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fresh for everyone. So

1:00

I go to this preschool program where I'm finally

1:02

getting my older son into school and the

1:05

preschool teacher affirms that the

1:07

people around me are going to become my support system.

1:10

And then I looked down at my name tag,

1:12

Allison, and my name tag said Zach's mom. And

1:16

so I remember thinking that day, these are the people that are

1:18

going to know me better than anyone's

1:20

ever known me in my entire life. Well, they don't

1:23

even know my fucking name. And

1:26

that's when I realized that not only would I be

1:28

abandoned by my husband and

1:30

my workplace, but by society in general, by

1:32

having them force me into these boxes, parent,

1:36

a partner and a professional. Welcome

1:40

to How To. I'm Courtney Martin. You

1:44

know, this might surprise you, but I've

1:46

been thinking a lot about man caves.

1:49

You know, those basements or garages or whatever

1:51

where guys get to play poker and let

1:53

it all hang out far from the watchful

1:55

eye of wives and daughters and such. Well,

1:58

as you might be able to tell, I am. I'm skeptical

2:00

of the way mancaves are glorified, but

2:03

I'm also sort of weirdly into them. Or

2:06

more accurately, I am into subverting them.

2:09

People regardless of their gender deserve spaces apart

2:11

from their families to be in touch with

2:14

what they love and who they are when

2:16

they're not working or caring for someone. In

2:19

other words, like maybe moms need

2:22

mancaves? Or at

2:24

least time and space free is societal expectation,

2:26

right? Caregiving responsibilities work stress.

2:29

Even if it doesn't have a giant Budweiser

2:31

banner or big screen TV. So

2:34

come to think of it, it could to each her own, right?

2:37

So when we got a question along

2:39

these lines into the how-to hotline, I

2:41

knew I had to meet the woman

2:44

who sent it. I'm

2:48

Allison. I'm currently

2:50

in Washington state, but kind of

2:53

a new transplant to there. I'm

2:55

an attorney. I have two kids and

2:57

a husband and two dogs. So

3:00

Allison, what can we help you with? Just give us

3:02

a little sense of why you wrote in. Sure.

3:07

So I feel like although

3:09

I have a lot of things to do all

3:11

the time, none of it is a hobby.

3:16

Unless my hobby is like deciding what to make for dinner

3:18

or doing

3:20

the laundry. I don't feel like

3:22

I have that

3:24

space for myself

3:26

and I'm not sure what is impeding

3:29

me from finding that or from trying

3:32

to do something. I

3:34

feel like I can guess. I can

3:37

guess what's impeding you. That's

3:43

our expert, Eve Rodski. You'll

3:45

meet her in a second. But first, I

3:47

wanted to know what kinds of things Allison

3:49

liked to do before she had her big

3:51

job, got married and had kids. I

3:54

enjoyed cooking for the fun of

3:56

it. I would

3:58

enjoy going to, you know. new

4:01

places, restaurants or breweries

4:03

or kind of getting out

4:05

and exploring. And I mean, we still do that

4:08

to a degree, but it's not as

4:11

accessible. Okay, so what

4:13

if we go even further back in the

4:15

time machine? What did Allison enjoy

4:17

before life got all grown up and shit?

4:20

I played the clarinet in school and then I kind

4:22

of taught myself the flute and I played the piano.

4:25

I have always loved horses, so I took

4:27

horseback riding when I was younger. But

4:30

now in the present, Allison is

4:32

in a quandary. She wants to

4:34

tap back into a hobby, something

4:36

interesting, challenging fun. That's all

4:38

hers, you know, but life

4:41

is super full. I

4:44

just need help kind of figure out what

4:46

that barrier is or like maybe like the

4:48

courage to like try to do something and

4:51

kind of like stick with it also because we

4:53

are, I mean, my husband's in the army, so

4:56

we do move. So it's not something,

4:58

you know, like I can't get too invested in

5:00

one place and have a hobby that's particular to

5:03

one place. I need it to kind of be mobile. Also

5:06

be flexible in terms of when

5:08

that happens because most of the time it's going

5:10

to be in the evening when the kids have

5:12

gone to bed. All

5:16

right, so on today's show, we're going to

5:18

carve out the time to be creative. It's

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6:52

How do you know when to seize the moment

6:54

for growth? When the opportunity arrives, you need to

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be ready. That means future-proofing

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your business with a technology partner,

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like SAP, and embracing

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AI with confidence. My

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8:15

AI. Head to sap.com/be

8:19

ready to learn more. We're

8:23

back and now I get to introduce

8:26

you to today's expert. Hi,

8:28

my name is Eve Rodsky. I'm the

8:30

author of the New York Times bestseller,

8:32

Fair Play and Find Your Unicorn Space.

8:34

In those books, Eve helps couples rethink

8:37

how they divide labor and value each

8:39

other's time and maybe most importantly helps

8:41

them rethink all of that.

