0:00

Time for a quick break to talk about

0:02

McDonald's. Mornings are for mixing and matching at

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McDonald's. For just $3, mix and match two

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of your favorite breakfast items, including a

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sausage McMuffin. Hello

0:36

Welcome to How to Win Twenty Twenty

0:38

Four It's Thursday, April twenty third. I'm

0:40

Jennifer Palmieri and I'm here at my

0:42

cohost Claire Mccaskill with Olive oil froggy

0:44

this morning. hi Claire he doing Now

0:46

I will be able to cheer all

0:49

the amazing receivers Were gonna draft night

0:51

in the online the Raf from my

0:53

man Patrick Mobs but maybe even as

0:55

big as the Nfl draft. We had

0:57

the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame

0:59

inductees this week and my heart beats

1:01

faster Is nothing better than share. If.

1:04

You've never seen either. An answer?

1:06

I. Mean, share his frickin' amazing. And she's like,

1:08

I think she's older than I am. I

1:10

mean, that's all she's that. She's definitely older

1:13

than yeah. And yeah, she's way older than

1:15

you. I'm psyched about that. offers. I'm sorry

1:17

for the drug. As you know, I'm the

1:19

Morning Joe Nfl draft analysts and unfortunately I

1:21

cannot be in Detroit tonight because I had

1:23

to pick between my legs. And.

1:25

I love Bruce Springsteen more than I love

1:27

the Nfl. Who. Threw in addition to

1:30

the Rock Roll Hall of Fame been an ounce.

1:32

I went to the Bruce Springsteen Archive Center for

1:34

American Music. American. Music Honors

1:36

Cool, You know? like it was incredible?

1:38

M N like it's kind of a

1:41

small deal Minutes: At Monmouth University there's

1:43

like maybe four hundred people in the

1:45

auditorium. John Mellencamp. To this amazing acoustic version

1:47

of Jack and Diane and just like stopped in

1:50

the middle of it and let us all saying

1:52

sound lot of music We gotta stop on music

1:54

and get to the Bread Mccullers or cause there's

1:56

a lot. There's a lot and there's a lot

1:58

which is why you can. So

2:00

between the contrasts, consider stark relief

2:02

we're biden. Is out. My husband's in Florida.

2:05

last week it was Pennsylvania. The sick of Florida,

2:07

Virginia and from from Manhattan court rooms Mclaren. I

2:09

want to drill down on that contrasts and how

2:11

to use it effectively in a campaign that we're

2:13

gonna catch up with a law professor. Missile good

2:15

one sees the author of Policing the

2:17

Womb, and she's really a foremost expert

2:19

on how to interpret the law when

2:21

it comes to women's reproductive rights. Will

2:23

look at the state by state bans

2:25

and what's at stake for Twenty Twenty

2:27

Four as well as what the Supreme

2:29

court is pondering right now and to

2:32

very important abortion related. Cases and Arizona

2:34

Tex Mex on abortion. The Secure.

2:36

Talk about. Bad stars that

2:38

strategy session. So right now,

2:40

Scotus as here. In the community

2:42

appeal arguments, this is your deal claire

2:44

former prosecutor would you make it arguments

2:46

as far less Cheney had not been

2:49

the Mit this week. Same that they

2:51

need to decide the swiftly get a

2:53

Jan Six trial done before the election.

2:55

etc. Well interesting thing about this.

2:57

Is for small sort of my are

3:00

immediately when after the biggest weakness. In

3:02

the case and that is if a president. Orders

3:04

the military to. Assassinate his

3:06

political opponents, Clearly that's

3:08

an official act. Disease ordering the military

3:11

as prisoners in the United States or

3:13

she is. As will apply to all

3:15

presidents and we will have demonstrated Etti

3:17

yes we will associate medial He went

3:19

without weakness. But really the importance of

3:22

this case and there is now lot

3:24

of pressure around this issue because I

3:26

think Liz Cheney has emphasized that most

3:28

as illegal minds that the Supreme Court

3:31

reads about. It every publication of said

3:33

this is all about timing. So what

3:35

I'm looking for is not whether or

3:37

not the Supreme Court is gonna say

3:39

the President can murder his opponents who

3:41

the military. I don't think they will decide death.

3:43

What? I'm worried about isn't They will send the

3:45

case back to. The trial court to

3:48

determine what is any of the

3:50

acts that the President is accused

3:52

of was in fact part of

3:54

his official duties In what was

3:56

not because that's of satchel determination.

