he had this little thing like, does he love

9:34

Kat? Does he not love Kat? What's

9:37

he do with Sansa? You kind

9:39

of understood his motivations to

9:42

a certain extent. And so you kind of have

9:44

fun to see what he's trying to do to

9:47

achieve his ends. Well,

9:49

in Littlefinger, the

9:52

purpose he served in the fiction

9:54

also served for the

9:56

audience, right? It's like he,

9:58

they did a wonderful thing. with this character

10:00

where they created somebody who is constantly

10:03

one step ahead and kind of tricking everybody and

10:05

nobody understands this too many motivations. And as the

10:07

audience, we were the same way. Cause

10:09

we're like, well, I don't know if he, is

10:12

he motivated by love or political gain or is

10:14

it both? Is he one of these guys that

10:16

is, is he like the

10:18

Golden State Warriors? Is he developing the young talent

10:20

and seeking to win a championship this year? Can

10:22

he pull both off? Yeah. Yeah. Or

10:24

is one of it just a lie? Is it just a

10:26

lie? And that's what you kind

10:29

of present to the world, but really the other thing is

10:31

what you want. I think that

10:33

like at one point in this episode,

10:35

Visera says, Damon and

10:37

Renara both have the blood of the

10:39

dragon. And

10:41

that makes them chaotic and

10:43

restless. So it's almost

10:46

like we enjoyed watching Littlefinger

10:48

because he was sowing seeds

10:50

of chaos. Damon Targaryen is

10:52

chaos. He's like a chaos

10:54

tornado wherever he goes. And

10:57

sometimes it's fun to be the chaos tornado.

11:00

And sometimes it's like, well, I

11:02

guess I'm here now. You know, what

11:05

am I gonna do now that I'm here? I didn't

11:07

think ahead. I don't know.

11:09

He could be a genius though. It's

11:11

just an odd character. I

11:14

continue to be

11:16

most fascinated with

11:18

where his chaos tornado will land

11:21

next. Yeah. And it's almost

11:23

like that is a superpower, right? Like impetuous

11:27

yet able to then quickly adapt

11:30

to the new scenario he just

11:32

created. Sure. Right.

11:36

Yeah. That's a good way to say it.

11:39

I love this first scene with

11:42

Lord Bracken and it's

11:44

a little kid who kind of

11:46

comes to be her suitor.

11:48

I watched that scene like four or

11:51

five times. And I don't know why it

11:53

was so exciting to me. I

12:01

think it could have to do with this this

12:03

director that they brought on her name is Claire

12:06

Kilner and She she

12:08

was talking in the beside behind the scenes

12:10

part of it She was saying that I

12:12

really wanted to show everything from

12:14

a woman's perspective And

12:17

she was specifically talking about the sex scenes

12:20

like how would Renara? Be

12:23

experiencing the sexy and then to of course Allison

12:25

you get to see her face during the sex

12:27

scene With the

12:29

king, but I think that

12:32

this first scene This fight

12:34

scene is very much shot

12:36

with that in mind as well. Like what

12:38

would the woman in the room? witness

12:41

of this fight Because

12:44

what happens is you kind of see

12:46

Renara really bored and then kind of

12:48

shocked and then kind of

12:50

bored again And a little bit amused

12:52

and she decides I'm hungry. I'm leaving

12:54

So all these suitors are kind of

12:56

like a set afterthought to her because

12:58

she doesn't really want to marry any

13:00

of them Right, right. So this is

13:02

all about her experience of the moment

13:05

And then when you see her walk away The

13:07

fighting still goes on and

13:10

I think that another direction would be like put

13:12

the camera where the action is We want to

13:14

see this fight unfold But

13:17

what Kilner does is she says no

13:19

keep the keep the camera on her

13:21

face And she'll turn around and see some

13:24

of the violence But

13:26

but what's important is her experience

13:28

of it. I Thought

13:30

it was a masterfully shot scene and I was

13:33

shocked I was like, I can't believe the little

13:35

guy beat the big guy, you know It's sort

13:37

of like right this Game of Thrones moment where

13:39

it's like what world am I watching? This

13:42

is this is total chaos and

13:45

You know you think about it a little bit

13:47

better you think oh, well the you know, the

13:49

little guy's got this sword That's three feet long

13:51

and the other one's got a dagger. So Yeah,

13:55

but that's and and you know more

13:58

to your point too. It's like that's not That's not the issue

14:00

here. Battles happen. People

14:03

are, like there's so much vying

14:05

for position. And

14:07

at this moment, she

14:09

has the position. Even

14:12

though she's quote, you know, gonna be married

14:14

off, and so it feels like she has

14:16

no agency, she snatches agency back. She

14:19

sits and she kinda makes them go through the motions.

14:22

Right, she's gonna hold on to her agency as

14:25

far as long as she possibly can. Becomes

14:28

a bit of a role reversal in many

14:30

ways, right? Here's

14:34

all these men that are lining up to prove their

14:36

worth. And

14:39

she sort of dismisses, she's interested, she plays

14:42

with them, and then she's like, I'm out,

14:44

I'm getting snacks. And

14:46

then, but they keep on back.

14:48

They're so focused on everything else.

14:51

And then also there's just the

14:53

nature of a man,

14:55

even at a young age, they'll

14:58

just break to the death. I mean, it's

15:00

just, it's sort of this violence that

15:02

they're sort of prone to.

15:05

And then she, and like

15:07

I said, the focus on her, it's

15:10

actually where the power is, right? The camera goes

15:12

to where the power is. And that's, and

15:15

it is ironic because it is something that

15:17

she doesn't wanna have to do because she

15:19

feels like it's an obligation, but

15:21

she flips it, right? And I think that's one

15:23

of the things that's different about her than Damon

15:28

is that he's the other, right?

15:30

I mean, he's gonna be the

15:32

one to fight. He's gonna, all

15:34

right, I'm gonna go and fight the

15:36

crab feeder. I'm gonna do all this other

15:39

stuff. But there doesn't seem to be, like

15:42

there's calculation in the moment, but not

15:45

long-term where she, even

15:47

despite her age, feels like she has a

15:49

little bit more of an idea of

15:52

what the bigger picture is and what

15:54

maybe some consequences are. And I think

15:57

that there's this sense with Damon that.

16:00

He knows that life is fleeting. He

16:03

knows that chaos is just part of it.

16:05

And at one

16:07

point he says to her, he says, yeah,

16:10

it's a tragic world, but if you

16:12

live it in fear, you're gonna miss

16:14

the best parts of it. And

16:17

he sort of resolved to live

16:20

life hot and fast, and if

16:22

it results in the crab feeder

16:25

putting his hammer through my skull,

16:27

then that's how I go out.

16:29

And she's just unwilling, because

16:31

there's no glory in the birthing

16:33

bed, she's like,

16:36

no, I'm not going out like

16:38

my mom went out. I'm

16:40

not gonna live like that. But she

16:42

does want some of that hot and

16:45

fast life that her uncle has. So

16:48

it really sort of is her

16:50

chafing over the gender assignment of the- Right, and

16:52

think of it from her perspective, too. She's like,

16:54

my job is to create someone that can go

16:56

and live the life I wanna live. Yeah,

16:59

that's right. That's exactly

17:02

right. Yeah, it's a great,

17:04

I think it's a great view of,

17:06

and I love how she's juxtaposed with

17:08

Alison this episode, but we'll get there.

17:14

For some reason I'm just totally

17:16

fascinated by this fight between the

17:18

Blackwood and the Brackens, where

17:23

in this world, rivalry is as old as, as

17:28

sin, it's like, these

17:30

guys have had each other forever. But what

17:32

got me, I think, this

17:35

kid is called a craven, and

17:39

that's it, it's on, right? It's

17:42

going down. This is a world where

17:44

if you say the magic word, there's

17:46

going to be blood. It's

17:49

fascinating to me in that there's so many

17:51

things about this show that it's like, oh,

17:53

it's just like the modern world. And

17:56

then you get reminded like, no, this is unlike

17:59

anything. you've experienced. This

18:02

kid who looks what, 12 years old? I

18:04

don't know. He has not gone

18:06

through puberty yet. He gets called

18:09

a craven and now it's like, now I have

18:11

to go to battle with this grown man. And

18:17

what is the world where you say the right

18:19

word and now you're going to see a grown

18:21

man fight a 12 year old

18:23

boy to death with big knives? It's

18:27

goofy. It's a

18:29

goofy scene. It's a

18:31

very Game of Thrones scene. I really liked it.

18:34

It's like when Marty McFly gets called a chicken.

18:36

Uh oh, it's on. Oh

18:41

my gosh. Yeah, I love

18:43

the scene. And then it was a little surprising. It's like, oh,

18:45

all right. That didn't end the way

18:47

I thought it was going to end. And we're

18:49

off to the next thing. We're off seeing a

18:51

dragon have a fender bender with a

18:53

boat. It's a great

18:56

beginning of an episode. Yeah. And so

18:59

let's go back to Damon and

19:01

Renner. Now you, your synopsis

19:04

suggested that it was an ED related,

19:06

a boarded

19:09

mission. Yeah, that's how I read

19:11

it because I think that that's

19:13

how I read it the first

19:15

time because I was

19:17

so fascinated by how his coupling

19:21

ended with Masaria in

19:23

episode one. And

19:25

I thought, okay, this is a, this is interesting.

