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Usa Salt Lake City branch member

1:01

Ft I see. Term. Supply.

1:06

Speaking of saving, travel is one of the

1:08

things definitely worth saving for, but that's kind

1:10

of a hard question right? headway? Save money

1:12

for something that so far off in the

1:14

future. Will. One of the

1:16

things that we know is that if you

1:18

build saving into your normal daily habits then

1:20

suddenly you and of having this pot

1:22

of money that can get pretty big. For.

1:25

His is one thing that I do is

1:27

I always try and each week automatically deducted

1:29

from one of my bank accounts a certain

1:31

amount of money that goes into a travel

1:33

account. something I hardly ever pay attention to

1:35

hardly ever notice until it's time to take

1:38

a trip. and then when I look at

1:40

it, I'm like oh my gosh, I can't

1:42

afford that upgrade. Here's all the money that

1:44

I need in order to make it happen.

1:46

It doesn't feel like an expense because that

1:48

money's been sitting there waiting for me to

1:50

use it and I didn't really miss it

1:52

when I was saving it because it happened

1:54

automatically. one of the things that

1:56

we know is really powerful is setting

1:58

up automatic deductions so But before we

2:00

have to choose whether to save money, it

2:03

just happens automatically. And it

2:05

ends up an account that we can use to travel

2:07

around the world. Welcome

2:15

to How To. I'm Courtney Martin. And

2:17

I'm Carvel Wallace. Carvel, you

2:19

know, it's February, peak season

2:22

of the romantic industrial complex.

2:25

I love love. I do. But

2:27

you know what I don't love? What's that? I'm

2:29

going to be outside and focus on romantic

2:32

love in particular. Yeah, there's

2:34

like a lot of different kinds of love. And

2:36

it's weird that we are so obsessed with romantic love because

2:38

there's like, parental love, there's

2:41

brotherly love, there's neighborly love. And

2:44

maybe even the best of them all is

2:46

love between friends. I mean, what is

2:48

more central to joy and resilience and

2:50

fun and like all the good things

2:52

in life than a motley crew of

2:54

friends? Which is why even

2:56

though it's kind of cheesy, I sort of

2:58

love this like more modern concept of Palentine's

3:01

Day. Yes, I'm 100% about

3:03

Palentine's Day for sure. You know, the Surgeon

3:05

General of the United States is saying that

3:07

there's actually a loneliness epidemic. So

3:10

some people are declaring this a friendship

3:12

recession. So like friendships are really no

3:14

joke. Speaking of which, I

3:16

mean, how is your friend life these days, Carvel?

3:19

I'm pretty serious about my friend life.

3:21

I actually prioritize it over my romantic

3:23

life. I am reaping

3:25

the reward to that. I feel good about my

3:27

friend life. That's awesome. My

3:29

friend life is also solid. I got art

3:31

friends, I got activist friends, I got new

3:34

friends, I got old friends. Do you

3:36

mean old friends like friends who've been your

3:38

friends for a long time or friends who

3:40

are themselves old? My longest friend

3:42

is my friend since third grade. Shout out, Megan.

3:45

But I also have a lot

3:47

of elder friends. Like I love

3:49

nothing more than like an old

3:51

slightly curmudgeon-y woman with like a

3:53

deep well of wisdom who

3:55

just makes me not take myself so seriously.

3:58

I love that. You know, we've covered friends

4:00

a lot of times on this show but I

4:02

don't think we've ever talked about intergenerational friendships. Yeah,

4:05

this is the first topic in our

4:07

special series on friendship that starts today.

4:10

It's a really interesting way to rethink

4:12

who could be a friend and

4:15

we're not stopping there. That's right. In the

4:17

next few episodes, we're also going to help

4:19

people evolve their friendships as life changes and

4:22

we're also going to help people deal with

4:24

friendships ending. Makes

4:27

my heart hurt but yes, a fact of life. Yeah.

4:29

Okay, should we jump in? Let's do it. Carvel,

4:32

listeners, I want you to meet

4:34

Emily. I am a

4:36

young 20-something and I

4:38

currently live in Phoenix, Arizona. I

4:41

work with an organization called Bridge

4:43

USA and what we're trying

4:45

to do is we're trying to create spaces

4:47

for young people in high school and college

4:50

to be able to have conversations across the

4:52

political spectrum in a healthy, empathetic way. I

4:55

work in a predominantly virtual

4:57

space. All of my co-workers are

5:00

25 or younger. Really, the only interaction that

5:02

I have with

5:05

intergenerational spaces is in

5:08

my church and then also within my own

5:10

family. I'm really trying to find some older

5:13

friendships and really learn from people who have

5:15

been on this planet for way longer than

5:17

I have. Here's

5:21

something you may not know. We're

5:23

living in the most age-diverse society

5:25

in human history. Isn't that wild?

5:27

There are almost equal numbers of

5:30

people alive today at every age,

5:32

from one-year-olds to 70-year-olds and beyond.

5:34

People are living longer to the point

5:37

where we even have five generation workplaces

5:40

and multi-generational households

5:42

once kind of going out of style are

5:44

now exploding in number in the U.S. Now

5:47

that's all true and then on the

5:49

other hand, we've got this loneliness epidemic.

