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1:00

Hey, how to listeners. We're off this week,

1:02

but we wanted to bring you one of

1:04

our favorites from the archives. Sam Sifton, the

1:07

founding editor of New York Times Cooking, teaches

1:09

a kitchen newbie how to make one perfect

1:11

meal. It's super fun, and you can

1:13

even cook along. There's a recipe in the show notes.

1:16

So without further ado, I'm going to turn the

1:18

mic over to former host Charles Duhigg. Happy

1:20

cooking. What's the

1:23

one thing Johnny can do that will

1:25

blow her mind? The plates that

1:28

he serves on, they're going to be warm. Nine

1:31

times out of 10, ex-boyfriends

1:33

trying to impress their girlfriends, make

1:35

their hot food and then put it

1:37

on cold plates. It's a little shivery

1:39

and it's just a bad look. That

1:42

and napkins. Napkins? Yeah.

1:45

I mean, I can see in your eyes,

1:47

Charles, you're making me out. It's like Alan

1:49

Aldo here, like Mr. Sensitive. But I'm telling

1:51

you that a cloth napkin sends a message

1:54

that you're not a bad guy. Welcome

1:58

to How To. I'm Charles Duhigg. Each

2:01

week we talk to listeners who are trying

2:03

to figure out how to solve one of

2:05

life's big problems, like how to withstand

2:07

pain or how to fire a bad employee. Then

2:10

we do some research and we track down an

2:13

expert and we learn how to solve the problem.

2:18

This week we're headed to Brooklyn in the

2:20

apartment of Johnny Levin. Here's the doorbell. Hey,

2:22

hey, how you doing? Welcome to my home.

2:25

Hey, I'm Charles. Johnny, nice to meet you. Nice to meet

2:28

you. This is it. Johnny's

2:30

originally from Chicago, but he came to New

2:32

York eight years ago to study film and

2:35

television at NYU. And

2:37

how old are you? I'm 26. Okay. If

2:40

I was talking to your roommates and asking them to describe you,

2:42

what would they say? Messy,

2:45

especially when it comes to cooking. Just

2:47

like, it's kind of like

2:49

a nuclear explosion. Like, everything goes

2:51

everywhere. The

2:55

thing is, Johnny's got a lot of great qualities. But

2:58

he says there's one area where he could really

3:00

use some work. Yes. He needs to

3:02

up his game in the kitchen. Just

3:05

to become a better cook. There's

3:08

a catalyzing moment for me, which

3:10

was I was sitting on my couch in

3:12

my living room with my ex-girlfriend and my

3:14

roommate had his friend Brian over who was

3:16

visiting from out of town. And

3:19

Brian was cooking breakfast and

3:21

he was dazzling. He was

3:23

doing that thing where he's shaking the pan and

3:25

it's also like above the fire, like fresh and

3:28

tossing it up and down. And

3:30

my girlfriend was just staring at him, like

3:33

mouth open, just amazed. And I

3:35

think especially in contrast

3:37

to my difficulties. And I

3:39

was just like, I want to be like Brian.

3:42

He just has so much control. He

3:44

has confidence in himself. My

3:47

ex-girlfriend, she could cut vegetables like bam, bam,

3:50

bam, bam, bam, bam. And she didn't

3:52

leave you for Brian. She didn't leave me for Brian.

3:54

Luckily, Brian lives across the country. But a week later,

3:56

she was like, I talked about Brian in therapy and

3:58

I was like, Oh So

6:00

why are we talking in code here? And

6:03

then she also said, struggles with kitchen slang. Like

6:05

what a clove of garlic means. So

6:07

you texted your girlfriend recently to ask about

6:09

it? Yeah, yeah, in preparation for this. Okay.

6:12

So you guys are still on time? Yeah, yeah, we're still

6:14

on time. And are you like hoping that like if you

6:17

are better in the kitchen you're gonna like rekindle the flame

6:19

or? Uh, who knows? Who

6:21

knows? Okay. Maybe this

6:23

is my fatal flaw so once it's corrected I

6:26

don't know. You're on fire. Yeah.

