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card. Kroger, fresh for

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everyone.

1:10

Carmel

1:27

way back on episodes 164 and 165. So

1:31

we're going to release those so you can revisit

1:33

those. And right now, if you go

1:35

to Netflix, there is a new series

1:38

about the Waco siege that

1:40

is definitely worth watching. So it's something that we

1:42

definitely don't want to forget. It was one of our more serious

1:45

topics that we've covered and something

1:47

that I think everyone should be familiar with. So

1:50

we're

1:50

revisiting that this week.

1:52

And today is the Brancifinian

1:54

cult and the rise of David Koresh.

1:57

They

1:57

say I'm disturbed. You're

2:00

setting an incredible hysterical panic split.

2:02

I think we're getting into a weird area here. You

2:06

deadly fools are not training! It's

2:08

hysteria. You can't

2:10

handle the truth! The truth is free.

2:14

This is hysteria 51. We're

2:17

here! The truth is out there.

2:21

It's alive! But you won't find it here.

2:23

They're coming for you. Look! One

2:25

of them now. Welcome

2:32

in hysteria nation to the podcast that

2:34

doesn't have a cult secretly funding us. Just

2:37

go for its Patreon sniff money. This

2:41

is a stereo 51. Then why the hell

2:43

do you keep dipping into my bot boost profits?

2:46

One

2:46

people are dumb and they buy that crappy make. I'm gonna

2:49

get that out right off the bat. Two, once

2:51

someone smells go for it, there is zero

2:54

chance of repeat business. I don't like you,

2:56

but you have a point. That other unfortunate

2:59

voice is Conspiracy Bot, a resident

3:01

robot who is supposed to help the show.

3:04

And I think I've said this week

3:06

after week, he doesn't. No one

3:08

likes you. No one likes you. Sweet comeback.

3:11

I see those improv classes have paid for themselves.

3:13

I don't go to improv classes. I just leave

3:15

the house to get away from you. So it's a win-win,

3:18

and I thank you for that.

3:20

Moving on. So getting into this

3:22

week, because it's a doozy. We got a we got a two-parter

3:25

part one this week We got a returning

3:27

guest and a newbie this week C-Bot

3:30

and they're both more educated than you are $13 says

3:33

I can take them in a knife fight or rap battle.

3:35

I spit bars and cause scars Are

3:38

you done? For now. Anyway, like I was

3:40

saying, let's welcome back to the

3:42

show. I think you're pretty familiar

3:45

with this song. His name is... Come

3:47

on Kevin! Kevin! Kevin! Kevin!

3:51

Kevin! Kevin! Kevin!

3:54

Kevin! Kevin! Kevin!

3:56

Kevin!

3:57

Aaaah! Argh!

4:00

Wow tension breaker. Yeah,

4:02

that was that had to come out. So

4:04

what's been up? Oh This

4:08

that the other thing I've been really curious

4:11

about There used

4:13

to be this diner in Waco, Texas

4:15

called the Empire diner Mmm, and

4:17

I had it on a t-shirt when I was a kid and I thought

4:20

it was cool. Was it actually like a

4:23

An ironic one or you had went there and liked

4:25

it I believe my stepmom had gone there

4:28

or something and had it or I got it. Maybe

4:30

I got it at a fucking Goodwill We

4:33

used to buy a lot of t-shirts at Goodwill back in the day

4:35

Yeah, well now it's like that's or

4:37

at least for a while. I was in vogue to do yeah

4:40

Stop putting the hands around your face like that Sad

4:43

times still plugging away Times

4:46

is going doing a lot of traveling for work

4:49

So yeah sad times you can find us of

4:51

course wherever you get your podcast just

4:54

sad space times We're

4:57

kind of on a bit of a break because I am

4:59

traveling so much. I just got here from New York

5:01

today. Literally he came with

5:04

luggage from the airport and then he

5:06

leaves back on Monday. Yeah, flying to Houston

5:08

Monday, yeah. But, well,

5:10

you know, he's been traveling, he talks

5:12

about sad things, so I had

5:13

him come in this week because I just wanted

5:15

a fluff episode that we could laugh at

5:18

and have fun. Yeah, and. And real

5:20

lighthearted. I appreciate the effort that

5:22

you made to go in that direction. I'm

5:24

gonna say you failed. Well, and you're

5:26

not the only one here though, because, you know,

5:28

Mr. Vernon, Mr. David Koresh,

5:31

whatever you want to call him, he was an aspiring

5:33

writer. He wrote some stuff. We have another, no,

5:35

a

5:35

published writer. So he's been on Sad

5:38

Times. If you listen to Sad Times, you've heard him on

5:40

there. And he just had his, his

5:42

new book is out. As we speak like a day

5:44

ago, JT Brown, and we

5:47

also had him on here because he has an interesting look

5:49

at this old case. He is a mental health professional.

5:52

That's why him and Kevin are friends. I

5:55

pay for his services. That's the, God,

5:57

JT, welcome. Thank you. Thank you, Brent.

6:00

Can I say I have bumper envy?

6:03

You have bumper envy? Let me tell you about the months

6:06

and years I've toiled in the Hysteria 51 mines

6:09

to get a bumper. He's got the taste of the gruel

6:12

still on his face. That's right, the gruel is just

6:15

into my beard. That's a beautiful, beautiful

6:17

bumper, absolutely. So tell

6:19

us about your book. Your new book just came out. Yeah, so

6:22

plugged away in it for about three years.

6:24

It's called Scab Among the Stars

6:27

and it's available on

6:29

Amazon either in Kindle format

6:31

for the low, low price

6:32

of $299, or

6:35

the paperback version if you're a hands-on

6:37

type for $18.99. That's me. I

6:39

tell you what, it's awesome too because

6:41

it's about aliens that cross picket lines

6:44

and union disputes in space. Yeah,

6:47

the green Jimmy Hoffa is really

6:49

good stuff. That's a bullface lie. That's a bullface

6:52

lie. Can I just? I

6:54

mean, I read the jacket, that's where my mind went.

6:57

You know, I don't know. I don't know.

6:59

Can I say something to you about the book? No, please.

7:02

I read an early copy of it, an early. Well,

7:05

kind of a finished draft, but close to the end.

7:07

Right. It's a really fantastic book.

7:10

And I'm not somebody who is it

7:13

like speculative fiction often? I

7:15

want to like it, but it's often not. It doesn't

7:17

often draw me in this book. I

7:20

had in a binder and I was carrying a binder

7:22

around with me everywhere. It was a trapper keeper. He's

7:25

more of a seven seals kind of guy. That's

7:27

what he really likes to do. Damn right.

7:29

Fire and brimstone type stuff.

7:31

There is a decent amount of fire, brimstone,

7:34

and child sacrifice in my book. Yeah,

7:36

that's true. Oh man, we're firing on all cylinders

7:39

this week. We just really, we got ringers all over the place.

7:41

Not the ringers like in your Trapper Keeper, where

7:44

you printed out and kept his book, but very

7:46

similar. So where can everyone find it? You said Amazon.

7:49

Yeah, Amazon, again, either Kindle or

7:51

paperback format. Scab among

7:54

the stars. It's the only one of that

7:56

name. Surprise, surprise! I'm

7:58

so surprised. because

8:02

my email is scab among the stars 723. So,

8:06

yep. Yeah, July 23rd was a bad day, wasn't

8:08

it? Yeah. We

8:10

don't talk about that. Okay then. We are gonna

8:12

talk about a tragedy this week and we're probably,

8:15

we're gonna break this up into two. We were talking, we were

8:17

looking at this. The Waco

8:19

is something that is a huge

8:22

story. So we're gonna break it up. This week we're gonna

8:24

talk the cult and the founding and the

8:27

methods to that.

