0:01

Julie, do you remember the first time I approached

0:03

you in the office? Because I remember

0:06

it very clearly, and I sent

0:08

you a message from behind your desk saying,

0:10

hi, can I come to your desk while

0:13

staring at you sitting at your desk.

0:16

From let's be clear, less

0:18

than 10 feet away. Yes. I

0:21

was like, yes, you can.

0:24

I remember you being like really tentative

0:27

when you kind of crept up, and I was

0:29

like, you don't have to ask permission

0:31

to come say hi to me. And

0:34

then I was wondering whether I looked like really

0:36

unapproachable or something. But I was

0:39

really excited to meet you because we'd been working

0:41

together on Zoom for a while, but it was

0:43

the first time we'd met in person.

0:45

And I promise that is not my usual

0:47

approach. I think I just forgot how to

0:50

human a little bit and what it felt like to work

0:52

with people in an office. So

0:54

I think I thought I was being polite,

0:57

but I maybe just made it a bit weird.

1:03

Hi, I'm Julie Beck, a senior editor

1:05

at The Atlantic. And I'm Becca Rasheed,

1:07

producer of the How To Series. This

1:10

is how to talk to people.

1:14

When Julie and I first got together to develop

1:16

the series after my awkward

1:18

desk approach, we talked a lot

1:20

about how we wanted the show to explore how

1:22

small, everyday conversations can become

1:25

the deeper connections that we want more

1:27

of in our lives. Knowing how

1:29

to talk to people isn't simply for the

1:31

sake of starting conversation or fighting

1:34

through the awkwardness of small talk. The

1:36

point is to ultimately reach a deeper understanding

1:39

of the people around us.

1:41

What I've always wanted and what I think so

1:43

many people long for is this

1:45

sense that you are part of a rich, interconnected

1:48

community. That you have an extended

1:51

network of support and love full

1:53

of many different kinds of relationships that

1:55

serve many different purposes. And

1:58

the types of conversations we've experienced

1:59

explored in the podcast so far are

2:02

the stepping stones that lead up to that. And

2:05

now we've arrived at our finale episode,

2:08

and

2:08

this is a big one.

2:10

We're going to talk about how you build a community,

2:13

and that can be a really complex concept.

2:16

The barriers that can make that rich

2:18

sense of community feel hard to find

2:21

are not just psychological within our own minds,

2:23

but there are cultural barriers too.

2:27

The American narrative about freedom, which is deeply

2:30

individualistic, which is

2:32

that depending on or counting on other

2:34

people makes you less free and you're more free

2:36

if you only have to count on yourself. Reaching

2:39

out may be exactly what we need to

2:41

do to find the community support we need.

2:44

I'm just like, oh, I can't figure this out. And

2:46

I'm like, duh, like ask for help.

2:48

Like talk to somebody about it. Mia

2:51

Birdsong is the author of a book called How

2:53

We Show Up, reclaiming family,

2:55

friendship, and community. In

2:57

our conversation, she explores how the

2:59

injustices baked into our country's history

3:02

have limited people's ability to connect

3:04

with one another and how we understand

3:06

the definition of community. Part

3:09

of how like somebody who was a slave, right,

3:12

was considered unfree

3:14

was not just because they were in bondage, but

3:16

because they had been separated

3:17

from their people. And

3:20

to be free was to be in

3:23

connected community. Mia

3:25

argues that today too many people

3:27

equate freedom with independence, and

3:30

that can lead us to go it alone when we don't need

3:32

to. And I think we've been told, right, that

3:34

like the people who are strong, the people

3:36

who are achieving and successful are

3:39

doing it on their own. They're figuring out how to do

3:41

it on their own. And that there is actually some

3:43

like little badge of honor

3:46

that we get from suffering.

3:51

I think we definitely tell ourselves a lot

3:53

of stories about how other people must have

3:55

it more together than we do. And

3:57

that is like so antithetical.

3:59

to what it means to be a person.

