0:00

Seth Hi there and welcome back to the Hugos There podcast I'm your host Seth Heasley and this is going to be the first of my Zoomed Out Author episodes in Hugos There 2.0 where instead of focusing on a single book, we look more broadly at an author's overall work giving an intro to the author why they should be read. And then sort of some obvious titles for if you want to become familiar with this author and moving into a couple of advanced topics as well. So if you feel like you're familiar with this author maybe check out these other titles. So for this episode. We're going to be looking at Isaac Asimov and my guest is Alec Nevala-Lee who is the author of the excellent Astounding, a multiparty biography of the golden age of science fiction and also Inventor of the Future, a fascinating biography of Buckminster Fuller Seth Um, so hi there Alec and welcome. Alec Hi ah, thanks Seth. It's a pleasure to be here. Seth Yeah, it's great to have you and thanks so much for taking one for the team and helping me ah, kind of get this series off the ground of the zoomed out episodes where we're rather than looking at a single book, we're going to be looking at an author's entire work and kind of highlighting where someone might like to start if they've started with the author where they should go from there and also of course some background and information about the author and I think that's um, obviously where where you will come in as kind of a historian. Alec Ah, yes, any excuse to talk about this stuff I will happily take. Seth Excellent. Perfect. Let's see so let's go ahead and start with a little background on you I think a lot of people know you from Astounding but in anything else you want to talk about. Alec Yeah I mean so in this context I think I'm best known for being the author of a book called Astounding: John W Campbell, Isaac Asimov, Robert A Heinlein, L Ron Hubbard and the Golden Age of Science Fiction which came out in 2018 and was a Hugo and Locus Award finalist and kind of came out of my long-standing interest in science fiction. I've been a contributor to Analog magazine for a long time I've written novels I've spent a lot of time thinking about the history of the field and um. I was delighted to have the chance to write this group biography of of Campbell and that circle of writers. Ah you know who got together started in the late 30s. Seth Nice. Did it start off as a biography of one person or did you always envision it as a multiparty biography. Alec It definitely ah began with Campbell. Um, so so just for for context, you know John W Campbell was the editor of the magazine that was best known as Astounding Science Fiction. Ah you know, starting in 1937 and he always struck me as an incredibly interesting figure for a lot of reasons very controversial for good reason but also very influential and and you know an incredible personal life and and a lot of drama in his story. So I was like you know a Campbell biography would be a book I want I want to read and so I definitely tried to develop that ah with Campbell as the center and then my editor, ah, very reasonably suggested that you know while Campbell is a very intriguing figure. You know he is not famous in the way that you might justify this kind of big book and she said are there other writers you can bring into the story and I said well with with Campbell the three names that come to mind are Asimov, Heinlein and Hubbard and she said great. Seth Nice. Alec And that's kind of how the book happened it. It began with Campbell then gradually expanded to these four writers and you know as you as you know the book also covers a lot of other people from that period, writers, fans. Um, so it's it's a big book. It definitely expanded as ah, it went along. Seth Yeah, yeah, well I can wholeheartedly endorse it. It's one that I'd like to go back and reread actually I listened to the audio book a couple years ago and yeah I thought it was great. So and so much in there that I had no clue about it was very cool. Alec Well thank you. Yeah, no definitely. What's a book that had to be written and I'm very lucky that I got to be the one to write it. Seth Yeah, so what what is your background I mean where where do you come from? and yeah, how do you end up writing a book about Campbell. Alec So I originally was a fiction writer. Um, you know I began as a novelist and as I mentioned you know I had written for um, Analog magazine kind of by chance you know that that's where I published my first few stories and I kept you know writing a short fiction there for a long time and so. When the idea came to me to write a nonfiction book about the history of the field. It's like you could start anywhere right? There are countless figures you could pick to be your central throughline protagonist. Um and Campbell I chose mostly because it fit nicely with the magazine that I knew best that I had been published in. Alec I knew the editors there I knew a lot of writers from that period or I knew I could get access to writers from that period and so I think Campbell in part because it made sense. You know it certainly um, suited my background and in some ways my interests you know I love hard science fiction I think you know it's a fun genre to to write in and to think about. Seth Um, yeah. Alec And um, you know to me it's it's kind of like my what what? I think of is like the main line of American Science fiction you know kind of runs through Campbell, Astounding, through things like star trek. Um, and again you can kind of debate that's true or not but you know to me when I think of science fiction I think of these writers first. Seth Okay, and are you are you the kind of person I don't I'm not sure if we're similar in age I may be a little older than you um, did you grow up on things like Star Trek and Star Wars and and all of that. Alec Um, you know it's it's funny like I um I'm I'm kind of a like a 90s kid. Um, and so my big reference points were things like the X Files. You know if you look at my own fiction. You know that's kind of the the stuff I grew up enjoying. And you know I mean I'm a Star Trek fan I'm not a completist you know I have not watched a lot of the series. Um I'm kind of like a, I respond to that shows um spirit I guess and its its principles and its values. Um, more than I've spent like hours and hours watching it. Um, but certainly, you know, growing up like I you know I mean one of my rules as a writer is to try to like spend time thinking about the stuff I thought was cool when I was 10 and this stuff certainly qualifies. You know I loved reading science fiction I loved thinking about that period and I loved you know, especially the idea of like being a science fiction writer ah being a pulp writer, being someone who could earn a living writing a short fiction. You know which is amazing. You know it's not true anymore. But you know during this time you could make a pretty good living you know by writing for for someone like Campbell you know which to me was always like really fascinating what that life would have been like. Seth Yeah, yeah, and you definitely get a a slice of that I mean a pretty detailed slice about it in in Astounding. Um, then more recently you you published a biography of Buckminster Fuller, called Inventor of the Future, which as I was listening to it I was like it's more like inventor of his own past. Alec Yeah yeah I seem to be draw to certain types. Um, you know, maybe we can talk about this later but Fuller to me was kind of like a cool obvious you know next step in terms of what ah what? What's my next book about you know Fuller was not a science fiction writer but he was sort of a science fiction hero you know he was a futurist and someone who stood for the the future you know in the minds of a lot of Americans and also kind of this like you know, um, self-made icon and the way that someone like Hubbard was ah you know sort of this very American kind of figure where you know he he embellished some things you know, not everything he said was true about himself and so, um, trying to reconstruct what actually happened plus like