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Hi, everyone.

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Welcome to the next episode of

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the Bay Street Capital Holdings

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podcast titled How'd You Do It &

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Why Should I Care? This series

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aims to highlight women doing

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amazing work in various

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industries. So today, we are so

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lucky to be joined by Kim Hamer,

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who is author of 100 acts of

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love. Hi, Kim, lovely to have

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you on the show. Hi, so

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Great to be here.

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So I guess we can

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start off with a quick

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introduction as to who you are,

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and perhaps a main answer to the

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question of the podcast, which

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is how do you do it? And why

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should I care?

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So why should you

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care? So first of all, I help

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individuals, managers and HR

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leaders understand how to be

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more effective with employees

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affected by cancer. And most of

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the time, when we hear about a

0:43

cancer diagnosis from our

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friend, we don't feel good, we

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feel scared for them, we want to

0:49

do something that shows them how

0:49

much they care how much we care

0:53

about them. And oftentimes, we

0:53

ended up actually saying one of

0:57

the least helpful things you can

0:57

say, which is, if you need

1:00

anything, let me know. And I'll

1:00

explain a little bit more about

1:02

why that's the least helpful

1:02

thing. But one of the reasons I

1:06

started on this journey, or the

1:06

reason I started on this journey

1:09

was because my husband had

1:09

cancer twice. And then at the

1:14

age of 44, he died. And our

1:14

children at the time were 12,

1:17

nine and seven. And something I

1:17

noticed during his both his

1:21

cancer entanglements because I

1:21

don't refer to them as battles.

1:25

And after he died was people,

1:25

some people knew exactly what to

1:29

do. And they did these small

1:29

little things that were so

1:31

deeply helpful. And some other

1:31

people didn't know what to do.

1:35

And they just sort of went to

1:35

this panic. And sometimes they

1:38

did things that were not

1:38

helpful. Sometimes they said

1:41

things that were actually

1:41

borderline mean. And I know that

1:44

they didn't mean to at the time.

1:44

But I also recognize that they

1:48

didn't know what to do. And one

1:48

of the things that happened

1:52

during this period is I started

1:52

calling these things that people

1:54

did for us acts of love, because

1:54

that's what they felt like, you

1:57

know, they would be like, here,

1:57

let me pick up your kids from

1:59

school. That's an act of love.

1:59

Here's a meal, here's an act of

2:02

love. Let me fill your car with

2:02

gas. It's an act of love. And so

2:07

a few years after my husband

2:07

died, I sat down and wrote down

2:12

many of the things that people

2:12

did for us that were really,

2:14

really helpful. And then I took

2:14

a deep dive actually into a

2:17

little bit of psychology about

2:17

why we say things that are not

2:21

helpful when we're really trying

2:21

to be helpful. And from that

2:24

sprang my book 100 acts of love,

2:24

had a girlfriends guide to

2:28

loving your friend through

2:28

cancer and loss. And my website,

2:31

also 100 acts of love. So why

2:31

should you care is because how

2:36

you show up for your friend who

2:36

is dealing with whatever tragedy

2:39

it is, it doesn't have to be

2:39

cancer or death, but one of

2:42

those major life hiccups, how

2:42

you show up really, really

2:46

matters to them. And I'm in a

2:46

testament to that, because I

2:49

don't think I'd be here without

2:49

the small and wonderful things

2:52

that people did for us. During

2:52

that really difficult time in

2:56

our lives.

2:57

How wonderful that,

2:57

you know, that book came out of

3:00

a, you know, your friends

3:00

helping you out? And I'm just

3:02

curious, because it doesn't seem

3:02

like you kind of expected to

3:05

write a book. So I'm curious,

3:05

what inspired you to sort of

3:09

write your book and what made

3:09

you want to sit down and write

3:12

about these 100 acts of love?

3:14

That is so that's a

3:14

really good question. I mean, I

3:16

joke that I wrote the book for

3:16

myself. Because if I had been my

3:20

friends who was watching, you

3:20

know, me going through this

3:22

tragedy, I would not have known

3:22

what to say or what to do. But I

3:26

really can't even pinpoint the

3:26

moment where I said, Oh, my God,

3:31

I have to write this down. But I

3:31

started, I kept a blog during

3:34

both my husband's cancer battles

3:34

and entanglements. And so at

3:39

that point, I started writing

3:39

little tips and saying, Hey, I

3:42

could really use this and have

3:42

you really use that. And then

3:45

what happened is people started

3:45

showing up and I think somewhere

3:47

around year four or five after

3:47

he died, I just had this it was

3:50

almost like a, you know, like, I

3:50

just had to get it out of me.

