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Humanists take on the world episode 27. What's an evangelical?

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Welcome to another episode of humanists take on the world

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I am Dustin and joining me trying to not spill her drink on the microphone is

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Lauren. Hey

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It's precarious guys. It was precarious. Oh

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All right, so yeah, we're back

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We are recording. Nope. Nope. We totally missed July. I

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Said the last episode. I wasn't sure if we would get another one out in July

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We tried we did. Um

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Actually, we would not have gotten it out in July. So no, it's all right. Happy August everyone

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Yeah, yeah, and for those of you who missed the last episode or are joining for the first time

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The last Over the course of about the last two years my mom went through

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Interhepatic bile duck cancer and died in late June

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so the show got

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lighter and lighter and lighter as I

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Had less and less capability

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Which is understandable. Yeah going from publishing an episode weekly to

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Not quite making monthly. Yeah

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Yeah, we did get some feedback though on it from Vincent via the website about the five stages of grief

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Hey guys I was very sorry to hear about Dustin's bomb passing

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But it was good to hear that you both seem to be dealing with it in a healthy way

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But there was just one thing I couldn't let slide when I heard you guys say that the five stages of grief is something

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Everyone has to go through. I immediately felt the need to look it up

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Turns out that that is not the case

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Individuals and cultures are all different and everyone experiences death or illness in their own way

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Some will of course go through one or more of those stages and even other stages

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All this to say that you are not weird for the ways in which you go through this phase of your life

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You are perfectly normal and human

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So and Dustin read that to be first initially. I wanted to get real defensive

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Because it sounded like the person heard that line five stages of grief paused the show looked it up wrote us a female and

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then maybe listen to the rest of the episode because

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Through our ramblings

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That wasn't what we were saying at all. We were saying traditionally. This is what's taught

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This is what said, but this is not how it usually works out

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Which is what this person also said

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And we agreed with and so we all ended up with the exact same conclusion and is correct

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So and the defense of anymore because and right and to

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clarify on You know like my position on it. I was basically quoting what I got taught in a

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three or four hundred level psychology class at a

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Adventist college Anybody who knows everybody's heard of the five stages of grief one because they've studied it in high school

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Uh-huh or two because of Simpson's episode or if you're weird part of it

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It was covered in in several classes. You never saw the Homer Simpson death episode

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The five stages of grief in like 30 seconds. The guy says, uh-oh, you're you're in real trouble now

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I don't anyway, whatever. It's a it's a good joke. It's a good show. But um, yeah, no, it is different for everybody. It

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There are themes but

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It's like everything in psychology

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Somebody a long time ago

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Wrote a book wrote the text book

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literally wrote a book based on

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What seemed to be the most common

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And they're white euro centric white christian

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probably a wealthy

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White christian affluent. Yeah. Yeah, I got it

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And then published that and then that becomes what's considered to be

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the normative typical

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Obviously people who are not neurotypical are not going to process the five stages the same

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Yeah, absolutely not obviously whether or not you have a belief in a higher power

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changes how you interact with that

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and I absolutely did not mean by it that people in every culture everywhere on the planet

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Yeah, no, but as somebody who went to school and studied some things and went to you know took some special classes about such things

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This is what you were spoon fed

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Just like everybody else who took those classes and everybody else who had interest in this stuff in high school and took psychology or whatever it's

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Is considered standard when it's not and for

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Neurotypical white christians it is

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relatively standard or at least it's um

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Enough to be considered standard. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Uh, I got this

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when my when my nephew

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overdosed I got to see the

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Pentecostals on the other side of his family

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Bargaining real heavy with god

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I think the five stages of grief is a better

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note for a baseline on

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The different reactions you're going to see from people who are going through grief

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It is not at all an outline of how you yourself are going to experience it

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Yeah, but for somebody who say is a chaplain and is dealing with people who have to pull the plug on their kid

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You're going to see a lot of emotions. You're going to see a lot of weird things that are outside the normal

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human behavior the way it's taught though is that

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basically that you need to be

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helping guide people through those stages and make sure they don't skip a step because