6:29

She won't be able to turn you down. Exactly.

6:32

So, we decided to help Johnny get better

6:35

in the kitchen by talking to this guy.

6:37

I'm Sam Sipton. I'm the food editor of

6:39

the New York Times and the founding editor

6:41

of NYT Cooking. When

6:44

we come back, we'll see if Sam can help Johnny

6:46

win back his girlfriend. Or

6:48

at least cook a chicken all the way through.

6:51

He's just got to be confident about that and he's

6:53

not looking to make some really over

6:55

the top impressive meal. He's just gonna make

6:57

a really good meal and feel good about

6:59

it and deliver it to someone he cares

7:01

about and everything's gonna be okay. This

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8:55

You're You're a man who knows food. My

8:57

know, a couple same be here or there

8:59

and Sam Sifton is the Food Editor of

9:02

the New York Times. any the papers from

9:04

a restaurant critic that's a tough job to

9:06

complain about. v these the other a number

9:08

of amazing cookbooks. my boys actually love it.

9:10

In other words, Sam's a guy who knows

9:12

his way around the kitchen. But what's amazing

9:14

about his writing and his recipes? As you

9:16

never see like he's a snob. Another

9:19

chef under circular joe. I'm a reporter who

9:21

happens to cover the stuff and I'm a

9:23

critical. Happens to think about it a lot

9:25

but I'm not dissimilar from most people who

9:27

cook it. Another see why we wanted to

9:30

talk to you is because. Is.

9:32

This young guy reached out to us and

9:34

see i'm he is a lady friends that

9:37

he's hoping to address and this guy is

9:39

a terrible cook. Like Love, he like lead.

9:41

He doesn't know what he's doing. the kitchen

9:43

which is not that totally dissimilar from me.

9:46

I'm us. The Fifty Six assists the study.

9:48

You have a lot of people. Yeah, so

9:50

so not true for most of them. They

9:52

think they're terrible Cox but. It.

9:54

Is there something they know how to

9:57

do and if they can access the

9:59

confidence that. They have when they're

10:01

making popcorn or mixing up that

10:03

weird cereal and yogurt concoction or

10:05

whatever it is. Access that continents

10:07

and you're going to be able

10:10

to cook that closer meal you're

10:12

looking for with your special friend.

10:14

I. Asked him who I should mention his

10:17

happily married now and has kids but

10:19

I asked when he was young. like

10:21

how did he try and impress other

10:23

people in the kitchen? I never had

10:25

a sort of go to like. You.

10:27

Know I make them The put Cada and it

10:29

came out. I wish.was

10:32

a case but it but it's not

10:34

on. I was as I'm arguing other

10:36

should, seeking self confidence in the kitchen

10:39

so that I could serve a delicious

10:41

meal that would bring happiness to the

10:43

to someone else. So my game was

10:45

what is the what's the sort of

10:48

simplest impressive thing that I can pull

10:50

off? So it's this. Actually it brings

10:52

up the first question which is when

10:55

is the right time to to try

10:57

make. Him a meal for someone. I'm.

11:00

I'm. Not generally in the business of. I'm

11:02

often of the businesses throwing saunders.

11:04

Gonna say third day snacking that

11:06

are tired. Date Minimum: Okay, I'm

11:09

thinking that's the safest. There

11:12

you have it seems. First rule is

11:14

don't even a hint. To

11:16

cook a meal until you're thirty. Johnny

11:18

is nervous about this so we're going

11:20

to keep this as simple as possible.

11:23

So we're going to make skin on

11:25

phone in circumcise So chicken thighs that

11:27

we're going to go. That's our protein

11:29

when I'm when we're not gonna do

11:32

like an order know appetizer know now

11:34

you might have a bowl and not

11:36

okay. For what Johnny needs his confidence.

