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To get the annual plan for less than $2.50 per

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month, search for Economist Podcasts Plus

1:11

to start listening today. I

1:15

feel like every year, once

1:17

January 1st hits, it's like, okay, I'm going

1:20

to stop. There's some

1:22

people who are able to do that and I applaud them

1:24

to do so, to just cut cold turkey.

1:27

But I feel like alcohol has been a

1:29

part of my life and solely it, and

1:31

just to cut that out completely has been

1:34

such a struggle. Welcome

1:38

to How To, the show where listeners write

1:40

to us with our toughest questions and we

1:42

talk it out with the wisest people we

1:44

know. I'm Courtney Martin. Have

1:47

you noticed Americans just aren't drinking

1:49

like they used to? On

1:52

the one hand, the younger generation appears to

1:54

be drinking less and there's a cool rise

1:56

in non-alcoholic beverages and sodas and even like

1:59

whole bars. ours, devoted to

2:01

socializing without booze, something I could

2:03

have never imagined a decade ago.

2:06

It feels like it's never been so normal to

2:08

be sober. On

2:10

the other hand, the pandemic threw a

2:12

lot of us into a dark place.

2:16

Women especially started drinking more to cope,

2:18

and we've seen the rise of these

2:20

identities that go along with that, you

2:22

know, the wine mom and the craft

2:24

beer bro. Even

2:26

though research shows that too much alcohol can

2:28

be bad for us, six in ten Americans

2:30

drink and a third of those that do

2:32

say they drink more than they should. Now

2:36

listen, I'm not calling people out, I can relate.

2:38

I myself am one of those people

2:40

who wants to reset my relationship with

2:42

alcohol in this post-ish pandemic moment. But

2:46

as I've looked out for resources, I found

2:48

it interesting how much of the public conversation

2:50

about drinking revolves around either abundance on the

2:53

one hand or total abstinence on the other.

2:56

Meanwhile, a more searching conversation, you

2:58

know, a conversation about moderation, for

3:00

example, just seems missing, which

3:03

is where Rosamond Dean comes

3:06

in. I'm a journalist

3:08

and the author of Mindful Drinking,

3:10

How Cussing Dean Can Change Your

3:12

Life. And the

3:14

reason that I wrote the book is because there

3:17

are a lot of books and resources

3:19

out there for people that want to

3:21

stop drinking completely. But

3:23

in my experience, lots of people don't

3:25

want to stop drinking completely. They just

3:27

want to be a bit more in

3:29

control of their relationship with alcohol. Perhaps

3:32

the most visible indicator that people are

3:34

looking to change their drinking habits is

3:37

the popularity of Dry January, a challenge

3:39

where people abstain from drinking for the

3:41

month. Now, to be honest,

3:44

I've never been a big believer in

3:46

New Year's resolutions. I find the idea of

3:48

temporary abstinence kind of uninspiring. It's like a

3:51

small dose of purity that usually

3:53

fizzles before any real transformation. But

3:56

what does long term moderation even

3:58

look like? For some, it

4:00

means a glass of wine

4:02

without feeling the desire to polish off the

4:04

bottle or an evening out with

4:07

their friends without needing to drink. So

4:09

I guess it's you have this

4:11

sense of control over alcohol rather than

4:14

it controlling you. And

4:16

in some ways, mindful drinking

4:18

is more difficult than complete

4:20

abstinence. Because if you're a

4:22

person who doesn't drink, then you've made one decision,

4:24

you don't drink and that's it. Whereas

4:27

if you're a mindful drinker, then

4:31

every single day it's, is this one of

4:33

my drinking days? Am I going to

4:35

drink? What am I going to drink? How much am I going to

4:37

drink? What am I going to say to anyone who tries

4:39

to pressure me into drinking tonight? It's

4:42

a lot more decisions. Rosamund,

4:44

I know this wisdom that you're bringing to

4:46

us, thank goodness, is very hard to earn.

4:49

Can you tell us a little bit about your

4:51

journey with drinking? I

4:53

spent, I'd say my teens and my

4:56

twenties and quite a lot of my

4:58

thirties being probably

5:00

just a normal British

5:03

woman. The drinking culture here in

5:05

the UK is very, very prevalent.

