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this is

0:33

a cbc podcast

0:44

long after the cube or island residential school

0:46

was torn down the survivors

0:48

are still haunted by what happened there

0:51

long time cbc reporter radio

0:53

host and investigative journalist duncan

0:55

makes you exposes barry police

0:57

investigations conference perpetrators

1:00

of abuse and witnesses a community

1:02

trying to rebuild literally

1:04

on top of the old schools ruins

1:07

and the unmarked graves of indigenous

1:09

children now here's the first

1:11

episode of kuper island a

1:13

school they called alcatraz

1:20

are we start this is a podcast know canada's

1:23

indian residential schools and

1:25

it contains descriptions of sexual violence

1:27

suicide and abuse if

1:29

you need support you can find information

1:31

about where to turn for help at cdc dossiers

1:34

last keeper island

1:37

more your uncle dance and his neck as

1:40

there's not the marginal in dot the

1:43

can mchugh a journalist and

1:45

indigenous journalist i'm

1:47

doing a podcast about indian residential

1:49

schools in canada

1:52

had its way the wouldn't be here

1:56

because

1:56

whole point of creating a network of

1:58

church run state funded board the schools

2:00

that operated for over century and canada

2:03

was to get rid of people like me eradicate

2:06

similarly you'll be indian

2:09

in a child

2:11

i'm here my ancestors went

2:13

through a lot to get me though

2:16

let tell your story you're

2:19

finally

2:20

yeah i was wondering if you're going make

2:22

and i kept looking at the time and know sinking

2:26

maybe their lives that we were we

2:28

were kind or on and on in the entire of oral

2:31

and , set saying i'm not a success

2:33

starts for me in driveway joe harris

2:36

have heard lot of stories about residential schools

2:38

over the years years she told me one

2:40

over the phone the made hairs on my neck stand

2:42

neck come on and bank midwest

2:46

short native grandma would long silvering

2:49

hair so , for

2:51

many cats the us how many votes

2:54

about ten or eleven eleven

2:56

have arthritis of try pretend that

2:58

i'm not allergic to cats oh are

3:00

you such as ah

3:03

, simplicity them

3:05

nine over the blazer jews the

3:07

former chief of penelope poker

3:09

mean of community on mean isolated island

3:11

off the coast british columbia

3:13

where the kuper island residential school

3:15

once stood the

3:17

to give you little bit of background and

3:19

on what i'm doing with their residences

3:22

two thirds yeah so missing

3:24

children is sam well

3:27

i'm working with and we sit

3:29

down at her kitchen table

3:31

and then jill starts to tell me about a day

3:33

when she was chief like twenty years

3:35

ago when an elder came to see her

3:37

at the band office she was very concerned

3:40

that there were people being

3:43

bothered hey

3:46

like apparitions of children are

3:49

hearing , are being hunted

3:52

sort of face the children

3:56

the she was afraid

3:58

that there was somebody who

4:00

was going to be hurt our we

4:02

were seemed to have trouble

4:05

he said we needed to do some work we

4:08

needed to find out why the children

4:10

were appearing to people

4:13

are , they were calling

4:15

for help

4:16

what went through your head when she came to us

4:19

well

4:22

i believe in in which she was

4:24

talking about like our ghosts

4:27

rests on a

4:29

cell that little last their i think

4:31

it's because ghosts isn't perfect

4:33

word for what you're describing the

4:35

people at unallocated the spirits the dead

4:38

powerful the don't mess with them

4:40

they

4:41

started bothering people not long

4:43

after the kuper island school closed in

4:45

nineteen seventy

4:47

we hadn't and the mildest school

4:50

and , beginning to do

4:52

some development around there so

4:55

so my thought was

4:57

they were afraid and

4:59

so they were reaching out

5:02

because some people were saying that

5:04

they could seal the get being

5:06

patched like physically touched touched

5:08

on their shoulder and

5:11

i'm they could

5:12

the sense that there were ah

5:18

like appearances than

5:22

children looking in their windows

5:24

the windows of the houses and

5:27

damn people here crying

5:32

and some like hollering

5:35

and there was also

5:37

some blaster but

5:39

mainly it was sam and

5:42

will set anguish i guess i'm

5:44

from the spirits

5:49

did you think it was haunted

5:56

it

5:58

didn't do is disturbance

6:01

it's not so much i'm

6:04

a hunting as as

6:06

a presence you

6:09

know they were scared we

6:12

we needed to let them know

6:14

that we're we're here to help

6:18

if you're indigenous i don't need tell you how

6:20

kuper island and all other residential

6:23

schools were like bombs in our families

6:26

the podcast bears witness to a lot of

6:28

stuff you've left maybe

6:30

and silence trust me

6:32

we're gonna name some names

6:36

those of you who aren't indigenous even if you

6:38

think you know how bad it was he

6:40

may only heard sanitized version of

6:42

events recently

6:44

the buried truth of residential schools

6:46

got lot harder to ignore the

6:50

spin at another discovery of unmarked

6:52

