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1:39

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1:41

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2:51

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2:53

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2:56

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2:58

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3:01

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3:03

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3:05

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3:08

And if you're building something and you need advice,

3:10

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3:12

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3:14

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3:43

we'll put all this info in the podcast description.

3:46

Alright, let's get to it. Nice

3:49

to meet this week, one of our very first

3:51

guests on the show, Gary Erickson,

3:54

Founder of: Cliff Bar. Gary Erickson, welcome

3:56

back to the show. It's so awesome

3:59

to have you. The back and take your guy.

4:02

I'm scary when you are on the

4:04

show you and your partner kid or

4:06

still the owners of Clif Bar at

4:09

the time. Ah, those your employees also

4:11

owned a significant chunk aren't in. And

4:13

twenty twenty two after thirty years you

4:15

sold. It wasn't and and I know

4:18

that in that time has that over

4:20

this thirty years did gas field the

4:22

tons of acquisition operas need to find

4:25

some of them off. And

4:27

in fact, ah, I think that listeners

4:29

who remember. Who Hurts Represent Remember. Quite

4:32

emotional moment in our conversation when you talked

4:34

about walking away the first time you had

4:36

knocked acquisition offer and you to come up

4:39

with a money to buy out your first

4:41

partner. Yeah. I still

4:43

have. Known as

4:45

nightmares. Of what if

4:48

I would have sold the company in

4:50

two thousand? Yeah, that was

4:52

after only eight years in business, which

4:54

is a long time, but I can't

4:57

even describe the exponential. Growth.

4:59

And on. Good.

5:02

Things we were able to pull off

5:04

over the next one. twenty two years.

5:06

Yeah. and if we would have sold

5:08

it, yeah, I probably I'd be fine.

5:10

I'm happy anyway. I'm happy living in

5:12

a garage like Ice they do demonstrates.

5:15

I did I do know which I

5:17

said what's your bikes as I which

5:19

I did before I met my wife

5:21

and I guess. I'm

5:24

just so thankful that dumb weed but

5:27

we. We escaped that moment and went

5:29

with the gut reaction in the heart

5:31

and both of us decided this is

5:33

what we're gonna do and we did

5:35

a for twenty two more years and

5:37

you turned it into one of the

5:39

biggest energy bar brands on earth. One

5:41

of the things that I I love

5:43

about how you started Clif Bar with

5:45

with the initial you focused on a

5:47

community of people that you were a

5:49

part of which in your case of

5:52

cyclists, you're an avid cyclist. You go,

5:54

I know, you do these loans

5:56

cycling ships are europe and italy

5:58

multiple times a year You

6:00

started by getting the product into their

6:03

hands, into cyclists' hands. Was

6:05

that critical, do you think, to Cliff

6:07

Bar's eventual success? It

6:10

was the path to success, for

6:12

sure. Many ways to say

6:14

that, but that's how I feel right

6:16

now. I think the

6:18

two sports that I was deeply

6:20

involved in were, well, three, actually.

6:24

Cycling, I did some triathlons before

6:26

that, and then I climbed

6:28

since... At that

6:30

point, I was about into 20 years of climbing. So

6:33

I went to each of those groups and would

6:35

just pass out bars. I knew

6:38

I had Tiger by the Tail

6:40

when I was able to

6:42

go to multiple, either climbing crags or

6:44

bike races, and just literally hand out

6:46

the bars out of my car, and

6:49

for free. So

6:51

I take this, and their reaction sold it to me,

6:53

and then from there on, it was just, as

6:55

I say, hang on to the reins from

6:58

year one to...we never did not grow for 30

7:00

years. And

7:03

what started out with a

7:05

small group of people, cyclists,

7:07

triathletes, climbers, eventually became a

7:10

mass consumer product with

7:12

moms and kids and people on the go

7:15

and people going to the gym and people

7:17

just getting some energy. But it

7:20

really...it's interesting, because so...I think

7:23

a lot of really great products start that way. They

7:25

find a small, narrow

7:28

group of people who

7:31

love it, and then from

7:34

there, that group helps to grow it

7:36

out into something bigger. You

7:38

have to have that foundation first, and then from there

7:40

you go out. If you're going to try to go

7:42

mass market, you

7:44

have to have so much funding to be able to do

7:46

that, and chances are it's not going to work, because you've

7:48

got to build that base. Yeah. Well,

7:50

Gary, so you ready to take a call? Yes,

7:53

let's go. All right, let's go. First caller on

7:55

the line, I think it's James. James, are you

7:57

there? I am here. James,

8:00

introduce yourself. Tell us the name of your

8:02

businesses and where you live. I'm

8:05

calling in from LA, Los Angeles,

8:07

actually from the Tech Stars Accelerator

8:09

Program Podcast Studio. I'm

8:12

representing Stope Plastics and

8:14

Opolis Optics. We transform

8:16

ocean waste plastic into

8:18

sustainable performance plastic. And

8:21

we're making everything from adventure gear to

8:23

luxury hard goods. And tell

8:25

me what your question is for us. Yeah,

8:28

sure. How did you cut through the noise

8:30

when building Cliffs Bar and effectively

8:33

communicate your product's unique benefits in

8:35

a way that resonated with consumers

8:37

and made them choose your product

8:39

over the competition? All

8:41

right. We're going to get to your question

8:43

and to Gary's answers in a moment. But

8:45

if you don't mind, indulge me. I have

8:47

some questions for you first. So

8:50

you – so your company is called

8:52

Stoked Plastics. And

8:54

you basically use recycled plastics to

8:57

make things like sunglasses and ski

8:59

goggles. Is that right? Yeah.

9:02

So our specific or unique niche

9:04

is that we use water bottles,

9:06

ocean bound and ocean found. Okay.

9:09

So just to be clear, you've got Stoked

9:11

Plastics, which is the technology company that makes

9:13

this recycled material. And

9:15

then you create a separate

9:18

brand called Opolis, which makes

9:21

sunglasses and ski goggles

9:23

using the Stoked Plastics

9:25

technology. Correct. And we

9:27

started off making, you know,

9:29

sunglasses and goggles. But now

9:31

we're doing prototypes for buckles

9:33

and trims and coolers

9:35

and really anything that uses

9:38

a high density of our

9:40

pet or PET in manufacturing.

9:43

Yeah. And now I'm understanding a little bit more.