4:02

Mia gets into

4:04

all of it. She shares real advice

4:06

about how to ask people for support without

4:09

feeling bad about it, and how that

4:11

can actually bring us together.

4:15

Mia, there's been a lot of research on

4:17

how lonely Americans are, how

4:19

disconnected many people are from their

4:21

neighbors, and a lot of people feeling

4:24

like they don't have anybody to confide

4:26

in even.

4:27

What do you think is behind that? There's

4:30

a Harvard study. There's been a couple

4:32

of Cigna studies. The BBC did

4:34

a loneliness experiment, which was a global

4:37

study. And

4:39

Americans are lonely. Loneliness

4:41

has been increasing. And

4:44

unsurprisingly, the pandemic made it worse. The

4:47

BBC study was interesting because it

4:49

found that loneliness is highest among young

4:51

people, men, and

4:54

those who are in an individualistic

4:57

society, AKA America.

5:00

What is the role that you think individualism

5:03

plays in all this? Yeah,

5:06

and when I think about individualism in America,

5:08

I connect that very strongly to capitalism,

5:11

how America defines what success looks

5:13

like, and what it means to be like

5:15

a good person. And part

5:17

of what capitalism has done is it has inserted

5:20

the exchange of money.

5:23

I didn't

5:24

get together with a bunch of my friends

5:27

and build my house. I paid for

5:29

it.

5:30

You pay a person to watch

5:32

your children. What's

5:34

interesting is that among people

5:37

who

5:39

don't have money, right? Don't have as

5:41

much access to money, you see a lot more

5:44

relational childcare, right?

5:46

Like where your neighbor or your best friend

5:49

or your sister or your dad take

5:51

care of your kids. And then that social fabric,

5:53

right, gets built in that because it's

5:56

not a transaction. It is like what

5:58

family does. And then I

6:00

think the other piece is that

6:03

the definition of success

6:05

is so much about, you know,

6:08

the idea that one can be a self-made

6:10

man, right?

6:11

Or pull

6:13

yourself up by your own bootstraps.

6:16

So there's this idea that like as an individual,

6:19

you're going to work hard and you're going to make

6:21

it on your own, which invisibilizes,

6:23

of course, all of the help that people do get either

6:26

from the systems that exist

6:28

and the privileges and advantages you have depending on

6:31

your relationship with that system. So I think about, you

6:33

know, people who are born wealthy tend to

6:35

stay wealthy. If you're white, if you're male,

6:38

if you're able-bodied, if you're straight, like

6:40

there are all of these advantages that you end up having.

6:42

And there's a sense to like acknowledging

6:45

any help that you did get makes

6:48

your success seem less impressive somehow.

6:51

And we think that asking for help

6:54

is a form of weakness. The

6:56

more attached you are

6:59

to this version

7:02

of what it means to be successful and happy

7:04

and good, the less you are

7:06

connected to other humans because

7:08

you're out there trying to make it on your

7:10

own.

7:18

Part of how like somebody who was a slave,

7:21

right, was considered unfree

7:24

was not just because they were in bondage, but

7:26

because they had been separated

7:27

from their people. And

7:30

to be free was to be in

7:33

connected community. And

7:37

it added a whole other layer to how I think

7:40

about like the black experience

7:41

in America from being kidnapped

7:43

and trafficked from home. And

7:46

if we think about like our people as being not just

7:48

the human beings around us, but also like the land

7:51

we're from, our ancestors, right, through

7:54

to, you

7:55

know, an intrinsic

7:56

part of the way that

7:58

America practiced slavery was a about the

8:00

threat or experience of being sold away from

8:03

your family to

8:05

the prison industrial complex, right? And

8:08

through all of that, there's also been black people's resistance

8:10

to it from people jumping overboard slave ships, because

8:13

they're like, I'm going home one way or another. Obviously

8:16

people are running away from plantations.

8:19

After emancipation, there's this archive,

8:21

you can look at these online. There were all

8:23

of these advertisements that

8:26

we placed in newspapers, trying

8:28

to find loved ones that we hadn't

8:30

seen for decades. Sometimes

8:33

it was one of our children. Sometimes it was a parent.