19:27

This guy has a

19:30

problem and

19:32

it's an interesting problem for this guy to

19:34

have. I'm going to see how this plays

19:36

out. And so when we

19:38

get to the scene of, you know, they're in

19:40

the, the, the bowels of the pleasure den and

19:43

he's totally into it. And then all

19:45

of a sudden he can't perform. That

19:47

is how I read it. And

19:50

well, let me, let me hear from you first before

19:52

I go, go where I'm going to go. Well,

19:55

seeing that, and that's, that's, I think how I

19:57

read it later, like looking back on it. because

20:00

my initial thought was, again, I think I was giving

20:02

him credit for... Not

20:05

having sex with his niece? Well... Because

20:11

you'd like to give someone the benefit of the

20:13

doubt when it comes to that. Right,

20:16

yeah. I mean, like, all right, I've

20:19

given you... This is a C-minus for

20:21

morality. No, I... What

20:23

did you say about this show that that

20:25

was not even on your mind? That you

20:27

were gonna give him credit for... What was

20:29

gonna give him credit for being devious? That

20:32

maybe he was

20:35

intentionally bringing her to this

20:38

point where now he's... It was a

20:40

power move, right? It

20:42

was, bring you to a

20:45

point of seduction and then I'm

20:47

going to end it abruptly, which

20:49

that would be the... Similar

20:51

to sort of the parallel that you

20:54

would have with Renéra earlier, where she's

20:56

sort of toying with the men and

20:58

then moves on, right? Like, that's

21:00

how I initially read it, was like,

21:02

okay, so this is his version of

21:04

this story where he's now taking

21:07

a much more powerful position.

21:10

But then to read it later, especially

21:12

as we just talked about how he

21:15

seems to adapt to his own chaos,

21:18

that's actually a really interesting element

21:20

to his character because here's

21:23

another example where he may have

21:25

accidentally made a power move. Sure.

21:29

Sure. Because his body betrays

21:31

him. Now he has

21:33

a new set of... Now

21:36

there's a new path I'm gonna go on. That's

21:38

fantastic. Yeah. Is

21:41

that he's this... Again,

21:43

go back to the idea of Damon the

21:45

accidental mastermind. Right, right, right,

21:47

right. So I will say this, and I

21:50

don't like to appeal to

21:52

this kind of stuff, but in

21:54

the after the... Or inside the

21:57

episode conversation afterwards. I

22:00

think it's Ryan Condal. One of

22:02

the people interviewed said, yeah, then he has ED

22:04

and he can't complete the act. And he actually

22:06

says, because he feels like

22:09

in order for him to enjoy

22:12

the experience, he has to be in

22:14

total control. And she kind

22:16

of like starts taking

22:19

control sexually and he doesn't know what

22:22

to do with that. So

22:24

the writer might have an intent

22:26

for the character, but by

22:29

the time it gets to the director,

22:32

the director is kind of in control.

22:35

Maybe a Kilner decided to do something

22:37

different with the scene, or maybe Matt

22:40

Smith decided he was going

22:42

to bring something else to the performance.

22:45

And then, of course, I'm involved too as

22:47

a watcher. And so if

22:49

it's open to interpretation, at that

22:52

point, the

22:54

experience is mine as a viewer to

22:56

decide or not decide based

22:59

on the conversations that I'm having. So

23:01

I don't necessarily just want to

23:04

pull out the authorial intent card.

23:06

I do think it is one

23:09

voice in the conversation that's worth listening to.

23:12

Yeah. And that's one thing that I think

23:14

is important too. I mean, in my myriad

23:18

literature classes, you start getting

23:21

into various interpretations.

23:25

One of the things that you're taught early

23:27

on is that authorial intent is

23:30

like maybe 10% of the battle. I

23:34

don't necessarily like to do one, because one of the

23:36

things that I enjoy about shows like

23:38

this is wrestling with some of

23:41

the ambiguities and either being surprised later

23:43

or just, that to me, it's all

23:45

part. It's like a really well, it's

23:47

like a good meal that also is

23:49

presented well on the plate. Taste

23:52

is part of it, but the experience is

23:54

really what you're going for. And

23:56

so when someone says, this is what happened

23:58

and this is what I intend. ended and like into

24:01

your point it's like yeah but it's getting

24:03

translated now through different

24:07

lenses, right? And like I said there's a director,

24:09

there's an actor, there's editors, there's once you add

24:11

music, once you all the different things that you

24:14

go through and then you say okay

24:16

now me watching it now

24:18

the context of my viewing experience, things

24:21

that I'm grabbing onto or paying

24:23

attention to maybe a little closer things I'm

24:25

reading a little closer things maybe I'm not

24:27

catching that's all part of it and that's

24:29

yeah I really like the culinary metaphor here

24:32

I think it's great I think it's sort

24:34

of like so let's say

24:36

you've got a chef that's really into

24:39

the culinary arts so

24:41

the intention of the chef was to

24:43

do something and maybe the chef knows

24:45

a lot more about the meal than

24:48

the person who ate it but the

24:50

chef didn't experience the

24:53

meal like the person who ate the

24:55

meal right and I think that it's

24:57

a great metaphor for sort of the

25:00

relationship between the creator and the consumer

25:02

yeah and I

25:04

think with this you know and that and it's fine

25:06

when an office says this is what was

25:08

supposed to happen it's like yeah and I believe

25:10

it like yeah I believe that ED paid it

25:13

played a role but I think that the point you

25:15

know that as we start going further it's like well

25:17

why and how like was it just as simple as

25:19

oops I got to this point and I couldn't feel

25:21

the deal or is it no

25:23

I really thought I was gonna seal the deal and now

25:26

I'm surprised by it so now I have a different reaction

25:28

to it so it's that's it sets things going

25:30

right I mean there's there's a lot of ways that

25:32

that and you know like there's

25:34

just a lot that could go on there right like you

25:37

said if it was a power dynamic and that caused

25:39

him to shut down that's one thing if

25:41

it's just oh here we go again well

25:44

okay and I think I mean just to put

25:46

all my cards on the table I read it

25:48

as ED for the very before I heard the

25:51

interview and so when I heard the the author

25:53

say yeah that was what we were going for

25:56

I felt this tiny bit of indication like yeah

25:58

I read it right you know It's

26:00

my view. My view is the right view, which

26:03

is totally unfair. But I will

26:05

say this. Later on

26:08

Damon is being questioned.

26:12

And, you know, Viserys

26:14

basically says, you defiled my

26:16

daughter. And what

26:18

does he say? He doesn't say, no, man, I couldn't

26:20

perform. He says, what does it

26:22

matter? You know, you know, look,

26:24

look at what we did when we were that age. And

26:27

it's almost like, is it

26:29

more embarrassing to say that he couldn't

26:31

perform? I mean, I'm guessing that in

26:34

the pre-modern world, this is sort of

26:36

tantamount to a feminizing yourself. Right.

26:39

Maybe he would prefer to be, you

26:42

know, to be thought of sort of

26:44

as the bad boy tornado who you

26:46

can't trust than the

26:48

guy who can't perform in the bedroom. Well,

26:51

and it does suggest, again,

26:53

I think I think the brotherly dynamic

26:55

is such an interesting one is that they

26:58

they, you know,

27:00

I don't know if what your experience is with

27:02

your siblings, but I've seen this with

27:05

my my wife's siblings is when they

27:07

all get together, regardless of how much

27:10

older they've gotten and life experience has

27:12

changed. Every time they

27:14

get together, they sort of

27:16

involve back into their roles. Yeah,

27:19

their roles, everybody, you know,

27:22

the eldest is is the eldest and

27:24

has a certain amount of, you know,

27:27

expectations on what how they're treated and the

27:29

youngest is on and on it goes, right.