5:07

It was all around me all

5:09

the time. And I

5:11

remember when I had kids in

5:13

my mid thirties, I thought,

5:16

because I didn't drink during pregnancy, and

5:18

I thought, I can

5:20

do this. This is it. I'm going

5:22

to change my whole drinking behaviour. I'm

5:24

just going to be a super healthy

5:26

tea total person whilst having children. And

5:29

then as soon as you have a baby, then it

5:31

turns into, you know, mummy wine time and

5:34

you go out with your old friends, you

5:36

want to prove that you haven't changed since

5:38

having kids. It was actually when

5:40

I was on maternity leave with my second child,

5:43

I wrote mindful drinking because I wanted

5:46

to find a way to

5:48

change my relationship with alcohol

5:51

because I had realised that you can't just do

5:53

it through willpower. You can't just say, right, I'm

5:55

going to drink less from now on. You need

5:57

to have a plan and you need to have

5:59

a plan. have a kind of

6:01

structured method, it won't

6:03

happen by itself because it is hard but

6:05

it is doable. On

6:10

today's show, Rosamund is going to

6:12

share the plan that helped her transform

6:14

a desire for moderation into real life

6:16

mindfulness and she'll help a

6:18

listener do the same. Meet

6:21

Natalie. I can go a

6:23

couple of days without drinking and then

6:25

if I have a stressful day at

6:27

work or my personal

6:29

life, I immediately open

6:32

a bottle of wine and one

6:34

glass turns into two glasses and then the

6:36

third glass and then that's the part

6:39

where I struggle where it's

6:41

either I don't hold myself accountable to it

6:44

or it just puts me into the position

6:46

where it's like maybe this isn't for me or maybe I just

6:48

don't know how to do it. And

6:51

let's be sure to put this right out there. Alcoholism

6:54

is real and dangerous and so widespread.

6:56

If you think you might be an

6:58

alcoholic and need help, we'll add a

7:00

link and a number to a free

7:02

national hotline in the show notes and

7:04

listen, AA is literally everywhere. But

7:07

for those of you who like me just

7:09

want to be more discerning about when and

7:11

how we drink, this is your episode. We'll

7:13

continue that conversation right after the break. This

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8:32

As I mentioned earlier, I'd been wanting

8:34

to do an episode about rethinking our

8:36

relationship to drinking, which is why I

8:38

was so grateful to hear that our

8:40

listener, Natalie, was wondering the same thing.

8:43

I grew up with alcohol my

8:45

whole life as a first generation

8:47

Mexican-American from baptism

8:49

to Sweet 15 through any

8:52

kind of celebration, honestly. And

8:55

then I took that into my

8:57

adult life. I live

8:59

in Philadelphia and I'm a pastry chef, especially

9:01

working in the restaurant industry. Didn't

9:04

really help out in your

9:06

early 20s. It's kind of fun. But

9:09

then once you hit 30s and you

9:11

go out for drinks with co-workers, it's not so

9:13

much fun. There are so many

9:15

reasons to drink. And I think that's

9:18

one of the things that gets lost

9:20

in the binary conversation that's like abstinence

9:23

or free-flowing alcohol

9:26

is that there's celebration,

9:28

right? You mentioned baptisms

9:30

and family gatherings. And

9:33

we often associate alcohol with celebration. We also

9:35

associate it with stress relief. I'm

9:38

someone who definitely drinks to relieve

9:40

some anxiety. So can you

9:42

talk a little bit about what you've noticed

9:44

about when and why you drink? I'm

9:47

definitely someone that is shy,

9:49

kind of

9:52

quiet. And I don't know how to

9:55

just talk and have a normal conversation with someone.

9:57

It's kind of hard for me to do that,

9:59

to open up. And,

10:01

you know, I take a sip

10:03

of beer, wine, and I start

10:05

to loosen up. I want

10:07

to be able to be myself when

10:09

I have to rely on something. I

10:12

feel like my partner is one of those people who are

10:15

able to just, you know, have a beer and

10:17

just chill at the bar and make conversations.

10:20

And I look at him and I'm like, I feel

10:23

a little jealous because

10:26

I can't do that without

10:28

relying on that beer to

10:31

just make me feel at ease. This

10:34

might seem like an obvious question,

10:36

but why do you want

10:39

to be able to be at ease without the

10:41

beer? Like, what about that is important to you?

10:46

Just for people to get to know me, I always

10:49

have this thing in my head where

10:51

like people don't find me interesting or

10:54

maybe I'm boring because I'm quiet or

10:58

maybe feel like, oh, she doesn't want to be here.

11:00

Like, why is she here if she's

11:03

not, you know, having fun or drinking? Initially,

11:06

I think history is so relatable.

11:09

So many of us have never

11:11

socialized sober, which is mad when you

11:13

think about it. So it

11:16

really is a kind of

11:18

relearning, a reeducation to have

11:20

a mindset shift away

11:22

from thinking that you have to,

11:25

because you don't, you

11:27

definitely don't need alcohol as much as

11:29

you think you do. But I

11:31

know that it will take

11:33

a while for you to believe that. And

11:36

alcohol is a drug and

11:38

it's very, very effective at what you do.