9:45

So when you look 10 years from now, is

9:49

Stoked Plastics the material supplier

9:51

of this great plastic that

9:53

you're providing? Is that going to be 98%

9:56

of the business? And Opolis is there

9:58

as a kind of – grounding thing

10:00

or signature or you know the other way around. So

10:03

Opolis Optics at this point is almost

10:05

our proof of concept for stoke plastic

10:08

about the capabilities that we have through

10:10

our IP but essentially we

10:12

would love to replace all virgin pet

10:15

with with our our stoke plastic

10:17

IP for us and we want

10:19

companies and brands to be able

10:22

to use our stoke plastic in

10:24

their manufacturing and I have our

10:26

icon right there so when consumers

10:28

are shopping they know that it's

10:30

affiliated with sustainability, circularity and performance.

10:33

It's a really interesting idea

10:36

because it's your vertically integrated business

10:39

from the get-go. I mean you you manufacture

10:41

your own material and then you make your

10:43

own products and essentially what you're saying is

10:45

by showing how it can be used in

10:47

your products the hope is that other

10:50

brands will just buy stoked plastics.

10:52

You will continue to make sunglasses

10:54

and ski goggles but

10:56

really it's stoked it's the plastic material

10:58

that you'd like everyone

11:00

to use. Yeah that's the impact

11:03

that's the change that we want to

11:05

kind of motivate. When we

11:07

first came up with the IP you guys

11:09

no one wanted to touch us. I was

11:11

a former US government contractor we didn't really

11:13

have a foot in the door

11:15

in the outdoor industry so we're like look no

11:18

one's gonna buy it let's go

11:20

create our own product and see

11:22

how it resonates within the outdoor

11:24

space and beyond. Put

11:27

on my finance hat cost

11:31

of goods a pound of a

11:33

pound of your stoke plastic versus

11:36

your same use for same

11:39

sunglasses or whatever. Sure that's a great

11:41

question and one we get a lot so yeah

11:44

comparative to the our pet that you can

11:47

currently buy on the market ours

11:49

is about 10% more

11:51

than that but

11:54

because of our high recyclability grade

11:56

you know and economies of scale

11:58

we can hit ESG talk a

12:00

lot quicker for companies that are trying to

12:02

meet those targets. Yeah. Here's

12:05

an off the cuff idea. Thinking

12:08

about that idea. I'll get my pen and paper.

12:12

So I think in

12:14

food, organic is stoked

12:16

plastics. Like look, it's going

12:19

to be a hard time sometimes to convince the

12:21

CFO of company to buy. But if you could

12:23

build this to be like the

12:25

organic of plastic, then... That's where

12:28

you can justify the price point.

12:30

Yeah, you've got to justify the price

12:32

point. No, I like that spin on

12:34

just using organic because that

12:37

makes people feel good and they know they're

12:39

paying more money. Yeah, it's a certification. Oh,

12:41

yeah, of course. James,

12:46

just like curiosity, how have sales been so far?

12:48

Well, I'll just say this. So

12:51

we've got enough sales where funds

12:53

and investors are interested in us.