27:31

And it just it's not I mean,

27:34

that's I've seen that often with

27:36

with almost any siblings. So here you have these,

27:38

you know, these two siblings that are arguably, you

27:40

know, two of the most powerful men

27:43

in the realm. And, and

27:45

when they get together, it, it just

27:47

sort of falls back into the old, you know, we've

27:49

already saw they didn't have their mother's brothers moment in

27:51

the garden. I mean, that

27:54

was pretty good. I mean,

27:56

look, Viserys, the range on

27:59

Viserys is just Magnificent a

28:01

lot of the a lot of the actors got

28:03

to got to do a lot a lot

28:07

of range this episode Yeah,

28:10

all right next storyline. This is Reneer

28:12

part 2 Viserys has

28:15

problems the king receives

28:17

his brother who has conquered the seps

28:19

zones Damon kneels and

28:21

hands over his arts and crafts crown

28:24

the two brothers laugh over old times in

28:26

the Godswood Later on the

28:28

king learns that Corlys has become a problem

28:30

in the step stones Moreover,

28:33

the sea snake is planning a marriage alliance

28:35

with bravos After a

28:37

gross bath and even grosser sex

28:40

He's told about Damon and his daughter

28:43

in a pleasure house the

28:45

king summons Damon he interrogates him kicks him

28:47

put the knife to his throat and Refuses

28:50

Damon's request to marry Reneer

28:54

Later on he reminds his daughter about Targaryen

28:56

prophecy and tells her that her duties are

28:58

more important than her desires He

29:01

commands her to marry Lenore Later

29:05

that night master mela shows up to

29:07

deliver moon tea Okay,

29:11

so Damon says something to Viserys

29:14

he says when I gave up my crown you said I

29:16

could have anything Do you

29:18

remember that conversation happening? I

29:20

don't remember that conversation happening

29:23

I don't either and it

29:25

did Kind of take

29:27

me not out but like a moment I'm just like

29:29

I what I don't like is when I'm because there's

29:31

so much to keep track of Yeah,

29:33

and when you when you're like, well, this is

29:35

something that was like, this is a narrative way

29:37

to be like Oh this conversation happened to worry

29:39

about it Or then

29:42

I'm like, oh wait, did I miss something and

29:44

when did I miss it? Right,

29:46

and I think it was it must have

29:49

happened off-screen Or

29:52

maybe it happened when like they were embracing in

29:54

front of the throne It's

29:59

all very interesting Interesting to me like

30:01

what if you're a serious, why would

30:03

you say such a thing? Yeah,

30:06

I know Yeah, I'm not sure. I'm not exactly

30:08

sure but I mean there is I mean ultimately

30:10

the scene matters because there's a Bend

30:13

the knee moment, right? I mean, it's yeah Yeah,

30:15

it's significant and then it's a significant way to just

30:18

and it was a very casual when everything was said

30:20

and done Like hey got a new haircut been

30:22

in the knee things are different now Get

30:27

ready for the job interview Yes,

30:30

okay. So this year if this year said

30:32

that and I guess I'm supposed to think

30:34

that he did It's

30:37

sort of further indication that he's

30:40

blinded by love He's

30:42

he's sort of blind. He was blinded by love

30:45

for Renara

30:48

in sort of allowing her to

30:50

make her own marriage choice When

30:53

everyone around her saying you're the king just just

30:55

marry her off. She doesn't have a choice in

30:57

it Like no, I wanted to be happy. I'm

31:00

gonna do something to make her happy And

31:03

I wanted to be happy the way that I

31:05

chose to be happy with that. Yeah Yeah

31:09

Yeah, I mean that still is this undercurrent

31:11

of selfishness really for him and he's like

31:14

It's almost like he can justify his own

31:16

sure his own selfishness by then passing it

31:18

down. Yeah in this case He

31:21

wants so desperately to make up with

31:23

his brother And I

31:26

honestly do believe that he loves his little brother It's

31:28

just that he can't figure out what the hell he's

31:31

gonna do next and he's just I think they both

31:33

love each other But I don't think either one has

31:35

any respect for each other Okay,

31:38

that's a good point. That's a good point. And

31:40

I so if that's the case Why

31:43

would you promise this to your tornado

31:45

brother? I don't see what

31:47

he can gain in this because I

31:49

think I think to in the same

31:51

way that we talk about Damon's Unpredictability

31:54

there's a certain amount of that with the

31:57

serous too. It's just maybe a little

31:59

more calm and And it's, and it's, he's in it.

32:01

And he does it in a way

32:03

that doesn't seem as, I mean, like he,

32:06

he named

32:09

Renéra his heir and then he

32:11

was going to waver on that. And

32:13

then when he gets pushed about

32:15

that, he's like, well, no, I need to,

32:17

to, to, to make it look like my

32:19

plan was my plan the whole time. And,

32:22

and, and, and so he's, and he's doing

32:24

it in a way that like, I think

32:26

Damon's moves are much

32:28

more bombastic, but his reaction

32:32

time is maybe a little more

32:34

graceful, whereas Viserys is

32:36

like this long kind of

32:39

drawn out, clumsy way of, of

32:41

dealing with things. And then he

32:43

reacts, but not like

32:45

with any intentionality of almost like

32:47

he's reacting, reacting

32:50

against his own ego or, or alongside it

32:53

in some way. It's just, it's, it's

32:55

an interesting dynamic because they're

32:57

not as dissimilar as it would appear.

32:59

Yeah. Viserys kind of presents as

33:01

someone who used to know how to have fun,

33:04

but it's been a long time since he

33:07

was not king. You know, he's been king for

33:10

a while now and

33:12

you don't get to have, I mean, unless

33:14

you're Robert Baratheon, I guess. Yeah.

33:17

You, the king doesn't get to have fun.

33:19

Viserys doesn't want to be king and

33:23

Damon thinks he wants to be king. And

33:25

it's like, if you were to flop their roles, then

33:27

I think it would be very similar, you know what I

33:30

mean? Damon probably would make a little more, uh, impetuous

33:33

decisions and whatnot, but I think that they

33:35

would both be dissatisfied. Yeah.

33:37

That's a good question. Would Damon be a

33:39

horrible king or would Damon, sir, is he

33:42

kind of like the dog that can finally

33:44

catch the bus? You

33:47

know, he did. He doesn't know what he wants.

33:49

He he's, he's striving for it, but if he

33:51

actually got it, he wouldn't know what to do

33:53

with it. Yeah, I think so. And I think

33:55

I'm looking at the brotherly rivalry too, which is

33:57

like, okay, look, you

33:59

had everything. you may be this, mom even liked you

34:01

better as far as I'm concerned, but I'm king. And

34:04

I'm going to prove that

34:07

I'm the better choice for king.

34:09

Whether I want to be king or not, I'm

34:11

just holding onto it. I don't even want this

34:13

toy, but I know you want this toy. So

34:16

this is now my favorite toy. If anybody asks,

34:19

I don't have to share this toy. I mean,

34:21

it sometimes feels like that sort of boils down to what

34:23

these two, and I think that makes it such a more

34:27

intriguing storyline

34:30

because it's

34:32

such a base way to look. Oh

34:35

man, these guys, they're like reverting back

34:37

to when they were like 12 and

34:39

six or whatever the

34:42

age difference there. But there is

34:44

a real sort of sense

34:46

of immaturity baked into their relationship.

34:49

Yeah, I mean, even like I said, when

34:51

Damon is confronted about Sully

34:53

and Renee, he's like, maybe, you

34:55

know, like there's just a certain

34:57

element of like

35:01

it serves, it doesn't serve him well

35:03

to do, to be coy in the,

35:05

if he's being strategic, but you're not

35:07

really interested in strategy at that point.

35:09

If you're really just interested in and

35:12

like, look, I'm, I'm sowing seeds of chaos

35:14

that may end up yielding

35:16

me this thing that you want only

35:18

because you're keeping it from me. Right.

35:23

Yeah. There's a few characters in this

35:25

story that are kind of attracted to

35:27

Damon because he is a tornado. It's

35:30

like you're fascinated with it because that's where

35:32

the action is. And

35:34

then you get caught up in it and you realize,

35:36

oh man, there's consequences and he's willing to live with

35:38

them. And I don't know if I, I don't know

35:40

if I'm willing to live with these. And

35:43

I think Viserys and Renee are both caught

35:45

up in his tornado in different ways. Of

35:49

course, Viserys kind of has the

35:51

long view and you, you

35:54

kind of get to see that in this episode that

35:56

he's, he's, you know, it's my job to have the

35:58

long view. And

36:01

it's not you know, I'm not gonna act like a

36:03

teenager here and and how can you fault her for

36:05

acting like a teenager? And he does

36:07

have the advantage of you know, like he's

36:09

grown up with Damon. So there's Even

36:12

even as unpredictable as maybe Damon could

36:15

be Viserys

36:17

is it at least used to

36:19

it Well, and there is

36:21

also the oldest brother in this

36:24

world, right the oldest brother There's

36:27

expectations on that guy's shoulders that

36:29

the second son wishes he had

36:32

and the older brother kind

36:34

of like regrets that he has Right.

36:36

This is like this dynamic like okay well You're

36:39

gonna have to be the Lord of this great

36:41

house And so we need you to grow up

36:43

a little bit faster and the second

36:45

son is sort of like less important But guess what the

36:47

second son gets to have a little bit more fun than

36:49

you and I think that there's always

36:51

sort of this I

36:54

think I'd do better in your role Yeah, there

36:56

was one other thing I want to talk about

36:58

with this storyline He tells her at one point

37:00

the serious is talking with Renee and he says

37:03

the truth isn't important Only

37:05

perception right? I think

37:08

it's a really important Game of Thrones

37:10

line It's

37:12

like what is the truth? The

37:14

truth is she did not have sex with her

37:16

uncle, right? That's the truth of the matter Now

37:20

she spins it in you know

37:22

toward falsehood when she's talking with Allison but

37:25

the truth of the matter factually speaking she did

37:27

not have sex with her uncle and The

37:30

king kind of tells her it doesn't that doesn't

37:32

matter That part doesn't

37:34

matter. It's how it looks to everyone

37:37

else and that's what you have to learn

37:39

if you're gonna rule Yeah,

37:41

and I think the Damon also tries to

37:43

teach her a similar lesson when they're watching

37:45

the the mummers Play

37:47

or whatever Mm-hmm. They're

37:49

opinion don't their opinions don't matter and

37:52

in demons like laughing at her saying

37:55

They kind of do matter if you want

37:57

to rule right and if

37:59

yes If you look like you don't

38:02

have control of your own situations, then

38:05

you don't look like you have control of the kingdom. And

38:09

in this case, it was like,

38:11

you put yourself in a situation

38:13

where, even if

38:16

it's just a lie and gossip,

38:20

there's enough smoke. And

38:24

we shouldn't even be having to go

38:26

around and do damage control in this

38:28

position. Yeah, yeah. If you're trying to

38:30

explain that there was no fire, there

38:32

was only smoke, you've lost the perception

38:35

battle, right? Right. Ah,

38:38

man. Okay. This

38:40

next storyline is called Allison's Descent.

