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Seth Hi there and welcome back to the Hugos There podcast and really welcome to the first episode of Hugos There 2.0. I am rolling out the first cycle of new episodes, ah selfishly I'm starting with a book off the list of titles that I wanted to cover that haven't necessarily won anything. Seth So my guest for this episode is Emmanuel Dubois and he should be no stranger to listeners to my podcasts having guested previously on Take Me To Your Reader for Slaughterhouse-five and on Hugos There for Blackout and All Clear, in both cases bringing his historian knowledge to bear on both those novels. Well all three of them really because Black Out and All Clear are actually two novels. So Emmanuel, bienvenue mon ami. Emmanuel Merci beaucoup, bonne soirée, good to see you. Seth It's good to see you and good good to talk to you and um, this was one of those things where when I put the list up there, you were one of the first people to grab one of the titles and it happens that the book that we're going to be talking about, Planet of the Apes by Pierre Boulle was originally written in French. Ah, so that's very cool. Emmanuel Yes, it's one of the reasons I picked that box not the only one. ah ah I'm not the only French speaking guy in the world. You know there are a couple of them. But it's ah it's both an interesting read and the fact that is a French book translated in English for you is also going to provide some interesting points. Seth Yeah, and I feel like it's a kind of a under-read classic of science fiction. I think most people know about the movies but not necessarily the book and you know I'm covering this here even though previously we did cover it on Take Me To Your Reader in our second episode that we ever did and it was just, oh I'll get back to that in the meantime though since you have appeared on any of my podcasts you have started a podcast of your own and I think it's a good idea to give a plug here. Emmanuel Thank you so my podcast is ah is a French history podcast for the American public. It's called Lafayette, We Are Here, so you just type Lafayette We Are Here in any podcast platform or Google you'll find it I have. I have over 20 episodes now I make it for a bit over a year and I will cover pretty much any subject from a famous person to an event to a movement like I did the French Enlightenment for example or I did we Louis the Fourteenth recently I did Charles de Gaulle, French Indochina subjects like this, and I would recommend you listen to my Napoleon episodes this year with the movie coming up I did two episodes on Napoleon and so if you want to get a good idea about his life and what he did. There's a lot of preconceptions about the man that would be wrong. Seth Yes. Emmanuel And ah I had the chance to have a big episode with four guests including two historians on the legacy of Napoleon Bonaparte, which proves interesting and relevant also in the context of the movie which looks fantastic. You know I can see two errors per ten seconds but I don't mind them. You know they don't prevent you from actually understanding the guy in the story. So go for it and it looks fantastic. It looks accurate like for the costumes and stuff it looks they did the research so that's that's a good point so that's that's me. Seth Nice, nice yeah, and I really enjoy that you have a variety of episodes from like you. You did just a sort of a big history idea of the entire history of France and then you do zoomed in ones you know on the um the French Revolution and zoomed in on particular characters as well. It's very cool. Emmanuel And the next one concerns you guys Americans because it's not going to be on New France and for the which covered a big part of what it is now the United States even if many people don't know about that so stay stay tuned man. Seth Um, ok, cool. Yeah, so um, like I said one thing that I..want to change up the format just a little bit for doing. Um. At least some of these episodes because for ones that I wanted to cover I want to you know say why did I want to cover this one and like I mentioned I have previously talked about this one on Take Me To Your Reader and talked about the movies and I'm sure we'll talk about the movies some here. Um I purposely didn't go and re-listen to my Take Me To Your Reader episode. Two reasons one is it's the second episode we ever did and it's a little clunky. Um, and I also didn't want to repeat myself or at least be conscious of repeating myself. So I'm sure I probably will say some of the things that I said then because it's my the same brain kind of doing it. But um i. I want to do very brief non-spoiler discussion and just sort of overall thoughts and then go into spoilers for pretty much the whole thing. Seth So starting off for this one and Emmanuel I want to get your idea about this too about you know why you were interested in this book. Um I'll start with mine. Um, for me, it's just kind of a special book. Because of how much I love the Planet of the Apes franchise of movies and it's one of those books that prior to kind of moving into the podcast for Take Me To Your Reader I had no idea that the novel existed and you know my my only knowledge was that there were movies and that I loved the movies and I think I said this on the episode but there was a library I used to take public transportation to work and there was a tiny little library in one of the light rail stops that had a couple of hundred books and one day I walked by it I had a library card so I just grabbed their notebook that said you know everything that they had in there and that's how I found the book. Um. And so it was something that I read like on my work commute. Um, and just loved it from the very start and now I've read it 3 or 4 times and still think it's absolutely tremendous. So that's why I wanted to talk about it and so Emmanuel what about your history with this title and you know why you are interested in talking about it. Emmanuel Yeah, so like yeah, most people I discovered the the movies before the book. Even though you know being French is a bit of a shame. But anyway ah because the movies got so big that everybody knows about them and it's interesting because the movies if you take all of them. They cover the book, but not not single one of them actually covers the book like you have the themes and is a bit over everyone and going to be and I'm going to do when we talk about the movies a bit more later or rant about Americanization. But that's fine. You can imagine Ah, but it is interesting. You know, ah how Americans tend to take some property and make it their own. You have a special way of doing this. It's put it this way and um. Seth Yes, well even if you look at at movies right? There's a lot of very well-regarded American movies that are actually remakes of Chinese movies Hong Kong movies you know ah European movies of of all kinds and Americans typically know about the remake. Emmanuel Yeah, well you know? Yeah, exactly you welcome ah top of my head. You know the movie True Lies with Schwarzenegger. It's a French movie anyway. Ah, but yours has bigger explosions. Ah so. Seth Um, yeah, it's a French movie. Emmanuel And but also this book. Ah La Planète des Singes in French Planet of the Apes is very interesting because it's in one sense. A very classic French and how can I put it? Ah what we call the conte philosophique, philosophical tale and that goes all the way back to the French Enlightenment. Um, and to me that's really is very important in the sense that it's pure French way of doing it through a nice story and a clever story which is a kind of a tradition and it appeals to me because of that as Voltaire did that in a novel like ah Micromégas, don't know if you ever heard of that Micromégas. It's basically the the story of an alien called Micromégas coming from a planet from called ah from the star of Sirius. And that name should ring a bell because as a protagonist son's name so that's an that that comes directly from there and there is another guy coming from Saturn and they go on Earth and when they get there they of course they examine examine The French society criticize it and they give their own point of view on the French society of the time. So it's a tool for Voltaire to criticize a society without saying hey it's not me is that guy from Saturn you know? Ah so I won't go to the Bastille this time. Ah, it's It's a way of preventing that so I find it's in that French tradition of tales that, so Boulle does not do it not to be imprisoned hopefully but she does it as a way to carry his message and yeah, he actually takes on many themes in a relatively small book which I find very appealing. Seth Cool, Yeah, and and that's stuff where I feel like ah to the American audience. We might not get some of that subtext. So I'll I'll rely on you for that. Um, one thing that I wanted to ask right? off the top is, throughout the American translation, the word monkey is used instead of ape and the the first I think English translation by Xan Fielding that came out and I think it's the the same version that I read calls the book Monkey Planet and and so is that a mistake on the translator's part or is there a different French word for monkey and for ape. Emmanuel So no, ah the word singes means both. Ah so the thing is I've seen I look at the history of this translation and apparently the first American translation was called Planet of the Apes. But the first English transition was Monkey Planet. Seth Gotcha. Emmanuel So because I guess you know if you actually I think the British translator did not read the book before translating the title because when you look into it, there are only what you call in English apes you know chimps gorillas ah, and orangutan these are apes they're not monkeys, but in French we call them all singe. But with context, it's pretty easy to figure out what they are and sometimes we will call them Grands Singes which is like great monkey Seth Um, great apes. Yeah. Emmanuel Great Apes, yes. So you know ah but other context is pretty easy to figure out I mean you know what? you're not talking about a bonobo here. Seth Yeah, exactly I wonder if in a couple of the movies. They they kind of still have someone using the word monkey and and escape from the planet of the apes in particular, it's considered an insult by Cornelius when when one of the Earth men, because they've come into the past on Earth and it's all ridiculous. But I love that movie. Um, but he keeps calling him a monkey and Cornelius flies off the handle and murders him. But um, the the guy deserved it and then in the ah in the unfortunate Burton Tim Burton movie Marky Mark Mark Wahlberg actually says monkeys instead of apes at some point. Emmanuel Yes, it's That's very interesting because it does touch on that evolution subject that is very important to the book. Seth Um, yes, yeah, Well yeah, and and when when you look at ah sort of the history of evolution versus creation. The the Scopes Trial which is this famous trial about the teaching of evolution in public schools. Um. Is called the Scopes Monkey Trial. So That's the way it's remembered Seth So Let's go ahead and dive into quick non-spoililer