5:51

A lot of younger people feel understandably

5:53

hopeless as they look towards the future

5:56

and a lot of older people are

5:58

feeling kind of isolated and worried. about

6:00

the legacy they're leaving. But

6:02

there is an antidote, intergenerational

6:05

friendship, which is why

6:08

I wanted to bring in a dear friend of

6:10

mine who's an expert on this topic. Emily,

6:13

I think you should understand that when I

6:15

met Courtney, I felt like Courtney was the

6:17

new kid on the block, and

6:19

now your generation is kind of the

6:21

coming up block. It's so interesting to

6:23

me. Yeah, Emily, how old are you?

6:25

I am 23. I

6:28

wonder, we probably met when I was 25 or 20. You

6:31

were definitely in your 20s, and I was in my

6:33

40s. Yeah. Must have been a pretty long

6:35

time. And I'm now 44, so anyway, just puts it all in

6:37

perspective. We were 10, yeah. Oh, wow, that

6:40

feels kind of like a full circle moment. Completely.

6:47

That's Marcy Alberher. She's a vice

6:49

president of Co-Generate, an organization whose

6:51

mission is to normalize cross-generational relationships.

6:53

How cool is that? And she's

6:55

also an author and former columnist

6:57

for the New York Times. But

7:00

most importantly of all, she is

7:03

a genius at finding friends in

7:05

unexpected places. She's going to

7:07

share her wisdom right after the working group.

7:21

This podcast is brought to you by Slate

7:23

Studios and SAP. AI

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Card subject to credit approval. Savings available

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to Apple Card owners subject to eligibility.

9:15

Apple Card and savings by Goldman Sachs

9:18

Bank USA Salt Lake City branch. Member

9:20

FDIC terms apply. Before

9:25

cross-generational friendships became a centerpiece

9:27

of Marcy's career, her interest

9:29

wasn't purely professional. When

9:32

I was in my 20s and 30s, I

9:34

thought a lot of relationships with older people.

9:36

Like I had all these mentors at work

9:38

that were like women a generation or two

9:40

ahead of me who seem to have things

9:42

all figured out. But I think what

9:44

happened is once I hit my late 30s and I

9:46

realized I wouldn't be having kids of my own, I

9:49

realized that if I wanted to have younger people

9:51

in my life specifically that I was going to

9:54

have to be super intentional about making that happen.

9:57

Emily, growing up outside

10:00

side of your family, did you feel like you

10:02

had intergenerational relationships? Like in high school, did you

10:04

ever have friends of different ages

10:06

or does this feel sort of like

10:08

your whole life you've been craving this intergenerational

10:10

aspect that you haven't been getting? So

10:13

I really was drawn to hanging out with

10:15

people who were older than me. I

10:17

was the little annoying sister that was like

10:20

tagging along with my brother's friend and

10:22

actually wanted to like be their friend. I

10:24

didn't just want to be known as the

10:27

annoying young sister. So I

10:29

would say in that way, I was

10:31

able to make some intergenerational friendships. Ironically,

10:33

though, my senior year, I started making

10:35

friendships with my teachers. But

10:37

after I graduated, I actually just started approaching them

10:39

and I was like, hey, I just like you

10:41

as a person, would you want to just get

10:43

coffee sometime? So there

10:45

are a couple of teachers I still stay

10:47

in contact with. And I would say, you

10:49

know, they're friends of mine.

10:52

Like we go get coffee, we go get dinner

10:54

and it feels very casual in

10:56

a very appropriate setting, too. In

10:59

my 30s, I met this teacher who had

11:01

a huge influence on me by

11:03

this like rich intergenerational life, who

11:07

had a lot of purpose and

11:09

community and really strong relationships because

11:11

she formed exactly the kind of

11:13

friendships you're talking about that you

11:15

sought out with those teachers. And

11:18

I can tell you there are just

11:20

like scores of people younger than her,

11:22

generations of them really, who thought of

11:24

Audrey as this mentor and

11:26

friend. And I was like, I want to be

11:29

an Audrey in my life. And

11:31

Emily, it's interesting. I'm now at the

11:33

age where I'm getting approached the way

11:35

you approached your teacher. So a few

11:37

of the younger friends I've had have

11:40

been just that. We meet because of

11:42

a shared purpose. Like we're doing a

11:45

volunteer project together or we're working together.

11:47

But I have met younger friends like

11:50

through my neighborhood, like one of my

11:52

dearest younger friends was the barista at

11:54

my local coffee shop. And we started

11:56

talking. One day we had a

11:59

very significant moment. because later that

12:01

afternoon, my mother and I used

12:04

to host an annual clothing swap. And

12:07

I was getting my morning coffee and I saw Madge

12:09

and I was like, Madge, what are you doing later

12:11

today? We're hosting this clothing swap.

12:13

Why don't you come? And she came

12:15

at the end of her shift. And

12:18

she like fit right in with this

12:20

intergenerational group of women. But she basically

12:23

left with like an entire new wardrobe.

12:25

And it was this thing we then

12:27

shared that broke the ice. That's awesome.

12:30

Oh my goodness. I'm sure the vintage pieces

12:32

there were just gorgeous. Yeah,

12:34

exactly. That's what I was thinking. Because everything comes

12:36

back. Right? Exactly. So

12:44

I'm hearing and Emily, I'm sure you're hearing this

12:46

too. Shared passion, shared project,

12:48

something that kind of brings generations

12:50

together, which can be work or

12:53

can be more volunteer oriented or,

12:55

you know, sport or something like

12:57

that. And I'm also hearing physical

12:59

proximity, right? The neighborhood aspect you

13:01

mentioned. One

13:04

word we've brought up that I think

13:06

is really interesting to unpack is mentor.