3:55

But I was terrified. I didn't

3:55

think I was an author. I didn't

3:59

you know, my dad was an author,

3:59

my mom was a writer, but I

4:02

didn't consider myself a writer

4:02

at all. And so what I started do

4:06

to break it down and chunk size

4:06

pieces pieces is I started

4:10

writing for 17 minutes a day, I

4:10

set a timer. 15 fell too short.

4:14

20 felt way overwhelming. So I

4:14

set a timer for 15 for 17

4:18

minutes every day. And when that

4:18

timer went off, especially in

4:21

the beginning, I would stop

4:21

writing even if I was mid

4:24

sentence. And what I found was

4:24

even ending mid sentence allowed

4:27

me to pick it up. And and and it

4:27

was it was it wasn't done in my

4:32

head. So when I went back to it

4:32

the next day, I could pick it up

4:36

and start writing. So I actually

4:36

wrote the book and these 17

4:39

minute increments. Wow, I

4:39

started to get into it.

4:42

Sometimes they were like 20

4:42

minutes or 23 minutes, but

4:46

rarely did I ever get past like

4:46

3435 minutes of writing. So

4:50

that's how I wrote the book.

4:52

That's really interesting. And I'm very surprised that you stopped after

4:54

17 minutes each time because

4:57

usually people would say oh

4:57

finish your sentence and Is your

5:00

train of thought before you

5:00

stop. But I guess that kind of

5:03

enables you to come back to the

5:03

book the next day and just feel

5:06

like you have something to say

5:06

and continue writing and then

5:09

get back into the flow of things.

5:11

Yeah. And I knew

5:11

myself well enough to know that

5:14

if I got to a, even to this day,

5:14

when I finished something, even

5:18

if it's not finished, I feel

5:18

like I'm done. And it's really

5:22

hard for me to reengage with,

5:22

with whatever I'm writing. If

5:24

I'm in the middle of something,

5:24

and I stopped mid sentence,

5:27

especially, it's easier for me

5:27

to engage. So this whole notion

5:31

of completion was actually

5:31

worked backwards. For me, I

5:34

couldn't be idea of completing

5:34

something really overwhelmed me.

5:40

So if I stopped mid sentence, or

5:40

midway through, it really helped

5:43

me kind of get to the point

5:43

where it was completed.

5:46

Yep. Oh, awesome.

5:46

And following on from that, as

5:49

you mentioned, your mom and dad

5:49

were both kind of creative

5:52

writers and writers. I'm

5:52

curious. Other than that, what

5:54

were the best resources that helped you along the way when you were writing your book?

5:58

You know, I did it

5:58

very, very much on my own. But

6:01

then when I got to what I

6:01

thought was the final draft, I

6:05

invited four friends over. And

6:05

they I put the book up on Google

6:10

Sheets. And they made comments

6:10

and we sat down, we did this for

6:14

several weekends in a row, we

6:14

sat down, they helped me edit

6:17

the book, for about two hours,

6:17

three hours of stretch. And so

6:21

things that I thought were so

6:21

clear, because in my head, I

6:23

knew exactly what I was saying,

6:23

right? Or what I meant by that

6:26

same. And they were like, I

6:26

don't understand this. Why would

6:29

you put this here? Why would you

6:29

put that out there, they asked a

6:31

lot of questions. And they also

6:31

really encouraged me to dive

6:36

deeper into my story. Because I

6:36

think what happens is my story

6:39

is my story. And, and after a

6:39

while, it becomes part of me. So

6:43

I don't think of it as a big

6:43

deal. Like, I know that when I

6:47

told some of you all that my

6:47

husband died at the age of 44,

6:51

there's a moment of shock, no,

6:51

like, oh, my gosh, he was so

6:54

young, and your kids were so

6:54

young. But for me, since it's

6:57

part of my story, it's not a big

6:57

deal anymore. And so they really

7:01

encouraged me to talk more about

7:01

my story. And to be really

7:05

honest about why I was writing

7:05

that book and what this drive

7:08

was, because otherwise, I would

7:08

have kind of glossed over that

7:12

part of it.