graves and graves former residential school

6:54

and b c neighboring

6:55

first nations communities found out about

6:57

the grim discovery in news letter posted

6:59

online on monday morning the pinellas

7:02

had tried says it has found more

7:04

than one hundred and sixty

7:05

unmarked grave an area near the

7:07

former cooper island this

7:10

is a story about a so called school

7:12

that as soon as torrijos it's been called canada's

7:14

alcatraz about

7:16

three children who survived and

7:19

one boy you did the

7:21

know families trying to heal

7:23

in community that says it's time everyone

7:26

knows what really happened at kuper

7:28

island slightest ,

7:31

but but like bathroom

7:33

that will never go away i have never seen

7:35

such abject such that

7:38

what i that that and i

7:40

have never seen such as evil

7:43

as what was in that man psycho pass

7:45

and sociopath raise children

7:48

in confined space that

7:50

has everything to deal with why children

7:53

are missing and murdered condescend barrels

7:55

are kind of for a reason people

7:57

do very no money would have to know about

8:00

this is kuper island episode

8:03

, school they called

8:05

alcatraz the

8:12

i'm winding down the vancouver island i was

8:15

with my produce during

8:27

wow

8:29

morning so we're seeing either the books

8:32

sunrise

8:41

i lived in bc for years but the

8:43

largeness everything here still blows me away

8:46

think , cedar trees and orca

8:48

whales these are the traditional lands

8:50

of the penelope tribe part of larger

8:52

group known as alchemy them are cool

8:54

sailor speaks speaks

8:57

and super penelope

9:02

how

9:02

long does it take to get over

9:07

analysis is a whole can mean i'm word

9:10

was the original name for the island but

9:12

then british settlers renamed it after naval

9:14

officer captain kuper then

9:17

an eighteen eighty nine they plunk school

9:19

down the middle of the island named

9:21

after the same guy generations

9:23

of hope for mean i'm children were forced go

9:25

there

9:30

the morning those

9:43

kids made their way through the choppy waters

9:46

of the sailor see like we're doing now

9:48

obey , in a tiny boat probably

9:51

crime for their parents parents

9:53

knowing where they were going or for how long

9:56

a lot of them never came home

10:01

how did they die where

10:03

they buried and why of their

10:05

graves gone unmarked for so long the

10:09

canadian government and the catholic church

10:11

of never properly answer those questions

10:17

as

10:19

we roll off the ferry the high school kids

10:21

line waiting to leave the island

10:25

the walk up the hill

10:26

everybody you know in the lineup to leave

10:28

the island that , us

10:32

about yeah

10:36

obligatory teenage hoodie island

10:40

less

10:42

repeating it little note that he said

10:44

they didn't miss

10:48

my family as are getting on a very new

10:51

other ones are getting off center the travis

10:53

and very popular

10:58

that's

10:58

wonderful we've come see walking off

11:00

the ferry raymond tony charlie

11:03

he , by tony tony

11:05

hawkes out tony walk up the hill with him the

11:08

pretty typical rainy day it is

11:12

but i know the river is real low rate

11:14

know sam ,

11:16

gonna come up pretty soon so we

11:18

need the rain rain

11:21

that very for twenty seven years some

11:24

to work everyday

11:28

tony was the social services manager for

11:30

the connecticut tribe is retired

11:32

now and in his early seventies he's

11:35

a survivor of the cube rolland school and

11:37

a little wobbly on speak the

11:41

top of the hill we meet up with tony's younger

11:43

brother james also a survivor

11:46

he's standing by a beat up f one

11:48

fifty truck this your job smear

11:54

yeah

11:57

and i kinda like every thirty three fifty

11:59

eight

12:00

models yes sir tristram

12:02

with hard gas couple of this isn't

12:07

james is kind of man's man and

12:09

home as just few minutes drive from where

12:11

we're standing on the other side the island

12:13

because lives here the school grounds are simultaneously

12:16

no big deal and minefield of

12:18

childhood memories you

12:21

pass it so many times as

12:24

, cover that up we exist

12:26

i give give a it that

12:29

skyn go over to heal it

12:31

that moon day his car's santa

12:35

escargots place as the

12:37

injury the

12:39

community tore the school building to pieces

12:41

and nineteen eighty then burned it

12:43

to the ground

12:45

james and tony have agreed show me around

12:47

the old site either of those sector

12:49

so it here yet or the concrete all our

12:51

country get together still some step

12:53

fear read here from the residential go wow

12:56

they really are so yes this yes

12:58

this steps to go after the school buried

13:00

up to different yeah

13:03

the cement stairs are now overgrown with moss

13:06

but they lead to long wooden worth it still

13:08

runs out to sea this is

13:10

where the boats used to unload hundreds

13:12

and hundreds of children i'm alchemy

13:14

them communities up and down the coast

13:17

remember some enough for a walk can ask

13:20

foreigners around , send

13:23

send to the fairing was very i'm

13:26

very different we

13:29

