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Mike Montague 00:00 Hey everybody, we are back with another How to Succeed podcast the show that helps you get to the top and stay there. This is how to succeed at building a non profit. I am your host, Mike Montague, and I am the head coach at Sandler. And my guest this week is Mike Kenny. He is from Warrior's ascent. We're gonna find all about that and his mission to help save lives. And it's a big topic today. And we help a lot of nonprofits, we have a nonprofit scholarship that we give out at many locations around the world. If you're interested in that, go to sandler.com. Find a location near you, and reach out. But we love helping people. And we love having these guests on the podcast. We've talked previously about people using Sandler tactics to stop human trafficking and Africa or to help veterans, get new jobs and all kinds of cool things. So we're excited to talk to Mike Kenny, about warriors ascent. Find them at warriors ascent.org. Mike, welcome to the show. Tell me a little bit about warriors ascent, what you're doing with the work there. And then we'll get into the Sandler stuff about how you've been growing. Fantastic, Mike Kenny 01:15 Mike, first and foremost, thanks so much. It's an honor to be here. Appreciate it. Yeah. So I'm Mike Kenny, Executive Director for worries ascent. And we are a 501 C three nonprofit organization that helps veterans and first responders with post traumatic stress. We like to say that we empower our participants to take ownership of their lives and healing. And we do so with a five day program that provides our participants the tools to heal intent, the mind, body and soul. So I'm a 22 year veteran, myself West Point grad, and spent, I'd say the preponderance of my career in the special forces. And in the Special Forces, we'd always talk about building partner capacity, and endeavoring to work ourselves out of a job. And our approach it was the center is no difference. In the end, we want to teach men and women to fish, not necessarily just give them fish, you know, so really, what it is that we are trying to do is give them the tools to get them on the path to healing. We, of course, provide a supportive community and you know, and a variety of other ahsay tools, and enablers. But bottom line is we want to build the capacity.

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Mike Montague 02:25 Amazing mission, thank you for your service. And thanks for helping the other veterans and stuff too. It can be quite a challenge. I want to start with our conversation as we always do with attitude. I know there's some alignments with what Sandler does and what you do in the attitude bucket. But well, let's go ahead and start there. And then let's talk about how nonprofits mess this up. Because I think sometimes nonprofits have a tendency, maybe in the early years, to focus more on the mission, and not on sustainability of maybe their resources and things and how they can grow this. So there might be some common myths and misconceptions we can talk about and building a nonprofit. Mike Kenny 03:09 Absolutely. You know, so, as you'd mentioned before, we are, you know, grateful to be one of the recipients for the the scholarship program with Sandler through, you know, I remember through a Rick Burgess and Steve Montague, your dad, they interviewed us and and I believe it was Steve opined that, hey, and hearing about your organization, and your approach, it very much I'll say, philosophically aligns with Sandler, the Sandler method, not the least of which is the I'll say the attitudinal aspects of it. So you've got your mind, body and your mind, body and spirit in Sandler for us a mind, body and soul? That is, I'd say an absolutely critical aspect of what it is that we do. It's a holistic program that was sent. And I've come to find that Sandler is no different, you know, coming in, as I think I've mentioned to you before, I was really expecting with Sandler, that it would be more, I'll say, techniques based, alright, here's how to sell here's the sales process. Here's a pipeline. And I was very grateful. And happy to find that actually, it similarly is a very holistic approach, the, you know, the attitudes, the behaviors, I'll say, setting the conditions for success. And then, of course, you know, getting into the techniques. But getting back to what you're saying about running a successful nonprofit. I think exactly that people get fixated on the mission, which they should absolutely, because having a compelling case for supports, is absolutely critical. I mean, if you've got a mission that people can't get behind, you're not going to flourish. But at the same time, if you don't have the organizational structures, or if you don't have an attitude of success, that our mission is worthy of support, and that we've got the skills and the attributes to you know, dare I say sell art program and make a compelling case for support such that a people want to support number one, and number two, that you can impress upon them, the notion that you're a good custodian of donor funds. And that you can actually deliver, you know, and it's, it's the outcomes based assessment model, for lack of a better word, if you can't have shared outcomes. And the notion that you can convert those resources, you know, donor dollars into great outcomes, you're not going to get the support success that you that you're looking for, well, that's an interesting