13:08

I think we've, we've probably all used

13:10

it at some point sort of in

13:12

a passing way. And I wanted to

13:14

get your feeling, Emily, do you think of

13:16

yourself as looking for a quote unquote mentor?

13:18

Does it feel lighter than that? Like, what's

13:20

your relationship to that word? I've

13:23

been really contemplating that because I think

13:25

in a work sense, I would love

13:27

to have a mentor because I'm getting

13:29

more responsibility in my job. I'm struggling

13:32

to kind of balance my work in my

13:34

life. And I'm like, wow, I think I

13:36

really need to speak to, you know,

13:39

a woman who's walked through these

13:41

weird stages of being in early

13:44

20s and having a job and having a

13:46

lot of responsibility. And then I think in

13:48

the other sense, I'm like just genuinely curious

13:50

about what it means to have an older friend.

13:52

I really thought about

13:54

the mentor thing a lot. I think about that

13:56

all the time too. And I've almost like erased

13:59

the idea. of one person

14:01

being a mentor from my vocabulary. So

14:03

first of all, we need many, many

14:05

mentors, all of us at all life

14:07

stages and in all contexts, we need

14:09

to collect a lot of mentors and

14:12

all mentorships if they're effective are two-way

14:14

mentorships. So I find that

14:16

when a mentorship is always one way and

14:18

it's always one teacher and one learner, I

14:21

don't think you ever get to the friendship

14:23

because it's not balanced. And the best of

14:26

the intergenerational relationships I find are

14:28

when both people are learning and

14:31

sharing and it never just

14:33

feels one way. It can start one

14:35

way sometimes on the mentor thing, but

14:37

the mentor thing is only one kind

14:39

of intergenerational friendship. Like in the Madge

14:41

story, neither of us were approaching that

14:43

as mentorship. That was pure friendship. Like

14:46

we clicked. One of my

14:48

coworkers, she lives in Arizona. We signed up

14:50

to do ice skating lessons because

14:52

we're like, we need a hobby.

14:54

We need to get out of

14:56

our house because we work virtual.

14:59

We need to just like do something to meet people.

15:02

And the one other person who

15:04

signed up to do ice skating

15:06

lessons was this woman named Marta.

15:09

I think she was maybe in her late 60s, early

15:11

70s. And

15:15

we signed up for these ice skating lessons. I think they were for

15:17

about 10 weeks. So the first couple

15:19

of weeks, you know, mainly just my

15:21

coworker and I, we were like chit chatting.

15:23

And then like the third or fourth week,

15:25

we finally like broke the ice with Marta.

15:27

And it just turned into this like really

15:29

fun friendship where she was joking with us

15:31

and she was like, I bet your grandmas

15:33

are not doing ice skating lessons. And

15:36

I was like, actually, no, they're not. It

15:40

was really fun to just like get to know her

15:42

for a little bit. Unfortunately, I

15:44

think we made those connections a little bit

15:46

like too late in the lessons. And then

15:48

the lesson was over and I don't

15:51

know what Marta's doing. So Marta, if you want

15:53

to reach out to me, if you're listening to

15:55

this, please feel free to. But

15:58

that's kind of when I started to realize I was like. wait,

16:01

I don't have to just find a mentor.

16:03

Like having a mentor is really great and

16:05

awesome. But also like, I can

16:07

just find an older person and be friends with

16:09

them. I didn't realize that that

16:11

was like a friendship level that you could unlock.

16:14

And I was like, oh, I feel like

16:16

I'm really missing that. Well, and I'm hearing

16:18

in your story, that pivotal moment that we

16:20

heard in yours, Marcy, of when you asked

16:23

your brief if she would come to your house. Like

16:26

we get sometimes to bump up against people of different

16:28

generations. But if we don't take that extra step, like

16:30

if you could have said to Martha at the last

16:32

lesson, hey, it's been so amazing getting to know

16:34

you. Like, would you mind if I got your number? We could

16:36

go for a walk sometime. It's like these

16:38

things probably sort of fall through our fingers

16:41

at different moments. So it's good

16:43

to like keep an eye on the opportunity while we have

16:45

it. Marcy, what did you hear in that story? My

16:48

whole work life has me thinking about this. And

16:50

one of the things we talk about is like

16:52

a recipe for intergenerational

16:54

relationships is proximity, shared

16:57

purpose, and practice. So

16:59

proximity, I think we saw it in these

17:01

stories, the ice skating, the coffee shop, the

17:04

shared purpose is like that you're together

17:06

on something that is a shared activity

17:09

or mission. And the

17:11

practice is really the, it takes a little

17:14

work sometimes to feel like, I think doing

17:16

a little work to say, wow, in this

17:18

friendship, I may behave a little differently or

17:21

communicate a little differently or do

17:23

something different than I do with

17:25

my age peers. And that takes

17:27

practice. So if you have

17:30

anybody younger or older in your life,

17:32

you realize like some people came of

17:34

age where it's really common to leave

17:36

voicemails. Some people never listen

17:38

to their voicemails based on age groups.

17:41

That's a common generational effect. Emily, do

17:43

you listen to voicemails? I try to

17:45

avoid them if I can. Right,

17:48

but might you listen to

17:50

a voicemail? Like if I left you

17:52

the voicemail. I love voicememos. I'm like, please. Right,

17:55

I know that. I had my best friend voice memos

17:57

and we joke. We're like, we run our own podcast.