had to i get off to fair and we walked

13:31

up the steps here great

13:33

, the top would have been the entrance

13:36

entrance those looking at this big red

13:38

brick building and building

13:41

, which is in our what that is ugly

13:43

building boom you're reading middle of nowhere

13:45

because it's only ten a building you seen the city

13:49

the

13:50

time we , know what ricketts

13:52

meant to wager know what was

13:54

in store for us we

13:56

didn't have didn't they

13:59

were looking

14:00

gothic cathedral like institutions

14:02

it was three stories tall and it

14:04

had a bell tower large white cross

14:07

it

14:08

was always manicured lawns were always

14:10

mode and all the hedges

14:12

yeah has as well trimmed was

14:14

beautiful look and place but

14:16

looks don't mean nothing

14:20

the flowering azaleas fruit

14:22

trees and manmade pawns were attempt

14:24

to impose order on white settlers

14:26

considered an unruly wilderness

14:29

but the facade was hiding all

14:31

kinds of okay

14:44

so just turned my right there a is

14:46

, the the

14:49

a incinerator was it was basically

14:51

a a fuel tank they cut in half

14:53

and the utilized part that

14:55

part for what burden and all the cardboard

14:58

and the would refuse from the school

15:00

i have

15:03

one of my friends brought me here when i

15:05

started the school showed

15:07

, this field drummed always hear the

15:09

incinerator incinerator

15:11

he was saying this is where they they

15:13

burn all the little children's the little the

15:17

that are born they were thrown into were

15:19

incinerator and

15:21

they were i'm burnt

15:24

there so

15:27

did they are those stories that you had heard as well damn

15:29

song aggressive

15:32

, nuns were quelling screen said recognized

15:34

no signs of pregnancy

15:37

and whatever and they would would

15:39

child important it important disposed

15:42

of very unhealthy

15:44

manner

15:48

yeah i

15:50

, very young but but

15:52

was isn't ah like you

15:55

know it's just it's

15:57

just unbelievable they here because

16:00

would do that who were babies so

16:02

, always stays in my mind because

16:04

of the way he told me his

16:07

body language and

16:09

his voice you

16:11

know because ah

16:14

the voice was real their expression

16:17

all the words were real and

16:21

it's a fact to in is something that he

16:23

knew and something that he

16:25

wanted to share with me so that

16:28

a a good so hard to believe

16:30

you know anybody can do that too little baby

16:34

yeah i think that's pretty difficult to

16:37

improve ways that's one

16:39

of the things itself

16:42

it it seems like we always will hear

16:44

stories even today will hear stories

16:47

from other survivors are and

16:50

, hear them about what happened

16:52

happened them more what were involved in

16:54

a so about here as

16:57

i said they whispered these horrific stories

16:59

whispered these other for years

17:01

survivors from other schools told truth

17:03

and reconciliation commission the same thing

17:06

the fetuses and babies thrown

17:08

into furnaces

17:11

he said i

17:14

, that's

17:16

, that's as

17:18

really disturbing story

17:21

it is but that at some

17:24

at to fact of life

17:27

there

17:27

going to school a camera

17:29

school and know sanders hadn't sanders

17:32

had story

17:35

it's not a fabricated stories not a made up

17:37

stories soda hearsay

17:40

story

17:43

you know did you

17:45

kind of the just acknowledge that you like you

17:47

like you like

17:49

proving it might be hard part

17:52

, it is on the way where

17:54

people live some it's a vocal

17:56

history that sour we always have learned

17:59

from the words were

18:01

shared over and over and over it seems

18:03

like they were repeated but that becomes

18:05

implanted me your mind it becomes

18:07

implanted in new south

18:11

we keep walking past a line of

18:13

gangly and twisted apple trees

18:15

remnants the old orchards that one spread

18:17

out all around school we

18:20

, and front of couple of new houses

18:24

there was there along here for long the

18:26

feel fear

18:29

well when when always walking with them

18:31

he stopped here in , point

18:34

military that was here hold apples

18:36

from they were great big apple says says

18:39

he said he this

18:41

is where they put some of the baby's underground

18:44

they were buried here under buried trees

18:47

and that's what he told that's you know buried

18:50

under the tree the apple tree so

18:53

still very difficult

18:57

the can't imagine what it would be like for

18:59

a child I hear that kind of thing. His

19:02

stories would be dismissed as hearsay in

19:04

journalism or law, but these

19:06

secrets shared between children

19:08

seemed too evil for children to imagine

19:11

the stories. Persist

19:13

passed down generation truths,

19:16

that refused to stay buried.

19:38

What's

19:39

a the place you've always wanted to try? While you're

19:41

there, sharing plates with that

19:48

good when you're with a Max, it's not

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if it's going to happen but when American

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next to him on cbc listen wherever

