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And now, on to the show! Hello

4:07

and welcome to How I Built This Lab. I'm

4:10

Guy Roz. So wherever you

4:12

are right now, chances are there

4:14

is a screen within arm's reach.

4:17

Maybe it's a phone or a tablet or

4:19

a smartwatch. And over the past decade,

4:21

we've come to depend on these screens to

4:24

conduct most of the business in our

4:26

lives. Transportation, communication,

4:28

scheduling, entertainment. We

4:31

now do all of this pretty much on

4:33

our screens. But what if you could do

4:35

all of these things without the distraction of

4:38

a screen? Well, that's the

4:40

idea behind the Humane AI pin. It's

4:42

a little square device that can do

4:44

many of the same things as our

4:46

screen devices. Think of it a

4:48

little like an AI assistant. The difference

4:50

is the Humane pin is controlled by

4:52

the sound of your voice. The

4:55

pin has a touchpad, a camera, a

4:57

built-in projector, and it's made to pin

4:59

right to your close with a little

5:01

magnet. The AI pin

5:03

was created by Humane co-founders Imran

5:05

Chaudhry and his wife Bethany Bongiorno.

5:08

Before they got into the world of artificial

5:10

intelligence, the two of them worked at Apple,

5:12

leading the design of some of the very

5:14

screens I was just talking about. Imran

5:17

started their first in the late 1990s

5:19

when working for Apple meant kind of

5:22

being the underdog. Our

5:24

team started by redefining

5:26

what a Mac was, by building

5:28

Mac OS X that just really

5:31

had an eye towards how

5:33

do you actually build a

5:35

new type of computer that was easier

5:38

to use that wouldn't crash.

5:40

Macs used to crash all the time back

5:43

then. That was our boot camp.

5:46

We got to work on things

5:48

like multi-touch, which went on

5:50

to propel things like iPhone

5:53

and iPad and watch. It

5:56

was all stuff that my

5:58

team and I worked on. I mean, of course, the

6:01

famous presentation that Steve Jobs

6:03

gives and says, stylus, you need to stylus,

6:05

right? When you've got five digits on each

6:07

hand, and that's something that you

6:09

worked on. You worked on that touch screen,

6:12

the technology that enabled that. Yeah,

6:14

absolutely. You know, I think that was the

6:17

fundamental unlock for making

6:19

the transition from remote

6:22

interactions from a keyboard and mouse to

6:25

really allowing people to do what we

6:27

call direct manipulation. And that's literally just

6:29

being able to touch the screen and

6:33

have a far more intimate relationship

6:35

with the things that you're really

6:38

using on a day to day basis. Yeah,

6:41

I mean, both of you were at Apple

6:44

at just such an incredibly

6:47

historic time. Bethany, you joined about

6:49

ten years after Imran started. But

6:52

still, I mean, right after the iPhone kind

6:55

of shipped is when you joined.

6:57

And soon, I guess you were kind

7:00

of put in charge as a project

7:02

manager involved with the iPad.