3:58

If they do that, the ban

4:00

Trump has a chance to avoid

4:03

responsibility and legal accountability for what

4:05

he did. Around his failure

4:07

to allow power. To transfer peacefully

4:09

in this country because if he wins now,

4:11

he doesn't win. You know he is. He

4:13

still in jeopardy in terms of these

4:15

federal cases. But if. He wins. They

4:17

all go away so. It's the time

4:20

in here that's important and I thought

4:22

Liz Cheney did a great job of

4:24

highlighting that and what he'd what she

4:26

did this week. And so it's Thursday

4:28

were four days and to the actual

4:30

Hush Money trial. So it does feel

4:32

to me a little more unhinged then

4:34

I might have anticipated or that it's

4:36

of wearing on Trump more. What are

4:38

your big take away from the week

4:41

and as it does it feel that

4:43

way to you like this is really

4:45

having an impact on him psychologically. He.

4:47

Doesn't look good, you know I mean

4:49

by the head of Embarrassing Gas this

4:51

week. But Trump looks bad every day

4:53

and were seen him every day. He

4:55

looks haggard, he looks tired, he looks

4:58

angry, but keep in mind that he

5:00

is just trying to play the victim.

5:02

I've never before seen a criminal defendant

5:04

is you know many people view as

5:06

a victim Typically. It's the victim of

5:08

the crime. School is seen

5:11

as the this is not that

5:13

ascendant to commit a crime. But

5:15

they've done a really good job. I

5:17

thought the opening statements were very good

5:19

on that part of the prosecution. they've

5:22

promised a lot now. they've gotta deliver

5:24

on that evidence. By my biggest take

5:26

way was that the lawyers for Trump

5:28

have already damaged their credibility by saying

5:31

he was a family man in their

5:33

opening statement, laugh out loud Funny, I

5:35

mean every person on that jury is

5:37

Go and was no, no he's not

5:39

a family man. Each changes wise. these

5:42

as serial adulterer he is not said

5:44

that he. Is ever emphasize his family,

5:46

his wife not even their me a

5:48

who the I believe my minute left

5:50

like she doesn't believe them disease or

5:52

even they are in court with him

5:54

So i just think. So far I

5:56

think that trials going very well for the

5:58

prosecution will see. His time, though gone, is

6:00

quite a contrast. So did you notice that Trump

6:02

complains about having to be. In court. Now

6:05

he should be campaigning, but then he

6:07

cancelled because of rally last weekend. A

6:09

guess why Chancellor John. This is

6:11

Mrs. Claire's favorite story of a week. Because

6:13

he was worried about his hair was raided

6:16

him he can't. Go Out in this

6:18

starts to brew font Atheists rating events

6:20

with the or if it's raining a

6:22

he is off the sealed I am

6:25

sorry. He is on the injured reserve. List

6:27

if there's any problem with his air yeah,

6:29

there you have the receipt to back it

6:31

up Then saying that yep, you've are lego

6:33

the deal child as A matters his supporters.

6:35

but there's evidence that A does this a

6:37

Quinnipiac poll this week. Nearly seven out of

6:40

ten voters. Say they are following the news

6:42

regarding the trial either very closely are

6:44

somewhat closely, or sixty nine percent of

6:46

them and in the same poll, six

6:48

in ten voters think the the charges

6:50

a fourth time. This since records including

6:52

the hush money payment when adult film,

6:54

actress or either very serious are somewhat

6:56

serious, and forty six percent of voters

6:58

believe former President Trump did something illegal.

7:00

Or in all three of those stats,

7:02

you are talking about some measure of

7:04

Trump's supporters paying attention thinking that the

7:06

charges a serious and even some of

7:08

them thinking that he did. Something illegal.

7:11

So. I just don't believe that it

7:13

doesn't have an impact on public spending

7:15

and on the race. and plus all

7:17

David Pecker stuff was bonkers to and

7:19

just understanding how that works and how

7:21

the whole cats until scheme worse with

7:23

the National Enquirer and how corrupt it

7:25

is I think that was pretty eye.

7:27

Opening to listen to you know

7:30

there is a big contrast in.

7:32

Think about this for a minute was

7:34

just like put everything aside, it's so

7:37

much news about Trump's so much scandal

7:39

when I was a younger politician and

7:41

running for office. If somebody what is

7:44

said to me you know the candidate

7:46

for president of one of the major

7:48

parties was named in Arizona criminal charge

7:51

last night as an unindicted coconspirators I

7:53

would say well it's over. You.

7:55

Can be named as an unindicted

7:58

coconspirators. You're running for president and like. The

8:00

to fight nobody is nobody's even bulky.

8:02

Well yeah is another unindicted tokens beer.