how he invented you know that persona to me was a big part of the appeal of that project. You know I think for whatever reason I find those kinds of people really interesting. Seth Yeah, yeah, well we can definitely Ah, we'll circle back to anything you're working on now you know for your next project at the end. How about that? Alec Um, that sounds great. Seth Okay, well, let's go ahead and move into Asimov and I want to start off with just sort of, you know, who Asimov is why he's important anything interesting about the author. Alec Sure, um, so so to me, you know the the place to start with Asimov is just sort of underline how famous he was during his peak. Um, you know? So so when people picture Isaac Asimov, I'm guessing most of them picture sort of the mid to late Asimov this guy who had these big you know plastic black glasses and these huge sideburns and you know had this very distinctive look and he would show up on talk shows and he was sort of a public figure. You know he would he would do lots of events and you know was a hugely popular science writer and kind of was this um known quantity in a way that is pretty unusual. You know I think that there's no question. He was the most famous science fiction writer in America at that point in terms of just if you showed someone a picture of him they would probably recognize who he was which is not true of most writers even now. Um, so that that fame to me is worth underlining but then kind of taking a step back and realizing that you know this is like a late stage in his career and you know the part of his life that I've spent the most time thinking about is much earlier when he was 18, 19 years old um a Russian immigrant who worked at his father's candy store in Brooklyn who just wanted to be a science fiction writer. Um, and you know that young Asimov the one who. Um, was kind of nerdy and nervous and socially awkward and you know very bright but lonely and looking for someone like Campbell to mentor him that that fascinates me because he becomes such an institution later on he becomes so famous. He becomes literally the most prolific writer in American history hundreds of books you know. Seth Wow. Alec Which is incredible but you know it it didn't happen overnight and and that story to me is so interesting. The the idea that this kind of scrawny kid would grow up to become this hugely influential figure. Um that you know I think we kind of take for granted right? But but I think um, you know very little about his story wasn't inevitable. There are all kinds of like really interesting twists and turns there where you know the outcome might might have been very different. You know if if things had had not gone quite as planned. Seth So he I mean he's kind of inextricably linked to Campbell right because Campbell was the was sort of the person who discovered him is that fair to say? Alec Or developed him I would say yeah, so so the context here is that Campbell has become the editor of Astounding like you know like a year or two earlier and he's really looking to develop the magazine into something um, distinct from other pulps at that time. He wants to improve the science. He wants to improve the quality of the writing and you know his first idea is to kind of work with the writers who are are there already so there are there are a few writers like Jack Williamson who you know have the talents to kind of do the stuff that he has in mind other people like Hubbard come in. Um you know who he has to kind of work with who are not necessarily science fiction writers but have, like followings among pulp readers and then something like Heinlein just comes in fully formed I mean Heinlein just shows up one day and he is everything that a Campbell wants. So. That's you know, an incredible stroke of luck. Alec But um, Asimov is interesting because this is Campbell's experiment and seeing if he can develop a writer from scratch because when Asimov shows up he is, I believe 18 years old he is not published anywhere. He he writes a ah short story of you know for the very first time and submits that to Campbell in person. So this is the first story he's ever written and obviously it's not very good but Campbell sees something there and so because ah Asimov lives nearby, he can come and actually visit Campbell at the office in person you know once a month or so and actually um, kind of become this protégé ah you know Campbell is guiding him in terms of his development as as a writer. But also and and well I think we'll talk about this later on you know, giving him ideas or stories and and some of the most important ideas that Asimov is then associated with for the rest of his career come out of those like early conversations with Campbell. So so that to me is the interesting part. It's this sort of partnership or mentorship that um, you know you the Asimov you know acknowledged very openly. He said that he could not have done the stuff he did early on without Campbell's guidance. Seth Cool. So in terms of sort of why Asimov should be read I mean some of what you've already talked about the fact of his influence and and kind of the fact of who he became because he kind of became like the Neil deGrasse Tyson of the time but this is a fiction author and I mean he wrote nonfiction as well and I believe was he trained as a scientist. Alec Yeah, so he's one of the very few scientists or science fiction writers from that period who actually did study science and college. You know he became a professor of biochemistry at BU? Um, so you know he definitely had the background um to talk with ah some authority about these things. Seth Okay, okay, and yet that's where I the comparison with Neil deGrasse Tyson just the idea of being a science communicator, but also then a fiction author which is fascinating. Alec Yes and you know and you asked like why we should talk about him. You know I mean there there are there were various answers I could give ah the obvious one to me is that some of those ideas are still really powerful. Um in ah, a particular the Three Laws of Robotics which which he developed with ah Campbell and ah the idea of Psychohistory from the Foundation series are two lasting ideas that have had a huge influence on people's lives and on on the field and I think um even if you don't end up reading those stories which have not always held up equally well I think knowing the basics of those ideas is useful if you're if you're going to spend time reading and and and writing in science fiction. Seth Yeah, and when you think about the the Laws of Robotics right? It's seeped into the rest of the popular culture where even in the Alien series right? You have Bishop the Android, or the artificial person I believe he he calls himself in Aliens. And he says it's impossible for me to harm a human being or by omission of action allowed to be harmed a human being and that's straight out of Asimov. Alec Yeah I mean clearly you know you you see it invoked and like other science fiction movies and stories and and even when people talk about AI right? I don't know how much it's discussed within the field but certainly in terms of pop culture. How we think about AI and robots. You know those those 3 laws are invoked all the time. Seth One of my favorite little bits of Asimovian influence is ah I loved Buck Rogers as a kid. This was a show that was on in syndication when I was a kid and ah on the Explorer which was, they kind of had two different seasons of Buck Rogers one where there were on earth and another where they were on the Explorer and the Captain of that ship. He was an admiral named Admiral Asimov so that was fun. Alec Nice. Seth Yeah, um so let's go ahead and move into sort of Asimov 101. So if people haven't read any of him, or if they're like yeah I've read some but I want to make sure that I cover the basics where should people start? Alec I would say ah start with Foundation. Um, especially the first couple of stories and the published version of Foundation. Um, because again like not all those stories have held up equally well but um, psychohistory. So this is this idea that there