7:05

Yeah, I joined Apple in 2008. And

7:09

I was a

7:11

Blackberry user, I was a PC user. I

7:14

didn't have an iPhone. But

7:16

I had a lot of admiration for what they

7:18

were doing. And a couple

7:20

months after I joined the iPhone

7:22

team, which was pretty small at

7:24

the time still. And still treated

7:26

like a startup within the company

7:29

and had a lot of secrecy

7:31

around what that team was up

7:33

to. A lot of locked

7:36

doors where the teams were meeting and

7:38

doing our work. But a

7:40

couple months after I joined, they asked

7:42

me if I would take on a

7:45

new project. And at the

7:47

time, they couldn't tell

7:49

me what the project was. But that

7:51

it would require that for the next year and

7:53

a half to two years of my life,

7:56

I would have to work many, many hours

7:58

and it would be. really challenging and

8:01

really difficult and it was this new project

8:03

that Steve wanted to do. They

8:05

couldn't tell me what it was but they would need to know

8:07

in 24 hours if I would take it on. And

8:10

so I said yes and walked into a

8:12

room signed an NDA and then they told me

8:14

that I was going to be leading a

8:16

project to build a tablet and

8:18

bring together a group of engineers and work

8:20

really closely with the design team and just

8:22

figure out how we could make it make

8:24

it possible. And that started

8:27

that project for me. It's so

8:29

interesting to me because of course Apple

8:31

is like famously as secretive as like

8:33

the Pentagon, right? And many

8:36

companies talk about like breaking down silos

8:38

and breaking down walls and creating cross-collaboration

8:40

and Apple really took a complete and

8:43

has taken and continues to take a

8:45

completely different approach which is it's very

8:47

siloed. But I wonder having been inside

8:50

it seems like it works

8:52

like there there is method to that madness

8:54

and that and that that kind of secrecy

8:56

is probably necessary or do you think that

8:59

that with some perspective looking back

9:01

on it it's sometimes a little bit

9:03

too much. You

9:05

know there's some advantages you get a

9:08

an amazing amount of focus which

9:10

is good and and I think

9:12

the projects that that I worked

9:14

on were all essentially 1.0 is

9:17

that they turned into something else

9:19

and that really siloed protected space

9:21

allows for those kinds of things

9:24

to happen. I think

9:26

where it becomes difficult is when you

9:28

come out of stealth so

9:30

to speak you start to

9:33

have to really need different

9:35

functions of the organization

9:37

to come in and

9:40

that's where it gets a little messy. Because you don't

9:42

have the relationships. Yeah you

9:44

don't and I think some some of

9:46

us over time and Apple built those

9:48

relationships but in

9:51

in some cases you you end up

9:53

with duplicative work that would build you

9:56

know some animosity and things like that so those are

9:58

those are the things that you have

10:00

to struggle with. Yeah. And essentially,

10:03

Bethany, I'm curious about your perspective, because

10:05

obviously the two of you met at

10:08

Apple and then fell in love and

10:10

got married and now here you are

10:13

today. But when the two of you

10:16

were both at Apple and a couple, did

10:18

you often... Presumably you had to keep what

10:20

you were working on from Imran and vice

10:22

versa. You probably couldn't really talk about what

10:24

you did. It would be like two people

10:26

who worked for the CIA. Well,

10:29

actually we had the

10:31

good fortune that we were building

10:33

basically everything together. There were very

10:36

few things that Imran

10:38

was working on, mainly that I didn't know

10:40

about. For the most part, he knew

10:42

everything I was directly involved

10:44

in. And actually we met on

10:46

my first day at Apple and

10:49

we didn't really like each other

10:51

that much, mainly because we

10:54

were very polar opposites.

10:56

And my job

10:59

was to make sure that things

11:01

were on schedule and on time

11:03

and that everybody was at the

11:05

table and we're having the right

11:07

conversations in Iran's division. My

11:09

job was about

11:12

pushing the boundaries of what's possible

11:14

and what the world really needed

11:16

in that moment. Yeah. And so

11:18

we used to get into quite a few

11:20

arguments actually. And I would

11:23

go up to him and say, Imran, what are

11:25

you doing? We can't do all of this or

11:27

this idea is too big or the team can't

11:29

do it. And he would push back on me

11:31

and say, well, we have to do it. We

11:34

have to make this happen. And have you tried

11:36

this? His favorite line was, have they tried this?

11:38

Have they tried this? And he was always right,

11:40

which was always the really frustrating part

11:43

of it in

11:45

most moments. And so yeah, we

11:47

had the opportunity to build a lot of things

11:50

together, whether it was new Hardware

11:52

and new, totally new product categories.

11:54

Or software, things like FaceTime and

11:57

iMessage, you know, that were really

11:59

complicated. He did things for billions

12:01

of people that involves a lot of

12:03

challenges long the way. And

12:06

twenty sixteen, you both left apple.

12:09

And. Presumably with

12:11

the idea of may be cracked try to create

12:13

something is cells but what was that? The reason

12:15

was it does it feel like. Did.

12:17

You feel like it was time to move

12:19

on. To add to that, you'd have done

12:21

everything you wanted either. Yeah, you know that.

12:24

Equation. Of like why somebody decides

12:26

to move on is always such a

12:28

complicated one. I had an amazing opportunity

12:31

there and was really blessed with the

12:33

things that we are able to achieve

12:35

around that time we were working on

12:37

I phone ten which in and of

12:40

itself is kind of like bit of

12:42

like a Groundhog Day thing. I can

12:44

live at a newer version of that

12:46

of the same thing Yamuna Wheat the

12:49

we definitely worse I'm from new things

12:51

we we we were thinking about but

12:53

would I. Was really into was being

12:55

able to push the limit of computer.

12:58

And. When i

13:00

found for myself was. That.

13:03

The environment had changed a bit and.

13:06

I really need to think about

13:08

where else I'd wanna go. I

13:10

wasn't at all done in terms

13:12

of thinking where where I where

13:14

I wanted to take computer. I

13:17

felt as if I had reached

13:19

my personal name it and Apple

13:21

because everything had and really started

13:23

to mature. Went

13:26

when that to the decide it took to

13:28

leave. Tommy

13:30

a little bit about some of the idea that you

13:32

have. Sought. About things

13:34

that you could do because it wasn't what

13:36

what we are gonna talk about. Humane A

13:38

I wasn't the it original idea you had

13:40

they be there was gonna be like of

13:43

a fitness app or wellness sapper of maternal

13:45

care app. he just had talked about a

13:47

couple of different ideas right. Yeah.

13:49

we we actually started i'd eating

13:52

on a couple of ideas an

13:54

enron said his passion and started

13:56

really digging and seals ai and

13:59

that's that this was in 2017,

14:01

he was very passionate about it. And I

14:04

really started to look into women's

14:06

health. And it was something, the

14:08

other area that Imran and I

14:10

were very interested in, mainly because

14:13

women actually suffer because we were

14:15

never really taught how our bodies

14:17

work. And we don't have the

14:19

right tools to be able

14:22

to care for ourselves ultimately. And so

14:24

we essentially started building two prototypes.

14:26

And we had one in the space of

14:28

women's health. And the other

14:30

was this idea that Imran was pushing around

14:33

a new kind of computer. Imran,

14:37

tell me about that idea that you had in

14:39

mind. What were you

14:41

thinking? Yeah, so

14:44

always was fascinated with AI. And

14:47

when I was in high school, I had

14:49

a job at a computer

14:51

shop where I used to be able

14:54

to get books and magazines and read

14:56

them. And I used

14:59

to read AI journals when I was in high

15:01

school and just be fascinated by that stuff. And

15:05

a lot of it theoretically

15:07

was something that was

15:09

moving into a place of practice

15:11

around that timeframe, 2017 or so.