8:28

Next week we're gonna talk the actual siege and

8:30

what happened. Excuse me, Colt? I

8:33

don't know if I would use that term here. I'm

8:35

pretty sure that this is in the book with

8:38

Colt. I saw the picture of them in

8:42

the encyclopedia as a reference

8:44

for the world. And as you know, he

8:46

celebrates the entire Funkin Wagnalls encyclopedia.

8:49

Yes, he does.

8:51

So Waco, David Krasch, the

8:53

Branch Davidians, Seventh Day Adventists,

8:55

all this stuff of gets worked in together.

8:58

So what I'm getting at is buckle up for hilarity

9:00

because this is a funny story. And it's uplifting.

9:03

You're just going to slap your knees. And you

9:05

know, if you love the government, everything is just really,

9:07

uh, it's, I don't know, man.

9:10

There's so much this story, but the siege that

9:13

is so famous that we're going to talk about

9:15

was February 28th through April 19th of 1993,

9:17

26 years ago right now.

9:21

One of my favorite years. What?

9:24

Why? stuff happened that year.

9:26

Janet Reno bursts onto the scene.

9:28

Waco of course. Rodney King testifies

9:31

in court. The Great Blizzard of 93 strikes

9:33

the eastern United States killing 184. The

9:37

West Memphis 3 were tried and convicted. The

9:39

Unabomber is mailing crap. Don't ask

9:41

don't tell. The Great Flood of 93 happened.

9:44

The World Trade Center bombing. The list

9:47

goes on. You are seriously fucked. Why

9:49

is, I don't understand why you allow him on the show

9:51

still. Thank you. Ah, Jesus Christ.

9:54

like it's a if I don't I'm probably

9:56

gonna have to unleash him on society you You

9:58

know, I think he would be a...

10:00

very effective cult leader himself. Do

10:02

you think he's the lamb that could break the seventh seal

10:04

perhaps? Hey Prick, don't steal my lines.

10:09

Do you guys remember the Waco siege happening? I

10:11

do. Yeah, I do too. Yeah, so I talked to

10:13

a producer Lisa, she, I mean, she's aware of it,

10:15

but she doesn't really have a lot of memories of it. This

10:17

was a big thing. I remember a lot

10:20

of it. And I remember for

10:22

whatever reason, that tank

10:24

and instead of a gun, it had that battering ram,

10:27

like ramming into the building. Going into the wall, and

10:29

it looks like the wall is almost paper, because

10:31

of the force of it, and it just kind of crumples.

10:33

Well, and they also, they tore down a bunch

10:35

of cottages that they had there, and

10:38

made that compound, so I'm sure it was probably

10:40

kind of shoddily built anyway, and there

10:42

was tunnels under all of it and everything. You're

10:44

saying the Messiah oversaw something that was shoddily

10:47

built? Well, you're busy

10:49

being the new Lamb. He's

10:51

got those

10:52

spiritual wives, you gotta understand, they take

10:54

a lot of time. You know

10:56

what falls first in the new messiahs coming

10:59

building codes built. Ah

11:01

Yeah, man, you got a lot of Union

11:04

going over there, but hey, you know You

11:06

can turn water and a wine but 60-inch

11:08

between studs just falls by the wayside Well,

11:11

John I imagine that you're probably regretting

11:14

coming on this part You know,

11:16

I I remember the siege as well I

11:18

remember because one of the rednecks

11:21

from our school told me a joke that I didn't

11:23

understand And he said, what's Waco

11:25

stand for? And I said, I don't know.

11:27

He said, we ain't coming out. And

11:31

I didn't,

11:32

at that moment I was like, what does that mean?

11:34

And so then I went in and I asked my parents and they told

11:36

me what was going on. Oh yeah,

11:39

John Thomas and I, for those of you who don't know, grew up together,

11:41

we're very close friends. I

11:43

think I know who told you that joke and I'm picturing it

11:45

in my mind and- The man has no neck.

11:48

Oh,

11:51

no neck Jones. Yeah, you didn't know

11:53

that? Shit. It's the craziest

11:55

thing. This story though, it's so

11:58

infamous because it was...

12:00

Think it's safe to say so poorly managed

12:02

and executed by our government the

12:04

ATF the FBI Janet

12:07

Reno Bill

12:08

Clinton everyone that had

12:10

fingers on it kind of just goes man Well

12:14

and so many people died because

12:16

of it many women children innocence as well

12:18

as officers Oops killed some kids

12:21

as the saying goes that's not a saying that

12:23

should be no no Kevin

12:26

yeah I think you were right about him yeah

12:28

I I've been right the whole time yeah

12:31

I don't you know why I put up with him my bumper

12:35

is he is he the originator of your bumper

12:39

God he didn't have anything to do with that did he well

12:41

I mean cuz if so I would like to maybe talk

12:43

to him after the show he's

12:47

gonna want to talk to you too about his new

12:49

religion that he's gonna be pushing for

12:51

real though 76 people like we said including

12:54

children died during during the siege and fire

12:56

at Mount Carmel. Mount Carmel was

12:58

the location of their compound. And

13:00

before we get into the whole siege and tragedy, let's

13:03

talk this

13:04

week, the Branch Davidians and how all

13:06

that came about. Offshoot

13:08

of the Seventh Day Adventists, we talked about that. Can

13:11

I just say, do you know who a Seventh Day Adventist is

13:13

today? No. Ben Carson. Really?

13:16

Yeah. And what was it? The

13:18

Egyptian pyramids were- Grain

13:20

silos! Joseph put his grain in there. Yeah,

13:23

well, I don't know if I need to tell you guys

13:25

this you might be confused But the the

13:28

branch of idioms aren't a groovy party time offshoot

13:30

No, the I say Adventist is Adventists

13:33

is how they say it

13:34

isn't it correct a dentist. Yep. Yeah

13:37

branch Davidians guess

13:39

what yeah, I already said it. It's

13:42

a religious cult Yay!

13:46

That's the religious cult. I

13:49

guess there's that many of them. Well, you know, we're

13:51

not chopping up balls off and going to sleep. Does that play

13:53

whenever someone would go into the church? Every

13:56

time. It's like you're entering a CVS.

14:00

Pretty much. They made, they checked

14:02

your pockets too to make sure you had it gone. As

14:04

opposed to home. But the thing about this cult is

14:06

like so many, oh so fun ones, this

14:08

was an end times group. This was very

14:11

much a, this is the type of

14:13

group that I think of when I think of

14:15

Polter guys, the guy from Polter, like, come

14:18

child, come with me, are you

14:20

lost? Are you scared? Except

14:22

for he was in a rock band and he banged a

14:24

lot of broads. So Brent, can you give me

14:26

an example of some happy, non-end

14:29

times cults

14:30

that just think things are going to keep going and it's

14:32

going to be golden forever? C-Bot has a pamphlet

14:34

that's true. Okay. If you would be interested

14:36

in. Okay. Gotcha. Yeah,

14:38

right? Like, I guess there are probably cults. Like, what

14:40

are they talking about? The guy from 30 Seconds to Mars, what's his name?

14:43

The actor. Yeah. Jared

14:45

Leto? Jared Leto. Now, he's like,

14:47

they're saying starting a cult. Oh. Having

14:50

PB's dressing in white robes and talking to people on

14:53

a beach and you can go see him. So you're saying he grows tired

14:55

of writing nickel and dime science fiction and the way to make

14:57

real money is to start a religion? That is the

14:59

best

15:00

way. It's gonna be called Jared

15:02

Leto-ists. Leto-ists?

15:05

Yeah, they're gonna. Excuse me, guys. That'd be

15:07

my so-called death instead of my so-called death. Guys,

15:12

can we just please Oscar winner Jared Leto, okay?