is a science of prediction. Um, where you can forecast future events for centuries using symbolic logic and some kind of mathematics. Um, you know to the point where you can actually make choices that will influence the course of future events all right and um to me this is an incredible idea and I've talked about this before you know people have read those stories and have you know become economists and they've entered the the social sciences because they they find the idea of psychohistory so compelling and you know it's funny because like the the stories themselves. They don't really make it clear what psychohistory is you know it. It is referred to multiple times. Seth Right Alec And you know it's something that that you know the main character or sort of like the the central figure Hari Seldon can do but you almost never see it being practiced and so it's kind of handwavy. It's a little vague about what psychohistory is but it's an incredible idea. You know it's an incredibly exciting idea that you can kind of like um so foresee the fall of this ah ah galactic empire. Alec And then say okay well we can do things to reduce the interregnum to to sort of shorten the dark ages that will that follow? Um, and so like in those first couple stories it introduces the idea which again I think mostly comes from Campbell I think if you look at the sequence of you know, events that led to that that that series I think Campbell was already interested in these things at the time that Asimov pitched that first story and it was almost at Campbell's um you know encouragement that he included those ideas. Um and then later on um, you know there are some not so great stories in that series. But then in the second volume There's a story called "The Mule." Seth Yeah. Alec Which um Campbell asked Asimov to write because he wants to disrupt psychohistory. He wants to say are there things that psychohistory can't anticipate and the result is I think probably the best story in that series and maybe Asimov single best story by some measures. Um. Alec So yeah so I would read the first couple of Foundation stories and then skip ahead to the Mule and then keep going from there if you want. I think that's kind of like a good introduction to the kind of story that Asimov was was good at telling. Seth Yeah, and I mean even somebody like me who was never a huge fan of the Foundation series I didn't read it, you know, probably in the prime of my science fiction reading earlier in life and so when I came to it a few years ago, it didn't completely work for me. I was never able to buy into Psychohistory. Um I Love the idea of it. It's just one of those things that I kind of go. Yeah I'm not sure I but I can get on board with it. But the Mule um that that whole part was was great. Alec Yeah and you know it's important to like you know, kind of calibrate expectations for readers because you know not that much happens in these stories all right? This is even Asimov talks about this like like there is not a lot of action. Ah there is not a lot of world building. Seth Yeah conversations. Yeah. Alec Ah, there is not a lot of characterization. So you're like what's left you you literally have is Psychohistory that this idea that's like very generally you know sketched and so they are kind of like funniest stories to read because um, again, they've changed lives I mean people love that idea you know, but the actual experience of reading them is a little underwhelming sometimes I know I'm not really giving this like the most um you know the hardest sell in terms of trying to convince people to to read them. But you know it's important to to to acknowledge this right? and and that to me is actually kind of inherently interesting too that that these stories could be so influential and so important to certain readers, while not really giving you a lot of the things that you tend to associate with stories like this. Seth Yeah, well, it's I think it's also important to to think about the the way that the Foundation stories were published because it what they were not. They didn't emerge fully formed as a novel right? These were serialized. Alec Yeah I mean I mean Asimov originally didn't want to write to more than one story. Ah you know the so the the famous story here is that he is going to meet Campbell for their monthly meeting and he's on the train there and he's he's trying to think of like a good idea for a story. And he happens to be carrying a collection of ah Gilbert and Sullivan lyrics and he looks at a page and sees an illustration of a century and he's like starts thinking about soldiers and empires and it's like okay how would I write like a story about like the Decline and Fall of the Galactic Empire and for him this is like a maybe like ah a novelette. Seth Um, right. Alec Um, you know, just a one-off story and Campbell you know likes the idea but he says it's going to be a whole series. We're going to do a whole series with this shared backdrop and um, it's going to have psychohistory and Asimov kind of agrees because he has no choice. Um. And he goes home and tries to sketch out the future history the way that Heinlein kind of did for for his stories and he can't like he is not that kind of writer like he he gives up and says I'll just write the first story and go from there and so you know there are often examples in the Foundation series where you can tell this was not planned out. Seth Um, yeah. Alec Um, and there and there are certain things where you can tell that Asimov sometimes will like kind of say oh here's the solution that I'll tell you in the next story and he doesn't actually have the the solution yet. Um he has to kind of figure out like what you know the answer is. So it. It shows right? and and it and these these were lightly revised I think later on but not in a way where they they kind of um, especially the first few stories add up to a coherent narrative. Seth Yeah, and I I think it's also you know a good idea to acknowledge. There's people who have who really struggle with you know 50s science fiction and I get it because modern science fiction tends to be softer. It tends to be more character-driven where where this the older stuff you get a lot of great ideas like you said and you know you don't get the the great characterization, even the plotting isn't amazing, but the ideas are great. Alec Right, and you know like this also extends to the Robot stories. Um, you know because I didn't mention those on purpose because I actually have very little interest in those original robot stories I think um again, the Three Laws are fascinating but very few of those stories are worth reading as narrative um, you know like some of them have like clever twists. But you know they're they're kind of story where like if someone like tells you the twists like that is you know you can you can summarize the the twist ending and like a paragraph and that gives you the same satisfaction as like actually reading this like 10 page story that kind of laboriously lays out. You know, like the the you know build up to this twist and that's true of like most of those stories like like like later on they get okay but um or you know he he gets better as a writer and there are stories that he writes you know like later on that I would recommend wholeheartedly. Um. Alec But you're right I think especially now and and again Asimov was like in his early 20s like he was a young guy. You know who was not super experienced. It's a writer at that at that stage and so yeah, so the the stories hold up because of the ideas that he developed with Campbell um, but with a few exceptions. You know they they don't really, you know it's hard to recommend them to people who are not prepared to make that mental adjustment to you know the quality of the stories from that period. Seth Yeah, yeah I I have to admit I absolutely love the I, Robot stories I reread them every few years and you're right? There's a few of them where I'm like I wouldn't read this if I wasn't setting out to read the whole book because because it's really all about that that last little twist in