synopsis and you know I do want to say if you haven't read the book, you've only seen the movies then you do owe just owe it to yourself to check the book out before we spoil it because there are of course some differences between the movie and the book and some major ones. It's hard also to I think everybody already knows a lot of what we would consider spoilers but there are some of the differences that like, I enjoy when you can read a book and enjoy it on its own merits because it's different enough from the movie and this is definitely one of those cases where you'll be like oh okay, major plot points in that movie did not occur in this book and and that's cool. Emmanuel Yes, and I do think that as a whole the book is more coherent that most of the movies. Seth Yes, yeah, and like you said, if you've seen all of the original Ape Movies. You're not going to find anything from Beneath the Planet of the Apes in this book. But um, aspects of at least the the original movie and the Conquest and Battle For Planet of the Apes movies are very much in there and then the more recent movies kind of do a little correction on on some stuff from the book and we'll talk about that when we get to it. Emmanuel Yeah, and the Tim Burton movie does have an ending that is closer to the book, also. Seth It does. Yeah, even though it doesn't make any sense. Um, at least in the movie. So ah. Okay, non-spoiler synopsis. Do you want me to take this or do or do you have something prepared. Emmanuel I don't I didn't write anything for that. But I could go top of my head. Seth Okay I can do it. It's it's basically like the back of the the back flap or the inside flap of the book. Emmanuel Perfect. Seth Um, so the novel tells the tale of three human explorers from Earth who set out to visit a planet orbiting the star Betelgeuse. And upon landing discover a world in which great apes are the dominant intelligent and civilized species whereas humans are reduced to being savage animals. Nonverbal, and that's that's as far as you can go with the kind of non-spoiler things that people already know about these books. And I don't really want to go further than that until we get it over into spoilers. Emmanuel Yes, and I would say that the book is published in 1963 which in France is ah um to put kindly a trouble time the 60s I mean you had your your own 60s but in France was a colonizing power as you know and we are in the process at the time of pretty much losing all our colonies which is not a smooth process, wars and ah horror stories like you know have no idea and of course men like Pierre Boulle authors intellectual are sensible to this kind of trauma. So for example, France had lost Algeria during the war in 1962 just right right right before and you have parallels in that story to the situation that France was facing. Um, for example by what right can a society dominate another. Emmanuel Ah, or does technological superiority gives you authority. Ah racial discrimination and ah Boulle intends this in my opinion to be a reflection on of Earth Society I mean even the Planet's name Soror it means sister in Latin So it's pretty obvious that you know he wants us to see the parallels in that story and I saw and enjoyed the the structure of the book if you will if we can go like in but spoiler but it's from the first chapter. Ah, actually the story starts with two characters ah in a ship and they find a message that you find like, ah, a small journal and they start reading it and this is the story of the main protagonist and those so it's a tale within a tale. So those those two characters are called Jinn and Phyllis and um and they read through Ulysse's story who is the main character. And ah and at the end they will simply reject it as a simple fantasy even though it's a truth. Seth Yes, and we'll we'll get to that in spoilers as well. Um, that's interesting though. I hadn't really considered what the what the cultural backdrop was in France because it's it's not something of course I barely learned American history in in high school. And so knowing what was going on in France in the sixties I I didn't have any idea so I'm I'm I'm glad that you brought up stuff like the colonization Algeria you know all that kind of stuff. Emmanuel Yeah, it makes sense and also it's I think I think like in science fiction I mean American science fiction is a hundred times bigger than French science fiction. We don't have as much of um I mean we have the tradition I mean all the way back to Jules Verne but it's or even Voltaire the Micromegas three I told you about is science fiction. Seth Yeah, yeah. 16:15.14 Emmanuel Um, but we don't have the same output as you have or even the british have. It's just a more important genre in english it is what it is but in the sixty s there is well like there's like a spike another fam ous work from that time is called ah La Nu deton the end of times by an author called ah Seth Hi there and welcome back to the Hugos There podcast and really welcome to the first episode of Hugos There 2.0. I am rolling out the first cycle of new episodes, ah selfishly I'm starting with a book off the list of titles that I wanted to cover that haven't necessarily won anything. Seth So my guest for this episode is Emmanuel Dubois and he should be no stranger to listeners to my podcasts having guested previously on Take Me To Your Reader for Slaughterhouse-five and on Hugos There for Blackout and All Clear, in both cases bringing his historian knowledge to bear on both those novels. Well all three of them really because Black Out and All Clear are actually two novels. So Emmanuel, bienvenue mon ami. Emmanuel Merci beaucoup, bonne soirée, good to see you. Seth It's good to see you and good good to talk to you and um, this was one of those things where when I put the list up there, you were one of the first people to grab one of the titles and it happens that the book that we're going to be talking about, Planet of the Apes by Pierre Boulle was originally written in French. Ah, so that's very cool. Emmanuel Yes, it's one of the reasons I picked that box not the only one. ah ah I'm not the only French speaking guy in the world. You know there are a couple of them. But it's ah it's both an interesting read and the fact that is a French book translated in English for you is also going to provide some interesting points. Seth Yeah, and I feel like it's a kind of a under-read classic of science fiction. I think most people know about the movies but not necessarily the book and you know I'm covering this here even though previously we did cover it on Take Me To Your Reader in our second episode that we ever did and it was just, oh I'll get back to that in the meantime though since you have appeared on any of my podcasts you have started a podcast of your own and I think it's a good idea to give a plug here. Emmanuel Thank you so my podcast is ah is a French history podcast for the American public. It's called Lafayette, We Are Here, so you just type Lafayette We Are Here in any podcast platform or Google you'll find it I have. I have over 20 episodes now I make it for a bit over a year and I will cover pretty much any subject from a famous person to an event to a movement like I did the French Enlightenment for example or I did we Louis the Fourteenth recently I did Charles de Gaulle, French Indochina subjects like this, and I would recommend you listen to my Napoleon episodes this year with the movie coming up I did two episodes on Napoleon and so if you want to get a good idea about his life and what he did. There's a lot of preconceptions about the man that would be wrong. Seth Yes. Emmanuel And ah I had the chance to have a big episode with four guests including two historians on the legacy of Napoleon Bonaparte, which proves interesting and relevant also in the context of the movie which looks fantastic. You know I can see two errors per ten seconds but I don't mind them. You know they don't prevent you from actually understanding the guy in the story. So go for it and it looks fantastic. It looks accurate like for the costumes and stuff it looks they did the research so that's that's a good point so that's that's me. Seth Nice, nice yeah, and I really enjoy that you have a variety of episodes from like you. You did just a sort of a big history idea of the entire history of France and then you do zoomed in ones you know on the um the French Revolution and zoomed in on particular characters as well. It's very cool. Emmanuel And the next one concerns you guys Americans because it's not going to be on New France and for the which covered a big part of what it is now the United States even if many people don't know about that so stay stay tuned man. Seth Um, ok, cool. Yeah, so um, like I said one thing that I..want to change up the format just a little bit for doing. Um. At least some of these episodes because for ones that I wanted to cover I want to you know say why did I want to cover this one and like I mentioned I have previously talked about this one on Take Me To Your Reader and talked about the movies and I'm sure we'll talk about the movies some here. Um I purposely didn't go and re-listen to my Take Me To Your Reader episode. Two reasons one is it's the second episode we ever did and it's a little clunky. Um, and I also didn't want to repeat myself or at least be conscious of repeating myself. So I'm sure I probably will say some of the things that I said then because it's my the same brain kind of doing it. But um i. I want to do very brief non-spoiler discussion and just sort of overall thoughts and then go into spoilers for pretty much the whole thing. Seth So starting off for this one and Emmanuel I want to get your idea about this too about you know why you were interested in this book. Um I'll start with mine. Um, for me, it's just kind of a special book. Because of how much I love the Planet of the Apes franchise of movies and it's one of those books that prior to kind of moving into the podcast for Take Me To Your Reader I had no idea that the novel existed and you know my my only knowledge was that there were movies and that I loved the movies and I think I said this on the episode but there was a library I used to take public transportation to work and there was a tiny little library in one of the light rail stops that had a couple of hundred books and one day I walked by it I had a library card so I just grabbed their notebook that said you know everything that they had in there and that's how I found the book. Um. And so it was something that I read like on my work commute. Um, and just loved it from the very start and now I've read it 3 or 4 times and still think it's absolutely tremendous. So that's why I wanted to talk about it and so Emmanuel what about your history with this title and you know why you are interested in talking about it. Emmanuel Yeah, so like yeah, most people I discovered the the movies before the book. Even though you know being French is a bit of a shame. But anyway ah because the movies got so big that everybody knows about them and it's interesting because the movies if you take all of them. They cover the book, but not not single one of them actually covers the book like you have the themes