11:42

So if you have a set of alcohol when you

11:44

feel stressed, it does immediately hit

11:47

those neurons in your brain to calm

11:49

you down. And it does help

11:51

loosen up your inhibitions when you're in a

11:53

social situation. So it is really, really

11:55

hard to cut down. So I think the

11:58

first thing is to agree. acknowledge

12:00

how hard it is. That doesn't mean

12:02

you can't do it, you definitely can do it.

12:04

But first of all, you need to say, this

12:06

is a hard thing that I'm doing, because I

12:09

think so many people look around

12:11

them and they see others having a

12:13

more mindful relationship with drinking.

12:15

And they think, why can't I

12:17

do that? I've failed, alcohol has

12:19

got this power over me, I've

12:21

got no willpower, and

12:23

kind of blame themselves. And it's so

12:26

easy to go into that kind of

12:28

shame spiral. But it's

12:30

just it's such a waste of time, because

12:32

it's much easier to learn from the experience

12:35

and move on, you know, don't beat yourself

12:37

up over it. And I feel like

12:39

already you've got a really amazing level

12:41

of self awareness, where you know,

12:43

the role of alcohol for

12:46

those in your life. That's

12:48

almost the most difficult step.

12:50

Because once you can identify that,

12:53

then you can identify other

12:55

things that can help fulfill

12:57

that same role in

12:59

your life. It's like, right, these

13:01

are the things that I know

13:04

help me manage stress, alcohol is

13:06

definitely one of them. Can

13:08

I feel that urge to drink and

13:10

kind of first the urge, feel it,

13:13

give into it and at the same

13:15

time, try doing some of these other

13:17

things that might help. I

13:19

think that's a really good approach

13:22

for drinking at home. Social

13:25

situations are kind of a whole

13:27

different ballgame. So

13:32

I'm hearing you say first is really

13:35

deeply admitting that alcohol is addictive. You

13:37

know, we have all the science on

13:39

it. And having some serenity around that

13:42

in terms of undoing this relationship with

13:44

shame seems like such an important first

13:46

step. And then second,

13:48

which, you know, Natalie, it feels like you're

13:50

already pretty far through is

13:52

really asking yourself, okay, what is my relationship

13:54

with alcohol? When do I drink and why

13:57

do I drink? Natalie, how do you feel

13:59

about what? when you hear Rosamund describe

14:01

the management piece versus

14:03

abstinence, what comes up for

14:05

you? Oh, definitely relatable. It's

14:08

a constant everyday decision.

14:11

I work during the week, so

14:13

I would come home, I

14:15

would stay around midnight, and the

14:17

urge to just have a beer,

14:21

and a glass of wine. And then

14:23

in my head, I'm like, well, I'm off on

14:25

Saturday, so I guess I can drink more because

14:27

I deserve it. That's

14:29

where I think I fail, because I feel

14:31

like I do good during the week, and

14:35

now I made that

14:37

conscious decision of having more

14:39

than two drinks because I can. There's

14:42

so much language, which I think is

14:44

so common, Natalie, when you speak, that

14:47

feels almost religious, honestly, but it's very

14:49

like, you're good, you deserve it, you're

14:52

ashamed because you did

14:54

bad. I think so many

14:56

people relate to that. Rosamund, is there some way

14:58

to decouple your

15:01

behavior around alcohol from this

15:04

character sort

15:06

of assassination that we do to ourselves?

15:09

And we do it with so

15:11

many behaviors, not just drinking alcohol.

15:13

You see this a lot with food as well.

15:15

I've been good today or bad today. It

15:18

helps more to think of them

15:20

as helpful or unhelpful habits. They

15:22

all serve a purpose. It's

15:25

not just you not having any willpower

15:27

and being kind of out of control.

