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Get ready for an unforgettable journey

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as Netflix unveils All The Light We Cannot

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0:47

Hello and welcome to

0:49

another episode of I Weigh With Jamila Jamil, a podcast

0:52

against shame. I hope you're well and thank you so much for

0:54

so many lovely messages about

0:56

my deeply candid and personal episode

0:59

of Ask Me Anything. I really did

1:01

answer everything with as much

1:04

personal truth as possible and I appreciate

1:07

how responsive you've all been. So

1:09

give that a listen if you want

1:11

to just have a sort of one-on-one chat with me in

1:14

the car maybe. But generally

1:17

you've just been such a dream and I'm so happy that you're

1:19

all so happy with the episodes. This week

1:21

is a very, very

1:25

intense subject, but one of the most

1:27

important subjects I feel like I've ever learned about,

1:30

not just during the time of making this podcast

1:32

for almost four years, wow,

1:34

but ever. I had

1:36

no idea that this thing was happening

1:39

in the United States and

1:42

it has possibly changed the

1:44

rest of my life to learn about it now.

1:47

I was told to watch a film a

1:49

few months ago called At Your Cervix. It

1:52

is an award-winning documentary that

1:54

exposes the hidden practice of

1:57

medical students learning to perform pelvic

1:59

examinations.

1:59

on anesthetized patients

2:02

without their consent.

2:06

And we're not talking one or two cases, we're

2:09

talking thousands and

2:11

thousands and thousands of cases

2:13

of this for decades,

2:16

for decades in the United States of America.

2:19

And so my guest, Imagine

2:21

Goddard, has made this incredibly

2:24

brave documentary as a whistleblower who

2:26

learned from the inside that this is what's going

2:28

on and has now made it her life's purpose

2:31

to bring awareness that this

2:33

is happening to people under anesthetic

2:36

without their consent and to

2:39

help legislate against that happening.

2:42

Because currently we don't even know that this is happening.

2:44

We don't know what our rights are and we don't know how to get

2:46

out of this happening to our bodies. This is a

2:49

violation against our bodies. And speaking of violation,

2:51

I want you to just have a little

2:54

trigger warning here that is mentioned

2:57

of sexual assault, because of course there

2:59

would be connotations of

3:01

that feeling when your body's being invaded without

3:04

your consent. But we do talk about that. We do

3:06

have mentions of sexual assault in this episode,

3:08

but we try not to get into it in any way that

3:10

feels very gratuitous,

3:13

of course. And we try

3:16

to just make it as kind of helpful

3:19

as possible rather than traumatizing. But

3:21

I just always have to make sure that you're ready

3:23

for that in case that's

3:24

something you need to opt out of. But this

3:27

is a fascinating episode.

3:29

She's an extraordinary communicator and

3:31

she talks to me about the history of gynecology

3:34

and how the speculum was designed, which some of us

3:36

know, some of us don't. A lot of it happened, again,

3:39

without consent on enslaved

3:41

people who were experimented on in order

3:43

to design the things that we use

3:45

today in modern medicine. And

3:48

we talk about what has been happening, how

3:50

it's been happening and how it's not just traumatizing

3:52

for the patient, who I

3:54

may go as far as to call the victim, but

3:57

also it's traumatizing to the medical student

4:00

who is performing an act on

4:02

someone's genitalia or within

4:04

their genitalia without that incentive.

4:07

That is traumatizing to be forced to do something

4:09

like that and to be pressured by your medical

4:11

school into doing it or being threatened

4:13

that you may not actually have a career then in medicine.

4:16

This is so hypernormalized

4:19

within the medical industry and the only way it can

4:21

stop is if enough of us know

4:23

about it and talk about it and

4:25

help rally against it legislatively.

4:29

And so I urge you to watch the documentary.