12:57

I can't make a livelihood off

12:59

of it. Not yet, yeah. Not

13:01

yet. But after four years of

13:03

spending a lot of money, and this kind of

13:05

goes into my question to Gary, on

13:07

educating the marketplace on the difference

13:09

between what we're putting in our

13:12

sunglasses and goggles and what others

13:14

are not. And

13:16

that is just, as you guys know,

13:18

it's just been this huge PR and

13:21

marketing effort that is time intensive and

13:23

expensive. So your question

13:25

was about breaking through, right? And

13:28

your question for Gary is, why should somebody

13:30

to Clif Bar versus a competitor snack, you

13:32

know, which you're trying to figure out

13:34

how do we get people to get educated on what

13:37

we're offering? Gary, where do you... Where would

13:39

you even start? No, boy. This

13:41

tough one has changed over the last 30

13:43

years. It's changed so much. I'll

13:47

start with our story. In 1992, it

13:51

was really only Power Bar, and

13:53

a few bars had come out during

13:55

that time, but they were kind of like they

13:58

took the Power Bar ingredients and they added... You

14:00

know a little more vanilla or they you know a

14:02

little more peanut butter or something. We

14:04

created a completely different product Okay, and

14:06

you're you're you're kind of

14:09

like that. You're kind of not like you're

14:11

you're there's so many sunglass companies I don't

14:14

have to tell you and There's

14:16

some beautiful designs out there and all these companies But

14:18

you know, what is the difference and we had this

14:20

radically did we had to educate people that it is

14:22

an energy bar It just tastes better And

14:25

so we sampled a lot which was that

14:28

was instant sale But you can't

14:30

get to everybody so we did some print ads and

14:32

we did a print ad called It's your body you

14:34

decide and it was

14:36

going directly after power bar And in five days

14:38

we had a lawsuit against things sued you guys,

14:40

but that lawsuit actually was a Blessing

14:43

in disguise right Gary because it got you

14:45

all this attention You

14:48

took the words out of my story. Yeah Sorry,

14:52

no, I'm glad you did because it's so

14:54

it's people don't realize that sometimes It

14:57

might be what you want and you know, so

14:59

I and I think people are afraid to attack competition

15:01

So, you know my question back to you would

15:03

be like do you pick the number

15:05

one? competitor that you can grab or

15:07

do you do them all together and You

15:12

know, do you go after them and

15:14

create a super aggressive Campaign

15:17

that gets you PR because back then

15:19

there was no PR as per

15:21

se but it was usually oh in

15:23

in a retail magazine I wrote a trade magazine,

15:25

you know cliff bar gets sued by a

15:27

power bar We're like, thank you and guys

15:29

right like then all these bike shops are like,

15:31

well, let's just try it I mean

15:34

gosh and they did we had

15:36

700 accounts in like months and

15:38

our goal sounds very aggressive,

15:40

but we're our goal is to put them out of business and

15:43

For the first 10 to 15 years

15:45

our people were like we are going

15:48

to just go after their market share

15:50

Everywhere we could and so that's

15:53

how you tell people you're different You've got

15:55

to show the difference between what everybody's doing

15:57

and you're not doing and that you can't

15:59

be better Nashville or shy about it. You got it. That's

16:02

my opinion. Yeah, you know, it's

16:04

kind of cool It's like you could have you

16:06

could basically take a competitor sunglasses and just show

16:08

a pile of plastic and say this

16:11

becomes this Yeah, right Here

16:16

took the design right out of my head our

16:18

heads we're looking for some marketing guy all

16:21

my 800 numbers and Gary

16:25

how important is Like

16:28

athlete influencer association

16:30

with with with brand voice brand identity

16:32

It was it was in our mix

16:35

always and we still have you know

16:37

World-class athletes with clip bar stickers on

16:39

their helmets and like ski racing You

16:42

know, you're you're in the skiing because

16:44

I saw your goggles, you know Bryce

16:47

Bennett who won a World Cup race this

16:49

year he gets in the start line You

16:51

see this big red sticker and then he

16:53

crosses the finish line and he wins and

16:55

he literally points to the clip bar Sticker

16:57

on his helmet like holy crap that is

16:59

worth so much It

17:02

doesn't get better than that and so I a hundred

17:04

percent without having to go on and

17:06

on about it Yes, we we've always

17:08

had athletes from day one Endorsing

17:11

our product and they're super legit They're not

17:13

just celebrities who you know look good and

17:16

you know, they they could choose anything with

17:18

these people used our product for

17:20

function and for quality and

17:22

for and believing in our story I

17:25

think that's a key point Gary is that There

17:28

will be some consumers who are attracted

17:30

to to the the story and the

17:32

recycled aspect of it

17:34

But I think most people are gonna want about

17:36

the function they're gonna want to know why this

17:38

is better And I think this that

17:40

having an athlete having

17:42

a you know I think like an Alex

17:45

Honnold or an outdoor person, you know somebody

17:47

or a Michaela Schiff and wearing the Guggs

17:49

ski goggles I'm not you know, they're probably

17:51

already But

17:53

but but you think about you think about the shoe

17:55

brand on right which were worth it I tell that

17:58

story in the show. I mean that Roger Federer supercharge

18:00

that brand because all of a

18:02

sudden Roger Federer is wearing ons and people are

18:04

like what is that Roger Federer they must be

18:06

amazing people need

18:09

to understand because the majority

18:11

people are gonna buy it because they look good

18:13

and they're functional not because they're recycled yeah

18:16

and I promise to do this I'm

18:18

gonna get some but I'm paying retail buddy

18:20

I'm going online and I think that's my

18:22

my gig I pay retail that's fine with

18:24

me that's fine with me

18:26

hey Gary Erickson wearing opolis it's that's

18:28

a big deal that's a huge a

18:30

lot of people are gonna be like

18:32

what is Gary wearing okay I just

18:34

resigned from the World Cup so I

18:36

don't think up there

18:38

with how I built this and Gary

18:40

Erickson wearing our eyewear that would be

18:43

cool James thank you so much for

18:45

calling in good luck we're gonna be following

18:47

your progress and and we'll catch

18:49

up with you maybe you'll be back on the show I

18:52

hope so you guys guy I've been listening to

18:54

you for four years you've got me through a

18:56

lot of ups and downs and Gary you've gotten

18:58

me through a lot of hikes snowboard

19:01

trips surf trips through your

19:03

bars I really appreciate the time and thoughts James

19:05

thanks a lot and I hope we get to

19:07

catch up more I'd like to you know catch

19:10

up one-on-one if we can someday just to check

19:12

it out I'd love that thank you guys all right

19:14

take care Gary

19:17

I mean this is a complex business but I

19:19

think the idea of producing the

19:21

material and turning into a

19:23

products is a kind of a cool idea it's

19:25

super innovative I mean he's gone from zero

19:28

to vertically integrating his business like

19:31

right away yeah there

19:34

there are a lot of ingredients

19:36

and materials out there that

19:39

are like what he's doing but they're more purely

19:41

functional like a better plastic or

19:43

a better kevlar

19:46

for example or carbon fiber

19:48

you know radically changed

19:50

the bike industry but there's

19:52

no patent on carbon fiber and

19:54

everybody's doing carbon fiber there's so

19:56

I think he's got the advantage if they

19:58

get the IP on that And it's

20:02

got to be functional, and it looks like it

20:04

is very functional. At

20:06

the same time, it's got that property that, you

20:08

know, it's where everything is moving towards more sustainable.

20:11

Yeah, totally. Gary,

20:13

we're going to take a quick

20:15

break, but when we come back,

20:17

a co-op of artisans competing with

20:19

giants like Etsy, stay with

20:22

us. I'm Guy Roz, and you're listening to the Advice Line

20:24

right here on How I Built This Lab. On

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24:46

Hey, welcome back to the advice line here

24:48

on how I built this lab. I'm Guy

24:50

Roz and I'm with Gary Erickson. Gary,

24:54

market share is obviously super

24:56

important, right? Especially in a crowded

24:58

space and as more and more

25:01

competitors started to get into the

25:03

energy bar space, how

25:05

were you able to fend off the competition and

25:07

stay ahead? Like what were some of

25:10

the strategies that worked? I

25:12

would argue that we were built through Graphspace marketing.

25:15

You know, we did some print ads

25:17

at the beginning, which did put

25:19

us on the map. But Kit

25:22

and I would fly all over the country and

25:25

be cutting up bars and thousands of

25:27

pieces of bars just at these marathons.

25:29

It was so hard. And

25:32

then we started hiring people to do that for us.

25:34

We had a team of 25 people around the country

25:36

and then they had local people that they would hire

25:38

for the weekend events. And I

25:40

really think that's what put us on the map. But our

25:42

product was inexpensive enough where

25:44

we could actually give out whole bars and

25:46

they could experience that. And then the next thing you know, they're buying 12,

25:49

24 and hundreds. We

25:52

built a lot of loyal, I mean, we

25:54

have such loyalty with a

25:56

small group of people that buy the majority of

25:58

our product. Okay,

26:01

Listen on a call and. We. Like know what

26:03

he say no one I guess salary

26:06

is on the line. Hello! Valerie

26:08

Hello hello welcome to the show

26:10

On Please introduce yourself Toaster for

26:12

your first last name. What the

26:14

name, your businesses and where you

26:16

live. My. Name is Valerie

26:18

Thankless and I'm representing artisans

26:20

cooperatives and I'm calling from

26:22

the beautiful North Oregon coast.

26:24

Nice. Oh it's is a beautiful place

26:27

a case of and butcher person. So.

26:29

We have almost no funds that

26:31

strong bottom up community ownership. How

26:33

do we break into a market

26:35

space that is filled with giants

26:37

like at sea. And Amazon moved to

26:39

the Giants. Okay we've we've would certainly

26:42

told this he story on the show.

26:44

First of all tell us a little

26:46

bit about about your business about Artisans

26:48

Cooperative. What is it would you do.

26:51

Yeah. Artisans Cooperatives is a co

26:53

op alternative. The At see. What?