11:38

he got in touch with you because

11:41

he some lousy cooker thinks he's a

11:43

lousy cook. rice trim So maybe what

11:45

he heard was. I'd like a really

11:47

complicated meal and I'd like there to be

11:49

all the stuff and there's a champagne and

11:52

is gonna be orders we would. Started going

11:54

to do a tasting menu. know. This

11:57

is an actual if you want to cook at least

11:59

one. The oh really well you need

12:02

to know some basics about food

12:04

rise to more than anything else

12:06

you need. Confidence. And

12:08

the best way to do that is

12:10

to be a master of his surroundings

12:13

now cats. Not to have too much

12:15

going on but to know the points.

12:17

He's gonna sit and he can hit

12:20

this. Main course of the chicken, starch

12:22

and vegetable serves this amazing melted cheese

12:24

because. Ninety percent of people eat

12:26

their cheese cold from the fridge, but

12:29

here we're going to have it room

12:31

temperature and oozing and melting. Very sensual

12:33

and that's pretty good luck. Yeah, And

12:36

then a playful touch at the end

12:38

up with a desert which are give

12:40

you have it's parker some works every

12:42

time. Okay so it's going back to

12:45

Johnny. I'm gonna give him the Sam

12:47

Sifton Self Improvement confidence building prepped speech.

12:50

And. Then he has actually make a be

12:52

he thought yeah it's okay so he's

12:54

got chicken is bought some chicken breasts

12:56

known how see already you're scrolling johnny

12:58

with So the problem with the breasts

13:00

is it's really easy to overcook a

13:02

chicken broth of many of the dry

13:04

sought us de ray white meat scenario

13:07

and that's just not a recipe for

13:09

a when okay going chicken thighs which

13:11

are fatty or more forgiving. More.

13:13

Flavor. Cheaper. Not

13:15

for nothing. On and and and to

13:18

my mind, infinitely more delicious. Okay, okay,

13:20

so we've got chicken sesame as the

13:22

chickenpox. Now for a starch, we're gonna

13:25

go with rice. That's

13:27

it. That's that. That. Said it's gonna

13:29

be perfect Rice. And. I know

13:31

he's nervous about that, but he's gonna

13:33

go to Delay Ancestry and buy rice

13:35

cooker and that's gonna stand. I'm in

13:38

good stead for the rest of his

13:40

life. Whatever happens on this date? a

13:42

rice cooker is a relatively inexpensive piece

13:44

of technology that has one job to

13:46

make perfect rice if it does it

13:48

every single time. sir

13:51

john he didn't actually have a result set is

13:53

i who went out and i bought one for

13:55

him and then i came back and then and

13:57

he headed into his kitchen and get started Are

14:03

we supposed to wash the rice before we cook

14:05

the rice? I think

14:07

I kind of remember that. Johnny's

14:10

Kitchen is pretty small and it's

14:12

very very bare. It's about

14:14

what you would expect from like a 26 year old guy

14:16

who lives in a shared apartment. There's

14:18

a bottle of gin in the freezer and it's

14:20

next to this chili that Johnny's mom sent him

14:23

in 2017. But

14:26

the kitchen does have a microwave. Okay,

14:29

my microwave is busted and it's

14:31

busted because I used to use

14:33

it as a timer but I didn't

14:35

use the timer function. I would still have

14:37

it operate with

14:40

nothing in it and it kind of went

14:43

kerplunk and it's a beautiful big microwave. So

14:45

you fried your own microwave by using it

14:47

as a timer when you would actually run

14:49

the microwave empty in order to use the

14:51

timer function? Correct. Have you told

14:53

your landlord yet that you fried their... I

14:56

am trying to make it seem like it's

14:58

their fault. This is another rule. Don't

15:00

run an empty microwave because you're too lazy to

15:02

get a real timer. Also don't

15:05

let your landlord listen to this podcast. So

15:12

we started with the first step of the recipe Sam gave me.

