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Humanistic on the world episode 26 rest in peace mom

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Welcome to the episode of humanistic on the world. I am Dustin and Joining me is

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Hello, all right, so

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Been a while last you heard from me was May 31 when I said we're actually I didn't say we were taking a break

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I acknowledged we were taking a break

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Since the last real episode was April 25. Yeah

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And now that the

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Situation that resulted in that has come to a close. I am more comfortable talking about it more detail

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It feels like a lifetime ago

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We've had preschool graduation Memorial Day weekend that summer almost coming gone. It feels like yeah

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And this episode is going to be heavy. I

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Am using chapters

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so if you're using a podcast app to listen to this the supports chapters and a

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section is too heavy for you to handle

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skip to the next chapter

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before you skip the whole episode and so

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For those of you that have been around for a while

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you may recall the

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September 2016

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12-hour stream of thong we did to raise money for the leukemia and lymphoma society 12 hours

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Did you do the full 12 hours, or did you just contribute an hour to the 12 hours? I?

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Think I had a one-hour break. Yeah. Oh god. Okay

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It's as bad as I remember it then. Yeah. Yeah, yeah

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I I made a point of being there for as much as I possibly could I took breaks, but I was there for this is before the day of

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Children. Yes. Yes

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Just over a year before Kylie was born

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But with that that team and that wasn't the first year we did light the night

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the the team that we had was the Treasure Valley Coalition of Reason team and

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our honored hero was my mom who

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survived Hodgkin's lymphoma and

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round 1980 1981 that was the

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You know Hodgkin's lymphoma was the earliest form of cancer

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identified it has had the highest survival rate

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basically forever because

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It's the first one to be really identified like that study really helped

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It's the one that Hank Green science communicator youtuber podcaster has right now and is

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Not particularly worried like he's not all that worried about it because it's it's stressful

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It's a really high survival rate makes a hell of sick, but the treatments the treatments do make you come out of it

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the other end is just That year or two of your life is gone

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Yeah, now at the time my mom had it back in the baby days. It was

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You know a little bit different

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chemo and radiate chemos were way more brutal than they are now and

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the dosing was Way more frequent. The radiation

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Was so much precise dosing has just dumped it. Yeah and see what happens

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the radiation was

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62nd burst chin to toe front and back five days a week for three months straight

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And she did that a couple times

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She survived barely

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She was told she would be sterile had me a couple years later not barely sterile which

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resulted in me growing up believing that my birth was a miracle

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Which made it harder to leave religion. Yeah

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uh the cancer had

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lingering effects on her like

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She despite the fact that she wasn't completely sterile

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She was all but sterile and had to start on estrogen replacement therapy

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very early to avoid

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But periamontopausal at what like 38 or something

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30 something effectively she would have carried on effectively it would have been from 32. Yeah

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Yeah, that would suck and

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Then a puzzle rough probably at about 36. I was 30. She was 35 when I was born

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and so the the risk of

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osteoporosis was a

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Huge huge concern. Uh, she had her thyroid was fried her sweat glands roll fried

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um it had

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It had lingering effects, but she had a really good life after that

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And then she got to her 60s

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In fact, she stopped going to any survivor things, right? Yeah, it was lasted everybody

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There was nobody else like she was going to survival of survivor events

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There was nobody there who had survived cancer more than five years

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And when she was at 30 years

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Well, it's starting to feel awkward that was resulting in a lot of survivor guilt

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Yeah, yeah And the man I can't imagine literally can't imagine. Yeah, the doctors had told her that

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Absolute at the best she could expect she would survive

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into her 60s She made it to 74. Yeah, which is incredible

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But in her 60s

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The bone degradation resulted in the lower part of her back

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collapsing and that

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Severely impacted her mobility And she weakened

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Not even not a wheelchair though, but not a wheelchair. She even went hiking with us on a couple of games. Oh, yeah

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She hiked all over, uh, and you have good genes. Yeah, she

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She was She was smart in that she figured out

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What she could do and maintain

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The ability to feel her toes and what made her legs go numb and the things that made her legs go numb. She stopped doing

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Lifting over 20 pounds was a big one. Okay, which meant no lifting children

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Yeah, which I know I remember

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Her making a comment when kylie was born

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She wanted to hold kylie, but she was never gonna be able to pick her up

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Yeah Because if she did

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You know by the time a toddler is at walking age, they're not 20 pounds, but they're getting there

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She never would have been able to pick her up. Mm-hmm

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She might have had a 10 pound limit. I don't remember exactly what it was. It was really light

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Hold a baby, but she couldn't pick one up. I remember that. Yeah

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and then

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She started having About five years ago. She started having some heart problems and

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eventually got into the doctor and they found

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99 blockage and did emergency triple bypass

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The blockage was from scar tissue from the radiation and chemo. Yeah

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From that point on

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I was waiting for what's the next landmine. Yeah

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in fact You did an episode

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Either on the day that she had the surgery or the day after

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And you talked about how weird that was yeah that you knew that her heart had stopped. Yeah, and uh, what's next kind of thing. Yep. And so then