8:44

So many women feel stuck in

8:47

an endless loop of performing their

8:49

dominant roles, parent, partner, professional. So

8:51

many of us relate to this,

8:53

right? And we feel like we

8:55

don't have the time to cultivate our identity outside

8:57

of those three Ps. It's not just in our

9:00

heads. Even in 2023 in heterosexual relationships

9:03

in particular, the research shows

9:05

that women shoulder two thirds or more

9:08

of the unpaid domestic work and childcare

9:10

for their homes and families. But

9:13

it's not just equality that we

9:16

lose in these unequal relationships. It's

9:19

also, and this is kind of harder to

9:21

name. So you'll hear us grappling with it

9:23

in this episode. It's like meaning, fun, a

9:25

sense of freedom to explore and

9:28

reinvent and create on our own

9:30

terms. Now, Eve has a

9:32

lot to say on this. I

9:34

like to call it unicorn space, you know,

9:36

because it's the space to be magical, but

9:39

it doesn't fucking exist like

9:41

a unicorn unless you reclaim it, allowing you

9:43

to be consistently interested in your own life.

9:45

The time is not there for women. Like

9:48

wake up at 3 a.m., you know,

9:50

like sacrifice your health and your sleep

9:52

to get in your creative time. And

9:54

that really is not the answer. The

9:56

answer is a world in

9:58

which it's easier to. have a

10:00

community and to live and work. And so part of

10:02

the Fair Play movement is inviting

10:05

men into that invisible work of

10:07

caregiving with ownership so that you can get

10:10

some of your mental load back. And I

10:12

love Eve, part of what it feels like

10:14

you're saying is this is first and foremost

10:16

a structural issue, right? This is like a

10:19

outside of ourselves job. It also can

10:21

be an inside job, like the piece

10:23

of us that, you know, as we're

10:26

rushing around the house and our husband

10:28

sits down to like do the thing

10:30

he loves to do and we're like

10:32

tidying the kitchen or whatever. Like there

10:34

are these micro moments that for me

10:37

often represent, okay, this is my internalized

10:39

shit that I'm really frustrated that he's

10:41

getting his needs met when I'm just

10:44

as capable in this moment of sitting on the couch

10:46

and reading a book if that's what, you know, I

10:48

don't have a three-year-old. I have older children, Allison. There

10:50

is a moment when your children will let you sit

10:52

on the couch and read a book. There's

10:54

a promise. They're just on top of you right

10:57

now. So yeah, they are. Yeah, yeah,

10:59

they're still on top of you, but it's fine.

11:01

You know, just want to point out that sort

11:03

of outside inside dynamic of this topic. Is

11:06

that dynamic at play in your house and how

11:08

does that feel? It definitely is and

11:10

I will and I know this

11:12

is not what anyone is saying and I

11:14

will give disclaimer. My husband's great. He's very

11:16

helpful. Like fantastic offers to, you know, give

11:18

me the space that I want. It's just

11:21

figuring out what to do with it. I

11:23

think is my biggest concern, but like I

11:26

mean, he will I feel like my first, you

11:28

know, thought is like how we going to entertain the kids this

11:31

weekend? What are we going to do and his

11:34

again big football fans,

11:36

so like it's football season. So

11:39

college football, pro football. So

11:41

he wants to watch, you know, his respective

11:43

teams on the weekends. And so

11:47

some of our weekends will get shaped

11:49

by kind of what time those are

11:51

on again. He's great, but

11:54

but that is, you know, an overriding factor that

11:56

I feel like it's almost almost

11:58

a given that that. going

12:00

to happen between September

12:02

and December. And Allison, can I

12:05

pause you to say one thing about the he's great piece?

12:07

Eve and I are also married to great

12:09

men. Right, no. And that's why I figured

12:11

that's not. They are great. Yeah, we'll already

12:13

put that there. Can you give me any

12:15

one? Yes, yeah. OK,

12:20

as Allison and I fall over one

12:22

another trying to assert that our partners

12:24

aren't bad people, there's something Eve wants

12:26

to make sure you hear. It

12:30

is OK to talk about this. By

12:32

criticizing how we divide labor and time

12:34

in our relationships, we are not automatically

12:37

criticizing the person we share our lives

12:39

with. We want to

12:41

be able to talk about these assumptions,

12:43

again, about how we use our time.

12:46

But I think because it's so shameful to talk

12:48

about your partner, people are always going to say

12:50

to you, how dare you

12:53

criticize your partner? You're so lucky to

12:56

have his help. It's so much better than the

12:58

last generation. So I think we could just put

13:00

that aside. Well, Eve, I was going to say

13:02

men, in the same way, we've internalized some of

13:04

these ideas about what we should be prioritizing. Men

13:07

have internalized ideas about what kinds of

13:09

freedoms and prioritization they get to have.

13:12

So it's like no one's inherently

13:15

malicious. It's just like we're all trying to

13:17

figure this thing out and move each generation

13:20

forward a little bit on getting to be

13:22

whole people, right? Correct. OK, so you've got

13:24

the football game going. And

13:26

sometimes you're in the middle of that

13:28

wondering, OK, I want to

13:31

embrace his love of football. And I

13:33

also want to make sure the kids

13:35

are enriched and entertained and

13:38

they're having a great life. But I

13:40

sort of fade into the background on all of

13:42

that. Does that feel right? Yeah. I don't

13:44

want to say it's a waste of time, but in

13:46

a way, it almost feels like I

13:49

could be doing something else during that time.