15:15

Bring some water to the boil as

15:17

they say in the cookbook trade. As

15:50

quickly as possible and

15:52

then You can put them aside. Lacking

16:00

in a rice cooker, we've got water

16:02

boiling so he can throw in some

16:04

green beans for three minutes. It turns

16:06

out the Johnny does in fact own

16:08

a colander, which is great, and that

16:10

means it is time to start in

16:12

on the chicken. The first thing

16:14

you do season with the the chicken which

16:16

you want to do. Like.

16:19

Really aggressively of her time.

16:21

Meaning. Meaning like more that it feels like I

16:24

should be I you should be like wow that's a

16:26

lot. More going to do like

16:28

to kind of up on like I'd like

16:30

us sake call see roka which is up

16:32

or french process of cooking in it's own

16:34

sat okay when i cooking chicken fat will

16:36

be cooking and in olive oil and and

16:38

not a ton but a lot so what

16:40

what what you want to do is get

16:42

some salt and pepper on their quite a

16:45

lot of saw quite a lot of pepper

16:47

really massage it in there and then i

16:49

think. Hey.

16:51

It's. Chinese Party. But. I'm offering

16:54

the instruction Yes sir, we're going to

16:56

go some rosemary as well. Crazy right?

16:58

Super fragrant, piny, funky, really young little

17:00

off the hook boyfriend this is gonna

17:02

we got returning to crazy and maybe

17:04

some red pepper flakes of you have

17:06

some left over from the pizzeria when

17:08

you bought those slices right after the

17:10

latter that he one of our I

17:13

will. I get a little spicy to

17:15

have to take your cell, take your

17:17

favour and like you just want to

17:19

go to town like like Just as

17:21

it. yes you're doing great. That's exactly.

17:24

Major Kill assist us. Given.

17:29

Gone Now are going to get

17:31

a big high sided pan. Okay.

17:34

On an army pants Johnny has

17:36

only guess three. any fancy house

17:39

I have to. Sorry

17:41

so what's the biggest fan that

17:43

you own? This. Guy that that's

17:45

the biggest fan, I'm going to take the biggest

17:47

one and we're going to put a lot olive

17:49

oil on their okay like that when see a

17:52

lot how much she means like glug glug glug

17:54

glug. Glug. Glug glug glug

17:56

glug glug glug I because

17:58

like for tingler. There's a lot

18:00

of gloves. So is it when I put the

18:02

chicken in is it gonna be submerged? No, it's

18:05

not But we're also not skimming the pan with

18:07

just a little oil So

18:14

we have a lot of olive oil in there If

18:16

you have a bay leaf, that would be cool to go in

18:18

that olive oil, but I'm guessing Johnny

18:20

doesn't have a payless That's okay. That's okay medium

18:23

heat medium heat meaning In

18:26

the oven so on

18:28

the stovetop Charles okay, there's

18:30

a dial under

18:33

each one of The

18:36

burners and usually they're labeled

18:38

low medium and high We

18:41

want to go in the middle and this is

18:43

a moment for reflection Watching

18:45

that oil what do you reflect about?

18:47

Well, I'm actually just spacing out and

18:49

watching the oil because it changes a

18:52

little bit It begins to move a

18:54

little bit and eventually it's gonna take

18:56

on this thing It's like

18:58

a mirage a little bit of a shimmer

19:00

and then we know it's pretty hot and

19:02

then it's a kind of an opportunity To

19:04

contemplate our lives and you know change is

19:06

inevitable. Just the right girl to be making

19:08

this chicken for Labor

19:14

strikes climate change your crappy office printer.

19:16

What do they all have in common?