8:04

This is like the second or third

8:06

time he is an unindicted co spirit

8:08

or unease in court. For a crime

8:11

I mean it is amazing to

8:13

me how. Solid, the

8:15

cold is de mars and

8:17

all. In the ten and

8:19

they can see daylight they are

8:21

so submerged in his be as

8:24

it is unbelievable. But the other

8:26

thing that happened this week. Is

8:28

and B C news poll that has

8:30

by school of five points from January

8:32

I wanted a lot of forty two

8:34

percent that some low relative to other

8:36

presidents and general but given other like

8:39

how popular in of other world leaders

8:41

right now that's pretty high. So is

8:43

that a thread and his mom, he

8:45

and his success and B C like

8:47

realclearpolitics average have some it that way

8:49

to going up from that from January

8:51

and February is instead union is it

8:54

the contrast of by down the trail

8:56

doing his job in president. While Trump

8:58

said in a court room leg maybe look at

9:00

all I'm saying but able to he gets. Yell

9:02

and obviously Biden was in Florida really

9:05

hammering on the issue that we think

9:07

is and we've gotta be honest, man

9:09

is to and there's a real enthusiasm

9:11

problem with younger voters. Younger voters are

9:13

not excited about voting. I'm not saying

9:16

they're not with Biden, I think they

9:18

are. I think they will vote for

9:20

Biden if they go. By the

9:22

one thing we have that is really

9:24

important is this abortion issue and he

9:26

did a great job in Florida this

9:29

week saying hey, I'm fighting here. I'm

9:31

side yeah for the women at this stage and the men

9:33

who. Support them that you should have

9:35

control over the most personal and private

9:37

and painful decision of your life. And

9:40

when By was in Florida this week, he had this

9:42

to say. About Trump. For. Fifty

9:44

years. The. Court ruled that

9:46

was a fundamental constitutional right

9:48

to privacy. or two years

9:51

ago I was taken away

9:53

was a real claire one

9:55

person responsible as nightmare. And.

9:57

is acknowledged and he brags about donald

9:59

trump I

10:02

think, you know, if I were in the room, I would, you know,

10:04

this is what you would have him doing. You know, there's also some

10:06

like a psychological warfare to some of this stuff too that I think

10:08

is smart. It's like, I'm going to go to

10:11

Pennsylvania last week. I'm going to stay there for

10:13

three days. I'm going to have it really take

10:15

effect. I'm going to go to Florida, your home.

10:17

You can't be there because you're in a courtroom

10:19

in New York and I'm going to talk about

10:21

the issue that is you are most vulnerable on

10:23

and that's abortion. And you know,

10:26

it feels like it's having an impact. The

10:28

bottom line is I think if I were in the room,

10:30

I think they're doing the right thing. Yeah. Okay.

10:33

Speaking of another major abortion argument before the high court

10:35

this week was about whether the

10:38

Biden administration can penalize hospitals that

10:40

failed to provide emergency. I'm talking

10:42

about emergency abortion care. I'm not talking

10:44

about, hey, I want to have an abortion

10:46

because I don't want to have a child. I'm

10:48

talking about somebody whose health is in danger that

10:51

it qualifies as a medical emergency. And

10:53

a perfect segue to our next guest.

10:55

When we come back, Michelle Goodwin joins

10:57

us. She's a constitutional law and global

11:00

health policy professor at Georgetown Law. I'm

11:02

the author of the book, Policing the

11:04

Womb, Invisible Women and the Criminalization of

11:06

Motherhood. My God. My God is not

11:08

part of the most vital. I'll back Michelle

11:11

Goodwin in a moment. Time

11:19

for a quick break to talk about McDonald's.

11:21

Mornings are for mixing and matching at McDonald's.

11:23

For just $3, mix and match two of

11:25

your favorite breakfast items, including a sausage

11:28

McMuffin. Single

11:41

item at regular price. Welcome

11:49

back. I will continue to apologize

11:51

for my voice. I promise it will be better next week.