4:31

We will be providing links

4:33

on the iWay platform on our

4:35

Instagram, which is at i underscore

4:38

way. And I want you to watch

4:40

this documentary. I want you to listen to this chat. It's

4:42

going to blow your fucking mind. And

4:45

it may actually protect you

4:47

in future from this happening

4:50

to you because she gives me actual

4:52

constructive advice as to how to prevent

4:55

this from happening to you when you are going

4:57

under anesthetic. I'm not trying to freak

4:59

you out about health care. I know

5:02

that especially women already feel so

5:04

reticent because of all the gas lighting and the mistreatment

5:06

and how invasive and terrorizing

5:09

so many of the procedures that we need are. I

5:11

don't want to scare you away. But if anything,

5:13

this will make you feel and literally be

5:16

safer to be armed with this knowledge. I

5:18

care very deeply for you. And

5:20

I feel that there's such a tremendous injustice

5:23

that's just been happening under our noses with us

5:25

having no idea. And

5:27

we have to stop it. And we can

5:29

do that. And we can only do it together

5:32

by knowing about it and then fighting

5:34

it as one. And we have to fight it because

5:36

this cannot continue. I can't fucking

5:39

believe this is going on. So

5:41

please enjoy this chat. I know that sounds

5:43

weird given that it's about quite a terrorizing

5:46

subject. But it is fascinating.

5:49

And she is an extraordinary human

5:51

being. So take a deep breath. And

5:54

please listen to the excellent and vital words

5:57

of Imagine Godard.

6:15

I

6:25

imagine, Goddard, welcome to I

6:27

Wei. How are you? I'm good. I'm

6:30

happy to be here. I just came off

6:32

of the road for a month of

6:34

screenings

6:35

and delighted to talk to you. Thanks

6:37

for having us. Thank you for being here.

6:40

Your documentary has changed,

6:43

I think, like my brain forever.

6:45

It's changed. It's very rare

6:47

that a documentary so immediately has such

6:50

a profound impact on me, but

6:52

I felt very deeply emotional during

6:54

and after. And it made me

6:56

feel like it was

6:59

very important to have you on to

7:01

discuss this subject because

7:04

we need to raise the alarm as fast as possible

7:06

that

7:07

this is happening. Can you explain

7:09

what your documentary at your cervix is about?

7:11

It is about medical

7:14

education. It's about consent. It's

7:16

about it's about racial

7:19

justice. It's about reproductive justice. It's

7:21

really about a lot of things. And we

7:23

look at

7:24

those things by

7:26

showing people the way that medical students

7:28

are learning or practicing

7:30

their intimate exams

7:32

and specifically pelvic exams

7:35

on patients who are under anesthesia,

7:38

who most of the time have not consented and

7:41

have no knowledge that is happening.

7:43

So I'm going to

7:45

I'm going to rephrase that again because I

7:47

know that every time I tell people what

7:49

it's about, they kind of say, wait,

7:52

what did I hear that right? You're

7:54

hearing it right. And so I

7:56

just to clarify, because some people might not

7:58

be familiar with what a pelvic exam is. is something

8:00

about saying it's pelvic makes it feel

8:02

like it's on the outside. You're talking about

8:06

an internal examination,

8:08

or pap smear, or

8:10

procedure that happens without

8:13

someone's consent while they're under anaesthetic.

8:16

And there are multiple medical

8:18

students

8:19

who are taking turns on their bodies

8:22

and they never find out a lot of the time.

8:24

Yeah, sometimes it's one student, sometimes

8:26

it's many.