19:19

Come on It's all about the money

19:21

Economics is everywhere and everything fueling our

19:24

lives even where we least expected If

19:26

you're a fan of how to and are curious

19:28

to learn something new and exciting about economics every

19:30

week Then you should check out

19:32

planet money podcast from NPR Planet

19:35

money is a different kind of

19:37

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19:39

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expensive the planet money team lives not

26:00

like in the army, like you don't have

26:02

to make it look like an architect was

26:04

involved, but let's keep the border the border

26:06

and the food within it. And

26:09

maybe you've got a chicken

26:12

thigh or two chicken thighs, a little

26:14

drift of the rice and

26:17

then a stack of the green beans

26:19

in which you have, Johnny, please try

26:22

to make them all go in the same direction so

26:24

that they're parallel. So our final

26:26

rule, presentation matters.

26:30

Clean up the place, make all the beans point in

26:32

the same direction. You know,

26:34

classy, right? Sam also

26:36

says, you know, light a few candles, grab

26:38

a bottle of red wine and you don't

26:40

even have to overthink it. Just

26:43

go to the wine store, ask the guy what

26:45

you should serve and then take his advice. Show

26:48

me your napkins. What kind of napkins do you have?

26:50

The kind of napkins we have are paper towels, not

26:53

clasps, but I can improvise and use

26:55

a dish towel as a napkin. Yeah,

26:57

I'm not feeling that better. I

27:01

would say before date, maybe

27:03

we go buy two nice plates.

27:05

Dinner plates we need to buy. So

27:14

is there anything else we need before the

27:16

doorbell rings? No, no, we still haven't talked

27:18

about dessert. Yeah, dessert. Dessert's going to be

27:21

a win. Okay. So

27:23

take the plates when it's all done,

27:26

take them into the kitchen, don't deal with them now. Come

27:29

back with the cheese and two

27:31

little plates. The bread is right there.

27:33

Oh man, the cheese is looking great.

27:35

It is oozing. It is like, it

27:37

is super oozing. Get through all of

27:39

that. Oh my gosh, that was so

27:41

good. It was so great. Everybody's super.

27:44

She's stoked. He's stoked. I was

27:46

right to be confident. Everything is great. What

27:48

possibly could come next. And

27:50

now's when you go to the hoop with store bought

27:53

all the way. Some, the

27:55

semi-confident people will have some ice cream.

27:58

Yeah. Not us, man. Malamar

28:00

and a glass, a tiny glass,

28:02

just a couple of ounces of

28:04

cold organic milk and a Malamar.

28:07

Wow. Boom. Boom. And

28:12

that's how you close. Did we just blow her

28:15

mind? That's how you close, Johnny. Malamar

28:18

organic milk. You know Malamar. Yeah.

28:21

Chocolate covered marshmallow with a little...

28:23

Amazing. ...gram on the bottom. There's

28:26

this thing that happens I found

28:30

that you have not had milk

28:32

and perhaps neither has she or

28:34

he in many, many years. Now

28:37

you're coming back and it's like

28:39

a Madeline. This taste because organic

28:41

milk now, grass-fed, organic milk is

28:44

so delicious. It is amazing.

28:46

And that pure kind

28:49

of barnyard

28:51

awesomeness with that

28:54

one single chocolate cookie after the

28:56

cheese. So you started out really

28:58

basic, just like mom would make.

29:01

And then you got a little more sophisticated with

29:03

the cheese and then you're like a little

29:06

kid again. And I don't

29:09

know, you want to go listen to records? Who

29:14

knows what's going to happen next? Yeah. But

29:16

you're also a good guy, right? A

29:19

creepy guy would not serve a Malamar

29:21

in organic milk. Right. A

29:23

creepy guy might tie up a

29:25

trout with chives. That's

29:28

the guy who's putting a roofie in your drink.

29:30

Yeah, yeah. Watch it. Watch it. No,

29:35

seriously. It's a third date with some dude

29:38

and he's not a professional chef, but he

29:41

did this crazy bondage thing with a

29:43

trout and then there's all kinds of

29:45

different butters. And he told you too

29:47

much about the wine. Don't be a

29:49

jerk, man. I love this.