18:00

Like, we're just saying to their voice

18:02

memos throughout the day. Right,

18:04

and I see that with my nephew. He

18:06

would never, he's 17, 18 now, he would

18:08

never listen to a voicemail, but he loves

18:11

the voice memos he lists them for me all

18:13

the time. But yet, if I'm communicating

18:15

with another 50 or 60 something or

18:17

with my mother, I know

18:19

a long voicemail will get listened to.

18:21

So, just those kind of cues, Courtney,

18:23

just trying to observe. We

18:25

shouldn't assume that because someone is of

18:28

a certain age or generation, they communicate

18:30

in certain ways, but some

18:32

of them do surprisingly map to

18:34

our generational cohort. Yes. Marcy,

18:39

you're reminding me so much. One of my

18:41

most treasured intergenerational friendships right now is my

18:44

neighbor, Louise, who's 85 or

18:46

maybe 86, I can't remember. She actually

18:48

does text an email,

18:50

and so we have pretty similar

18:52

communication styles in that regard, but

18:55

actually I've noticed physically when I'm

18:58

with her, I feel like I have

19:00

to slow my entire nervous system down. I don't

19:02

know if you've experienced this, Emily, but especially with

19:04

an elder, like someone who is a lot older.

19:07

And it's not that she's slow

19:09

in any way related to

19:11

her age. She's also Buddhist and a very

19:14

practiced meditator, so part of me wonders, is

19:16

this age or is this just Louise? But

19:19

I literally have to be like,

19:21

oh, talk slow or Courtney,

19:23

be more calm, don't

19:26

rush through things. Like it's almost a

19:28

cultural difference than like a

19:31

tool difference, if that makes sense. Emily,

19:33

do you ever have that experience with an older

19:35

person? 100%

19:38

I find that when I'm with my

19:40

peers, it's like I'm talking at

19:42

100 million miles per hour and it's almost

19:44

like you need to talk faster. I

19:47

realized I'll start doing that when I'm

19:49

talking to like my grandma, for instance,

19:51

she's like, whoa, wait a minute. You

19:54

were there. Now you're here. How did you

19:57

just slow down for a little bit? And

19:59

I'm like, oh, Okay, yeah, there is,

20:01

you know, a different I think the

20:04

word culture, Courtney, I think that's a

20:06

really like, great word

20:08

to use about those differences. I

20:11

feel like age is never the only thing in the mix.

20:13

It's never I like to say it's never the only thing

20:15

in the room. It reminds me

20:17

of the intersectional language like with everybody

20:19

you're dealing with, they are their age,

20:21

but there are other things too, right?

20:23

So you can always tease it out.

20:26

But you know that age is part of it,

20:28

what's going on age and generation. And

20:31

then the other thing is when

20:33

you just said like, Oh, I need to develop

20:35

a hobby. I got into this ice skating with

20:37

my friend. Like, it just brought me back to

20:40

like, I now know what my hobbies are.

20:42

And I find that when I'm with younger

20:44

people, they're still figuring that out. They're still

20:46

trying out so many things to

20:48

know that about themselves. And

20:50

when you get older, you have to remind yourself

20:53

that you can surprise yourself and that you can

20:55

continue to gain knowledge

20:58

about yourself. But you do have a

21:00

good sense. And

21:02

often when you get older, what you want to

21:04

do is dig in more and make more space

21:06

for the stuff you know, you really love. So

21:10

that's very intriguing to me. How do I

21:12

create those connections with them when I might

21:14

be in and out of some hobbies, and

21:17

I don't want to appear like I'm just kind of like,

21:20

flippantly, you know, creating connections with

21:22

people. I'll tell you

21:24

the number one way that I've seen people

21:27

do it is to follow an interest

21:30

you have. Often it's through

21:32

volunteering in an animal shelter in

21:34

a soup kitchen or their weekend hiking

21:38

group, biking group, walking group.