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They'll come back and haunt them if they don't okay. Well, I roll my eyes at that obviously

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But using it as a baseline to help people guide through a process

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That's helpful as a you know for as a therapist or a chaplain or a pastor or even just a rando

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If you can help them guys say you feel angry

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You know, you feel like bargaining with god. Do you feel like this that's normal? That's okay

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Uh, so it is good to that this stuff is kind of taught on a basic level

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But it should never be taught as a universal. It's just

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These are some of the things we see in people. Yeah, this is what you might come across in the future

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but Yeah, thank you for the comment either way this and from js via patreon

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Thank you for sharing your experience on htotw episode 26

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death is a topic often avoided and

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Shouldn't be as it affects us all the five stages of grief wasn't meant to be a strict rule

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But whether rather a general guide

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It's not linear nor every stage experienced merits of the paper aside excellent episode. Thanks again for sharing

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Yeah This makes me feel better because that means everybody you guys got it you got the point

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What we were trying to make with her it sounded like we were making it or not

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Particularly hard with chronic long-term illnesses where you having to go through these different feelings over and over and over again

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Which is you know what what Dustin had to go through

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And talking about death is still hard

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It's still not something we are very comfortable with and I am way more comfortable with it than

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Most people and most people then again. I I took a class on it

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I did do some hospital chaplain training. I

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Yeah, I got training to be comfortable with it

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And for people who are comfortable with it. Yeah, it is important for us to talk about it because

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That helps for people who aren't comfortable talking about it

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Well, that's why that lady here in Boise has a death cafe

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And she literally invites people to come out to as I think as a coffee shop

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Once a month and you bring a journal or you write poems or you do something

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You don't even have to have had experienced a death

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You just go and explore those feelings because it better prepares you for when it does happen, but that's

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That's nice. We need more of that in our society

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We've got some oh if you want to contact us you can use the feedback form on the website

8:36

The speak pipe

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Link in the show notes is fixed again

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So I don't think anybody's ever used it though. Well, no, but

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For sure. Nobody's used it in the last year and a half because it's been broken. Oh

8:52

That's fixed now Yay. All right. And uh, yeah, the voicemail line. Nobody's used in a year

8:59

Uh, okay. We've been half hiatus for a year. Absolutely. So that's fine. Yes, but you can always

9:04

Contact you want to hear your beautiful voices, but we have a new story you want to talk about

9:12

You

9:16

By now you have probably all heard about the

9:20

Four students that were killed in Moscow, Idaho last year brutal brutal murder brutal

9:28

knifing murder

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The suspect was hunted down

9:34

On the east coast brought back

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Is facing trial? Uh

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Big story at the height of true crime podcast era. Yes, uh, which led to its own set of issues

9:49

Where on a side issue like this actually has nothing to

9:55

Nothing actually to do with the killings

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Or the trial or any of that

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There is a tiktokker

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who claimed That a university of Idaho professor was the murderer

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Because she was having an affair

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With one of the women in the house that got killed

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Okay, okay. So influencer so um totally not respected at all and uh

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Claims that there was an affair therefore was responsible for the murder of four people

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Including this woman to cover up the affair cover up the affair

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Okay, just were

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Yes, same page there. That's the professor

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Rebecca Schofield is the professor and she filed a defamation lawsuit in December of last year against the tiktok

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user Ashley Gulliard

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Because not a single statement she made was true

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There was a murder Yes, she got that okay that that one detail was correct. There was no affair

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Schofield did not know any of the students

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No, let alone have any involvement with any of the students

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Yeah And she was just as shocked and horrified by this as everybody else in the state

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Which was everybody else in moscow

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by the time this

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Yeah, and and by that time the suspect was already

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the suspect tracked down

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Through dna Found at the crime scene

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On the murder weapon

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Was already in custody

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so Yeah

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So she filed the defamation lawsuit in december 2022

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Which tells you know that's

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That doesn't make for a very interesting story if it was just a person who randomly chose a random person

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But it's the background of this tiktok or that it's just like what the fuck so the

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Gulliard

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You know, of course she refused to take down the videos