11:53

As we mentioned before the break, the Supreme

11:56

Court heard arguments this week over a case

11:58

that sets a very strict Idaho

12:00

abortion ban against a federal law

12:02

that requires that hospitals in order

12:04

to receive federal money, they must

12:06

provide emergency care. This is the

12:08

second abortion related case. The justices

12:10

have heard this term after the

12:13

March case, where they listened to

12:15

arguments around the FDA's approval of

12:17

the abortion bill, Mephistone. It's interesting

12:20

because the Supreme Court, Jen said

12:22

they wanted the states to decide. And now we've

12:24

been in front of the Supreme

12:26

Court twice since Dobbs, with the Supreme Court

12:29

being forced to make even more decisions around

12:31

women's freedom. And after Roe was reversed by

12:33

the Supreme Court in 2022, there has been

12:35

this nonstop, consistent

12:38

effort to chip away every productive rights from

12:40

every corner. So we wanted to talk to

12:42

someone who can break down how the law

12:45

is being used to tamp down women's basic

12:47

health choices and how pivotal the issue will

12:49

be in November. Professor Michelle Goodwin is the

12:51

perfect person to help us with that. She

12:53

is a constitutional law and global health policy

12:56

professor at Georgetown Law School,

12:58

an acclaimed bioethicist, and is the

13:00

author of the award-winning book, Policing

13:03

the Womb, Invisible Women, and the

13:05

Criminalization of Motherhood. Professor Goodwin, thank you

13:07

so much for joining us. It's my

13:09

pleasure to be with you. Before

13:12

we get to the Supreme Court, we want to look

13:14

at where the states are. So we have

13:16

a map, talked to us about where it, and

13:18

we will have a link to this map in

13:20

the show notes, about what it currently looks like

13:22

to live in any of the states in the

13:24

South if you need reproductive care. So if

13:27

we were to do a Venn

13:29

diagram, we would see ourselves trapped

13:31

in the period of American slavery.

13:33

We'd see ourselves tethered to a

13:35

system where there were women

13:37

who were forced into pregnancies

13:40

because it provided for the

13:42

wealth of the people that

13:44

kept them enslaved. And we would

13:46

see that there were federal laws that

13:48

protected those individuals who forced

13:50

those women into pregnancy because

13:52

if those women tried to

13:54

escape, they could be returned.

13:56

And if we look at the narratives between

13:58

then and now, see a new Jane

14:01

Crow where there is so much that looks

14:03

like the old that is now trapped in the

14:05

new. And I should say for anybody

14:07

who might say, well, no, that's not exactly the

14:09

same. That's not what was happening. Thomas

14:11

Jefferson famously wrote that he preferred

14:13

to have women on his plantation

14:15

because they turned to profit every

14:17

year or two rather than men.

14:19

He wasn't talking about women are

14:22

better cotton pickers, women are better

14:24

tobacco pickers. Instead, what he was

14:26

explicitly saying is that he could

14:28

use exploit, coerce their

14:30

reproductive capacities to make profit

14:33

for him to exploit his

14:35

own interest. And we see much of

14:37

the same taking shape these days. Since

14:40

Dobbs, we have seen a 10-year-old girl having

14:42

to flee one state to get to another

14:44

in order to terminate a pregnancy after

14:46

rape. We've seen children now

14:49

going into elementary and middle schools

14:51

as mothers. We've seen

14:53

judges say that 17-year-old girls lack the

14:55

capacity to have an abortion that somehow

14:58

they have the maturity to become a

15:00

mother when they can't take Mipha Pristone to

15:02

terminate a pregnancy. It is

15:04

just a travesty and a lack

15:07

not only of justice but fundamental

15:09

human rights. It's brutal. Dr.

15:12

Goodwin, would you do our listeners a

15:14

favor and would you compare and

15:16

contrast as only a law professor

15:19

can? The difference between abortion bans,

15:21

which are very common across the

15:23

country, and personhood statutes, which is

15:25

certainly the law in my state

15:28

and I know in many other

15:30

states, how do those two

15:32

compare and why is personhood

15:34

even more dangerous than an

15:36

abortion ban? That's a great

15:38

question. So these abortion bans

15:41

came into effect after the 2022 Dobbs decision. There

15:45

were states that were already teasing these

15:47

up and many had gestational limitations. What

15:49

states were trying to do when Roe

15:51

was still the law of the land

15:54

was to create what would be trigger laws

15:56

such that when Roe would fall and they

15:58

were hoping that it would be it would

16:00

that those laws would then go into

16:02

effect. Most of those

16:04

laws had not gone into effect

16:06

because district court and appellate court

16:09

judges said, well Rowan, Planned Parenthood,

16:11

B. Casey is still a law

16:13

of the land. These laws that

16:15

you just created are struck down.

16:18

But the question that you ask

16:20

about these personhood measures is really

16:22

important because they're what you have

16:24

are anti-abortion movement leaders seeking to

16:26

establish constitutional rights, legal rights, and

16:29

fetuses and embryos even. So we

16:31

had recently the Alabama Supreme Court

16:33

ruling that an embryo rather

16:36

cryo-preserved in refrigeration or

16:38

in a uterus has

16:40

personhood and that

16:43

any destruction of an

16:45

embryo could be a wrongful death.