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August of 2021

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She started having gallbladder pain

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Which I mean line up right at that point my sister had had gallbladder pain my dad had gallbladder

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It seemed like this was like the hottest craze So everybody's having gallbladder pain

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My mom came close in her 50s to getting her gallbladder removed

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Yeah It resolved, but that was a lingering thing that as soon as that starts hurting again, they'd go ahead and take it out

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It started hurting again and

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This was august september And october 2021 there was a major covid outbreak where she lived

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Yeah, she couldn't yeah, so they couldn't get imaging. She was it was completely shut down. No imaging

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It took forever to get her into an operating room and when the doctor got in there

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He found a tumor literally instead of image because there was so little imaging available

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They decided to do surgery first. Yep. Like wow the surgeon went in just to see what was going on

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The surgeon went and blind

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the assumption was

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It was a really bad gallbladder attack. The gallbladder needed to be removed

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He got in there and he couldn't find the gallbladder because there was a tumor there instead. Yeah

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And so he took a biopsy did an exploratory to see how far the tumor had gone because again

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It was going to be a couple months past that before

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The covid outbreak subsided and they could go 24 hours without imaging a covid patient

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No MRIs no cats. They were finally able to start doing imaging

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It was amazing how it was we were all worried about the hospitals collapsing

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In so many regards. I never thought about the effects of not having imaging. Yeah

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So all the radio techs out there man hurt you

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That was a rough time because the way the imaging equipment worked and those rooms worked

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They had to go at least 24 hours with no covid patients

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And every imager was being used at least

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at enough of a pace to check lung function and whatnot for covid patients

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so They she got the cancer diagnosis

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off of the biopsy

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It took longer to get to

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the imaging to actually get the full diagnosis

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of intra hepatic bile duct cancer

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That's not the proper name for it. The proper name is really hard to pronounce

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uh It's scientific enough that if you want to look it up, you can find it

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If not liver, but it's liver adjacent it well intra hepatic means within the liver

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No liver. It's it's a cancer of the bile duct lining

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Like the epithelial cells that line the bile ducts can become cancerous

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Just like any other cell in the body can

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And if it starts within the liver, it's different than if it starts around the gallbladder

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Which is different than if it's actually the gallbladder itself

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Versus it's different if it's the common bile duct below the gallbladder and the prognosis

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Oncologists need to be specific. Yeah, the specificity is

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is intense Uh intra hepatic

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Which my mom had is the most aggressive and has the

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lowest survival rates

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Big factor is it's the hardest to operate on because if it starts outside of the liver

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It can attack a different organ and cause symptoms that result in it getting diagnosed

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When it's small enough that they can do surgery

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By the time Her's got diagnosed and they got a full picture of it

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They couldn't surgically remove it because they would have had to take too much of her liver

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You know, we all learn in elementary school or middle school that you can live with what 51 percent of your liver or something

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I think it's about 20 Actually, um, I did that was the i'm telling you. Oh, yeah. Yes. Okay. Elementary school

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Like you can live with half slightly more than half of your littever

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Um plus or minus so like a percentage but you need to have half of it

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And this was that's fair. This won't this went over that

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They would have had to remove something like 80 percent of her liver

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So that was no good chance of her surviving the surgery whether or not she would have liver function was zero

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Yeah, they already knew that with her heart history that there wasn't any surgical option anyway

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I remember us holding on to the hope there for a little while, but I kind of

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We all knew that that wasn't going to be an option

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With your back surgery the surgeon refused to operate. No

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Uh surgeons no surgeon has ever liked the risk that my mom presented the the fact that one was willing to do it to

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Figure out what was going on with her gallbladder was Saying something about how bad that was

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The prognosis was terrible and her previous history with cancer limited options

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Uh Any kind of generalized radiation wasn't available because as her oncologist put it

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She'd already had a true nobles worth of radiation

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It was the only early days. They didn't know what they were doing

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Like I said, they kind of dumped a bucket of radiation on her and hope for the best

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It worked out thanks to her previous history with chemo the two chemos they tried actually three chemos they tried

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She didn't tolerate. Yeah

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There was some really cool pretty experimental treatment. She got to do one was a

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Uranium 91

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beads that were

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injected into the

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Actual blood supply of the tumor those did had the most effect they

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eliminated the pain that she had

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and slowed the growth of the tumor now one thing I have to say for the covid pandemic is that

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If you're a pulmonologist, you're booked. You're you were at working

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18 hour days 16 hour days every day for months oncologists were bored out of their minds

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Um, so apparently because the people at ohsu

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Jumped on her case. She had professionals from all over the pacific northwest helping her in this her specific case

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I will not be surprised if her name is chose up on a research paper here coming up soon because

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They had seen very little of what she was going through there. They're

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bile deck cancers are There's about 8,000 a year in the u.s

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Sounds like a lot, but it's not that's yeah, that's that's there's a couple in each state

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More than a few if you're in texas or or california because they're big states

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But in the northwest there's there's not many uh the y90 was really cool

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She got to do that And it provided benefit