15:16

And sparked a lot

15:18

of inspiration to say, hey, I actually really want

15:20

to build a new kind of computer, something

15:23

that is really going to help humanize

15:25

the ability to be able

15:28

to interact with AI. And

15:30

around 2017, I was able to

15:32

convince Bethany that if we started

15:35

now, that we would be where we

15:37

needed to be by the time we'd

15:39

be able to actually practice this

15:41

stuff, which is kind of like my

15:43

name. We're

15:46

going to take a quick break. When we come

15:49

back, the dinner tastes that convinced one of the

15:51

inventors of the touch screen to

15:53

go screenless. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raj

15:55

and you're listening to How I Built This

15:57

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welcome back to how I built this lab. I'm Guy

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Roz. So it's 2017,

19:20

which is a really pivotal year

19:22

for AI research and Imran and

19:25

Bethany are thinking about how their

19:27

experience working for Apple might

19:29

help launch their next venture. So,

19:32

all right. So you, you knew that you

19:34

wanted to do something around computing. Now

19:37

you had, I mean, you were

19:39

intimately involved in developing and helping

19:42

to develop your names and patents

19:44

around so many of the

19:46

products we use, my, my Apple watch, my, my

19:50

iPhone, like you're, you're, you're in this

19:52

thing. You had spent so

19:54

much of your career working

19:56

on screens, right? Things that we

19:58

can look at. And so,

20:01

were you, I mean, already back in 2017, were

20:04

you sort of saying a version of this

20:06

to yourself, which is, can I

20:08

make something that doesn't require a screen?

20:11

Were you literally thinking that

20:13

granular? Yeah,

20:16

that's exactly right. Like, how do

20:18

you actually elevate compute? Because, you

20:20

know, I think smartphones are

20:22

great. They're really, really great at

20:24

what they can do now, but they're very

20:27

limited in terms of how much

20:29

more they can do. And if

20:31

you think about if

20:33

they're able to leverage some

20:35

of these multimodal inputs that

20:37

use text and voice and

20:40

sound and image and

20:42

eventually video, you

20:45

need a new kind of computer that

20:47

really allows for you to take advantage

20:49

of that kind of processing. And

20:51

at that point, you

20:54

don't need to use screens the

20:56

same way you need screens, because

20:59

screens confirm everything that you are

21:01

doing, whether you're typing in

21:03

something properly or whether you've tapped the

21:05

right button. But if you can actually

21:08

take that away, take the burden of that away, you

21:11

don't need a screen other than

21:13

something for a lightweight confirmation, which

21:16

is kind of the underpinnings of

21:18

what we've built. Bethany, I

21:20

gather after sort of a year and a

21:22

half of consulting and considering maybe doing something

21:24

in the women's health space, I think around

21:26

2018, you

21:29

both agreed to pursue this. How

21:31

did Emron describe what this product

21:34

could be to you initially?

21:37

Yeah, I had been out for the day and I

21:40

came home and he said, this is what we're gonna

21:42

build. And he pulled out,

21:44

he had made a one pager on

21:46

the computer that basically described the vision

21:48

for this operating system. And

21:51

he said, this is what we need to

21:53

do. And so I said, okay, well, let's

21:55

start it. Let's see, is it possible? And

21:57

I'm the person who definitely questions some time.

22:00

Like, is this technically feasible? Like, are we

22:02

going to be able to do this? What

22:04

are the things that would prevent us from

22:06

being successful? And so, and Imran is always,

22:08

you know, 10 to 100 steps ahead of

22:11

me. So in his head, he already knows

22:13

where we're going and what's possible and what's

22:15

not. We definitely think about things in a

22:17

different way, but that really started it once

22:20

we said, okay, let's build some prototypes now.

22:22

How specific was that one page

22:25

or did it say a

22:27

wearable device in the shape

22:29

of a square with a camera? I mean,

22:31

we'll get there, but how specific was

22:34

it? He had a diagram

22:36

of the device. He had a drawing

22:38

that he had done that looks very

22:40

much like it does today with a

22:42

couple minor exceptions. It

22:44

even had the magnetic

22:47

attachment and also had

22:49

a description of what it would do. Like, here

22:51

are the things that you would do with it.

22:53

Here's what it has, what it doesn't. And I

22:55

remember at the time, having worked on the iPhone

22:57

and having had some experience

22:59

there, my first thought was this is

23:02

impossible to build a phone

23:04

this small and to be a

23:06

standalone device. You know, you're talking about four radios.