8:35

Sometimes it was a best friend. Sometimes it was

8:37

a spouse. They're beautiful

8:40

and heartbreaking because they're all very short. But

8:42

they're like people talking about how

8:45

they're looking for somebody and they

8:47

were sold to this person. So

8:49

their name might've changed. The

8:51

limit on the kind of information they had about

8:53

this loved one, but the determination that

8:55

they had to find them was just like rejection

8:59

of the ways in which slavery was

9:04

making black people unfree. There was this insistence.

9:06

And the freedom to reconnect. Totally.

9:10

And I think about how many

9:12

black folks I know who find

9:14

out when they're an adult that Uncle

9:17

Bobby is not actually their dad's

9:19

brother, but is their dad's

9:20

best friend from elementary school. I

9:24

mean, I have a friend who told me about her

9:26

and her siblings looking at these family photos

9:28

and realizing they didn't know who was

9:32

chosen family and who was like blood

9:34

or legal family. And then also

9:37

ultimately that it didn't matter. And all of that

9:39

stands in such stark contrast

9:42

to the American narrative

9:44

about freedom, which is deeply individualistic,

9:47

which is that depending on or counting

9:49

on other people makes you less free and you're more

9:52

free if you only have to count on yourself,

9:55

which means that you need to

9:57

hoard resources.

9:59

so that you have everything that you need.

10:02

You get everything through transaction so

10:05

that like, you know, you don't owe anybody.

10:06

It means you don't ask for help.

10:09

It means you're not responsible for

10:11

or accountable to anybody. The

10:14

idea of freedom being like you can do whatever the hell

10:16

you want and like nobody can

10:17

tell you otherwise, right? Yeah. And

10:20

that is like so

10:21

antithetical to what it means

10:23

to be a person

10:26

because we are fundamentally

10:29

social animals. You know, we're not

10:32

lizards that like hatch out of an

10:34

egg and then go about our business and

10:36

able to like fend for ourselves. Just sunning yourself on

10:38

a rock by yourself. We can't go and just

10:41

like immediately,

10:42

but we're not born and then we just like go get feed

10:44

ourselves. Like we need

10:46

care, right? That is like part of

10:48

what we need certainly as babies, right?

10:51

No baby can do anything for herself as

10:53

children and as adults. And

10:56

this American idea of freedom is so separated

10:58

from that. So when you say the

11:01

American dream narrative

11:03

is antithetical to freedom, what

11:05

do you specifically mean

11:06

by the American dream narrative?

11:10

So when I think about the

11:12

kind of fundamental ideals that

11:14

were written into,

11:16

you know, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights,

11:18

and the idea of

11:21

life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and

11:23

who was articulating

11:26

that, right? So we had

11:30

white straight as

11:32

far as we know, right? Landowning

11:36

men who represented

11:40

a minority of the American population.

11:43

Women were not considered at all. That's like half right there.

11:46

No black people, no

11:48

poor people.

11:51

So when I think about that and I think

11:54

about what the American dream is, that's the ideal,

11:56

right? And that you do

11:58

that through

11:59

working. hard, not

12:01

asking for help, and

12:04

you're amassing your kingdom. That

12:09

is not being

12:11

a person. That is

12:14

not about being in community.

12:16

It's not about caring for others.

12:19

There's nothing in there about love.

12:22

It's such an existentially

12:25

central part of the human experience,

12:28

our pursuit of and desire

12:31

for and need for love.

12:41

Can you tell me about a time

12:43

your community really showed up for you? Yes.

12:47

In July of 2021, I got

12:49

diagnosed with

12:52

colon cancer.

12:55

I was

12:59

going to have to have surgery and ultimately

13:02

went through three months of really intensive

13:10

chemotherapy, very aggressive chemo. It

13:14

was no fun. 20 minutes after I got

13:16

the news, I

13:20

had a phone call with my

13:22

friend Aisha. We were working on a project together.