7:13

Okay, that's really

7:13

interesting. And following on

7:15

from that, I guess this

7:15

experience definitely cropped up

7:19

in news unexpected, but were

7:19

there any lessons that you wish

7:21

you would have known before

7:21

starting to write your book?

7:25

Yes, um, to have more

7:25

courage, I don't know, if

7:29

there's something that you can

7:29

teach yourself to have more

7:31

courage. I think the thing I

7:31

would have done was rely more on

7:35

friends, people kept telling me

7:35

it was a really good idea, and

7:38

you need to do it. And I just

7:38

kind of, I poopoo them outright

7:42

sometimes, you know, because I

7:42

just couldn't wrap my head

7:45

around the fact that I had

7:45

something to say that was worth

7:48

putting in a book. I feel very

7:48

grateful that I was able to

7:52

stick with my with my vision. So

7:52

one of the things I did about

7:56

with the book was, I wanted to

7:56

make it really easy and

8:00

accessible. So the tips are

8:00

these, there's, you know, 53 buy

8:04

her a gas card, this, this

8:04

chapter is all about the car

8:07

help, you know, offer to

8:07

register her car. So I wanted it

8:11

to be a book where someone goes,

8:11

Oh, my gosh, what do I do? What

8:14

do I do? And they open it up?

8:14

And it says, you know, say you

8:18

are not alone. Right? And then

8:18

it gives a little explanation.

8:23

So I'm very grateful that I

8:23

stuck. That image was very clear

8:27

in my head from the beginning.

8:27

So I'm very grateful that I

8:30

stuck with that. And I think the

8:30

other piece of advice I would

8:32

have given myself probably

8:32

wasn't just do it. There was so

8:37

many things. I had so many

8:37

stories I told in my head about

8:41

what was going to happen when

8:41

the book when I did the book,

8:43

and then I didn't have enough

8:43

tips to put in the book. And why

8:46

was there going to be 100 There

8:46

was so many fear thoughts in my

8:49

head. And the problem with fear

8:49

thoughts I find this for

8:52

everyone is they sound just like

8:52

us. And they sound really

8:55

reasonable. And so sometimes

8:55

it's hard to distinguish between

8:58

what is a fear thought and what

8:58

is an actual good caution to

9:02

take. Yeah.

9:04

Oh, well, that's great. And then following on from that, you know, what would

9:06

you say was your biggest failure

9:10

when writing this book? And what

9:10

did you learn from it?

9:13

My biggest failure

9:13

was waiting for over to discover

9:16

it. I was like, it's beautiful.

9:16

It's really well done. She's

9:22

gonna discover it. And then my

9:22

life is gonna be great. Right?

9:26

So, so she hasn't discovered it

9:26

yet. And that's because my

9:30

biggest failure was not thinking

9:30

about the marketing that I was

9:32

going to do around it. Was was

9:32

and I still and actually, I'm

9:37

just now really embracing it,

9:37

about calling attention to it

9:42

and about saying, This is why

9:42

you need this book. And it's so

9:44

important. And so I think that's

9:44

my biggest failure was sort of

9:48

thinking that this was going to

9:48

be a magic pill. And then I was

9:51

gonna write, you know, publish

9:51

this book. And Oprah was gonna

9:54

discover it and I was gonna get

9:54

on the Oprah show and I was

9:57

going to sell a million copies

9:57

and life was going to be good

10:00

And there are a million stories

10:00

out here. Like every one of us

10:04

has a story that deserves

10:04

attention and time and for

10:08

people to, to pay attention to

10:08

because there's a lesson in

10:11

them. But we have to do our job

10:11

of making sure that people know

10:16

about that story and can tell

10:16

that story for you, you know, in

10:20

the marketplace. So I think

10:20

that's the biggest lesson that I

10:23

learned. And then I would do

10:23

over again, for sure. Uh, you

10:26

never know, there's

10:26

still time for Oprah to discover

10:28

it. So hold up hope I definitely

10:28

would say,

10:31

I'm on my way there.

10:33

Yeah. Following on

10:33

from that, what would you say is

10:36

one common myth about writing a

10:36

book or writing your book

10:39

specifically that you would like to debunk?