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That was great. She did an immunotherapy

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And these immunotherapies are really cool because and super promising

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It's an area where there's a lot of research going in where they are targeting

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immune regulator

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molecules that tumors

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hijack to get the immune system to ignore them and if you can block that

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that that regulation pathway

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the immune system

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Can have a better chance of knocking out the tumor

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She was on it two months

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It did not change

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Anything with the tumor, but it did end up killing her adrenal gland

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Yeah, which this was this was a gonna go. Yeah, and this was a particular kind of of medication that

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uh, though It was a near

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basically if you survived long enough after taking it which

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Nobody survived very long after taking it, but if you survived long enough

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You would have some kind of autoimmune disorder

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Antithyroid was the most common. My mom doesn't have a functioning thyroid. So

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It found something else. It got the adrenal gland

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and It was a long process

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It was a brutal process

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We were lucky that we managed to be on our visits

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She was doing well We didn't see her at her worst most of the time until she broke her hip

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Yeah, and you know what they say about little ladies who break their hips

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She knew it she worked in a nursing home for a long time. Yep

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But um and everything everything she did was to prevent that from happening

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But sooner or later when your bones don't hold up your body anymore

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something's got to give so

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That's what gave yep, so

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Yeah, she broke her hip

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She was hoping to get surgery

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The doctor Said that there was a big chance that she wouldn't survive the anesthesia. She said that's fine

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That that's not that's not bad

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Like she didn't see that as a negative at that point

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but the anesthesiologist

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Wasn't willing to take the risk maybe an Oregon, but they're not suicide doctors. Yeah, they're not gonna

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Harm a patient in any way if she had held liable. She could have gone that route

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Because she was an Oregon. She couldn't go that route because she's Adventist

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And that was really frustrating for me because here I see a woman a very proud woman who worked in this field for a long time

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Seeing things happen right before her eyes that she never wanted to have happen. Yeah

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um And in Oregon there there's an out

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as long as you are of

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Sound mind and have two doctors

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And less than six months to live. She probably had a dozen doctors and definitely less than six months

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She could have made that choice. Yeah, uh, but I didn't fully understand

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How Adventists view

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the afterlife so

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That's okay, you know, that's not

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It's an individual's decision to do that

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So she chose not to for as many religious people would choose not like even non religious people would have a hard time

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Signing that paper, you know, it's and it's one where

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the number of people who

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Would sign that paper

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Be able to sign off on that while being

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of Sound of mind is very few

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Well, it's like saying that um mass shooters are insane

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Yes, they are inherently insane because to kill that many people is an act of insanity

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To end your life prematurely some would argue is an act of insanity. Therefore you can't be of sound mind

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Which is why it hasn't caught on anywhere else. Yeah, uh, I don't necessarily believe that now if you are terminally ill it is

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You know, there is a point

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And and that was one of the things that we we got to see was there was a point when she was of sound mind and could have made that determination

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and then there was the period of time where

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Her sound mind was gone. Yeah, and that was hard to see

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uh since

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Her diagnosis

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We made nine trips thousand

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60 miles round trip

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Uh Seven of those were in the last year and averaging what 11 hours

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Total about 10 hour travel time slower in the winter with and slower when kylie was younger

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Yeah, yeah, when kylie was younger it took a lot longer

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Uh when we'd have the dogs with us it would take longer than when they were staying with somebody

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We got pretty good at this spring though. We're

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It was dead winter. It was

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It was a lot slower when going over the mountains for 30 miles an hour. Yeah

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But we got those that time in yes and each visit we made

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She had an improvement in quality of life. Um, she called it her kylie fix

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Because as soon as she'd see kylie her

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Everything was better

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And that's awesome. Yeah

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And i'm greatly comforted by the knowledge that we helped in that regard. Mm-hmm. Okay, let's

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shift gears slightly

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It's been long enough. You can't remember the buttons, can you? No, it's i don't know which one i want to play

19:42

To get that label maker

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I think this is an appropriate sound this is from the schism's podcast

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But i still think it's an appropriate sound for the the tone

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I don't know it just makes your board look pretty The five stages of grief

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No, you had The class on this right you were a theology student you actually took the class the class okay, so as

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Through some of the core classes of my theology major

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there was The year of preaching classes one quarter of which was weddings and funerals

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half of the weddings and funerals class was on funerals and grief counseling and

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helping people through dying and the ministerial side of that

20:36

Separate from that As part of a psych minor that i was one class short of finishing

20:43

You said a little better there A little better

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It conflicted the one i needed to

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Abnormal psychology was the class that i needed to finish up the the minor and it conflicted with one of the core majors

20:57

I hate that core core classes for my major you can't afford to do a whole another semester

21:02

Just to do the one class, but yeah, anyway, so abnormal would have been fun

21:06

So i did uh death and dying

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An entire three quarter hour course on on death and dying

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two people teaching it one of whom

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Had worked for many years as a chaplain in a hospital the other one was a

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master of social work who was i think they got a doctorate in psychology and

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Was damn she was good

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Uh, but i went through a class learning all about