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you get your podcast

20:24

as we walk along i can't get over how

20:26

much community lies the here and now

20:28

happens on top of the old side of

20:30

kuper island residential school survivors

20:33

potential triggers line every direction

20:36

this road was not here why we're

20:38

going to school here the wouldn't what we're standing

20:40

on right now was the school grounds

20:42

yeah that is rotors as

20:45

, as a new rome okay so

20:49

community members line up to the ferry hear

20:51

their new buildings everywhere and addled

20:53

everywhere and daycare along

20:55

house where they meet for ceremonies are

20:58

built where the old schools used to be

21:01

i am community is now grown up around the site

21:03

brighton what's it like free to walk through here

21:07

the me is very disturbing so very disturbing

21:09

thing all

21:12

, atrocities led the

21:14

hurt the sorrows that was

21:16

in his ground and there's

21:19

gotta be some good

21:21

good how free spirits brought back

21:23

to these lands because these

21:25

lands all whole lot of pain rates

21:27

now they whole lot bad memories

21:33

mack when james was the tribes hell's director

21:35

there were two rooms in the health center that

21:37

were perpetually cope the

21:39

matter how high they turned up the thermostat

21:42

the do wrong sir lower

21:45

, weird things it going on in your

21:47

people get chilled didn't endorse

21:51

two rooms would never heat up

21:53

the band called in technicians to check

21:55

the fence everything seemed okay the

21:58

analyzed the walls were radar guns nothing

22:02

no one could explain why was always so chile

22:05

here's what james and everyone else newshour

22:08

those two rooms were built on top of what

22:10

used to be a girl side of the school

22:13

whiny going in a room as

22:16

, unexplained

22:19

the doctors and nurses at we had never

22:21

my was so the presence in

22:23

there and a weird thing is i was

22:25

happened in those in new

22:28

low things things drop things things

22:31

counter , onto

22:33

the floor so

22:35

we always onto with those saying

22:37

they before the caused

22:39

sensation saying he would cause an experience

22:43

but they still come

22:46

up and say

22:49

goes means the west world never

22:51

talks like that eight

22:54

games is struggling to describe these ghosts

22:56

just like joe harris the former chief was

22:59

you'll said haunted isn't the right word to explain

23:01

the restlessness of the spirits the

23:05

inelegant residents weren't the only ones feeling

23:07

unsettled by it all the

23:09

said every winter invites would go out

23:11

calling holcomb mean and people from far

23:13

and wide to the ceremonial dances lots

23:16

of one come because

23:19

to get to the longhouse for the dancers

23:21

are held the have to pass by

23:23

where the residential school used to stand the

23:26

out people knew why people

23:28

were not next ah accepting

23:30

the invitation states

23:32

such bad memories about what

23:34

happened there some

23:37

so people can understood

23:40

that they were why they weren't

23:43

coming to accepted

23:46

invitation to a big dance because

23:48

of even though you torn the building down school

23:52

was still part of landscape the

23:54

school was still part of the land

23:56

keep there was stuff still buried

23:58

under the ground that was some

24:00

hard to dress the at

24:02

school

24:04

their memory was so strong

24:06

about what had happened there

24:11

it was it was still real

24:16

why do they keep building their that

24:18

just as they didn't have a choice community

24:21

was growing and needed housing the government

24:23

specifically the department indian affairs

24:26

gave them no alternative but to develop

24:28

the old school grounds

24:31

there is more land

24:33

where the development can happens

24:36

but it's just say when when you're talking

24:39

to indian affairs and they're saying

24:41

there's already water there there's already