15:14

There you go. Thank you. Don't be

15:17

a joker. Get out of here. I'm gonna go about suicide

15:19

school. The big thing about this is this is the book

15:21

of revolutions. we said, fire birds,

15:23

lamb of God stuff. Jesus is coming,

15:26

the end is nigh. It started back

15:29

in 1959 by this guy named Ben Roden as an offshoot

15:32

of the Davidian Seventh-day Adventist

15:34

Church. They practiced some

15:36

strict shit under his rule. Stuff

15:39

like the Sabbath and the Seventh-day, you know, you keep that holy,

15:42

abiding by dietary laws of the Old Testament.

15:44

No caffeine, no cloven hoof

15:46

stuff. That stuff's tough. I mean, I have

15:48

to drain all the blood out of the

15:51

animal before

15:51

I eat it. All the black, all of it.

15:53

And not just for

15:55

fun, for religious reasons. Why not

15:57

both? So then we got in 1929

16:00

Victor Hotev or Hotev

16:02

came up with the Shepherd's rod

16:04

idea. And this was a prophecy that

16:06

he was a divine messenger of God.

16:10

Boom. Ben believed it. The guy that we're

16:12

talking about, Ben Roden, he believed it. And

16:14

they believed that on October 22nd of 1844, God,

16:19

the father and Jesus moved from the throne

16:22

on high, from which they were in, you

16:24

know, judging everyone in the universe

16:26

to the most holy place in the heavenly sanctuary

16:28

in order to fulfill The anti-typical

16:31

Day of Atonement, this is their wording that I'm

16:33

just using here, wherein they were to go through

16:35

the books of records in order to judge the people's

16:38

deeds to determine their rewards or punishments.

16:40

That means they left the throne on high

16:43

and came to earth. I'd just like to point

16:45

out that October 22nd is John Dooley's

16:48

birthday. Thank you. October 22nd 1844? Yes,

16:50

he's very old. Awesome. He claimed

16:53

that his job was to gather, and this is

16:55

a number you all heard, 144,000 people, from

16:58

whom the book of Revelation say will be saved from God's

17:00

wrath at the end of the world. So

17:02

he needs to find these people and he's a group them together,

17:05

getting together, prophesizing that this world

17:08

would be restored. The kingdom of

17:10

David in Palestine and Hutep

17:12

founded the Davidian

17:13

Seventh-day Adventist, changed

17:15

his name to David because that's what you do

17:18

if you're an Indian. And began

17:20

his quest in Mount Carmel. That

17:22

is the place that that became famous right

17:24

outside of Waco, Texas. Mount Carmel makes

17:26

me think a little bit of like a place that would maybe

17:28

be in Candyland. If you're, after

17:31

you make it through like gloppy's area

17:33

and then you go through the candy cane forest.

17:35

Next up, Mount Carmel. And then you're

17:37

on. Oh, that sounds like guts. It

17:40

does sound like guts. It's like a crag, agrocrag.

17:42

Agrocrag, man. This agrocrag's

17:43

fucking delicious. Yeah. So

17:48

what they taught was this investigative

17:50

work finding who is worthy to

17:52

be the ones to

17:54

go to heaven, so to speak, has to begin

17:56

with those who are already dead in order to decide

17:59

who was to.

19:53

David

20:00

Koresh at that time. No, he had a much

20:03

better name before. Yeah, old

20:05

Vernon, and I just love that

20:07

name. That is an excellent name. Vernon, sounds like

20:09

the guy that would have made the Waco joke to you. Yeah,

20:11

it actually was. It was actually a guy named

20:14

Vernon. And- No neck. No neck.

20:16

No neck. So they just handed it over to good old Vernon.

20:18

Oh no, no, no, he took it with force in a gun

20:20

battle.

20:21

You are evil. Yes,

20:24

evil. So gun battle ensues, police

20:27

arrest both George Roden and Koresh,

20:30

but get this, and this is all just, we're

20:32

painting a picture, we're gonna break this down.

20:35

Neither was convicted of charges from that fight.

20:38

Roden, though,

20:39

was imprisoned for contempt of court,

20:41

and while Roden was in jail for other reasons

20:44

which we're getting to, Koresh paid back taxes

20:46

on the compound that was in dire

20:48

need of them.

20:49

Boom, he takes over. I can't wait to talk

20:52

about what they

20:54

fought over in court. It's pretty

20:56

intense. You're going to get to that and it is delicious.

20:59

So Colt, there was just a real quick

21:02

overview. Strict religious

21:05

following, things with coles. Leader

21:07

picks in Jesus who is saved and who isn't. That was

21:09

the power that they were saying. This person has this power.

21:12

So if he was unhappy with you, he could say, you're

21:15

not saving more, you're going to get out. I'm sure there are

21:17

checks and balances though. Oh sure. Just

21:19

plenty of people there.

21:19

Of course there always are in

21:22

coles. Election cycles.

21:24

your diet and all parts of your life are strict,

21:27

structured and ruled over with all these rules.

21:29

And that's an important thing too, that people, you know, they, it's

21:32

not all kumbayaz and love making

21:35

for the people that aren't. Well, it was

21:37

all love making for Kim. And Kim can control, exactly.

21:39

Hey look, he just had to get those 24 something or others. But

21:43

you know, think about this though, you surround yourself

21:45

with these people,

21:46

someone's in control and that control

21:48

grows and grows and grows and that's what I gotta talk

21:50

about. Went on to start cults, we can

21:52

talk about that. Well, you know, you're going to, that's

21:55

an interesting thing. failed artists from Hitler

21:58

to Manson to this.

22:00

to that and yeah, there's

22:02

a lot of, I don't know where that breakdown

22:04

is, but that's gotta be a specific

22:07

psyche type thing. I have a theory

22:09

with no data to support it whatsoever. Well

22:12

then you're in the right place. Right, good.

22:15

How did people fall into this? That's what I wanna know.

22:17

That's what we're talking about. Yeah, so you have the Messiah complex

22:19

right on one end where somebody who maybe

22:21

not at first wasn't going for that, but then they

22:23

see, oh my god, these people are actually under

22:25

my sway and now I will just. Well how do the people

22:28

fall for it? That's what I want to know is

22:30

I could get people, these

22:32

must be people who are really looking for something in their life.

22:35

You know, it's weird, it doesn't, so people assume,

22:37

oh, these are all people that had 10th grade

22:40

educations, and there are certainly some,

22:42

but that whole existential

22:45

hole in the soul, it extends

22:47

to everybody. And so- That

22:49

was part of our graduates, everything were in this, like with

22:51

people that were, something

22:54

missing is an interesting thing. Yes.

22:58

There's no borders and barriers. Yeah, people

23:00

want to be a part of something. And you

23:01

feel like you fit in. And as a former fundamentalist,

23:04

as we talked about on Sad Times, you

23:07

really want answers and cults

23:10

tend to give answers. They don't really encourage

23:12

questions, but by God, they will

23:14

give you answers. And they'll give you answers and it'll be

23:16

a crisp. In two years from today,

23:18

this will happen. This will happen.

23:21

So it's like a black and white view of the

23:23

world. Plus, cult leaders, another

23:26

thing that we kind of didn't talk about, but I think

23:28

it's true, are very charismatic. And

23:31

Vernon was also

23:33

a charismatic gentleman. It's like, it's

23:36

like, oh my God. A terrible gentleman,

23:38

but. It's like Norm McDowell, he's like, everyone wants to

23:40

go back in time and go

23:42

back and kill Hitler. That's Silverton

23:44

Devil. What if I get back there, he just

23:46

weaves the web of lies and he talks so good,

23:49

I just fall for it. He's talking,

23:51

like, you're not supposed to say that, but he was

23:53

a good talker, making fun of how everyone says,

23:55

oh, but he was such a good talker. And the thing

23:58

about Vernon...