23:08

It has to have Bluetooth and Wi-Fi and GPS

23:10

and a pretty powerful chip to

23:13

run what he wanted. So my first

23:16

instinct was to say this is impossible, but I

23:18

also know my husband pretty well. So I said,

23:21

okay, let's give it a go and

23:23

see if we can prove it to

23:25

ourselves that we can rebuild this. Imran,

23:28

at the time in 2018, this is before chat

23:30

GPT, like, in chat GPT, I mean, people are

23:32

using it in so many different ways. Like, I'm

23:34

going to Italy this summer and I was like,

23:37

give me the seven essential restaurants. I need to

23:39

eat that in Rome. And I gave

23:41

it some parameters and it's great. Okay. But

23:43

in 2018, chat GPT wasn't out yet. How

23:49

confident did you feel that within the

23:51

next three years,

23:54

that the things that you wanted this thing

23:56

to do could be done? Pretty

23:59

confident. I used to say this

24:01

thing at Apple, you know, if you can dream

24:03

it and if you can describe it, you

24:06

can make it. And I

24:08

don't think a lot of people like really believe

24:10

that, but if

24:12

you have those parameters in place

24:15

and you understand how you get

24:17

there and how long it's going

24:19

to take, it's at a much

24:21

larger scale than say like a

24:23

chef that imagines a recipe because they

24:26

can taste the notes in their mouth

24:28

as they're imagining things, I

24:31

sort of feel that way with

24:33

this. This is the medium

24:35

I understand the most. So

24:38

when you guys embarked on this project,

24:40

you really went underground. You kind of

24:42

went underground. You had to, I mean,

24:44

you had to operate like Apple, right?

24:46

You had to be super secretive. What

24:48

was that like basically going

24:50

underground until 2023 when

24:53

you kind of came

24:57

out of the underground and revealed this product. I

24:59

mean, how

25:01

did you operate? I mean, was it, you

25:03

couldn't talk about this with anybody outside of the company.

25:06

Yeah, it was a challenge because

25:09

we also needed to hire. So

25:12

we knew that there was a risk

25:14

involved in sharing with people who were

25:16

joining or thinking about joining what we

25:19

were building. And so we actually, you

25:22

know, up until the fall of last

25:24

year, every single person that joined humane

25:26

didn't know what they were joining to

25:29

build. We didn't even tell candidates what

25:31

it was, which

25:33

was kind of a radical decision, but we

25:35

felt it was pretty important

25:37

one to be, to make sure they

25:39

were joining for the right reasons also

25:41

to protect the idea because it was

25:43

still pretty, it's still pretty fragile in

25:45

the early stages, but it was,

25:47

it was a challenge. And I think we also started

25:50

building really in earnest in late,

25:52

late 2018, early 2019. And we were self-funding for

25:57

a good amount of that time up until the summer of 2019. 2019.

26:00

And then at that

26:02

point started to bring a team together and

26:06

only had a couple of months

26:08

really of building together before before

26:10

COVID forced everybody into lockdown. So

26:12

there were a number of challenges along the way that were

26:15

hard for a startup. Tell me what the

26:18

vision was as you continue to kind of

26:20

develop what this product would be. And Ron,

26:22

did you think, okay, I want this to

26:24

be and again, forgive me, because I'm oversimplifying

26:26

and I know it's much more complex, but

26:29

just for the illustrative purposes,

26:31

right? Were you sort of thinking,

26:33

okay, this will be like the best personal assistant? Like,

26:36

how are you thinking about what this

26:38

could do? Yeah, this,

26:41

this was really more like a

26:43

companion or an expert that

26:45

you could take with you.

26:48

And this this piece that would allow you

26:50

to be liberated from

26:52

having to really use a computer in

26:55

a conventional way, you know, I think

26:57

it's it's this always

26:59

with you piece that the moment you

27:01

could think of something, it would

27:04

allow you to act on it.

27:07

And it was just always there. And

27:10

the results that you would get would happen, I

27:12

used to say that at the speed of thought,

27:14

right, and even mundane things

27:17

like text messages would start to

27:19

feel a lot more lightweight

27:22

because of that. I want to just

27:24

describe what what it is for people

27:26

who haven't seen the demos, but it's

27:28

essentially it's a square, a little

27:31

sort of square, maybe this a little bit

27:33

bigger than an Apple watch face, right? Yeah.

27:36

And you can it sticks

27:38

onto your clothing through a magnet. And

27:40

it has a camera so it can

27:42

capture images and it's got a cell

27:44

phone, so you can wear earbuds or

27:47

not. And, and then it has

27:49

a projector that it can project, like

27:51

text messages or other things on your

27:54

hand. So it's got all

27:56

of the more or less the things that your

27:58

phone has, right? but it's

28:01

designed to answer questions.