38:43

The princess and the queen find common ground

38:45

in their sense of powerlessness. Allison

38:48

tries to find the bright side

38:51

of politically arranged marriages. The

38:53

queen can only thinly veil her

38:55

profound unhappiness. Renera

38:57

consoles her and apologizes. That night,

39:00

Allison bounces her baby like a

39:02

frightened babysitter at an ungodly hour

39:04

she is summoned to the king's

39:06

chambers. The next

39:09

day she overhears gossip about

39:11

Renera and confronts her in

39:13

the Godswood. The

39:15

princess swears upon her dead mother that

39:17

she did not couple with her uncle.

39:20

Allison discusses Renera with the

39:22

king and suggests that Damon

39:24

is lying. Allison

39:27

is kind of representing the traditional upstanding

39:29

wife in this episode. You

39:32

know, she's kind of, she plays by the rules. She

39:35

plays by all of the rules,

39:37

all the gender rules, and

39:40

she's profoundly unhappy in

39:42

the process. Right, yeah,

39:44

and it's, and

39:46

this is, I mean, she's the queen. Yeah,

39:49

you got the boon. You got, you got

39:52

what everyone thinks that they want, right? You're

39:54

the most powerful woman in the kingdom, quote

39:57

unquote, right? So, right. And

40:00

yet you have to just

40:04

lie there and take it. That's essentially

40:06

what it means, right?

40:08

Episode one, I think you gave Viserys

40:12

the name King

40:14

Scabby Patty. Yeah, yeah. This

40:17

was like the, you know, this is sort

40:19

of the pinnacle of King Scabby Patty in

40:22

this episode. Yeah, yeah. It's

40:24

real, real unappetizing. But she,

40:30

and she tries, she sort of

40:32

portrays this, a

40:34

voice of reason, but it's, you know, as

40:36

this goes on and we kind of know

40:39

it already from her father,

40:41

but as the episode

40:43

progresses, it's like you get a

40:45

real feeling for Allison in the sense that

40:47

she is really just a problem.

40:51

Yeah, that's right. In so many ways. And

40:53

her father used her as a tool and

40:55

now she's just the King's prop, right? Right.

40:58

And the King, you know, for all of

41:00

his speeches to

41:02

his daughter about like, like

41:04

almost how he's noble for having

41:07

chosen a life of happiness

41:10

as opposed to what is best maybe

41:12

for the political side of things. Well,

41:15

that's fine, but how is she doing in this? How's

41:17

Allison doing in this? I mean, this is even

41:20

in this, you know, it's like

41:23

the consequences of what we choose,

41:25

whether you know, we're in leadership

41:27

or not. I mean, it has

41:30

ramifications, right? And so like he's

41:32

made this choice to be happy,

41:35

but it shows that not only has

41:37

he done this relationship

41:39

that may have not been the best

41:42

political move, so it may not be the

41:44

best for the realm. It's not even best

41:46

for his immediate circle. You know, it just

41:48

like it's just it is it

41:50

shows how incredibly selfish this move was.

41:52

He doesn't have like the relationship that

41:54

he had with his, you know,

41:56

previous wife was there seem to be a

41:59

mutual affection. And respect.

42:01

It really did present a sort of like,

42:05

that's the rare jewel that you almost

42:07

never find in Game of Thrones. A

42:09

marriage that actually

42:11

found love. And

42:13

then of course he chooses the baby

42:16

over the wife in this. Right.

42:19

Okay, so Alison is interesting to me because

42:21

at the beginning of the

42:23

episode she's kind of commiserating with Renee. Aren't

42:26

we both in the same situation? Like

42:29

we were at odds we

42:31

should hold to each other like ships in

42:33

a storm. Like you know, I guess

42:36

that's better for it doesn't work. Just

42:41

don't hold each other. Can

42:43

we talk about the ships more? I just want to talk

42:46

about the ships. I

42:48

wish ships had arms. But

42:51

they should cling to each other like they

42:53

are in a storm. And they... Like

42:56

taxi cab. Like

42:59

bicycles. We're going to find it. At some point

43:01

we're going to find the metaphor that works. They

43:06

should hold on to each other. They both

43:09

are in a sense like they

43:11

are living different lives but they can see

43:13

the parallels enough that they

43:15

realize we should be friends because we

43:17

have this in common. And it only

43:20

takes one night for Alison to realize,

43:24

what are you doing out at night? I've

43:26

been playing by the rules. This is

43:28

miserable. I thought that we as women decided

43:30

we were going to play by the rules

43:32

and be miserable. That's the life of women.

43:35

Right? And so it's sort of like

43:38

Reneero. We got a pack. That's

43:41

right. So what are you

43:44

griping about? You're out with your uncle at

43:46

the hour of the owl. How

43:49

could you even allow yourself to be

43:51

put in a situation where your reputation

43:53

has been smurched? At

43:56

the start of this episode you really see that they

43:58

have a lot in common. At the end of the

44:01

episode, you really see that they're living much different lives.

44:03

The hour of the hour is a phrase I need

44:05

to use more on. Is that the only hour that

44:07

you can couple? Yeah,

44:11

what is the Westeros version of a nooner? I

44:15

really like the phrase coupling, because

44:18

they have other words, but that's a very old

44:21

timey phrase I think we should bring back. Yeah,

44:24

it's funny. My wife's giving me a

44:26

hard time, because I'm kind of reacting

44:28

to certain things. I

44:32

use the phrase more than once,

44:34

like, what happens if Rhaenyra's with

44:36

child? And she's like, what's child?

44:38

Oh, goodness. Well,

44:42

yeah, and that's something that the king is worried

44:44

about too, right? That

44:47

moon tea. Yeah,

44:49

the Westeros plan B. It

44:51

really is. And I'm just wondering,

44:53

when are we going to meet a maester

44:55

that's sort of like your cool professor? I

44:59

want to meet a maester that

45:01

doesn't look like he's got

45:04

two gouty feet. Right, the price

45:06

you pay for it. I mean, I guess we had Sam

45:08

at the end of the... I don't. But

45:11

I'm just waiting for him. Yeah, but

45:14

he strikes me as someone who would end up with some sort of

45:16

a condition. Right,

45:18

yeah. They can't all be like

45:20

that, right? I guess if you're

45:22

going to ascend to the heights and be the

45:24

maester of the king, you're

45:27

probably going to be the stage career

45:29

maester, I would guess. Yeah,

45:31

I think maybe there's a reality

45:34

show in Westeros we don't know about where

45:36

it's like hot maester or

45:38

something like that. Rate my maester,

45:40

hotness factors. Yeah, exactly.

45:43

Yeah, everybody. All

45:45

right. Got

45:48

it bad, got it bad, got it bad. I'm hot

45:50

for maester. I

45:52

love that video, by the way. Hot

45:55

for maester. The

45:57

big deal, 1985, hot for maester. All

46:05

right. Here

46:09

are the highlights coming up this week on Bald MooF. Our

46:12

coverage of Hot D, Fire and Blood

46:14

and Dead 1980s Shogun miniseries continues, but

46:16

then on Tuesday for the first time

46:18

in 35 years we ask the

46:20

question, Who Framed Roger

46:22

Rabbit? Hop aboard the train to

46:25

Toontown as we revisit this incredible blending of

46:27

live action and animation to see if it

46:29

still holds up all this time later. Then

46:32

on Wednesday we get our first look at

46:34

Blake Crouch's mind bending sci-fi series, Dark Matter.

46:37

The first two episodes dropped simultaneously on Apple

46:39

TV Plus and we'll have a pair of

46:41

podcasts, quantumly linked, ready for you to observe.

46:44

You can find these and many other great

46:46

podcasts by searching for Bald MooPulp or

46:48

Bald MooPrestige in your favorite podcast app.

47:06

We're getting geared up for the 6th

47:08

annual Summer Badass Best. And

47:11

while we're working on a slate of Apex

47:13

badass films to enjoy, we've got an early

47:15

action packed announcement to make. Just

47:18

like last year we're kicking off badass

47:20

season with a live movie watch and

47:22

podcast recording. We've rented out a theater

47:24

for connoisseurs of action films and bald

47:26

moved fans that just want to have

47:28

a great time. Unlike

47:31

last year, this year's movie is top

47:33

secret, hush hush. No

47:35

hints, except it's incredibly badass.

47:37

It stars an absolute icon of the

47:39

genre. We're willing to bet most

47:42

of you haven't seen it and it's going

47:44

to be an incredible viewing experience without packed

47:46

house of bald movers. Those

47:48

of you who came to last year's screening

47:50

of Total Recall know what a party it

47:52

was and those of you who didn't, now's

47:54

your chance to experience it. Meet me and

47:56

Jim, order some custom movie themed drinks that

47:59

they can have. the theater's full bar.