26:55

We're growing an online handmade

26:58

marketplace for crafters, makers, and

27:00

artists. Owned. And managed by the

27:02

people who love it. As a cooperate

27:04

of Leon business for I'm looking at the

27:06

website now and so a First of all,

27:08

What? What's the problem with Etsy? Why did

27:11

you Because it seems like you aren't really

27:13

is is competing with Se. But. What

27:15

What prompted you to to start

27:18

this? Well. I.

27:20

It's easier for me to answer

27:22

in some ways from a personal

27:24

point of view because I'm one

27:26

half of the leather crafting business,

27:28

a small husband and wife leather

27:30

grafting business that we started on

27:32

Etsy in two thousand and Nine.

27:34

So we'd no se very well

27:36

and we're still on Etsy and

27:38

they are a great option to

27:40

has in your portfolio as a

27:42

small artist or maker. And but

27:44

over the years they've changed a

27:46

lot. You know, starting in I

27:48

think Twenty Twelve. But. he started

27:51

growing much bigger twenty sustained the

27:53

went to and i pl and

27:55

sellers started becoming i would say

27:57

the product as much as he

27:59

often the way that Etsy is making

28:01

revenue. So this all really

28:03

got started when they increased their fees

28:05

a second time by 30% in 2022.

28:08

And they announced that fee increase in

28:10

the same week that they announced

28:14

record profits. And that

28:16

was just something that struck a lot of

28:19

small makers and artists who rely on this

28:21

income kind of struck a nerve. And

28:25

so it kind of spontaneously organized

28:27

into a protest online through media,

28:29

which I got involved,

28:32

it was called the Etsy strike. And

28:34

thousands of shops took their

28:36

listings off of the site for a week

28:38

and protest. And it actually

28:41

caught some pretty good mainstream attention, but

28:43

didn't change the fact that the fees

28:45

were going up again. It's at the

28:47

point where a sales commission might vary

28:49

anywhere from 10% to

28:51

40% per sale. And you won't

28:53

really know what that is until the sale happens. And

28:57

how do you how do you differ from

28:59

Etsy? Like you're charged presumably you're charging much

29:01

lower fees to your sellers? Not

29:04

necessarily. No, the

29:06

big difference is that we're owned

29:08

and operated or owned by the

29:10

members themselves. So a cooperative is

29:13

a member owned business that's organized

29:15

on a principle of one member one vote.

29:19

So we have a multi

29:21

stakeholder cooperative, which means that the

29:23

artisans themselves can be owners of

29:25

the business and the shoppers or

29:27

any general supporter can become an owner

29:30

of the business, which means they get

29:32

governance rights, they get a vote, and they get

29:34

to have a say in how things are run. And

29:36

they get financial rights so that when we have

29:38

profits, the dividends are just so good to cut among

29:41

the people. Yeah. How many artisans do

29:43

you now have involved? We

29:45

have a little over 300 members now.

29:47

Yeah. And we have about I

29:49

think 200 shops on our marketplace. Okay,

29:53

so Valerie, you brought

29:55

us this question about you've got say

29:57

almost no funds to but you've got a strong

30:00

bottom-up community, how

30:02

do you break into a marketplace

30:04

kind of dominated by Amazon,

30:07

Etsy, eBay, and other massive

30:09

retailers? Gary, you want to take

30:11

the first crack at this one? Oh

30:13

man, this is a tough one. Well, you've got

30:16

a real targeted competitor. You would

30:18

call Etsy a competitor, is that correct? Yes,

30:21

although we're not necessarily trying to replace Etsy.

30:23

If we could get the 1% of artisans

30:26

who are looking for

30:28

alternatives and the consumers who

30:30

are looking for ethical options,

30:33

I think that's a great starting

30:35

place. So the

30:37

answer is yes, you're a competitor. You

30:40

just don't want to say it. So

30:43

yeah, we used to say that at the beginning when

30:45

we at Clifffire, like if we could just get 10%

30:47

of their business or

30:50

20% of their business, I'll be set for

30:52

life, and that would be like, we'd be

30:54

revenue of a million dollars and

30:57

little did we know that we far surpassed

30:59

that. So yeah, you could target that. Don't be

31:02

shy about that. Is

31:05

there a place where you would feel

31:07

like if we got here, then we've

31:10

got momentum and we're able

31:12

to sustain our business for the long

31:14

haul? Like how far are you from

31:16

there right now? That's a great

31:19

question. I think that's one

31:21

of the special challenges we have in trying to build

31:23

a marketplace is that we're in a bit of a

31:25

chicken or an egg situation. We need enough

31:28

artisans to provide good consumer choice for the

31:30

shoppers who are coming on so they have

31:33

things to sort through and define what they're

31:35

looking for, but we need enough customers to

31:37

make it worthwhile for artisans to want to

31:39

sign up. And so I hope that we're

31:42

growing both in step with each other in

31:44

a balanced way. We're

31:47

not there yet. We just started. We

31:49

launched our beta marketplace with existing tech

31:52

in October of this year,

31:54

so six months ago. And I

31:56

would say we're probably, you know,

31:59

at least... half

32:01

of where I'd want to be. So we'd

32:04

start feeling like we were getting there. And

32:07

I think about, you know, it's really interesting because

32:09

we've done a whole series on the show recently

32:11

about content creators and the business

32:13

of content creation. And you know, ten years

32:15

ago was in order to

32:18

reach mass scale in media, you had to

32:20

be on CNN or, you know, be at

32:22

a major media organization today. You could be

32:24

some dude with a YouTube channel and reach

32:26

50 million subscribers, right? And so what's interesting

32:28

about how social media platforms work now is

32:31

that they want to attract

32:33

all these creators, right? So for

32:35

a long time it was YouTube where they were

32:37

trying to get onto because YouTube paid the most. And

32:40

then they went to TikTok. And now a

32:42

lot of people are migrating to Snapchat. Now

32:44

they all use all of them, but these

32:46

different platforms offer different incentives. And now it's

32:49

getting me to my question for you, which

32:51

is, is there a world where

32:53

you could offer an incentive that

32:55

is so good, you know,

32:57

like no fees for the first

32:59

year or something

33:02

radical where that kind

33:04

of message spreads among crafters?