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About the process I have experienced it quite a few times with cousins who died in car accidents with my grandparents dying with an

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A few dying of a drug overdose

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Uh an estranged father dying

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I've experienced it from a bunch of different angles as well

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This was totally different from any of those

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uh, the five stages of grief though are

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They're pretty common pretty standard. Uh, it's the kubler ross model

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It's denial anger bargaining depression acceptance

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I remember this from the simpsons episode

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and Denial depending on who you are

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Will determine how long it takes and what form that takes

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Uh, I know i'm a weirdo

22:27

So denial isn't

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No No, she's going to do fine. She's going to be able to get the surgery

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She's going to make it for me denial was

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I'm freaked out about what I don't know I need to learn everything I can about this. Okay, so you you had it, but it came across at a very different

22:48

For me, it's weird. Yeah, then the average person would have gone. Okay, that makes sense. Yeah

22:54

Uh, my my my brain is just wired differently in how that how denial works

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Uh denial for me practicing skepticism for a long time. So

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You you are inherently doubtful of good news anyway. Yep. Um, or hopeful news

23:12

It's like, okay. Well, yeah, that's nice. But what are the facts? That's very good

23:17

training to have yeah, uh, anchor

23:21

I definitely

23:23

Went through there wasn't really much of the the standard, you know, phrasing of why me

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it's not fair or How can this happen to me or who's the blame or why would this happen? I knew the answers to all those right

23:37

It was her time statistically speaking

23:40

It was her time

23:42

Statistically speaking if she was at high risk of bad things happening. Yeah

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Uh It sucked

23:49

But if anything you had a few, you know, it was easy to get angry at a doctor

23:54

Uh, I found it was there was a period of time where it was very there were several periods of time

23:59

Because one of the things with the five stages is you can go through them multiple times through the same death

24:03

Especially when it's a death that you're you've gotten a year and a half to prepare for yeah

24:09

You can't complete it without closure. Yeah, so that was 18 months of going through this

24:16

cycle over and over and over again

24:19

Denial in in later stages denial ended up taking the form of just

24:24

kind of suspension of disbelief to be

24:27

Try to be positive and supportive of whatever new treatment my mom was trying

24:31

Uh Anger

24:33

In a lot of cases and it me just being shorter with people

24:37

It was a period of time where I was just angrier

24:40

at several points. Yeah, not at

24:43

a thing but just

24:46

in general Yeah, uh bargaining is the third phase

24:51

Of course if you don't have anyone to bargain bargain with that one kind of falls flat doesn't it bargaining in this one

24:59

Okay, that's that's that's what can you do to try to

25:03

You know, there's negotiating with god. There's

25:06

Which doesn't apply here. There's negotiating with doctors. There's just trying to figure out

25:12

you know if

25:14

if we try this will it

25:16

Make it hurt less but that's not really bargaining

25:19

That's you mostly left it up to the experts trusted the experts in their opinions

25:23

My mom went my mom didn't really do any bargaining. She went with whatever the doctor suggested. She was willing to try

25:29

Yeah, if it didn't work, she didn't

25:32

She stopped it

25:34

The closest I would come to

25:37

to the bargaining would be

25:40

Making as many trips as possible over there. Yeah

25:43

In hopes that seeing her that many times in particular that birthday trip

25:48

Uh That was when the weather was the worst that was the slowest drive. It was the most stressful

25:55

Uh, but we got there for her birthday on january 5 and got to spend her last birthday with her. Yeah

26:03

Uh, really bargain not really but

26:06

Again, you're weird. Yeah, I'm weird. That one doesn't work all that well with me a lot of people do bargaining a lot better

26:12

Well, the better Give yourself some credit

26:16

Uh depression

26:18

Is a pretty obvious one

26:20

Um I came back to that over and over again in particular anytime

26:28

We left after a visit or

26:31

The newest bad new newest bad news. Yeah

26:34

And The final step is acceptance

26:37

Uh You jumped right to that one early on

26:41

You didn't know that you were gonna have to do it over and over again though

26:43

I knew I was going to have to do it over and over again. Yeah, uh, I would say for the most part. I went through

26:50

In the first nine months

26:52

I went through the five stages

26:55

Uh, it was that

26:57

Just about a year ago little over a year ago when uh, my mom sat me down and

27:02

Made sure I It was clear in my mind that she was going to die

27:07

We then went to the beach and

27:10

I spent three days going through

27:14

depression To acceptance and then we got covid. Yeah, that was fun. Uh

27:22

So I had to cycle through these a few times

27:26

That they didn't cover that in your class. They did. Oh good

27:29

Yeah It's presented as a a linear thing. It's not linear

27:34

The five stages You you move through them many times you can reach acceptance and then go back to anger

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Or back to bargaining or back to depression

27:45

You have to get you know, almost every in according to the class everybody has to go through all five phases

27:51

Bargaining is broken for me. Uh, it's a higher power based one. Yeah, that's not really

27:57

Uh I went through the others several times. I

28:02

Spent a lot of time going back and forth between the depression and acceptance phases

28:07

Which definitely had a huge impact on

28:11

How many podcast episodes I was able to do?