and is a bit over everyone and going to be and I'm going to do when we talk about the movies a bit more later or rant about Americanization. But that's fine. You can imagine Ah, but it is interesting. You know, ah how Americans tend to take some property and make it their own. You have a special way of doing this. It's put it this way and um. Seth Yes, well even if you look at at movies right? There's a lot of very well-regarded American movies that are actually remakes of Chinese movies Hong Kong movies you know ah European movies of of all kinds and Americans typically know about the remake. Emmanuel Yeah, well you know? Yeah, exactly you welcome ah top of my head. You know the movie True Lies with Schwarzenegger. It's a French movie anyway. Ah, but yours has bigger explosions. Ah so. Seth Um, yeah, it's a French movie. Emmanuel And but also this book. Ah La Planète des Singes in French Planet of the Apes is very interesting because it's in one sense. A very classic French and how can I put it? Ah what we call the conte philosophique, philosophical tale and that goes all the way back to the French Enlightenment. Um, and to me that's really is very important in the sense that it's pure French way of doing it through a nice story and a clever story which is a kind of a tradition and it appeals to me because of that as Voltaire did that in a novel like ah Micromégas, don't know if you ever heard of that Micromégas. It's basically the the story of an alien called Micromégas coming from a planet from called ah from the star of Sirius. And that name should ring a bell because as a protagonist son's name so that's an that that comes directly from there and there is another guy coming from Saturn and they go on Earth and when they get there they of course they examine examine The French society criticize it and they give their own point of view on the French society of the time. So it's a tool for Voltaire to criticize a society without saying hey it's not me is that guy from Saturn you know? Ah so I won't go to the Bastille this time. Ah, it's It's a way of preventing that so I find it's in that French tradition of tales that, so Boulle does not do it not to be imprisoned hopefully but she does it as a way to carry his message and yeah, he actually takes on many themes in a relatively small book which I find very appealing. Seth Cool, Yeah, and and that's stuff where I feel like ah to the American audience. We might not get some of that subtext. So I'll I'll rely on you for that. Um, one thing that I wanted to ask right? off the top is, throughout the American translation, the word monkey is used instead of ape and the the first I think English translation by Xan Fielding that came out and I think it's the the same version that I read calls the book Monkey Planet and and so is that a mistake on the translator's part or is there a different French word for monkey and for ape. Emmanuel So no, ah the word singes means both. Ah so the thing is I've seen I look at the history of this translation and apparently the first American translation was called Planet of the Apes. But the first English transition was Monkey Planet. Seth Gotcha. Emmanuel So because I guess you know if you actually I think the British translator did not read the book before translating the title because when you look into it, there are only what you call in English apes you know chimps gorillas ah, and orangutan these are apes they're not monkeys, but in French we call them all singe. But with context, it's pretty easy to figure out what they are and sometimes we will call them Grands Singes which is like great monkey Seth Um, great apes. Yeah. Emmanuel Great Apes, yes. So you know ah but other context is pretty easy to figure out I mean you know what? you're not talking about a bonobo here. Seth Yeah, exactly I wonder if in a couple of the movies. They they kind of still have someone using the word monkey and and escape from the planet of the apes in particular, it's considered an insult by Cornelius when when one of the Earth men, because they've come into the past on Earth and it's all ridiculous. But I love that movie. Um, but he keeps calling him a monkey and Cornelius flies off the handle and murders him. But um, the the guy deserved it and then in the ah in the unfortunate Burton Tim Burton movie Marky Mark Mark Wahlberg actually says monkeys instead of apes at some point. Emmanuel Yes, it's That's very interesting because it does touch on that evolution subject that is very important to the book. Seth Um, yes, yeah, Well yeah, and and when when you look at ah sort of the history of evolution versus creation. The the Scopes Trial which is this famous trial about the teaching of evolution in public schools. Um. Is called the Scopes Monkey Trial. So That's the way it's remembered Seth So Let's go ahead and dive into quick non-spoililer synopsis and you know I do want to say if you haven't read the book, you've only seen the movies then you do owe just owe it to yourself to check the book out before we spoil it because there are of course some differences between the movie and the book and some major ones. It's hard also to I think everybody already knows a lot of what we would consider spoilers but there are some of the differences that like, I enjoy when you can read a book and enjoy it on its own merits because it's different enough from the movie and this is definitely one of those cases where you'll be like oh okay, major plot points in that movie did not occur in this book and and that's cool. Emmanuel Yes, and I do think that as a whole the book is more coherent that most of the movies. Seth Yes, yeah, and like you said, if you've seen all of the original Ape Movies. You're not going to find anything from Beneath the Planet of the Apes in this book. But um, aspects of at least the the original movie and the Conquest and Battle For Planet of the Apes movies are very much in there and then the more recent movies kind of do a little correction on on some stuff from the book and we'll talk about that when we get to it. Emmanuel Yeah, and the Tim Burton movie does have an ending that is closer to the book, also. Seth It does. Yeah, even though it doesn't make any sense. Um, at least in the movie. So ah. Okay, non-spoiler synopsis. Do you want me to take this or do or do you have something prepared. Emmanuel I don't I didn't write anything for that. But I could go top of my head. Seth Okay I can do it. It's it's basically like the back of the the back flap or the inside flap of the book. Emmanuel Perfect. Seth Um, so the novel tells the tale of three human explorers from Earth who set out to visit a planet orbiting the star Betelgeuse. And upon landing discover a world in which great apes are the dominant intelligent and civilized species whereas humans are reduced to being savage animals. Nonverbal, and that's that's as far as you can go with the kind of non-spoiler things that people already know about these books. And I don't really want to go further than that until we get it over into spoilers. Emmanuel Yes, and I would say that the book is published in 1963 which in France is ah um to put kindly a trouble time the 60s I mean you had your your own 60s but in France was a colonizing power as you know and we are in the process at the time of pretty much losing all our colonies which is not a smooth process, wars and ah horror stories like you know have no idea and of course men like Pierre Boulle authors intellectual are sensible to this kind of trauma. So for example, France had lost Algeria during the war in 1962 just right right right before and you have parallels in that story to the situation that France was facing. Um, for example by what right can a society dominate another. Emmanuel Ah, or does technological superiority gives you authority. Ah racial discrimination and ah Boulle intends this in my opinion to be a reflection on of Earth Society I mean even the Planet's name Soror it means sister in Latin So it's pretty obvious that you know he wants us to see the parallels in that story and I saw and enjoyed the the structure of the book if you will if we can go like in but spoiler but it's from the first chapter. Ah, actually the story starts with two characters ah in a ship and they find a message that you find like, ah, a small journal and they start reading it and this is the story of the main protagonist and those so it's a tale within a tale. So those those two characters are called Jinn and Phyllis and um and they read through Ulysse's story who is the main character. And ah and at the end they will simply reject it as a simple fantasy even though it's a truth. Seth Yes, and we'll we'll get to that in spoilers as well. Um, that's interesting though. I hadn't really considered what the what the cultural backdrop was in France because it's it's not something of course I barely learned American history in in high school. And so knowing what was going on in France in the sixties I I didn't have any idea so I'm I'm I'm glad that you brought up stuff like the colonization Algeria you know all that kind of stuff. Emmanuel Yeah, it makes sense and also it's I think I think like in science fiction I mean American science fiction is a hundred times bigger than French science fiction. We don't have as much of um I mean we have the tradition I mean all the way back to Jules Verne but it's or even Voltaire the Micromegas three I told you about is science fiction. Seth Yeah, yeah. Emmanuel Um, but we don't have the same output as you have or even the British have. It's just a more important genre in English it is what it is but in the 60s there is well like there's like a spike another famous work from that time is called ah La Nuit des temps the end of times by an author called ah Rene Barjavel. And the premise is it is on earth but it is I think in the near future but they discover ah basically two humans in Antarctica frozen in a ship. Ah, and of course they discover one of them is a woman an astonishingly beautiful woman. And the men character falls in love for her so you see some parallels you know and it is the 60s and it takes and it is France you know so you have to expect beautiful women in the story and men that don't have that high moral standards when it comes to women. Seth Yes, um so overall thoughts about this when you you said so I discovered this one in my thirties probably late twenties maybe um, when when did you discover this book and you know what kind of overall thoughts on it. Emmanuel I discovered it probably ten years ago but actually read it a couple of years ago for first time and I really enjoyed it I mean it is um as I said a small book quick read is well paced, well structured and but she does need I would say a couple readings to get all of it. Seth Okay. Emmanuel Ah, even though it's smart even though it's short. It's very well written I don't know how well the transition is made but in French it's very good writing. Boulle is a very good writer and it's um, as ah and it's just an enjoyable read and you you kind of feel that he's giving you a lot of content here. There is a lot of messages like every single act of the characters carries 2 or 3 meanings to me. It's really a philosophical tale. You