15:30

It's helping you manage your stress or

15:32

it's like a comfort blanket for you

15:34

in some ways. So it's

15:36

kind of acknowledging that those

15:39

less helpful habits have

15:42

a role and they are helping you in

15:44

some way, but you can find more helpful

15:46

habits that might do the

15:48

same thing. I think it really helps

15:51

to replace habits rather than just try

15:53

and stop something without putting

15:55

anything in its place. Okay,

15:59

let's... pause for a moment here. So

16:01

the first step is asking ourselves, when

16:03

do I drink and why do I

16:05

drink? Is it to relieve stress, to

16:07

deal with social anxiety, to celebrate? It's

16:10

hard to cut back if you don't

16:12

first have an accurate, kind of more

16:14

granular idea about how you're using alcohol

16:16

in the first place. That

16:18

nuanced awareness is the seed

16:20

of using alcohol differently. That's

16:23

a very different approach than abstinence-oriented

16:25

programs, which often push people to

16:27

see themselves as powerless in the

16:29

face of alcohol. I've

16:31

tried AA meetings. I've also tried

16:33

this program called

16:36

Smart Recovery. It's mostly

16:38

loose-based. Anyone can just come in

16:40

and just talk about anything. I find

16:43

like all, especially where I live

16:45

in Philadelphia, most AA meetings tend to

16:48

be very religious, and I am not.

16:50

So it's very hard to find

16:52

something that actually works for you.

16:55

There's a lot of interesting

16:57

literature and conversation now

16:59

about the ways in which AA has

17:02

some real patriarchal context

17:04

to it, created during sort of the Mad Men

17:06

era by white men. So there's

17:08

a lot about humbling yourself and to

17:10

your point, Natalie, the focus on religion.

17:12

So I think there

17:15

are so many people for whom AA works

17:17

beautifully, but also so many people for whom

17:19

it doesn't. Rosamund, will you tell

17:21

us a little bit about how you think about structure

17:23

and kind of a way

17:26

of approaching this with a little bit more of,

17:28

I don't know if you call it a program,

17:30

but your way of being intentional about it. Yeah,

17:33

absolutely. I would say it

17:35

is good to have a complete

17:37

break from alcohol, which is why

17:39

initiatives like Dry January or sober

17:41

October are so

17:44

effective. If you don't drink

17:46

during that month, then you've got an easy reason.

17:48

Oh, I'm doing Dry January. It's an easy excuse.

17:51

Even if your ultimate goal is moderation,

17:53

it's good to have a break. If

17:56

only to prove that you can, to be

17:59

honest. Thank you, reset

18:01

your tolerance and then the. Tools

18:03

that you learned from that. Kind

18:06

of. I did see a month is a great

18:08

man. Tell him the even see weeks with help.

18:10

The tools the line during that time. Will

18:12

rarely set you up for moderation.

18:16

Okay, give yourself a reset period of

18:18

two weeks to a month where you

18:20

practice abstinence and learn more about what

18:22

alternatives work for you. When you get

18:24

stressed, does a cup of tea till

18:26

you out there are calling an old

18:28

friend for a quick chat. Walk.

18:30

Around the Block. that's my favorite. Once

18:33

you've experimenters a little with alternatives, you're

18:35

ready to reintegrate drinking with a more

18:37

mindful approach Rossum and recommends coming up

18:39

with a plan for the week ahead

18:41

when my to drink feel rate. given

18:44

your schedule that way you're not deciding

18:46

on the spot And Rosalind sound the

18:48

guideline of drinking only three nights a

18:50

week and having three or less drinks

18:52

in one go with the right ratio.

18:54

For her, it's or rule of threes.

18:58

Preparation. Is everything if you

19:00

look into social situation thinking oh and

19:02

can a drink less tonight but it's

19:04

T V and it he was A

19:07

it's if they see his when she's

19:09

a woman who to drink. Scenario: Control

19:11

guys that wins. It's so you really

19:14

have to look guilty and say and

19:16

only get a drink and a maximum

19:18

of three days this week what are

19:21

they going to be. And

19:23

on those days, who am I gonna

19:25

say that negative drink. What?

19:27

Am I gonna say us to one or

19:29

two drinks for just have it all turned

19:32

out said either influences in a situation where

19:34

you're at the bar and so and just

19:36

ordered above the line to the great hands

19:38

you had lost in that the decisions kind

19:41

of take that if your hands you have

19:43

to seize control of it. When.

19:45

I love about your model As if you'd

19:47

say to yourself, for example, the rule as

19:49

three that you've introduced like okay I'm looking

19:52

at the week ahead is there were three

19:54

moments that would cel. Pleasurable.