21:41

So I would really try to solve

21:43

those two things at once. You're craving

21:45

for what you want to do with

21:47

your time and let the relationships come

21:49

out of that. I

21:54

think that is so wise. If you find

21:56

your purpose, you'll find your people because that

21:58

base level connective tissue. will be built in. Also,

22:01

there's something to be said about sticking with

22:04

something, like committing for a whole year and

22:06

continuing to show up. To

22:09

be honest, that's my deepest lesson of

22:11

community. It's about showing up over and

22:13

over and over again. You

22:15

may meet someone on the first day, sure, and

22:17

sparks could fly, but it also may

22:19

take some time. Okay,

22:21

we're gonna take a quick break, but when

22:23

we come back, we're gonna have some real

22:26

talk on how to navigate generational clashes. This

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to. We're

25:03

back with our listener Emily, an

25:05

expert, Marcy Albuhar. I'm

25:07

thinking that three of us are talking a

25:10

bit as if intergenerational

25:12

relationships, not that they're

25:14

easy, but that's you know Marcy and I do a lot

25:16

of it. You're straining to do it,

25:18

Emily, but it sounds like you really have

25:20

had your own practice of doing

25:22

it in the stories you've told that this is kind

25:24

of a natural way that you move

25:27

in the world, but the truth

25:29

is this is very atypical. We

25:31

are deeply edge-segregated despite everything we know

25:34

about how beneficial intergenerational relationships are. So

25:36

Marcy, will you just help us understand

25:38

that a little bit because it's one

25:40

of those things where you're like why

25:42

are we living like this when we

25:44

know how much benefit there

25:46

would be from having more of these kind of

25:48

relationships? You know we started like

25:51

hundred years ago as this very age

25:54

integrated society and this was

25:56

before we had the

25:58

kind of separations in even in

26:00

school that we have now where everything is

26:02

kind of broken down into grammar

26:05

schools and middle schools and high

26:07

schools and colleges. And one of

26:10

the things that is a very much a

26:12

hallmark of like American modern

26:14

society is that we

26:16

are born somewhere and like the

26:19

big kind of American success story

26:21

is you kind of go off, get

26:23

educated and you leave where you came

26:25

from. Multi-generational living is having a

26:27

comeback. In the pandemic especially we

26:29

saw the rise in multi-generational living

26:32

that came through necessity and through

26:34

economic challenges. So

26:36

I think we are cutting it back but there is

26:39

this, there always was this like

26:41

American success story was

26:43

like very high tied to like

26:45

the individual journey, not a community

26:48

and collective journey as is so

26:50

common in cultures that are a

26:52

little more communitarian oriented. And

26:55

people are craving it now. People

26:57

are feeling isolated, disconnected. I mean

27:00

it's funny that you mentioned Emily that

27:02

the church is a place that is

27:04

a place of intergenerational connection. We

27:06

have become a less religious society

27:09

overall and a lot of

27:11

faith institutions are finding that

27:13

younger people are not coming

27:16

anymore so they are not as

27:18

age integrated places as they used to be.

27:21

Workplaces which could be the most

27:23

age diverse places for us to mix. Often

27:25

the much older and the much younger

27:28

people are not mixing. We do have

27:30

to do some work if we want

27:32

to re-establish these kinds of connections. Yes.

27:34

Emily have you had experiences at church?

27:36

I'm curious about that. Yes

27:38

and no. I feel like still my

27:41

church experience has still been like

27:43

very like age segregated. I think

27:45

it's also like just doing some

27:47

self-reflection. It's really on me too.

27:49

Like I'm talking about

27:51

how I want these friendships and then like

27:53

I'm really like listening to what you're saying

27:55

Marcy and Courtney and I'm like oh my

27:57

goodness there's been these different touch points. when

28:00

I could have just consistently showed

28:02

up or I could have made

28:05

the first move and been like, hey, I really

28:07

feel like we click, would you

28:09

like to go shopping sometime or do you wanna

28:11

go to the farmer's market? And I think there's

28:13

still this barrier in my

28:15

mind of, oh, this person is older,

28:18

I can't really be friends with them

28:20

in that way. So I

28:22

do think there is a bit of

28:24

like an intimidation factor of, oh, does

28:26

someone older though wanna be friends with

28:29

me? Because, I don't know

28:31

if this gets talked about a lot, but

28:34

now that Gen Z, now that we're coming

28:36

more into the scene, there's been some smack

28:38

talk about us and that can

28:40

make it feel a little bit like, oh, well,

28:42

what if people think I'm sitting

28:45

XYZ stereotype and or

28:47

they look down on me because I'm young, but I

28:50

guess I also have to let people decide

28:52

that too. Oh, Emily,

28:54

two things like older people love it

28:56

when younger people seek them out. So

28:59

just know that, like you are, I'm

29:01

Jewish and we would say like big

29:03

mitzvah if you approach an older person

29:06

with that kind of curiosity and interest,

29:08

I can't imagine anyone would

29:11

rebuff you, especially if you feel like

29:13

you're clicking. And then it just

29:15

struck me that what you were talking about is

29:17

like, we do the easy thing. And the easy

29:19

thing is to find the person our

29:21

age, our race, our gender, and like

29:23

who makes us feel comfortable. And I

29:27

was thinking about the work you do, like you

29:29

do bridging work. And I just

29:31

feel like you understand the power

29:33

of making a connection across difference

29:35

and age is just like another

29:37

difference. And in some

29:39

ways it's an easier difference than the kind

29:42

of political dad side you're working in because

29:45

all of us have experience with age, right? We

29:48

all know what it was like to be

29:50

younger and aspire to be older or know

29:52

someone older in our family. I

29:54

think the work you do around the political

29:57

divide is a harder bridge to cross. That's

30:00

such an interesting point. I was also

30:02

thinking, Emily, I remember when

30:04

I was your age, it was like, or maybe

30:07

a little bit older. It was

30:09

when Obama and Clinton were running against each

30:11

other. And that was a

30:13

real generational risk among women in particular.

30:15

And, you know, I was

30:18

an Obama supporter. And I remember I had older

30:20

friends and mentors who were Clinton supporters and they

30:22

were mad at me and, you know, I was

30:24

wrestling with them. And, and so

30:26

I do think each generation

30:28

feels like the older generation is

30:30

talking smack about them. Like that's

30:33

kind of this, you know,

30:35

cyclical thing that happens. And so I just

30:37

really wanted to mirror for you that I

30:39

remember that feeling and it is intimidating and

30:41

like we have to push through

30:43

it. And I was also thinking on the

30:45

elder side, Marcy, your story about the coffee

30:47

shop. Like one of the things I admire

30:49

about you among so many things is that

30:51

you're non-hierarchical. Like you aren't

30:54

rushing through that coffee experience being

30:56

like this lady gets me my coffee,

30:58

like not contemplating her

31:00

humanity. Like you're slowing down enough to

31:02

have a conversation with her, value

31:05

her at the same level that you

31:07

value yourself, invite her into your home.