48:01

Then watch us record the full

48:03

podcast for the movie. We reserved

48:05

the venue over twice the size

48:07

of last year, but seating is

48:09

still limited. It's

48:12

happening Friday, Friday, Friday, June

48:14

21st at 7pm in our

48:17

hometown of Cincinnati. Get

48:19

full details and buy tickets

48:22

at baldmove.com/live. Cincinnati's

48:24

actually a pretty great city to visit and we've

48:27

got lots of details for our side adventures and

48:29

our event page as well. The Reds

48:31

are playing to Boston Red

48:33

Sox and their fantastic Riverside

48:35

Stadium, the thrills of Kings

48:37

Island just minutes away and

48:39

I'll be leading a kayak

48:41

trip down the scenic Little

48:43

Miami River on Saturday. Again,

48:46

get full details and get

48:48

your tickets now on our

48:50

Badass Fest 6 page at

48:52

baldmove.com/live. Here

49:07

are the weekly highlights coming up this week on baldmove.

49:09

Apple TV is releasing a new series

49:12

based on Blake Crouch's novel Dark Matter.

49:14

Hey Ron and I are big fans of his work, so we're

49:16

picking up the new show on day one. Join

49:19

us this Wednesday for the preview podcast. The

49:21

Shogun Limited series might be over, but that

49:23

doesn't mean our Shogun coverage has to end.

49:25

We've got the wrap up podcast releasing this Tuesday

49:27

where we'll consider all your feedback and final

49:29

thoughts on the series. And because we like

49:31

the show so much, we decided to go

49:33

all the way back to 1980 to cover

49:35

the first TV adaptation of the novel. Do what

49:37

you can to find the copy and join us

49:39

this Thursday for the first of our four

49:41

part podcast in the 1980 Shogun mini series.

49:44

And finally, the latest first run movie, The

49:46

Fall Guy, features Emily Blunt and Ryan Gosling.

49:48

He's a stuntman tasked with finding the star of

49:51

his ex-girlfriend's movie when he suddenly goes missing. Did

49:54

a rom-com? Yes. Does that mean

49:56

I'll automatically hate it? Not if the

49:58

trailer lives up to its promise. Join

50:00

us for the podcast on Baldmoot pulp this Thursday

50:02

night. You can find these and

50:04

many other great podcasts by searching for Baldmoot

50:06

pulp or Baldmoot prestige in your favorite podcast

50:08

app. This

50:17

is a storyline, a very

50:19

short storyline, Damon and Masaria. Damon

50:21

wakes up with a hangover

50:23

in Masaria's King's Landing apartment. She

50:26

tries to give him some sort of elixir

50:28

but he pours it out and insults her.

50:31

She tells him he can pay for the room on

50:33

his way out. So a couple things

50:35

about this. Number one, my

50:38

sense is that we've met our new Varus.

50:41

She's called the White Worm. She's

50:44

clearly managing the little bird that was

50:47

sort of witnessing the whole thing. And

50:51

so she must have some kind

50:53

of connection with Ser Otto. Then

50:57

the question is, now that Ser Otto is sort

50:59

of out of the picture, what

51:01

kind of influence will she be able

51:04

to wield? Yeah,

51:06

and what is Otto now? Yeah,

51:08

like how will he continue to exert

51:10

influence? Because there's no he's not going

51:12

to exert influence, right? Well

51:14

his daughter is Queen. So

51:17

there is an inevitable connection, right? I

51:19

mean it's like it's

51:21

one thing to remove him as the hand, but

51:23

I mean are they going to remove

51:27

him from a family

51:30

perspective as well? It's almost like you've

51:32

established now that he has, you know,

51:34

because he has a Varus in

51:37

King's Landing, presumably

51:39

he goes back to Old Town and

51:42

he sits in his castle or whatever,

51:44

but he still has eyes and ears

51:47

and he still has sort of some

51:50

authority over the Queen. Yeah,

51:52

which does present itself, like to

51:54

me this is an exciting moment

51:57

from a viewing perspective because, you

51:59

know, I mean everybody's got a certain agenda

52:02

but Otto has a there's

52:05

there's a craftiness and a much bigger

52:08

picture approach that we don't

52:10

have like that's what what's the criticism of

52:12

Damon as a as a quote villain is

52:15

is he's just he's very living the moment

52:17

he's not he doesn't seem like he's got

52:19

a grand plans whereas Otto could

52:22

be that that's right that's right you

52:24

got a guy with actual machinations so

52:27

yeah so Masari is our new Verus

52:29

and so that's interesting and

52:32

then I was also gonna say that you

52:35

kind of see Damon

52:37

with his ex-girlfriend I mean like

52:40

it's kind of a weird thing to have

52:42

an ex-girlfriend in this world but it's sort

52:44

of like I mean I'm

52:47

getting the sense that she wasn't

52:49

thrilled with what he said about her being

52:51

pregnant and she so she just leaves his

52:53

dragonstone because now she's living

52:55

in King's Landing and she's connected in

52:58

King's Landing and

53:00

it's it's interesting to me that like

53:03

you almost see the people

53:05

who are cast off

53:07

by the tornado you know they

53:09

they they're gonna go live their lives afterwards

53:12

they had their time with Damon and they

53:14

had their fun and they're

53:16

not gonna stay with him forever because that's not what happens

53:18

with tornadoes so

53:20

I like I like that she's you know she's

53:23

kind of landed on her feet she's in King's

53:25

Landing she still kind of

53:27

has a little affection for him otherwise

53:29

you know why why nurse him back

53:31

to health but

53:34

she kind of knows like you're

53:37

you're bad for all the women in your life and I'm

53:39

not gonna be that for you that's

53:42

why that's my sense of it anyway but

53:45

as we've just been discussing that

53:47

there you know the connections potentially with Otto and

53:49

any other kind of like maybe maybe

53:51

her role isn't maybe

53:54

maybe maybe there is an assignment attached to

53:56

some of this as well yeah interesting yeah

53:58

we'll have to see how how

54:01

she comes into the plot because she's

54:03

kind of been ancillary to this point

54:06

But you can kind of like if you

54:09

have the job Barris had you can

54:11

absolutely be influential and

54:14

I always got the sense that kind

54:16

of Barris while a

54:18

little bit slimy Kind

54:21

of had the best interest of the realm in mind.

54:23

I've got no idea what her motives are What

54:26

what was her what was her design? Did she want

54:28

did she love? Damon or

54:30

did she want to get close to Damon because

54:32

that was a proximity to power thing because

54:34

she has aspirations of her own It's

54:38

totally veiled. I don't I don't understand

54:40

why she's doing what she's doing yet

54:42

in the show, which is which is

54:44

something to That's pretty

54:47

remarkable. We you know, this is one of

54:49

the few episodes. We didn't travel a couple

54:51

years Yeah And

54:53

but we like, you know things are

54:55

unfolding but there's still a lot to

54:58

be discovered Okay, last

55:00

Storyline auto gets canned auto high tower

55:03

receives a message from the spy network

55:05

Apparently someone named the white worm has

55:07

important information The

55:09

next morning auto informs the king that Damon

55:12

and Renara were coupling in the bowels of

55:14

a pleasure den Viserys

55:16

calls it gossip the

55:18

king and the princess discuss auto as

55:21

they argue Renara accuses auto of being

55:23

self-interested and demands that

55:25

auto be dismissed Auto

55:27

is summoned and canned. I Like

55:31

that Viserys was you know, she's basically

55:33

saying look autos got his own interests

55:35

in mind You can't trust him and

55:37

the king quips back Everyone

55:40

I meet is self-interested. That means

55:42

that everyone on the small council

55:45

is self-interested. That's part of the

55:47

job That's

55:50

I love that. He put it as blatantly as that

55:52

it made me really like I think that early on

55:54

I thought this guy doesn't know what it's like to

55:56

be king. I think he he

55:59

absolutely understands what

56:01

it takes to be king, it's

56:03

just that how could anyone be good at this?

56:07

I just think that the job is

56:09

just it's just fraught and unless you're

56:12

like a genius how are

56:14

you gonna thrive? I don't I

56:16

anyway I just love what he said about like it's

56:19

the job of the king to realize that

56:21

every single person at that table is self-interested

56:23

and to be wise enough to

56:26

kind of read through

56:28

all of that all of that

56:30

spin to find the advice that

56:32

you need. Yeah and I

56:34

did that you know it's rare

56:38

self-awareness it feels like from Viserys

56:41

but it only seems like whenever I mean like

56:43

that the dynamics between Viserys and Renera seems to

56:45

be like one of the more genuine

56:48

back and forths right yeah it so

56:52

that's kind of a it's

56:54

it's a nice break because it feels even

56:56

though I think that we feel like we

56:59

have better understanding of maybe their motivation so

57:01

even if they're not being completely honest with

57:03

each other it still feels like we

57:06

can track those conversations and understand where they're

57:08

headed and it

57:10

does feel like there is at

57:12

the core you know I mean she's gonna keep

57:14

certain things from him I mean his father she's

57:16

a teenager and he's gonna

57:19

keep certain things from her because he's the king

57:21

and the father all those different things but

57:24

so you understand why but it feels like

57:26

there's at least an undercurrent of sincerity when

57:28

they when they speak like even with the

57:30

Otto thing right I mean she's right

57:33

but her motivations may not be

57:35

to be right

57:38

by the realm well she's she's

57:40

absolutely right she's got her own

57:42

self-interest right but but she view

57:44

she realizes who Otto is in

57:48

a way that you know you the king kind of

57:50

is coming to the realization but he

57:52

almost tolerates it I think he's what

57:54

kind of you know he's suspected like

57:57

why does it why the Allison come

57:59

to my my room the night my

58:01

wife died. I think he's been

58:03

suspicious for a long time. And then of

58:06

course Otto... He needs him, right? I mean,

58:08

Otto is a better... There's

58:10

a reason why he's with a hand, right? And

58:12

Listeras, unlike some other kings that we've seen in

58:15

these shows, is that he gets

58:18

it, like a need for a council, right?