19:56

and and celebratory to drink what might

19:58

they be then it means you have

20:00

that drink, you get to be really into

20:02

it, right? You get to be like, ooh, I'm having

20:04

this beer and it's so cold and wonderful

20:07

and I know I'm not going to have 10 of them

20:09

this week. So this is like a

20:11

special moment. It seems like the approach

20:13

that you're recommending actually helps us get

20:15

back in touch with the beauty of

20:17

alcohol in a certain way. The

20:20

enjoyment of drinking is such

20:24

an important message

20:26

because if we just dismiss that and it's

20:28

like we're dismissing a really important element of

20:30

why people like to drink. When

20:33

I go out now, I would

20:36

treat myself to one really lovely cocktail

20:38

rather than having a bunch of cheap

20:40

white wine. And another

20:42

thing that is really good to mention

20:44

here is there are so many really

20:46

nice alcohol free drinks that

20:48

can just seamlessly fit into

20:51

a drinking situation. So

20:53

you know, kombucha in a flute looks

20:55

like champagne. Yeah. Or an alcohol free

20:57

spirit like Seedlic or Liars, one of

20:59

the things you have that with the tonic. It's like

21:02

a G&T and an alcohol free beer,

21:04

obviously looks like a beer. I think

21:07

you will actually be amazed at how much

21:09

easier it is when you look like you're

21:11

drinking and when you have

21:13

something that replaces the sense of

21:15

ritual and just the thing of

21:17

having a drink in your hand

21:20

feels celebratory. It's

21:22

kind of mind blowing how much it's

21:24

not necessarily about the alcohol. That's

21:26

hard to believe in the hand, you've actually

21:28

done it. Even at home, that

21:33

kind of opening a cold drink

21:36

and having like the opening

21:39

the bottle, that feeling alone can help

21:41

you sort of switch off and be

21:43

like, oh yeah, this is my time

21:45

now, works over. And if it's

21:47

like a lovely alcohol free

21:50

drink that you're having at home, it

21:53

almost fulfills the same role. So

21:55

don't underestimate the power of Having

21:58

good alcohol free. Drink. Natalie.

22:01

Have you tried that? and where

22:03

are you buying this? Are you

22:05

like know? I mean the chemical

22:07

relaxation of the drum. I think

22:09

the idea of having. A

22:12

can in your hand like assault soon.

22:15

as he like that feeling of like. says.

22:18

In his and causes Census.

22:20

Honey Gisela Currencies. And

22:23

that makes me to go through the day without

22:25

thinking about like I don't really. Need.

22:27

To drink. Right now I think

22:30

there are moments where I do

22:32

with kind of rely on like

22:35

that bus feeling that. A

22:37

drink does give you. Death. And

22:39

maybe that's part of that. You know,

22:41

if you can, Look at your

22:43

week ahead with the anticipation as when

22:45

as a moment when the actual chemical

22:48

experience of rail alcohol would. Be.

22:50

Helpful. Ends. And there's that word.

22:53

Health. Oh my goodness of us. One

22:55

thing I want to ask you. Natalie

22:57

does a rule of three. as Rosalind

22:59

was describing it. Sealed like within your

23:02

reach. How does it strike you? And

23:04

she describes it? It does. It's something

23:06

that eyes on my own been wanting.

23:09

To do or do do some

23:11

in a week. There are a

23:13

lotta times where. I get

23:15

acts by my coworkers to gloss for

23:17

drinks like. On a Tuesday and

23:20

I'm like, listen, natalie. Like you're not

23:22

twenty you're not gonna go up to

23:24

tonight. So if I do

23:26

go out with either Friday or Saturday

23:29

but it sucks that. Afterwards,

23:31

that's when we have time to

23:33

socialize over up a home. right?

23:37

way a while and your story points out

23:39

and and such as your is rosalyn so

23:41

clearly how alcohol is something we can kind

23:43

of map and our allies cycle right and

23:46

that there's like a way in which you

23:48

drink and party if you do drink in

23:50

your twenties that when you start to get

23:52

into your thirties or kinda like okay i'm

23:54

not sure the still sits both my physical

23:56

capacity but also just sort of their license

23:58

or anything for myself. And then when you

24:01

have kids, if you have kids, there's

24:03

that other moment of like alcohol takes on a

24:05

different role in your life. And do you like

24:07

that role? And so it seems like, Rosman, this

24:09

is something you have to continually revisit

24:12

depending on sort of the season of

24:14

life. Is that right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

24:16

And season of life changes

24:19

everything. But it is good to

24:21

have kind of rules for

24:23

yourself throughout it all. So if you

24:25

have something in your mind, like, for

24:27

instance, if I drink,

24:29

it's going to be celebratory and sociable. So

24:32

I have a rule that I don't drink

24:34

alone. And I don't

24:36

use alcohol to deal with

24:38

difficult or stressful situations. Because

24:41

that's one of the most common

24:43

reasons why people drink, right? Because

24:45

of stress and anxiety, and it

24:47

never makes it better. Ever.