13:25

And I was all

13:28

anxious, not because I had been told I had cancer,

13:30

but because I didn't know when I

13:32

was going to be able to continue the project. I

13:35

totally got on the phone with her and I was like,

13:38

girl, I'm so sorry, but

13:41

I just found out I have cancer and I have to have surgery,

13:43

so I'm going to have to postpone

13:46

my work on this project. She

13:48

was like, Mia. She

13:52

was like,

13:53

let's take a breath.

13:55

And in that breath, I

13:58

moved from.

13:59

kind of like my hiding

14:01

from what was scary about

14:04

this behind,

14:06

like, I have to get this work done. To

14:10

being in this place of being able to like, one,

14:13

feel how afraid I was, but also

14:15

like not alone. Before

14:18

we got off the phone, she

14:20

had the meal

14:21

train set up that

14:23

would ultimately make sure that my

14:25

family got fed

14:27

while I was in the hospital recovering from surgery

14:29

and then for the three months

14:31

that I was going through chemo.

14:33

She then circled

14:35

up with three other friends of

14:37

ours and this

14:40

group of black women

14:41

who called themselves Mia's Care Squad,

14:45

then basically coordinated like

14:49

all of the things with all the rest

14:51

of my community, like my larger community

14:53

that I would need. They made spreadsheets,

14:56

like they had email

14:59

chains, a squad of people

15:01

who would run errands for me. They

15:04

collected everybody's advice.

15:05

So I wasn't getting bombarded with like,

15:08

you know, all kinds of advice, but I totally wanted advice

15:10

because I was like, I never had cancer before. I

15:12

want the advice.

15:13

Like, I feel like there was this way in which they tended

15:15

to my physical wellbeing, but

15:17

they also were tending to my spirit and

15:19

my heart. They created a joy fund

15:22

for me. Oh my gosh, what does that mean? Which

15:24

like was a pile of money for me to spend

15:27

only on things that would bring me joy.

15:28

I bought a lot of art supplies. When

15:32

I was having surgery, there was a group

15:34

of people outside on the hospital

15:36

lawn singing for me. The

15:42

way that this group of people

15:45

came together

15:47

and I remember having this moment

15:50

in the beginning

15:51

of being like, I am absolutely

15:53

going to tell my community

15:56

what's going on with me.

15:57

I'm not gonna be one of those people who like, you

15:59

know. like secretly goes through chemo. I'm

16:01

like, everybody's gonna know. And

16:04

I am absolutely asking for their help. I

16:07

do not want to do this thing by myself.

16:10

What did it feel like to hear your friends

16:13

singing outside your hospital room? Well,

16:15

I couldn't hear them because I was in the basement

16:17

of the hospital having

16:18

my part of my colon taken out. But

16:21

I knew that they were there. And

16:23

like, I remember as I was getting the

16:25

like anesthesia, like holding, because

16:27

I saw them when I was coming into the hospital, I

16:30

remember just like holding them in my head.

16:34

And oh my God, like it was so,

16:36

cause I was, you know, I was

16:38

terrified. I was so comforting

16:41

to know that they were out there singing

16:43

for me. So

16:45

I've now been cancer free

16:47

for more than a year. And

16:51

when I look back on that experience,

16:54

I mean, it sucked, it was terrible. Like

16:56

cancer sucks, chemo sucks. But

16:59

there's a way in which it like wove

17:01

the fabric of community together tighter

17:04

for them.

17:04

I mean, we have shared the spreadsheets

17:07

with so many other people. And

17:10

I know that what my community did

17:12

has been a model for other people

17:14

who have also gone through cancer or

17:16

just like, you know, something terrible. I

17:19

feel so

17:20

grateful that I got to

17:22

have that level of love and care

17:25

and that I didn't have

17:27

any shame about receiving it.

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18:19

I want to talk more about asking

18:22

for help and offering help because I feel

18:24

like that's very loaded. Why

18:26

are so many of us hesitant

18:28

to ask for help?