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Which got her the lawsuit

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She is still refusing to take down the videos

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And she is also refusing to hire a lawyer to defend her

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And is representing herself in court and ever ever at this point everybody goes ah

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And nods like yep, she's one of those now if you defend yourself in court you're fucked

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as a a podcaster

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uh the the risk of somebody

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Being talked about on a show

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Resulting in the threat of a lawsuit demanding the episode be taken down is something that I have thought about

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several times

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However, when I make a statement of fact about somebody it's based on a source

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Opinion is not defamation

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knowingly making false statements is

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when it causes harm

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so This is not a case of a slaps suit to shut somebody up

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Gulliard has spiritual abilities

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and divine revelation

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is how she knows

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Who actually did it?

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that Ignore the guy

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Who's been arrested and charged yep? It's going to trial

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Uh who studied criminal

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um justice

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Obsessively apparently

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This is going to be a Netflix drama. We know it is

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Ignore all that and focus on this rando

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And drag her knee I mean, I remember this being this was big news when it hit because there was a shocking murder

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And then this random professor was named as the killer her life was turned upside down for months

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Yep, she was getting threatened

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She she could have lost everything

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Because this random person on tiktoks named her

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How she even got the name. I don't know if she went through the phone book

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or Faculty director or something like what did she have a beef with this person? I have no idea

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But it's it's this is exactly why these kinds of lawsuits exist because you can't ruin a person's life

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Randomly for no apparent reason claiming god told you so and get away with it

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uh Yeah, gully art is making not just

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Trying to get the case dismissed, but she's trying to do

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counter claims

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That everything she's saying is factual and that this lawsuit is ruining her life

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thus Scofield is at fault for getting these accusations against her

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and Like it's it's it's absolutely nuts

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And I think this has all been played out before with psychics

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You know, it's yeah I mean the psychic claims that so-and-so is the murderer police department goes after them

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It's not true. They sue the psychic for making it up basically and it this does not end well

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no, no and it's

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Satisfying to watch her drag herself further down by itself representing and will continue to watch the story isn't it unfolds

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All right. Well, let's move on

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So

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All right, so what is an evangelical?

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Apparently I have no clue

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We talk about evangelicals all the time. It's kind of important. They show up in news stories all the time

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Pew pew surveys for for example the leading indication that somebody would be supporting trump

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Is that they are a white evangelical

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the Leading into indication that somebody is a christian nationalist

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Is that they are white evangelicals

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The leading indication that somebody is a homophobic racist misogynistic

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Horrible piece of ship bigot is that they are a white evangelical

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but What the hell is an evangelical

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Yeah, because all these years Dustin's been using this word

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To describe a segment of the population which I agreed with it's like, oh, yeah, they're definitely they're even no

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Jokel until he mentioned the Seventh-day Adventists

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Now in my mind Seventh-day Adventists one of their things is that they need to let everyone in the world know that Jesus was a thing

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Before the end of the world could happen They go out and they proselytize in my little crocodilian brain

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I thought that if they're evangelizing that must mean they're even jellicles evangelicals

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So that that that was my assumption and then he made this comment together. Oh, they're finally considered evangelicals

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I'm like, what are you talking about? They always have been

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And he's like, well, this is the definition. I'm like, well, what the hell does that mean?

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And it was like it was like reading the dictionary for the first time. I was like, I didn't know

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Okay, so Loquialisms rule not not technicalities term evangelical dates back to Martin Luther. I can Luther's let's just mess and stuff up

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We're talking 16 the 16th century. All right

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It Evangel literally means good news

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It's the same as the gospel

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the gospel

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Books of the bible the first four four books of the new testament are called the evangelists

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Okay, especially in that time period

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that is old timey language that has generally fallen out of favor as

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gospel has gone to

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mean that not you know yeah

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so And he considered evangelicals to be the same as Protestants

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also Reformed at that time was the same as Protestants

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Yeah, and at that mean the same anymore, but at that time what it meant

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was that people who followed a reformed

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Style of Christianity and were in protest against the catholic church