31:09

And so I think for older

31:11

people who are listening, the more

31:13

that you can look at someone like Emily, who's 23

31:15

or even me, who's 44 and like not

31:19

discount our humanity just because we're younger or

31:21

just because we're, you know, in Emily's case,

31:23

maybe her organizational title is not fancy or,

31:26

you know, whatever it is that you're sort

31:28

of used to registering as like, Oh, this

31:30

is a person worth my time, worth me

31:32

chatting with. Like if we can shed some

31:34

of those kind of elite

31:36

ideas about who could be our friends

31:39

as older people, I feel like we could meet

31:42

more young people. Isn't that part of this story?

31:45

Completely. But I also just have to say

31:47

all intergenerational friendships seem to have this little

31:50

bit of a cachet around them. I follow

31:52

the media and I've seen a bunch of

31:54

stories about, you know, he's 20,

31:56

they're 70 and they're best pals. That

32:00

is the headline people like to

32:02

read because it's counterintuitive, it's intriguing,

32:04

and we

32:07

all want to be part of something that's

32:09

a little different. I also have a very

32:11

practical piece of advice that maybe is too

32:13

practical. Marcy told me if this is not

32:16

fair, but I have a friend

32:18

who just turned 30. Hi Caroline, and I'm

32:20

44, and I met her after a talk

32:23

I gave. She came and introduced herself, and

32:25

I can't remember. I think maybe we read

32:27

it for coffee, but ultimately our bond has

32:29

been fomented around an

32:33

intergenerational book club that I'm in, which is

32:35

really awesome, but also because

32:37

she's really helpful with my kids. I

32:41

just mentioned that because I would

32:43

be friends with her if she wasn't helpful with my

32:45

kids, but as someone

32:47

who like two working parents, two small

32:49

children, we're always trying to put

32:52

some band-aid over a scheduling error

32:54

that has happened. Caroline is one of the people I

32:57

know I could call in a jam and be like,

32:59

Caroline, can you come by for like one hour?

33:02

John and I screwed this thing up. It's

33:04

small to her, but for me

33:07

it's this profound help and relief

33:09

to have just a couple

33:11

of people I can call that I know their

33:13

lives are such that they actually can

33:15

usually make a little space. Not

33:17

that I expect her to, like she has her own big life. But

33:20

if there are relationships like that with

33:22

someone who's not 40 years older than

33:25

you, but maybe like 15 years

33:27

older or 20 years older where you

33:29

can be that stopgap for them,

33:31

for me that has just been like a

33:33

beautiful way that our friendship has ... I

33:35

try to give her professional

33:37

advice and recommend her

33:39

for jobs. So there's just like a

33:41

lot of abundance in our relationship, if

33:43

that makes sense. That totally

33:46

makes sense. Yeah, I agree with you.

33:48

But I think also on the older end, I

33:51

think your elders in your

33:53

life would welcome like, who's

33:55

going to pick me up at the colonoscopy? There's

33:59

other ways to ... show up in the life

34:01

of your elder friends. And

34:03

I think sometimes you have to volunteer, like not

34:05

wait for the ask. I

34:08

think it's like kind of coming back to

34:11

just like not letting those barriers of like,

34:13

oh, what is this person gonna think to

34:15

me? You know, like the basics of like

34:17

trying to build friendships. And I think what

34:19

I'm hearing is that it's

34:21

almost like these building blocks. Like I

34:23

think it's very easy for my generation.

34:26

And I think they're very valid excuses. Our

34:29

college lives were kind of upended by

34:31

COVID. We didn't get like

34:34

a lot of practice on building those

34:36

foundational relational skills in college that I

34:38

feel like other generations did. And

34:42

what I'm hearing from my friends is even like, we're

34:44

just struggling to make friends, period.

34:46

But now I'm feeling like really empowered of

34:48

like, well, I should find

34:51

out what my hobbies are. And like, maybe

34:53

I should go and just like put myself

34:55

out and like not be afraid of being

34:57

rejected. Because at the end of the

34:59

day, I'm trying to build the life that I want to live.

35:01

And I need to have a little bit of some risk there.

35:04

Yeah. Oh, that

35:06

is so profound. And also if

35:08

you're an organizer, you

35:10

can actually do something like what Courtney

35:13

did. Like Courtney intentionally made an intergenerational

35:15

writing group. Like I co-host a poker

35:17

game and that's really intergenerational. We have

35:19

people from their 20s to their 80s

35:21

in our poker game. I love hosting

35:24

things. So how did you come to

35:26

the idea of a poker night? Actually,

35:29

when I was a journalist, I used to write for

35:31

the New York Times and I had this editor and

35:33

I was having a really hard time making a connection

35:35

with him. And one day he was racing off a

35:37

phone call and he's like, I can't deal with your

35:40

edit. I'll do it tomorrow. I'm gonna be late for

35:42

my poker game. And I'm like, oh, you have a

35:44

poker game? And he's like, why, do

35:46

you play? And I was like, yes. And

35:49

he invited me to the poker game

35:51

the next time. And then I realized

35:53

this group needed a host because

35:56

a bunch of them lived in the suburbs and I

35:58

lived in the city. I offered to

36:00

start hosting the poker game, which was

36:03

probably the best career decision I ever

36:05

made because every single person

36:07

in the poker game, at first it was all

36:09

journalists and these became my mentors. These were the

36:11

people that really helped me in my career and

36:14

taught me so much. It's evolved

36:16

over the years. It's not all

36:18

journalists anymore, but that was the origin

36:20

of that game. That is fascinating. It's

36:22

so fun. I

36:26

want to do one beat on

36:28

some of the challenges of intergenerational

36:30

relationships. I think we've talked about

36:33

potential communication challenges like intimidation, ageism

36:35

is all potentially in the mix.