28:03

Walk me through what was the hardest

28:06

hurdle that you

28:08

had to kind of overcome to

28:10

pack all that in such a small

28:12

little package? Yeah,

28:14

you know, I'd say

28:18

the hardest part was really ensuring

28:20

that everything was gonna be something

28:23

we could fit in. So we

28:25

call that miniaturization, making all the

28:27

components small enough so that

28:29

they sit there, and

28:31

then making sure that they

28:33

work well together. Like the laser

28:35

display has its own challenges. And

28:38

then the wireless power that allows you

28:40

to not have the problems of a

28:43

wearable that when you take it off,

28:45

it's because the battery's dead and

28:47

you can no longer use it. This allows you to keep

28:49

going. Even that alone

28:51

has its own challenges. But

28:53

when you bring them all

28:56

together, that interference, electrical interference,

28:58

that happens, the management

29:00

of the heat and the weight,

29:02

all of the packaging aspects

29:05

and the runtime issues, bringing

29:08

it all together was the

29:10

biggest challenge. Yeah, the

29:13

first time I saw this product, the thing

29:15

that seemed appealing about it to me was

29:17

the absence of a screen, right? I

29:19

think that you were so good,

29:22

you and your colleagues were so good at Apple,

29:24

you designed such good products that it

29:26

enabled many of us to become addicted. And

29:30

it's really distressing because I actually think that

29:32

these products, as incredible as they are, I'm

29:34

holding up an iPhone right now, and

29:37

as life-changing and groundbreaking as they are, have

29:40

also changed our brain chemistry. It's

29:42

changed my attention span, has been

29:44

dramatically affected by this. And as much as

29:46

I try to build in, I had a

29:48

screen time on my phone. My phone turns

29:51

off from six at night until seven in the

29:53

morning. But then I find

29:55

myself like, it's like a smoker trying

29:57

to sneak a cigarette. I find myself

29:59

temporarily. like undoing that on apps. And

30:01

so the idea

30:04

of a screenless thing just

30:06

appeals to me on so many levels.

30:08

And I wonder, how much

30:10

were you motivated by having maybe

30:12

some residual guilt over making something

30:15

so good that it

30:17

actually addicted people? When

30:19

we left Apple, there

30:21

was this moment where we were

30:24

out to dinner and there

30:26

was a family sitting next to us at the dinner

30:28

table. They had three kids, two parents, and all of

30:31

them were on their phone, the

30:33

entire family. And none of them were talking to each other.

30:35

And I remember Amron looked at me

30:37

and he said, man, what we built was

30:40

so incredible. But there

30:42

have been some downsides that feel pretty

30:45

heavy. And I think that, of

30:48

course, that was something we were thinking

30:50

about. And for me, I

30:52

started doing some research on happiness. And

30:54

I was really interested in the question

30:57

of, you know, has it

30:59

made us happier? And what

31:02

is happiness, ultimately? And one

31:04

of the things that I found in my

31:06

research was that people reported higher levels of happiness

31:08

when they were truly present in a moment. And

31:11

I think that was something that Amron and I

31:13

talked a lot about, which is if being

31:16

present truly in a moment does help you,

31:18

you know, feel

31:20

happier, how

31:22

does that play into what we're building? And

31:24

I think what we are building here is

31:26

something that brings a lot of freedom and

31:28

the ability to remain present. Yeah,

31:31

you know, I think the

31:33

things that you were saying, Guy, I

31:35

think are things a lot of people

31:37

struggle with. You've

31:40

got this incredibly powerful

31:42

tool that makes

31:44

you more powerful, or

31:46

in the know, or, you

31:49

know, where or connected all

31:51

of these tangents that

31:53

come off of this tool, that

31:56

they just really enable certain

31:58

characteristics. That is the

32:01

piece that becomes addicting. You

32:03

wanna be more of that. You wanna know more,

32:05

you wanna be able to speak

32:07

out more. And so I

32:09

think the trouble as a designer is

32:12

that you really need

32:14

to be able to be responsible for

32:17

not only the tool, but how the

32:19

tool is used and how the tool

32:22

is sold and how the tool is

32:24

actually safeguarded. Even

32:26

an Apple, I was the

32:28

champion for do not disturb. And

32:30

it was something that I added in because

32:33

I had coexistence

32:36

experiences like the one you described.

32:38

There definitely are some things that

32:40

I wish didn't

32:43

happen. Things like social media

32:45

as a preference. Which exacerbated, I mean,

32:47

that's really, it's not the

32:49

iPhone, it's all the things on the iPhone.

32:52

Yeah, exactly. The iPhone is an amazing tool.

32:54

It's just the things that you're allowing

32:57

on to the tool and doing on the tool

32:59

are the things that are tough. And

33:02

so as Bethany mentioned, we

33:06

certainly started to think

33:08

about some of these things in a very

33:10

different way in terms of how memories are

33:12

formed. When you, even

33:15

the act of taking a photograph

33:17

with a large preview

33:20

takes you out of the

33:22

multi-sensory biology that allows

33:24

you to form a memory. And

33:27

that's because your concentration is

33:29

more on trying to get the image than

33:32

it is on actually experiencing the thing

33:34

you're experiencing. We

33:36

absolutely rely upon our

33:38

devices as much as

33:40

the air we breathe and the electricity that

33:43

runs through our cities and homes. We

33:46

can't really live without it. And

33:49

what Humane is really all about

33:52

is taking a more

33:55

considered look at what is that

33:57

coexistence, so that relationship with technology.

34:01

What should it look like? Something

34:03

we think about all the time. We're

34:07

going to take another quick break, but

34:09

when we come back, how Bethany and

34:11

Imran think about a business model that

34:13

doesn't rely on a traditional app store

34:15

plus the humane AI pen in action.

34:18

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36:07

Hey,

36:10

welcome back to how I built this lab. I'm Guy

36:13

Roz. So my guests

36:15

today are Imran Chaudry and

36:17

Bethany Bongiorno, founders of Humane.