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actually believed in the gospel

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Unlike those dirty catholics

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That's what it all comes down to that's versus them, right? That was that was the 16th century original

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Evangelist or evangelical not catholic. It just meant not catholic. Okay, which we have so many words for

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within one generation

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Protestant and reformed were not

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Synonyms, but overlapped venn diagram kind of thing

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Not not really venn diagram reformed what became a subset of Protestants. Okay, okay

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where that the reformed

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churches were those were the Calvinist churches

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very strict

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predestination okay

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while Lutheranism was

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soft predestination

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and then you had

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Arminianism and Anglicanism with the rest of the the rest of the not catholics the Anglicans

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Yeah, okay, and few weirdos who uh loved the weirdos was uh

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That you could have free will and faith because initially the whole concept of

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like a big part of the original

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Protestant Reformation was that you cannot choose to be

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saved Because that's a work

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If you can even make the choice to accept salvation then that is doing something to earn salvation

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And then it's not salvation by faith. That's still salvation by works

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Okay, I'm sorry. This is another episode because

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It's been long enough since we talked about this time. Just did you put booze in this? Yes, just drunk enough

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I thought you wanted. I'm getting lost

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No, I'm not getting lost. This is interesting and I'm getting diverted

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I'm reverting but this is this is all this is all important. Okay to understand it. So it is

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There was the history for you. There was the split between

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Right, right. So so then this is so important. That's what every history it ever has ever said

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so the the

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with time

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Free will Protestant theology

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became a thing

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And it's what the Anglicans went for

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and various other movements went for it as well

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Free will theology was difficult for Protestants for the reasons we we already mentioned but

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And how that all works out is incredibly complicated and there are very acinine books

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Libraries of acinine books about how those all interplay and podcasts. I'm sure

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Yeah, schisms

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Schisms never got that. Okay. You weren't you weren't able to get that. You were never made it to the first

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Never made it that far. Yeah someday

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So Protestant reform started meaning different things. Okay, and then

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Around the time of John Wesley in the 18th century

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part of the first great awakening there was the

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beginnings of the early evangelical movement

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Okay, so what does that mean?

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these were people who

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strongly promoted that to be

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A true Christian you needed to be born again

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You had to actually have a conversion experience

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That the water dunking or

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Necessarily alone in a cave for a week. No doing drugs. No, I think no the

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so for for

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churches like the Methodist which john wesley

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established uh infant baptism

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was continued to be practiced

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but There was expected to be a conversion experience that would happen sometime

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later that the baptism was about bringing you into the community

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the churches that rejected infant baptism the baptists

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and a baptist and later baptists

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uh that baptism was part of that conversion experience

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Oh, which is why they do the baptisms way way way later

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Because that's part of the conversion process versus an infant can't make that decision right the 12 year olds can

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Right. Yeah, they get busted with something and need to make good with mommy and daddy sure

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so then That was the the so the early form of the evangelical movement was focused on the conversion experience the

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person being changed by salvation and becoming a better person

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and sharing that with others

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Okay, so does that mean that born again is just another word for

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Evangelical evangelical yes those are interchangeable

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Yes, okay, and still today they are interchangeable almost always

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There's always an asterisk with you. Yes, but okay almost always the most part for this

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If somebody says they are born again that person is

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Almost definitely Some kind of evangelical whether they would identify as an evangelical or not

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Okay Okay

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Because that's where it also gets tricky. So but we'll get to get to there

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uh, so as

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As time progressed the evangelicalism

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Was a general movement within christianity. It was not denominations

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it was Just a general movement within christians across

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Protestant denominations. Okay, so you could find evangelicals in every church

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That didn't mean they needed to leave that church and start other churches

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Although many of them did many of them did

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I've heard so many evangelical churches and so was basement because their church wasn't right. I'll do it better themselves

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so then that continued

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Until You know evangelicalism was kind of starting to die out

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Around the the turn of the 20th century and it had a resurgence

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That really took hold in the 1980s

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with the moral majority and ronald ragan

25:38

and roversus weighed and

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They all got funneled into the republican party