13:52

I will say, since I talked

13:54

to Rosemary at the beginning, I have started

13:56

volunteering with a horse

13:59

therapy program. So

14:01

on Sunday mornings, Saturday or Sunday,

14:03

depending on, he watches

14:05

the kids. He's very like, get out of

14:08

here, I got this. So that is something

14:10

I've started doing in the past month or

14:12

so, which does get me out of the

14:14

house, which is great. And

14:17

so the listeners know Rosemary is our amazing

14:19

producer. So that's what Allison is referencing. Do

14:21

you feel like just saying it out loud?

14:23

Does someone in the way that you did

14:25

prompted you to sign up? About

14:27

the time I wrote in, I think

14:29

I really started to try to find something

14:31

here. So it probably did kind of flip

14:34

something in my brain to be like, I

14:36

need the space for me to

14:38

do something that I genuinely

14:40

enjoy. I mean, it's like

14:42

leading horses around or like mucking out the barn,

14:45

which is my husband.

14:47

He's like, why do you want to shovel poop?

14:49

I'm like, just like being

14:51

around horses makes me happy. So I don't

14:53

really care. But it's been,

14:55

I mean, it's been fantastic. It's a nice place

14:57

for me to be able to go and

15:00

just have like a couple of hours where

15:02

I'm still around people, but I'm definitely doing

15:04

it for myself. So

15:07

Allison, I want to ask you about that because a

15:09

lot of people I think have gotten sidetracked

15:12

by the happiness discussion, like they have to

15:14

be happy all the time. But really, the

15:17

true definition of mental health is having the

15:19

appropriate emotion at the appropriate time and

15:21

the ability and strength to weather it. So the

15:23

ability and strength to weather it, I will argue, is

15:25

this this extra time doing things that bring

15:27

you back to you, which is how you describe

15:30

the horse therapy program. So

15:32

I think what I'd like for listeners to also

15:34

do is understand what values

15:38

that you pull when you're doing that.

15:40

So I thought if you would be willing to be on the

15:42

spot and help us, I have

15:44

a list of values that we get stuck, but also

15:46

Courtney can jump in too. But I'd

15:48

love for you to give us five values and we'll

15:50

write them down and explore them. Oh,

15:53

gosh. Values. Contentment.

15:57

That's a good value. I want to be content. Yeah

16:02

Sustilment connection

16:05

connection. I love that like

16:08

I want to say calming but Peace

16:15

yeah, yeah calm inner calm

16:17

I'll say Courtney

16:22

do you have another value that listening

16:24

to Allison's story that you think comes

16:27

up for her? This

16:29

is real left field I was

16:31

imagining one of my best friends from

16:34

childhood Jenny clerk when she was 10

16:36

was obsessed with Cinque-tig some island where

16:38

a million horses live. I don't know

16:40

if you guys ever yeah I

16:43

grew up in Maryland, and it's right there, so that's why

16:45

yeah Her

16:48

wall had a poster with all those horses on

16:50

it And I think she did value a lot

16:52

of things you were saying But I think she

16:54

also had this sort of wild freedom fantasy about

16:56

horses like there was something kind of Exciting

16:58

about like riding a horse, so that's one option

17:01

like you can just hop on one and just

17:03

like yeah right off into the sunset

17:07

And my other one is more straightforward Which

17:09

is just healing it sounds like you strike

17:11

me as someone with a healing energy and

17:13

the structure of this program is oriented around

17:15

Healing and it's like you could have chosen

17:17

other horse related things to do So

17:19

I'm like maybe there's something about you that is

17:22

drawn to healing I think either of

17:24

those would be applicable so if you want to go for

17:26

a second we could do six I'm

17:31

also gonna say what seventh which I think

17:33

is this idea of presence

17:37

Yeah, like a like a focus a

17:39

focus exactly yeah, okay, yeah Okay,

17:42

I'd like for you to ask yourself

17:44

each week. Did I get a chance

17:46

to feel? True connection

17:48

this week not just

17:50

caretaking connection again with being a little

17:52

one But like real connection with other

17:54

humans on my level did I

17:57

get a chance to feel intercom this week

17:59

that I? Did I get a chance to feel any

18:01

freedom this week? Did I get

18:03

a chance to feel any healing this week for myself? Did

18:06

I get a chance to focus? That

18:08

at least once a week, you're focusing on one of those

18:10

values. Here's

18:13

our first takeaway. Living

18:15

a life aligned with your values is

18:17

how you find individual fulfillment. But

18:20

you first need to know what the heck

18:22

those values are. When you

18:24

pick a new creative pursuit, make sure you're not

18:26

just checking the box, living into

18:28

one of your values. If

18:32

I was struck by that list thinking all

18:34

of those, from my experience of having toddlers,

18:36

and I will say I frickin'