58:20

Part of the thing, because he just doesn't

58:22

want to think about it. That's the thing.

58:24

Let's say you want a smart hand of

58:26

the king, right? So

58:28

how often will you... So let's say

58:30

you just go out and find the

58:32

smartest, most politically savvy guy to be

58:35

hand of the king. What

58:37

are the chances that that person's not also going to

58:39

be a schemer? Right.

58:41

You know? It's like that's kind of it.

58:44

If you're good at the political machinations, you're

58:46

probably also going to be a schemer. Right.

58:49

So I thought it was... It'd

58:52

be weird if you weren't. It'd be weird if it

58:54

wasn't, right? So then the question is who's next? And

58:56

I think that if

59:00

it was me, I would probably promote,

59:02

you know, Lord Strong. That's

59:05

my thought. And it's

59:07

interesting because he does present as someone

59:10

who's wise and politically savvy. And

59:13

if he is a schemer, he's kind

59:15

of held his cards close. Right.

59:17

You don't have that sense of him

59:19

yet. Yeah.

59:22

Whereas Otto, like maybe it may have

59:24

been a long time coming, but he's

59:27

definitely like now it's like he's pulling

59:29

all the levers or trying to. I

59:32

do like that Otto goes out with

59:34

a little dignity. I feel like he knows like,

59:37

well, I'm still going to be playing the game.

59:40

Even if I'm not in this room, I'm a bit surprised.

59:44

Looks like I'm not going to be hand of the king anymore. I'm

59:46

not going to like, you know, kick

59:49

the dirt on my way out because

59:52

this is not over. And it

59:55

very well could be that I need to have

59:57

a relationship with this king going forward. Well,

1:00:00

and it could very well be that if something, if

1:00:02

it looks like something's unraveling, you

1:00:04

need to have some stability. Maybe you bring

1:00:07

Otto back into the fold and maybe it's because

1:00:09

of things that Otto has done to create instability.

1:00:13

But yeah, he's too clever to

1:00:15

go out like that, right? He

1:00:19

strikes me as this was a potential,

1:00:23

you know, this fallout

1:00:25

was, you know, not

1:00:27

necessarily inevitable, but it was probably part of the plan.

1:00:30

Like, this could go this way. And if that's the

1:00:32

case, then I do this. Again, different than Damon. Like,

1:00:35

this happened. Like,

1:00:40

even his haircut, I don't even know that he was like, he's

1:00:42

probably like, gosh, I'm gonna cut off all my hair. It's

1:00:44

just so impetuous. Where

1:00:46

do you go for a haircut in Westeros?

1:00:51

Like, someone's got to be doing this stuff, right?

1:00:53

Yeah, one guy was probably like, like, he was

1:00:55

walking by feeling pretty good about himself. He had

1:00:57

his crown on and someone's like, I

1:01:00

didn't know Nelson got back together. And he's like, nah,

1:01:02

dude, I'm cutting my hair. Okay,

1:01:06

uh, Cheek Speak. I'm

1:01:10

gonna let you judge this one. Because

1:01:12

you took the over, you took five and took the

1:01:15

over and I took the under. Yeah,

1:01:17

they definitely went under because of the

1:01:19

speak. Yeah, I was, it's a

1:01:21

little crazy thinking like this, the episode, you know,

1:01:24

this is sort of the sex

1:01:26

carnival episode, right? Yeah,

1:01:28

I think the best I could come up with was

1:01:31

two. Yeah, I came up with three. I

1:01:34

had two side cheeks. I think it's at

1:01:36

one point I see a tiny crack of

1:01:38

Sir Christian's. Oh, okay. So

1:01:40

that would give us two, right? Yeah.

1:01:43

But I mean, it was sort of like I was again,

1:01:45

kudos to Claire Kilner to put together an

1:01:51

episode that was like all about

1:01:53

sex, like all about sex.

1:01:57

And just to thwart our Cheek Speak.

1:01:59

speak element of this podcast. Yes.

1:02:03

We were right in the sense that we were due, but

1:02:05

we were wrong in the sense of how it was executed.

1:02:08

Clearly, Claire is a listener to Double Dragon,

1:02:10

and she thought it would be fun to

1:02:12

mess with us. Well, I

1:02:14

think this is where we have to really

1:02:17

call a rat out on the table here.

1:02:20

If she's listening, she's like, oh, crap. I

1:02:23

bet the under. She

1:02:25

quick runs into the editing room. A

1:02:28

few blurs, a few close-ups,

1:02:30

get rid of this scene. Next

1:02:33

thing you know, she's cashing in. So

1:02:36

I'm going to say that the under one on this

1:02:38

one. Yeah, the under one. You

1:02:41

noticed too. I noticed, I counted

1:02:43

three. Amazing.

1:02:46

Amazing that this episode, we were on the

1:02:48

under for the cheek speak. Okay,

1:02:52

Steve, was this a Dorn,

1:02:55

a Danny, or a Dinklage rated

1:02:58

episode? This is a hard

1:03:00

one for me, but I think I'm going to go

1:03:02

a Dinklage minus two. That's interesting.

1:03:04

I'm going to go a properly Dinklage on

1:03:07

this. Properly Dinklage, okay.

1:03:10

I think I'm just reluctant. Well,

1:03:13

once you go Dinklage, it's sort of

1:03:15

like, now you're measuring

1:03:17

everything against an episode, right? Right,

1:03:20

right. So,

1:03:23

I was tempted to go in

1:03:25

the properly Dinklage realm.

1:03:27

I think it was a really rich episode. I

1:03:29

think it was, like you said,

1:03:31

I think it was wonderfully directed. There

1:03:35

were a lot of, it

1:03:37

just, there was a lot of really good

1:03:40

parallels. There was a lot of interesting things

1:03:42

that unfolded. It's dramatic. It

1:03:45

just, I walked and

1:03:47

I go, that was very good. I was, I knew

1:03:50

I was in more Dinklage range, but I wasn't, it still

1:03:52

wasn't, didn't have that like, oh, ho, ho, ho, ho. Like

1:03:54

to me that's the Dinklage, like the ho, ho, ho, ho,

1:03:57

ho, ho, you have to make that noise. Yeah,

1:03:59

yeah, yeah. So if you need a

1:04:01

little refresher here, so Dinklage is a

1:04:03

great episode, Danny is a good episode,

1:04:06

and then Dorn is an underwhelming episode.

1:04:09

I'm gonna say it's probably Dinklage. I

1:04:11

felt like, you know, put myself

1:04:13

in Viserys's shoes. He's

1:04:16

clearly misunderstanding the situation.

1:04:19

Would I act any differently? Based

1:04:22

on the information that he has, would

1:04:24

I act any differently as king? I

1:04:27

don't know, like I might, but

1:04:30

I can't, I mean, I can totally understand

1:04:33

why he's acting the way he's acting. And

1:04:36

then of course, you look at

1:04:38

sort of Rhaenyra, you can't really fault her

1:04:40

for doing what she's doing. You

1:04:43

know, she's gonna sort of realize later in

1:04:45

life, like, oh, that was really reckless. I

1:04:47

absolutely shouldn't have done that. But as a

1:04:49

teenager, it's not like my

1:04:51

opinion of her lessons because of some of

1:04:53

the actions that she's taken. From

1:04:56

Alison's point of view, she's playing by all

1:04:58

the rules. I did everything,

1:05:00

you asked me to be miserable, I'm going to

1:05:02

be miserable. You know, I

1:05:05

can totally understand why she's resentful of her friend.

1:05:08

You know, Damon's like this

1:05:10

wild card, but I can't

1:05:12

take my eyes off him. So again, I

1:05:15

think everyone in this episode, I

1:05:17

understand why you

1:05:19

act in the world the way that you

1:05:21

do. And then it's the alchemy

1:05:23

of problems that's created when all

1:05:26

of these characters bump against each

1:05:28

other. To me, that

1:05:30

is great storytelling. And

1:05:33

so I'm gonna say a properly

1:05:35

dinklage. Right on. Oh,

1:05:38

finally, Steve, I wanted to read

1:05:41

a review on

1:05:43

Apple iTunes, which we love to get

1:05:46

from listeners. This is

1:05:48

our first two star review. It's

1:05:52

called Double Bummer. And

1:05:56

it's written by Heidi.