36:19

They described the company's first device

36:21

as a wearable personal assistant and

36:24

they call it the Humane AI

36:26

pin. Bethany, I noticed

36:28

you have one with you. Is

36:31

it possible to just show us

36:34

one thing on it or is that possible? It

36:37

might be hard to hear it. I'm wearing it

36:39

on my Oh, I heard

36:41

that. Yeah, I heard that. Yeah. Can

36:43

you ask it? Can you I don't

36:45

know. Can you ask it to tell you something about me? Sure.

36:49

Let me make sure my devices unlocked.

36:53

Don't get my passcode. What

36:56

time is it? 2.01pm.

36:59

Okay. What's

37:01

the weather like outside? Making sure

37:04

we're ready. Checking weather.

37:06

The current weather in San Francisco

37:09

is partly sunny with a temperature

37:11

of 54 degrees Fahrenheit. Yep.

37:14

Who is Guy Roz? Searching

37:17

for garage. Guy

37:19

Roz is an American journalist and podcaster

37:21

known for his popular podcasts such as

37:23

How I Built This and 10th Radio

37:25

Hour. That's so cool. I

37:28

mean, a very narcissistic question for me to

37:30

have you ask but someone said that movie

37:32

Her, you know, it's like having right. Have

37:35

you ever thought about that parallel? Yeah,

37:37

and the thing about it is that, you

37:40

know, obviously you can ask it very

37:42

tactical things, right? So what's

37:45

weather like outside? What's going on this weekend

37:47

in the city? You

37:49

could also ask it, you

37:52

know, to store memories for you. And it

37:54

really is about being your second brain. How

37:56

does it do that? Yes. So

37:59

for me personally, the way that I

38:01

use it is I ask it my my AI I

38:03

ask it to Remember my

38:05

entire travel itinerary where I'm gonna be

38:07

when the hotel I'm staying at

38:09

is this my room is this So then if somebody

38:12

asks me like hey Bethany, can you do this thing

38:14

on this date? I can say am I gonna be

38:16

in San Francisco on the state right and it tells

38:18

me But it's also

38:21

not just for tactical things, right? I can

38:23

use it as a live journal I can

38:25

have it record things and notes for me

38:27

that I'm thinking about make lists of Places

38:30

I want to go visit or things I

38:32

need to talk to Emron about which is like my one of

38:35

my favorite things So you treat

38:37

it almost like your second brain and and

38:39

what happens is that you create this

38:41

incredible data set? That's very personal and

38:44

it uses it and it can use it

38:46

to then offer suggestions So now that I

38:48

teach my AI everything it should know about

38:50

me and everything it should know about my

38:52

life When I'm in a new

38:54

city and I say hey, I have an hour

38:57

I'm in Tokyo What should I do that's using

38:59

what it knows about me to offer suggestions, right?

39:01

Or if I'm saying hey, I'm in Tokyo and

39:03

I need to buy a gift for Emron What

39:05

should I get him while I'm here now? It's

39:07

using what it knows about Emron that I've

39:09

told it to help me figure out what

39:12

to buy him So this is the power

39:14

of this very personal computer that we've built

39:16

and where is I mean we you

39:18

know Google has Gemini and obviously there's

39:21

chat GPT and there's other platforms

39:23

and operating systems Does

39:25

it use a specific one or will it

39:28

have access to all of it a proprietary

39:30

one? Yeah, so

39:32

we Will be

39:34

using whatever is best based on

39:36

on what it is you're trying

39:39

to do and so our architecture

39:41

allows for Multiple models

39:43

things are made by companies like

39:45

open AI. We have a good

39:47

relationship with the team there and

39:51

smaller models of things that are proprietary

39:53

to us and these will

39:55

change and evolve over time and we are

39:58

able to add these into

40:00

our operating system whenever we

40:02

feel like there's a new

40:04

type of capability. And that's key

40:06

to how we've built not

40:09

only the device, but also the operating

40:11

system that runs underneath it. So

40:14

when you, let's say, talking about it

40:16

as a second brain, a memory tool,

40:18

right? And you

40:20

can imagine just journaling, using it as a journal,

40:23

right? You would say, hey, record, I just want

40:25

to record my thoughts for now. What does it

40:27

then do with that information? Like it's stored somewhere

40:29

in the cloud. And then what

40:31

if you want to access that? Like do you

40:34

say, hey, can you put my life story in

40:36

a book? Like what would you do with that?

40:39

Yeah, so for right now, what you can

40:41

do on the device is you can, with

40:43

your pin, is you can ask it, right?

40:45

So when I have it, remember all

40:47

of my thoughts and all my notes and things I

40:49

need to do and places I need to be. I

40:51

can just speak to it like I would speak to

40:53

a person, right? Like where is

40:55

Bryn's birthday party again? Like, oh, it's at the park.

40:57

You told me it was at the park. Okay. It's

40:59

at Rossi Park. Great. And

41:02

then you also can access all of your

41:04

data on a website. So you have your

41:06

own, think of it like your own Google

41:09

homepage that you go to. That's your

41:11

personal page that has all of your data.

41:13

It has every question you've ever asked it.