8:26

It generally happens

8:29

on OBGYN rotations where

8:32

students are, you know, they

8:34

as medical students, they go on

8:36

a variety of rotations so they can figure out

8:39

what is their specialty going to be. And

8:42

so when they get to that OBGYN

8:44

rotation, a lot of times they're going to be in OBGYN

8:47

surgeries where patients have been put

8:49

under anaesthesia and then

8:51

students will be brought into the room

8:53

or they may be a part of the quote-unquote

8:56

care team because they're there to learn. And

8:59

it has been a long-standing practice

9:01

essentially since gynecology started

9:03

that patients that are available

9:06

to medical facilities

9:08

are used for student

9:09

education. And there's nothing wrong with

9:11

students learning from patients. Students learn

9:13

from patients all the time. The problem

9:16

is that there are not clear consent processes

9:19

with this. Patients don't know that this

9:21

is happening. Of course, if you're getting

9:24

a gynecological surgery, they're going to be

9:26

doing some kind of confirming exam

9:29

to make sure they understand where the pathology

9:32

is, what they're going to be doing. The

9:34

surgeon would always do that exam

9:37

before starting a surgery. But then

9:40

having an additional one, two, maybe three

9:43

students come in to do exams

9:45

for their own education, that

9:47

is completely different. And that is not for

9:49

that patient's care. That is for

9:51

those students' medical education.

9:53

And that's where this gets very, very

9:56

dicey. And most people

9:58

just don't have any idea that they're there.

9:59

this happens and because patients

10:02

are under anesthesia when it happens, most

10:04

patients don't have any memory of it, they don't

10:07

realize it's happened to them and that is why

10:09

this has persisted for so long.

10:11

One of the things that I think further

10:14

shocked me, which I didn't think was possible,

10:16

is that this isn't just people

10:18

who are coming in for gynecological

10:20

procedures who are under anesthetic. Some

10:23

of the people in your documentary had come

10:25

in for abdominal

10:28

issues or they'd come in with a broken

10:30

knee and woken up and found

10:32

gauze over their genitals, which

10:37

is how they found out that a

10:39

gynecological procedure

10:40

had been done on them or some sort of exam

10:42

had been done on them even though they have something

10:45

wrong with their knee.

10:46

How has this happened?

10:49

How has this gone under the radar for so

10:51

long?

10:52

I think it's gone under the radar for so long. I

10:54

mean, A, as I said, because patients don't know

10:57

and then

10:59

B, because it's really,

11:03

it's sort of like

11:05

seamlessly included

11:08

in the way that they move students

11:12

through this educational process.

11:14

It's like, okay, you're going to come

11:16

in now and you're going to do this and everything's moving really fast

11:18

and okay, we need you to come over here. Okay, we need you to do an exam

11:20

now. Go ahead and practice this pelvic exam

11:22

or go in and feel this pathology.

11:24

It

11:28

certainly could be a good learning experience to

11:31

experience some kind of pathology as a

11:34

student and to have those opportunities, but

11:37

patients need to be asked for that. Yes,

11:40

sometimes I have heard stories of

11:44

nasal surgery. I've heard stories of

11:46

people having things under their bodies that

11:49

actually have nothing to do with that part of the body.

11:51

It is far more concerning that

11:53

that is happening because

11:55

that indicates something much bigger.

11:58

What I can say at this point after

11:59

having researched this issue really

12:02

for almost 20 years now.

12:04

This is a systemic issue. This

12:06

is people that are in medicine and

12:09

have been in medicine for a long time and

12:11

who might be preceptors for

12:13

students who are guiding them through that

12:15

rotation. They're like the

12:18

attending that's in charge. They

12:21

don't see it for what it is. They don't

12:23

see it the way that patients see it. They just

12:25

see it as what's

12:27

the big deal. This is just part of

12:30

their education. This is part of the students

12:32

or this patient's care and

12:34

why are we making such a big deal about this. But

12:38

it's a very big deal to patients. It makes

12:40

a difference whether one person is examining

12:43

us or three people are examining us and

12:46

it makes a difference for people whether they're asked. There's

12:48

about a thousand things to unpack from what you just said

12:51

but I think first and foremost it's important to illustrate

12:53

that one of the things that is the most disturbing

12:56

is that there is a very

12:59

fine line between sexual assault

13:02

and whatever we would class this as. But

13:04

because the act isn't sexual they

13:06

consider the fact that they're doing it to not be

13:09

an act of sexual assault but it doesn't

13:11

change the feeling for the person

13:13

whose body has been entered and violated

13:16

without their permission. Is that correct?