should not take it at face value I know that for example, when it was released especially in the Anglophone world., Boulle was accused of being a racist. Emmanuel Of ah promoting Um, ah how can put it like backwards ideas. And yeah, if you read the book at face value. That's what you would You would think but either it's a bad translation or an issue with cultural references I don't know but in French is very obvious Boulle is not defending those ideas. He's condemning them. Seth Yeah, um, yeah it um and and for me too like I instantly love the book and ah, I found it pretty well written I I think there's one clunky chapter. But for the most part, the plotting is very good and I think the translation reads just fine like I didn't know it wasn't written in English I knew it was written by a French author. But then I had to find out later that it was actually written in French. Um. But yeah, very very enjoyable this time I actually got the audible version of it just because I've read it in print a few times and I I thought I would listen to the audio book. It's only like five and a half hours something like that. It's very very quick book and yet I won't say it's dense, but it reads like a longer novel in that I feel like it's well-developed and you spend a little more time with the characters in the book than you for instance would get in a movie and and the events take a place over a longer time. Emmanuel Yeah, and it's funny because Pierre Boulle himself talk of this book like a fantasy, like he wrote it for the fun of it and and I've seen that when he was approached to make a movie at first of course by French producers remember that's 1963-64 he's like how are going to do a movie with my book without it looking ridiculous. It's going to look horrible on the screen. He said that's so I don't know how the deal was made with the Americans I guess it convinced him that they had enough effects to make it look good and it did I mean the first movie looks good, especially from them 60s you know. Any it was convincing. Seth Yeah, and what an Oscar for the for the makeup. So yeah. Emmanuel Yes I mean for the time you when you compare that what was done before that it is clearly a leap forward keeping with that evolution the theme. Ah but he yeah and but I'm sure you had no idea what it would span in the long term. Seth Yeah, okay I say we dive right into spoilers. Emmanuel Agreed. Seth Um, and ah so if you're the type person who doesn't want to be spoiled on what's in a book then this is where you jump off otherwise you know continue along and then decide if if you if you regret it. Let me know. Um, so like you mentioned there's the framing narrative and um, it's kind of amusing because it's it's two people, two characters out in a pleasure craft just floating through the solar system I feel like maybe Boulle didn't um. Didn't know how large space is kind of the JJ Abrams problem where like it would take you months to get anywhere. But um, yeah I think 50s and 60s science fiction sometimes did that where. Emmanuel Yeah, even the the time it takes them to go from our system to Betelgeuse. Um, yeah, he takes in account the time fluctuation like you you travel at ah the the speed of light, hundreds of years are going to pass back back home but they travel to me they seemed like they traveled too far a distance given how long they travel. So It's like it's not very well explained. But as you said you know it does give it context and at some point you're like okay just roll with it. It's don't make the calculation. Seth Yeah, you you can actually do the math and come up with if they were able to achieve 99 point like nine 9 nine nine nine out to 7 or 8 places of the speed of like then you get not only the time dilation but you get length contraction. So the journey is shorter. Emmanuel That makes sense. Seth And um I I think I did the math on the Take Me To Your Reader episode. Um, so it it does actually work out I don't think it has to to still be fun. Um, but um, yeah, so the framing narrative they find the message in a bottle essentially and it's fun in the book, but you can see why this was not and especially when we get to the end and we reveal what what is happening there. There's a reason why they threw out the framing narrative because it would have been difficult to do I Think there's one way that it could have been done and it might have been fun but I'm I'm not surprised that they threw that out. Emmanuel I Yeah, it's not necessary just would complicate about the the setting. Seth Um, so I'm yeah yeah I agree so I'm going to kind of do a ah rough plot walkthrough and just you know wherever you want to talk about anything just jump in. Okay, um so the book is set in the year 2500-ish, at least that's when the message of the bottle in the bottle is found so it could have been there for centuries who knows um but you do have the main character and I will try it, Ulysse Merou Seth I'll need more practice on that and then Professor Antelle, and then the character we we meant I can't remember if we mentioned this I think we were talking about this before we started recording about the colleague Emmanuel Yeah, Arthur Levain Seth Yes, Levain, and I'll want you to definitely talk about some of the ah the language intricacies there but they're all setting off on a faster than like trip to the Betelgeuse system to investigate an Earth-like planet. It's it's kind of a big ask for someone to say hey how would you like to come on a trip that can't possibly get you home within hundreds of years of the contemporary time. Um, the movie goes into more the Taylor character in the original movie has him being a misanthrope. He doesn't mind leaving his generation behind and I don't think they really establish out in the book that he's that kind of character. He's a journalist right? He's curious. Emmanuel He is and he's just basically saying sounds fun. Let's go because he is it talks about it says the reason why you went was sound exciting I don't have a family. Whatever let's go so it doesn't need more much more explanation than that. Seth Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, um so let's see So do you want to talk about the the names of the characters. Emmanuel Well I mean it's just like the the Arthur Levain is just 'Levain' yeast as we mentioned so it's and he's rising because he's the young physicist and Antelle is like the master the professor professor and Merou a bit on the side as the journalist that he's supposed to tell the story and during the voyage he learns about like how the ship works and stuff like that's going to come in handy later but he is not a scientist. He has some scientific knowledge and that's going to come in handy after when he is on the Planet of the Apes Emmanuel Actually Levain is like a support character. You barely see him. He's basically there to be killed Seth yeah, he's the Red Shirt. Yeah from Star Trek. Emmanuel Yeah.is a Red Shirt exactly you need it and even when he does you like he is is it's less painful for Ulysse than when he finds out about what happened to the professor. Seth Yes, definitely yeah, that that is interesting. The the bit about you know, essentially being the same word for yeast or or leaven that you would have in in English. Emmanuel Yeah, there is small stuff like that like the ah the since we're to spoilers at some point Ulysse gets a son and his son is called Sirius which is the name of the star from the story of Voltaire, Micromegas which I mentioned so a lot of small echoes like that. Ah, and. Seth Um, okay yeah. Emmanuel Playing with all stories. So it's part of the French culture background but it's not major but is there. Seth Yeah, it's there and it's something that you know went right by me just because I thought oh well, he's just naming his son after a star. You know everybody knows about the dog star and and um, but he's not an astronomer so it it would have made more sense if he was a scientist to to use that name. Um, but that's that's Interesting, a reference to Voltaire. Ah so they crash land on the planet they call the planet like you said Soror which is the Latin root for sister. Um, and because it appears to be an Earth-like planet fortunately and they discover naked feral humans including Nova who they describe as Golden and Perfect. Emmanuel Yes, she's um, she's an interesting character. She's she's both problematic and interesting because her main attribute attribute especially during the first two thirds of the novel is being beautiful. There is nothing else Seth Yes. Emmanuel At some point you kind of get that she might be smarter than most of her fellow humans on that planet but basically Ulysse is completely gaga about her and he keeps repeating it. How beautiful she is our extraordinary she is and he's like how can somebody so beautiful can be so dumb. Doesn't sound good when I say it like this but it's it's I don't know how many times he mentions how gorgeous she is and how she should be smart. But once we go past that I mean as I said it is a book from the 60s you have to acknowledge that she's the key to the story and she symbolizes to me both humanity's downfall and hope for salvation within the same character and I mean she has a first local if you wish to acknowledge Ulysse's smile and words as something worth exploring and they're just threatening. Seth Yeah, though she also does murder the the chimpanzee that they bring with them. Emmanuel She does she does because to her side it's a death threat. She sees a chimp so she's like I have to kill him Seth Yeah yeah, that was that was pretty shocking I didn't remember that on this read through. Emmanuel She kills him she strangles him and then she runs away. And the 2 of the guys are just like what. Seth Complicated woman isn't she? I I do think it's funny that there's all the time spent on the main character thinking and I'm I'm just probably going to call him Taylor just because it's either easy for me um of him thinking of how you know she's beautiful, but but very stupid. And or very unintelligent anyway and and yet there's the the time when they're all locked up together and he realizes if he wants to get with her he has to do the stupid mating dance and and he just is so humiliated to find himself doing it because he's he's that helpless. Emmanuel On that and that to me one of the main themes of the book. There is evolution in it. It's going to be talked about a lot in the book by both Ulysse and by the scientists by the scientists the Ape scientists because they're going to discover in the story that maybe the humans were there before maybe they establish the civilization and for some reason they regressed and the Apes took their place and about that dance. Ah when Ulysse realizes he has to do that and he has to do what the apes expect of him. They don't expect a man to talk or to do anything else. They expect him to be a beast basically and I find that Pierra Boulle wrote a superb paragraph about it if you allow me to read it I read it in French and and in English because it just sounds better in French Seth As long as you read it, it sounds better in French. If I read it it would not. Emmanuel I just find it ah clever and to the point so bear with