24:50

It just, you know, the next day,

24:52

you still have whatever you were stressed

24:54

or anxious about that now also hang

24:56

over as well. And as we know,

24:58

alcohol exacerbates anxiety in the

25:00

long term. That's why people

25:02

talk about anxiety. And

25:05

also, I would say a really good

25:07

thing to do at the beginning is just get

25:10

really, really clear on why you want

25:12

to cut down on how much

25:14

you drink. And we kind of talked about this

25:16

earlier, and I actually found it really moving when

25:18

he said for

25:20

people to see the real you because

25:22

that that's so I think that's

25:25

so powerful, because then you do drink

25:27

less. Or if you are

25:29

able to have sober socializing

25:31

occasions, then you really

25:34

realize the benefits of having your wits

25:36

about you in a social situation, you

25:38

can remember people's names, what's going on

25:40

in their lives, you know, you have

25:43

more meaningful conversations, rather than kind

25:45

of drunkenly talking over them or not really listening,

25:47

you know, it makes you a better friend. I

25:50

think that's a really, really good thing to keep

25:52

in mind. Obviously, there are loads of other benefits

25:54

of drinking less from, better skin,

25:56

more energy, less anxiety,

25:59

more restorative skin. sleep, weight loss,

26:01

stronger immune system, you know, a smaller risk

26:03

of lots of diseases, including cancer. So

26:05

there are so many reasons it's good

26:07

to kind of hone in on the

26:10

one that's really important to you and

26:12

keep that in mind. Okay,

26:16

we're gonna take a break here, but when

26:18

we come back, we're gonna talk about taking

26:20

all of this planning and putting it to

26:22

the test out in the inebriated wild. Stay

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29:28

right, we're back with our listener

29:30

Natalie and Rosamund Dean, the author

29:32

of Mindful Drinking. Rosamund,

29:34

will you take us into that scenario? You

29:37

briefly touched on of like someone orders a

29:39

bottle of wine, hands you a glass. Because

29:41

I imagine one of the preparations needed is

29:43

a script, like some kind of what are

29:46

you going to say in that moment? And

29:48

Natalie, I imagine you and I are similar

29:50

in that like I want to seem fun.

29:52

It's hard to say no with Friends

29:55

who are used to you drinking and hard

29:57

to know how to phrase why you're not.

30:00

Drinking, especially if you're not being abstinence because

30:02

it's one thing to say like. I've

30:04

stopped drinking but if you're actually just trying to

30:06

cut down I may guess you could to say

30:09

now that I'm saying that of like you to

30:11

say I'm Danica Down and but somehow it feels

30:13

like this can of worms to me that I

30:15

like don't exactly know how to deal with Natalie,

30:18

do you relate or my rambling. Her own

30:20

oh can we really? So for some

30:22

reason like when you say oh my

30:24

drinking. It's like oh is no

30:27

questions asked But the fact that you're

30:29

like oh, but why you decided to

30:31

cut down. It's a whole other question.

30:34

Like. I actually haven't even really been in

30:36

that kind of situation because. I'm afraid to

30:38

even try that one. Must have that he

30:40

would. I do hang out with either going

30:42

to binge drink or. Half to

30:45

three drinks. I would say

30:47

it really depends on your

30:49

friends and he has received

30:51

night say I have friends

30:53

I could see to didn't.

30:56

Really change contingency than just can have

30:58

one tonight to eat and it's so

31:00

me. I have never seen A and

31:02

it gets them on the side at

31:04

the beginning. I have other friends that.

31:06

To. Be honest. I. Pretend

31:08

streets when I was sleeping with

31:10

an. Which sounds crazy

31:13

but I'm in a i'd say I'll get

31:15

the first round and I just get myself

31:17

a tonic what I'm getting then incident on

31:20

it. if we. Shared a bosses line in

31:22

a group: "I just kind of half my bosses

31:24

line and don't really trinkets and I just don't

31:26

make thing effect. I. Know that that

31:28

kind of friends who would say

31:30

drinking Com on she lies lies

31:33

My. Birthday Not important enough

31:35

to be one of your thinking. Day he's

31:37

he asserts that kind of take it

31:39

really personally eats and I think that

31:41

says a lot about them. and it's

31:43

has a lot about the kind of

31:46

emotional connection that so many of us

31:48

have with drinking. yes well

31:50

i am i feel like people

31:52

projects when you say i'm putting

31:54

down drinking are fewer to sad

31:56

stopping drinking it forces people to

31:58

reflect on their own behavior and

32:00

they don't want to do that, you know?

