0:00

before we jump into our finale episode in

0:02

the this series, a note, our

0:04

conversation contains graphic discussions

0:06

of violence including assault

0:08

discussion of ptsd and

0:10

suicide listener discretion

0:13

is advised

0:18

hi i'm older his on staff writer

0:20

at the atlantic and , rebecca receive

0:23

a producer at the atlantic atlantic

0:25

is how to start over today

0:28

we talk about the origins of regret what

0:30

it means how to get over it and

0:40

we didn't have about how regression actually be

0:42

a catalyst that , ended

0:44

in the whole whole

0:47

wanted to better understand why we can learn

0:49

to live with certain choices and other

0:51

hunters for his

0:54

shoe experts about how to start over

0:56

in life by learning from our past decisions

0:59

and when regrets and sport releases the grip

1:01

how we can forgive ourselves and move on the

1:05

woman i regret is not majoring

1:08

in journalism in college so

1:10

, i was in college i had

1:13

i was actually very interested in journalism

1:15

i was editor of my high school paper

1:17

anyway ah suddenly journalism

1:20

and i graduated and

1:22

i graduated into the recess and i

1:25

really realized i really wanted

1:27

to give journalism assad right as i was graduating

1:29

college so i i did

1:31

i went to journalism gospel and instantly

1:34

two additional years basically learning

1:36

says i could have learned in college in

1:39

grad school at u of at

1:41

no of people who who went to my same college

1:43

and majored in journalism in there now slightly

1:45

further along in their in their careers first

1:48

of others like silver linings to that regret

1:50

so in grad school is where

1:52

is bet my partner same still with

1:54

still summoned feel like i'm attributing too much too this

1:57

to this this isn't that neat

1:59

in college

2:00

for me some of those regrets are more

2:03

i prioritized my career at every

2:05

planes and when i had romantic

2:08

partners or personal

2:10

relationships that could have

2:12

progressed in a certain direction

2:14

i always went in favor of

2:16

a new opportunity or living somewhere else

2:18

and even the person who spontaneously

2:22

kind of takes every opportunity as opportunity comes

2:24

it's interesting how interesting even found

2:26

myself regretting not teaching the more

2:29

mundane part then

2:31

i have no regrets in the sense that any

2:33

time opportunity ten have lost

2:36

it the war i would like leave everything behind

2:39

but also leaving everything behind over

2:41

and over again even as you become

2:45

who you kind of wanted to be is still

2:47

entertain the prospect of

2:49

the life that you could have lived

2:51

and i think that's just such a universal

2:54

the

2:55

i didn't solve the problem of not ever

2:57

having issues between a relationship and career by getting

2:59

dumped by everyone that ever dated

3:02

ah every

3:06

, came up with you know and and

3:08

was like i'm going to go follow my career and they realized

3:11

he uses the

3:13

you need a ride to the airport

3:18

an important thing to remember

3:20

with psychologist think about regrets

3:23

his in a way and emotion

3:26

that is that time machine regret is

3:28

something about the past that we

3:30

feel in the presence

3:32

that is there to guide our future

3:35

that's the function of that emotion that's why it is divorce

3:39

hi daddy day as an assistant professor

3:41

at the columbia business school the

3:44

studies of regret fully understand which regret

3:46

seem to go away quickly vs

3:48

which ones can live

3:49

in our minds for years

3:51

and what you can do you find yourself

3:53

feeling regret over your past choices

3:56

to texas regrets

3:58

sometimes regrets things we have

4:00

done the things we have said

4:03

and , times regret that things we had

4:05

failed to do or have

4:08

failed to have said i'd

4:10

so you can regrets saying

4:12

something of offensive or you may

4:14

regrets not saying something

4:17

positive rights the most enduring

4:19

regrets with people have those

4:22

regrets of inaction two

4:24

types of regrets you need to

4:27

different kinds of emotions

4:29

when people have these regrets of action

4:32

when they regret doing something for

4:34

more likely to steal the hots emotions

4:37

anxiety and guilt and

4:39

those emotions are a call to

4:41

action the lead us to do

4:43

something where's the

4:46