24:43

you know it's already been smeared

24:46

cleared there so that's

24:49

the best place to have it so that's

24:53

that's worth the housing development

24:56

to play

24:58

the know like it was trying it's best move

25:01

forward but how could they when

25:03

they landscape was littered with such awful

25:05

members though

25:07

a long time before anyone else was really

25:09

paying attention to hidden graves at residential

25:12

schools the community took matters

25:14

into it's own hands then

25:16

turn the technology

25:19

america a maple tree there

25:21

in a corner the girls side match where they

25:23

find one of the babies born so

25:25

is very very when they're doing

25:27

they're grounds danny ground

25:30

penetrating radar the

25:32

never get started to work with a team archaeologists

25:35

about eight years ago they wanted

25:37

to dig foundations without worrying about

25:39

disturbing unmarked burial and

25:41

wanted to piece together what happened

25:44

to the children never made it home

25:47

on the radar started locating graves

25:49

some marked some not it

25:51

brought all the pain backed up

25:54

to the surface now the school

25:56

at devastated families

26:01

well your story here on the race willow

26:05

trees are just back

26:07

, way about fifty feet were the sinus

26:10

is said they had that das said

26:12

color that wire mesh

26:15

it was around the whole school grounds

26:17

and a , of a few

26:19

when they came the island they were the

26:21

lobby to go inside their to

26:24

see their children a the

26:27

game and tony the kuper island school

26:29

was a generational curse their

26:31

mother was sent there in nineteen thirties

26:34

james toney and for their

26:36

brothers and sisters in the nineteen sixties

26:39

they weren't allowed to care for each other or

26:42

mod

26:44

no we never saw them at all of

26:47

our i can be were separated from each

26:49

other phone or schedule so we

26:51

never would join to said movie

26:53

night when soil every two three months that

26:55

movie

26:58

lately kept as separate they

27:00

did a damn good job or separate ness

27:03

families and

27:05

even brothers that

27:07

lived or died were netfront and boys

27:09

borden dormitory say

27:11

made sure they kept separate it

27:17

guys who aren't that much different

27:19

an age hiromi what two

27:21

years eight months with fourteen months

27:24

but then you hardly saw each other at

27:26

all hours see and i was meant to be idiot

27:28

so they do it where i was

27:30

earnest

27:31

the second floor tony was on different

27:33

sorts remain calm engineers

27:35

juri voice as have forces those those

27:38

lord did that make us as activities

27:40

different times activities for them why

27:42

did they do that the

27:44

doctors destroy family

27:46

destroy fat been fat d have d have that's

27:50

exactly why canada's first prime

27:53

minister john macdonald created residential

27:55

schools the separate children

27:57

from their quote savage parents there's

28:00

an all out war on indigenous families

28:04

in many ways it worked and when their

28:06

mother was murdered on streets of seattle

28:08

they ended up orphans

28:11

i guess deep down and

28:14

, close to my to my sisters sisters

28:17

one of my younger my is similar

28:20

values and relationships were really broken

28:22

down really a by their residential

28:24

school and off said

28:26

something that something don't have good every

28:28

be repaired don't

28:33

i he just put your hand

28:35

on on james's back

28:38

here , noticed that and and

28:41

and what do guys went to

28:43

at school you are close i can

28:45

see that here here for here but

28:48

you said you had to leave had to work hard to

28:50

that because

28:53

we we can have parents were

28:55

the surface many couldn't destroy

28:57

that would have me that in half me

28:59

we have is how

29:02

love and

29:05

survival

29:10

the only and james survived water

29:13

children didn't

29:15

the national center for truth and reconciliation