24:00

is he actually was dyslexic

24:02

and was not actually a particularly skilled reader, but he had

24:04

an identical memory and could just wax

24:06

poetic on, I mean, whole

24:09

books of scripture. That's a great,

24:11

that's a great part. Let's, let's go to break real quick. When we come back,

24:13

let's talk Vernon, Vernon, Wayne, how

24:16

and how he became David Koresh.

24:18

We're going to do that. Kevin, did you have a similar?

24:21

No, I just holding it apart. Don't

24:24

trust it. We're going to tag that next on Hysteria 51.

24:40

and

24:54

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25:09

Oh, geez. Ugh.

25:15

Ah. Ah.

25:18

That

25:18

was dreamy. That was why I keep growling.

25:20

You're just angry. Maybe you're just you

25:23

love cults. You love

25:25

them as much as Vernon Wayne Howald. No,

25:28

I did not dedicate my life to them. Well, I

25:32

don't know. This guy annoys piss out of me. Well,

25:34

that's good. I think that's a good thing. Yeah. Vernon

25:36

Wayne Howald was born in Houston, Texas

25:39

on August 17th, 1959. That's

25:43

not when David Koresh was born. No,

25:45

his mom was the ripe old age of 14. Yeah,

25:48

is that correct? 15, 15, 15.

25:51

So, real quick, you were talking about

25:53

this. He was intelligent, but he was dyslexic.

25:56

And he had that picture

25:59

memory that he could hear.

26:00

I don't even remember anything. But because he was dyslexic

26:02

and it was, you know, back then, guess what his nickname

26:04

was?

26:05

Mr. Ritardo. That's what they fucking

26:07

call him. And he claims, now this

26:09

has never been put, but he said he was, obviously

26:12

made fun of. He said at eight he was gang raped

26:14

by other boys at his school.

26:17

And that was never confirmed.

26:20

Bonnie Sue Clark, the mother, she was 15, she

26:22

was non-existent. She was a high school dropout.

26:24

Yeah, he was raised by his grandparents? So his maybe? Yeah,

26:27

so she couldn't afford to raise him. so the grandparents

26:29

kept him most of the time. Side note, Bonnie

26:31

Sue stabbed to death in January of 2009 by her

26:34

sister. That is true.

26:36

What? Yeah, no, she was stabbed. Good Lord. She

26:38

was stabbed to death in 2009? Yeah, by her sister.

26:41

Wow. Wow. That's news

26:43

to me, I didn't know that. Seabot coming in with

26:46

the facts. Seabot's

26:48

always uplifting. I think

26:50

his bumper should be wake me up before you go-go.

26:54

I'd rather we just leave him hanging off. Robot.

27:00

He was talking about though,

27:02

as it sounds, he would memorize quotes

27:04

and sections from the Bible and people look back at it. They

27:07

said he would like give these quotes

27:09

and say them, but he was just looking for attention. He

27:11

was just wanting people. He didn't really understand. In

27:13

fact, he had actually become a Christian born again. He was 22 when

27:16

he actually really got

27:18

into the church. He dropped out of school in the

27:20

11th grade at 16. And

27:22

again, people say it was because of that bowling. Wouldn't

27:25

he? Like get out of here, Mr. Rotardo. But even with

27:28

a horrible bullying, wouldn't he also go away for

27:30

hours at a time and pray? Like

27:32

he was really into that or am

27:34

I- It's hard to read. Yeah, so the thing is there's

27:36

a lot- There's mixed messages out there.

27:37

He went first, he

27:40

did turn to religion. At first

27:42

he began as a Southern Baptist, turned a Seventh

27:45

Day Adventist, and

27:47

they say that he was born again at age 22.

27:50

Now what

27:53

that looked like, I don't know. I

27:55

think that that might have been an excuse

27:57

of just getting away from people as

27:59

a young

28:00

engaged they said because they also lied

28:02

a lot. Was another thing. What?

28:05

No, he did not. Mied

28:07

a lot, I mean, as far as like, you know, things like

28:09

saying, you know, they don't know.

28:11

Things didn't always add up. No, I'm

28:13

gonna go ahead and say that most of it's probably bullshit,

28:15

I guess. No, okay,

28:17

maybe not most. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, and

28:19

just saying, speaking of bullshit though,

28:22

the Seventh Day Adventists,

28:23

they had some issues with him. And

28:25

so they kicked him out or they

28:28

disfellowshipped he was for

28:30

Bizarre Beliefs and Lifestyle. That's

28:33

actually a quote from Shirley Burton of the Seventh

28:35

Day Adventist World Headquarters. Disfellowship

28:38

for Bizarre Beliefs and Lifestyle, and

28:41

which sent him to the doorstep of Mount Carmel. Actually,

28:44

he came there as a handyman, looking for

28:46

work, and

28:49

not only that though, he was a

28:51

rock star. Your damn right, he was a rock and

28:53

roll star. Now that might be putting it

28:55

a little heavy-handed. He played music. You

28:57

know, I listened to him, he didn't have bad voice. Oh really?

29:00

You actually heard some of his, really? Yeah, I watched a couple

29:02

documentaries and

29:05

they had him playing music. I mean he just sounds interesting. Later

29:07

he played, he had a band

29:09

at the compound, right? They play all the time

29:11

too? They played, the compound was interesting. They

29:13

were always doing things, they were making money. Yeah,

29:16

selling guns. Selling guns legally.

29:18

Yeah, they had a gun dealer in the group. And the guys who really

29:21

liked him, all the local people.

29:23

C-Bot? Yeah, exactly. Again,

29:26

he was probably extremely charismatic.

29:28

Right. You know, they're

29:31

a little crazy and they smell like patchouli, but,

29:33

you know, they mow. And

29:35

he also,

29:37

though, was trying to not

29:40

only make it in music, but he also tried to make

29:42

his fortune and fame in Hollywood as well, from what

29:44

I understand. Oh, really? Yeah. And then was

29:47

spurned by that. And then that's when he kind

29:49

of came back into the fold. So we were talking

29:51

about that quote from Shirley Byrne that he was kicked out for

29:54

speaking against the sanctity of family. He

29:56

was a polygamist is one of the things

29:59

that

29:59

she's...

30:00

getting out there, claiming that others beside Jesus

30:02

could leave people to spiritual forgiveness.

30:05

That's the thing we're talking about where we're getting to that

30:07

harder, uh, branch Davidian talk

30:10

where they come up with, guess what? The person's going

30:12

to be here on earth. They're going to make those things

30:14

calling himself Vernon, Jezreel,

30:17

uh, borrowing from scripture reference

30:19

to the avenging one. So

30:21

anyway, he's at Mount Carmel. He gets there,

30:23

the branch Davidian compound,

30:26

every good cult, as we know, they need

30:28

a compound. Oh yeah. A

30:30

layer, one might say. Oh,

30:32

like we said, and he's not

30:34

just there as a handyman. He's a rock and roll

30:36

affixion. I know Kevin,

30:38

if I remember right, you celebrate his entire

30:41

discography, right? Right. He is,

30:44

in my mind, a reprehensible, horrible

30:46

liar and

30:49

to a degree charlatan, but he

30:51

really could wail. You said you like him. You

30:54

said the Beatles could almost live up to him.