16:47

So if you are trying to become

16:50

pregnant and you're using assisted reproductive technologies,

16:53

65% of the time there's going to be embryo

16:56

demise and even fetal demise

16:58

and that could mean criminal

17:00

and civil punishment perhaps against

17:03

the couples who are actually trying to

17:05

become pregnant. The bottom line of it is

17:07

that you have a kind of barbarism

17:09

and lunacy now parading as

17:11

American law and science which

17:13

it is not. You see

17:15

a complete devoid of an

17:17

understanding of health and science

17:19

and basic biology. It'd make

17:21

you wonder if any of

17:23

these people studied biology, basic

17:25

biology in middle school and high

17:27

school. But they have an ultimate goal

17:29

here, right? This effort started a long

17:31

time ago. What's that ultimate goal

17:33

of what they are pursuing now and who are some

17:36

of these people that are doing it? So

17:38

the ultimate goal is truly

17:41

one of power. It's

17:43

something that I've studied. It's a question that

17:45

I've asked over and over again in my

17:47

own scholarship as I've written about this. So

17:51

let's distinguish a few things because there is

17:53

a rhetoric that this has always been part

17:55

of a Republican campaign and that is not

17:57

true. It is true that Republicans right now

17:59

have... leaned into this but Roe

18:01

v. Wade was a 7-2 decision.

18:04

Five of those seven justices were

18:06

Republican-appointed including Justice Blackmon who wrote

18:08

the opinion in Roe

18:10

v. Wade. He was put on

18:13

the court by Richard Nixon. Consistently,

18:15

there had been Republicans including George

18:17

H. W. Bush who

18:19

spearheaded Title X through Congress making

18:22

sure that reproductive healthcare could be

18:24

provided for the poorest of Americans.

18:26

He said that this was basic

18:29

fundamental public healthcare. His father

18:31

Prescott Bush was the treasurer of

18:33

Planned Parenthood. And I think that

18:35

that's important to just establish as

18:37

a baseline which tells us how

18:39

extreme it is, what's taking shape

18:41

today, and the way in which

18:44

there are politicians that have been

18:46

co-opted into this fundamentalist,

18:49

extremely hardcore, hardcore,

18:52

hardcore conservative movement that

18:54

never been able to elevate itself

18:56

in law or in the court.

18:59

One of the things we don't

19:01

talk about is how violent this movement

19:03

has been. And then if it were any

19:05

other group, they would be on national watch

19:07

lists, they would not be able to operate in

19:09

the United States, they would be gone. There have

19:11

been over 50 bombings of

19:14

clinics that provide abortions in

19:16

the United States since the time of Roe

19:19

v. Wade. Roe v. Wade

19:21

decriminalized abortion, it made it legal

19:23

just as Blackmon said that it

19:25

was important for the autonomy, the

19:28

dignity, the mental health, the physical

19:30

health of women that

19:32

they have this healthcare option for

19:34

themselves. And since that time, bombings,

19:37

arson, there are doctors who

19:39

have been murdered in their churches, murdered

19:42

at their homes. I

19:44

have friends who are obstetricians and

19:47

gynecologists who fear being

19:49

on shows like this or being

19:51

recorded on video because they have

19:54

children and they fear reasonably so

19:57

that someone could come to their home and kill

19:59

their children. children. And so before going

20:01

on, I just thought it was important

20:03

to actually place to the readers that

20:05

this has not been just a matter

20:07

of political difference. This has

20:09

been a movement that has been steeped

20:12

in violence, the threats of violence. I

20:14

know so many people who even do

20:16

the work that I do, we receive

20:18

threats all the time. So. But

20:20

you said it's about power. If I get to say that

20:22

first, I want to ask you about power. Do you think

20:25

that I mean, I think about this a lot. We're getting

20:27

beyond politics now, but I think it's important to get

20:29

to the root of this. Like, is it that women

20:31

have had too much power and this is the backlash

20:33

against it? It's about trying to control women. Is

20:35

that what is happening here? That's a part

20:37

of it. So that's such a great question.

20:39

So let's dive into what power has looked

20:42

like in the United States, because it

20:44

can be obscured by the fact that women

20:47

have been able to successfully run for Congress

20:49

and be in the Senate and be in

20:51

the House, that there are women who are

20:53

CEOs. There are women

20:56

who are taking charge of their lives

20:58

like never before. And even around the

21:01

world, not yet in the United States

21:03

being president, but women in other countries

21:05

being president. So that can obscure the

21:07

fact that women are still on the

21:09

pathway towards full citizenship in the United

21:11

States. Now that would seem strange to

21:13

people. And you see, of course, women

21:16

have citizenship. Let's be clear that Roe

21:18

v. Wade came 100 years

21:20

after the Supreme Court said that women

21:22

could not become lawyers. There is a

21:25

case, Bradwell v. Illinois, where a woman

21:27

said, okay, slavery's over. There's a 14th

21:29

Amendment. I want to become a lawyer.

21:31

My husband is a lawyer. I'm qualified.