other kind of regrets of inaction

4:48

when we regret not doing

4:50

something while we feel depressed or

4:52

we still sad but that doesn't

4:55

really diverse that's round

4:57

to step up and do and

5:00

change the situation

5:02

ah okay interesting in one ear said

5:04

he he he looked at the difference between

5:05

the ideal self and the ourselves

5:08

can you kind of define what

5:11

those things mean

5:12

think about all of your

5:14

goals all your aspirations

5:17

and that that your ideal self know that

5:20

ideal self contained for time but

5:22

we all have some senses what

5:24

are goals what is the kind of ideal

5:26

person but i but

5:28

we'll have our ourselves it

5:31

does the collection of all

5:33

the things we feel like we should be doing

5:36

the norms we should be following the

5:38

rules we should the abiding by

5:42

so we we have these tensions right

5:44

we have the person that

5:46

i feel that i would like

5:48

to be or of it i could be and

5:50

then we have the person but i feel like they

5:53

ought to be the third my should self discrepancies

5:57

from those to got of so

5:59

it to feelings of regret

6:02

don't let him ideals others that i'm and he every

6:04

night everyone in america knows my name and i'm

6:06

like a household name journalists

6:09

right right and then my aunt

6:11

self is like i said really com my

6:13

mom more like i really don't call

6:15

her very often because they get busy i

6:17

feel a little bit sad that i put

6:20

it on the backburner so much is that is i kind

6:22

of we're talking

6:22

right your ideal

6:24

self the thing v people tend to regrets

6:27

missed educational opportunities it

6:30

could have gone to school and i didn't or i

6:32

could have followed my passion at school

6:34

but i took the safer route by

6:36

it could be missed traveling opportunities

6:39

some people mention this special

6:42

someone that they could have married

6:45

or , to have bonded

6:47

with and they did did then you're

6:49

also point he said it's they tend

6:51

to be sadly related

6:53

so i should call my mom

6:56

more often than it probably both

6:58

of us when we end this conversation we said

7:00

but it's also thing that are that bit

7:03

of a bigger nature so not

7:05

having gone to visit the dying relative

7:08

before they passed away in

7:11

my surveys drug ,

7:14

in the past it could be irresponsible

7:17

financial behavior when

7:19

we think about regrets we have to think

7:21

in the short term in the lungs

7:23

in the short term

7:26

the aren't regrets they

7:28

are the ones with lead to more intense

7:30

regrets bad so

7:33

if i feel

7:35

like i should have stepped up it said

7:37

something and a meeting when someone said

7:39

something offensive and i didn't i

7:41

steal their that's their that's regrets

7:45

what typically happens with the strong

7:47

regrets is because they

7:49

feel so intense we the

7:51

end up doing with them quite

7:54

quickly i'm doing with them what i mean

7:56

is weaver take it as a learning

7:58

opportunity and say well next time when

8:01

i'm in that kind of meeting of stuff up it

8:03

could be minimizing

8:06

i didn't say anything because he wasn't such a big deal

8:08

that's not an optimal way of solving

8:10

this but in our minds sometimes resolve it

8:13

that way it could be so

8:15

difficult when we seek

8:17

help from friends from therapy

8:20

where's our ideal regret cause

8:23

they are not as

8:25

strongly felt the

8:27

beginning we just can't put them on the backburner

8:30

be simmer and they summer and

8:32

a simmer and then after

8:35

twenty years were still there

8:37

wow paper knowing their so

8:40

knowing that you kind of tend to

8:42

deal with these ot regrets more quickly

8:44

when they when they come up for you kind of letters

8:46

ideal regress firmer

8:49

should we just always be doing

8:51

whatever our biggest grandest dream is

8:53

it because heard you can differentiate like where

8:56

you draw the line as far as like i'll

8:58

regret this or if i don't take action

9:00

the first point is that we need to remember this

9:02

is something that almost so

9:05

obvious and yep because it's obvious would

9:07

forget it regret is a natural

9:09

emotion everyone

9:11

experiences just knowing

9:14

that helps me deal with my

9:16

regrets in a way

9:18

that's more health because

9:21

it's not something about me it's

9:23

not something about my

9:25

mentality being wrong it's i'm