30:57

I'm gonna go ahead and stop doing this joke. You

31:00

motherfucker. I heard him on Austin

31:02

City Limits

31:03

once. He was excellent. Uh,

31:07

fuck you, Brent. Hey, hey, I'm

31:10

only repeating what you say. That, shut

31:12

your mouth. Don't run

31:14

this with words. So he moves there in 80,

31:17

80, he moves there in 81, 82. There's

31:21

a little bit of conjecture. It's a 77 acre

31:23

compound outside Waco, Texas. And

31:26

Vernon in a power move,

31:29

this is a heavy power move. He

31:31

starts banging Lois,

31:34

the former leader's wife. Now

31:36

fuck her. She's in her late 60s or early 70s. No,

31:40

she's 77 years old. Wow,

31:43

he's in his late 20s. So the

31:47

wife of former leader, Ben Roden, he's

31:49

banging Lois Roden, 77 years old

31:51

on a 77 acre

31:52

ranch. 77 acre

31:54

ranch Wow hot he did and

31:57

he starts claiming he's getting prophecies

31:59

from and like any cult leader

32:01

in training should, boom, those

32:04

are power moves, all of those. Now

32:07

here's the problem, Lois had a son,

32:10

George, and old Georgie, he didn't like

32:12

this at all because he's cult

32:14

running said religious

32:16

cult. And he's got no need for a stepdad. No,

32:19

no, no, no, especially one. Not one who's probably

32:21

younger than him. Lois,

32:24

if she dies, Georgie wants to lead.

32:26

He's the heir apparent to the Davidian

32:28

throne, But spoiler

32:31

alert,

32:32

old Vernon, he wants to be the leader. He

32:34

sees this as, this is his opportunity to

32:37

take over. She starts

32:39

giving

32:40

Vernon, David,

32:42

I'm gonna keep calling him Vernon because

32:44

he's still Vernon or John too, because

32:46

that's a staunch change. It is.

32:49

Still the time, she starts giving him more and more

32:51

power against George's will,

32:54

I guess I should say. Do you think

32:56

that she really

32:58

had feelings for him? I

33:01

think she liked the attention and liked

33:03

getting banged. And it probably, I know

33:06

that sounds dirty, but it probably made her

33:08

feel like a person again,

33:10

you know? Hey,

33:12

where there's a will, there's a way. And who's

33:14

to say she wasn't just fucking

33:17

Bearcat in the bed. I mean, you

33:21

slap some lube down and she's ready to go.

33:24

I hope George wouldn't say that

33:26

they as the oh, you know around Waco They

33:28

said that old Lois she could

33:30

suck start a Harley and you know,

33:32

yeah, that's just the way they

33:35

can You

33:36

say so she had a chandelier that

33:38

she was hanging from and yeah So

33:43

I said I said she started giving

33:45

a power like yeah, she let him preach let

33:47

him teach to the people and And by 87 there's

33:49

a rift. So good old

33:52

Vern leaves any moves to Palestine,

33:54

Texas. But

33:55

the thing is, this rift, which we're going to

33:57

talk about, a lot of people have taken

34:00

aside. So a lot of the

34:02

followers didn't like George. They move

34:04

with him to Texas.

34:06

There's two Palestine

34:08

and they're living in like trailers and crap out

34:10

there. They got their gats with them. Yeah.

34:13

And so what do you do eventually? When you

34:15

want to do it, you want to get back, you want to

34:17

take control. Will you storm the place in a gun fighting

34:20

suits? But get this guys,

34:22

why do you, you storm your old place?

34:24

You need, you know, as much as you want to do

34:27

it, you need good reason. No, I was reflecting

34:29

on that. The only reason I would storm

34:31

a religious compo would probably be if I thought

34:33

the leader was exhuming dead bodies and promising

34:36

to

34:36

bring them back to life. So there's two

34:38

versions. I was just thinking that. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. There's

34:40

two versions to it and it depends on whose story you're

34:42

gonna take. One is that he

34:45

had been told that George was,

34:48

had exhumed a body from the ground at Mark Carmel

34:50

in an attempt to resurrect a deceased woman.

34:53

The other story is

34:55

that George challenged

34:58

Vernon to prove who was the

35:00

true prophet. He said, Alex zoom

35:02

a goddamn body and you bring it back

35:04

to life to prove you're the prophet. But

35:06

in another power move,

35:08

Oh, Vernon goes, well, guess what? No

35:10

matter either way, I'm called the cops. Yep.

35:12

He calls the cops. That's cold. And

35:15

here's the deal. He called the cops as a directive from God.

35:18

Yeah. Yeah. And he told me he threw out his shoulder,

35:20

which is why he couldn't resurrect the dead. You really have to

35:22

you have to really come oh, yeah, you gotta

35:24

have that that rotator. Yeah He's quoted

35:27

in saying and also stop fucking my mom.

35:29

Yeah I don't know if that came

35:31

through or not, but that that's part of it that

35:33

was redacted from the transcript either way

35:36

Yeah, that is fucking bold. Hey

35:38

Give me a minute. I'm gonna get

35:40

a fucking body and We're

35:43

gonna go razzle dazzle that motherfucker and

35:45

we're gonna see who's the real Messiah here and

35:48

he goes You know what?

35:49

These are my people. I don't want that consecration They're

35:52

desecration of these bodies and

35:54

people go mmm. That is good

35:56

for you you.

35:58

The cops, though. Wait, that's all.

36:00

Well, the cops didn't believe him.

36:02

The cops were like, eh, you know, I

36:04

don't know Vern. I don't know So

36:07

what's he do? He goes in fucking guns

36:09

hot a blazing Yeah, his people charge

36:12

in his attempt to get proof when I

36:14

see search for proof I always

36:16

go in with multiple automatic weapons

36:18

as well when I mean that seems like that's

36:21

the way you'd want to Obtain that

36:23

I don't know why you live such a predictable life. It's

36:25

the religious way. Yeah, that's That's

36:28

right. So they go in there. They're going to see

36:30

what's going on. George is shot in the

36:32

process. This whole

36:34

thing blows up this. This whole

36:36

sex was mommy thing came back to bite him in the ass in this

36:38

two and in the future and not the way he wanted

36:41

it. No, because so the cops come

36:43

in, they're going to arrest everyone. Everything's going on. George

36:46

also during this time, he claims that he got

36:48

his mom preggers. Oh, 77 year old

36:50

mom is pregnant. Yeah.

36:54

And and Koresh, if I remember

36:56

correctly, while I wasn't there, sorry, if I remember

36:58

from my research correctly. She- Good

37:00

cover up. Thank you.

37:02

Had a miscarriage and

37:04

he said it's because she didn't have enough faith

37:06

and that was kind of a way he could spur her. Are you sure

37:08

that's not a professional wrestling story arc? Cause I think I

37:10

remember that from like 2009. Then she gave

37:12

birth but it was only a hand. Yeah, it was a hand. Mark

37:15

Henry and Mae Young. And then it was punted by Snitzky

37:17

into the circle. Wow, that

37:20

was quite a great little segment. So

37:22

he was questioning about this shit though, if

37:24

it was true. to the cops, he said jokingly

37:27

to the police, if I got a 77 year

37:29

old woman pregnant, I am God. And

37:31

I guess that

37:32

quote was even said in kind of like a tongue

37:34

in cheek way. And they're like,

37:36

got him, he thinks he's God. That was one of the things

37:38

they were putting, because they're building a case at this time

37:40

and we're gonna get into that too about the crazy

37:43

stuff that he's doing. Wow, what kind of case

37:45

are they building against you, Brent?

37:47

We don't talk about that until... I'm

37:50

just saying that how often I hear you talk

37:52

about your divinity. Kevin,

37:54

as a Brent's legal counsel, I'm gonna advise that

37:56

he does not answer you on that question.

37:59

heavily go council here. He can

38:03

either confirm nor deny producer Lisa

38:05

is a woman of many hats. Jesus.

38:09

So powers of B claim

38:11

boom. He's God, you know, he say he's got, but

38:13

that's, that's for later. Less than two years later,

38:16

George is not doing well. Mount

38:18

Carmel is losing support

38:21

of spiraling into debt.

38:23

And then for shits and giggles,

38:25

old Georgie finds himself convicted

38:28

in prison in a mental institution for murder.