18:31

I think that one,

18:33

we often don't see people asking for

18:35

help. So we think everybody else is doing

18:37

it on their own, which is a lie.

18:41

Not only is everybody else doing it on their own, but like

18:43

it's easy, right? When in fact,

18:45

all of us are just a hot mess if we're doing it on our own,

18:47

we're suffering. It's all smoke and mirrors. Totally.

18:50

So there's that piece. And I think we've

18:52

been told, right, that like

18:54

the people who are strong, who are achieving and

18:56

successful are doing it on

18:58

their own. They're figuring out how to do it on their own. And

19:01

that there is actually some like

19:03

little badge of honor that

19:05

we get from suffering.

19:08

When I was in my 20s and

19:10

30s, especially,

19:12

the way that people would say like how

19:15

they got no sleep

19:16

and were really tired as

19:18

like something they were proud of. I worked so

19:21

much. I'm so busy. My calendar is

19:23

so full. I'm so tired.

19:25

Exactly. Like congratulations. Yes,

19:29

exactly. Like that thing, that is

19:32

like, I have suffered

19:33

in order to be productive.

19:35

I have suffered in order to achieve. So

19:38

that there is some way in which we have tied

19:40

together, suffering and

19:43

pain with being a good person

19:45

and achievement.

19:50

I feel like I'm at this place where

19:52

I'm like, no, I want ease.

19:55

Just because I can do something myself doesn't

19:57

mean that I should. I absolutely

19:59

have to run out of time.

19:59

I often find myself struggling, usually

20:03

it's

20:03

something that I'm thinking, not so much like a task I need

20:05

to do,

20:06

but I'm just like, oh, I can't figure this out. And

20:09

I'm like, duh, like ask for

20:11

help. Like talk to somebody about it. And

20:13

inevitably, even if it's just sharing the like anxiety

20:18

or stress or

20:19

hardness of the thing, like I automatically

20:21

feel better just because I'm being witnessed. Is

20:26

there a right way to

20:28

ask for help? Well, I'm gonna tell

20:30

you what works for me. I

20:32

often find generally that casting

20:34

a wide net is better. Asking one person and them saying

20:37

no means you have to go do it

20:39

again. You know, when I text my

20:41

neighbors for a lemon, right? I text all of

20:43

them. I'm not texting them one at a time. I

20:45

think the other thing is to tell on yourself and

20:47

to say to tattle on yourself. I

20:49

need to, yes, to be like,

20:50

I need help with something. I'm

20:54

finding it really challenging to ask for help. I

20:57

don't wanna

20:58

be a burden. I'm gonna

21:00

do it anyway. And then

21:03

like

21:03

ideally you're able to have conversations with people and they can

21:05

reassure you that

21:08

you're not a burden.

21:10

I don't know anybody who is constantly asking for help that

21:13

other people are like, oh my God, like stop. Like that's not

21:15

my experience. I feel like

21:18

mostly we don't ask enough. Maybe

21:22

practice with things that feel like

21:25

less of a lift,

21:26

that don't feel so like critical

21:29

to you, but that feel like they would bring you some

21:31

ease. If you know a friend is going to

21:33

the store, right? Ask them

21:35

to pick you up

21:36

some coffee because they're gonna be there

21:38

anyway. And then you can go

21:40

by and get the coffee.

21:42

And if they say no to picking up the coffee

21:44

that doesn't destroy my confidence

21:47

in the same way. Totally. I'm not like, oh my

21:49

God, like maybe I already have coffee

21:51

and I'm just gonna like pretend I need coffee and

21:53

see what happens. What are your thoughts

21:55

on the right way to offer help? Because

21:59

a piece of it

21:59

advice that I hear a lot is

22:02

that you shouldn't ask, how can I help

22:04

or what can I do for you? Because that's more

22:07

stress on the person to then find something

22:09

for you to do when maybe they're in crisis or

22:11

something. So the advice is like- Right,

22:13

cuz it's not specific. Yeah, and then the advice is you

22:16

should just do something without being asked. But

22:18

then what if that's unwelcome?