28:14

My creative bucket has been empty

28:17

I get a bucket metaphor

28:20

Yeah, you had a leak you sprung a leak, but

28:24

acceptance Was fleeting

28:26

without closure and when she died

28:30

June 29 And I got word

28:34

It was closed That was the closure

28:38

Closure didn't mean immediate acceptance

28:41

But it closed the loop it closed the loop

28:44

It's still sad Uh, it's it's taken until now to be able to

28:50

Talk about it on microphone and not break down crying

28:54

Never mind the hell that we were going through at the time. It's

28:57

wait

28:59

It feels a it was a bit a rough day. Yeah, yeah at least

29:04

yeah so

29:07

I love how the takeaway of that is that there are five stages of grief

29:12

That everyone has to go through that may or may not apply to you

29:16

Yep, that's like no Everything you learned in school and it is still tailored to the individual

29:22

Well, okay, everything else that you learn about in life. Okay for for for a great example

29:28

with When my grandpa died. He was 96 years old

29:34

There was no denial that he was going to die

29:38

He was 96 years old and he was getting fed up with waiting for how long he was going to take

29:44

There was no anger. He wasn't losing anything. He had lived his life. He

29:50

Spent 70 years with the love of his life. He got to hold his great great grandchildren

29:55

He died in the house. He built

29:58

Like there was nothing to be anger angry about there was nothing to bargain with and it was barely depressing

30:05

Because he was awesome and he lived a full life and yes, it was sad that he died

30:12

But it was awesome the life that he had

30:15

with my mom there's

30:18

There's some trauma from the end

30:21

Her dying process was traumatic

30:24

So as your grandpa's my grandpa's wasn't was different

30:28

Okay, the generational difference was a huge factor in how that was different. They were just long

30:34

Slow and they were long and slower than you prefer and I really hope I haven't inherited that

30:42

resistance to death

30:44

Yeah Yeah, well

30:47

My grandpa was on hospice for two years

30:49

It's only supposed to be six months, but he was less than six months away from dying for two years

30:54

My grandma had a massive stroke that she never really woke up from and it still took her five months to die

31:03

The fact that my mom beat all of the odds for everything stacked against her by at least 10 to 20

31:12

That's crazy. Yeah

31:15

And but it's the same with your grandpa if you think about yeah, it was her time

31:19

She got to meet your child not just meet your child, but get a relationship with your child

31:25

Her and Kylie were close. Yes

31:27

um What what more would she have ever wanted at the end?

31:33

You gave that to her and that's

31:35

That helped. I think that will help close that. Yeah, even more. That's

31:40

Solid the good solid landing to focus on which is why

31:44

um This whole funeral

31:48

Funeral versus a celebration of life things shouldn't even be a debate. I don't know why some cultures obsess about mourning

31:55

Um, I like the celebration of life idea much much more

32:00

There there there is there is absolutely value in

32:03

the Shared grief and support

32:07

Yes, there is but i'm thinking like victorian style like morn for four years kind of stuff. That's like that's

32:13

Azar like no wonder you guys were so depressed

32:16

uh all right, let's

32:19

let's move on to

32:21

Adventist eschatology

32:23

Lauren had a little bit of foreshadowing a few minutes back

32:28

with Some statement about I didn't understand her

32:32

And just of what she thought of the afterlife because most most of us don't

32:43

I

32:45

All right, so

32:47

My mom was a devout seventh Adventist fifth generation or semi fourth generation that was fifth generation

32:54

uh fourth generation seventh Adventist

32:57

Uh on her dad's side third generation on her mom's side

33:01

Uh, she was actually out of the church

33:04

for about two years in

33:07

About about the age of 40 and 41 and then got back as soon as she could

33:11

Uh I didn't know that. Yeah, I had local politics kind of thing not local

33:17

uh family family politics

33:19

Uh, it was uh, that was a thing to avoid divorce that didn't

33:24

Oh, okay. Yeah

33:26

Didn't didn't work out and so once that was all resolved. She finally went back. Okay

33:32

Uh, I was a little surprised that it took you know two years to go back, but yeah, it took yeah

33:37

It took what it took but she was she was

33:40

devout Adventist uh and

33:42

Adventists have a very different belief than

33:46

the vast majority of religious people

33:48

About what happens when you die?