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Mike Montague 05:30 place to start. And with your attitude, that really, you have at least two sales here, right, you have the sale to the people that you're serving, but you also have the sale to the donors to to help you do this, that you can make those those outcomes. And I think that's a great place to start. And I love that you mentioned the confidence there is that you got to really believe that what you're in what you're doing, that you can make a difference and be able to prove that to have that confidence to go to both parties and and say, Hey, we can help you. And we can make a difference here, right? Like Mike Kenny 06:04 you've touched on an absolutely critical aspect, I'd like to say that we have a bifurcated customer funnel. And the messaging for each is a little different, as is the value proposition. So you know, first and foremost, our clients, that people that we serve, I mean, that is our raison Dadra, right. So you know, our reason for being, and if we can't convey to our clients and our donors for that matter, that we can actually produce good outcomes, then, you know, hey, we're not worthy of support. So the messaging, the marketing, all of that, really, at least for our customer, needs to be geared towards our methodology, the efficacy behind our approach, testimonials, you know, I'm sure you're familiar with Robert shell, Dini and influence, right. In the Bible. It's social proof, you know, beyond just getting a sports star to sound like these guys know, you have a client that's like, hey, this program saved my life. And we have an abundance of those. I'll share with you a little bit just very briefly of my journey. I'm very data driven guy, systems engineer. So I was all about data, data, data, data data, which we have, we've got a study done in a an American Psychological Association Journal of psychotherapy integration that I'll say, explicates and extols the virtue of the program lays out what it is that we're doing and the efficacy and all that stuff. But I came to realize very early on, if you don't have the human aspect, you know, that person that says, hey, listen, I'm a human being just like you. And I'm here to tell you, this program really helped me save me or in some cases, my kids still have a dad, because of this program. That is the real thing that connects with people. And then if you've got the data to substantiate that claim, all the better.

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Mike Montague 07:52 Yeah, that is amazing. I before we move on to behaviors, and what it takes to actually keep a nonprofit going like this, I wanted to ask you kind of what the Where do you feel like most nonprofits struggle? Or what's the hardest part about keeping this thing going? Mike Kenny 08:12 That's a great question. So you know, in terms of behaviors, goal setting, right short term, long term, daily goals, not only do we need to abide by that, like I'll say organizationally, but you know, as I've mentioned before, there are palette parallels between what it is that we teach our clients to keep them on track and put them on the path to healing. But then, you know, we also have to abide by that ourselves organizational and me personally. So we'll talk about self efficacy, as an example. And self efficacy, you know, I'll say clinically is number one, the belief that you can, in fact, be effective, right, so it's more of like a system of beliefs. But part and parcel with that is the ability to be effective, you know, such that you can actually convince yourself and believe that you are effective. And so much of that is goal setting. And that is one of the blocks of instruction that will teach at the tail end, we like to say like in terms of like a life campaign plan. It's like, we'd like to say, and I'm quoting, I think Michael Hyatt, he says people spend more time planning a vacation than they do planning their lives. You say that and people go, Whoa, I've never thought of it like that. So we'll break out how to do that. You know, how to plan how to, you know, both both daily, monthly, we've done goal setting, you know, seminars, with Sandler vision boards, all the stuff that you guys do. It's fantastic. And some of it, you know, and I think probably a lot of people out there will go, yeah, no, I get it. There's no epiphanies there. But do you do it? Do you set the time aside? That is the critical aspect is carving that time? Yeah,