41:15

It has every answer it's ever given to

41:17

you. It has every photo and video that

41:20

you've ever taken. All

41:22

of the data we've collected, and you can go in and

41:24

view it. You can also delete

41:26

your data. So let's say there's something that you

41:28

don't want it to be there anymore. You can

41:30

delete every individual query or you

41:32

can delete a certain note that

41:34

you've created. And I

41:36

think our vision has always been that we

41:38

want to create a OS that is

41:41

very personal and that eventually you're building

41:43

this really rich data set that you

41:45

own and it's yours. And

41:47

eventually you can decide where your

41:49

data goes. I don't

41:51

mean to take this to a dark place, but I'm

41:53

sure I'm not the first person whose head went to

41:55

that Black Mirror episode where every

41:58

memory was recorded and then he like. takes

42:00

the chip out of his head. But

42:04

I mean, I see

42:06

incredible value in being able to

42:08

store memories.

42:11

I guess part of me is just worried about

42:13

the security side of that. But we already do

42:15

store a lot of our memories like Google Cloud.

42:19

So that version of that already exists.

42:22

So I don't think it's like totally outrageous

42:24

to be slightly concerned about securing

42:28

this data, right? Yeah,

42:30

you know, I think you

42:32

should be concerned and I wish more people

42:34

were concerned. And it's something that

42:36

we care about a lot. We

42:39

understand how this data has

42:41

been used in the past. We

42:44

believe that everything that you

42:46

create or collect and store

42:48

using your AI pin belongs to

42:50

you and only you and

42:52

is something that only

42:55

you should know about. We don't

42:57

have a way to access your data. We

42:59

don't use it in training

43:01

or anything else. It's literally yours.

43:03

And anytime you use it to

43:05

access a memory, it's actually doing

43:08

so in your own protected

43:10

space. It's a foundational

43:12

thing for us to protect people's

43:14

data and to make

43:16

sure that it's not being used by

43:19

anyone but you. You know,

43:22

we also it was very intentional

43:24

from the beginning that we didn't have a wake

43:26

word. You know, we didn't want to build a

43:28

device that was always listening. We're

43:31

not recording at all. We're not recording

43:33

from the cameras or the microphone unless

43:36

you engage with the device. And

43:38

when you do engage with it, you know,

43:41

you heard the sound when I was using

43:43

it before. When I engage with

43:45

it, the LED turns on to tell

43:47

you and everyone around you that the

43:50

microphone is on. And that's something that

43:52

we actually built into the

43:54

hardware that the LED will turn on

43:56

when the microphone's on, when the cameras

43:58

are on. And And that's

44:00

something that was really important that we

44:02

wanted to be more transparent than the

44:05

devices you have today. So your phone

44:07

today, you know, somebody could be sitting

44:09

across from you, taking pictures

44:11

of you recording audio of you, and you would

44:13

have no idea. It's not

44:15

transparent at all. And Imran

44:18

was pretty clear from the beginning that we

44:20

care about this stuff. And it is important

44:22

that privacy and transparency are at the at

44:24

the forefront of it. And

44:26

that's a big part of our ethos. Do

44:30

you I mean, can it like right now,

44:33

this the pin can't replace a

44:35

smartphone because you can't order an Uber from

44:37

it or or transfer money

44:40

on your bank account, for example. But

44:42

do you imagine that that it will

44:44

be able to do all

44:46

of the things that we've become unfortunately dependent on?

44:48

Like I wanted to I went to a coffee shop

44:51

the other day. And I wanted a coffee and

44:53

I didn't bring my phone and I couldn't see the

44:55

menu. And I was like, What

44:57

do you guys have? And they're like, Oh, just scan your phone. And

45:00

I was like, I'm on my phone. So they were very kindly dictated

45:03

the menu to me. Yeah. But you

45:05

know what I mean? Like, it's

45:07

almost impossible to get to the day

45:09

without a smartphone in most. Yeah, absolutely.

45:12

I think people post COVID the the

45:14

the QR code is reigning supreme right

45:16

now. And it I think when you

45:18

have a vision based computer like ours,

45:21

you can play in that world. It

45:24

works really well. But you know, what we

45:26

what we have here is, again, a computer

45:29

that really allows you to have

45:31

those kinds of interactions without you

45:33

really being the the

45:35

driver of all that you're just the

45:37

person that takes the benefit from it.

45:39

If you think about ride share services,

45:43

you know, you can just say, Hey, I need a

45:45

car. And it will

45:47

your AI understands, as Bethany was saying, where you

45:49

need to be. And you you could say I

45:52

need to get there quickly versus I need to

45:54

get there in the most cost efficient way. And,

45:56

you know, the the device

45:59

and the and the AI

46:01

experience will figure that out for you. And

46:03

so we do see there

46:05

being a tremendous benefit for having

46:07

these AI first interactions for these

46:09

things that we do today because

46:11

they can help you out. It

46:13

just feels more like an extension

46:15

of you. Both of

46:18

you guys are very intimately involved

46:20

in this sort of this AI

46:22

kind of revolution that's happening

46:24

and certainly centered around San Francisco.

46:27

And there's very much been an open

46:31

debate around where

46:34

it's heading and what to expect. I

46:37

understand that what you're working on and your sort

46:39

of the way you

46:42

see your role in it is to create responsible

46:44

AI technology.