18:39

love a toddler. Like the discovery of the world,

18:41

and you know, there's just so much sweetness and

18:43

intimacy. I don't, I don't. But yes, we can

18:45

disagree. I

18:48

do love a toddler. We can debate. But

18:52

those values are not what you naturally get

18:54

to live out when you're the mother of

18:56

a toddler. Do you find, Eve,

18:59

that when you do this exercise with people, they often

19:01

list things that are like

19:03

structurally very challenging at the moment that they are

19:06

in their life? Absolutely. At

19:08

that moment? Absolutely. Yeah, and that's why it

19:10

becomes very triggering, right? This idea that, wait

19:12

a second. These things that I actually

19:14

really value, or at

19:16

least I can back into them because the

19:18

activity I've chosen to fight for has

19:21

these values attached to it. I don't get

19:23

to practice in my daily life. And

19:26

I think that's where this idea

19:28

of a boundary becomes so difficult

19:31

for women, right? Because as a society,

19:33

this gets back to the structural. We've

19:36

chosen to value men's

19:38

time as if it's

19:40

diamonds, right? As if it's finite. And

19:42

men have internalized that. And we treat women's time

19:45

as if it's sad, if it's infinite, that we

19:47

can find the time. That's often

19:49

when we don't get that focus or presence

19:51

or freedom or healing or intercom because these

19:54

messages of conditioning, like in the time it takes

19:56

me to tell him, her, they, I

19:59

need that space. I should just do it

20:01

myself and I'll do it after I'm done with

20:03

cleaning, focusing, taking care of the toddlers and then

20:05

you're too tired. Or you say to yourself, I'm

20:07

a better multitasker. They'll never see that they need

20:10

to bring, we need to bring fancy

20:12

hats for fancy hat day. And so I

20:14

might as well go to Party City right

20:16

now instead of do my horse therapy. Or

20:18

you say to yourself, my

20:20

partner's job is more important or my

20:23

job is more flexible. We start to

20:25

breach our boundaries in these really deep

20:27

and depressing ways because society has conditioned

20:29

us to. So that's

20:31

why I like the values because I do think anchoring

20:35

yourself in an activity is important. And we, again,

20:37

we're gonna fight for that activity. But anchoring yourself

20:39

in your values to say, I'm doing this because

20:41

I deserve a chance to feel

20:43

connection this week. I deserve a

20:45

chance to feel focused this week and presence and

20:48

freedom and healing. And so I'm

20:50

gonna hold my boundary. That's

20:52

often easier when

20:54

we have a society that pushes back

20:57

against women's time in such a triggering

21:00

and sort of depressing way. I

21:05

love this point. So I just wanna underscore

21:07

it. Time is finite

21:10

for everybody, not just men

21:13

or the primary breadwinner or the partner

21:15

who is better grabbing time in the

21:17

Google calendar. However you figure your shit

21:19

out, we all deserve time for exploration

21:21

and delight on our own. If

21:24

you find yourself or your partner treating

21:26

your time as less valuable, name it

21:28

and unlearn it. What

21:31

was the conversation like with your husband? Did you say, like,

21:33

is this something you guys have been talking about for a

21:35

while that you wanted to create this space? And so when

21:37

you brought it up, you know, it

21:40

wasn't the hardest conversation. How did that play out?

21:42

Yeah, it really wasn't a challenge.

21:44

We, like, he was like, you need time

21:46

for you. I remember when I volunteered

21:48

in Pennsylvania, he was like, I have like

21:50

never seen you happier than you are when

21:52

you come home right now. So like

21:54

he understands and he appreciates like how important

21:56

that is for me. I think that's more

21:59

of my. and what Eve said

22:01

really resonated, it's like, nope,

22:03

you're gonna forget to do that, or you're not

22:06

gonna do that. And just me anticipating all these

22:08

other needs that need to get

22:10

done, that it's very easy

22:12

for me to be like, I'll just do

22:14

it next week. So that's the reason

22:16

that getting out of the house and going

22:18

to a finite activity at a specified time

22:20

is very helpful for me. It's

22:24

genuinely wonderful that Allison already has a partner

22:26

that gets it. On some level, he just

22:29

understands and he's carving out this time for

22:31

her, but what if you're not there yet?

22:34

Finding time actually requires three

22:36

critical permissions. First, ask

22:39

for what you want. You and your partner need

22:41

to have an honest conversation about

22:43

your needs. Create a system where you

22:45

have consistent time slots. Second,

22:48

be unavailable. That

22:51

sounds so weird to me as a

22:53

working mom, but it's true, be unavailable.