me Emmanuel (in French) Oui! moi, un des rois de la création, je commençai à tourner en rond autour de ma belle. Moi, l'ultime chef-d'oeuvre d'une évolution millénaire, devant tous ces singes assemblés qui m'observaient avec avidité, devant un vieil orang-outan qui dictait des notes à sa secrétaire, devant un chimpanzé femelle qui souriait d'un air complaisant, devant deux gorilles ricanants, moi, un homme, invoquant l'excuse de circonstances cosmiques exceptionnelles, bien persuadé en cet instant qu'il existe plus de choses sur les planètes et dans le ciel que n'en a jamais rêvé la philosophie humaine, moi, Ulysse Mérou, j'entamai à la façon des paons, autour de la merveilleuse Nova, la parade de l'amour. Emmanuel And in translation it means, "Yes I, one of the kings of creation began to pace around my belle I the ultimate masterpiece of a millennial evolution stood before all these assembled apes who observed me eagerly in front of an old orangutan. Dictating notes to his secretary before a female chimpanzee smiling with complacency and two snickering gorillas. I, a man, invoking the excuse of exceptional cosmic circumstances firmly believed at that moment that there are more things on the planets and in the sky than were ever dreamed of in human philosophy. I, Ulysse Merou, began in the manner of peacocks the courtship dance of love around the marvelous Nova." Emmanuel So here you have many interesting things, the fact that he considers himself a prime example of human supremacy. You know, I think uses more than human I mean in French It's pretty common at the time that man means human I think even in English at that point Seth Yeah, when I grew up it was the same way. Emmanuel Yeah so I don't think he means it that as men only is and men, the human race is the top of evolution but it takes a big slap in the face at this point in the book. So it's very interesting that how he sees himself and he acknowledges that he has to do those things to get what he wants and to survive. Seth Um, yeah, yeah, so I mean that that was jumping ahead a little way ways to his captivity and how we got there was similar to what we have in the movies where a hunting party comes through and this is where it's revealed that the dominant species are the apes. They capture some of the the humans including Ulysse and unlike the movies he's not shot in the neck. You know he's not injured in any way. It's just when when they lock him up. He's not able to communicate with them because he doesn't know their language and that's that's. Ah, big difference so you never get the damn dirty apes moment which is is too bad, but it's a great moment in the movie. Um, and I like you know that kind of novelty in there. Seth One real big difference though between the movie and the book is that the book goes to great lengths to say that the Ape City is a city of technology. It's a modern city and it's it's not nearly as primitive as it looked in the in the movies where you know they're using horse drown carriages and that kind of stuff in this. They have vehicles. Um, but there's also notes about some ape-specific technology. For instance, they're crosswalks. They don't have to cross in front of cars. They just climb over you know, hand over hand on bars above the road and I thought well of course that's that's the way they would do it Emmanuel Which makes perfect sense. Seth Yeah, so that was kind of neat. Emmanuel Yeah, and I like that as you mentioned Ulysse cannot talk to them because he doesn't speak the language and when he tries basically they they see him as I train what we will see ah as a trained monkey. Like he's repeating some stuff that he's learned but he's not actually intelligent and I find very ah, funny and smart that Ulysse proves his intelligence through mathematics. Ah by showing the Pythagorean theorem and by drawing the system of Betelgeuse. So I find this approach very smart and very typical of you know French Enlightenment. It's part of that philosophy. So. It's brilliant. It's realistic also because if we encounter an alien species math would be the only common denominator or so I think. Seth Um, yeah, yeah, and and even once he starts to to gain some knowledge of the Ape language. When he you know he points at someone and says their name and and does a couple of other things and they just see oh that's cute mimicry that he's doing kind of kind of like when we've taught sign language to gorillas. Um, they're not really learning a language they're they're learning to do things you know, almost like a parrot does or like my dogs know some certain names. But if you say a name that rhymes with that name. They'll perk up the same way because they don't really know the name. They just know the approximate sound. Emmanuel Yes, and that's when he meets Zira, the female. Ah, she's a chimpanzee and she of course symbolizes science and reason in the in the story on the Apes part whereas her her boss Zaius has prejudice and bigotry. So there is also a big um societal comment in how the Apes world is structured Ah, of course it's not an exact copy of our own but it does have many echoes to our own society. Seth Yeah, because you have the the intellectuals or at least the scientists that are the chimpanzees right? Then you have the the police/military that are the gorillas and then the orangutans who are more the government and um philosophers and religious leaders as well and that. Emmanuel Yes, exactly. Seth That gets pretty twisted in there and I like that this is the bulk of the book to me right? that there's longer spent here than I had remembered of of him trying to win over Zira and for her to realize he is intelligent but for her to be smart enough to know we can't. We can't give it away all at once we or we we can't give away our hand too early because the orangutans won't stand for it and and so they don't let Dr. Zaius in on things until they can do it in such a way as to prove everything that they that they're trying to do. And this is a major difference in that he reveals himself to a large company of of other apes and leaders and that kind of stuff and becomes emancipated and so that he can move around basically as a free citizen. Emmanuel Yes, and you see the precautions that they take are very important to to Zira because yeah, she understands that if it jumped a gun, it will be backfired dramatically and he has and Ulysse understands that pretty quickly I would say I mean he's frustrated of course but you can see understand that and maybe I'm reading a bit too much into that but to me the the historical context of the book is very important not only in France but like ah the word at that time because when ah Zaius as I mentioned is her superior and he's the boss of the lab where she works and he as you said he thinks that he is doing ah copying what he sees that he doesn't actually have an understanding and intellectual capabilities. It is the same argument that was made in the 60s by westerners comparing some Asian countries Seth Yeah. Emmanuel Especially Japan that were on the rise at that time. Ah, we thought them incapable of innovation, just capable of aping what the westerners were doing and to clone it. I recall vividly even in my childhood I mean and not that long ago that we thought it was common saying that the Chinese for example, were incapable of inventing anything. They were just copying our stuff which is completely ridiculous if you know anything about China. Seth Yeah. Emmanuel Or any people for that matter I mean all you men sort have the same brain I mean get a book. Um, and Boulle of course does not believe that and he demonstrates how that is wrong and hurtful. Um and despite evidence to the contrary, ah the people in charge and the majority of the population just won't accept that those they seem they deem inferior are capable of achieving that much even though they are and that reason it's very sadly, very still very true in this day and age many people still have prejudice that's are so ah, deep in their body in their feelings that they just won't recognize reality for what it is. They will see it as ah, fake news as you say in the States. Seth Yeah, yeah, and and there's something too where the tendency to see what you expect and if you if you expect humans for instance cannot be intelligent that anything that they do you will reinterpret through a lens of well what could a non-intelligent being do that looks like intelligence. Emmanuel Yeah, it's ah if you look with it through those eyes you're never going to see the truth and you can see that Zira and her ah husband his name escapes me at the moment Seth Cornelius. Emmanuel Cornelius. Thank you they fight for Ulysse but before it's because it's also they nderstand that his cause is their cause is to make their own society go forward and the chimps are they are the creative ones they are the innovative ones and they are blocked by the. orangutans that are in charge and it's like they're both the church and the state at the same time Seth Right. They're the conservative force right? Emmanuel Exactly and a very broad way and it's the way structure is very reminiscent of the ah the with the French society was built before the French revolution. You know you have the three estates you know you have the the the gorillas that are the nobility basically, the warrior cast you have the orangutans that are the church and the state and you have the third estate everybody else. These are the chimps. These are the clever ones the the ones actually doing the work so there is a lot of ah things here that remind me of French history. Pierra Boulle being a French author it makes perfect sense but it can be applied to many societies. Not just the the French one of course. Seth Right and Cornelius and Zira realized that as long as they stay in their lane, they're okay, but if they do anything that that smacks of revolution in any way or anything that anything that varies from the kind of accepted, this is the way things are that's where they get into trouble. Emmanuel Yes, exactly and they fear that you can see that if you're that very dearly. And and you can see where it would go because Boulle gives us an example with Professor Antelle what happens to him is exactly what would have happened to Ulysse if they had not listened to him. It's quite scary. Actually I mean the man is an intellectual's a scientist. Ah Ulysse ah loves the man I mean he he has huge respect for him and at some point I mean I'm dropping a bit ahead, but it's part of that theme at some point he wants to free him and he finds him in a zoo and he goes talk to him but there's nobody there anymore. They completely broke him so they he is not that professor anymore. It's just part of that human ah bestial society that doesn't even know how to talk anymore. So it is um, reminiscent of stories like you know One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest or stuff like that that is a critic of both human imprisonment and the mistreatment of animals kind of at the same time and that it can lead to terrible consequences for the subjects and destroy the moral fiber of the society. Seth Yeah I wasn't totally sure about the the professor and how essentially he he reverts to being