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Mike Montague 09:46 the hardest part about the behavior is actually doing it. Right. There's a lot there. And I appreciate what you said because I think it does line up a lot with Sandler that we talk about all the time as being a product of our product. In practicing what we preach, and I liked that you have that too, I find in my life, I like these kinds of traps for myself that if I'm going to tell everybody else to do their annual goal setting, I better do mine. You know, and make sure I can prove it and have an example and, and work with what I know works best. And I think that's what a lot of the behavior triangle is, for me is doing things that I think I know are sustainable. I know it's best practice, and I know it's gonna get my peak performance and peak output. And I'm sure you saw that and your your clients see that a lot in the military too, is we know people don't perform at their best when they're stressed and tired and worn out. And we either need to put safeguards in there, we need to make sure they don't get stressed and worn out and, and tired to do that. And keeping yourself together a lot of times is the the first step to helping other people. And I think nonprofits need to hear that a lot. Mike Kenny 11:02 We like to say, you know, self care is not selfish. So everyone's familiar with Stephen Covey write the seven, seven principles of Highly Effective People. And he talks about sharpening the saw, right. And I'll say, we're a big proponent of that. And we have a, I'll say, a client base of people, group veterans and first responders, for whom taking care of themselves, you know, I'll say first is, is anathema to the way it is that they do business. But we like to say that if you're not showing up as your best self, if you're not taking care of yourself, you're really not doing anybody any good. So self care is not selfish, you know, you've got to set the time aside and not in some overindulgent, hedonistic, you know, way, where I'm just gonna go to the spa all day? No, certainly not. But you know, the other, I'll say metaphor that you use a military ism is in the military, you've got what they call PMCs, preventative maintenance checks and services. So your weapons systems, your vehicles, whatever they might be, you daily, have to do your preventative maintenance checks and services, to make sure that, that that equipment is serviceable, and it's going to be able to form its mission optimally. And if you're not doing that for yourself, you know, then then, you know, you're you're failing, you know, you're you're not showing up as your best self and you're not doing anyone any good. Yeah, absolutely, I would say it's absolutely essential to make sure that, you know, any, any organization, nonprofits or otherwise do the same. And I

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Mike Montague 12:35 love what you said about, it's not going to the spa all day, too. I think sometimes people miss that, in your military training, testing your limits, and expanding your comfort zones is an important part of living your best life. So it's not all about being comfortable and taking care of yourself away that you're treating, but high intensity training, weightlifting, and running is best for your health. It's not easy, but those are the the right choices, to maintain the systems that we have going to write. It's not always just the care and cleaning of the equipment, but it's testing them, and testing their limits to that of people and processes, and systems that really make them sustainable over time. Mike Kenny 13:23 No, absolutely. You know, one of the things that we'll talk about is Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And I think most people are familiar with the base needs, you know, food, water, shelter, et cetera, et cetera. But then there's self actualization, that's at the pinnacle, right? And a lot of people are like, what, what's that, you know, and one of his sayings is one can be, one must be, right. And the other thing is, you can either step forward into growth, or back into safety. And I think, you know, not not to wax philosophically now. But I think we are in an era where people are pursuing comfort at all costs. And they figure that, hey, the height, the apogee of, of civilization, and evolution is to never be uncomfortable to never, you know, have to push yourself. And I think people do so to their detriment. And that's not to say, and then put your, you know, we had some, like, you know, subzero weather here in Kansas City, just saying, hey, go run in shorts and a T shirt and see how hard getting I'm not saying that. But, you know, to do the tough things that are going to help you grow. That's absolutely critical. And some of that's going to be uncomfortable. You know, and, you know, the other saying is, growth is a little bit beyond your comfort zone. You know, so I think having that mindset and I know that that is the case with Sandler, that they continue to reinforce that, hey, you know, you got to put yourself out there you got to do the uncomfortable things to be successful. So I don't say words to send both for our clients and then for our organization, our philosophy is no different.