22:55

This is keeping your boundaries. If your

22:57

boundaries tend to crumble, bring in

22:59

an accountability partner. Studies show

23:01

that if you have someone who you're accountable

23:03

to, you're 66% more likely to keep up

23:06

with it. And finally, and

23:08

this might be a whopper, I know it

23:10

can be for me, let go of your

23:12

internal guilt. I'm not trying

23:14

to be flippant. This is a lifetime's work for

23:16

some of us, but as such, we

23:18

might as well get started. I

23:21

wanna ask you a little bit about the consistency

23:23

in your relationship to guilt and shame. Let's

23:26

just do a little exercise. Like if the kids'

23:28

school was calling you right now, Alison,

23:31

and we told you not to pick

23:33

up your phone, what's

23:37

going on? Do you have a stress

23:39

response in your body? If your child

23:41

sort of expressed discomfort at,

23:43

say, your boundary, like, mom, please don't

23:46

go this week, or there's

23:48

a really important birthday party, how

23:51

likely would you be to change

23:53

your behavior to

23:55

prioritize that other person's behavior? I'm just,

23:57

I'll ask it that way. That's

24:00

a catch 22 for

24:02

me, because obviously I

24:04

want to fulfill whatever

24:06

emotional needs my my kid

24:08

has, but at the same time, I don't

24:11

want my kids to not do

24:14

that for themselves. So I want to I

24:16

love that. I

24:20

want to model for them that it is

24:22

important for them to do

24:24

what they feel like they need to do to be

24:26

fulfilled. So I don't I don't want

24:28

to be the reason that they feel that they

24:30

don't have that space. But of course, I also

24:33

want to make sure that they're getting what they

24:35

need. So I think that's

24:37

so important. What you just said, because again,

24:39

we're giving you tools, or we're all here,

24:41

we're all practicing tools to

24:44

keep our boundaries. And so

24:46

besides your values, I think that's another beautiful

24:49

way to hold that boundary. Yeah,

24:51

that gave me chills because I like

24:53

that is like generational work, right? So

24:55

many of us had mothers who theoretically

24:59

wanted to have equal marriages and

25:01

equal parenting arrangements,

25:03

and it did not

25:05

play out. And so as kids, we're reading the

25:07

room more than what's being said. And we're like,

25:09

Okay, so that means I need

25:12

to make sure I get the right party hats for

25:14

the thing at school, etc. So I'm

25:16

just so moved by that, Alison, because I

25:19

do think that's like our generation's work is

25:21

like, how do we actually internalize these things

25:23

in a way that our kids watch us

25:25

doing it instead of us just saying

25:28

the right things at the dinner table or whatever. All

25:32

right, we're going to take a quick break

25:34

to ponder that generational work. But when we

25:36

come back, we're going to talk about how

25:39

to keep your boundaries inside the home, because

25:41

that is a whole different beast. See

25:43

you in a second. This

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by state law. Hey, everybody. It's

27:26

Tim Heidecker. You know me, Tim and

27:28

Eric, bridesmaids and fantastic core. I'd

27:31

like to personally invite you to listen to Office

27:33

Hours Live with me and my co-host DJ

27:35

Doug Pound. Hello. And Vic Berger. Howdy.

27:37

Every week we bring you laughs, fun,

27:39

games, and lots of other surprises. It's

27:42

live. We take your Zoom calls. We

27:44

love having fun. Excuse me? Vic said

27:46

something. Music. Music. We're

28:01

back with Eve Rodsky, author of

28:03

the books, Fair Play and Find

28:05

Your Unicorn Space, and our listener,

28:07

Allison. Before the break, Allison

28:09

was telling us how she started carving out

28:11

her creative space with the Horse Therapy Program.

28:14

However, she needs something that's a

28:16

little more flexible. As

28:19

Eve was talking about, you know, kind

28:21

of reversing the lens and looking at it

28:23

from the values backwards to finding

28:25

a hobby, I think that's where my

28:27

challenge is because it's 9 p.m.

28:30

and you that's when

28:32

you have time. And what I'll do

28:34

is I'll start reading and like five

28:36

pages in like I'm out, I'm asleep.

28:39

So I think the challenge for me

28:41

is especially maybe trying to

28:43

channel those values backwards to a time

28:45

and space that's not

28:49

elsewhere, that's not out of the

28:51

house, that it's finding that for

28:53

myself here when I

28:55

do have, you know, the

28:57

hour or two to do something.