1:06:00

That that's what this person calls

1:06:02

themselves. I really

1:06:04

loved the electric buccaloo rereads

1:06:07

from Anthony's other Podcasts, I

1:06:09

absolutely enjoy the different viewpoints

1:06:11

and inside information from the

1:06:13

academia guests Why

1:06:17

I won't be listening to double dragon anymore

1:06:19

is because the host seemed to only find

1:06:21

the negatives and everything It

1:06:23

seems to me that they are looking for reasons

1:06:25

not to like the show Everyone

1:06:28

has their own opinion and that is fine.

1:06:30

But the mention of in every episode that

1:06:32

it's not funny enough for them Because

1:06:35

there is an a tyrian like character

1:06:37

is getting very stale It's

1:06:39

a fairly it's a family drama

1:06:42

fantasy not a family comedy fantasy

1:06:45

I would love to see more optimism from

1:06:47

the hosts and In

1:06:49

all honesty if I keep listening It will

1:06:51

only be skipping to the part where the

1:06:53

professors are giving more inside information into medieval

1:06:56

life so that

1:06:58

was from high and I Think

1:07:02

that maybe she's got

1:07:05

a kernel of truth But

1:07:08

I can't help feel like I'm being

1:07:10

judged unfairly We've

1:07:12

given every episode a positive

1:07:15

review for one. Well, I did give one a

1:07:17

dorn Yeah, I did I

1:07:19

think I gave the last one a door because I didn't but I

1:07:22

really it was only that one storyline that I Didn't

1:07:24

work for me. It was the crab Peter storyline that

1:07:26

didn't work for me in the end. I Actually,

1:07:30

really liked this show. I look forward to

1:07:32

this show. So I think maybe I should

1:07:34

make that clear In

1:07:36

fact, I gave this last episode a very

1:07:40

high really. Yeah. I mean, I think

1:07:42

if the concern is that we appear

1:07:44

to be focused on Those

1:07:47

moments that could use a little levity or

1:07:49

humor and we mention it in

1:07:52

the same way, I would say that your Critique

1:07:55

of the podcast is really focusing on

1:07:57

one element of the podcast I

1:08:00

don't feel like it would serve the

1:08:02

podcast well if we started

1:08:04

shying away from saying the things that

1:08:06

didn't work for us. I

1:08:09

think that in order to be honest dealers,

1:08:11

we're going to have to sort of call

1:08:13

something out when we think, yeah, that didn't

1:08:15

work. This episode needed a

1:08:17

little bit more warmth or a little bit more

1:08:19

levity. We like the show. I

1:08:22

mean, I'm rewatching Breaking Bad and this

1:08:24

show, I think, is one of my

1:08:26

favorite shows of all time. There

1:08:29

are moments now where I'm looking at it with a

1:08:31

little bit more of a critical eye and I'm like,

1:08:33

maybe that scene wasn't great or maybe

1:08:35

it was a little melodramatic, but it

1:08:38

doesn't take away from my enjoyment of it. In

1:08:40

fact, if anything, it's actually heightening

1:08:42

my appreciation for it because I'm looking

1:08:44

at all of it and how it

1:08:46

gets put together. I

1:08:50

mean, again, this is a

1:08:52

show that we have, I think, spoken pretty

1:08:54

fondly of while also looking at

1:08:56

it, not just as a story,

1:08:58

but how it's constructed and how it

1:09:01

fits into the Game

1:09:03

of Thrones universe. That

1:09:05

universe includes, if I

1:09:07

may invoke Viserys,

1:09:10

perception matters. The

1:09:13

perception of Game of Thrones going into House of Dragon,

1:09:15

we've talked about, is very mixed.

1:09:18

Like you said, it's got the burden

1:09:21

of following a great show and the

1:09:23

burden of following one of the most

1:09:25

disappointing moments in television history. Those

1:09:28

are two heavy burdens to balance at

1:09:30

the same exact time and that's just a

1:09:32

reality of the viewing experience. We're

1:09:34

looking at this, the very fact

1:09:36

that our rating system brings

1:09:39

in. Yeah, we're always comparing. Every single

1:09:41

episode we're comparing. Right.

1:09:43

Okay, so I'm going to just

1:09:45

say in defense of Haei, again,

1:09:49

it's a perception issue. These

1:09:51

perceived our particular podcast in

1:09:53

this way, so in this

1:09:55

way perception supersedes truth

1:10:00

and I think that that's what

1:10:02

reviews do a lot of

1:10:04

the time. In

1:10:06

addition to that, I think if

1:10:09

I was going to be a little

1:10:11

bit self-reflective, why is Dinklage my

1:10:13

high mark? Why

1:10:16

is the comedy relief of the first

1:10:18

show the thing that I've set

1:10:20

up as the standard for this show? Right,

1:10:23

that's fair. And it's probably,

1:10:25

I don't know, going into this, I think we

1:10:27

came up with our rating system before we had

1:10:31

watched a single episode of House of

1:10:33

the Dragon. And so

1:10:35

it's a flawed rating system and

1:10:38

I'm happy with it. I'm happy to keep it the

1:10:40

way that it is and just

1:10:42

note that our rating system means

1:10:45

nothing. Right.

1:10:49

So anyway. And I would say that yeah,

1:10:51

while Dinklage did provide much of the comic

1:10:53

relief, there was other comic relief besides Dinklage

1:10:55

and some of the episodes that I think

1:10:57

of were Dinklage where I would put them

1:10:59

on that high level. I'm

1:11:01

thinking of in

1:11:03

the courtroom, I'm

1:11:06

thinking of him in

1:11:08

the cell having conversations

1:11:10

with his

1:11:12

brother and those moments weren't particularly funny. They

1:11:17

just had it. Oh no, he did. And he was

1:11:19

like, the range on

1:11:22

Dinklage and

1:11:24

the complicated elements of that character

1:11:26

go far beyond comic relief. And

1:11:28

I think that that is what

1:11:31

a good Dinklage episode would bring. It could

1:11:33

give you all of that and none of

1:11:35

it was diluting the other. In fact, it

1:11:37

was all a chance in each other. So

1:11:40

that's when I look at the high water mark of

1:11:42

a Dinklage. And that's why

1:11:44

I think this episode that we just reviewed is

1:11:47

in that range because there was magnificent

1:11:51

melodrama, really interesting political

1:11:54

machinations that were going on,

1:11:56

character development that just further

1:11:58

complicated. relationships

1:12:00

all that was happening yeah

1:12:02

and all the actors are pulling this off

1:12:05

so right so uh... high i

1:12:07

hope you stick with us but i totally

1:12:09

understand if you need to go elsewhere that's

1:12:11

that's fine too alright steve

1:12:14

uh... predictions are we didn't do cheek

1:12:16

speak predictions for the next episode that's

1:12:18

right uh... well in that you

1:12:20

know i feel like i'm gonna get burned but i'm gonna

1:12:23

i'm gonna set the debate this point i think you have

1:12:25

to start looking at the data and

1:12:27

uh... i think i'm gonna set the line at two

1:12:29

and a half two and a half

1:12:31

so you're looking at uh... two full

1:12:33

moons and a side cheek and

1:12:36

i and then these have to be

1:12:38

characters who have a some dialogue in the episode

1:12:41

yeah uh... and

1:12:45

so two-and-a-half if

1:12:48

i go to if i think it's exactly two and

1:12:50

a half do i go over or under well

1:12:53

uh... it's a push it's

1:12:55

a push and when you go

1:12:57

for the push you

1:12:59

don't you think it's going to have yeah

1:13:03

we'll go over uh... don't

1:13:05

get it really over but

1:13:08

you can't continue to do it and i think it's

1:13:10

going to be a great i think

1:13:12

you just set the line but that's not

1:13:14

that that's not that that that that that

1:13:16

no pun intended uh...

1:13:26

hey it's time for another season of why is

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mister phoenix car the premise

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is simple a gen xer and millennial watch

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old eighties action tv to see what still

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1:13:37

done podcast night writer air wolf the guy

1:13:39

for a team and more however this year

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we're doing a very special season of phoenix

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we're going back and reviewing the very special

1:13:46

episodes of eighties and nineties sitcoms come

1:13:49

cringe along with us as hollywood tries

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to warn our families dangers of underage

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smoking drug abuse alcoholism eating disorders and

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much more we start out with

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the episode of boy meets world where a high school kid

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gets sucked into a cult. Worlds

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collide as the Mr. Feeny finally makes an appearance

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on Why Is Mr. Feeny a Car? Join

1:14:07

me and my buddy Jay each week for

1:14:09

episodes full of nostalgia and second-hand embarrassment. And

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don't worry, the very special isn't near speed.

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We've also got some all-time classic Knight Rider

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episodes to close the season with. Find

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Why Is Mr. Feeny a Car? Each Wednesday

1:14:20

on Bald Moof Pulp, starting April 3rd. Vida

1:14:31

Mudan Phin answers a question

1:14:33

about sex and perceptions of

1:14:35

sex in the pre-modern period.

1:14:44

Alright, so book at baldmoof.com if

1:14:46

you have a question. This

1:14:49

is a question from Thomas. This

1:14:54

is an interesting question. Were

1:14:56

there any people in the pre-modern period

1:14:58

that were sex positive? Or

1:15:02

were they more puritanical? Was sex

1:15:04

mostly a thing done for progeny?