46:47

But just in general, where do you

46:49

sort of stand on where

46:51

this is headed? I mean, it's

46:53

already growing and scaling. It's such a fast

46:55

pace that it's hard for the people who

46:59

have created this technology to even understand how

47:02

quickly it's growing and how powerful it's

47:04

becoming. And I wonder whether,

47:06

like I'm

47:08

not smart enough to articulate

47:10

why that scares me, but I can tell you that

47:12

part of it does scare me. And

47:14

I wonder, you guys are a lot smarter than me, does

47:17

any of that scare you? Yeah,

47:20

you know, this is

47:22

an accelerated pace

47:25

unlike anything we've ever seen before. You

47:27

take compute and you couple it to

47:29

the internet and you add in the

47:32

processing capability. I think what really

47:34

needs to happen is there needs

47:36

to be a good balance of making sure

47:38

that bad things don't happen. And

47:40

there needs to be an openness to allow

47:43

for good things to happen. You need

47:45

a way to make sure that

47:47

these regulations keep people safe, but

47:49

then don't stifle innovation. And

47:52

the best way to do that is to involve

47:56

the people that are really intimate

47:58

in understanding how to do that. And

48:01

we have been involved

48:03

in a few conversations about shaping

48:07

regulations around this, which we really appreciate and

48:09

we want to be able to be involved

48:11

in a lot more. But

48:13

you really do need that right

48:15

now. This is not only something

48:18

that's important on a

48:20

regional or national level, it's also

48:22

important on a global level. Bethany,

48:26

I want to ask you a business-related

48:29

question. My assumption, I'm just going back

48:31

to Apple for example, as an

48:33

example, but a huge

48:35

source of Apple's revenue is the App

48:37

Store, right? I mean, they have multiple

48:40

revenue streams. The phones, the hardware, the

48:42

software, the App Store, I mean, it's

48:44

an incredible company in how they can

48:46

really harness different ways of making

48:49

money. You have a closed device. You will

48:51

not have apps, right? So

48:54

we will, or we do, integrate

48:56

with third parties and we already

48:58

have some that exist on

49:00

our platform. There will be many, many more

49:02

over time. And so the

49:04

services side is also a part of the business.

49:07

Right. So you'll have the

49:09

device and then the monthly fee, which

49:12

right now is low, and then over

49:14

time part

49:17

of the business model will be, there will be apps available

49:20

and that could be another revenue stream. And

49:24

we see it a little bit differently in that

49:26

the traditional idea of what an app is is

49:29

effectively going to disappear and it kind

49:31

of already has. And

49:33

so for us, we work really closely with some

49:36

third parties that run on our

49:38

platform. There will

49:40

be some that we don't need

49:42

to have partnerships with where we'll be using

49:44

things that they have publicly available. And

49:47

right now we obviously, we still make money

49:49

on the hardware, which is incredible. And

49:51

over time we're just going to be constantly

49:54

shipping new experiences. And that's the beauty of

49:56

having a Lightweight client

49:58

on the device. By a

50:00

really powerful cloud that you can just continue to

50:02

evolve over time. And you wake up and your

50:05

device does something new just like you on a

50:07

Tesla, you wake up. Your Tesla has a new

50:09

software up cdf it as a new feature. Yachts

50:11

the same model. And. So what?

50:13

What does success look like for you

50:15

in in the next? sort of. Two

50:18

to five years. I'm gonna bring

50:20

it back to something them both

50:23

me said when you feel like

50:25

you have a better relationship with

50:27

technology a of people that own

50:29

just generally happier but then aren't

50:32

for seeking a lot of the

50:34

capabilities that's when I think we'll

50:36

few really good about what we've

50:38

done. To me that was successes

50:40

his sister having an impact of

50:43

redefining our relationship with technology to

50:45

make it make you better. Not.

50:48

I hope that the our work inspires

50:50

other people we've already seen that kind

50:52

of. We started this momentum in the

50:54

Ai hardware space which is really exciting

50:57

and I think that will ultimately benefit

50:59

all of us As and you know

51:01

we we are building something that we

51:03

want to write. We we. We started

51:05

building this because we wanted and our

51:07

allies and I think of course success

51:10

for us and means financial success. Of

51:12

course that that has to be a

51:14

factor we're building a business is is

51:16

that that's a huge yard. Of s

51:18

that I'll say that. the thing for

51:20

me personally you know if that really

51:23

impacts me is when even people who

51:25

have pins today or our entire company

51:27

has them some friends and family have

51:29

them were were living with them the

51:31

you know day to day but as

51:33

we get ready to ship we have

51:35

channels internally at our company or people

51:37

post photos videos experiences that they have

51:39

with their device and it's kind of

51:41

share their thoughts and the when I

51:43

read ones that involve people talking about

51:45

how they. You know, went away

51:47

for the weekend with their family and they

51:49

were able to capture all these moments. And

51:51

you know, go to an event with their

51:53

child's end to capture the entire thing. But

51:56

like. Be. Able to look them

51:58

in the eyes the whole time and

52:00

state early president moments. Those are the

52:02

things that kept me pretty emotional Honestly,

52:04

because I I do care a lot

52:06

about the impact what we build has

52:08

on people's day to day lives Like

52:11

that for me is is a huge

52:13

motivator every day. That the

52:15

the Amraam! Thank you so much thank you.

52:17

Please go. That's

52:21

Bethany Bongiorno and him Run Chaudhry Founders

52:23

of Humane. Thanks for listening to the

52:25

show this week! Please make sure to

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