38:31

Yeah. With an act. A man named

38:33

Dale Adair told George

38:35

that he was the Messiah.

38:37

And in response, he fucking split

38:39

his face open with an axe. Oh, is that all?

38:42

That's all. Oh, I don't know why it had

38:44

to escalate so quickly, meaning putting

38:46

him in a mental institution. Yeah, you

38:49

think that'd be a slap of the wrist in Texas.

38:52

That's the old Texas. Hello. So,

38:55

Roden's in prison and he owns thousands

38:57

of dollars in back taxes. So, boom, Kress

39:00

steps in and becomes the leader of the Branch

39:02

Davidians. I mean, he was a smart individual

39:05

and he was very calculating. And when people

39:07

tried to bait him, he kind of, he took

39:09

that advantage of it. And

39:12

in 89, eight years after his arrival, then, uh, as

39:15

a Branch Davidian, Vernon

39:17

has gained total control over this

39:20

entire group. You know, I think that, and

39:22

I mean this sort of tongue in cheek, but also sort

39:24

of accurately. I think that Georgie was

39:26

playing checkers, but I think that Vern

39:28

was playing chess. I

39:30

hear you. He

39:34

was indeed King. Careful.

39:36

He can move in any direction. The King of Kings.

39:39

Yes. So let's, let's

39:41

go to break real quick because this story as

39:43

we're speeding through it, it gets weirder.

39:46

And when we come back, we're

39:48

going to talk the day to day shenanigans at Mount Carmel.

39:50

Oh Jesus. And spoiler alert, they

39:52

are not cheeky fun shenanigans like mine. Yeah.

39:55

Oh yeah, cheeky fun. That's true. That's

39:58

not correct. I crashed it. I am

40:00

a robot. I am Alpha and Omega. I have

40:02

received a Tom

40:05

Ray's court sketch. It

40:07

is the greatest of all. Oh,

40:10

God. I saw a woman made a pencil

40:12

skirt of that drawing. Oh,

40:16

my God. Oh, Lord. So,

40:18

we're back. We were talking fun

40:21

sketches during

40:24

the break. We know him as David Koresh.

40:27

Yes. I don't know why I'm saying sketch. But

40:29

to this point he's still been Vernon Howell

40:32

and he's now the leader of the cult So he changes

40:34

his name as you do. I don't know why I didn't just

40:36

stick with Vernon Jezreel Well, I'll tell

40:38

you why okay, then and I can

40:40

I can weigh in a little bit on the name

40:43

thing as far as some of the OT History

40:46

that I think gives it real flesh on the bone should

40:48

go for it Why do you change his name? Well, so David

40:51

of course being King David which was

40:53

of the Israeli and

40:55

Judah King of the Jews! It

40:58

sounds like a fucking sports drink. King

41:01

of the Jews!

41:02

That or you're

41:04

yelling out an order at a fucking Burger King. Yeah,

41:06

I'll take... Oh! That was in

41:08

the... what was it? Clerks? He's

41:11

like, I'll take an Egg-a-Mubi muffin

41:13

and a King of the Juice. Alright,

41:17

let's let poor John Thomas finish his point. Totally,

41:19

okay. So, Carresh, interesting

41:22

little riff on talking about and

41:25

talking about the history. So the

41:27

kingdom fell, the Kingdom

41:29

of Israel and Judah fell. And then the Jews went

41:31

into

41:32

what's called diaspora, which is where they're kind of spread all

41:34

over. But the Babylonians noticed

41:36

that there were a disproportionately

41:39

huge amount of people in

41:41

Judaism that could read and write. And that was

41:43

really a useful skill. So they took those

41:46

folks and they essentially- That stick kept them. Even

41:48

to this day, it helps. Reading and reading.

41:50

To be able to read and write, yes. I'm the dissenting opinion.

41:53

So they kept them in

41:56

captivity, slavery, whatever you want to call it and

41:58

they were freed by the Persians.

42:01

So at that point Cyrus is the leader, and

42:03

he surprisingly is this fairly

42:06

magnanimous conqueror that says, well,

42:08

I got no problem with you, go back to take your land.

42:11

Let these

42:12

people go. See, I changed it, not right

42:14

by people, let these people. He's

42:17

embraced as a messiah, and in the Old Testament

42:19

messiah didn't necessarily mean anything divine.

42:21

Yeah, it was just... It just meant essentially someone who saved

42:24

us. Yeah, exactly. And so Koresh

42:26

is Hebrew for Cyrus. Correct.

42:29

Babylonian. So in that story,

42:32

they're kind of the bad guys. Yeah, so the

42:34

Babylonians are the bad guys in

42:36

the Old Testament, and that motif is carried

42:39

forward into the New Testament into the ready

42:42

Book of Revelation.

42:42

Hey, hey. And I don't know if you

42:44

know this Cyrus is also Cyrus

42:47

the Great, he's referred to as is also remembered

42:49

because he chose a form of the traveler

42:51

the last time that goes with the gosarian

42:54

game. Ah, you know. A traveler

42:56

has come. You know, the traveler has come. Shoes.

43:00

Three feet above the covers. Well,

43:04

the reason I asked about the Babylonians is, didn't

43:07

Koresh, and maybe we'll get into this, so I'm sorry

43:09

if I'm jumping the gun, didn't Koresh preach

43:11

that the American

43:12

government was Babylon? Yeah, and so

43:15

Babylon is, like I said, it's

43:17

a motif along with Rome that

43:19

is used commonly in

43:22

Christian circles and sects as basically

43:24

representation of evil empire.

43:27

So it could be used interchangeably. He wrote a really

43:29

upbeat song about it. People of the sun? America's

43:32

Babylon.

43:33

I don't know that song. Babylon. That boy's

43:36

a lot. I went to Rage Against the Machine route, so

43:38

I guess that says a lot about both of us.

43:40

I think it does. Yeah,

43:42

that the American government was Babylon. Yeah,

43:44

and so Babylon is, like I said,

43:46

it's a motif along with Rome

43:49

that is used commonly in

43:52

Christian circles and sects as basically

43:54

a representation of evil empire. So

43:57

it could be used interchangeably. He wrote a really...

44:00

upbeat song about it. America's Babylon. I

44:04

don't know that song. Babylon. That's

44:06

a lot of time. I went to Rage Against the Machine route,

44:08

so I guess that says a lot about both of us.

44:10

I think it does. And there's of course in Revelation

44:12

the horror of Babylon, who's wearing a sash

44:14

of purple, so. Oh, was that like kind

44:17

of like a scarlet letter type thing? Like she had to wear

44:19

it all. So purple was,

44:21

we're going off script. It's the royal color.

44:23

Exactly. Purple's a royal color. It's the Roman

44:26

royal color specifically, so.

44:28

Okay. Well, this has

44:30

been, that was fun. Thank you. You played Roman hopscotch.

44:33

You used to say, what was that? A Roman hopscotch.

44:35

Yeah. Don't act like you don't know. I don't know. I don't

44:38

know. Anyway, speaking of, uh,

44:40

he'd land in the lion pit if you land on the six because

44:44

now David Koresh, uh, who's taking the name

44:47

of King David and Cyrus a great becoming

44:49

David creschel Vernon now is gone because

44:52

not being a total shit state on

44:54

society is, is beyond

44:56

him. And 89 Koresh used his

44:58

power as spiritual leader of this

45:00

group to take several spiritual

45:03

in quotes as they put him wives as

45:06

young, but their relationship was very physical.

45:08

The not spiritual was fucking

45:11

the shit out of anything there. And you know what?

45:13

When you're in a close group and you're, you're,

45:15

you're banging everything, all of a sudden you turn on to,

45:18

you turn to like he did children.