33:51

the standard Christian concept

33:54

non-adventist standard Christian concept

33:58

Is that there is a immaterial soul that cannot die and a physical body that is mortal

34:06

And that immortal soul

34:08

Has to go somewhere when you die. Yeah, and so it either goes to heaven or hell

34:14

Or in the case of catholics purgatory. Okay. Yep

34:18

Or in some yeah some traditions it might get trapped on earth to haunt people

34:25

Adventists

34:27

recognize that as

34:29

the the concept of the immaterial soul as

34:33

not being something that's very well supported in the bible and it

34:37

Isn't like there's one verse you can kind of read that way, but you can also easily read it not that way. Yeah

34:46

Okay, and the immaterial soul concept really fits better with

34:52

the with neoplatonic philosophy

34:56

That was common in the Hellenistic world of the first century roman empire

35:03

uh greek people

35:05

The greek peoples that became christians already believed in an immaterial soul. Yeah, the the eternal divine soul

35:15

And they kept that concept when they became christians and christianity

35:21

kept it Since I never grew up with that that was that's a concept that has never made sense to me

35:29

I think that's largely one of those things you have to believe in like you have to be raised believing it or else

35:35

It's absurd Yeah, that there's this other this this immaterial other and see that there's no proof of it

35:44

It's not even mentioned in the bible. I love that

35:48

not very scholarly

35:50

now there are plenty of verses that

35:52

Read fine either way. Yeah

35:55

That don't actually refer to the souls. Yeah

35:58

Um the the the verse about the resurrection where

36:01

You know the dead in christ or raised first

36:05

It doesn't talk about their their

36:09

souls being Sent from heaven down to their bodies to be raised up just that their bodies are raised out of the ground

36:16

Uh disturbing when you say that part out loud

36:19

Yes, but so is that entire chapter the whole book the whole book. Yeah, uh, I don't recommend reading it

36:27

Uh, it's it's it's garbage. It's it's very old garbage

36:32

uh but but yeah, so the

36:35

that concept though is that

36:39

Yeah without an immaterial soul

36:41

When you die you are dead

36:44

In the ground when the second coming happens

36:47

Which this is where you start getting into sanctuary doctrine which despite

36:53

Graduating college cum laude with the theology major and

36:58

minor is in biblical languages and history

37:01

and coming in third place in the greek proficiency exam wait a humble brag

37:06

I barely pulled off a withdraw passing

37:12

on the doctrine of the sanctuary class

37:15

I could not wrap my head around it. Well

37:20

I have no idea what you what it is. It is

37:24

So frickin bizarre. I explain it, but just maybe the key point for this part of the discussion

37:32

Yes, there is a crazy framework that makes no sense

37:36

Underlying all of it but the part at the surface that

37:40

That we need for this to make sense is that on october 22 1844

37:45

When jesus didn't come to earth and the great disappointment happened

37:50

to the millerites Jesus the day was right. The event was wrong

37:56

It was not jesus coming to earth

37:59

To cleanse the sanctuary. He was going to the heavenly sanctuary. Oh

38:03

Okay, that explains it in that the heavenly temple he was going into the holy of holies

38:11

To do the the actual work of atonement

38:15

And has been there doing the investigative judgment and the investigative judgment is where

38:22

the books of everybody's life since

38:26

either creation or jesus's resurrection

38:30

Are reviewed to see if based on what they knew

38:35

They should be saved. I like that there is a caveat for um

38:40

uh ignorance, yes

38:42

uh, which

38:45

did come up pretty early in in

38:48

Adventist circles with uh, if

38:52

Jesus couldn't return until everybody on earth

38:56

knew about his name. Yeah, hence the evangelical

39:00

spreading of there was a

39:03

So there was some efforts to send pamphlets out to islands

39:07

Which worked exactly one time when some pamphlets arrived at pit karen island and everybody on the island converted to adventism

39:15

Oh, there you go. And then they wrote back and asked for a pastor

39:19

And so they sent a pastor from california

39:22

Uh To this day pit karen island is at least nominally

39:27

100% Adventist

39:29

Uh There's the added factor on that though that

39:33

if you half-ass

39:36

That evangelism

39:39

It Dams people to hell. Oh shit

39:44

Whoops Because they know but if you did a bad job of telling them about Jesus and they aren't converted

39:52

Well, then they're damned Okay, okay. So, uh, maybe the pamphlets weren't such a great idea. No, no, but then there's also the the version the the concept that

40:03

Well, if you got a bad presentation, then you're not held accountable by that

40:10

And you're still held to the example

40:13

To the standard you would have otherwise like just were you a good person

40:18

an Adventist Do you believe that that if you're a good person that saves you if you're a good person who has not rejected christ

40:27

You're saved. Okay. If you're a good person who has rejected christ, then you are not

40:33

Whoo, which is where the whole if fun club

40:36

if you're ignorant your chances of being saved are higher than if you're

40:40

Straight up like yeah

40:43

Uh So all that's at play and then Jesus is there in the temple in heaven

40:50

going over all the books determining who's saved and who's not

40:54

and Once he finishes that and didn't want to let he didn't want to be an accountant. He just wanted a life and adventure

41:01

Here he is getting old. Once he gets caught up on that

41:06

then probation closes

41:09

Uh, there's persecution of of the true christians while all the bad christians join the catholics in the us government

41:16

slash new world order

41:18

To persecute the the the true christians who worship on saturday

41:23

So we're persecuting The true christians. Yes, who are the Adventists the Adventists plus

41:30

A bunch of people who go to church on sunday will will join them at that that moment

41:35

Okay, they'll make the decision the right decision. Yes. Okay, the ones that who are saved among them will