22:21

Totally, so

22:21

this is where I'm also like, we

22:23

need to stop trying to get an A in

22:26

asking and offering for help. I

22:29

feel very called out by that. We're

22:31

gonna mess it up, right? Like we're going to, I

22:33

know, all of the high achievers are like,

22:37

I wanna get an A plus in offering help. I

22:39

think if we really have no idea

22:42

what we can offer, we can say to people,

22:45

I wanna offer some help and I don't know

22:47

what would be useful to you.

22:49

Do you have an idea about something that would be useful?

22:52

Or is there someone who is close to you who

22:54

does know what might be useful and can I talk to them? We

22:57

don't wanna offer help that is not useful because

22:59

it feels risky.

23:01

And I think this is where we have to

23:04

tap into what

23:06

we know about our loved ones and

23:10

come up with, here are three things that you could

23:13

offer, right?

23:14

And offer those and see if they want any of them or

23:17

do a thing and

23:18

see what happens and

23:21

bring them food. Give them food.

23:23

The death of a loved one is not gonna be made

23:25

worse by the fact that you gave

23:26

them bread and they're gluten free. Right. Right.

23:29

Small potatoes at that point. Exactly.

23:32

Like when I think about something like a joy fund,

23:34

right? Like there's a kind of imagination

23:37

that

23:38

was required to come up with that. That

23:42

I think is harder in times

23:44

where we're all like grinding with work

23:47

and shepherding children and commuting

23:50

and all of that, right? There

23:52

was something about the slowing down of

23:54

the pandemic. And in my mind, that

23:56

was the like slowing down of

23:58

the wheel of capital.

23:59

that gave

24:02

people room to show up for me in

24:04

a particular way. And I'm saying all

24:06

of that because I want us, especially

24:09

right now, we're not post pandemic, but

24:11

the wheel of capitalism has started, is

24:14

winding along the

24:15

way that it was before. And

24:17

like our mental capacity gets

24:19

sucked up by

24:21

both our paid and unpaid labor and

24:24

all of, you know, keeping our lives going. So

24:26

I want us to give ourselves some grace

24:29

when we find it challenging to

24:31

make the space that we need

24:32

for community. Right, because

24:35

it's not entirely our doing. Exactly.

24:43

Julie, there was an interesting survey on time

24:45

use showing that by 2019, the average

24:47

American was spending only four hours

24:50

per week with friends, which doesn't

24:52

seem like a whole lot of time to me. And

24:55

there was an almost 40% decline from

24:57

five years before that. So it seems

25:00

like there's so much we're pressured to

25:02

squeeze into a week or a day

25:04

that four hours per week

25:07

is all many people can even manage. And

25:10

that was even before the pandemic too. So

25:12

I

25:12

can't imagine it's gotten better since

25:15

then. But you're right,

25:17

Becca, that like time is finite and

25:19

life is full of demands, which is breaking

25:21

news, I know. I mean, it would

25:23

be nice to see those stats go up, but

25:26

also no matter what, it's never

25:28

gonna be possible to always be a perfect

25:31

friend or a perfect neighbor. Mia

25:33

said, you need to stop trying to get an A plus

25:36

in helping people. And I felt very personally

25:38

roasted by that. Because

25:41

like sometimes I do think

25:43

about community building as homework.

25:48

Even though I wanna focus on relationships

25:51

more than personal achievement in my

25:53

life, those values of

25:55

hard work and perfectionism like follow

25:57

me into my personal life as well. where

26:01

if I'm not living up to that ideal of

26:03

creating a perfect utopian community

26:06

for me and the people I love, then I'm like

26:08

subconsciously giving myself a

26:11

bad grade. Oh, what

26:13

a nerd. You're

26:15

not a nerd. You're just, you're trying to

26:17

stay on top of it. Like I make

26:21

a point on Sunday evenings too to kind

26:23

of write out a list of

26:25

things I maybe want to do in the next few

26:27

weeks. And then I try to actually set up

26:29

social time with

26:32

my group of friends. I actually started

26:34

a little neighborhood supper club with my friends

26:36

where we do like themed

26:38

dinners every month. So I

26:41

actually like that it's kind of created

26:43

this routine for us

26:45

where I know that we have this thing

26:47

that we like doing together and we'll do our

26:49

best to make it happen.