savage right? He he loses the the capacity to to use language and I wasn't certain that you know in the movie that character is. Ah, it's a different character but he's lobotomized right? and so he's he got that way through medicine right through Medicine Quote Medicine Butchery Um, where here I didn't necessarily get the impression that he had been tortured or forced into that situation but he allowed himself to to just go feral. Emmanuel Yeah, exactly it's not a medical procedure. It's just know the fact that they put him in that situation. He went into survival mode. Basically you know and he had to do this to survive just like Ulysse had to do his own thing in a completely different context and Antelle adapted. In the way he could so again the theme of evolution of adaptation. All that stuff carries on so it's always part of the book that basically we would do anything to survive and sometime. That's that means transforming into beasts. Seth Yeah I wasn't totally sure that I bought that that would happen. Um, but yeah in in in a book with with apes rising to ah to intelligence and and being verbal and all that kind of stuff I can I can accept it. Emmanuel It's a bit fast. Let's put this way. You have to suspend disbelief at some point. Seth Yeah. So Cornelius is an archaeologist and he reveals to the main character that there's an ancient human city that's been dug up and and this is something that's common between the the book and the movie and in the movie. It's more of a reveal. Um, but I really like the and I can't remember maybe you can help me with this if. I can't remember if Cornelius puts forth this theory that he fears that the apes may be only capable of mimicry and so they may not be able to may not have the capacity for the original thought kind of like we were talking about about the racist ideas about other cultures here. Emmanuel He he does talk about it to Ulysse and they both have like an exchange about that and Ulysse you can hear in his head is reflection that he understands that the Ape Society evolves very slowly because we're basically just doing the same thing over and over again. Emmanuel So what the humans would do like I don't know 500 years it would take them 5000 years because because especially the orangutan and the gorillas are basically incapable of innovating anything. They're just over and over doing the same thing exactly. Seth Well and they they don't want to innovate anything right? because like I said the the orangutans are are the conservative force and the guerrillas are the muscle that helps them enforce it. Emmanuel Exactly so they just don't want it and they can see past that and but you can see that senses like Cornelius have that theory that this is a problem within their own species and it makes sense to release and especially the more they talk with him the more it makes sense to them that they have this issue but of course when they find that doll of a human doll in the and the site and they see it talks and it was by it was made by humans who spoke and they made the doll in their image reminds me of a book, making somebody in your image, and I think it's famous anyway. Seth Heh, yes. Emmanuel So and they see that and he says even though to me. It's perfect proof that some humans made that the wrong thing is just going to say we made that to play with humans and we made it so it looks like us. You know they're always going to reject everything and to me that's also an important theme that for some reason I find more relevant today than it was even in the 60s and that's the theme of intellectual abdication. Ah Pierre Boulle talks about that in all over the book but especially in that that part about the ah the finds, the archaeological finds that if we for faith or intelligence and reason we cannot be complained about the consequences I mean if we're replaced by others who are more daring and we cave in when what can we say about it. Emmanuel I find this as I said very relevant today I mean bullies seems to gain legitimacy over the last few years and ah Trump reason which here force and determination. Ah it is very dangerous and it can lead to disastrous consequences and as a species, we are experiencing what I think is the beginning of a transformative and potentially fatal era. So if we let the bullies the authoritarians the gorillas and the orangutan of our society dictate the terms of our survival. We might not have one and worse I Think we would deserve deserve our fate in that case. Seth Um, yeah, yeah, definitely and and there's another side to that too that um, it's It's easy for you see Americans doing this where they're suspicious of other countries that are out innovating United States some in some areas right? and so then they're like well no, you got to buy American um and and wanting to become very insular and very nationalistic and and reject anything that comes from the outside even though of course you know these other nations might be just doing it through hard work right? It's not they're not doing anything shady necessarily. Not saying that there's no shading dealings going on but um, rejecting things as a knee jerk. You know, not a good not a good look Emmanuel No, if I could give you like a small historical equivalence and I talk about this on my own podcast. Um about the yeah, the Vietnam War talking about your one of your favorite presidents John Fitzgerald Kennedy who hated the French like he hated in his bones. Seth Oh. Emmanuel He yeah he hated the French he had many prejudices against them and his whole administration did because he brought those guys over of course and that was a big issue because the French were the ones who colonized the the place Indochina so they had some experience over the last hundred years or so about this country and the French got out of it in in 54, Americans come in more and more and more and more you know it's a rising involvement and the French in like 1960, 61, 62 are basically saying to the Americans you know we could help you settle something without a war. You know you don't want a war in that area of the world, it's going to be horrible. They told them about that over and over and the Americans they didn't look at the message they were looking at who was giving the message and because it was coming from the French you like nah. We're not going to listen to that. Seth Hmm. Emmanuel And in retrospect when you read those letters when you read those exchanges ah the history that I talk about ah this, Jeff McLaughlin did a whole book about this and he explains it way better than I'm doing now and and the podcast episode we did is so frustrating like you're getting the notes from people in the know who've been there for like a century, here's the problem, and you're saying I won't listen to you because you are you Seth Right. I don't trust the messenger. Yeah. Emmanual I don't trust a messenger I mean the the reason was ah France had lost World War II. They're not a big power anymore. They had many people collaborated with the Nazis and stuff like what does this have to do with going on in Indochina in Vietnam, Laos, and in Cambodia it has nothing to do with it. But it was their reasoning, and as you perfectly well know Vietnam was not exactly a present experience with the us end. Seth No, no, not good at All. So I Want to talk about the the clunky chapter and the clunky chapter to me is is the one where you know Zira is doing work on the brains of humans and has discovered that when you stimulate this particular area of the brain, it gets the person talking. Um now this has foundation in actual medical science. There. There are ways that you can you can stimulate the brain and someone will start talking even someone who has speech issues. Um, but the content of the speech is more or less racial memory where like every human has this memory of how the apes took over and the story is quite familiar to anyone who's watched the movie series because it it starts with apes being taken on as pets slash servants slash slaves um. And then eventually the apes taking over and the idea that the apes always had the anatomy to speak just not the will to, um that doesn't work. Um I don't I don't I was I was reading about this yesterday doing doing a little Wikipedia kind of research trying to find out could apes speak. Um, and you know lots of lots of apes and monkeys have you know larynxes they can make noises. But the idea that the apes would be able to to speak with no anatomical or evolutionary change that doesn't really work for me. Communicate I can I can accept. Um, but that's that's the the chapter of the book that from a science fiction perspective reads as ten twenty years earlier than 1963 to me. Emmanuel Yeah I see what you mean it does not make much sense I mean I think the the important he wanted a way to tell the story of what happened in a clear way and that's what he found which is I agree not exact not as as good as the rest of the book this but this way. Emmanuel Because the rest of the book is very well balanced, very believable and that is like this This is a bit clunky. It's also important though because it does create a message about torture for med reasons I mean Seth Um, yes, yeah vivisection and all kinds of stuff. Yeah. Emmanuel ah exactly and as I said you know you are 17 years away from World War II. So at this point so it is pretty fresh memory for them and it is an important team and I think he wants to you repeat that not a good thing to do to do such things. Yeah, yeah, yeah, ah my biggest problem with it is I feel like it's one of those things where like Beta readers read the book and said I don't quite understand how the apes took over and he went back and added that um and because I don't feel like it's necessary. You already had the the dig the archeological dig that showed there was an earlier human civilization. And so you know the Apes took over. Um I don't think we needed the explanation of how it works and that's that's always the complicated thing with science fiction is the more you go to explaining it the easier it is for it to become extremely dated. Emmanuel Yeah, hopefully the people producing the new Star Wars stuff will listen to us. It's completely necessary. It's ah yeah, but yeah I agree with you. It's It's a big exposition like you've seen so many movies that you know it's true. It's like you if you trust the intelligence of your um audience a bit more. You know they're going to understand the the themes and business and they're going to go with it. But also maybe ah maybe as we said, maybe you had some people read it and they say I don't understand and how this came to happen So this came to be. Seth Um, yeah, and and it's one of those things too where that's your problem? which they they go to a different planet and they discover that there's not only apes but humans uh, on a different planet and and that's your question because it's a very star trek thing where where you've gone. You've gone from 1 planet with humans on it to another planet with humans on it and it doesn't even strike you as strange that you have exactly the same morphological things I didn't they didn't even have you know novel ah forehead architecture like they did in Star