33:06

Because there are craft fairs

33:09

all over the country. Crafters

33:11

talk to each other. You guys have a Discord channel, I

33:14

see. Is there some kind

33:16

of incentive that you are

33:18

able to offer to bring this critical

33:21

mass in? That's a

33:23

really good question. I absolutely

33:26

think that we could come up with

33:28

such an offer if we

33:30

could find the right audience and the right

33:32

moment to share it. But

33:34

I do think one of the things we've had a

33:36

challenge with being on a platform is that we don't

33:38

have a lot of ways to connect with other artisans

33:41

other than at like craft fairs and things like that

33:43

because places like Etsy control

33:46

the narrative and control their forums. Yeah,

33:48

but you... Right, that's right.

33:50

And for you to control the narrative, you've got

33:52

to give your members the tools

33:54

and make it easy for them, right? I mean,

33:56

you've got 300 members. Each

33:59

of those members... members is on social media.

34:01

I mean, they may not have hundreds

34:03

of thousands of followers, but they might

34:05

have hundreds or thousands on

34:08

their social media. And I wonder

34:10

whether you can leverage

34:12

your community in a better way

34:14

to have them promote what you're doing. I

34:17

think our members are not only committed, they're

34:20

literally invested. They're co-op

34:22

member owners. They've invested in this company

34:24

and we're all equal owners

34:26

of it together. It

34:28

brings up an interesting point that I hadn't

34:30

fully thought through, which is that artisans have

34:34

people who are just starting their careers, people

34:36

who are doing it just for fun, and

34:38

then people like me and

34:40

my partner who do this full-time for

34:42

a living. Everybody comes

34:44

with a different set of

34:47

skills and a different background.

34:49

Using everybody's strengths where they are

34:51

makes a lot of sense. Valerie,

34:55

once people come onto your site for

34:58

the first time and maybe they buy something, do

35:01

you got them? Do

35:03

they come back? They're like, wow,

35:05

I never thought this existed. This

35:07

is really different. I think

35:09

we've had repeat customers

35:13

already. In our six months of operating,

35:16

I think one of the ways that

35:18

we try to encourage that is through

35:20

email campaigns and trying to make people

35:22

aware of the variety of things on

35:24

our platform, everything from wooden coasters

35:26

to hand-woven silk shawls. There

35:29

is such a wide variety

35:31

of products and that's the

35:33

treasure hunt of it. One

35:38

of the things that I've noticed, I'm

35:40

going to give you some feedback on

35:42

this. I know the site's early. It's

35:44

still in beta form, but there's too

35:46

much stuff. There's join the member for

35:48

Artisans Handmade. There's all these drop-down things.

35:51

What I think Etsy does well and what

35:53

I think you could do really well is

35:55

they just have pictures of different categories. You

35:57

have some of that, but Gary, I know

35:59

Gary, is a cyclist? And

36:01

is there a world where you've got like people

36:04

who love cycling or you know, you've

36:06

got clothing and accessories, arts and crafts, but

36:08

could you break that down even further like

36:11

beanies or games

36:13

instead of like personal care and

36:15

leisure like domino lovers? I

36:17

mean, you don't have to get like

36:20

super, super like micro niche, but you

36:22

could get kind of niche. And you

36:25

know, I understand you guys don't have

36:27

massive budgets, but you're working with artists.

36:29

I mean, I know you give a

36:31

lot of time in your group to really

36:33

kind of think a bit more

36:36

intentionally about the design of the website to make

36:38

it a little to make it pop a little

36:40

bit more. You know what I mean, Gary? I

36:43

like that a lot. And I like also that

36:45

you're, you're trying

36:47

to move toward something that

36:49

Etsy isn't doing on their website

36:51

or with their product line or

36:53

whatever is available. I mean,

36:56

you know, there, okay, you could go to

36:58

if you want to differentiate, you know, it

37:00

could be your headline, you know, you may

37:02

not find this on Etsy. Yeah,

37:05

you may not you want me, you may not want to

37:07

say you won't find this because maybe you

37:09

will. But you could say you may not find this

37:11

on Etsy that would give them like, well, there maybe

37:13

there's other stuff on here, I won't find an Etsy.

37:16

And because you've got to create that

37:18

you can't be an Etsy with better

37:21

values. Yeah, you got to be

37:23

at sea with a different product. I'm

37:25

telling you, I agree. I'm just spitballing here. But

37:27

maybe think of a different way of categorizing what

37:30

you offer. And you focus

37:32

on the things that people love, or might,

37:34

you know, be attracted to. So here's a

37:36

question that follows that, I

37:38

hope perfectly is,

37:40

how many people come to this and

37:43

buy a gift versus buying

37:45

something for themselves? That's

37:48

a great question. I would say, so

37:51

far, more purchases have

37:54

been personal. And yet that

37:56

contradicts my own experience with my own

37:58

business that we need. you make these

38:00

niche things that are perfect for that one

38:02

person, you know, more a

38:05

higher percentage of them is gifts. I

38:07

also know that Etsy is pushing gifts

38:09

hard right now. Okay, that's that was

38:11

their Super Bowl Ed. Is

38:13

that right? Yes. But

38:16

Gary, your gifts is the way to

38:19

go. It's the way I mean, if you put away, you

38:21

might find something for yourself to you know, like you're going

38:23

for like, I go to wherever wherever

38:25

and buy a gift for my family

38:27

or my wife or something. And then I ended

38:29

up like, this looks I think I want to

38:31

get this for myself. Yeah, I mean, there's

38:34

a lady here who's making knit

38:36

beanies with like an octopus on

38:38

it. I'm seeing that I'm seeing the

38:41

chicken and the lemon. I mean, there's

38:43

like, octopus. There's lots of people have

38:45

octopuses or for example, I'm on

38:47

the same base, the yellow one, right?

38:49

Yeah, yeah. I'm looking for gifts. I'm

38:51

looking for a gift for somebody. And

38:54

I don't even know where to begin.

38:56

You could have a revolving top gifts.

38:59

Top sold gifts. Yeah. And if you just had

39:01

like a headline of like, first thing

39:03

is top 50 gifts. And because if I'm looking

39:06

for a gift, I wouldn't know where to start

39:08

here. Yeah. And I would like to be

39:10

led to something and I

39:12

might come back here and be buying gifts

39:14

all the time. Yeah, because I'm always searching

39:16

for a gift for my friends and family.

39:18

Valerie, I think there's I think I think we're

39:20

on to something. I think we might

39:23

be on to something. You have

39:25

given me so many great ideas and feedback

39:27

and direction. And I absolutely

39:29

love Gary's point to that

39:31

gifts are a great add on and a great

39:33

way to increase our per order amount. Not

39:36

look for yourself and also think about other

39:39

gifts to add on, you know, and and

39:41

back to the back to trying to get

39:43

that message out is wherever

39:45

you get if you could just say a gift

39:47

you may not find on Etsy. Yeah.