32:02

So it's like there's a way in which

32:05

you're just stepping into the middle of a

32:07

lot of people's insecurities when you choose to

32:09

cut down yourself, which is hard. That is

32:12

so interesting about just appearing to drink. I

32:15

never would have thought of that. Natalie, have you ever

32:17

tried that? No. No.

32:19

No. No. All

32:21

right. Well, there's an experiment for us. What

32:25

about accountability partners, Rosamond, because

32:27

I'm thinking about Natalie, your

32:29

boyfriend. And I didn't do

32:32

dry January, but I tried to cut down drinking

32:34

this month. And one of my friends and I

32:36

decided to do that together. So we would leave

32:38

each other a little voice text and say, OK,

32:40

I drink twice this week, and this is when.

32:42

And this time felt good. This time didn't. I

32:45

found it really supportive. Do

32:47

you have any recommendations about people linking

32:50

up with someone and doing it together, the

32:52

mindful drinking approach? Yeah, yeah,

32:54

absolutely. I mean, Natalie, your boyfriend sounds like

32:56

a nice guy. I think

32:59

you could probably have a chat with him and

33:01

say, tonight, I'm going to

33:03

really try to just have one drink. Let's

33:06

see if I can do it and kind of make it into a

33:08

challenge that he's going to help you out with. And

33:10

also, I feel like once you start talking

33:13

to other people about this,

33:15

you'll realize that more of your friends than

33:17

you thought are interested in

33:19

trying to cut down their drinking as well, quite

33:21

often you'll find that people say, oh, yeah, yeah,

33:23

I really want to do that, too. Let's do

33:25

it together. And another thing

33:28

I'd really recommend is downloading some kind

33:30

of tracking app on your phone. There

33:32

are so many of them. And

33:35

just ticking off your alcohol-free

33:37

days. It's strangely

33:39

satisfying. Yeah,

33:46

since you're a pastry chef, I'm fantasizing

33:48

that you get to eat the most

33:51

delicious pastry ever that

33:53

you don't drink or something. You're probably sick of

33:56

pastries. Natalie, do you

33:58

have friends to kind of work out? walk

34:00

alongside in this journey? I

34:04

guess a little bit more about me. I've

34:06

moved to Philadelphia right before

34:09

the pandemic. So making

34:11

friends has been slightly difficult for me.

34:14

And the only friends that I do

34:16

have are people that I work

34:18

with. It's just striking

34:20

me, Natalie, you're talking about community. And

34:22

you're trying to form a new community,

34:24

which can be so hard. The

34:27

benefit is you have an opportunity

34:29

to create community with people for

34:31

whom drinking isn't the only

34:33

or primary way they want to connect. I think

34:36

so often when we're in entrenched communities,

34:38

and maybe this is the case with your family,

34:41

it's like drinking is so central to the

34:43

relationship that if you take the drinking away,

34:45

sometimes there's kind of nothing left. And you

34:47

realize, wow, these people and I just drink

34:49

together. That was the glue that

34:52

kept us together. And

34:54

instead, you have this opportunity to possibly

34:56

meet people for whom that will never

34:58

be a worry because you're starting fresh

35:01

with something more substantive at the center. Do

35:04

you worry about the family piece of it?

35:06

Because I think that can sometimes be

35:08

the hardest part, Natalie. I

35:11

do drink when I go visit my

35:13

family. I drink around them.

35:15

But then I also get scold

35:18

at for drinking, which is kind

35:20

of confusing. Isn't

35:23

that it's such a double bind, right,

35:26

in some families where they're like, have a

35:28

drink. You're so uptight. And then they're like,

35:30

you drink too much. What are you thinking?

35:32

Like, you just can't win, right? Yeah, it's

35:35

like that saying, get drunk, but don't

35:37

be a mess. Yeah, it's like a

35:39

really fine line where

35:41

it's like an acceptable amount of drinking. That's

35:44

the thing, I don't know how to say it,

35:47

where there's like to say, oh, I have a problem. Or

35:50

just to say, hey, I'm actually trying to

35:52

do this for myself.

35:55

I don't know what their reaction is going to be.

35:58

I personally found it Easy.. The

36:00

i couldn't milk it really was

36:02

thing trying to drink the s

36:05

oh. I have a problem

36:07

a class and eat as that Santa

36:09

with a bottle of alcohol free spirits.

36:11

Oh yeah I as an alternative is

36:14

to the wine the I would normally

36:16

have when I'm with my family and

36:18

see. Me to get. This game

36:20

items for instance in this. Is really to

36:22

This is a sudden desire. This is how he hadn't and. Approach

36:25

in a positive way rather than

36:27

to defeat. Visit This is a difficult

36:29

thing and doing and I want to serious

36:31

conversation. About it. It's more like I'm

36:34

trying this fun experiment. Join me.

