0:02

So, Becca, many years ago, I was

0:04

driving home from work and

0:06

I had a terrible day. I don't remember why, but I

0:09

was just cheesed off. You

0:11

know, it's like white knuckling my steering wheel, you

0:14

know, still angry from whatever had happened. As I

0:16

was driving, I saw a colleague of mine from

0:18

work walking to the train to

0:20

go home. And

0:22

he was just kind of sauntering down the street. And

0:25

I noticed that he was carrying a book, like

0:29

as if it were a lunchbox almost, like he was very

0:31

casually holding this book at his side. And

0:34

he had nothing else, not a bag or a backpack or

0:36

anything. And I remember looking

0:38

at him and thinking, oh man, he

0:40

has it figured out. Like what is wrong with me? That

0:43

that's not how I'm behaving now that my work day is

0:45

over. He has it figured out

0:47

because he's holding a book? Well,

0:51

the interpretation I had of what was going to happen

0:53

to him next is that he left work.

0:55

His work day was over. And he was going to get on

0:57

the train and read his book and

1:00

go home and make dinner, do whatever he

1:02

did in his evening routine. It

1:05

just somehow came naturally to him to leave

1:07

the office and begin the process of

1:09

not being at work. In

1:12

a technical sense, I could do whatever I

1:14

wanted with my leisure time once I'd left

1:17

work, but there was something preventing me from

1:19

really having control over that time. Welcome

1:24

to How to Keep Time. I'm Becca

1:27

Rashid, co-host and producer of the show. And

1:29

I'm Ian Bogus, co-host and contributing writer at

1:32

The Atlantic. So

1:34

Ian, your book story makes me think of

1:37

how many of us can't leave our work at the

1:39

door. And there's this

1:42

specific dread when you feel like your

1:44

entire day and weeks and

1:47

potentially your life will be expended

1:49

at work. I

1:51

wanted to quickly play this clip for you

1:53

of a young woman I saw on social

1:56

media, Ian, talking about how all her hours

1:58

a day are expended at work. and

2:00

she's talking about her very first 9-5 job,

2:02

she's sitting on the couch, she's in her

2:05

sweats, and she starts tearing up

2:07

a bit while talking about it. And

2:09

I know it could be worse, I know I could be

2:11

working longer, but like, I literally get off it's pitch black,

2:13

like I don't have energy, how do you have friends? Like,

2:15

how do you have time for like dating? Like,

2:17

I don't have time for anything, and

2:19

I'm like so stressed out, but like,

2:22

am I so dramatic? It's fine. Oh

2:26

wow, I mean, yeah, she's got it,

2:28

doesn't she? I really empathize with this girl. I

2:32

mean, I'm in a very different life stage, but the

2:34

situation this young woman is describing, it's not really new,

2:36

and it's

2:38

not really confined to her generation either, it's

2:40

just she's got like these fresh eyes on

2:43

it, you know? Right. Like,

2:45

what the heck? My whole day, my whole

2:47

entire life seems to be taken up

2:49

by work or work-related activities

2:51

like commuting. Right, right. And

2:53

there's no life for me left, that's what she's

2:55

saying. Right, and the

2:58

obvious first solution would be working

3:00

less and winning more time back

3:02

into yourself, but that seems

3:04

pretty unlikely as the only solution. Yeah,

3:07

but what if you could live more

3:10

for yourself even when you're

3:12

at work? Like, rather than seeing that as time

3:14

that you've lost to your boss or your company,

3:17

that's time that's like not even yours, even

3:19

though you're there, you know, you're there at work

3:21

in your body, in your time while it's happening.

3:24

And I do think in her stating it

3:26

so plainly, it forces us to sort

3:28

of revisit our mainstream

3:30

approach to this binary

3:33

we create between work and life,

3:35

which is obviously bothering her. Yeah,

3:38

like, you know, thinking of your work time as

3:40

something that isn't yours, like it's

3:42

like some ghost or some other

3:44

personality, that's the problem that has to

3:46

be solved in some way. It's

3:49

just a question whether there may

3:51

be new ways to structure our time. job

4:00

worth not

4:02

having a minute to think about yourself, you

4:04

know? I don't think so. So

4:07

Ian, you know, maybe our conditioning to

4:09

prioritize work isn't just a thing in

4:11

our heads or because we're

4:13

at the whim of our calendars. My

4:17

name is Ignacio Sanchez-Pral. I

4:20

go by NACCHO, which is short for Ignacio

4:22

in Spanish. I'm a professor

4:24

of Latin American Studies at

4:26

Washington University in St. Louis, who

4:29

researches Mexican culture broadly. Depending

4:31

on where you work or the nature of

4:34

your job, a lot of people's work require

4:36

you to leave your life at the door.