9:28

going to experience regrets answer your question

9:30

is like should i just go and follow a

9:32

dreams

9:33

part of me wants to see us

9:36

it never occurred to me wants to say the

9:39

other way to do with your regrets so

9:41

for example a few wake up and you feel

9:44

i just want to be on t v everyday i

9:47

wanna be famous when one way is

9:49

okay i'm going to go and follow that dream

9:51

but another way is asking yours of okay

9:53

so what have i learned from this

9:55

regrets what am i regretting that i

9:57

didn't do in the past what can i meant

10:00

that moving forward so

10:02

whenever the opportunity arises

10:05

a big opportunity or small opportunity i'll

10:07

be there to accept it and embracing

10:12

without you know a thing cyanide a

10:14

becca and like setting

10:17

up the megan running off to go bag a

10:19

h b o max or something instead

10:22

to just try to do something

10:24

all they can help

10:26

the moved is ideal self the

10:28

to reality

10:30

right exactly is it so for example

10:32

my partner says feel like she hasn't

10:35

traveled and us and

10:37

she's planning to travel more in the future

10:39

but right now we have you

10:42

know a six year old and i'm unfold at

10:44

make sampling harder there's a true

10:46

friend vinci could use a good backup

10:48

her bags and co traveling the

10:50

way we both feel with that regret

10:52

is asking of well how can

10:55

we incorporate more adventure

10:57

in our lives that doesn't require

11:00

hiking up and leaving for example

11:02

you regret vets fifteen

11:04

, ago someone said hey let's you know

11:06

that's be spontaneous inside somewhere you're like no

11:08

i don't know don't know that's responsible well

11:11

what if someone now comes up to you and says that

11:13

be spontaneous over the weekend and drive

11:15

somewhere or that's more feasible to

11:18

but if we remember okay that

11:20

is the regret that i had

11:22

they can't change what i

11:24

then they can change

11:26

how i react in the future an

11:28

important thing to remember with psychologist

11:30

think about is that regret

11:33

is in a way an

11:35

emotion vet is a time machine regret

11:37

is something about the past but we

11:39

feel in the present

11:42

that is there to guide our future

11:46

that's the function of that emotion that's why it has

11:48

evolved it's oh i

11:50

don't feel good now about what happened

11:52

how do i make sure it doesn't happen again so

11:55

when we stop thinking about regret

11:58

as regret as this

12:00

functional emotion and

12:02

we start thinking about it as it as

12:06

oh bite uncomfortable

12:08

the very functional emotion

12:10

help

12:12

starting to do something with it so

12:15

if someone that's the way we we

12:17

just can't reach out anymore that

12:21

doesn't mean all is lost for

12:24

the ball we can now during

12:27

that regrets and feeling the intensity

12:29

of it we can now take

12:31

stock of everyone else who we

12:33

cared deeply about that is still

12:35

around and how do we make

12:37

sure of that doesn't happen with them

12:40

okay so that's the key is

12:42

not eliminate regret it crocker

12:45

few regrets a healthy way

12:47

not come off as

12:49

holy and is regret is great

12:51

you know an example the keeps coming

12:53

up his people regretting

12:56

having married and abusive

12:59

partner that and

13:01

and having stayed with him for so long they

13:04

say shouldn't have been

13:06

very big as a big off

13:08

regret but what they also say

13:11

i feel okay about it because because

13:13

of them i have my beautiful children right

13:16

so severe dealing with the

13:18

regrets i've seen the silver

13:20

lining i'm not here to judge

13:22

in say your regrets

13:25

is not real forever the

13:28

content of your regret is different

13:30

but the process of the same and

13:33

we can learn from the process

13:44

what what happens if we just can't get no

13:47

rugrats we , going over

13:49

and over something in our heads that there's no particular

13:51

change we can make maybe it's

13:53

too late the moment is passed and there's nothing

13:56

you can do about

13:56

look at work

14:04

i'm thinking about self forgiveness i was reminded

14:07

of something came across a long time ago

14:09

while researching forgiveness and general it's

14:11

called the reach method

14:13

when i get some emotional

14:15

selfridges this show

14:18