21:34

And the Supreme Court said, no, what

21:37

you women can do is take care

21:39

of your husbands and your children. You

21:41

may not become lawyers. In the same period,

21:43

the Supreme Court said, no women, you may

21:46

not vote. Now, even though folks would

21:48

say, well, that was a long time

21:50

ago, things are truly different now. Let's

21:53

be clear that when Mississippi brought this case

21:55

before the United States Supreme Court,

21:57

the Dodge decision, the lower court, Judge

21:59

Carl Henry's made clear. What

22:01

Mississippi's history has been Mississippi as

22:04

denied women from serving on juries

22:06

in Mississippi women couldn't. Get credit

22:08

cards and their own name. Couldn't open up checking

22:10

accounts in their own names and we thought through

22:12

a laundry list of things. Including voter

22:14

suppression, The Supreme Court said wealth women

22:17

don't like this, just go vote. Let's

22:19

remember that when black women try to

22:21

go vote in Mississippi last November. It's

22:24

a state where ballots. Were.

22:27

Not available to black communities and

22:29

they ran out and there were

22:31

many black women not able. To.

22:33

Participate in the election process.

22:36

Much. Like over a hundred years ago.

22:38

I mean, this is happening in real

22:40

time, so part of it yes is

22:42

a concern about women and women seizing

22:44

power and being able to be more

22:46

authoritative in their lives. But it's also.

22:49

About. Holding onto a power

22:51

that intergenerational in the United States.

22:54

Has. Been given to men in that men

22:56

have taken for themselves and it is only

22:58

been in the case where women have fought

23:00

hard. That and firing. Orders given some

23:02

very hard. And even criminally punished

23:05

for it where women have been

23:07

able to scrape and scrape. And.

23:09

Get pieces of power and the United

23:11

States. Professor Missile

23:13

did when please stay with us for tickets cause

23:15

here but when we're passing want to talk about

23:18

the Supreme Court's role in invalidating Women of Care

23:20

rights will be right. Time

23:29

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23:59

back We've been speaking with Michelle

24:01

Goodwin. She's a Constitutional Law and

24:03

Global Health Policy Professor at Georgetown

24:05

Law School and the author of

24:07

the award-winning book, Policing the Womb,

24:09

Invisible Women and the Criminalization of

24:11

Motherhood. Let's zoom out now and let's

24:13

look a little bit at what the Supreme Court

24:15

is up to. So let's talk first

24:18

about the emergency abortion care case that

24:20

the justices heard arguments about this week.

24:22

What's your take on the case and

24:24

what is your sense after

24:27

listening to the arguments about where the

24:29

court will come down on this

24:31

important battle between states

24:33

rights and federal authority

24:35

to withhold funds? It's

24:37

troubling that the Supreme Court

24:40

has weighed into this decision

24:42

in the way in which it has. The

24:44

Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor

24:46

Act was one that

24:49

was passed by Congress in order

24:51

to protect Americans who are in emergency crisis,

24:53

such that they would be able to get

24:55

the care that they need and not be

24:57

turned away. It's worth noting

25:00

that explicit within the title of

25:02

the act is the recognition of

25:04

women and reproductive health care because

25:07

it says and Labor Act. And

25:09

for a Supreme Court that

25:11

is claimed to pay close attention

25:13

to texts, we have in both

25:15

the text and the legislative history

25:18

the fact that members of Congress were

25:20

deeply concerned about patient dumping.

25:22

And that is women not getting the

25:25

life-saving, life-stabilizing care that they

25:27

needed if they presented at

25:29

hospitals and didn't have insurance

25:31

or even if they did and hospitals wanted to

25:34

turn them away. In the wake

25:36

of the Dodge decision, the president,

25:38

President Joe Biden, said well,

25:40

Intala still applies. This important

25:42

federal law still applies. And

25:44

so people who need abortion

25:47

care in order to stabilize

25:49

their health, in order to save their

25:51

health, save their lives, still have access

25:54

to abortion given this federal law.

25:56

Now, it's just a basic 101 in civil.

26:00

X. Federal. Law pre amp

26:02

state law. That means federal. Law

26:04

trumps any state laws and we could

26:06

talk about this show. Another show Why?

26:08

that is. But. Now, the state

26:11

of Idaho challenged whether that had

26:13

any relevance in it Stayed given

26:15

it's abortion ban. Their claim was

26:17

that Federal law couldn't intervene on

26:20

their abortion ban. The Supreme court

26:22

has decided to take this up.

26:25

And perhaps not shockingly to some

26:27

conservatives on the court seem to

26:29

be leaning into this idea that

26:31

even. Though there is federalism and

26:33

federal preemption. That it may not

26:35

apply. As applies to women

26:38

who may die in needing.

26:40

Abortion Care Services will again. This

26:42

exposes whether there is a care

26:45

for the fundamental personhood of women.