13:18

Oh exactly. I mean you saw

13:20

in the film the patient stories that we do

13:22

have in the film which part of why it took us a long time

13:24

to make the film was it took so long to find those

13:27

patients. But

13:29

what we see in every single patient

13:31

in the film that shares their story is that they all

13:34

experienced PTSD. They all

13:36

had previous trauma, sexual

13:38

trauma which is common and then all of them

13:41

had all of this

13:43

PTSD that was retriggered

13:46

after this experience which then of

13:48

course led to them not trusting

13:50

their medical care

13:53

and a whole host of other things that they talk

13:56

about. So I think

13:58

it's it's very much

14:01

mimics exactly what they had experienced when

14:03

they had experienced sexual assault. There

14:06

was a new article that was put out this year

14:09

that it was published in a feminist

14:11

bioethics journal that is calling

14:14

this medical sexual assault. And the point of the article,

14:16

it's a 17 page article, it's very well researched

14:19

by Stephanie

14:19

Tillman. It outlines

14:21

why we need to be calling this what it is.

14:24

And obviously people in medicine

14:27

don't wanna hear that. And I get

14:29

that that would be a very hard thing to hear if

14:32

you've been practicing this way for so

14:34

long and didn't see that there was

14:36

anything wrong with it, that's loaded

14:38

language. But certainly if this

14:40

were any other context

14:41

where a person

14:43

was under the influence of a drug, where

14:46

they were unable, unconscious,

14:48

unable to consent, and

14:50

you inserted something into their body,

14:53

that it's very clear that that would be

14:55

a sexual assault. And so I'm

14:58

not sure what it's going to take. I

15:00

hope that my film can

15:02

help really move the

15:04

needle. I mean, that is why we stuck with this

15:07

film for so long and why

15:09

I stayed committed to this mission because

15:13

this does need to change. And I do believe in

15:15

the power of film to raise

15:17

awareness and to make change and we are

15:19

doing that, but it's egregious.

15:22

Most patients really, really

15:25

bristle when they hear this. And

15:28

so I wanna acknowledge that this is a hard conversation

15:31

for many people to hear. And

15:33

this is important because if we aren't speaking

15:35

up and we aren't pushing back and we aren't saying

15:37

that this is not okay, then

15:40

it's not going to change. Yeah, and there was

15:42

something quite telling in the documentary that

15:46

insinuates that they do understand they're crossing

15:48

a sexual barrier in that one

15:51

of the people who this had happened

15:53

to was also a previous victim

15:55

of sexual assault. And she was told by

15:58

one of the attending practitioners. that

16:00

they would never have done it if they'd known her

16:03

trauma history. So

16:06

that's very telling because then they're saying we

16:09

didn't mean to violate you twice. They

16:11

know it's a violation. The fact that there

16:13

would be a double standard for if you've been

16:15

sexually assaulted before means they

16:17

understand that this is therefore a very

16:20

traumatizing and invasive thing to do. That

16:22

to me just feels like an admission

16:26

of

16:28

guilt and accountability because

16:30

they are registering how traumatizing

16:33

it is. And so what are they saying? They want to

16:35

be the person to traumatize someone or violate

16:37

them or enter them without permission for the first

16:39

time? It was stunning

16:42

to me that that was said. Yeah,

16:44

I mean that story is particularly horrible.

16:48

That person was a nurse

16:51

and she was having surgery.

16:53

It was an abdominal

16:55

surgery in the facility where she works.

16:59

And the surgeon doing her surgery is like

17:01

one of the best in whatever

17:04

the procedure was that she was having done.

17:07

So

17:08

not only will they

17:10

just do this to any patient, they don't even care

17:12

if they're their employee. And

17:15

then that surgeon actually when

17:18

she brought this forward to her because the

17:20

resident admitted to having done it and the surgeon

17:23

also admitted to having done it. So this

17:25

was very, very clear. They admitted to

17:27

it openly. And then

17:29

her responses to her were just

17:33

diminishing. She

17:35

got angry with her. She ended up, you know,

17:37

some of this is in the film and some of it didn't

17:39

make it in the final cut. But she

17:42

ended up

17:43

not doing her follow-up

17:44

care for her surgery with her. She

17:46

ended up

17:47

sending her to another surgeon

17:49

because she just didn't want to deal with

17:51

this patient. So she does not

17:53

share her identity in the film because

17:55

she was worried about losing her job.