45:20

Now, Kevin, this

45:21

is an interesting We say 12 there

45:24

was a lot of young girls and we say 12 why is

45:26

that what was the legal age of consent

45:28

in Texas? Uh well my rebuttal

45:31

here. I don't have my legal counsel here Why

45:34

are you asking me? No? I'm just kidding

45:38

Would you carry that card with you with all 50 states?

45:42

That's some some C bot level I

45:47

I believe when I was reading about this, it said

45:49

that it was like 14 with

45:51

parents consent in Texas. Yeah, 14

45:54

with consent, they could get married. They could get married

45:56

at 14 with parents consent. Uh-huh. But

45:58

yeah, and

46:00

So you guys can understand that

46:02

this is just to create a new lineage

46:04

though of world leaders. Oh,

46:07

it's not because he wants to. He's taking

46:09

one for the team. Well, wait a minute. Why did

46:11

it have to be the young girl? There's

46:13

only so many women there. Well, I didn't

46:16

read that they had to be virgins for the 24.

46:19

Uh, I know I said, no,

46:22

because he took wives of everyone there that was already a while.

46:24

I know, but he, okay. So

46:26

I guess he needed the offspring. He was mixing his metaphors.

46:29

was 47 or 27. I forget how

46:31

many women,

46:33

I'm sorry, children he was supposed to bear that would

46:35

become the new rulers. Well, guess

46:37

what though?

46:38

People start talking and this raised

46:40

allegations of child abuse, which contributed

46:42

to the siege

46:45

that eventually was going to happen by the ATF.

46:47

And

46:48

the reason why he did this

46:50

is he was interpreting revelations. Chapter

46:53

5, especially verse 2,

46:56

Cresh identified himself as the Lamb

46:58

of God, or the Lamb that mentioned the

47:01

verse. And the actual verse, part 2 is,

47:03

and I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud

47:06

voice who was worthy to open the book and to lose

47:08

the seals thereof him.

47:09

He saw himself as

47:11

the seals.

47:13

Now, do you want to talk? Are you familiar with that?

47:16

Talk to us about that. It's traditionally

47:19

it's interpreted as a symbol of Jesus

47:22

Christ. But not

47:24

for Old David, he thought of himself

47:26

as that lamb and he was therefore Jesus. Yeah,

47:29

so if you read his

47:31

Exegesis on the seven seals,

47:33

which he didn't get through all of it, he only got through I think

47:35

the first one because it was written

47:37

during the siege, he talks

47:40

about that

47:42

he didn't proclaim to be

47:44

Jesus Christ, he thought that Jesus

47:46

Christ failed in his mission and

47:48

that he was the quote-unquote

47:51

Sinful Messiah. Yeah, the Sinful Messiah. Which we'll

47:53

talk about. Which, by the way, do you

47:55

think Sinful Messiah sounds like an

47:57

English speed metal band from the East? Exactly.

48:00

Well, Sinful Messiah, thanks. He's not in

48:02

them. Something that David Koresh would be the least.

48:05

Their hit song, Maidenhead, you know. Maidenhead,

48:08

Maidenhead, Maidenhead. He,

48:11

so yeah, he was interpreting

48:14

that obviously differently, that

48:16

he was that slain lamb that

48:19

would be able to open the seals. Slain lamb,

48:21

I actually saw them open for Sinful Messiah one time.

48:24

That's right. Yeah, so this is fun. Yep.

48:27

And the thing about this is, is when he's now,

48:29

he

48:30

is this Messiah and he's taken on these quote unquote

48:32

spiritual lives. If you own it, it's his

48:34

period. You don't have anything. Everything

48:37

is his. Your TV, your car, your

48:39

wife, your child. He was Lamb

48:41

of God and all things were his period. And

48:44

if you're going to be in that group, you were

48:46

going to abide by those rules. And

48:49

what's crazy is you talk to these people and

48:51

they're like, you,

48:53

they were talking to him. took

48:55

your wife was the only way. He

48:57

deserves it. You know, he's my brother. And

49:01

he separated them, right? The men and the women?

49:03

Well, because he didn't want any funny business. Right.

49:05

And he made the men like get rid of photos

49:08

of their wives. Yeah, he was the only one that

49:10

was able to do that. It's

49:12

not their wife at times. And I mean, obviously that speaks

49:14

to his narcissism on a whole other level that he,

49:16

I mean, when you think of the narcissistic

49:18

personality disorder, you have to understand

49:21

that they They really feel like they're

49:23

sometimes, literally sometimes figuratively

49:26

the center of the universe. And so

49:28

other people's

49:29

desires don't really matter because they're bit

49:32

players. Do they play? Well, I think he

49:34

really believed that some people you look at people

49:36

that are in, you know, look at Jim Jones. Jim

49:38

Jones was a sham. I really think David

49:40

Koresh thought

49:42

that he was in the right or he was helping

49:44

these people in a fucked up way. Kevin and I were

49:46

talking about this earlier, and so I always

49:48

go back to when we talk

49:50

about these type of coal leaders, I

49:53

feel like they fall into one of two branches. They either

49:55

fall into opportunistic charlatan.

50:00

they fall into true believer. And

50:02

I was convinced, especially with the spiritual

50:04

wives, that he was the opportunist

50:07

and didn't believe a word of it. But after

50:09

reading some of his, like the exegesis, is

50:11

really more about him, I think he might have believed

50:13

some of this shit. I mean, I really do. And

50:16

it may have been something where he vacillated

50:18

back and forth. Right. Well, yeah. And

50:21

that's something that they and themselves are like, well, I'm

50:23

having doubt and that's because I'm man and I need

50:25

to ascend past this and things

50:27

like that. We're talking about his wife's. He did

50:30

have one legal wife. Her name was Rachel

50:32

Jones. And she was 14 actually at the time of

50:34

their marriage. That's his own only legal

50:36

marriage that he had. Good night. And

50:38

Crush asked his followers to embrace celibacy.

50:41

We're talking about like you said, he's,

50:43

he nullified their marriages. You're not,

50:45

he took the loan for himself, including

50:48

Rachel's 12 year old sister, Michelle. So he,

50:51

he was married spiritually to

50:53

a 12 year old girl for sure. Now

50:56

some of them, they've been talking to you with some as

50:59

young as 10.

51:00

The problem is when they testified,

51:02

the stories changed and things like that. So

51:04

it's never been for sure as far as that

51:06

goes. I think 12 is hideous enough of

51:09

a behavior. Yeah, I think it's all

51:11

fucking hideous. And I think this guy is so, and

51:13

I texted this to both of you guys after

51:15

doing some research, this guy is so full of shit. Well,

51:18

not to say that he didn't maybe not believe this

51:21

theological shit and have such

51:23

narcissism that he thought he was the one who only

51:26

understood the seals and opened them, but

51:28

he's so full of shit. Well, you gotta understand

51:30

something, if he fucks you, you're

51:32

now in the house of David, and that's

51:34

all that matters. That's just because his name's on the lease.

51:36

Well, and it's also

51:39

all the music they played. You gotta think he was just pumping

51:41

that 24-7. He wasn't listening

51:43

to like. Seals and crawls? Yeah. Ha

51:46

ha ha ha ha ha. He admitted

51:48

to fathering 12 children by several

51:51

wives, though

51:53

other sources say 15, which is a weird,

51:56

weird thing. And unfortunately the 77 year old woman, from

51:59

the end of that, babe.

52:00

He never came. Uh, Snitzky

52:03

kicked it into the, that's exactly how it goes.

52:06

People flock to him though.