26:51

I like that you like attend to

26:53

your correspondences on Sunday

26:55

night. It's like very pride and prejudice of you.

26:59

So Mia, we've

27:01

been talking a lot about how, you know,

27:04

communities

27:07

show up for each other in a crisis. And

27:10

I think most people are really ready to show up in

27:12

a crisis, but how can we have

27:14

that kind of interdependence when it's

27:16

not a crisis? Right, because

27:18

all of us are going to experience

27:21

crisis. That's just like a given. I

27:23

have met so many older white

27:25

men who

27:26

their wives die

27:28

and

27:32

they're in this

27:35

moment of crisis and they have nobody. They

27:39

have their therapist is who they have. They

27:41

will just start talking to anybody about what's going

27:43

on with them because they are so lonely.

27:46

So I think about that as like

27:48

the opposite of what we want. Yeah. And

27:51

part of it for them is that they have like, they've

27:54

kind of put all of their

27:55

social connection in the

27:58

one basket of their wife.

28:00

And when that person doesn't exist

28:03

anymore, they're just like set adrift.

28:06

So community is by

28:08

its nature, something that has to be built

28:11

by multiple people, of course, but

28:13

if you are feeling a lack of community

28:15

in your life, what can you as

28:18

an individual do to kickstart

28:20

that process? Like the advice

28:22

people get is often to like join a thing. And

28:25

I'm like, that sounds lame in some way,

28:27

but I'm like, it's also

28:28

totally true, especially as adults, right? We don't have

28:30

that built in kind of like school

28:33

situation where we're meeting people who

28:36

we know we're building friendships with. Right,

28:38

we have work. Exactly, which like I

28:40

feel like is not actually where you should be centering

28:42

your social life because despite

28:44

what your boss might say, your work is not your family

28:47

and you could get fired. People obviously

28:49

build genuine relationships there, but I'm like,

28:52

that should just not be your like most important

28:54

social interaction.

28:55

So I'm like

28:56

book clubs, activism, if

28:59

you have some kind

29:00

of faith, like a faith community, because

29:02

you're not going to meet people sitting

29:04

at home. Like I've

29:06

tried, it doesn't work. I

29:09

think the other piece is that sometimes we know

29:11

people, but we don't allow ourselves

29:13

to be known by them, right? Like we're not

29:16

having the kinds of conversations that

29:19

allow people to like see

29:21

into the interior of our lives.

29:24

We're not really telling

29:25

them what's going on with us. We stick

29:27

to small talk, right? Like it is

29:29

a like recounting of like what

29:32

happened that was interesting in your life. And

29:34

you say that you're good as opposed

29:36

to

29:38

what you're struggling with or how you're actually

29:40

feeling or

29:42

something that you're wrestling with that

29:44

could

29:45

even be like an intellectual thing. It

29:47

doesn't have to be like, you know, painful,

29:50

but we keep things at this surface

29:52

level and we don't allow things to go deep. How

29:55

do you figure out what you want

29:58

a community to look like in your life?

29:59

and then bring that into

30:02

the real world. It seems like a very

30:04

basic question, but it also seems really hard

30:06

to actually

30:07

do it. Yes. And

30:10

part of it is like to get quiet with yourself.

30:13

Like notice

30:14

the part of you that is longing for

30:16

something. And

30:19

I think to make some, like to make room

30:21

for it and to notice how you're

30:24

thinking about that part, like if it makes

30:26

you anxious or if you wish

30:28

it didn't exist or if it's

30:32

beautiful in some way to you, but like to really

30:34

just like sit and find that piece

30:36

of you. And I think you have to like

30:38

ask it, right? What is it that it wants?