there. Alec Yeah Seth The thing that I love about, the thing that I love about them though and I think it's important to keep in mind for AI these days is he presents the Three Laws as this perfect way of keeping robots safe but every one of these stories shows that there is wiggle room to to cause all kinds of problems if you don't do it properly. And um, and so that that certainly with with AI these days. You know the idea of there being safeguards needing to be safeguards around AI is important but we also have to keep in mind we may think that we've got safeguards in place but who knows but we won't really know. Alec Yeah and that that's that's part of the fun right? You have these like Three Laws that seem pretty solid. Um, but there are all these loopholes right? and and and you know the the pleasure is watching as I'm off like trying to come up with these exceptions and and and and trying to find ways that you know the robots don't behave in the way that you'd expect. Seth Yeah I particularly love the story "Runaround," where a robot has to go out and retrieve something in order for the humans that it's paired with to survive but it gets to a point where it's sensing there's a possible threat to its own existence between it and the goal. It can't go back because it can't disobey the order can't go forward because it has to protect its own existence and it's basically stuck there because the humans are in danger as well and so unless something changes, it's stuck at that that even potential between those forces. Alec Yeah, yeah, and that that that's a fun idea right? and it's it's It's fun to talk about it. Um, and you know it's not always fun for me to read those stories. Um, you know because the I just say like they really exist only to deliver that little idea. Um and there isn't a lot of there. Otherwise yeah. Seth Um, yeah, yeah, one of my favorite stories in I, Robot is "Liar" the one where there's, and this is very important in the Foundation Series, where there's a robot that has ESP essentially right mind reading. Um and that becomes important in in some of the later foundation books. But um I have a really hard time with it just because Asimov isn't great at writing female characters. Susan Calvin is a really cool character and this story makes her look kind of pathetic. But but I still do love it. So I'm I'm really torn. Alec Yeah I mean Susan Calvin is someone I like the idea of her more than the way she's written. You know in many of these stories. Um, and I think it's worth mentioning. You know Asimov was not good at writing women. Um you know and he at this stage especially he had not spent a lot of time around women. Um and he was this, yeah, again, like I keep saying this that this kind of like shy guy who um, you know was hoping to to like go on dates and never really did until he got married um and it shows like like and it's not until like you know, maybe the Mule era that you start to see women and who are you know, even halfway engaging in these stories. Seth Okay, so other Asimov 101 titles? Alec Well, ah "Nightfall" is another one that I think is worth mentioning because this is also um, along with you know I, Robot and Foundation, that "Nightfall" is the third sort of major ah story that um Asimov develops with Campbell. Um, so that famously Campbell um, calls in Asimov to the office one day and he reads Asimov a quote from um, an essay by Ralph Waldo Emerson and if you give me give me one second I can find the exact quote. Ah. Here it is so the line is um "If the stars should appear one night in 1000 years how would men believe and adore and preserve for many generations the resemblance of the city of God which had been shown," and so Campbell reads that line to Asimov and he says what do you think would happen. If men were to see the stars for the first time in 1000 years and Asimov says I don't know and then Campbell says I think they would go mad I want you to write a story about that. Um, so you know and they then they discussed like it sort of the the various reasons that you know maybe the stars wouldn't appear for 1000 years. Alec And Asimov heads back home and writes you know this story which you know is actually very readable I think it's actually readable in ways that maybe some of the the other stories we aren't we've talked about so far are not um, it's later voted the best science fiction story of all time which I think is ah, bit of an overstatement but you know clearly it was a huge hit it kind of established Asimov as um, a major writer you know at a time when that did not seem likely and you know I mean it's It's written in this like very readable kind of fast paced style. That's fun. You know at the ending is really cool. Um, but again, this is a story that Campbell essentially assigned to Asimov and I don't to like underrate how hard it is and even Asimov later says it's true that Campbell gave me the idea. But then I had to go and actually write the thing. Ah so you know and yeah, it definitely reflects like his talent and imagination. But um, you know again like this this sort of what what I think even Asimov later calls this symbiotic partnership they had ah you know results in like these 3 major stories or series. Ah, but before Asimov is even 25 years old um so again, like if you're if you're interested in like that sort of period and kind of how this editor and this writer could collaborate. Um, yeah, might follow is a great example of of what can result Seth Yeah, yeah, and I'll say for anybody who wants to read that if you pick up Nightfall and Other Stories, there's a good intro to it from Asimov where you know he kind of objects to it being his greatest story ever because it's quite early. Um, but yeah, that's a good one. Seth One skillful thing in that one I think is setting it so close to the actual event that's coming where where they're in this system some kind of chaotic system where they have essentially had full daylight for 1000 years and and no one has seen the night sky before no one seen the stars and they all believe when they see the stars they will all go mad, they will all die um and not just because they see the stars but because the darkness um, and yeah, it's that's a good one we we actually covered that one on Take Me To Your Reader not too long ago because there's two very bad film adaptations of it. Alec Okay, yes, um, yeah I mean yeah, it's interesting the way it's structured because it is almost set in real time you know, ah and it kind of like cuts between characters. You know it's a fun story and I think I think it's not a premise in itself that you would obviously end up with a classic if you wrote it you know for Campbell's specifications I think Asimov was the one who kind of found the way into that story to make it fun and and readable. Seth Yeah, yeah, okay so I think you did you have a couple more titles for Asimov 101? Alec Yeah I mean you want to skip ahead a little bit. Um, you know I do want to talk about a few stories that are are I think just worth reading in themselves. Seth Um, yeah, go for it. Alec You know, um more more so than maybe ah, some of the ones that are mostly of historical interest. Um, so "The Last Question" I think is a pretty good one. Ah, this is probably Asimov's favorite of his own stories. Um, and I think you know he famously said you know reading it. You know it was the best science fiction story I'd ever written and maybe anyone had ever written. Um and it is a really cool story like I um, you know I want to give it away the ending because that's kind of the whole point. But. Seth Yeah, it is the whole point. Yeah. Alec You know it is a very exciting story told on the largest possible scale. Ah you know it it spans I'm going to say millions of years probably of ah narrative time. Um and it explores this question of like yeah so so what do you What do you do. As the universe starts to wind down if you're if you're a so civilization isn't there like an inherent end end point to how long you can survive just because entropy will eventually you know increase to the point where there's no nothing could happen