1:15:07

Was it mostly a thing between married couples?

1:15:10

I get the sense that ancient Romans were

1:15:13

sometimes free thinkers. Did

1:15:15

things change all that much between periods?

1:15:18

So first of all, the use of

1:15:20

the word puritanical is interesting here because

1:15:23

puritanism is of course a later religious

1:15:25

sect. It's much, much later. It's not

1:15:27

medieval at all. Puritanism

1:15:30

develops in the 16th century as

1:15:32

a reaction against Catholicism. Puritans

1:15:35

wore black and white. They abstained from drinking. They

1:15:38

were notorious for hating the theater during

1:15:40

Shakespeare's lifetime. So while they are very much

1:15:42

not medieval, they are early modern. They

1:15:45

have an incredible influence on the

1:15:48

way that modern Western ideas and

1:15:50

culture have developed, particularly in the United

1:15:52

States, but also in the United Kingdom.

1:15:55

My sense is that Thomas is thinking more

1:15:58

in the colloquial sense of the term. Sure,

1:16:01

sure. But that is

1:16:03

kind of interesting because that

1:16:06

is a, Puritanism

1:16:10

was a reaction against Catholicism and

1:16:12

it was very, and it was

1:16:15

a specifically a reaction against late

1:16:17

medieval Catholicism. Okay. And

1:16:19

late medieval Catholicism was, it's

1:16:22

like, there was a lot going

1:16:24

on there. And some of it was, some

1:16:26

of it was more questionable than others. So,

1:16:30

but in a more general sense, just like

1:16:33

in modern times, pre-modern ideas of sex

1:16:35

and sexuality existed on a spectrum. They

1:16:37

wouldn't use words, the same words that we

1:16:39

use today. They wouldn't use the same terminology

1:16:41

that we use today, homosexual, transgender, anything like

1:16:44

that, to describe themselves. But

1:16:46

the ideas and the identities did

1:16:48

exist. And we

1:16:50

can absolutely see them in primary sources

1:16:52

if we know what we're looking for. Particularly,

1:16:54

it's interesting, particularly if you look

1:16:56

at saints live, that is where

1:16:58

a lot of these ideas

1:17:01

tend to crop up because

1:17:03

the way that they ended up getting, I'm sorry,

1:17:06

you said, you said saints, saints

1:17:08

live. Yes. Medieval saints lives are

1:17:12

an absolute treasure trove

1:17:14

for looking at ideas

1:17:16

about medieval sexuality and ideas

1:17:19

about my, and particularly ideas

1:17:21

about medieval gender because saints

1:17:24

occupied a very

1:17:27

different space. They occupied a very

1:17:30

different physical space from

1:17:33

normal people. They were viewed as other.

1:17:35

They were viewed as blessed,

1:17:39

isolated, like there's, they were

1:17:41

just put into a very separate. They were set apart. Yeah, they

1:17:43

were set apart. And

1:17:46

many of those saints had

1:17:49

very interesting, very

1:17:53

almost modern ideas about their

1:17:55

own identity. And

1:17:58

it's really interesting. There's the There's some wonderful work

1:18:00

that's been done on this. I recommend the work

1:18:03

of GW Biczowski. I can give

1:18:05

you the exact, I can give you a list

1:18:08

just so I don't mess up spellings and things

1:18:10

like that. But there are a

1:18:13

bunch of books on this topic and a bunch

1:18:15

of articles on this topic. And it is, there's

1:18:17

an incredible amount of information. But

1:18:20

it is important to remember that these, that

1:18:22

medieval Europe did not exist in a vacuum.

1:18:24

And we can also see the influence of

1:18:26

Islamic ideas, especially in Southern regions. And

1:18:30

Islam, particularly, I'm talking about

1:18:32

medieval Islam here. Medieval

1:18:35

Islam was actually a very sex-positive religion.

1:18:39

And so if you

1:18:41

look at areas like Sicily,

1:18:43

Southern Italy, Byzantium, Iberia,

1:18:47

even Southern France, a

1:18:50

lot of these ideas kind of permeate

1:18:52

over these borders because there was so

1:18:54

much cultural exchange happening. There was

1:18:56

trade going on. People were sharing ideas

1:18:58

about poetry. They were sharing ideas

1:19:01

about the classics. Like the way

1:19:03

that classical literature, what we think of

1:19:05

as classical literature, Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, the way

1:19:07

that all of those writings

1:19:09

made it into Europe at

1:19:12

the time was through the

1:19:14

caliphate. It was through trade

1:19:16

with the Middle East. So

1:19:21

all of these ideas are kind of percolating in

1:19:23

Europe. And so I wouldn't go,

1:19:25

why I wouldn't go so far as to say

1:19:27

that medieval people were self-positive. Sex was

1:19:29

part of life. It

1:19:31

was very much a part of people's lives. It

1:19:33

was very much a part of people's everyday lives

1:19:35

because when you think about a medieval household, you

1:19:38

don't get much privacy. You've got

1:19:40

everyone living in a single room. Yeah,

1:19:43

right. So if like whoever

1:19:45

you were sharing a house with, like

1:19:48

everybody knew what was going on. Yeah,

1:19:50

these kids are coming from somewhere and there's

1:19:53

usually other people in the house, right? Yep,

1:19:55

it was rare to have your own bed, let

1:19:57

alone your own bedroom. Everyone was all up and

1:19:59

everything. else is this. Now,

1:20:02

if you've read, for instance, Chaucer's

1:20:04

Canterbury Tales, there are plenty of

1:20:06

raunchy scenes and raunchy subplots. They're

1:20:08

all in there for comedic purposes.

1:20:11

And yeah, some of them are meant like,

1:20:13

okay, you know, you really shouldn't be doing

1:20:15

this. But also, it's all just comedy. Even

1:20:19

if some of it is comedy, that some of

1:20:21

it is not something that we

1:20:23

would find funny today, it was

1:20:25

considered comic at the time. So

1:20:27

for instance, character of the wife of Bath,

1:20:30

she has married five separate times, she boasts

1:20:32

about how great she is in bed. And

1:20:35

at one point, it is indicated that

1:20:37

she that one of her husband might have died in

1:20:39

bed with her. But we don't

1:20:41

actually get the sense that we're meant to disapprove of

1:20:43

her at all. Like this is just one woman

1:20:46

who happened to be

1:20:48

married five separate times. And

1:20:50

who's so good at sex that she

1:20:52

might kill you with it. Exactly.

1:20:54

And at

1:20:57

one point, late in the late in the life

1:20:59

of basketball, she's like, yeah, I've had five husbands,

1:21:01

but I'm on the lookout for number six. Yeah,

1:21:06

like this, this is a woman we are not,

1:21:08

we're clearly not meant to disapprove of her, she's

1:21:10

clearly meant to just be a lot of fun.

1:21:13

But on the other hand, you also have something

1:21:15

like the romance of the rose, which my

1:21:18

one of my favorite professors described

1:21:20

the romance of the rose as

1:21:22

20,000 lines of poetry about a

1:21:24

man trying to have sex with a plant. And

1:21:28

I can't disagree. That's

1:21:31

great. That's great. Well,

1:21:33

I it's a great question, Thomas. And

1:21:35

I had no idea how Kavita was

1:21:38

going to answer. But I'm, it's

1:21:40

just really great to hear this. I think you

1:21:42

could get the sense from a

1:21:45

Game of Thrones or House of the Dragon show

1:21:48

that everyone's having sex with everyone all the

1:21:50

time. But but

1:21:53

I think that there's probably danger

1:21:55

in the other extreme too, right?

1:21:57

Yeah. You know, that that everyone's.

1:22:00

basically approved before the 1960s. Not exactly

1:22:02

true either. No.

1:22:05

And one of the things that

1:22:08

I'm constantly hammering on

1:22:11

in everything that I publish, and

1:22:13

also just anytime people ask

1:22:15

me about received ideas about

1:22:17

medieval Europe, one of the

1:22:20

things I always, always have to remind everyone

1:22:22

is keep in mind that

1:22:24

a lot of the histories that we are

1:22:26

reading today do not come

1:22:28

from the medieval period. They come from

1:22:30

the 19th century. Right. And they come

1:22:32

from Victorian England. And

1:22:35

Victorian England had mad hang-ups

1:22:37

about sex. And

1:22:40

they take those hang-ups and

1:22:43

they project them. And what period, what

1:22:45

are the dates we're talking about with

1:22:47

Victorian England? Victorian England is like

1:22:49

the 1847 to 1901. I believe

1:22:52

it's the

1:22:54

exact reign of Queen Victoria. But

1:22:56

I think it was 1847 to

1:22:58

1901. I'm a little unclear on the early section, but I know that's not

1:23:00

what I'm talking about.

1:23:03

It gives us a general idea.

1:23:06

Yeah. So general idea, but you're talking about the

1:23:08

bulk of the 19th century. You're talking about

1:23:11

the industrial realm, like the real

1:23:13

rise of the industrial revolution, the

1:23:15

height of the British Empire. And

1:23:18

it's worth to be in mind that there

1:23:20

were a lot of political reasons to frame

1:23:22

the middle ages the way they did.