4:39

NACCHO is someone who spends time

4:41

observing and studying cultural practices. And

4:44

I wanted to ask him if and how

4:46

time can be understood as a reflection

4:48

of culture. I'm wondering if

4:51

our culture and social practices around how we should be

4:53

using our time at work can feel like more of a

4:55

barrier to using our time in a more

5:00

cohesive way, where that binary between work

5:02

and life feels less disconnected. I

5:15

think that what was surprising actually is that in the United

5:17

States, people work for working. And

5:20

I think that one thing that I want to make

5:22

clear because I don't want to make a difference. I

5:24

don't want to create this narrative where Americans

5:27

are working and Mexicans are

5:29

leisure center. Mexicans work very

5:32

hard and very productive in

5:34

Mexico, in the

5:36

office culture and the university culture.

5:40

But I don't think the notion that

5:42

you are defined by your employment is

5:44

strong. NACCHO, could

5:46

you tell me about how that

5:48

work and leisure time balance is

5:50

in Mexico? So people see their

5:52

job as a means to

5:55

An end. And then this. their family

5:57

life, their social life, their leisure, their

5:59

hobbies. I kinda difference is

6:01

not the kind of work in Brussels. Understanding

6:03

that. Putting. Me mister, your

6:05

work is right. And if you

6:08

long, you're just giving up your rights. I

6:10

seen that leads for people to. I

6:13

mean I know by the France will drop work at

6:15

the time that the work is on and they don't

6:17

care if it's done on Oct. Ray

6:19

or people who was on really

6:21

think that they should be spending

6:24

the weekend sunset emails. I think

6:26

that if you have the brutalist.

6:29

Two glasses employment. There's no jobs

6:32

that is worth destroying your mind.

6:40

My. Mom didn't know how to cook with the see

6:42

worse if they said we call they. See

6:45

comes home. See. Those not gonna

6:47

cook. But. We will

6:49

go together. Twenty thirty. And

6:52

it together. Yes traditional and Mexican

6:54

place. a sudden on the cell

6:56

is sign for dispositions Eating. When.

6:59

It comes to the Us is the first time I saw

7:01

a restaurant. I'm telling you that you had that they were

7:03

for a maximum amount of time. Rak is

7:06

at the time. They're They're very without

7:08

yeah for is admins without reservations, vulnerable

7:10

because you have to live at eleven

7:12

thirty, right? Yeah, right. Usually when you

7:14

want or when they close but nobody's

7:17

gonna com and time you whether you're

7:19

just in the table two months. Rave.

7:22

This. I would have in Spanish or so. What a

7:24

mess! An hour of the

7:26

after dinner conversation. Ah,

7:29

Aim. And and that is is so

7:31

much of as as a practice of the

7:33

somewhere for it and is called over table

7:35

right So it means that is right us

7:37

that eating on the table you just expect

7:39

the you would linger and on dinner conversation

7:41

rather than just a little hard to believe.

7:44

Ray. What's. The rush. What's

7:46

the hurry to? exactly? Yes,

7:48

Were. In the U S

7:50

it feels like even are productive approach to

7:52

work is also when we're eating. Bread.

7:55

It or it is also the fact that

7:57

be there, are supper. Also

8:00

fossil or social component to it. So

8:03

it is common that people would go from

8:05

work may maybe to mean that a family

8:07

that a children may read them in their

8:09

friends for a but I also think that

8:12

reporter sale with more gregarious. That

8:15

motivates a people.

8:17

Even. In work spaces to

8:19

socialize, One. Practice as

8:21

we have it is what is going away

8:23

because of fast with and stuff like that.

8:26

But. Because we're our launched them sort

8:28

of as a long that have a lot worse

8:31

because as a main meal. That

8:33

are video of restaurant that offer multicourse

8:35

meals and people usually go from their

8:37

offices to those places to it as

8:39

a group. And. The two hours

8:42

of they break allow you to have a

8:44

more of an engagement. With. Your

8:46

coworkers than than I have. I'm I would want

8:48

your desk. This. Is during the

8:50

week. This isn't the weakness. Oh. Can.