29:01

I don't know, Eve. I'm

29:03

a disaster inside the house. Yes, I

29:06

hate inside the house. And I work

29:08

from home. I'm the worst version of

29:10

myself inside my home, exactly. I mean,

29:12

first, Allison, have you experimented inside the

29:14

house at all with, you

29:17

know, what you called hobbies and what you might

29:19

encourage us to call a unicorn space? I

29:23

feel like I haven't. I

29:25

will blame it on moving in the past

29:28

six months. But to be honest, like also

29:31

not, you know, in

29:34

the time before we moved. And

29:36

I think this is another challenge that I think I

29:39

kind of wrote about in my

29:41

initial email. I feel like

29:43

if I'm going to spend time doing something, I have to

29:45

be good at it. And maybe that's just my like perfectionist

29:48

nature. So like, if

29:50

I were to like pick up one of my instruments

29:53

again, like, I haven't practiced

29:55

in like 15 years. Like, it's not like I'm

29:57

going to be good at it. And I know

29:59

that rationally. brain but I'm like well then why

30:01

am I love

30:19

that so much is because it feels like you fed

30:21

sort of the science just we

30:23

see that women who

30:26

don't have what again we call this unicorn

30:28

space creative time and we can

30:30

also talk about it in terms of the three

30:32

things you need to have a unicorn space why

30:35

it's not just self-care or

30:37

a friend over its curiosity

30:41

connection and completion. Okay

30:43

let's repeat this because I think it's

30:45

really important there are three main components

30:47

to this kind of space you need

30:49

a combo of all three but one

30:51

can really drive you. Are

30:53

you ready for them again? Alright

30:56

number one curiosity number

30:58

two connection and number

31:00

three completion the cat

31:02

recording me loves that third one. I

31:05

actually thought when we started to research

31:07

why people couldn't sort of

31:09

find the space right the initial question for

31:12

why Allison's with us today you

31:14

know how do you carve out time

31:16

for yourself above just maybe a walk

31:18

around the block was because

31:20

people forgot what what was they

31:23

loved. I really thought

31:25

that that would be the thesis I would be

31:27

answering but what was so interesting for women especially

31:29

high-performing women or women who had a college

31:32

degree and up was of the

31:35

three C's that we need to have

31:37

this space actually help us

31:39

whether that mental health that we talked

31:41

about earlier ironically it

31:43

wasn't the curiosity it was a

31:45

completion and it's

31:48

exactly what you said what's the point of

31:51

doing something if it's not

31:53

perfect it was exactly that sentiment so I

31:55

must feel like you set us up because

31:57

if you're someone a listener out there and

32:00

you may also be a parent or

32:02

a partner or professional, and you

32:04

have a college degree, you

32:07

also may be in Alison's boat, where

32:09

this idea was I had this little

32:11

dream, Eve, to start a podcast, but

32:14

it's not gonna get on the Apple,

32:16

like 10 best podcast list. Okay, but

32:19

you had to think about what you want your podcast

32:21

to be about. Say

32:23

it's, you know, eclectic dance. You had to reach out

32:25

to an eclectic dancer to interview. You

32:28

had to record it, edit it, and

32:30

upload it somewhere. That's

32:32

a curiosity, connection, and completion cycle that

32:35

helps us with long-term dopamine that unfortunately,

32:38

edibles and binge-watching doesn't.

32:41

And so that cycle over and over again is what's

32:43

gonna get us there. But if you're going to stop

32:46

because you don't think you're perfect

32:49

and that's what completion means, then

32:51

we're never gonna get anywhere. So that's

32:53

what I actually love about instruments. Could

32:56

you, again, because that's something where, even

32:58

if you're interrupted, your kids could

33:01

be around when you're doing it. What

33:03

would it look like to sort of pick up a ukulele or

33:07

a flute again? I wonder, you

33:09

know, for you, if that could

33:11

be another interesting showcase

33:14

for this curiosity, connection, and completion

33:16

cycle that we're talking about. Or

33:19

would you feel that barrier because you forgot

33:21

how to read music? Would that feel too

33:23

daunting and you want to move on to

33:25

something else? I wonder, how are you feeling

33:27

about either or? I

33:29

don't feel like it would be daunting. And

33:35

my particular challenge is the guitar because I've

33:37

tried to teach myself. I feel like numerous

33:39

times over the years and I've never gotten

33:41

past a point. And so I

33:43

guess it's a little discouraging maybe. Well,

33:46

I guess my question to you is, if

33:48

exactly like you said, you didn't get past that

33:50

point, would you feel like it

33:53

wasn't worth it because your completion point of

33:56

just learning the chords A, C, and E

33:59

was actually a worry. list task because

34:01

that completion point didn't feel farther,

34:03

farther along for you. Or is

34:05

there a way to sort of

34:07

reframe to say, we

34:09

can change your completion point to say maybe for

34:12

the guitar, it's literally just learning a

34:15

song that has the A in the G chord

34:17

or something like that. I

34:19

think it's I think it's moving kind of the

34:22

barometer of what we consider

34:24

completion. I think that is a

34:26

is a way for me to

34:29

better reframe it, you know, making

34:31

smaller milestones or

34:33

smaller things to be

34:35

considered complete as opposed to being

34:37

completely, you know, amazing

34:41

at something. I

34:43

love that. What also made me

34:45

think couldn't Allison say, honey, can

34:47

you like take the kids out

34:49

to dinner Thursday nights? Yeah.

34:52

And then you're in your house by yourself

34:54

playing the flute. Actually last

34:56

weekend, my husband took our

34:58

three year old up to see the

35:01

Nutcracker Ballet. And so our one

35:03

year old, I hired the babysitter to come watch him so

35:05

I could go to my horse therapy

35:09

last weekend. So I mean, I am

35:11

very, Allison, you're awesome. We love you.

35:16

You're a two point out. But

35:18

I mean, I know that not everyone has that

35:20

flexibility. You know, I know that that's

35:23

not an option. But I do

35:25

think you're two point out. You are

35:27

two point out for sure. And in

35:29

a way that I think is important,

35:31

right? Because I actually think you're a

35:33

lot farther along than so many people

35:35

that we've interviewed. I mean, I

35:37

appreciate the two point out. I feel like that's a compliment.