25:45

And that's how we get to modern evangelicals. Okay

25:48

Now the way the term gets used evangelical the term uses use so much differently nowadays

25:55

And it was ever used when I was growing up before high school. I like yeah different so pre september 11. I would say in

26:03

in general when somebody is talking about

26:09

Evangelicals as a subset of christianity

26:14

that is somebody who

26:17

breaks Protestant christianity at least in the united states really into three categories

26:25

mainline Well, okay mainstream no mainline main line

26:31

Um, okay. There's gonna be actually be more more categories here. There's there's main line. Okay evangelical. Okay, the black church

26:40

And the weirdos

26:43

Okay Okay. No, okay. Yeah, i'm seeing it now. I started noticing a few years ago on charts

26:53

Adventists not being listed separately with the Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses

26:59

with a capital w the weirdos the weirdos

27:03

and at least by 2014 pew had

27:09

shifted Adventists into

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The evangelical grouping I really need to get that soundboard back going with the pew pews

27:18

It's over here. You just can't reach it

27:22

Smart, but I do need laser pew pews for every single time you say pew

27:28

And you just are calling them pew pews to get me to shut up

27:34

So so that's what what what what's what's interesting there is for in the case of Adventists they they started in the 1950s a

27:42

very concerted effort

27:45

to be Viewed as mainstream getting out of the weirdos. Yeah

27:51

and They work their asses off

27:54

buying up hospitals and

27:58

expanding how many people they were getting through medical school and dental school and nursing school and into communities everywhere

28:04

To get Adventists everywhere to get Adventists into positions where they're interacting with people everywhere

28:11

Right because it's good to have a community

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But it's even better to have everybody spread out everywhere which Adventists had already been doing

28:19

But it was very much a focus on be in the community

28:23

not just live in these communities be in the community

28:28

and try and be more mainstream well

28:31

Adventists a whole damn it

28:34

And blend in

28:36

Adventists city is sounded by by any definition of evangelical

28:42

Unless you get into the leucine covenant definition, which they are not

28:47

um, that's his own thing that we did an episode about

28:50

in march, I believe

28:52

uh they are that they

28:56

Adventists have always been evangelical by any definition of the term

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At least when I was growing up and going to

29:05

Adventist schools and getting a degree in theology and going to the Adventist seminary

29:10

Evangelicals were always other

29:12

We were not evangelicals the evangelicals were something else

29:17

and from any

29:20

reasonable

29:23

External look at what Adventists are and what they do

29:27

They are evangelicals

29:30

They have the born-again experience. Yep

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Um some kind of baptism or yeah adult baptism. They focus on

29:38

sanctification and doing good works

29:41

They just have weird you

29:44

Adventist revelation seminars are evangelistic series

29:48

They're literally called evangelistic series, which is why when you said oh look they're finally actually being included i'm like

29:55

But it's in the you can't

29:57

Graduate from the Adventist seminary without preaching an evangelistic series

30:02

Yeah, you have to do evangelism to be an Adventist pastor

30:07

And yet it was yeah, but that's not us

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But evangelicals were people who went to church on sunday

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And yeah So somebody high up

30:19

Has been made the decision long ago and has been working their butt off to make sda's look more mainstream

30:25

Maybe and not in actuality, but in the media

30:28

I think the attempt was to try to get Adventists look like they were mainline

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To make them look like they were methodists because it won't check nobody's opinions about that will change until they start showing up at a differently

30:40

in charts from pew

30:43

Now so somebody pew pushed this when it comes to

30:47

How the terms are being used in those charts

30:52

the mainline churches

30:54

Are the liberal and moderate churches?