again. Um, and that's a good question. You know it's a very It's a very compelling question and he comes up with like a very interesting resolution which I encourage people to seek out. Seth Yeah, yeah, yeah I love that one and I don't I don't want to spoil it because it is. It's a relatively short story and it's ah it's great. Yeah, any other ones you want to highlight? Alec The last one I wanted to mention was um, The Bicentennial Man which I think it's probably the best Robot story he wrote um and you know and again like this is a story that to me testifies as to how much he grew as a writer because you could hear the the style of this story. You know as I've always said that he tried to write various straightforward prose. You know it was not meant to be stylish or beautiful just very you know matter of fact and and functional. But you know he he clearly advances enormously as a writer over the course of his career and if you compare the writing in Bicentennial Man with writing and the early Robot stories. It's it's obvious that he he grew in ways that um you know I don't think even he acknowledged. But um, you know like like those those late stories are are very well written. Seth Yeah, yeah, and you know he he touches on anti-robot prejudice in a lot of the stories and in a lot of the series right in certainly in the Caves of Steel, Elijah Bailey stories and R Daneel Oliva. And Bicentennial Man right? How how can a robot be accepted as a human um and that yeah, it's a good one. Alec Yeah yeah, so again, it's a good premise but it's also like really well written and I think you know the Robot character the center of that Story is very um I know it's a trade moving. It's It's very. It's a very evocative story in ways that I don't think as I'm off was was even capable of doing earlier on. Seth All right ready to move on to Advanced Asimov? Alec Let's do it, yeah. Seth Ok so what do you have for me in Advanced Asimov? I know one of them Alec Well, let's get to it. I mean, I think there's enough to talk about with the End of Eternity, that I'd like to start there. Seth Okay Alec Um, yeah so Asimov um did not start writing novels until um, after the war. And this is part because there wasn't really ah like a market for original science fiction novels you know during the time when he was first starting out and the the first 2 novels he writes are not that great like um, you know things like Currents of Space. Um, The Stars, Like Dust, you know it's actually very hard to recommend those even for historical interest at least. Seth Yeah I've tried them I think I read one of them and then I then I petered out on that series. Alec To me they are not very well done. So it takes him a little bit of time to figure out how to write novels. Um, I think you mentioned the Caves of Steel and The Naked Sun are robot novels that are actually really good. You know and they're very clever, um, mystery stories actually ah you know they do a good job of telling like a mystery story in a science fiction framework which is actually like a pretty tricky thing sometimes um so you know even there you're starting to see like him get better and then jumping ahead a little bit to the end, he writes The Gods Themselves, which I think is actually a really good novel I think some people disagree about that one. But I think it's actually very well-written and interesting. Um, in ways that again, we're not true of his earlier work. Um, but I think you know the novel I would recommend if you're just going to read Asimov novel is ah The End of Eternity which is not one of his better known books because it doesn't really fit into any other um, ah chronology Seth Um, sort of does. Alec Yeah, um. I mean I think there are hints I think there are hints later on that it's part of the Foundation Universe. Um, but you know it's not an obvious Robot story. It's not an obvious Foundation Story. It's kind of out there on its own. Um, but I think it's actually this like really interesting. Ah well-written novel full of ideas. That kind of play with some of the concepts from his other work in ways that I actually think are really um, interesting. Seth Yeah, so let's yeah, let's spend a little bit of time talking about this and kind of entice people to read it. So how how would you kind of give a a quick elevator pitch for it. Yeah. Alec I think I think you've actually like read it more recently than than I have so so do want to give your version of ah like a plot summary. Seth Yeah I mean it reminds me of some some more recent stuff like This is How You Lose the Time War because it it involves Eternals that are part of this organization called Eternity and they travel along the timeline, and conduct exchanges and trades between different eras of humanity trying to minimize suffering and in order to do that, they make these little micro changes and then keep track of you know exactly what will happen from that and it reminds me a little bit of psychohistory. Alec Right? Which which will I I want to like get to later I think that that's a good connection. Seth Yeah. And where you have this this character Andrew Harlan who who takes on a trainee and finds out. There's a bit of a bootstrap paradox going on. Um, and I he doesn't become aware of that right away but just the idea of the and some of the language that's used in it like um, traveling upwhen and downwhen. Um I I think it's just great. Um I I enjoy when language oddities make sense and and that very much did here. Alec Yeah I mean you you mentioned like other works that you know reminds you of I actually watched Tenet you know like Chris Nolan's Tenet recently and I actually you know it kind of remind me a bit of this novel this idea of this like um, you know this like cold war between the past and the future. Like between different points in the timeline I think is is is implicit in Asimov's premise and um and you you know correctly that you know this does remind you a little bit of Foundation. It reminds you a little bit of psychohistory and and I think that's really interesting because I don't want to like give away the ending but at the end the main character essentially concludes that Eternity is a bad thing that you know these guys are are psychopaths who are trying to um, exercise this control over how civilizations evolve and I think the difference is that with Eternity, because there's time travel involved you can kind of see the consequences. You can see within 1 person's lifetime. You can see what effects these changes have on societies in a way that you really can't with Foundation can solve one direction you know with Foundation and to me that's so interesting because it does kind of get at this like weirdness with psychoistory, that I think Asimov is aware of that who are these guys right? like like who are these guys who call who like take it upon themselves to decide. What's best for the rest of us. You know what? what is the the desirable direction because you know in Foundation. It's like pretty clear cut. It's like you have this like awful dark age interregnum after the empire falls. But you know like it's not always clear right? It's always always clear like what is the correct direction for society to take and the idea that you have, assume that you are the best person qualified to decide this for other people, you know as as of notes is like a little bit disturbing. Seth Yeah, yeah, it's it's the I mean it's It's almost a theodicy question right? Um, yeah about ah in a religious context right of of well why would you do these things you know, um and what is the cost of it. Why would you do these right? Yeah because make, because making these changes you you make entire realities disappear and and that's where um, in this book Harlan meets a woman and then realizes that there's a coming change that's going to erase her existence. Um and that really puts into sharp relief exactly what the the cost of minimizing suffering. Alec Yeah I think that ambivalence is really interesting because um, you you don't really see it in the Foundation series as much. Um, you know I haven't read the the later