36:38

Marcy, what are some other things that you hear

36:40

people bringing up that end up creating some

36:43

strain or tension in these friendships? Well,

36:45

first of all, I think when

36:48

you have friends of your age, you

36:50

are moving through the

36:52

life stages together. There's a

36:55

certain lock step thing that happens. I

36:58

think sometimes with older or younger

37:01

friends, you can be

37:03

watching them move into different life stages

37:05

that your relationship will either survive those

37:08

transitions or they won't, but family

37:11

transitions are huge. It will affect

37:13

their availability for you unless, like

37:15

Courtney suggested, you figure out how

37:17

to morph your relationship into their

37:20

family life. I

37:22

think with older friends, I really

37:24

think understanding that people

37:26

are facing health challenges or

37:28

often caregiving situations. I've

37:32

seen that really show up

37:34

in friendships and it's a difference

37:36

that people have to get used

37:38

to. Then I think there are generational

37:41

tensions. I know there are

37:43

generational tensions right now about the

37:46

wars that are happening in our

37:48

world and activism. Those

37:50

things can separate people or it can

37:53

perhaps bring people closer if they go

37:55

with curiosity and trying to understand how

37:57

an older or younger person can be.

38:00

younger generation is experiencing

38:02

something. I think those are also true

38:04

and wise to bring up, Marcy. I

38:06

was also thinking about jealousy. For example,

38:08

young people, one of the sort of

38:11

bad reputations you all have, Emily, is that

38:13

you want to take your vacation time and

38:15

you want to clock off at five o'clock

38:18

on the dot and all these things. And

38:20

when I hear that, and I'm not an

38:22

organizational leader, but when I hear that, I

38:24

hear, oh, my

38:26

generation is jealous that your generation

38:28

right out of the gate is

38:30

like, we are going to have

38:32

work-life boundaries. So sometimes with

38:35

my generation, there were ways in which

38:37

I used to joke that we were

38:39

like feminists, Frankenstein's, because we were like,

38:41

we really took to heart that we

38:43

should be empowered and say what we

38:45

thought and take leadership positions at a

38:47

younger age. And then I felt

38:49

like for some of the older women in my life, it was

38:51

like, wait a minute, this girl's too big for her britches. And

38:53

I was like, you told us to be too big for our

38:55

britches. That's what we're doing is like the thing you work

38:57

so hard for. And that some

38:59

of the resistance is just like jealousy. Why does

39:01

the younger generation get to take vacations when we

39:03

have always like worked ourselves to the bone? So

39:06

I don't know if that resonates at all, Marcy,

39:08

for you, but I feel like that's like a more

39:11

underlying strain or Emily for you. I'm

39:14

hearing younger people say the

39:16

world is different than when you came of age

39:19

and you can't apply the

39:21

rules that worked for you to what we're

39:24

facing right now. The chances of

39:26

me buying a house

39:28

are so different than what it was like

39:30

for your generation or having

39:33

a certain kind of experience at

39:35

work. So I think there are

39:37

the younger people are asking for some

39:40

grace and asking for older people to

39:42

try to understand what it feels like

39:44

to come of age in a world

39:47

where social media is bringing them images from

39:49

the route, the world every minute and where

39:51

they went to school in

39:53

COVID and where like, you know, these

39:55

very, very radically different experiences that

39:58

people of our generation did not. face

40:00

or my generation did not face but Emily

40:02

I don't want to put words in your mouth

40:04

I'm interested in how that feels for you I

40:06

think that's so accurate Marcy I

40:09

see on social media where there's people

40:11

my age who are like oh

40:14

my gosh like how do

40:16

we balance work-life commute I have to commute into

40:18

work like how do I have time to do

40:20

my laundry how do I have time to do

40:22

this or that and they just

40:24

get dogpiled on and these people

40:26

being like well welcome to the real

40:28

world and I get that like my

40:30

problems to someone else might seem really

40:32

small but they're still like my problems

40:35

there's still things that I'm trying to

40:37

figure out and I'm really

40:39

happy and glad that you figured them out but

40:41

I would love some grace along the way when

40:43

I'm trying to figure these things out too oh

40:45

I love that so much and I think we

40:48

got to a paradox that's so important to name

40:50

which is the older person

40:52

in the relationship who can hold you

40:55

in that moment of both this is

40:58

your problem it may seem small to

41:00

me at 44 and

41:02

being able to hold as the older

41:04

person what it felt like when

41:06

you were that age and that the

41:09

things that feel small to you know

41:11

maybe Marcy or Louise some of the

41:13

people older than me in my life

41:15

like that each generation basically has

41:17

to hold both the smallness and the

41:20

bigness of the other generations problems right

41:22

and like I want to be friends

41:24

with older people who can both kind of

41:26

calm my nervous system and be like yes

41:28

it's really hard to have two working parents

41:30

and two small kids and trying to be

41:32

put it all together and you

41:34

know what it's all gonna be

41:37

okay and you're doing a great job and

41:39

the details that feel super important are actually

41:41

not that important like you're loving with your

41:43

kids you're present you're doing good work in

41:45

the world that's kind of all that matters

41:48

court like you're doing great in the same

41:50

way that I would love to be for

41:52

you someone Emily who's saying like I

41:55

know it's so hard to get it all done it's so hard to

41:57

figure out who the hell you want to be in the world and

41:59

you you are doing such a good job and like

42:01

this is not to minimize how hard those things are

42:04

but like the stuff that matters

42:06

you're doing beautifully with. You know, it's

42:08

like we need someone that can hold

42:10

both like the hardness of what we're

42:12

doing and also help

42:15

us right size it in our own minds

42:17

and hearts. Does that make sense? Yeah,

42:20

100%. Yeah.