39:50

Yeah. Try that. Try that.

39:52

And you know, it's not going out of business. There'll be

39:54

fine. And we love it. Don't worry, by the way, I

39:57

have a show big fans to So

40:00

no, no, no shade as a

40:02

Salary Franklin Artisans Cooperative. Thanks for

40:04

calling and good luck will be

40:07

watching. Awesome! I was delighted to

40:09

be here. Thank you! So. Much while the best

40:11

story. Great job! Gary.

40:14

I'm gets You are. A. Chicken

40:16

Head. A The thing which one

40:18

are know that are the lemon to

40:20

the lemon on the size and knit

40:22

hat. I think that I think you

40:24

live with it or cycling through through

40:26

Italy on your racing bike. With that

40:28

we have to put it over the

40:30

helmets. I can get it over the

40:32

home for over the helmet. Yes are

40:34

A were good. Another quick break. Gary

40:36

only come back and inventors Fluffy.craigs idea.

40:38

Stay with us and Guy Rise and

40:40

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42:22

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42:25

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42:27

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42:29

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42:32

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42:34

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42:37

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42:39

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42:41

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42:43

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42:45

Smart Energy. Stay focused. Hello

42:56

and welcome back to the Advice Line here

42:59

on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy

43:01

Roz. Gary, what do you say? Should we

43:03

go ahead and bring in our last caller?

43:05

Let's go. All right. Hello,

43:08

Elsie. Are you there?

43:10

Can you hear me? Yes, we can.

43:12

Hello, Elsie. Hi. Please

43:14

tell us your name, what your company's called,

43:16

their business, and where you live. Hi,

43:19

Guy. Hi, Gary. Hi,

43:21

Elsie. I'm in

43:24

Denver, Colorado, and

43:27

I started my company in Lily Brush

43:29

14 years ago after I invented

43:33

a pet hair clean-up tool

43:35

that's faster than... I

43:38

started my company in Lily

43:40

Brush 14 years ago after

43:43

I invented a pet hair clean-up

43:45

tool that's faster

43:47

than vacuuming and

43:49

better than sticky rollers

43:52

without creating single-use waste.

43:55

I've since invented four more

43:57

pet hair clean-up products. And

44:00

now we have this incredible

44:02

core group of pet parents

44:04

and professional cleaners who love

44:06

our products. But I'm

44:09

still struggling with

44:11

how to scale up our marketing

44:14

so more people can find us.

44:18

Right. Okay. So before we... So

44:20

you're looking to figure out how to scale

44:22

up to get more people to find you, how

44:24

to do it efficiently. Before

44:27

we get there, let me ask you a couple questions. So a daily brush is...

44:29

So this is a pet hair

44:32

remover for furniture

44:35

and whatever pet hair. I have a beloved pet. I've

44:37

got two cats and a dog. So this is a

44:39

big problem in my house. I have a lot of

44:41

pet hair. I have a

44:43

one cat that is particularly bushy hair. Morty,

44:47

he's a great cat, but he sheds everywhere.

44:52

How is it different than, I don't

44:54

know, roller or other pet brush

44:56

removers? Oh,

44:59

let me count the way. Please tell

45:01

us. Yes. Count them

45:03

out loud. Okay, I will. So

45:06

if you have pets that

45:08

have that very heavy undercoat,

45:11

that soft fluffy stuff that

45:13

sheds all year long, we

45:16

make these fantastic bristled

45:19

products that you

45:22

just brush back and forth across

45:24

the hair. It picks it all

45:26

up. There's

45:28

no sticky roller waste. There's

45:32

no peeling. And it's

45:34

faster than vacuuming. And you just pull the hair

45:36

out and you just toss it in the... It

45:40

stays right on top of the

45:42

bristles. And you just... I

45:44

like to tell people, take the hair

45:46

outside because birds like to use it

45:49

for nests. Wow, that's cool.

45:51

It's like you're recycling like our... like

45:53

gems and plastics. You can go and

45:55

nest for a bird and then your

45:57

cat can go and eat the bird.

46:00

Oh dear. No. How

46:03

did you... Tell me how you started this business

46:05

because I see you started in 2010. What

46:08

were you... I mean, did you

46:10

have a different job? Or are you doing something different in your life

46:12

at that point? I was. It's

46:16

kind of one of those

46:18

crazy stories. Yeah. But I used

46:20

to be a painter. I

46:22

was a portrait and still life artist.

46:26

And in 2009,

46:28

I was a

46:32

single mom and I shoveled

46:34

a driveway full of snow.

46:38

And it caused my widow

46:40

maker artery to dissect

46:45

at the family dinner table. So...

46:48

Wow. After

46:50

I was very

46:52

lucky to wake up the next

46:55

morning. But I

46:58

went to reach for a

47:00

water glass and

47:02

my hands were shaking.

47:05

They were like nervous

47:07

parakeets. I'm sure you can hear

47:09

it in my voice. I have

47:11

now a pretty

47:14

prominent tremor. And

47:16

so I knew

47:19

that morning

47:22

that my painting career

47:24

was over. Wow.

47:26

So, you know,

47:28

I've never looked back.

47:30

I just knew I had to

47:32

find a new career. I

47:35

mean, it's an amazing story because you

47:37

have this, of course, near-death

47:39

experience with the heart attack and

47:42

it completely changes your trajectory. I mean,

47:44

you're a painter. You need still hands,

47:46

but you develop a

47:48

tremor and you have to pivot.

47:51

But it's like it's so... I

47:53

mean, it's one of those weird things.

47:55

It's like that happened and

47:58

that as a result of that. you

48:00

started this thing, right?

48:03

Like this, none of this would have

48:05

happened without that horrible tragedy, but it's

48:07

an amazing kind of turn of

48:09

events. I

48:11

just, that's how

48:13

my life has always been. I've had

48:15

a lot of faith and just followed

48:20

lead. If something happens, you

48:22

just keep going through it.

48:26

I love your website. It's really clear.

48:28

It pops. I like the logo, Lily

48:30

brush, the red, it pops. How did

48:32

you invent this thing? So

48:36

I had to go to rehab for

48:39

my heart and I always

48:41

wear this polar fleece jacket.