8:53

You describe this meal Command So jealous

8:55

guess. Is if it's a working class places collect

8:58

call me. That could be less. A. Hazard

9:00

like as. I don't have that he

9:02

has. I take those who were like

9:04

a meal or in sequins for you,

9:06

get a soup and the New Jersey

9:08

the rice or past or something and

9:10

then you'll get a main course with

9:12

a size. And. Asserts. Oh.

9:15

Yeah, so good at in early

9:17

days astronomical practice which is interesting.

9:19

Wanted somebody saw. If

9:22

you have of his workers of go

9:24

to the completely the single so four

9:26

or five sit together and as setting

9:28

up table for an hour or two.

9:31

They these the social engagement in that

9:34

office is different of course none when

9:36

everybody sitting in the cubicle him that

9:38

office. What I seen that the embezzling

9:41

of social practice in the they may

9:43

a big difference in this case for

9:45

the meant the five meant to some

9:47

and worker. in

9:50

mexico we have become more of a

9:52

big him over the corporate culture the

9:55

mean of we have lost the ability

9:57

to collect and social rugged his lungs

10:05

Oh my gosh, Becca, I just

10:07

had yesterday a supposedly social gregarious

10:09

lunch with a friend in from

10:11

out of town and the whole

10:13

time we were still like looking at our watches and like, oh, you

10:15

want to make sure you get back from your meeting and I was

10:17

checking to make sure I wasn't going to be late. So

10:20

it's really difficult. We're still at work even

10:22

when we take the time to eat that

10:24

way. I mean, I think one

10:26

of the things Nacho is pointing out is

10:28

that it's too big a

10:30

burden to ask people to create that

10:32

time for themselves. You need to make

10:35

space for it socially and culturally. There

10:38

has to be a kind of common understanding that,

10:40

you know, hanging out with your friends or even

10:42

your coworkers in a different way is

10:44

important and that that's just how your day

10:46

plays out rather than how can I figure out how to

10:48

finagle a way to be

10:51

social with the people who are important to me.

10:53

Right. And Nacho was saying

10:55

this multiple course lunch and these additional

10:57

hours that people give themselves during the

10:59

workday. There's this sort of freedom they

11:01

have to go have that

11:04

meal together and really enjoy it. And,

11:07

you know, some of the happiest countries

11:09

in the world, some of their primary

11:11

metrics of their happiness include

11:13

that freedom to make decisions and

11:15

social support, you know, both of

11:17

which could be understood as time

11:20

related in a way. They have the flexibility

11:22

to make decisions about their time and invest

11:25

that time in strengthening their

11:27

relationships. I mean, do people in those

11:29

countries just work less? Do they just have

11:31

more time on their own to play with? Well,

11:34

the three happiest countries in

11:36

the world, Finland, Denmark and

11:38

Iceland, aren't that far

11:40

off from the average American workweek in

11:42

terms of average hours worked. And

11:45

the average American workweek, which is around 38.8 hours, according to

11:47

data from 2022,

11:50

is not that

11:53

far off from Denmark's average workweek, which

11:55

is around thirty three point four hours.

11:57

Iceland's is around thirty five point five.

12:00

and Finland is around 35. So

12:02

it's not so much a matter of not

12:04

having enough hours in the day, which

12:07

was so surprising to me. Which suggests

12:09

that we don't require a whole lot of

12:11

additional time, necessarily. It's not

12:13

about finding more time, but figuring out

12:15

a different way of conceptualizing

12:17

that time in order to experience

12:19

the kind of enjoyment and

12:22

freedom that Nacho is talking about. Right.

12:30

What I find worrisome and I see in my

12:32

students sometimes, is that sometimes you

12:34

ask people what enriches you and they

12:37

don't have an answer to that question. If

12:39

you don't have an answer to that question, I will be worried.