41:41

Well, the rest just join the mass persecution

41:44

and become dark shadowy

41:46

Government agents. Yeah, and then then run by the pope the the time of trouble is a seven-year period halfway through

41:54

uh, god's grace gets removed from the earth

41:58

and those who are still alive and are saved are

42:03

Uh, get full temptation of satan without any protection from god and will be

42:08

Going through the most horrible torture and torment. Okay

42:13

That's really odd words. Yes, really odd choice of words. So okay, so we have the persecution of the true christians

42:22

So they're being tortured. Yep, and then he has even worse and then we get the people who aren't saved

42:27

Who are being 10 10? No, the people who aren't saved are fine

42:31

They're they're just living life. Okay, so they live in life through this time period

42:35

So normal everyday life. Well, meanwhile the people who were saved

42:40

are On their way to heaven still have to go through torture. Yes, it means temptation

42:46

I love that temptation and

42:49

It all past sends getting you know brought up to them by satan and like yeah, it's

42:56

Okay, so they get tortured until finally finally finally at the end of that

43:00

uh Jesus returns to earth and

43:05

All wickedness dies instantaneously upon looking at him. Okay

43:10

So all bad people drop dead

43:13

What about sunglasses? Does that no no no because when it went when Jesus returns, uh, you'll everyone will be able to see him

43:22

Which I don't know how that works starting to sound like crazy person talk. Yes, everybody on the earth

43:29

Uh, at the same time at the same time. It's going to look upon him. Yep, like the god from monty python

43:35

Northern and southern hemisphere eastern and western hemisphere

43:39

All of a sudden he can do whatever the hell he wants

43:42

Um Okay, so then all the wicked people who've just been living their life. Yep. They all died quite happily. They die instantly. They're dead. Okay

43:49

then the

43:52

Sounds like the better of the two options at this point the the righteous dead

43:55

Uh, so people who are saved that had died previously. Okay, they are resurrected

44:01

Their bodies are reassembled as they were at the moment they died. Okay, so cremation is taken care of yes, okay

44:08

Wondering about that and decomposition is also taken care of. Thank you. Oh jeez

44:13

Nice, uh, nice detail. Yeah, so so as you were at the moment you died

44:18

Which is her sucks. That's horrific. Yeah, right?

44:22

The moment of death is Horrible for a lot of people. Yeah

44:27

Like that's gross. That's just could have gone back six months or something, but no the moment of death

44:32

Moment of death, uh, or perhaps maybe a moment before death so that you know the car accidents

44:38

The how you were before the accident. Yeah, or

44:42

You know without the gunshot wound 18 months. Like nope. They're how they were. They're how they were. Okay. Yeah

44:49

uh So they get raised up and start ascending to join jesus in the angels and then okay

44:55

They get their just rewards. They're there and all the the in heaven not yet

45:00

All the the righteous people who are still alive then start floating up

45:05

Into the sky and join jesus in the angels

45:08

Okay, and then they travel for seven days through a riot stuck on an airplane

45:13

They get taken out of the airplane. Okay before it crashes because the pilot is probably dead

45:19

Okay, because everybody else has instantly died. Yes. We're got that detail. Okay

45:24

and so then they they they fly through through space for seven days

45:30

and Enter heaven through its gate at the center of a ryan's belt

45:36

We're getting weird here again. Okay again. This sounds like the the the ramblings of a mad person

45:42

She said it's Ellen white was mad mentally. She was severely ill and sure

45:48

I've seen this amend in black. It looks pretty cool. Yeah, so so they go through a ryan's belt

45:53

uh Interheaven where they stay for a thousand years now, that's different. That's not the usual eternity

46:00

Oh wait, there's more. Oh after the thousand years. Okay

46:04

the the thousand years is largely

46:09

so that the people who are saved

46:12

who are all upset about

46:15

in some cases People are there that shouldn't be

46:19

And people that should be there aren't yeah, okay

46:23

they get to they get to

46:26

judge the judge

46:28

on that and Ask the judge all the questions and find out

46:32

Why those decisions were made?

46:35

And by the end of that the judge will be exonerated and everybody will be happy

46:40

Who's the judge satisfied? God. Oh, okay. That's odd. It's the same

46:45

God's gonna change his mind the saved get to judge God in this. Yeah, it's not gonna change anything. No

46:50

Whatever because in the it's the airing of grievances the prophecy is already that in the end the rest of us

46:58

God proves that he was just and he is

47:02

found to be just and then male comes to comes to be useful. Okay, and then

47:09

the heavenly city of Jerusalem

47:13

travels physically through space coming back out through a ryan's belt and a cross space

47:20

And starts to descend down through earth's atmosphere

47:23

And at some point it stops in the atmosphere nice

47:29

while Satan and his angels have been on earth this whole time barren wasteland for thousand years

47:37

roaming with all the

47:39

Bad people, right? No, the bad people are dead dead dead. Okay. So at this moment all of the dead bad people

47:48

Rise Oh, they get theirs

47:51

And join Satan's army Nice and then as the city touches down on earth

47:58

The Satan's army tries to attack the city

48:01

But then a jumbo trom goes trom that goes up and shows everybody

48:06

Why they were lost and then everybody's sad and feels bad and God out of mercy burns them up