the and i apply this far failed

14:20

to reach a forget to smile

14:22

it's a system that can help you forgive others

14:25

but it could also be applied to yourself to

14:28

here's what the reach acronym

14:29

then for

14:31

our censor recall the events

14:34

the stand for empathize with the other person

14:37

in this case

14:37

if yourself

14:39

a

14:39

aren't you is a gift

14:42

give you have the gift of forgiveness

14:44

even if you don't feel like you necessarily deserve

14:46

it

14:47

he can for commit to forgiveness

14:51

hm for hold on to remind

14:53

yourself that you did in fact forgive yourself

14:56

and that you're capable for getting

14:58

word of wisdom really is

15:00

being able to hold things

15:03

that are intentions at

15:05

the same time and and have

15:07

perspective than us to

15:10

make the decision of which one is most important

15:12

right now so i'm not

15:15

negating that i'm having

15:17

negative feelings but what i'm

15:19

falling to do is to just

15:22

the balance and how much importance

15:25

on going to gills the negative feelings

15:27

versus and more generous

15:30

compassionate approach to myself

15:32

dr everett worthington

15:35

a clinical psychologist and an expert

15:37

on forgiveness i'm

15:39

was a professor at the virginia commonwealth

15:41

university for nearly four that is

15:44

retiring in twenty seventeen avenue

15:47

students actually created the reach forgive this

15:49

method and other resources

15:50

how people forget themselves

15:53

i first interviewed him for a piece and twenty the

15:55

team and though he didn't remember

15:57

me history was one i'll never forget

16:01

you got

16:02

he

16:04

if you had your own experience

16:06

a a very intense

16:08

and and actually tragic experience from your

16:11

from your life where you ended up having to forgive

16:13

yourself for something i i

16:15

was wondering if you would be comfortable talking

16:17

about that story today and about how you actually

16:20

went through the process of forgiving yourself

16:23

what happened was in nineteen ninety

16:25

six my mother was

16:28

murdered that prefer very brutal

16:30

murders a home invasion of

16:32

currently a young man sinking

16:35

no one was home broken their house

16:37

and thinking

16:38

in or she wasn't there when she woke up

16:41

and he had i had a crowbar

16:43

and and ended up bludgeoning her

16:45

to death he , i was

16:47

able to forgive the the young

16:49

man for doing that arm but

16:52

my brother was the one

16:55

who discovered my mother's body

16:57

three was really traumatized

16:59

and i think he

17:02

, kandahar emotional

17:05

suppression response

17:07

to that is he said done you

17:09

know they still

17:12

have the just having a terrible problem with

17:14

this i just have these you

17:17

, intrusive thoughts these

17:20

images that combat have seen

17:22

her body there and you know and i

17:24

get so depressed and anxious

17:27

about this this i even

17:29

i said well my dear know

17:31

this sounds like on a

17:33

post traumatic stress or

17:35

stress as it for

17:37

review i would try to get some

17:39

kind of counseling for this in

17:42

of and i said that might said just and

17:44

financing for our you his he for

17:46

indices i'm not going to any shrink

17:50

i said death well whatever

17:53

and i didn't bring it up again well

17:57

as course within three months

17:59

at turning

17:59

like committed suicide he

18:02

was so upset the

18:04

depression and couldn't pass

18:06

this ptsd

18:09

so i sell really

18:11

a lot of self condemnation because

18:14

i could easily look at myself

18:16

and regrowth that i did not respond

18:18

to waited i knew i could respond

18:21

the book rouge police you

18:23

sound like bloody you know sounds

18:26

that he has left earth the

18:28

suicide note he

18:30

said as he said or

18:33

mobile society gonna be gonna time as

18:35

chaos i'm sure or not

18:37

and i know in a that i

18:39

have left our finances and

18:42

really a state of disarray and

18:45

, your keep your hair them in the midst

18:47

of all this i wonder if you will hit

18:49

fear us our finances

18:51

sustain them out out of a sudden

18:54

and were sites us i have something

18:56

that i can i the

18:59

helped me really move

19:01

on and and on a and

19:03

with the a dinner with a self

19:05

forgiveness wow and so on i

19:08

wow i so

19:11

through that model and that hobo