12:42

I think that that's a question that you have to

12:44

find an answer for. What kind

12:46

of answers do they give you, if any? Well,

12:49

sometimes nothing, because sometimes they tell me just go

12:51

on TikTok, right? I'm

12:55

very addicted to social media, so I'm not going

12:57

to... I'm not going to

12:59

bring any kind of moralism to that. It's

13:02

okay if you look at Facebook, but you need to

13:04

have something that is for you a little bit more

13:06

enriching in your leisure time

13:09

in order for you to develop a sense of value

13:11

to it. I

13:13

had a student that was doing crochet even in class

13:15

and she really loved that. Sometimes they

13:18

tell me I like to paint. I

13:20

think that one of the cool places is

13:22

universities, private

13:24

ones very particularly, because

13:26

they have this structure of

13:28

a inter-curricular social activity that

13:31

is built and regulated by the university and

13:33

it takes over time of the

13:36

students. So the students never develop the ability

13:38

to develop a meaningful leisure time on their

13:40

own. They're here all

13:42

day, they live here. Right. And

13:44

I think that if you graduate from that

13:46

to the world... Right.

13:52

I've seen some of my students, they don't know

13:54

what to do with themselves after their job is

13:56

done. It

13:59

might be that sometimes... People longest donovan develop the

14:01

skill to begin with. If I were

14:03

to give practical at balls which are

14:05

like to some fancies, begin by asking

14:08

for yourself what kinds of things are

14:10

enriched You. And

14:12

then make a proactive afford to make sure that

14:14

that a part of your they. Do

14:17

have to be proactive about it than the. Hey,

14:33

I'm back or receded. Producer and co

14:35

host of The Atlantic's How To Podcasts.

14:37

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15:41

becca courting to the centers for disease

15:43

control and prevention merrick and have more

15:45

than five hours of freebies or time

15:47

per day while to feel you have

15:49

five it does not feel like five

15:51

for sure but i wasn't really sad

15:53

to me either rights and yeah i

15:55

think the reason it doesn't is because

15:57

we don't know what to do with

16:00

those five hours of time or however much

16:02

of it we have. And so it just

16:04

kind of evaporates into little

16:06

pieces. Instead of using it well, it

16:09

just banishes between our

16:11

fingers. It makes me wonder, I mean,

16:13

this is kind of an impossible question to answer, but it

16:16

only makes sense to talk about leisure time once

16:19

you have work time to compare it

16:21

to. And so back

16:23

before people had leisure, leisure is

16:25

essentially an invention of the Industrial

16:27

Revolution. So when you

16:29

would have been a peasant working the land and

16:32

your whole day's worth of time was just taken

16:34

up with subsistence from dawn to dusk and then

16:36

you couldn't do anything anyway because it was dark,

16:39

at least you kind of knew

16:41

maybe why you were doing the things that you

16:43

were doing hour to hour. Less of your time would

16:45

vanish because you had so little of it to start

16:47

with and also because you were making use of all

16:49

of it. So

16:51

you almost would prefer to know what you

16:55

were going to be doing at every hour.

16:57

Is there a decision-making component there that makes

16:59

it harder to know? OK, if this is

17:01

my free time and I just finished my

17:03

work time, how do I make the decision

17:06

about what to do now that it's

17:08

all mine? I can use it however I want.

17:10

That's exactly it. That's exactly it, Becca. OK,

17:13

I'm at work. And now I'm not at work anymore. And

17:16

so now I have to figure out what that means. Now

17:18

I'm using my time for myself. And

17:21

I'm not at work, so I really have to make

17:23

good on the leisure time that I

17:25

have. And then by the time I've figured out what

17:27

I want to do, I've burned through

17:29

half of it and don't have it anymore. But

17:32

when you're a kid and even

17:35

your leisure time is more structured, now is when you

17:37

can watch TV because that's when your parents allowed you

17:39

to. It's time to go brush your teeth or what

17:41

have you. Something about

17:44

that phase of life feels

17:46

a little better, doesn't it, in my memory anyway,

17:49

because you know what's happening next

17:51

and why. Yeah, it sounds to me,

17:53

Ian, like having that authority figure telling you

17:56

how you should be using your time is

17:58

helpful in a way. And

18:00

as Nacho said, his university students

18:02

have many of their leisure activities

18:04

baked into their day-to-day. The place

18:06

they work is also the place

18:08

they live and sleep and make

18:11

friends. So it makes it easier

18:13

to decide what to do. If everyone's

18:15

going to the football game or taking breaks

18:17

between a study session, it guards

18:20

you against the sort of decision

18:22

paralysis you may have if

18:24

you have a full Saturday afternoon

18:27

free. There are many more

18:29

variables in where should you

18:31

go, who do you want

18:33

to do that thing with, you know, gathering

18:35

everyone in one place, scheduling it, and then

18:37

make sure you have a good time. And

18:40

having that external force that

18:42

is making a decision for you is really helpful

18:44

because now you no longer have to make a

18:46

choice. And when you make a bad choice

18:49

and it's your choice, then you feel guilty for

18:51

it. You feel, I could have made any choice and I did

18:53

the wrong thing with the time I had available. I

18:56

don't care about what people think. Not everybody has

18:59

the privilege, right? Yes. Some

19:02

people get pressured because their promotions, their

19:04

salaries are tied to that, so we

19:06

don't have to be frivolous about that.