29:52

I would eat this meal. Just try to

29:54

bring pleasure to the other person. That's it.

29:57

Oh, I like that. It's not about you. It's

29:59

about... serving someone. It's

30:03

to deliver joy

30:06

to other people. So we started by

30:08

talking about confidence because I think confidence

30:10

allows you to do a lot of

30:12

this stuff, but there's a related word

30:16

that also applies

30:18

and that's competence. And

30:20

I think that probably there

30:22

is very little that is

30:24

more attractive than competent. The

30:27

ability to do something

30:30

in the service of others is

30:33

kind of cool and

30:36

brings confidence to the person who can do

30:38

it and delivers

30:41

kind of relief to the

30:43

person who receives it. I

30:46

can make this dinner for you and you will

30:49

find it delicious. I can also change the wheel

30:51

in your car and

30:53

fix that leaky toilet and

30:55

I'm pretty good at making a living. I'm going to

30:57

take care of you in the kitchen. I'm going to

31:00

take care of you emotionally. It's okay. So we talked

31:02

all about what Johnny should do. What's

31:04

the one thing Johnny should not do?

31:06

Well, don't

31:09

apologize. Interesting. Do

31:12

not apologize. You will be so

31:14

sorely tempted to do so, but

31:17

don't apologize because it looks like you're kind

31:19

of begging for a compliment, which is

31:22

just an awkward, weird, it's a bad

31:24

look. By the same token, don't

31:27

try and explain how much you know

31:29

about how, like you listen to a

31:31

podcast at Slate. You're

31:34

not like a CIA trained chef. You just

31:36

barely got that chicken on the table. There's

31:38

still a price tag on the rice cooker.

31:41

Just here's a delicious thing to eat and

31:43

I hope you really enjoy it. Be true

31:45

to thine's own. Yeah. And then she'll say,

31:47

it's actually pretty dry. And if it is,

31:49

you got to be like, yep, I

31:51

did that on purpose. Would you like a Malamar?

32:00

So me and Johnny went through all of

32:02

Sam's rules and for two hours we cooked.

32:05

And then we sat down to eat the

32:07

meal. Chicken

32:10

is really good! It's really really

32:12

good! And

32:14

I'll be totally honest with you, the

32:16

meal was amazing. It was it was

32:18

perfect. I'm not just saying that just

32:20

because it's the name of this episode.

32:22

It was it was like tasted kind

32:24

of gourmet but also simple. We really

32:27

we impressed ourselves. And then

32:29

after the main course we ate some of the

32:31

runny cheese with a baguette. And

32:33

then it was time for dessert. And

32:35

I had actually gone to the grocery store to

32:37

find the melomars but I couldn't find them. And

32:40

so we finished with what I had managed

32:42

to find which was chocolate covered nutter

32:44

butters which honestly

32:46

not as classy as a melomar

32:48

but still actually pretty good. So

32:52

okay so so we did the meal. Yeah.

32:55

We ate the chocolate covered nutter butter. What's

32:59

your reaction? It was delicious. Do

33:01

you feel like you'll be more confident in the

33:03

kitchen now? I think so having this experience under

33:05

my belt. I think

33:08

it can be repeated. So do you

33:10

think you're going to invite your ex-girlfriend

33:12

over and make her dinner? Absolutely. Yeah.

33:14

I mean this is this is

33:16

definitely a game changer. I

33:19

think it's one of those things that's like she's talking

33:21

to her friends the next day and she's

33:23

like he made the most amazing meal. And

33:25

it's the thing where they're and

33:28

he can cook. Like I

33:30

think that if that's the last line

33:32

in my obituary, I'd be pretty satisfied

33:34

with that. But

33:37

maybe on my next date you'll come over as well. The

33:40

training wheel still needs to be on for a little bit. Yes

33:45

exactly. Just give me a thumbs up. Do

33:57

you want to do one? I'd

36:00

like to personally invite you to listen

36:02

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