26:48

You. Know I gotta just sort of peace

26:50

in here because we don't have law professors

26:52

on very often in. Even though I

26:54

have a little Ptsd when it comes. To Law

26:56

Professors Assist Assist Sticky! Back to

26:58

my law school experience If he

27:00

gets really important to talk about

27:03

how hypocritical. The. Members of the

27:05

court have been around sexual as. You

27:07

know, as somebody who had to vote on the

27:09

confirmation of supreme. Court Justices I

27:12

watched righteous indignation spew.

27:14

From these folks about how you

27:16

cannot legislate from the beds. About

27:18

how we have to respect as

27:21

a language of the constitution and

27:23

the language The. Actual text

27:25

of law. And. That

27:27

courts have run amok. Because.

27:29

They're busy interbreeding and

27:31

legislating. And. How much respect they

27:33

had for President. Will. All of

27:35

those things have gone up in flames under

27:37

the. Roberts Court. Can. You

27:40

speak a moment about how hypocritical

27:42

these folks are. About the

27:44

original language. Uma touched on it with this

27:46

law, but it's happened over and over again

27:49

with these guys. That's. True

27:51

and it is deeply frustrating

27:53

and what it is. consistent.

27:55

With. As Americans having a very low

27:57

view of the core, they have the

27:59

lowest. Labour Ability Rating The Supreme

28:01

Court sense polling has ever taken

28:04

place. And. I think this cynicism

28:06

that we can all see in the court.

28:08

You can see it in just looking at

28:11

dogs will. let's put dogs. And brewing together.

28:13

So the day before the dogs decision the

28:15

supreme court issued a ruling in the brew

28:17

in case. The. Bruins cases one about

28:19

a New York gun control law that

28:22

was more than a century old controlling

28:24

guns in that state for public health

28:26

and safety. Here's a court that's as

28:28

a cares about originalism well and cares about things

28:30

that are old. would say over a century that's

28:33

pretty old but in the Bruins decision courts a

28:35

while we don't really care about old anymore. And

28:38

here's what's interesting to have Justice Clarence

28:40

Thomas in the Bruins decision saying we

28:42

need a prologue. Here is very rare that

28:44

you seen a supreme court decision prologue and he

28:46

spends. Five paragraphs talking about. How

28:49

important a Black male bodily autonomy?

28:51

it has to have a gun

28:53

And that black males bodily autonomy

28:55

is placed in jeopardy if they

28:58

don't have guns and that we

29:00

should all and supreme court's care

29:02

about black male bodily. Autonomy. He

29:04

writes a majority opinion in striking down

29:06

this New York Gun Control Laws. The.

29:08

Next day is the dogs decision

29:11

where the Supreme court doesn't say

29:13

anything about bodily autonomy whatsoever. Justice

29:15

Thomas. In. Clues a concurring

29:18

opinion were bodily autonomy. So's

29:20

two words you will never

29:22

see. The. Other thing that you

29:24

won't see his at the day before.

29:26

Justice Thomas cares about black men. One.

29:28

Day later he has nothing to say. About

29:31

black women in a case that comes

29:33

out of Mississippi. A case that was

29:35

notorious for the lynching a black women.

29:37

Were. The enslavement of black women. For.

29:39

Denying black women the right to vote,

29:42

Denying black women access to schools and education

29:44

Than Nine Black women The right to be

29:46

able to contract. Denying black women the right

29:48

to be able to go into parks and

29:51

swimming pools. You can't make it up and

29:53

so no reference. At all to

29:55

their lives. and even more. On.

29:57

Your question President goes out the

29:59

way though in rest of time

30:02

through our supreme court jurisprudence. Precedent.

30:04

Matters And I will say that there are

30:06

times in which President. Needs to be scrutinized.

30:09

We. Would never have gotten to Brown v Board

30:11

of Education. If in fact, we held

30:13

on to policy. But that said, this was a

30:15

court. That was cherry picking through

30:17

history. Unbelievable. Yeah, unbelievable. Now let

30:19

me. I'm not a lawyer. I'm

30:21

the hack someone to take us

30:24

back to Twenty Twenty Four. That

30:26

good, I'm given. The options President

30:28

Biden has before him in terms of

30:30

what he can do administratively and what

30:32

he can advocates Congress do if he

30:35

wins the election, what should he be

30:37

advocating for and terms of legislation and

30:39

is there more that he could be

30:42

doing administrative lead to try to protect

30:44

women's health? Well, There are a number

30:46

of arguments that are being made explicitly

30:48

on that. For example, There's the

30:50

Women's Health Protection Act. It has

30:53

strong support and the senate and

30:55

Congress. And the house and needs to get

30:57

over the line. That would essentially clarify row. But

30:59

there are many who say that that doesn't

31:01

even go far enough that that should be

31:03

a baseline. And that row was a baseline

31:06

itself. There's also the Equal

31:08

Rights Amendment. and strange that here. We

31:10

are in twenty twenty four when

31:12

so many other countries around the

31:14

world have instantiated equal rights for

31:17

women in their constitution. And.