48:44

And this little dog, Lily, used

48:46

to enjoy sitting on the couch

48:48

with me. She's an Australian

48:50

Shepherd. She's a very

48:52

fluffy dog. So I'd go to

48:54

rehab with all the other 80 year

48:57

olds. And I was only

48:59

48 when it happened. So

49:02

I'd go and I'd be covered

49:04

in pet hair and it

49:06

was embarrassing. But I looked

49:09

to see if there

49:13

was anything that would take care of

49:15

the pet hair and all they had

49:18

was sticky roller. And I

49:21

hate single

49:23

use products. So,

49:26

but I wasn't allowed to lift

49:28

it back. And so I took the

49:31

sticky roller home and

49:33

I would carry it with me and

49:35

rolled my fleece. And I

49:37

just thought there's got to be a better

49:40

way. And then one day I

49:42

was scrubbing

49:44

around the fixtures in

49:46

my kitchen and Lily

49:49

happened to jump onto the couch in

49:51

front of me and she had muddy

49:53

paws. So I went over with a

49:56

toothbrush and I

49:58

went to wipe the mud off

50:00

of that, off of

50:03

the couch. And I

50:05

noticed that her hair stuck to

50:07

the bristles. And I

50:09

was like, oh, I just

50:11

it was like, oh, so

50:13

I ran upstairs. I

50:15

have two sons. I

50:18

took both their toothbrushes, cut the

50:20

heads off of them. And

50:22

I found this little palm

50:24

sized block of wood in the

50:26

garage. And I super glued these

50:28

three toothbrush heads onto

50:30

mine as well. And

50:35

my kids came home and they found

50:37

me cleaning the whole house with this

50:40

little block of wood with toothbrush heads

50:42

on it. And I'm sure

50:44

they thought I had a stroke. So Elsie, a

50:46

guy has a question. I know this is in

50:48

your head right now, guy. Did

50:50

you keep that prototype? Of

50:53

course. That you've got a that's a

50:55

that's a Smithsonian

50:57

Museum piece. That

51:00

is so awesome.

51:02

Yeah. So Elsie

51:04

obviously is coming with question of how,

51:08

how can she scale this? How can she get the word

51:10

out? How can she grow this thing? She's been doing it

51:12

for since 2010. Yeah.

51:14

Gary, what's your take? I

51:19

need I've got a lot. This is I

51:21

mean, I just got it. I'm so inspired by the story.

51:23

All of it. So

51:26

it's awareness and trial. Now,

51:29

how do you do trial? Question

51:33

do you are you in like Petco or

51:35

any of the you know, pet mart or

51:38

any of those retailers? So

51:40

we're in this.

51:42

I'm very proud of this. We're

51:44

in a container store. That

51:47

was our first big company.

51:49

And it took me a

51:51

long time to get there. We

51:54

are we kill it on

51:56

Amazon, even though after

51:59

like the first year, Alibaba

52:03

just started pumping out

52:06

copies, but cheap copies of

52:08

our products. And

52:11

the thing I hate about the

52:14

products that these guys are

52:16

making that are copying ours is

52:19

that they only last

52:21

for a week or two. I

52:24

built our products to last for

52:27

really a lifetime

52:29

of your pet. I

52:31

mean that's the competitive advantage. Gary makes

52:33

me think of an episode

52:36

we did on TRX Straps with Randy

52:38

Hetrick several years ago because that

52:40

happened right away. All of a sudden,

52:42

all these copycats and they were poor

52:45

quality, but he spent

52:47

and still spends a lot of money suing them.

52:50

And I know you don't have those kinds

52:52

of resources and time, and it's a pain.

52:55

But I feel like a simple fix

52:57

is to emphasize what you

52:59

just said, the original and best, because

53:05

I feel like that is the brand is your

53:08

advantage here. It's

53:14

a tough one, Guy, because

53:17

when I first started talking

53:20

to buyers, they used to kind

53:22

of laugh at me because they

53:24

were like, why would you

53:26

make something that lasts for years and

53:29

years? We don't

53:31

want that. We want the repurchase.

53:33

But the fact that these

53:35

things last so long has

53:37

been kind of one of

53:39

our problems. I wonder whether I think

53:43

about partnerships, right? And

53:47

increasingly, you're seeing collaborations with brands

53:49

and certainly in apparel. Adidas and

53:51

Gucci or Liquid Death does, that's

53:53

not apparel, but they're doing partnerships

53:56

with different kinds of brands like

53:58

Grooming, Men's Grooming, for example. I

54:00

wonder if there's a way for

54:02

you to partner with a

54:06

product that is associated with

54:08

cleaning cars or carpets, something

54:12

like that where they get

54:14

it with that product. I

54:19

think about that too. Like

54:22

a different vacuum, like

54:24

a Bissell or something

54:26

like that. Such

54:30

a great point, guys. Yeah, especially

54:32

a product like Bissell or a

54:34

brand like that that's probably a little

54:36

easier to get to the right person

54:38

there. It's not an Adidas where there's a

54:40

bazillion people pitching them. I don't think a

54:42

lot of people are pitching Bissell for collaboration.

54:44

It could be kind of cool.

54:49

This to me seems like, you know how

54:51

Slim Jim is at the

54:53

checkout counter of every convenience store?

54:56

Like that's basically how

54:59

Slim Jim and now 5-hour Energy is there

55:01

too. I see this as a

55:03

product that's at the checkout of every car wash.

55:07

That would be ideal. I

55:10

do go to the car wash trade

55:13

show. The

55:16

first year I went, I

55:18

thought I'd made a terrible

55:20

mistake because I had

55:22

this little 10-foot booth. I'm

55:25

in this hall with all

55:27

these spinning brushes, bright

55:29

lights. I sort

55:31

of timidly went and started

55:33

doing demos. The

55:35

next thing I knew, my

55:38

booth was three people deep,

55:40

just mobbed for

55:42

three days. When

55:46

Gary talks about

55:50

going and giving away

55:52

product at bike

55:55

events, that resonates

55:57

with me.

56:00

Because I knew I'd

56:02

hit something, but we're

56:06

still just a little tiny

56:08

brand. We're still, you know,

56:10

they talk on Shark Tank,

56:12

they talk about the cockroach

56:14

that people can stomp

56:17

on. We're still that

56:20

little guy. And

56:22

it makes me nervous. It's

56:25

14 years and, you know,

56:27

we're trying so

56:29

hard and we're

56:31

still that little guy. First

56:35

off, don't give up. Okay. I'm an

56:37

effort. Because I think you've got, you

56:39

have something here. I wouldn't even, I'm

56:43

embarrassed that I didn't know your brand before

56:45

this because we've had, you've,

56:47

I've got these sort of sayings about innovation.