36:38

I love that! Not.

36:42

Only is there anything else lingering for

36:44

you that you and ask Rosin and.

36:47

I guess one of my biggest thing was.

36:50

Trying. Not to be so

36:52

hard on myself. Why? And there

36:54

are days where. Are. Nice

36:56

worthy trying too. My and.

36:59

Elicits where I'm I'm a. Time when

37:01

I'm focus on earth, that's a question

37:03

to ask. but. I guess that ceiling

37:06

of feeling a seem of your sofa.

37:08

Not trying to accomplish things

37:10

and. I'll I'll feel it. I

37:12

don't have a sense of control. Over.

37:15

Us. Is what

37:17

will he doesn't say powerful

37:20

because I think. So.

37:23

Many people sales sitting around.

37:25

This and fullness the Evidence

37:27

series that Shane never works.

37:30

When it comes to behavior is

37:32

being snooty, this be shamed into

37:34

changing. Had a haze. yes you

37:37

have it's it. Is. Very

37:39

much more powerful to the tines

37:41

yourself and being find yourselves is

37:43

legit. They things it's easy to

37:45

say and difficult to the he

37:47

spits them but it's I think

37:50

is about just interesting though. Is. Aiming

37:53

for progress A that the sex And because

37:55

it's so easy to slide into this thing

37:58

of waking up with a hangover. feeling

38:01

shame around it. Time is a really

38:03

important factor here because you lose so

38:06

much time when you drink heavily because you

38:08

lose whole parts of the evening from your

38:10

memory and then you lose

38:12

the next morning to a hangover. And

38:14

if you wake up feeling like that then it

38:16

can be easy to think, oh I just failed so

38:19

now I might as well have a bloody Mary with

38:21

brunch, like there's no other

38:23

way. So yeah, so

38:26

it's acknowledging that it's hard, aiming

38:28

for progress over perfection. And

38:31

when you keep doing on your

38:34

drinking then you really

38:36

have to feel all of your feelings

38:38

because you don't have alcohol to

38:40

numb them. And I know people drink

38:43

for lots of different reasons but it's

38:45

quite often people drink to

38:47

cope with difficult emotions like stress,

38:49

anxiety, boredom, loneliness.

38:53

And you have to really

38:55

really feel those things and

38:57

find other strategies to cope with them. It's

39:00

something that takes time and the more you do it

39:02

the more you will realize that you can. I

39:05

hear that. I

39:08

really liked also what you said earlier

39:10

Rosamund, it was very brief but you

39:12

mentioned like riding the wave of an

39:14

impulse because I think that gets to

39:16

that point you're making about

39:18

emotions. It's like it's

39:20

not actually easy or comfortable always

39:22

to feel the emotion when you're

39:25

choosing not to numb it with

39:27

a drink. But then when you feel

39:29

it you get some really important information from it

39:31

and live a more authentic life which I know

39:33

is Natalie part of what you're after is really

39:36

wanting to show up as yourself. So that's so beautiful.

39:40

Natalie was this helpful overall? Anything

39:43

lingering for you? No

39:45

not really. This was very

39:47

helpful. I wrote to you

39:50

guys on such a like because I've been

39:52

meaning to and then once I

39:54

click send I'm like holy shit what the hell I done.

40:00

And I'm just thankful in. Of

40:02

for your time, Rosamund and Courtney and

40:04

I can't wait to see. How

40:08

this impacts. Someone. Else

40:10

out there. Now.

40:13

What? Thank you so much for being

40:15

so brave. Sadly I really honor that

40:17

and appreciate it. And yes like I

40:19

said you're not alone. I myself have

40:21

tried to figure this out and and

40:23

that's a whole reason Rosemond read her

40:26

book raises that weeks we write the

40:28

book we need to read. So Cs

40:30

and and Razon so grateful to you

40:32

for your time and just year. Very

40:34

level headed like practical insights which I

40:36

think lend themselves heard some real deep

40:38

places As practical as they are you

40:40

you have such a beautiful blend of

40:42

the. To say thank you so much. Ah

40:44

thank you so much for hacking the and

40:47

thank you nothing to been so open that

40:49

I really think it's going to help. A

40:51

lot of faith. Was he talking say consulted

40:53

with the in Nutley think you are A

40:56

and Natalie have to keep us posted. Okay

40:58

and there's no shame, no shame updates. I

41:00

would not accept that he is no shame.

41:12

Is the author of Mindful Drinking Have heading

41:14

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41:16

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41:19

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41:21

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