19:09

But I also think that, I

19:12

mean, it's a job worth not

19:15

having a minute to think about yourself, you know?

19:18

I don't think so. How

19:20

do you think someone who doesn't have

19:22

that flexibility in their schedule could incorporate

19:25

some of these practices in their life?

19:28

I don't think you need to be working all the

19:30

time that you're at work. Unless you

19:32

have a boss on top of you or a

19:34

computer timing you, which happens. I

19:37

mean, if you are in that, you just don't have a way

19:39

out, right? You're just in like

19:41

a work regime of constant surveillance,

19:43

right? Right. As most people

19:45

are not in that situation, bring

19:48

a book to your desk and read. Give

19:51

yourself 10 minutes every hour to read it.

19:53

Hmm. Right? I

19:55

mean, if you're going to eat and work, you might as well

19:57

eat while you're working and then take your lunch break and do

19:59

something else. People care

20:01

that they're not being perceived as good enough

20:03

workers because you are aware of

20:05

a judgment that other people are going to have

20:08

of you. Right. But

20:10

maybe you shouldn't care. Right.

20:12

Right. So

20:17

Ian, as we're analyzing these work

20:19

life boundaries, it made me think

20:22

about our American cultural norms around

20:24

work and home and

20:26

which one people think has more value

20:28

in their lives. And

20:31

interestingly, I found this data on Americans

20:33

evolving views about the meaning of life.

20:35

And there was a survey conducted from

20:38

September 2017 to February of 2021. And

20:42

it sort of tracked these changes

20:45

in people's views over this four

20:47

year period. And the Pew

20:49

Research Center asked a sample of American

20:52

adults to answer the question, what about

20:54

your life do you currently find

20:56

meaningful, fulfilling, or satisfying?

21:00

What keeps you going and why? So what

21:02

did people say? Of course, I assumed

21:04

it was work. But

21:07

surprisingly, over the course of those

21:09

four years, the share of adults who mentioned

21:11

their job or career as a source of

21:13

meaning declined from 24 to 17 percent, which

21:16

was already significantly

21:19

lower than I thought. And people

21:21

were more likely than the initial year in

21:23

2017 to mention society as a source of

21:28

meaning in life. And it's

21:30

been a very interesting time for me. It

21:37

almost sounds like we've been faking ourselves

21:39

out. Yeah, we believe that everyone else believes

21:42

that work is where we should

21:44

derive satisfaction. Right.

21:47

But in fact, very few of us in America seem to think that that's really

21:49

the case. And

21:52

instead, we want to find it in one another rather than in our

21:54

workplaces. That's

22:02

all for this episode of How to Keep

22:04

Time. The episode was hosted by

22:06

Ian Bogos and me, Becker Rashid. I

22:08

also produce the show. Our

22:10

editors are Claudina Bade and Jocelyn

22:12

Frank. Fact Check by

22:14

Anna Alvarado. Our engineer

22:17

is Rob Smirnson. Rob

22:19

also composed some of our music. The

22:22

executive producer of audio is Claudina Bade and

22:25

the managing editor of audio is Andrea

22:27

Valdez. We're

22:29

taking a quick break next week and after

22:31

all this talk about busyness and schedules, I'm

22:34

really looking forward to some risks. That's

22:36

also the topic of our next episode. Talk

22:39

to you then. Becker,

22:41

I've been over sleeping lately and I finally went

22:43

to the doctor and he recommended

22:46

that I sleep on a bed of herbs. This

22:51

is ridiculous. What? What? What?

22:53

You gotta give me a why. I've

22:56

got another one. You

23:00

want another one? Okay, let's do another one

23:02

because I started laughing too early. You started laughing

23:04

prematurely. It was a ridiculous setup. How can you tell

23:06

when your clock is hungry? Why

23:10

aren't you feeding your clock, Ian? Wow.

23:13

You know.