novels in a while. But um, you know 1 thing my my theory about psycho history is that this was just essentially Campbell's idea that Asimov accepted because it meant he could publish these stories. Um, but I don't think Asimov himself was ever that comfortable with the idea of psycho history which is kind of funny because it's so central to the Foundation series. But if you read like the later novels this is like Foundation's Edge and like the novels he wrote after Campbell was gone you know psychohistory actually ended up playing a smaller part in the story over time you know it kind of brings in more of Asimov's own ideas and second history is downplayed a little bit I've never seen Asimov like say this explicitly but I do like to think that Eternity is him kind of working through some of his own qualms about you know the ways psychohistory would would function and practice. Seth I always warn people if you're going to read the Foundation series. It's it's going to introduce the concept of we're going to be able to reduce that interregnum to 1000 years but the books will only cover like 500 years so you're never going to get to that thousand years Alec Right, yeah Seth And there are reasons. Alec Yeah I mean in some ways you know Eternity is like a better candidate for adaptation I would say I mean the Foundation series the TV series that Apple did did recently um to me is like a you know it's just like very challenging premise for a tv show because you know it's it's very hard to say okay, we're going to tell the story spanning millennia um, but if you have time travel. You can kind of do these things and see the consequences you know and in a way that I think is actually more amenable to a TV series or a movie. Um, so I would I would actually love to see it like a TV ah series based on this book. Seth Yeah, yeah, it would be fascinating, especially once you get into that kind of bootstrap paradox stuff that you have and you know at at some point Harlan becomes very ambivalent about the existence of Eternity is this a good thing. Do we want this to actually be a thing. What will happen if Eternity went away might that be better for humanity. Alec Yeah, yeah, which is not a question that you really see addressed in the Foundation series. Seth Right. I was surprised when when it got to sort of a. It's not even really an oblique reference I Think if you read the Foundation novels there's, there's a point where you're like oh okay, that's there's the tie in because I think Asimov did go to some lengths to tie all of his fiction together at some point. Alec Yeah, so if I recall correctly there is um, a implication that Eternity has done things that lead to the creation of an all human galaxy right? Um, which is pretty interesting right? because you know that that is a very distinctive feature of the Foundation series like there are no aliens and the the sort of historical reason for this is that Campbell had this like weird thing where the alien always had to lose and and and the alien always had to be shown to be less intelligent than the human. And Asimov thought that was like a real limitation on other other kinds of stories you could tell and so he decides to just avoid the issue altogether by writing stories that are either about robots or that take place in a universe where there aren't other species or other intelligent species. But it is interesting right? and and and so I like the idea that you can kind of justify this within like the logic of these stories by saying oh well, there's this other reason why there would be a galaxy with only humans. Seth Yeah, yeah, very cool. Anything else for, do you want to talk about anything else about the end of eternity or you want to move on to something else. Alec I think I'm good I'm glad we managed to to cover it and because again it's it's a book that I think where people would would enjoy if they knew about it Seth Yeah yeah, and part of the challenge here is not to talk too much about it. Um, because because I feel like this is the one we're saying Okay, if you've read some Asimov and you want to you want to read something a little more advanced then I I don't want to spoil it right? And I'll just say I thought it was tremendous I I really and I thought it was very well plotted, kept me guessing. Alec Yeah yeah, which is not something that you tend to associate with Asimov I think the the density of the ideas is is actually really fun because often Asimov will have like 1 good idea per story and this one has a bunch of them. So I thought that was kind of fun. Seth Yeah I thought there was an interesting relationship between between Harlan and I can't remember his boss's name and there's more than 1 boss and there's this this sort of interdepartmental rivalries and and stuff where he gets suspicious and I thought is this reflecting on his relationship with Campbell um, but I don't know. Alec Yeah I mean it. It's been a while but it's it's quite possible that there there definitely are like Campbell surrogates if you look closely enough at some of these stories. Seth Yeah yeah, anything else for Advanced Asimov any places you would recommend people go if they've read Foundation. They've read I, Robot. They've read the Robot series. Alec Um, will this include nonfiction sure so I do want to underline his nonfiction? Seth Sure Alec Okay because he actually was better known for for years as a nonfiction writer. Um, he became kind of famous as a science popularizer ah to the mainstream in a way that he was not famous outside Science fiction circles as a fiction writer. Um because like number one like his books on on science and history hold up I think really? well um, you know I'm working on ah like a project now that involves like a lot of physics and you know whenever I'm confused by something or I need like an explanation I'm like did Asimov right about this at any point. Because you know that will be a a clearly written engaging account of this subject. You know, no no matter what it is and that is a huge deal like that is not easy to to be as good a nonfiction writer as he was um so I recommend those and I also recommend his his memoirs. Seth Um, okay yeah. Alec Um, you know. So if you if you go online and you know look for used copies. You know there are a few different volumes. But the ones I'd recommend are a couple of books. Um that he published in the 70s ah one's called In Memory Yet Green the other is And Joy Still Felt and these are two like phone book size memoirs I mean I I mean my my copies are like I'm looking at them right now they're like read to pieces because um, you know Asimov essentially had a diary and it allowed him to write these memoirs that seemed to cover every day of his life and, and again it has things like you know him taking his car into the garage. You know like all this stuff that is like very mundane is running errands you know and because he didn't have the most eventful life by some measures he was just like writing all the time. Um. But they're incredibly fun if you're interested in like science fiction history. There are tons of good stories about other writers from that period about Campbell um, and just like the life of being a writer ah to me as someone who wants to be a writer you know has like kind of had these ambitions for a long time. It's it's really engaging to see him talk about how he built that career step by step to the point where he could write about whatever he wanted. Seth Um, yeah I think um I'm trying to think if in Nightfall and Other Stories are there's some place some anthology of his that I've read that has sort of excerpts from this memoir. Alec Well most of his um collections include ah autobiographical prefaces. So so you know those are really fun to seek out like there's a book called The Early Asimov that has a ton of autobiographical writing in it. Seth Um, okay, maybe that's what I'm thinking of. Alec Um, a lot of the reprints of like his earlier novels will include a forward where he talks about his um processes and kind of like you know, kind of where he was in his life when he wrote these stories. Um, that