30:41

You

30:41

don't make a strategic plan for building community.

30:43

You don't like do it. You don't

30:46

do it in a day. So then it's

30:48

really about like seeing what that

30:50

leads

30:50

you to and seeing who it leads

30:52

you to. I think for many of us, we

30:54

have people in our lives, but we want to

30:56

bring them closer in some way. I

31:00

think that we actually have

31:02

more

31:03

knowledge and wisdom about

31:04

how to build relationship than

31:07

we give ourselves credit for. And

31:09

I think primarily

31:11

what gets in our way is not, do

31:14

we know what to do,

31:15

but are we willing to do it?

31:18

There is no way to have

31:20

close relationship without

31:23

allowing yourself to be seen in some way.

31:25

And I think many of us,

31:27

I am many of us

31:29

are terrified of being

31:31

known. We want people to see

31:34

the best version of ourself because we think that that's

31:36

the version that people will love. That's

31:39

the

31:39

version that people will praise.

31:42

That's the version that people will want

31:44

to be around.

31:46

But nobody is

31:49

that version of themselves. We are all, sure

31:52

we do good and we do well, but we also mess

31:54

up and are unsure and

31:56

insecure and...

34:00

transactional.

34:02

I mean, I think another hallmark of life

34:04

in our capitalistic society,

34:07

right, is the sort of pressure to

34:09

optimize and self-improve all

34:12

the time. And I fall

34:14

into that trap of thinking like, oh, things

34:16

will be better if I change this or if I change

34:18

that. So it kind of strikes me that a lot

34:20

of my angst comes

34:23

from feeling like I need to optimize

34:25

my community towards some ideal

34:28

through my own hard work, which is

34:30

actually a very self-centered way to think about

34:32

it. The point of community is

34:34

that it's not just in one individual's

34:36

control. And as much as

34:38

it is good to put effort into your relationships,

34:41

you also have to just let go

34:43

and be curious and see what's actually

34:45

there and enjoy what's there.

34:48

And I think when you do try to control the

34:50

situation, you can end up with

34:53

our messaging behind the desk situation

34:55

where before saying hi, I

34:59

thought it was maybe a better idea to message

35:02

you first and make sure that you were comfortable with

35:04

the interaction and all of that. And

35:07

an imperfect, awkward beginning

35:09

like that can actually lead to something

35:11

great because we've really become friends

35:13

while making this podcast. We have. You've

35:16

been to my house. Like, we've had many long,

35:18

rambly, chatty drinks together. You've

35:21

met my partner. You met my sister. You've

35:23

met a bunch of my friends. And,

35:25

you know, some of that was the result

35:27

of intentional effort and

35:29

planning and scheduling. But it was

35:31

also the result of like easing up on

35:33

the overthinking and just being

35:35

together.

35:36

So I think it's a balance, right,

35:39

of effort and ease or effort,

35:42

but not to like a neurotic degree.

35:53

That's all for this season of How to Talk to People.

35:56

This episode was produced by me, Becca Rashid,

35:59

and hosted by Jana.

35:59

Julie Beck, editing by Jocelyn

36:02

Frank. Fact Check by Anna

36:04

Alvarado. Engineering and Sound

36:06

Design by Rob Smersiak. Special

36:08

thanks to A.C. Valdez. Thank

36:10

you to the Atlantic's art team, Gabriela

36:13

Pascada, Caroline Smith, and

36:15

Jehan Jelani. The executive

36:17

producer of audio is Claudina Bathe. The

36:20

managing editor of audio is Andrea Valdez.

36:28

I just liked the image of you like

36:30

sitting down at your writing desk. And

36:32

now I tell it to my texts. Dear

36:35

Judith, no that's actually how I text. You are formally

36:37

invited. That is actually how I

36:39

text. Sunday evening I take my phone, I

36:41

sit on my couch, and I'm like, scroll, scroll,

36:44

scroll. You're such an Austin hero

36:46

and I love it.