30:57

So what's left of the methodist church is mainline the evangelical Lutherans, which are not evangelical

31:06

Lutherans your mainline

31:08

Not all Lutherans

31:10

Some Presbyterians and not all Presbyterians the episcopal not the anglicans

31:16

Yeah, because there have been a bunch of schisms

31:19

In these churches when it stopped when for the most part when the evangelicals within these denominations

31:26

weren't happy continuing to go to church with people who weren't

31:30

Evangelical and they started splitting which makes sense if you've had this born-again

31:36

Revelation you've chosen you know if you have this spiritual movement and then you find out the guy next you

31:42

I guess chose not to

31:45

You don't feel equal. Yeah, so if you look at the mainline churches

31:49

They're way more liberal

31:51

Most of them have ordained women as pastors if not all of them

31:56

uh The the congregationalists are also mainline. So the

32:01

uh The group that the Unitarian split from

32:06

That are still Christian. They're their mainline Christians

32:10

Um women pastors are common. They're they are pretty much all

32:17

Gay affirming are they the biggest slice of pie in america or are they

32:23

Like when main line you make it sound like the word the term main line makes it sound like they're the majority

32:28

But that doesn't sound like the majority of churchgoers

32:32

Uh I don't know about attendees as far as membership goes they are about half of Protestants in the United States

32:41

Which would be Main line. I get that. Okay. Main line is

32:47

A synonym of that is old line

32:50

That these are the old Protestant churches

32:53

And the evangelicals are the

32:56

The schismatic groups that broke out as a grammatically poor choice of words that now it's very confusing

33:03

So but this but the mainline church is one of the other big factors is they all accept

33:09

evolution and reject creationism

33:12

They usually go for some kind of intelligent design or theistically guided evolution

33:18

But they accept evolution and don't argue with the scientific facts. They try to interject god

33:24

At all the question marks

33:26

I haven't reintroduced that in like third grade. The boy I really really liked

33:30

Uh Made that argument once when we're arguing about evolution in third grade because that's apparently what you do

33:37

Yeah, and uh, I just called bs on it. I'm like

33:40

but you know if that's

33:42

Makes sense if you think that there's definitely something there. There's some kind of gods. I'm kind of spiritual

33:47

Well, of course, then you maybe it was just pushed by them. Maybe if that makes sense to them now the evangelical churches in these groupings

33:56

are all of the

33:58

conservative churches

34:00

Who nearly all of them do not?

34:03

Ordain women Right

34:06

There are a few not many

34:09

Uh, they are almost all young earth creationists with some room for intelligent design

34:14

They are anti-gay Like that's the the churches that are in the the pentecostal camp

34:21

Um It's going to be a lot more fundamentalist. It's the southern baptist. It's

34:27

95 of non-denominational churches

34:31

It's all of the pentecostal churches

34:34

It's the offshoot from the methodist church. It's the Anglican church in america

34:40

it's most of the presbyterian church well the missouri synod of the presbyterian church it's

34:50

It's confusing. Yeah, would you try to get into too many details, which is why a lot of people don't

34:55

Why it's hard to actually find solid answers on what these terms mean because some people will call themselves one thing

35:01

But they are another thing, but that thing is also an innocent of them for another thing

35:06

And it all just sounds crazy to an atheist because there are there are evangelical denominations

35:14

That call themselves evangelical There are mainline denominations that call themselves evangelical that are not

35:21

There are evangelical denominations who would not identify themselves as evangelical

35:27

Such as the seventh amethyst church despite being evangelical there are

35:33

Evangelicals who are members of mainline Protestant denominations

35:38

Yeah, okay, it's messy

35:41

absolutely most of my religious studies

35:45

Uh pretty much went out the window when I started watching anime

35:48

And I started watching neon genesis even gellian and I couldn't even pronounce the word correctly anymore by the time I hit high school

35:55

So that's that's where I was coming from so I

35:59

Did a lot of studying and like late middle school before they started like really eyeballing me at school

36:06

Just started kind of started shutting that down and then once I got into anime that was the end of that

36:10

so when people talk about evangelicals it is a synonym for

36:17

conservative mainstream Christians

36:20

Jehovah's witnesses and Mormons are not evangelicals

36:23

They are other Jehovah's witness don't have like any kind of born-again experience

36:28

Uh, they don't believe neither Jehovah's witnesses nor Mormons believe that Jesus is god

36:34

Oh trinity thing. Yeah, okay

36:37

Non-trinitarian automatically puts you into a different group

36:40

Which is one of the reasons why adventa started in the weirdo groups and it took them