stuff is great I really I really find that stuff fascinating and he is a um. Again, like for some of the reasons why maybe his not his fiction can be a little bit less engaging, his nonfiction is incredibly readable. Ah because it is very straightforward. It's very conversational. Um, you know you kind of feel like you're part of this club I guess that's the way makes makes me feel. It's like you were part of like that world of writers from the 30s who knew each other and hung out and had interesting drama. You know like this this this very conversational tone where they pulls you in and makes that that um, period seem very vivid. Seth Yeah I I think people may underrate how collaborative things were at that time because you you know you look at today and we have fandom on the internet and so we can through Twitter and Discord and all these other places we can interact with with like-minded people. At that time it was a slower pace right? because you I think Asimov started off writing letters into the editor right? Alec Yes, yeah I mean he was a he was a fan first right? which is like to me an important part of that story that that he was a fan writing letters eventually getting involved with fan clubs kind of in parallel to his development as a writer. Seth Yeah, yeah. Um, any of the science titles in particular that you would recommend just because I I think that sounds fun. Alec Um, the one that I remember reading you know when I was younger is called A Choice of Catastrophes and it's a book about different ways in the which the world could end. Um you know and one of them, like one chapter talks about the entropy problem that he he talks about in the "The Last Question," but from a more like a more scientific point of view and um I would have been probably in like middle school when I read that book and yeah, no yeah I mean I and this is like one out of hundreds and I could have ended up, you know, probably getting in like a used bookstore. Um I just got his ah book on the slide rule. ah, which is really fun I have a slide rule and I haven't gotten around to learning how to use it yet. But when I do I will I will turn to him. Um, and he is He has these jokebooks that are really fun. It's just like him like writing down all the jokes he can think of and then having a little introduction you know to explain why they're funny. You're like you know the the um period in his life where you know he that he associates with with that joke and that the jokes themselves are like fine. They're not always that great. But the little asides and notes are are really fun. Seth What's the level of offensiveness in the jokes? Alec Um I think it's it's been a while since I read them I imagine that some are a little bit dirty. Um, you know he famously was like really good at writing limericks that were like a little bit off color. Um. Seth Okay. Alec And the thing I should mention and this seems like a good segue into this this point because I was thinking about you know he wrote of this parody book called the um the Sensuous Dirty Old Man which again not not that great but reflects a fact about Asimov that I should mention which is that you know he was a serial groper and harasser of women. Seth Yeah. Alec Um, which, you know, it has to be said you know he he probably touched or kissed hundreds of women over the years at conventions and fan gatherings and other events. Um, and also in private in ways that are really awful. Um, and to me, that's that's part of the story too because as I say here is a guy who was this like nerdy lonely guy as a young man who was very awkward around women who then later on in middle age ends up being famous in this you know, kind of particular community that gives him power over women and he uses that power in this very offensive way that um you know was kind of dismissed it was it was it was seen as this like kind of like quirky funny thing he did and it's not until recently that you know people are starting to say oh that was really bad and it really you know made this women feel uncomfortable or unsafe and it probably affected, you know, how welcome they felt, you know, within you know that world for a long time. So you know I can't talk about Asimov without at least mentioning that aspect of his story. Seth Yeah, yeah, it's definitely. It's especially like post Me, Too, right? that this is this is very topical and important to talk about. Alec Especially yes, this is very topical. Yeah, so and again I try to mention this because it is part of his legacy. Unfortunately. Seth Yeah, yeah, there's always the difficulty of separating the art from the artist. Seth Let's see anything else for Advanced Asimov or we can, we can kind of move into summing up. Alec I think I think I've covered everything I I wish to talk about So so yeah, let's let's let's move on. Seth Okay, cool and you know I um when I originally reached out to you. You know obviously one idea was to do an episode on Campbell. But um, but you suggested we start with Asimov and then maybe we can circle back and do Campbell another time. Alec Yes, another problematic figure of enormous importance. Um yes, any time I I'm a Campbell guy like Campbell's kind of like where I began my journey as a science fiction historian and and biographer. So I have I have plenty to say about him I think. Seth Yeah I think one of the interesting things to talk about with him would be. You know the places where he put his thumb on the scale right? Where he was like no you can't have a nice ending for "The Cold Equations." She has to die you know or um I can't remember if that was him who mandated that but you know and in just in other fiction where he he had certain things that he wanted to see in his fiction and if you didn't have it, "Eh, I'm not interested in that story." Alec Um, yeah, you know and you see this with with Dune you know toward the end you know this is whole I mean for like 30 years let's say you know there are all these like inflection points where Campbell ah, you know had certain preconceived ideas about what science fiction was or what is what a story should do that that did kind of influence the direction that these careers took. Seth Yeah, I'm not sure I'll keep that in just because you know that's maybe as a teaser for for a future episode. Although I have I have so many of these on the books. At this point that you know I'll get back to you sometime next year Alec Uh, that works fine actually. Seth Ok, well so I think we're wrapped on Asimov I definitely recommend people check him out and when I did I did a survey a while back, I did an Ask Me Anything episode and somebody asked about um you know do I think that golden age science fiction will continue to be read in the future. You know, fast forward 50 or 100 years and my thinking is that, it's influential enough that people will always want to go back and see where the genre came from but I I thought I would ask you about it as well. Alec I mean I think he'll be read in the way any of you know genre fiction is read from the past I think certain stories and authors will endure. Um, you know I think like Campbell's "Who Goes There?" which you know became The Thing. Um, I think that's a story that will endure. I think a lot of Heinlein will hold up really well, um, if anything can and like you know a few stories here and there that stand out for other reasons I don't know if um, you know because because even like even now right during, at this moment, it's unclear to me whether Asimov is still being read by 20 year olds um you know is he just in a name in the way that I'll say like um, Doc Smith or someone you know it was just a name for people of an earlier generation who at the time was seen as this canonical writer. Um, so I don't know it's very hard to say there's new stuff being produced all the time and you know it tends to drive out the old stuff and then get driven out in turn itself. But no I think there there are going to be stories that are going to be of interest for as long as people are reading science fiction. It's just very hard to know in advance what those stories will