42:23

Beautiful. Emily,

42:26

has this felt helpful? I

42:29

see and I want to be a service to

42:31

you so we want to know like, are you

42:33

leaving with some maybe practical and also deeper learnings

42:35

from today and do you have any lingering questions?

42:38

I think this thing for me that I'm

42:40

getting out of this is to define

42:43

the activities that make me really

42:46

happy and then like see how

42:48

I can find older people, older

42:50

generations in the mix of those

42:53

and not trying to like major in the minors of,

42:56

oh, should I devise this whole plan to

42:58

like set myself up for these relationships?

43:00

Just kind of like let them naturally flow

43:02

into what I'm doing. And

43:05

I actually am feeling like so inspired because

43:07

one of the hobbies that I'm actually

43:09

now like realizing that I really enjoy is

43:12

cooking. And I was like, Oh, well,

43:14

what if I just did

43:16

a little like dinner party

43:18

wasn't stressed about like who showed up or

43:20

like being afraid to invite someone who's older

43:22

being like, they're probably not going to want

43:24

to come to like a 20 year old

43:26

dinner party, they're probably going to be scared,

43:28

I'm going to give them food poisoning. But

43:31

instead to just like send out

43:33

the invitation and see who

43:36

shows up. And then from there

43:38

kind of figure things out. And also, maybe

43:40

I should go back to ice skating and see

43:43

if Martha is still around because I have a

43:45

feeling she might be. Oh,

43:47

well, when you do that dinner party,

43:50

you can even be a little more intentional. You

43:52

can say bonus points if you could bring someone

43:54

from another generation. So you planting the seed to

43:57

the people that you invite. You

43:59

can even suggest people to. bring a family

44:01

recipe, like something that means

44:03

something intergenerationally. So that's one

44:05

spark. The other thing

44:07

is, I feel like chemistry is really a part

44:09

of it. In all

44:11

friendships, of course, we think about why

44:13

did we befriend somebody in particular. And

44:15

you were drawn to Martha. That is

44:17

chemistry. There is something that makes us

44:19

want to get curious about someone. And

44:22

so I would just have your radar

44:24

up around them. And I

44:26

think the other thing is, and I talk

44:29

about this all the time with Duncan, the

44:31

younger colleague, where we're leading these workshops on

44:33

cross-generational relationships. And I learned this from him,

44:35

is you'd be surprised.

44:37

You're the younger, and then suddenly it

44:39

will hit you that you just flip

44:42

a switch. And you're like, wow. So

44:45

there's the next generation who are coming to

44:47

me. And it often happens

44:49

at work. But we started doing a bunch

44:51

of work with high school students. And Duncan

44:53

is like, that's 30. I'm now the elder.

44:55

And it was so interesting to watch him

44:57

have that transformation, which I've watched with you,

44:59

Courtney, over the years. So

45:03

I'm just going to say, wherever you

45:05

are in this, Emily, I wouldn't be

45:07

surprised if you get to be the

45:09

elder, too. Age is just relative. There's

45:11

always someone older and younger. So

45:13

keep that in mind. Yeah, I love

45:16

that. What's the best? Well,

45:20

our chemistry has been on fire. I would

45:22

love to hang out with the two of

45:24

you any old time. And

45:27

Marcy just can't thank you enough for

45:29

all of your wisdom today. And

45:31

over the years, you're such a gift. What

45:34

a joy this was. Yeah, thank you so much.

45:41

So that was part one of our special

45:43

friendship series. Be sure to join us next

45:45

week when we dive into how friendships grow

45:47

and change over time. And in the meantime,

45:49

check out the show notes, where we have

45:51

links to a bunch of great episodes about

45:53

where to find friends, how to approach a

45:56

friend, crush, and even how to deal

45:58

with gender divides in friendship. And

46:00

of course, we want to know what you think. What

46:02

friendship advice do you have? What conundrums

46:04

can we help solve? Do

46:06

you have a missed connection from ice skating class?

46:09

Send us a note at howtoslate.com or

46:11

leave us a voicemail at 646-495-4001. And

46:18

we might have you on the show. And

46:20

if you like what you heard today, please give

46:22

us a rating and a review and tell a,

46:24

you guessed it, friend. That helps

46:26

us help more people. How

46:29

to's executive producer is Derek John. Joel

46:31

Meyer is our senior editor. The show

46:33

is produced by Rosemary Belson with Kevin

46:35

Bendis. Merit Jacob is senior

46:37

technical director and composed our theme

46:39

music. And Charles Duhigg created the

46:41

whole show. Carbel Wallace is my

46:43

co-host. I'm Courtney Martin. Thanks

46:46

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46:49

this is Mary Harris, host of Slate's

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