35:41

But it's definitely taken, you know,

35:43

three plus years to kind

35:45

of or longer to kind

35:47

of get to that point where

35:49

I was willing to do this. You know, I we

35:53

moved to Georgia a month later. I had

35:56

my daughter six months later, my husband went on rotation

35:58

to Korea and it was covered. So

36:01

I just wanted to kind of let people

36:03

know like it's not like a quick process.

36:05

Like it is taking a long time and a

36:08

lot of kind of draining out

36:11

of me to be able to like

36:13

recognize that like I really do need

36:15

this sort of space. So I just

36:18

wanted to kind of say that. I

36:23

really appreciate Allison's candor here. It's

36:25

such a good reminder that carving

36:27

out time for yourself isn't easy.

36:29

It can require tough conversations between

36:31

partners as discussed. It can

36:33

require sort of an internal fortitude that some

36:35

of us don't find totally

36:37

natural and most foundational

36:40

of all. It requires time

36:42

and resources. So

36:44

up until this point, we've covered reviving

36:47

old passions. But how the heck do

36:49

you find something new that will nourish

36:51

your soul? The most important thing

36:53

I will say when

36:55

you're starting is to ask

36:58

yourself of those three C's, what

37:01

is most important to you? So I'll ask

37:03

you that question because again,

37:05

I'd love for listeners to be able to do that.

37:08

So if you think to again, we're talking about long

37:11

term mental health here.

37:14

But what we want you to get to is a

37:16

place where you have a dopamine explosion in your head

37:18

that says to you, I can't believe I just did

37:20

that. That's what

37:22

we're trying to get to because ultimately that type of

37:25

practice, if I can't believe I just did that, is

37:27

a very exciting practice. So when

37:30

you can back into that's

37:32

what we want for you. That's our gift, right? Eventually

37:34

it's going to be something in one of

37:37

these areas where you're like, I can't fucking believe I

37:39

just did that. Not the, you know, after

37:41

you binge watch, you're like, I can't believe I just did that. So

37:44

it's a different intonation. I can't believe I just did

37:46

that. And so part of that is again,

37:49

the cycle of those three things where you

37:51

need curiosity, connection and completion. So I will

37:53

ask you what is most interesting to you

37:56

right now. My

37:58

rational lawyer brain goes to you. to completion, but

38:00

that's not honestly, that's not like a,

38:02

I don't feel like that's a soul

38:04

like affirming saying that's more

38:06

of like my brain. I think

38:10

the curiosity. I love it.

38:12

I mean, the connection is always is nice.

38:15

But I think it's more for

38:17

me an internal thing that I

38:19

would like to develop as

38:22

opposed to the other two. So

38:25

I love that. So that's where if

38:27

you want to start, then understand that

38:29

this idea of being a lifelong learner,

38:31

being curious about things is one

38:34

of the most important things like

38:36

how to wonder is something

38:38

that we actually can't do when we have

38:41

directed thinking. So I

38:44

will say diffuse thinking time we now

38:46

know is the best time to get

38:48

curious. So your

38:50

prescription again for this how to

38:52

start, we still want you to continue on with

38:54

your other unicorn spaces because they bring in the

38:56

inner calm, the freedom, the healing, the presence and

38:58

the focus which you deserve. So

39:00

that's not going away. But again, to get greedy

39:03

and to get more curiosity in your

39:05

life for you, we

39:07

want you to start getting into few thinking

39:10

environments. So whether that's an

39:12

hour long shower where you've tripled

39:14

off your door or environment maybe

39:16

more environmentally friendly than using all that water

39:18

would be like an hour where

39:20

you need that prescription or diffuse thinking time

39:22

every week. That

39:25

means getting off our cell phones. That's a big

39:27

piece of the enemy against that kind of thinking

39:29

is all of us on our phones all the

39:31

time. I have one I

39:34

often talk about and I still like this

39:36

framing, but I talk about doing small weird

39:38

projects. This is like

39:40

all my friends know this about me that I love

39:43

to do small weird projects. But I had a friend

39:45

recently and this is how you can tell I have

39:47

really good friends who said to me, you know, I've

39:49

been thinking about that phrase you always use. Why is

39:51

it small, weird projects? Like it

39:54

feels like you're sort of like

39:56

reducing the value and the importance of

39:58

what it is. I want

40:00

to tell you the opposite. I do

40:03

not agree. Okay. First of all,

40:05

small is important for goal setting. So I

40:07

love that. I think all of us, it

40:09

could always level up, Courtney, but I love

40:11

your idea of small. I think

40:13

weird is a value. And I

40:16

think it's a wonderful, beautiful value to not,

40:18

you know, sort of be in line with

40:20

all the things that women need to be.

40:22

Obviously, I love the word project because it

40:25

has a discrete ending, which is a curiosity,

40:27

connection, and completion cycle. So I

40:29

actually think the only thing I would say about a

40:31

small weird project is that it wouldn't have

40:33

the desired effect that we're looking for here,

40:35

these long term mental health, if you keep

40:38

it to yourself. Hmm.