be. Seth Yeah, yeah, cool. Well let's so before we sign off anything that you're working on. Alec So um, I'm currently working on a biography of um, the physicist Luis W Alvarez um so I don't know if you've seen Oppenheimer yet. Seth Yeah Alec So when Oppenheimer there's a scene where ah Oppenheimer sees this guy running out of a barber shop. He says Alvarez what's going on. And Alvarez has just seen a newspaper article about um you know the first confirmed splitting of the atom. Um, and then Oppenheimer proves why that can't be done and Lawrence says but come next door you know Alvarez has done it and and so you have this like cool scene where like Alvarez shows Oppenheimer you know this scope you know to show. Ah you know this reaction and Oppenheimer realizes immediately that it could be a bomb and then Alvarez disappears. You never see him again. Maybe in the background a few times. Um, but that's that's who I'm writing about because he is an incredibly interesting guy like. More interesting than Oppenheimer we're going to say in a lot of ways. Um because you know he he clearly had a huge role in the Manhattan project he went on to be the scientific observer at the bombing of Hiroshima so he was there. Um, went on to do important work in particle physics win a Nobel Prize and then you know later on he did incredible work on things like the the JFK assassination and ah the um, the extinction of the dinosaurs because because he was the scientist who came up with the asteroid impact theory that this is what wiped out the dinosaurs um during the K-T Event and this is when he was retired essentially and you know not a paleontologist just someone who came across this evidence that he was able to correctly I think interpret. Um, so yes, just a very smart guy this like kind of freelance detective scientist type who just did cool things for 50 years um so yeah, so I'm writing his story now and and again like I was saying before this attempt to move from science fiction to someone like ah Fuller who is from a science fiction hero in the real world. To Alvarez who in some ways was the real deal like like you know you talk about The Competent Man and and one one sort of interesting thread and and Astounding my book is that all these guys saw themselves as Competent Men of the of the kind they had spent their lives writing about. Alec You know they thought they were that hero and they thought that during World War II and afterward it leads all this weird stuff of Scientology. You know it's just that kind of strange thing where you you think you are more qualified maybe than you actually are to solve these problems and the way that a science fiction Hero can. And and Fuller is similar I think his solutions are often flawed um whereas Alvarez solved real problems in a huge range of fields for years and um, again like also a complex figure with you know a you know sort of a Interesting personality that made him difficult to work with sometimes but ah I think a genius and kind of a you know, Competent Man in in a way that um I think was was genuine and and and you know trying to get at what what it means to be that figure for real in real life. Seth Um, nice, any due date for that? Any expectation of when when it'll be published? Alec Ideally in 2025 ah I would like to get it out by like August 2025 um if ah, it could be a little bit later than that I'm guessing but I'm currently going through the Alvarez papers and learning all this physics as I mentioned with ah Asimov's help um, and ah going to start the actual writing pretty soon. So yeah we'll see but it'll be like a 2 plus year project. Seth Okay, what's your what's your ah educational background training? Do you you have a science degree or or just a science hobbyist. Alec Uh, science hobbyist, I actually studied classics in college so you know Latin and Greek which has not been incredibly relevant to my my chosen profession so far. But yeah so this is interesting too right? Like because I'm not a scientist and I have ended up writing about these you know, fairly technical topics over time and it's that that's been part of the challenge. It's part of the point like I'm I'm trying to learn these things myself. You know that's kind of why I enjoy writing these books? Um, but you know definitely having like good readers like good um experts I can consult helps a lot. Trying to minimize you know the mistakes I make but but yeah, but again some like Asimov you know like popularizations of these ideas are hugely important and and valuable because you know these are ideas that should be part of people's lives right? and I think that's what Asimov realized I think that was his goal was to become, you know, the world's best explainer for people like me. Seth Okay, well I think I think that's pretty much zoomed out Asimov in the books. So Alec I want to thank you again so much for doing this! Alec Yeah I had a great time. This was a really good conversation. Seth So where can people find you? Alec Ah so the name is Alec Nevala-Lee which is pretty distinctive. So if you Google me, you will find me on Twitter. Occasionally I have a blog that is not updated very very often. But you know more to the point you know my email address is is there. So if people want to reach out I love hearing from readers or fans. So please um, feel free to contact me. Seth Yeah, and I've been on podcasts a couple times with with Alec hosted by David Agranoff, we we did I was on that panel discussion where I felt like I'm the odd man out here just a podcaster with with Gary K Wolf and you and Lisa Yaszek um and and then we talked about that Clifford Simak story with David as well and that was that was fun Space Sportsball. Alec Yeah, yeah, anytime I get this kind of invite I'm delighted because um, you know I have moved on in some ways to other projects. But um, this is kind of like I think the book the work for which I'll be best known and and so I'm always really happy to talk about it. Seth Yeah, yeah, so I'll encourage people to to check out any links I put in the show notes for Alec check out his books Astounding is excellent and Inventor of the Future is also great. Seth So all right, well thanks Alec will talk again down the line right. Alec Okay, great. Thanks so much. Seth Bye. Seth Alrighty everybody I hope you enjoyed that discussion with Alec about Isaac Asimov and of course ranging on to other topics that are of interest to Alec. Make sure you check out any of his links in the show notes read Astounding. It's really terrific. Great overview of the kind of history of the golden age of science fiction not overlooking any faults in in the various authors at the time. Um, really really good stuff I can say that the audible version is a very good audio production and that's how I took it in. Seth Um, so I'm curious to hear from you. What you think of this kind of episode I'm already planning to do more of them. So if you just think that I should stop. Well, you can maybe keep that to yourself. But if you liked it, let me know and. I would welcome suggestions for other authors if you are someone who is very very very much up on an author's overall work. Um, you know Alec told me when when we were emailing back and forth. He's like I haven't read all of his nonfiction and so you know I can't speak authoritatively to all of that. But you don't need to be you know a graduate- level expert in an author if there's somebody that you've just read extensively and you think you can talk about why they should be read some basics and some more advanced topics, great, reach out to me. I have these booked already for Bradbury I have one for Philip K Dick, I tentatively have one for Heinlein as well. Um I may have somebody for Le Guin actually I have 2 volunteers. Yeah but but I would love to cover, you know, a lot of the golden age authors I'd love to cover some newer authors as well. And so if you want to to do that then reach out to me I think it's a little more of a difficult thing to do. Seth Um, ok I think that's going to do it for this time. So thank you so much for listening and I'll talk to you next time bye.