trek. Emmanuel True. It's like at least the the the had prosthetics in Star Trek Seth Yes, um, one thing that we didn't mention was that at some point nova became becomes pregnant by by Ulysse and um, that is a major plot point because Cornelius and Zira realize this baby is a threat to ape society and especially once the baby is born and begins. You know precociously talking or making pre-speech sounds much earlier even than I think a typical human baby would ah you've you've had a baby more recently than I have but I don't remember even making pre-talking sounds at three months Emmanuel No I mean yelling yes Seth Yeah, yes, haha. Emmanuel but making talking sounds no so it's of course they have a genius I mean why not I guess you have to move the plot forward, but it's ah but I mean even without that, ah, it would be believable that there are differences between his baby in the typical human baby in that society given the fact that they have absolutely no it. He says it many times he sees it in their eyes. There is no intelligence behind them. It's like looking at a beast. So of course if the baby has that intelligence it's gonna it's gonna show very I would believe that you could see that at three months I mean we look at a human baby at three months old you can see the re agents in that being you cannot talk. He can do all that stuff but you can see he's a smart ah being. Seth Yeah, well, that's why you know with children right? You can teach them sign language before they're verbal and they can learn it. Um I think it's interesting that Escape From the Planet of the Apes almost kind of picks up a little bit of that because Cornelius and Zira have a baby on earth. Emmanuel Yes. Seth And you have the same thing where this baby is now a threat this, this family is a threat because they're telling about another another earth where the apes are the dominant species and so the humans are suspicious and that ends in tragic ways. But it leads to the rest of the series which is fun. Emmanuel Yes, and um, if we go into the um last part of the book because they have that baby So the Zira and Cornelius news figure out that you have to get out of here. You have to leave the planet and of course of course have a way of getting him offworld I mean off planet and then you do still have their ship orbiting the planet and it is very easy for them I find to make a connection. Ah in orbit you know, especially that these two ships were not designed by the same species. But anyhow. Seth Yes, docking is universal. Emmanuel Let's let docking you know, ask any Apollo Pilot How easy it is to dock in orbit Seth They just did a very quick spacewalk between the and the ah vessels. Yeah. Emmanuel exactly So it's like okay you know same thing is a bit wrong with it and because it works for the plot and and same as you said you know if that's your problem. You know you're stuck on details at this point. So they get back on the ship they head back to ah to earth during the I think during the the travel The baby starts speaking and stuff over the few months because basically that's realistic, he explains that they accelerate for a very long time, are in light speed for a very short time and they they decelerate for a very long time. That's actually accurate I think so because the acceleration you cannot accelerate any faster. Otherwise you you would transform yourself into goo. You would just die so that that's actually thought about you know you can see Boulle did some research on how this stuff works which is not common knowledge in 1963 I mean even today is not common knowledge the average person doesn't know about that. Yeah, nor that I think so it anyway and what I find funny is at the end of the book if we can talk about it here now he goes back to earth he finds it very similar. He heads to France, because yeah he's French so he heads back to France, lands Paris at the Orly airport gets out there and he's greeted by the apes. So that's very similar to the Tim Burton movie where he goes back to what he thinks his Earth anyway. But in that case is Washington DC Seth Right Emmanuel And same things is greeted by Apes and I'm ah I'm going to do a small rant if you allow me Seth Yeah, please Emmanuel look I Love I have nothing I am against American culture. But when you grab a story from another culture, you don't have to Americanize the shit out of it (laughter) I mean I get that you want the character to be believable. You want the audience to relate to that character. So one thing not only Americans watch American movies and I don't think having a ship landing in Paris, France would not be recognized as Paris, France you know who doesn't know Paris it's like you don't need that to be Washington DC Seth Right? Yes, yes, establishing shot of the Eiffel Tower and you're good right? Emmanuel Yes, exactly and it's not like it's an ugly city to look at anyway. Seth Right Emmanuel And so it's the kind of stuff that just like like why there is no reason it's like whitewashing but this is culture washing and sometimes it's in small details. Um talking about non French stuff. Are you familiar with the movie Castle in the Sky. It's um, a Japanese movie is an anime movie. Seth Um, familiar but no I'm not a fan of anime. Emmanuel Okay, it's it's fine, but it's a beautiful movie from 1988 I think and that movie has a tremendous score. Absolutely beautiful. Score it is the same score everywhere on earth except in America because the producers felt that it was too Japanese or too non-American so they as a composer to remake the score to be more palatable to your ears talk about not trusting your audience asking the guy to change the score. So the score in the American I mean look at it on Netflix look at the Castle in the Sky, look at the movie like in Japanese with subtitle and look at it again in English you're gonna have the 2 scores and of course the American Score sucks in the sense that it's very bland compared to the original one. It's the same theme the same harmony but it's not the same music Seth Yeah, it's it's dumbed down right. Emmanuel It's dumb down and you're like why I mean if an American is watching a Japanese movie he's gonna expect it to be different. Why would he expect it to be American So that's something that I I mean these guys have no spine I mean the American producers and I don't know importers or people that have the rights for these are guys have no spines and they don't believe that their audience have a brain even though they do in Americans are not dumber than anybody else. So what I if somebody from Hollywood listens to me today. Just trust your audience carry on this culture of differences. They are variable. They are actually something good to watch you know each time I talk about my podcast French history to Americans that's why I did it. You know people are interested in that stuff that's because it's only France because it is something else outside of their own little world and people want to learn about that. Why do we read science fiction in the first place you know, not just to talk about our own home. So it is important to acknowledge that I think Seth Right. Yeah now I think it's It's an excellent rant and I agree wholeheartedly. Um, it is interesting though when he's sort of on his final approach that he notices that he he's surprised. Emmanuel Yes, and it looks the same. Seth Yeah, it's been 400 years since he left essentially and and it looks the same and and that's it's a great sort of first thing that you can pick up on and go oh I think I know what force might keep it from it, you know from advancing if the apes took over and we're just mimicking it and and. Emmanuel It makes sense. Seth And yeah, and and it makes absolute perfect sense in this novel. It makes absolutely no sense in the Burton movie. Um, and I liked it just because for somebody who had read the book I was like ah I understood that reverence you know, but yeah nonsensical. Emmanuel Yeah, that that movie is weird, especially given is Tim Burton who usually makes very good movies. This one is like a mess I don't know what happened I have no knowledge of the history of the prediction or writing of that movie but something went wrong. Seth Yeah I will say the production values in terms of the the ape makeup is tremendous and its leaps and bounds better than the the 68 movie but I think I feel like the producers realized the ape makeup only needs to be good enough to get the audience to buy in and to me it was good enough for that I watched it with Ethan at some point and he was like I have a hard time getting past the makeup. Um, but you know this was somebody who grew up watching the the reboot series with motion capture and and all that kind of stuff which would have been a different thing. Emmanuel Yes, so it's it's not aged well. Seth Yeah, yeah, but I can still I can still watch them and enjoy them Emmanuel Well, even though I yeah and you know I like Paul Giamatti as an orangutan, that just just fun to watch, he's a good actor. You know.I mean the actors are mostly good in that movies like do you have all the aims to make a good movie and it ends up not being a good one mostly because of the writing ah more than anything else. Seth Um, yeah, yeah, so at this point we have them I think I think they get right back on their ship and bug out again. Um I don't know what they don't know what their plans are. Emmanuel Well he does tell that this ship he says that I think at the beginning of the book that the ship is able to sustain life for a very long time like they have reserves and they are available, to they have the ability to grow food and worry and all that stuff so it goes into small explanations on how that work I mean this is Pierre Boulle is not you know Vernor Vinge or something like this so but still, you get the sense that they could live their whole lives on that ship and be fine I don't know how find that be I mean I've read the Ender Saga so you know how well you turn out when you grew up on a ship. Um. Seth Um, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, right right. Emmanuel And as I mean the Bean Saga so you know for those of your listeners many may have probably ever read that I got to so it's not really told about but then he does put this this message in this in space and it is found out by the 2 characters from the beginning of the book who turned out to be apes. Seth Apes Yes, and they are like, That's ridiculous. It's a fun fantasy but it can't um, can't be true right. Emmanuel Of course and they're like me it exactly is ended and then he grabs some tool with his four hands and does something just so it's funny and on that note of funny stuff. There's a few good lines I would say good humor in the book and my. The one scene when I did laugh out loud is the one when Ulysse and Zira are about to kiss like they have love for each other and she rejects him at the last moment claiming that he is just too ugly. It's like in French is Non, mon cherie, it's so funny in the French s Sure turns it well but I did laugh out loud that that that scene because it's very short and you can see the affection and like no, you're just little ugly but see the Apes talking to the humans and you're too ugly so it just