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Mike Montague 14:56 And in building a nonprofit, what are some of the key behaviors that you have to do on a regular basis, as far as, you know, planning, fundraising, keeping a goal on making sure that you continue to get to do this, what are some of the things like in your cookbook for success? For Mike Kenny 15:17 us, you know, I like to say it again, I borrow from the military, our battle rhythm, as they call it, you know, which is alright, this is how we do business day to day, week to week or whatever it might be. I mean, it's everything. The other thing I'll say, backing up a little bit in our plans, we'll have our lines of effort and other militaries, you know, organizational level planning. But But obviously, it's, it's, you know, value value creation of the programmatic. So we focus on that. And again, our piece to the resistance, you know, what it is that we do is our five day, you know, holistic program, that's what we're known for. But then the other forms of value, and we'll do webinars, we'll do a podcast, and a variety of the things refresher training we're in it's not only for our alum, but it's also for donors, funders, supporters to kind of get a sense of where we're at. So we'll do stuff like that, and track that, hey, where are we with that, let's mark that accordingly, then there's related to that the marketing, so you can have all sorts of value. But if you're not marketing that value, so that sees the light of day and people are aware of it, you've got nothing as well. So then there's that component, then there's where Sandler comes in, you know, there's the development piece. So, you know, that for us is fundraising. Earned Income is something that we're looking at as well. So beyond just the philanthropic a, please give us a donation, we're worthy of it is doing some of what it is that we do for reimbursement, you know, because we we do those therapeutic retreats. And then of course, you know, there's admin and a variety of other things, but it's just the the day to day week to week planning. And then also the tracking marketing, you know, I know that's one of the one of the facets of the you know, the behavior triangle in terms of planning is tracking. But Peter Drucker says that which is measured as managed, so if you're not tracking it, if you're not seeing, you know, what your social media reach is, what your conversions are, newsletter, you know, outcomes with data, if you don't have a good sense of where you're at beyond the baseline, your your How can you measure progress, if you you know, and know that you're making a difference unless you measure it accordingly.

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Mike Montague 17:25 Amazing. Now, as we get to the technique bucket, I imagine that there's a whole bunch of these, so I'll just kind of start with an open ended question about your Sandler experience so far, have you found a particular Sandler rule tactic or, or technique interesting, and helping you with building a nonprofit? Mike Kenny 17:44 I would say, the upfront contract is an absolute game changer. Because you know, so many people, I'll say, bumble into these meetings, and I never go into anything unprepared. It's not my nature as a military guy. But what I love about Sandler is with the techniques, you know, beyond again, you know, I'll say that the, the condition setting the behavioral, the attitudinal is Alright, hey, this is how you structure these things. So you know, the building rapport piece, absolutely critical pain funnel, in terms of, hey, let me relate to what it is that these people are feeling in terms of pain. You mentioned before, we really have two funnels. One is our client was just our donor, they feel different types of pain, and you need to appeal to them in at a different level.

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Mike Montague 18:33 So geez, for about the donor visa, I don't want to interrupt you there. But I find it fascinating. Every nonprofit I talk to they have similar but I think different pains of why people would donate especially large sums of money. In your experience, what are the problems they're trying to solve with? With those donations? And how are you getting abled people able to commit to two years versus somebody else's? No, Mike Kenny 19:04 that's a great question. That's a question for the ages. No. My perception is this. And again, related to you know, some of the sand the processes, in building rapport you come to find in sometimes it's outright sometimes they'll say, and they're giving strategy. This is who it is that we give to you, whether it's a corporation, a foundation, or what have you. But individually, invariably, you come to find, you know, my brother was a veteran, or, you know, a family member or a friend committed suicide. There's a personal it's beyond just yeah, like what you're about it. There's a personal connection there. I'd say. That's one. Two is what I was saying about the outcomes based assessment model, meaning, all right, I'm gonna give you money. What are you going to do with it? Are you going to do something of value with it? Or are you just going to spend this and give out some tchotchkes, you know, and sing Kumbaya and it's all going to be great. Like, can you show me a logical linkage between the dollars that I'm giving, and the good outcomes that you're able to perpetuate. And that is absolutely critical as well. And then I'll say, lastly is just being transparent, you know, them knowing that you are who you say you are, you're running a transparent organization, you're not living high on the hog. Spending money willy nilly, you know, and that, all right, I feel like my investment, my money is going to a good cause, and is really, truly making a difference. And then I'll say the last last thing. I mean, I think some of the other stories are where, maybe philosophically, organizations don't align at first you thought, hey, I thought this organization was, you know, being transparent this and that, and they come to find either there's some shenanigans, or they these guys or gals are not all they're cracked up to be. And now we're taking a black guy, because we put our reputation on the line by donating to them and they weren't really quite on the up and up, those are all saved to donor pain. Things certainly not comprehensive, but the major ones that I think we've come to find.