48:13

But the amount of time it takes to burn up the wicked depends on how wicked they were

48:18

And specifically napoleon will take longer

48:23

To burn up that's hilarious then typical people that is that is written by ellen white that napoleon will take longer

48:32

Satan will take the longest okay

48:35

At least it ends at least you burn up for most it's instantaneous if you are particularly bad

48:42

Presumably seconds or minutes Satan minutes or hours

48:48

Got it got it, but then you're gone and then you're gone. Hey

48:52

So you're walking around your daily life drop dead nothing

48:57

You raise up. Oh, I'm part of Satan's army now. Hey, let's go attack that city. Uh burned up. I'm dead. Yep. I like that

49:04

It's not like being a sinner ain't so bad. The the hell version on that is

49:09

The the wages of sin is ha ha told you so

49:13

Yeah, that's all it is. Isn't it? And that's not even on the sinners. That's on the good righteous people. It gives them

49:20

They get to say ha ha told you so I told you so and that's that's all that this is about, huh?

49:25

Sounds rather egotistical and narcissistic and self-centered, but

49:29

so we're most religious people

49:32

not all but obviously not all there's so a lot of good people, but did that is convoluted and not

49:40

in Anyway related anything anybody else at least here in the us would remark as an afterlife. Yeah or future

49:49

um Are in line with people who think that the end of the world is coming? Yes

49:55

And are actively trying to have that happen whether it's by spreading the word or whatnot the

50:02

For what happens after the thousand years the Adventist version

50:07

For the saved is pretty similar to the Mormon like middle kingdom

50:13

Okay, except the Mormon one is with lots of sex and babies and the Adventist one is no sex or gender

50:21

Okay Adrogynous everybody in heaven is genderless. Oh, so when you come back and you come back as your body as the moment you die

50:29

You stay like you don't stay like that forever

50:31

No as you eat from the tree of life

50:34

Your body has changed into perfection, which apparently is genderless. Yes like that. Okay

50:40

I would also assume completely devoid of any unique features

50:45

Basically turning into a stick figure

50:49

Barbie and kendall

50:51

Nope, that's no that's way too. That's everybody turns into a Barbie or everybody turns into a kendall

50:57

Yeah, yep non-binary is the future according to Adventist or just on that a little bit sooner than others. Yeah

51:04

Appreciate that. All right. So so that's

51:08

That is what I grew up believing. Hey, that is what my my mom believed

51:14

So you mentioned her being at rest

51:17

Yes, and that that is a term that you have brought up many times through this whole

51:23

Endeavor. Yes

51:25

That was another one that I hadn't quite I mean, yes rest in peace that kind of thing but not quite

51:31

as much as

51:33

the Adventists seem to use it in the

51:37

the Adventist view

51:39

death is a timely death is when you are

51:44

allowed to rest until the second coming. Okay

51:48

So, okay. Yeah, so Adventists who are

51:51

ready to die old age or

51:55

terminal illness

51:57

They want to rest that is a very easy thing because when people are dying

52:03

They are very tired. It makes sense and they're struggling

52:07

And it's easy to want that person is he that's an easy comforting thought for the survivors to say I want this person to be at rest

52:15

Yes, that's yeah I like that and that was that was a metaphor that I was comfortable using through the process

52:21

It was when I was comfortable communicating with my mom about because

52:25

You were on the same page. I know largely

52:28

Immediately that means the same exact thing to both of us. Yeah

52:32

Wow It's rather beautiful actually that's probably one of the

52:37

nicest things that I've gotten out of this whole

52:40

18 months was that metaphor of being at rest. I like that

52:45

But also flying through a rinds belt. I I want to do that. That sounds awesome

52:50

All right, that was not the best organized

52:55

We're back. I I am not certain I will get another episode out this month

53:00

Because I'm camping to do I will try

53:03

We will my best to get another episode out this month. There will definitely be one next month

53:09

I need to get back to normal Yeah

53:12

Life has been crazy and the podcast is a part of my normal

53:17

That I have let go And I need that back

53:22

Yeah, it's eager. I know it's egotistical

53:24

to feel like To be a whole person. I have to talk into a microphone and have people listen to it, but

53:33

Yeah, it's it's part of your shared human experience. Yes, it is

53:38

and and the the the relationship that

53:41

that we have and we

53:43

Including all of the listeners and the patrons

53:47

That is that's a part of my life that

53:50

I don't want to lose. I've needed to kind of

53:54

distance myself from it some

53:57

I I need to get back into it

54:00

Yeah And I don't yeah, I don't know the pace of getting back into it

54:05

I don't want to rush myself

54:07

I am out of practice and I need to get back into practice

54:12

And I I thank all of you for your your patience

54:16

Through this

54:29

All right, you can find the feedback forum at htotw.com slash contact you can leave us a voice message at

54:35

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54:39

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54:43

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54:47

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54:50

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54:53

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54:56

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54:59

go back soon

55:01

Remember not all those who wander are lost