56:50

You've solved a problem, Cliff Bart to me

56:52

solved a problem with a better taste

56:54

and energy bar and,

56:56

you know, you're in, it's inventive. It's

56:59

totally original. I mean, how can

57:01

you get more original than using toothbrushes to

57:03

make the first product? And

57:05

it's, it's transformative. You

57:07

know, you're, it's for people that

57:09

have this issue. We, everybody

57:12

that has a dog and a cat pretty

57:14

much has this issue and we all

57:16

want to solve it, but we just are lazy and

57:18

we just, you know, and it's hard and you try

57:20

to vacuum, vacuum doesn't work. And the roly thing doesn't

57:22

work. So there's that. I feel

57:24

like it's a matter of

57:26

time in some ways. This is the kind

57:29

of product that if you could get it

57:31

into the hands of a

57:33

couple of the celebrities who just

57:36

have, you know, who post with their pet all

57:38

the time. Like I think, I don't know if

57:40

Chrissy Teigen has pets, but I just think of

57:42

something like that, you know, like Chrissy Teigen, who's

57:44

like associated with like cooking and a

57:46

beautiful house and like, you just imagine her like,

57:49

Oh my God, this, like, you know, here I

57:51

am brushing this

57:53

off with this thing. I think to get

57:55

to some of those really high end ones,

57:57

you've got to incentivize them. got

58:00

to say something like, look, we're

58:02

trying to scale this and,

58:04

you know, we'd love to partner with you in some

58:06

way. I don't know what that would look like. But to

58:09

me, it's just a matter of like getting it into

58:12

getting it to a place where somebody

58:14

like that, who's a real

58:16

like lifestyle influencer, gets

58:19

people excited about it. Because as Gary

58:21

said, it's a great product. It's just

58:23

a matter of getting it getting

58:26

in front of the right eyeballs. Question,

58:28

how many people are with you in your company?

58:33

There are four of us. Four

58:36

people is pretty lean. Yeah.

58:41

So I love guys idea of

58:43

the retail thing, like at the counter. I

58:46

mean, we've all bought stuff that when we're in

58:48

a store like I never I mean, what's

58:50

that? Oh, okay, I'll buy that. And

58:52

you may have to bring on a sales person that

58:55

you've never thought of needing before

58:57

that can go to the car

59:00

washes and the Walgreens and

59:02

the you know, and Fridays, whatever. Yeah.

59:05

You know, we bootstrapped it.

59:07

So it's been slow growth. Yeah.

59:10

So we've got money in the

59:12

bank. That's awesome. So

59:15

I just, I just have

59:17

to figure out who

59:20

to hire. I'm really into

59:22

giving people a shot. You

59:25

know, show me what you

59:27

got. And, and do your

59:29

best. And let's see. So I get,

59:31

you know, marketing people from

59:34

University of Denver. And

59:37

it was cool, you

59:39

know, two or three years watching

59:41

someone develop. I

59:43

think it's time that we go

59:46

and we find someone who really knows

59:48

what the heck they're doing.

59:51

And we do, we

59:53

do have money to do

59:55

that. I just honestly,

59:58

I I've done this

1:00:00

whole thing. I've flown by the seat of

1:00:03

my pants this whole time.

1:00:05

It's super impressive. And

1:00:08

for the record, I think if

1:00:10

you can do it self-funded, then

1:00:13

you control your destiny. Kit

1:00:15

and I never took a dime

1:00:18

from anybody over our 30 years of

1:00:20

running Cookbar. We never brought on an

1:00:22

equity partner. Yeah. Elsie,

1:00:25

we're gonna be following you and Lily

1:00:28

Brush. And good luck.

1:00:30

Thank you for calling in. I think you've

1:00:33

got something there. And I think in about

1:00:36

six months time from now, if we check in on you

1:00:38

again, you will have hired somebody to

1:00:40

take the load off and hopefully to start

1:00:42

to really do some of that business

1:00:45

expansion that you're not able to do because of the

1:00:47

other stuff you have to focus on. I

1:00:50

hope so. And

1:00:52

Guy and Gary, thank you so

1:00:54

much. I just, you

1:00:56

guys are my heroes.

1:01:00

I'll take it. Well, you're so welcome.

1:01:02

So cool. And thank you. And we're

1:01:04

just starting to roll. So just keep

1:01:06

this momentum going with other people and

1:01:08

keep this conversation going with other people

1:01:11

that can support what we've talked about and

1:01:14

help you take it up a notch or two or

1:01:17

more. Thank you, Elsie. Thanks,

1:01:19

Elsie. All right. Great

1:01:22

job. So I'm ordering one tonight. You're gonna be

1:01:24

saddled with all these products after today, Gary.

1:01:26

I'm solving all kinds of problems today. I'm

1:01:28

gonna get new sunglasses, goggles. What's

1:01:31

all these packages coming to our house? I know.

1:01:34

We're getting ski goggles and I got

1:01:36

a brush and now I've got all

1:01:38

this like these craps. What's going on?

1:01:40

Well, you know, I have, like

1:01:43

all of our friends have animals. I'm probably gonna

1:01:45

order a dozen of these and then pass them

1:01:47

around and then tell them to, see, that's the

1:01:49

other way to do it. You know, this is

1:01:51

a word of mouth product. It's a word of mouth

1:01:53

product. And you could have a brush in

1:01:56

every vehicle you've got, in

1:01:59

every... You know, room you've got,

1:02:01

they're just sitting there because then you don't

1:02:03

have to go, where's that brush? They're

1:02:06

everywhere. Okay, all right. Gary,

1:02:08

thank you so much for coming back on the show.

1:02:10

It's awesome to have you. I'm honored, thank you so

1:02:12

much. Guys, if you have not

1:02:15

heard his story, go back, way back in our

1:02:17

podcast queue, back to like 2016, early 2017, look

1:02:20

for Gary Erickson Cliff Bar. It's

1:02:22

an amazing story. I

1:02:24

still reference it all the time when I talk to people and

1:02:27

give them advice, so check it out. Thank

1:02:29

you everybody for listening to the show this week.

1:02:31

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1:02:33

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1:02:35

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1:03:02

episode was produced by Sam Paulson with music composed

1:03:04

by Ramtine Arablui. It

1:03:06

was edited by John Isabella and our audio engineer

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1:03:11

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real solutions. For more information,

1:04:47

connect with a wealth advisor

1:04:49

today at corrient.com. That's

1:04:52

C-O-R-I-E-N-T.