36:46

50 years to get moved into one of the non weirdo groups

36:51

Uh, the the doxology is a a hymn that most churches have

36:57

that the trinitarian version ends with father son and holy ghost

37:04

the Adventist hymnal did not add that part that line did not put that line in

37:11

until the 1980 edition

37:15

the earlier editions

37:17

Of the hymnal were non-trinitarian

37:19

They shouldn't feel like they have to change themselves to be accepted by society

37:24

They had the Adventists had mostly moved that direction by that point. Okay, uh, but the question is like why would they do that?

37:31

Why would they push themselves to be something they're not?

37:35

I I actually did a I did a paper on it in in the seminary on uh

37:41

when at what point Adventists

37:44

Became trinitarian and the earliest reference I found to the holy spirit

37:51

As part like what I basically found is by about

37:55

1875 ish

37:59

Uh Adventists had reviewing

38:02

Jesus as fully god the holy spirit was not viewed as like a person of any kind

38:10

Until the 1890s an entity an entity

38:13

Okay That came about the 1890s was when that was first

38:17

Like the first mention I found in any Adventist publication referring to the holy spirit

38:23

As a person was 1890s it was 1890. Okay

38:28

and then

38:30

Very like virtually no discussion after that and then by the 1950s the church was just officially saying they were trinitarian

38:39

And it took another 30 years to get most of the members are

38:45

Come along with them on that so weird how religious evolve over time

38:50

Yeah, and the the leadership moves way faster than the membership usually. Yeah

38:56

um but the uh

38:59

the final point on on evangelicals is when you look at some of the

39:03

the most staunchly evangelical denominations. Okay, the the most quintessential is the southern baptist convention

39:11

uh, it is the

39:13

largest And the most influential within the the general evangelical movement

39:20

Which even using that term

39:22

There are evangelicals who are not part of the evangelical movement

39:26

because of course there are because of how words are

39:30

get used um colloquial versus technical definitions and which technical definition because there's five or six of them

39:39

but the southern baptist church is the the most

39:42

quintessential and the fact that evangelicals are

39:47

somebody being a white evangelical

39:49

being the Single greatest predictor as to whether or not somebody is a christian nationalist

39:54

Should not be surprising considering the southern baptist church

39:59

Exists because of a split over slavery

40:03

and they were on the slavery side

40:06

through the segregation era the

40:09

Venn diagram of kkk members and southern baptists

40:14

overlapped greatly which you mentioned early on there was this multiple different types of

40:21

You know Protestants in america and you mentioned the black church. Yes. Where does the black church fit in all of this?

40:27

obviously if evangelical

40:30

I can't even say the word anymore

40:32

Uh something that can cross over multiple churches different denominations. Oh, that's true with black churches as well, right? I mean

40:42

Black churches absolutely can be evangelical

40:46

the Traditionally black denominations aren't typically counted with the evangelicals though

40:53

because they Don't fit neatly with that group

40:57

on like with the pew study for studies for example, there's enough social differences that

41:03

They just don't mix or they're more lit the black churches are way more liberal

41:08

The the black evangelical churches are way more liberal than the white evangelical churches

41:13

because you need to think of black church going down to the river is like

41:18

one of those images that is

41:20

Firmly in in my mind about that's that's a part of those churches. It's that in the singing and the hours

41:27

Black churches are are evangelical. They are they don't count in these they are sometimes counted with evangelical. They usually aren't

41:37

That's why because evangelical is taken on this whole another connotation. Yes white nationalism

41:43

They don't fit with that Which is why it's white evangelical

41:49

White correlates with white nationalism. Okay. Got it

41:53

Well, obviously I wouldn't count a black church as being a white evangelical, right

41:58

But I'm surprised that you when you mentioned that that's there was those

42:02

Splits that was like the black churches like well, what about them?

42:07

the black churches don't neatly fit into

42:10

Do their own thing we fit into the cabin if they do share a lot of the same

42:15

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42:22

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42:31

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42:39

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42:42

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