31:19

The Ratification. They say that the field

31:21

theory has been ratified. now. There are

31:24

thirty eight states when Donald Trump was

31:26

in office, He ordered. Through.

31:28

A letter to the Archivist not to

31:30

file the he are A and so

31:33

the archivists didn't. Share. Those that say

31:35

that look even if it might. Be talent show

31:37

bite and should feel state to the archivist.

31:39

Now call file their so that the

31:41

Ers is in effect and if there

31:44

are those are going to challenge at

31:46

let them then go Challenge This. There.

31:48

Are other concerns that have come up

31:50

Her has thera spaces with then federal

31:53

lands where abortion clinics could be established

31:55

and so that individuals who are within

31:57

states where there are federal lands could.

32:00

Go and terminate pregnancies are get the

32:02

reproductive health care and those spaces that

32:04

they could. What? Is clear is

32:06

that the president and vice President have

32:08

been articulating. Even more, the

32:11

importance of respecting reproductive autonomy.

32:13

And freedom and the backdrop of it. There.

32:16

Are Republicans that are supporting

32:18

this? to. Even if privately so maybe

32:20

these are republicans were voting at home.

32:22

Not. Necessarily writing op eds about this,

32:25

but I say that in relation to

32:27

the ballot initiatives that have been successful

32:29

time and time again weather and red

32:31

states. Or. And Blue State when

32:34

abortion as been on the palate. It's.

32:36

Been a winning issue. Though

32:38

it's. Great to have somebody

32:41

who knows so much more than

32:43

we do on his podcast. About.

32:45

A subject said Belgian and I care

32:47

deeply about. and frankly, most Americans care

32:49

deeply about. Thank. You for your

32:51

scholarship on this. Thank you for all

32:53

your hard work around this issue. It

32:56

is greatly appreciated. Michelle. Goodwin.

32:59

Sushil Law Professor and author of Policing

33:01

the Womb, Invisible Women and the Criminalization

33:04

of Motherhood. Is been terrific. To get

33:06

your perspective we thank you very much thank you

33:08

very much you're inviting me on your show. It's

33:10

pleasure to be with. You. Before. We

33:12

wrap we want to answer listener questions.

33:14

As they come up and we thought this. One. From Ram

33:16

in Kansas was worth noting. Is.

33:19

Not really a question that it's a comment.

33:21

That. Shows you what people are thinking

33:23

out here in the heartland. One.

33:26

Thing that seems to be missing is a

33:28

call to President Bush to come out and

33:30

show some backbone. He. Needs to come

33:33

out like lose cheney. Against Trump. He's

33:35

been sitting in his Texas ranch say

33:37

nothing, although his brother, Jeb Bush is

33:39

awfully quiet and Florida. For the

33:42

sake of our history, democracy, and standing in

33:44

the world. George. Bush needs to

33:46

come out and openly ask people to

33:48

vote for Biden to save democracy. Mitt.

33:51

Romney is said it but not Bush

33:53

know what is asking. These conservative

33:55

republicans to support the Biden

33:57

agenda but not supporting democracy.

34:00

Thanks. Ram. Yeah. I heard

34:02

as a couple things that is my understanding

34:04

is one that President Bush does not believe

34:07

it was so bad because of his unpopularity

34:09

within the Republican party. would just be like

34:11

see another establishment Republicans have it on on

34:13

the side of Trump Big deal. Know the

34:15

establish are homeless or on the site of

34:18

Trump. I still think it would matter. You

34:20

know it just helps. It helps that like Vice President

34:22

Pence a saying he won't vote for him and held

34:24

set A lot of the former cabinet members are saying

34:26

that and. There. Is something there's

34:28

a difference between democrats republicans

34:30

as assaults dangerous make generalizations

34:33

where I find. Them.

34:35

That might rally around issues more

34:37

and Republicans loyalty is really chords

34:39

to them and their some party

34:41

leaders from Hurley there to set

34:43

to smoke break that pledge so

34:45

I don't know what the combination

34:47

of concerns As for President. Bush.

34:50

But you know I think it would help. Well I think if

34:52

for. Every republic and that thinks that won't

34:54

help to speak out. They Bella Company and

34:56

to me, whether it helps or not, it's

34:58

the right thing to do. Yep! Yep!

35:01

Amount of. Thanks. So

35:03

much less nice if you a question for as

35:05

you can send it to how to when questions

35:07

at Nbc Un I. Dot Com or you

35:09

can leave us a voicemail Six four

35:12

six nine seven four for One Nine

35:14

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For a quick break to talk about

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