10:42

I think that you have

10:42

to do it all at once. I mean,

10:44

this book took me a year to

10:44

write at 17 minute increments. I

10:48

didn't do it all all the time.

10:48

So there's this myth that to be

10:53

a writer, you have to write a

10:53

book have to be a writer, I'm

10:56

not a writer, I just really

10:56

don't consider myself a writer.

10:59

I am good at giving people

10:59

directions. You should do this.

11:08

That's where this book came

11:08

from. I think that's the biggest

11:11

myth. I think the other biggest

11:11

myth is that is that it needs to

11:15

be like we have these images of

11:15

what a book is. And like I said,

11:18

this book was very clear to me

11:18

about this image. And people

11:20

kept saying, No, you need to do

11:20

it this way. And I kept holding

11:23

on to this as what I want it to

11:23

be like, you know, I want it to

11:27

be sort of a coffee table book.

11:27

And so being really clear on

11:31

what your images and what you

11:31

the vision you have for that and

11:34

just stay true to that. I think

11:34

that's, that's that's those are

11:37

the those are the those are the

11:37

things that are really

11:39

difficult, but that are that I

11:39

think sometimes people like

11:44

there's this myth that you have

11:44

to be a writer, you have to have

11:46

some type of message when I started this, I didn't have a message.

11:49

Oh, you know, I think that's the best way to start with a clear mind and just

11:51

have that, you know, Canvas sort

11:54

of write your own book.

11:55

Yep. I will say this

11:55

exactly. And it's trust the

11:58

process. Yeah, I didn't have a

11:58

message, until I realized I was

12:04

calling it 100 acts of love.

12:04

Because was when I was writing

12:07

these things that people had

12:07

done or things that I wish

12:09

people had done, or stories that

12:09

I heard that, you know, someone

12:12

had done for a friend, I

12:12

realized, Oh, these are acts of

12:15

love. That's all these are. And

12:15

once that once that happened, I

12:19

was just trusting the process of

12:19

writing down the tips, and then

12:22

all of a sudden, that's where

12:22

the name came from.

12:25

That's great. And

12:25

more about you because I'm

12:28

curious, what have you read or

12:28

listened to recently, this

12:30

really inspired you?

12:32

Oh, my God. So I am

12:32

into Brene Brown's podcasts on?

12:38

Oh, I'm going on and we're gonna have right now she's two podcasts on Spotify. And I have