19:15

more with the responsibility

19:17

interface you know how to make this right

19:20

i can money mike's day as

19:22

far , ancestors to die

19:25

in i feel like as forgive me

19:27

for my inner say years but

19:30

medical have handled this wrong well

19:33

interpersonal like

19:35

what are your work as deal with spirituality

19:37

and you mentioned got a couple times and wondering

19:39

for for people who aren't religious i think it can

19:41

be harder to movie

19:44

somebody subsidy you don't eat on have

19:46

like the interlocutor

19:49

and i'm wondering what advice

19:50

you might have for people who who aren't

19:52

religious for working days and the be same

19:55

steps

19:56

the only one of them fab

19:58

for really that makes

19:59

any difference on is that first

20:02

learned about in , meeting

20:04

things right as much as you're able

20:06

with what you have to the sacred

20:09

sacred we'd all these religious spirituality

20:13

but then there's a kind of kind nature

20:15

spirituality or people feel

20:17

like

20:18

i've gotten out

20:19

sorts with nature or

20:22

, a kind of suman his stick spirituality

20:24

where they feel like i've done a crime

20:26

against humanity i have disappointed

20:29

my view of what's humans

20:31

asked and the the

20:33

answer some people is just us census

20:36

transcendence victims with

20:38

that ceiling of off with

20:41

the like where there's where things

20:43

that are is bigger than i am is yeah

20:45

i've got some perspective on things

20:47

know because i'm not the center of the universe

20:50

so i'm thinking we

20:53

are spiritual people were

20:55

not always religious or whatever

20:58

people sources spirituality

21:00

is i think they can can

21:02

to try to make this right

21:05

as much as as possible

21:07

for those people that that's not a very

21:09

important part of their life

21:11

then that's not really gonna cause many

21:13

problems either yes they

21:15

bypass this they up and look

21:17

at responsibility to

21:20

you know if people and also

21:22

to themselves psychologically

21:24

i'm being the i'm often upset

21:27

with myself that is yelling at my partners

21:30

i , a lot of people maybe they don't yell

21:32

at their partner but they mandela

21:34

their kids are you know they might yell at someone who

21:36

they love and don't think they should have blown

21:38

up add that they did were

21:40

all stressed out in human how would you use the

21:42

read that's actually forgive yourself

21:45

for doing something like that

21:46

or is now than i've yelled at

21:48

my kids that feel really bad about

21:50

sales and and i've gone through

21:53

those steps to take responsible

21:55

action you knives and said well

21:57

god forgive me forgive doing this

21:59

whatever i feel is sacred

22:03

and then i

22:04

make this right with my

22:06

kids in i apologize

22:08

i try to make a good concessions

22:10

are they can and about

22:13

why i did the things

22:15

that things didn't the making excuses but

22:18

in helping now as a kid

22:20

know that com i

22:23

think that i did something that i am

22:25

very sorry that idea and i want to make things

22:27

right and , i had

22:29

a search my own heart and and

22:31

realize i do lose my temper

22:33

way too often but

22:36

now once i've done that by what

22:38

i get some emotional self

22:40

forgiveness so he

22:42

and i apply this sars failed

22:44

to reach for gentle smile

22:47

where are his wrists all the hurt

22:50

the home as soon as i emphasize

22:53

with the percy did the heart will that would be empathizing

22:55

with myself the

22:58

way that i can do that is to say will sort

23:00

of somebody else said done this

23:02

for the always emphasized with the on

23:04

an fyi if i'm willing to free

23:06

things from a different

23:08

perspective for somebody else anti

23:11

also see things from

23:13

my perspective and

23:16

, a is to give an altruistic

23:20

just and forgiveness

23:23

forgiveness on the authors suggest isn't

23:25

on selfish just i

23:27

gifted the person doesn't deserve

23:30

to have i done something done something don't

23:32

deserve to be like off

23:34

the hook for this for tend to forget

23:36

myself but i can give myself

23:38

and

23:40

that how forgiveness and

23:42

, c come

23:44

out to the forgiveness and myself

23:47

and i as experience that

23:49

is to do something maybe write

23:51

it down i forgave myself for this on