29:18

his latest count for the number of

29:20

children who died at canada's residential

29:22

schools is four thousand one hundred

29:25

and eight p and

29:27

counting

29:29

we'll never know much about most of them we

29:32

won't know what those kids wanted to be when

29:34

they grew up we won't hear

29:36

about their dreams but

29:38

there's one boy who died cube or island

29:41

who james and tony and others want

29:43

us to know about their classmate

29:46

richard partly because

29:48

he was a really kind and gentle kid

29:50

a lotta people told us that they

29:53

also can't forget him because the way he died

29:55

was so disturbing it

29:57

marked an entire generation of survivor

30:00

over fifty years later

30:02

they still whisper about what they think happened

30:04

to him the mystery

30:06

of his death is one the big question marks

30:09

the keeps the community hurting and

30:11

where he died is yet one more

30:14

place community members as by every

30:16

day

30:19

the gymnasium with here and left

30:22

prettier up on the so he'll year he

30:24

, all bar they converted into

30:26

the gymnasium for their schools

30:30

and that's where the young fella hung himself

30:32

and

30:34

they

30:34

said that ah

30:37

, hung himself guess his parents fair fight

30:39

net own when he was she that

30:42

that a good it since have christian

30:44

families out the forever

30:46

happy and he said

30:48

he underlined many that passes

30:51

in the in this is hop

30:53

on his parents on be it

30:56

was should totally wrong a total

30:58

lie that's what they told yes

31:00

total yes

31:06

an upcoming episodes of uber island

31:09

we find out more about day richard

31:11

died and why some consider

31:13

the official story a lie

31:18

some of the i'm catholic

31:20

nuns and brothers took the children

31:22

up their debut the body said

31:24

they have two kids to see the body

31:26

yes there to go up and look at

31:29

that yeah

31:31

the meet richard sister belby who

31:33

can't forget her last phone conversation

31:35

with her brother

31:37

we're talking and and i'll sudden he says

31:39

you know what says i can't wait to

31:41

get into this hellhole when i get outta

31:43

here i'm going tell everything and that was the

31:45

last time we heard from him

31:47

then we learn more about what life

31:49

was really like on the boys side

31:51

and the terrifying secrets the children

31:54

were forced to keep

31:56

you could hear him to bed squeaking auto

31:58

in dormitory but everything

32:00

in your sleep it the next morning

32:02

the poor guy could only watched but

32:04

nobody said not death as if as

32:07

if religion tonight

32:12

uber island

32:14

is produced by martha troy and and jody

32:16

martinson and hosted by me

32:18

duncan mchugh or senior producer

32:20

is jeff turner coordinating

32:22

producers roasting i have mixed

32:24

by michael caetano and li roosevelt

32:27

and are of neuron as director of cbc

32:29

podcasts the

32:32

music by cb one art

32:34

by elliot whitehill heights

32:36

, to make which to the penelope

32:38

elders committee joe harris james

32:41

and raymond tony charlie bobby

32:43

sam steve sweet off and

32:45

we raise our hands to make charlie for

32:47

all his help all his away

32:49

before we got air

32:54

if you need support you can access emotional

32:57

crisis referral services by calling

32:59

for twenty four hour national indian

33:01

residential school crisis one

33:04

eight six eight six to five

33:06

for for one night or

33:09

from more resources on canada's indian

33:11

residential schools go our website

33:13

cbc dot c a slash kuper

33:16

island and ,

33:18

you like this episode please help

33:20

others find it by rating in reviewing

33:22

us us which is in diced

33:25

thanks for list

33:43

that was the first episode of cooper

33:45

island you can listen to more on the

33:47

cbc listen to app and everywhere

33:50

you get your podcasts for

33:52

more cbc podcasts go to

33:54

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