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Mike Montague 21:05 Yeah, really interesting. I'll give you one last swing at it here. Anything else you were hoping to talk about and mention or anything else that we need to know about warriors isn't? Mike Kenny 21:19 Well, gee, snow, we've said so much. Now, I'll just say I'm very grateful to Sandler, you know, again, to your dad, Rick Burgess, you know, for the, you know, the scholarship program, which has helped us out immensely, I would say, organizationally, you know, one of the reasons we came to Sandler, is you have to run a nonprofit, like a business. And I think some people know that, but I think others think that the nonprofit mission is above that, and they can't be tainted, by, you know, by like a like a profit, a profit motive. No, I get that. But if you're not using the same best practices to run a good business, you're not going to have a successful nonprofit. So the sales process needs to be tight, as is your marketing as your you know, value delivery, et cetera, et cetera. So you know, I don't mean to, you know, I don't try to talk like, I'm a super business guy, but you know, military guy, but hey, having to learn, I'll say, the business lexicon, the processes, it's absolutely instrumental. So you know, I'll say in partying, running your nonprofit, like an efficient business is the surest way to success. And if you feel that that is, you know, in opposition to, you know, the spirit and philosophy of your organization, I'd say kind of reevaluate that. Yeah,

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Mike Montague 22:42 I think the the question is, how do you choose what works out of that business model that companies do things for a reason, like some of their management hierarchies and how they operate and how they get their best out of their people, you you would want to do the same and they're fiscally conservative trying to, you know, leverage as many resources as possible. How can you learn those lessons, that's a great ending thought here. But before we go, I want to learn more about you and your organization. As my dad's first nonprofit scholarship, I think I was the first scholarship recipient. When I was 14 years old, 30 years ago, to talk to you the the latest one is a fun deal for me. So Mike, tell me at this point in your career, and with what you've done with the military and warriors ascent, that org How do you define success at this point in your life? Mike Kenny 23:38 I'd say number one, the ability to actually help people, you know, it's that whole service attitude. So, you know, I'm a big fan of, you know, self improvement, I'm sure you're familiar with Brendon Burchard, high performance habits. I like that guy. He's a good dude. You know, and he talks about, you know, service over selfies. And I think so many people are like, well, you know, you got to be famous, you got to be this, you got to be rich. And it's just like, that, if you're making a difference in people's lives, and you're really running a good organization, that success will come and however you manage that, or, you know, however you quantify that, whether that's, you know, hundreds 1000s millions of dollars, you know, hey, so be it, you know, that that's one people to hear about it. Yeah, exactly. And if you're able to help, you know, when I hear, and again, I mean, I'm not looking for self aggrandizement, and the pat on the back, but but when you hear people like at our graduation ceremony, or afterwards say, hey, this program saved me, you know, I'm like, hey, there it is. The other thing is, hey, I've run high performing organizations, you know, my entire military career have been a part of high-performing organizations. And you know, for my part, it worries a cent. If I've got an organization that's making a difference that's well run that people have confidence and I say that does my heart good as well. I get it. I get a big sense of satisfaction. You know, so much so that, like I said, your dad and his crews saw fit to support us believed in us. And you know, I want to, you know, I want to live up to that, you know, I want to be, you know, they're one of their greatest success stories, you know, so I greatly appreciate that as well.