12:40

listened to and re listen to her

12:46

podcast, I think it's their to

12:46

lead podcast. Yeah. And really

12:50

super, super powerful. Not

12:50

because she her podcasts are

12:56

resource rich. And so I find

12:56

them you know, I'm able to pick

13:02

things out and look up studies

13:02

from things that she said and

13:05

follow people, and really do

13:05

more research, because I've

13:08

often I'm not a psychologist or

13:08

psychiatrist, you know, a doctor

13:13

or anything and I talk about

13:13

these feelings of, of when I

13:17

will absolutely. Let's talk

13:17

really, right. Now, let's talk

13:19

about why you don't say if you

13:19

need anything, let me know. The

13:23

number one reason you don't say

13:23

that is because you're putting

13:25

the pressure on the person who

13:25

was under a great amount of

13:28

stress to figure out what you

13:28

mean by anything, right? If you

13:31

offered that to me, or if I

13:31

offered it to you. Did you know,

13:35

do you know that? I mean, did I

13:35

mean that I would take care of

13:38

your child? If you have one? Did

13:38

I mean that I would sit with

13:41

your dying mother? Did I mean I

13:41

would just get you pick up a

13:44

gallon of milk, right? So

13:44

anything is too big a word to

13:49

wrap anyone's head around. So

13:49

that's the first thing. The

13:52

second thing is when you say

13:52

that you're asking me to break

13:55

down my day into bite sized

13:55

pieces. And, you know, we don't

13:59

normally go around going, Hey, I

13:59

would like some toothpaste. When

14:02

brushing my teeth. I'm almost

14:02

out of soap. And I could do some

14:04

laundry detergent cuz I need to

14:04

wash my clothes, or I really

14:07

need a housekeeper because my

14:07

house is filled with like, we

14:09

don't go around thinking that

14:09

way. And so you say if you need

14:12

anything, you're then not only

14:12

you're saying, You're asking me

14:16

to figure out what anything is

14:16

to you. But now you're asking me

14:19

to take break down my day and

14:19

bite sized pieces to figure that

14:22

out. And third is let's say just

14:22

by chance. I know the thing that

14:27

I need. And now you're asking me

14:27

to have the courage when I am

14:31

feeling under a great amount of

14:31

stress, extremely vulnerable, my

14:34

life is falling apart. You have

14:34

the courage to ask you to do

14:38

something that you may not want

14:38

to do. And I have to risk you're

14:43

either going to not really one

14:43

on one of the dues that

14:46

rejection or you're not doing it

14:46

all. Yeah, there's no way that

14:50

I'm going to call you with that

14:50

one thing. And psychologically,

14:55

we offer this because sometimes

14:55

we don't we were nervous About

15:00

getting close, we're nervous

15:00

about connecting on the

15:03

empathetic level, say we can do

15:03

anything, then that allows us to

15:08

take a step back. And we have to

15:08

be action oriented, because

15:11

anything is like a gallon of

15:11

milk wash the car, right? It's

15:14

action oriented action to us

15:14

feel so much better than sitting

15:20

inside the grief or the

15:20

difficulty. But in reality, that

15:25

is how we connect. That's

15:25

actually what drives us feeling

15:29

connected to each other. And so,

15:29

with Brene, brown, I knew that

15:34

instinctually that was what it

15:34

was when I couldn't quite put my

15:37

finger on it. And now all of a

15:37

sudden, she's offering me

15:40

studies that show that is

15:40

exactly you know, how we connect

15:45

and why it's so important. So

15:45

that's, so that's why I'm into

15:50

her podcast right now. I've

15:50

listened to them all, I go back,

15:53

I listened to them, once I've

15:53

gone back and listened to

15:55

several of them taking lots of

15:55

notes. I've gone back and

15:58

listened to a third time and

15:58

pulled the research that she

16:00

talked about. So it's I find

16:00

them very inspiring for me where

16:04

I am right now, in my building

16:04

my business.

16:07

That's great. And

16:07

then as you mentioned, you had

16:10

very many people who you could

16:10

rely on, due to the unfortunate

16:13

circumstances with your husband,

16:13

but who were three people in

16:17

your life who were the most influential to you?

16:20

You know, I saw that

16:20

you hand me this question. And I

16:22

was like, I don't know. I'm

16:25

I know, I'm sorry,

16:25

I had to only be three people,

16:27

I'm sure.

16:29

I have to say, as I

16:29

as my children get older, my

16:33

husband died 12 years ago. So as

16:33

my children get older, and I

16:37

know this sort of a stock

16:37

answer, but it really is

16:39

watching my children navigate

16:39

the world dealing with grief.

16:43

Because what I've noticed they

16:43

have done is they are vulnerable

16:49

and really key moments, I used

16:49

to tell them that they find that

16:54

you know that all hearts are

16:54

dented. And we often find people

16:57

with the same sort of dents. And

16:57

so they're able to find people

17:00

who have lost a parent and they,

17:00

they gain these really close and

17:03

intimate friendships with these

17:03

people. Their hearts are so

17:08

deeply big because of their

17:08

experience. And I watched I

17:13

watched my, my both my sons, you

17:13

know, really come to the aid of

17:18

someone who had lost a sibling

17:18

or come to the aid to pick up

17:23

people who were feeling loss,

17:23

you know, just themselves and,

17:27

and give them a space to express

17:27

that loss. And so those I mean,

17:32

if I had, you know, I could say

17:32

thanks to Poulsen as well, but I

17:34

won't count those as I'll count

17:34

those as one. So I think that's

17:36

my children. I think really,

17:36

people who inspire me are

17:42

there's a woman who, um, her

17:42

name is Michelle Neff,

17:46

Hernandez, and she started

17:46

something called soaring spirits

17:49

International, which is a

17:49

widow's group, and she started

17:53

doing something called Camp

17:53

widow. And, and it is a camp for

17:57

widows who are mostly under 50.