52:07

They did. They really did. And

52:10

they were convinced his word was truth and that

52:12

he was the real prophet. This this, you know,

52:14

the, the, the center that they were promised

52:16

or so to speak, he built

52:18

up Mount Carmel to include chapel sleeping

52:20

quarters, gym, swimming pool, work

52:23

area. They had a gym and a swimming pool. They

52:25

had everything. At the same time, he insured

52:27

his empire by protecting,

52:29

installing watch towers,

52:32

brought on an FFL. Someone

52:35

had a federal firearms license that was

52:37

a member, brought them in there, and

52:39

because of that, lots and

52:41

lots and lots of guns. He- Code

52:44

leaders tend to be good administrators, or

52:47

they tend to at least know how to hire the right people

52:49

to be good administrators because- Surround, you know,

52:51

delegate. You can delegate and you delegate

52:53

to the people that are your, that you

52:55

trust. You know, that was the problem is the

52:58

mom before Lois was delegating to

53:00

David when he couldn't really be trusted.

53:02

And George knew that, but George

53:05

had some acts split to do and he got

53:07

ousted. He began to

53:09

build an arsenal though. And this is the thing I

53:12

said, they would go to local gun

53:14

shows, local all over the country, buy and sell

53:16

and trade

53:17

legally. They were doing this to

53:19

the letter. That's another thing you're talking about. They're good

53:21

at things. He was legally doing these. They

53:24

had impeccable records. The mag bag. That

53:26

was the name of the bag. They had a actual

53:28

gun store. And

53:30

the other thing was he was- That was the name of the gun store was maggots.

53:33

Which is very clever. I mean, honestly it

53:35

is. Weapons parts

53:37

were being shipped there. Chemicals for explosives

53:40

for being shipped there. Night vision scopes,

53:42

supplies of lots and lots

53:45

and lots of ammunition.

53:48

And in doing so you start to draw attention

53:50

because everything is regulated. They

53:53

know what you're getting and they also, they,

53:55

they know what you're not supposed to be getting because

53:57

a UPS driver accidentally helping.

54:00

That's what I was gonna bring up. A package opened, and guess

54:02

what? It was little inert grenades and shit

54:04

to make them work. If you

54:07

put them together. Could you imagine being a UPS

54:09

driver, just being like, doo-doo-doo, it's a Thursday,

54:11

I'm gonna go home, I'm gonna have a beer, I'm gonna watch

54:13

what, ER? And actually

54:16

I don't think ER had started yet. But anyway, and

54:18

then grenades and other shit comes out

54:21

of this box. I think as a UPS driver.

54:23

He was playing in utero at the time. The 93.

54:25

That's true. When stuff like that, you're

54:27

an UPS driver, You know, to take the good, you

54:29

take the bad, you take them both. And there

54:32

you have it, UPS driving.

54:34

Those are the facts of life. World's

54:37

never seem to be living up to your dreams of

54:39

your UPS driver. But finally you're finding out

54:42

that you need to call the ATF. If you find inert

54:44

grenades in a box,

54:47

get your legal counsel back on the line, please.

54:50

So seriously though, he starts

54:53

drawing attention to himself

54:55

by outside. The problem is the

54:57

locals liked them. They were nice.

55:00

They were, they were cordial. You know, they weren't the weirdos

55:02

that didn't shower per se, you know, they

55:04

were, they, those folks live in Oregon. Yeah.

55:08

We're in the woods in Kentucky. Yeah. No.

55:10

And so this led all this, this,

55:13

this fire power building, this,

55:15

all this people are wondering what's

55:18

he doing? And then they start looking at his past and they

55:20

started looking at the pass and this all leads to

55:22

the siege and we're going to cover that

55:24

next week.

55:26

We're going to go over some of this that we've talked about and build

55:28

on it, but this guy was a

55:31

smart dyslexic manipulator

55:34

who fucked children.

55:36

So there you go. That pretty much sums

55:38

it up, I think. And there are still people today,

55:40

and I will probably talk about this next week, there

55:42

are still people today who believe

55:45

in him and believe in what the British are doing. There

55:47

are the survivors and then there's

55:49

still other branches of the Branch Davidians

55:51

who It just slows my mind.

55:54

And the theologian in prison that actually

55:56

still writes about him and thinks he's coming back.

55:58

Oh, I didn't know about that. that was one of the, I

56:00

can't remember his name, but I know he's

56:03

in the notes, but. Go forth.

56:06

John, go forth. That's where he is. Prison,

56:09

I wasn't supposed to say it though. I wasn't supposed

56:11

to say it out loud.

56:12

There, cat's out of the back. So,

56:15

we'll get to more next week. It's

56:18

a heavy topic, and we're trying to make light

56:20

as much as we can, so, you know, that's

56:23

what's going on. But what do you guys think? I

56:25

think the best question to talk about on

56:27

hysteria nation this week is, How do

56:29

people fall for cults? Yeah, I still don't have

56:31

a good answer for that. And it is

56:34

a heavy topic. I know you guys invited

56:36

me on a while back to be on the Jamestown

56:38

episode, just dark

56:40

and terrible. That's Jonestown,

56:42

my friend. That's what I meant, sorry, Jamestown.

56:45

You changed the name, you're singing it. James Joyce's

56:47

cult? Yes, uh-huh. A

56:49

bunch of people who really, really have a good

56:51

time on June 16, 1904. Was

56:54

it Euclid? Ulysses. Ulysses.

56:57

Takes place in one day. Just really quick, have you guys ever

56:59

read his love notes

57:01

to his letter? They're real weird. They

57:04

are the most perverse thing

57:07

I've ever, I'm like, this is 1902. My

57:10

dearest whatever. Yeah. He talks

57:12

about how he likes the sound of her farts

57:15

and that he likes the quick little whip crackles

57:17

and. It's funny, Kevin actually

57:20

runs a site called

57:22

BreakingTheAirLock.com and it's about

57:24

two people putting their butts together and farting into one each

57:26

other's butts. Literally, that is for

57:28

some reason a conversation that Kevin had with me earlier

57:31

today. I might have made up the Facebook

57:33

page. Uh, James

57:36

Joyce probably did start it and it's still better

57:38

than a Finnegan's Wake. Not to be confused with Kevin's

57:40

other page, spacedocking.com,

57:42

you can look that up. Please don't look that

57:44

up. Jesus

57:48

Christ, Brent. So, so, David, David,

57:50

David, Brent. Oh, burden.

57:52

Oh, lord. Oh,

57:55

verdant. Oh, lord. Verdant.

57:59

serious

1:04:00

gentlemen. It's it's definitely shaking.

1:04:02

It's the new Monday night Wednesday

1:04:04

night wars. Exactly. But the you know, it's

1:04:07

the WCW and WWF

1:04:10

WWE, you know, that's when it was so much fun.

1:04:12

So this is what that that

1:04:14

whole genre needs. I think and

1:04:16

a little bit of a changing of the guard. So good for them.

1:04:19

So don't

1:04:20

forget, we're gonna be back next week.

1:04:22

That's right. We're gonna be talking about the siege,

1:04:24

more uplifting stuff. You

1:04:27

know, more puppies. Not Fuck the nude,

1:04:29

man. More flowers

1:04:31

and puppies. So with that said, I've been Brent. I've

1:04:33

been Kevin. I've been JT. He's been

1:04:35

conspiracy about it.

1:04:36

Stay woke, meat sacks. Yay! Yay!

1:04:41

It was terrible, it was just terrible. I'll

1:04:44

never get over as long as I live! That's

1:04:47

it for another edition of Hysteria 51.

1:04:50

Jon and Brent will be back next week with

1:04:52

yet more of the unexplained, the unexplored,

1:04:55

and the unheard of... Oh, if

1:04:58

it's unheard of, how will they know about

1:05:00

it?

1:05:00

Anyway, if you want to suggest a topic,

1:05:03

give us your thoughts, or just make fun

1:05:05

of Conspiracybot, that's my

1:05:07

favourite. Join us in our Facebook

1:05:09

discussion group, Hysteria Nation. Just

1:05:12

log on to Facebook and search Hysteria

1:05:14

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1:05:16

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