23:53

you know june eight or

23:55

two thousand twenty two minutes

23:58

a day was the magic day

23:59

i and then the reason

24:02

that i do that is so that i ten

24:04

h hold on

24:06

to that self forgiveness whenever

24:08

i get down on my cell think it's

24:10

it's it's late at night and i start ruminating

24:13

about this again i guess none on our added

24:16

forgive myself for this as

24:19

, that each is where i really saw

24:22

fall apart

24:25

you know there's like this common

24:27

from in in there the to

24:30

i'm just feel your feelings

24:32

and i wonder

24:32

in kind of whether

24:35

this suggests that forgiveness

24:37

of others or ourselves almost

24:39

the incident always be

24:42

flown air feeling he

24:44

has aired trying to remind yourself

24:46

that you're being forgetting that like you're you're

24:48

actually from you know committed

24:50

to this the forgiveness mindset

24:53

yeah i i would say

24:56

it's more a recognition that

24:58

all of my experiences

25:01

are very complex and

25:03

that that i often have very

25:05

mixed feelings harder

25:09

wisdom really as being able to hold

25:12

her intentions at

25:15

the same time and and have

25:17

perspectives enough to

25:19

make the decision of which one is most important

25:22

right now so i'm not

25:24

negating that i'm having

25:27

negative feelings for what i'm

25:29

trying to do is to just

25:32

the balance and how much importance

25:34

i'm going to gills the negative feelings

25:36

versus a more generous

25:55

what comedy rush hour like

25:57

common among all immigrant

25:59

there my

26:01

her her like learn

26:03

from their own mistakes

26:05

mark for them learn

26:06

from the mistakes of others in

26:08

so basically the in life no

26:11

actually my that you're going to make a lot of mistakes

26:13

and you're gonna learn from them and that of the making stupid

26:15

has been like a big breakthrough for me

26:18

now but according experts

26:21

norman and he shouldn't feel

26:23

bad about having regret and he said

26:26

figure out what you can learn from your address have

26:28

you learned anything from your gut

26:29

i think everything that has happened to me

26:32

until this point was meant to happen and

26:34

i don't think that says

26:35

the other

26:38

there's no other pass i could have taken you

26:40

know place i wanted the things i

26:42

wanted as the times that i wanted them

26:45

and i made decisions accusingly and

26:48

from that point i got to where i am and that's

26:51

where , you know again

26:54

get there for a ,

26:57

time and a lot of struggle to get to that

26:59

point and i think it's to except

27:01

that the terrible things were also quote

27:04

unquote meant to happen to you like

27:07

those terrible things and be the source

27:09

of a lot of regret you

27:11

had a role to play and them like i think

27:13

yes i was gonna say

27:15

i also definitely regret to your first

27:17

question thirst so many things

27:19

i said that i i regret

27:22

and

27:23

things that i said to people when i

27:25

was not in the best state of mind

27:27

i think the whole concept of forgiving

27:30

yourself for suing those things

27:32

can be really hard and process

27:34

because it almost feels like hard

27:36

to reconcile that you

27:38

were in the wrong

27:41

but you deserve i

27:43

feel okay about that

27:45

yeah are just like hey everyone

27:47

says the wrong thing sometimes and

27:49

like everyone lived there

27:51

for i mean i regret yelling and my

27:53

boyfriend about the past as i said

27:56

and suddenly i was

27:58

at that at lot that was like that so

27:59

anna line and just like it eyelids

28:02

the sin of really exhausted like weird

28:05

he upgrade there's something to

28:07

something to like living the guys like that was

28:10

minimum thing i'm sorry

28:11

and he said

28:32

did you or anyone who know

28:34

is experiencing thoughts of suicide please

28:37

call the national suicide helpline

28:39

at hundred to seven dream

28:41

eight to five size

28:48

thanks for listening to the show

28:50

the series is produced by me rebecca

28:53

risk

28:56

editing by is he valdez cladding

28:58

evade a dream of friends and

29:00

andrea's also check

29:03

, enter alvarado and engineering

29:05

by matthew simon said special

29:08

thanks to the atlantic's or products

29:10

audience and experimental storytelling

29:13

teams for their health on olsen