17:57

And I remember the first time I

18:02

went, I was absolutely

18:02

terrified. I went by myself,

18:05

like I didn't know very many

18:05

other young widows. And I walked

18:09

into the room, and I remember

18:09

feeling this great amount of

18:12

relief. Just just just

18:12

disappear. Because I didn't have

18:17

to tell my story. I didn't have

18:17

to deal with the, oh my god,

18:22

that's so horrible. All those

18:22

things that made me feel other

18:25

and different from people. I got

18:25

to walk in the room. And I

18:28

noticed that everyone in there

18:28

had the same story. And so she

18:32

really inspired me to do the

18:32

same thing. But to do it for

18:37

people who want to support their

18:37

friends, because oftentimes,

18:40

people will want to support

18:40

their friends are also feeling

18:43

isolated, and they don't know

18:43

what to do. And they have all

18:46

these questions. They just want

18:46

to be in a room with other

18:48

people where they go, I tried

18:48

someone goes, Oh, my gosh, me

18:51

too. And this is what they said.

18:51

So she really inspired me. And

18:56

then I think the other person

18:56

who really inspired me is I, I

19:02

have a mentor, a spiritual

19:02

mentor, spiritual guide. And the

19:06

woman who got me to him really

19:06

inspired me because she lives

19:10

out loud. So what she did was, I

19:10

remember I didn't know her very

19:15

well, but I called her the day

19:15

before my husband died, it was

19:17

very clear that he was dying. We

19:17

were in the hospital. And I had

19:20

spent all this time in the

19:20

hospital room with him I needed

19:22

to get out because people kept

19:22

visiting, and no one who I knew

19:27

who had visited had had any

19:27

experience like this. And she

19:30

had told me a lot a while ago

19:30

that her husband and that her

19:33

father had died. And I just felt

19:33

this gentleness about that

19:36

comment that she made. And I

19:36

called her and we went out to

19:38

lunch. And it was just the

19:38

sweetest, kindest moment and I

19:43

realized then that she she lived

19:43

very open with her heart very

19:47

open and I had I wanted to live

19:47

like her and it took me years

19:52

and I'm still trying to live

19:52

like her. But to be honest and

19:55

open and frank and vulnerable,

19:55

like she was just so openly

19:59

vulnerable. And so she's she's

19:59

the third person who really

20:03

inspires me, especially as I

20:03

build this business, she's built

20:06

a separate business on around

20:06

the different topic, but I watch

20:10

her build that business and I,

20:10

you know, I watch her, you know,

20:14

I want to be like her and live

20:14

like her. So those are the three

20:17

or six or five people who really

20:17

inspire me the most

20:21

amazing. And then

20:21

finally, to round up our

20:23

conversation for the day. What

20:23

is one piece of advice that you

20:26

wish you gave yourself at any

20:26

point in your life?

20:31

You know, I'm so this

20:31

is so not, you know what, I'm

20:35

gonna do this one, be

20:35

vulnerable. Like, and stop

20:41

judging the feelings. I have

20:41

stopped myself from doing so

20:45

many things because of my not

20:45

because of the feeling I had

20:51

about doing it. But because I

20:51

judge the feeling I had about

20:55

it. So if I was feeling scared,

20:55

I judge the fear as you're not

20:59

good enough. You don't you're

20:59

not brave enough. You're just

21:01

not doing it. Well, you can't do

21:01

it. So I judged it that way.

21:05

Instead of honoring, yeah, I'm

21:05

scared. Like, I'm really scared.

21:09

I don't know what's gonna

21:09

happen. And I'm just gonna go

21:12

for it anyway. So I think that's

21:12

the advice I would have given

21:15

myself, my 18 year old self,

21:15

just to you know, like, not to

21:21

judge the feelings of feelings

21:21

are just feelings. They are not

21:25

right. They are not wrong. They

21:25

are just feelings. And I went

21:31

through a large part of my life

21:31

being the judge, jury and

21:33

executioner based on the

21:33

feelings that I had, and judging

21:37

them as wrong or bad, or scary

21:37

and not taking action because of

21:42

that.

21:43

Well, yes, a very

21:43

important message. So thank you

21:45

once again, Kim, for taking the

21:45

time to speak with me today. Our

21:48

conversation was so enlightening

21:48

and just very, very engaging

21:51

overall.

21:51

Well thank you. I'm

21:51

so honored to be here. I'm so

21:54

honored to be have been asked to

21:54

really appreciate everything

21:57

that you're doing. And thank you

21:57

so much for inviting me,

22:00

of course. All right, then take care.