40:41

That's interesting. So the sharing with

40:43

the world component, unfortunately, is

40:46

actually really important. And it's why, you

40:48

know, that was the hardest thing for

40:50

me, because writing, I wanted

40:52

to write for myself, I wanted to create

40:54

fair play for myself. There's all these things

40:56

I wanted to do for myself. But unfortunately,

40:58

that doesn't do it. So again,

41:01

the sharing with the world component is

41:04

a big piece of the fear. It's how

41:06

we all level up. I also

41:08

like that because the contagion effect of like,

41:11

if I'm weird in public, or

41:13

playful, or like all the things we're talking

41:15

about, then other women are like, well, Courtney,

41:18

you know, posted that weird thing that didn't seem

41:20

all that great. Like, that's why do I have

41:23

to be such a perfectionist about everything? And it's

41:25

pretty good. And they're permission. Exactly. It shows you

41:27

that completion that it's worthy, it gets back to

41:29

what Allison, you said earlier, is it actually worth

41:31

it? I would love

41:33

for all the time that we spend on ourselves

41:36

for us to inherently believe it's worth it. Even

41:38

if it ends up is that, you know, as Courtney

41:40

says, a small weird project, it

41:43

was worth it. Because it meant

41:45

something to you and you held your boundary.

41:47

That practice is worth it. I

41:50

also hear, Allison, I don't know if this resonates

41:52

for you, but that you're, you're looking in terms

41:54

of starting the new thing to surprise

41:57

yourself, right? Like, I don't know about you guys, but

41:59

I get sick of my. like I'm like, please surprise

42:01

me. You know, so it's like, I like to do

42:03

things that I'm like, I never thought I'd be a

42:05

this person. And so I'm kind

42:07

of fantasizing for you some unicorn

42:10

space that you're like, you know, I

42:12

never in a million years thought that

42:14

I would do this, but like here

42:16

I am. And that's just like part

42:18

of the like, verve of being alive

42:20

is surprising yourself, right? Something

42:22

that has always like fascinated

42:25

me is pottery. Because I always

42:27

thought it would be super fun I've

42:30

never sat at a pottery wheel. I just

42:32

think that would be very satisfying

42:34

in a way to do something tactile.

42:36

Unfortunately, and unfortunately the beauty of that.

42:40

So we need you to go

42:42

find a place to take a class, to

42:44

touch clay or you know what,

42:47

even back up, go

42:49

to the library, ask them

42:51

to find different types of pottery books because there's so

42:53

many different types. And then you can

42:56

decide which one, you know, sounds interesting to you. But

42:58

even carrying around a book around pottery is

43:00

gonna make people be like, what is

43:02

this person? This amazing, interesting person. I

43:04

also hate to bring it back to

43:06

reality TV, but my friend just told

43:09

me the nicest reality show on television

43:11

is about pottery. Oh wow. I

43:13

don't know what it's called, we have to look it up, but

43:15

it's like something about a bunch of people who compete against each

43:17

other to make those stuff. Amazing. You

43:20

can go hedonic, wellbeing, binge watching,

43:23

but actually it has the dopamine response

43:26

of unicorn space. So we love it. Maybe you start

43:28

with that show. Yeah, it's on Mac. It's on Mac.

43:31

I cannot thank the two of you and

43:33

us. I just wish we could like hang

43:36

out now and ride horses into some field

43:38

and have a drink. You two are so

43:40

wonderful. Allison, thank you so much for writing

43:42

to us. Even though

43:45

you're advanced, we're still very grateful that maybe

43:47

we helped you a little bit. And Eve,

43:49

it's always such a pleasure to spend any kind of

43:51

time with you. So thank you for doing this. Thank

43:54

you, Courtney, for fighting for the structural barriers

43:56

that prevent us from having this

43:58

space and Allison. Thank

44:00

you for your vulnerability and sharing. It's

44:03

been wonderful getting to know you over this past

44:05

hour. Yeah. Thank you both so much I really

44:07

enjoyed this it was it was very helpful and we'll

44:09

see you know what I can do with it All

44:20

right, thanks to Allison for reaching out

44:23

to us and sparking this fantastic conversation

44:25

And thanks to Eve for

44:27

always keeping it so real and being

44:29

so skilled at offering practical frames for

44:31

transforming our lives And

44:34

by the way, if you're looking for that

44:36

pottery show we talked about it's called the

44:38

great pottery throwdown Give it a watch. Tell

44:40

us what you think I'm definitely going to

44:42

now do you have a

44:44

horse unicorn or otherwise a coin problem?

44:47

We can solve send us a note

44:49

at how to at slate comm or

44:51

leave us a voicemail at six four six

44:53

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44:55

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44:57

show And if you like what

44:59

you heard today, please give us a rating and a review and

45:01

tell a friend that helps us help

45:04

more people How to's

45:06

executive producer is Derek John Joel Meyer

45:08

is our senior editor The show is

45:11

produced by Rosemary Belson with Kevin Bendis

45:13

Merritt Jacob is senior technical director Charles

45:16

do Higg created the show Carvel

45:18

Wallace is my co-host. I'm

45:20

Courtney Merton. Thank you for listening You

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