okay. Seth Yeah, yeah, and and that's in the 68 movie as well. You're just so damned ugly she says Emmanuel Exactly But I found it in the book just I found in the movie it works but I found in the book. It just works a bit better anyway. Seth Yeah yeah, my my favorite part at the end of the movie is when Taylor shaves off his beard and and kind of, you know, looks at Cornelius and like What do you think? and Cornelius says, Somehow it makes you look less intelligent because he looks less like an ape right? because his face is bare. Seth So yeah, that's I mean that's ah about the plot. So if there's anything else that you want to talk about about you know, things to discuss or if you want to talk about the movies a little bit. We can do whatever. Emmanuel As far as the book goes. We pretty much covered all the themes I had written down in the as for the movies I mean as do the the prequel they did the trilogy. Ah I mean it does cover all that evolution and stuff and that. Ah, race supremacy stuff. There is also I mean we didn't talk about it much but the book talks about slavery a lot. It does talk about slavery and emancipation which resonates everywhere in the movies I feel that it's there. It's not exploited as much as in the movie I mean you do see Charleton Heston with a collar around his neck and being carrying around like like a slave so it is there just not talked about much. It's more a bit more in the book in the movies focus more I mean they are movies so they focus more about conflict of course. Ah you know the war and all that lead sto that and they are good movies I mean they like I like those movies I do think they carry more themes than most action movies. Do I think they are deeper than most action movies are which is good and rare. You know so they they still very relevant I think. Seth Um, yeah, yeah, and the movies definitely pick up a lot of the kind of conservative nature of the the orangutans and the and the what is it. Minister of science and defender of the faith thing. Um, where you know there's official science. We have nothing to fear from real science and it reminds me very much of of Ken Ham and the the Bill Nye debate. Um, where you know he's saying well there's there's historical science and there's empirical science and, no, there's science, buddy just evolution happened just because you didn't don't like it doesn't mean it didn't Emmanuel Yeah, the good thing about science is still true. Even if you don't believe it Seth Yes Neil DeGrasse Tyson yes um and there's there's a suspicion I think it may be uniquely American I don't know um the suspicion of settled science right? Any anytime somebody says? Well we've we've sorted that answer we we know it then we go oh are you sure you know what about this I did my own research. You know, um and science by its nature is not settled but the thing that I don't think people understand is that. When we talk about changes that are going to be made to a well-established theory. It's little changes right? It's refining of a model and so we're not going to find something that overthrows evolution. We'll find things that for instance, discovery of DNA and and you know all all we've learned about genes have helped refine the model you know the origins of the universe. We've refined those models but we've never just thrown the apple cart and and started fresh the closest we have with that is like the quantum revolution in physics. Um, but even that is still trying to there's work going on trying to harmonize everything and maybe that will result in an entirely new theory. But. Um, yeah, sorry rant about settled science. Emmanuel That's fine and to reassure you or not to reassure you, it's not only in America that you see that so it's it's pretty much everywhere I mean through history many times over we've seen that people just not being something because that's not what I've been taught. Okay, well the the concept of researching you know is discovering new stuff. Emmanuel You know, read the definition of the word. So it it is what it is and you just have to go with it if it's plausible but you can see how the human brain works regarding to new facts and new things. Even if they are in your face if you were raised in a certain way, if you were taught in a certain way. You won't be believe it I mean take Flat Earthers as examples I mean there was like a dozen way can prove the Earth is round just by going outside and showing them Seth And without any without any math Emmanuel Right, without any math. Seth Yeah. Yeah, it's the power of motivated reasoning right? I don't want to believe in this and therefore I will find reasons to reject it. That's that's one of the things I saw during the pandemic with the vaccines was because there were people who didn't want to accept a vaccine because they believed that COVID was being overblown because political things because their leader was saying that it wasn't a big deal so they didn't want to accept a vaccine so they found out. Oh It's an mRNA vaccine that's been developed using Fetal Stem cell lines. So now I have a reason I can reject it. But it was the motivation behind rejecting it. Emmanuel Yes, I mean as every everyone I have experience dealing with these people I work in a store you know, so I did have my share of loonies regarding that and it's It's always you know it's just a preconception and then you're going to pick up whatever argument that fits your what you're saying. And what I noticed because if I may say so my own father who passed I away last year was one of those people did not believe in the vaccine. He did not believe in that the reasons he found would change every three weeks but they would also always fit his narrative that started from day one or maybe day ten. Seth Yeah. Emmanuel You know at the first couple weeks were crazy for everybody but I think that's how you react to the unknown and if you are not well-trained in scientific reasoning I'm not talking science, you don't have to be a scientist I am not a scientist. Seth yeah. Emmanuel But I know scientific reasoning I Know the scientific method at least how it works. So basically how to use your brain and also you need to know you need that and you need to know how to criticize effectively. Not just for the fun of it and that's why you should read novels. Emmanuel That's what you should read creative work and not just technical stuff or dumb stuff I mean it's fine watching John Wick just don't watch only John Wick you see my point you need to watch some deeper stuff or to read some deeper stuff to train your brain to see subtleties. Seth Right yeah. Emmanuel And to to see that It's not always a big thing over I mean there was the world is full full of shades of gray. Not all black and white and the COVID example is perfect because did the government make many mistakes. Yeah, they did they a a whole ton of mistakes they were in the same boat as we are ah were the vaccines perfectly efficient? Probably not did they help probably yes, but it was not some big ah corporation or government trying to manipulate us and to put us into cages or whatever that I've heard that doesn't like it doesn't make any sense. Seth Right. Emmanuel It doesn't stand to any argument but you cannot discuss this because the person in front of you has decided that it is that and I won't hear it I won't hear any anything else and they will always be right in their mind so they because they won't put themselves as a question when somebody shows Proofs to me that I was wrong. Okay I was wrong. You know it happens you have to be humble you you you don't have a choice otherwise you you don't move forward. You stay where you are just like the orangutans. Seth Yeah, yeah, and I think I think you make a good point too about speculative fiction in particular right? It helps you think about topics and and like you know this book is not about the 2500s on Earth right? It's about the 60s and situation in France and and that kind of stuff and. Speculative fiction does that and it allows you to to look at your current world in light of what this book is presenting Seth I had a coworker who I would always be talking about a book I was reading and he told me no I never read I never read novels because I feel like if I'm going to read, I should read something nonfiction or something that helps with my career or or that kind of stuff and I just I just think you learn to think better by exposing yourself to to different ideas and sure it's great to read nonfiction I love reading nonfiction. But there's something about novels and especially science fiction novels that. That that challenge you. Emmanuel It does like for example me I I was train ah trained as a Historian I have a master's in history. But if I didn't have some level of if I was not well read if I had not read so many French novels in my teens and then lots of science fiction work in my 20 s and now I would not have a good understanding of history I would just be reciting dates if if you do that if you don't have that capacity of acknowledging differences and subtleties you read Author A and you believe everything he says and you're just going to recite. You're not going to put your brain in between his work and your own way of saying it and then you read Author B Okay, he says that's so I'm going to say that now you know you you need your brain and you need your analytical capacity to make your own choice I mean in my own podcast I deliver my vision of what happened my version I don't just recite some authored per that would be plagiarism and of course in it would not just was it was a point you know so am I wrong on certain points most probably am I going to be changed I've been challenged. Emmanuel And it's fine I should be challenged I don't have supreme Authority on French history not that I'm aware of anyway. But you know it it is the point is to have a conversation you're doing this to have a conversation with your listeners with readers your your your I mean I know you are you go are a Hugo nominated podcast, congratulations on that, but you're still not a god in science fiction but still well deserved Seth Um, definitely not yeah oh thank you. Well I Think we're about wrapped on Planet of the Apes. Emmanuel Yeah, pretty much It is a great book I Thoroughly recommend it to anybody that has any interest in in science fiction or just a good book. Honestly, you don't have to enjoy Science fiction that much to enjoy that book. Seth Yeah, yeah, it's good stuff and that's why I wanted to revisit it and I want to thank you for for picking it off the list and for being my first guest in Hugo's There 2.0 Emmanuel Well I'm honored, Seth. Merci beaucoup Seth yeah yeah it's always great to talk to you. So where can people find Lafayette We Are Here? Emmanuel So you can go on lafayettepodcast.com or you can type Lafayette We Are Here on any podcast platform and um, if you ever find yourself in Montreal Canada where I am I work at a camera store called Camtec Photo & Leica Boutique, if you want to have a chat if you enjoy. the art of photography which is my other passion. You're always welcome. Seth All right, Emmanuel, wonderful talking to you I'm sure we'll talk again right? Emmanuel Yes, we will bye.