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Mike Montague 25:10 Awesome. Now, the flip side of this, I feel like you're gonna have an interesting answer. So I'm gonna give you kind of three choices here. What's your relationship with failure was their biggest failure that you're most proud of? Was I can imagine all the hurdles you had to overcome and special forces, or your own, you know, battles with with PTSD or trauma and things, or any other you know, comments or thoughts you have about the failure side of things. Mike Kenny 25:40 I'm a big believer in what is it melt, all attributed to Nelson Mandela, I'm pretty sure it's like, I never lose, either win or learn. Right? So I'll share a quick anecdote. So I used to BarkBox for West Point. So West points got, you know, their brigade open boxing championship, and I went on to find the regionals and nationals and stuff like that. But when I was a sophomore, I fought a senior and I was doing really well. I was like, Alright, hey, and in the finals in front of the entire Corps Cadets, Man, this guy hurt me. Getting eight counts, and I wasn't cocky, but I was pretty self assured. And this in this guy, he was big, strong, good cut lot of weight. And then he hurt me pretty good. And, you know, so of course, I lost, you know, didn't get knocked out, but to standing eight. So I remember going back to class, and one of my female Cadet classmates was trying to pump me up. And she's like, Oh, you looked good out there. And I looked at her and I'm like, Were you watching the same match that I was playing, then? You don't know. But I remember at that point, it was just like, man, I've got two choices. I can either say the heck with this. I don't want to get embarrassed like that again. Or I can say, well, I need to reevaluate what I did wrong, and why this guy was able to beat me. And and I either retool and recalibrate, and come back better and stronger, or I quit. So, man, I retooled recalibrated practice than I wanted the next two times and went on to win the regionals come in second in the nation, and the NCBA is so

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Mike Montague 27:12 amazing, so good about Mike Kenny 27:13 that. So yeah, and then I'll just say that mindset is followed me all throughout my military career.

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Mike Montague 27:19 I find that really interesting, too. It's backwards law of life here that you don't gain confidence by winning, you gain confidence by failing and then overcoming those failures, right? Mike Kenny 27:33 Oh, man, I'll tell you, I like that. I really do. Not that anyone wants to fail. I hate to fail, but it's just the price of doing business. But you're absolutely right. There are people for whom life is relatively easy. And I don't mean that they've been coddled, but they're very talented. But then what happens is when they're faced with adversity, some people can't take, you know, some people, they have a setback, or a failure and it crushes them. And I think that that's very disempowering. I really, truly believe that. People should have their share of, you know, failures. You know, the whole Teddy Roosevelt Man in the Arena, you know, it's a character builder, because, as you know, I'm a big fan of what Ryan Holliday the obstacle is the way and, you know, you really learn and grow by overcoming those obstacles. If your life is a cloudless sky, and you've not faced adversity, you're, you know, you really can't say that you're that strong, because you've never faced it.

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Mike Montague 28:32 Yeah, the last thing I would add to is, don't be afraid to ask for help in those situations. That's what warrior ascent.org is for, if you're struggling with with those issues. That's what Sandler is for if you're struggling in your business, or you've hit some sort of plateau and you need a coach sometimes or help to get through those times. There's no shame in that. That's part of what we're all doing, to learn and grow and help each other and get past those things. So I'm sure you have a thought there. We'll make this your last one. What would you say about people need to reach out for help? At warriors a center org? Mike Kenny 29:09 No, absolutely. And that's a great point. Yeah, no, no man or woman is an island, you know, and I think a lot of veterans and first responders in particular, they're like, Hey, I'm tough. I can I can hang. I'll share this with you. A lot of the, you know, that article I mentioned, speaks about the multimodal group therapeutic approach. And it's that group, therapeutic approach, very important. Some of the major I'll say, epiphanies are when you see a group of guys or gals, they're all sharing their stories, and they're being open and vulnerable and saying, Hey, I'm hurting or this hurt me or I'm really grappling with this and then you get someone across the room going, you too. I'm not the only one. And they've got that shared, like, No, you're not the only one. There are a lot of people that feel like you and we can all help one another. So that's one The other is the notion that beyond just knowing that they're not alone, it's the notion that oh, I'm not the weak one. I'm not less than Oh, you know, because a lot of people in their minds are thinking, if I'm feeling this way, it's because I'm not as good as I thought I was. Or I'm not as tough as I thought I was. And this is really just proof positive. It's that whole, you know, Carol Dweck, fixed versus growth mindset, which I'm sure you're aware of that the fixed mindset is the one where, hey, if, if I have a setback, you know, or I fail, it's because, you know, hey, I'm just, I'm not made for it, versus the growth mindset, which is no, this is all part of growth, I'm gonna learn, I'm gonna get better. But it's, it's the same thing. It's like this notion that, hey, if you're feeling it, you need help. You are not the only one. And there are other people that can help. There are other people that have been where you are right now, and have been through what you're going through and can help you along, you know, and get the hand up, not the handout.