17:59

a particularly awful

18:01

experience and just the arrogance

18:03

of the surgeon that, you know,

18:05

and as you say, that this idea of like, well,

18:08

if I would have known that you had been sexually assaulted,

18:10

well, then I wouldn't have done it. It

18:11

is ridiculous. It's really

18:15

appalling that someone

18:17

wouldn't see how

18:20

dehumanizing that is for a patient.

18:28

Planned Parenthood is America's most trusted name

18:30

in sexual and reproductive health, as well as the largest

18:32

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18:34

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18:36

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18:39

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18:41

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18:45

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18:47

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18:58

are happening right now. Anti-abortion

19:01

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19:03

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19:06

They are now trying to use the court system and state

19:08

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19:10

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19:13

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19:15

with their supporters, they will fight back with everything

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19:20

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19:23

make your donation. In a recent

19:25

survey by Dove, nine out of ten

19:27

women say they feel pressured to style or wear

19:29

their hair according to society's expectations.

19:32

And that includes Latinas, a community with many

19:35

beautiful, diverse hair types and styles

19:37

who feel that pressure deeply. So as part

19:39

of their ongoing mission to widen the definition

19:41

of beauty, Dove is uplifting Latinas.

19:44

Dove is amplifying their voices and supporting

19:46

their choice to wear the hair that fuels their confidence.

19:49

Dove's My Hair Amimoto movement invites

19:51

Latinas of all generations to show off

19:53

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20:04

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20:09

we can help encourage all Latinas to say no

20:11

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20:14

and yes to styling their hair their

20:16

way, showing the world their true selves. See

20:19

the new Soyo video and find out

20:21

how you can join in on My Hair Amimodo

20:23

at dove.com. How

20:30

is it legal?

20:32

That's I think what a lot of people

20:34

who are listening to this want to know.

20:37

What's the legal

20:37

loophole here?

20:39

Basically when you go in for

20:41

a surgery you're going to sign

20:43

a consent form and there's usually you'll

20:45

sign a lot of consent forms generally but there

20:48

will be some kind of blanket statement that

20:50

is on many consent forms. It's like you

20:53

know you agree that the

20:55

doctors, nurses, physicians assistants,

20:58

yada yada yada, you

21:01

know and other affiliates

21:05

of the hospital may be involved in your

21:07

care

21:08

and it's usually worded in

21:10

a very vague way like that. I've seen many

21:13

of these forms and

21:15

so I think they think well the

21:18

patient is consented

21:19

but that doesn't mean we've just consented

21:22

to anything and to everything. That means we've

21:24

consented to what we need for our own care

21:26

and so I think we can if we

21:29

get really clear about this and that there's a difference

21:31

between what they're doing

21:33

for a patient's care versus what they're doing

21:36

for student education those are

21:38

two different things and

21:41

what we know is that many patients will say yes

21:43

if they are asked but they want to be asked

21:45

and they deserve to be asked. They deserve that opportunity

21:48

and they deserve to know what's happening to their bodies.

21:51

Another thing that's often told to

21:54

students and you also see this in the film

21:56

and some of the stories of the students in the film

21:58

is well you know

21:59

Yeah, yeah, they've consented.

22:02

It's fine. This is a teaching hospital. They

22:04

know that this is a teaching hospital, so therefore,

22:07

because it's a teaching hospital, we can just do

22:09

whatever we need to do for education.

22:10

And that's just not true. At

22:14

this point, most hospitals are

22:16

affiliated with some kind of university

22:18

or some kind of medical school. And

22:21

sometimes it's

22:22

hard to tell whether a hospital is or not. Sometimes

22:25

it's not clear in the name, but there still might be

22:28

students who are working with preceptors that

22:30

work in that hospital that

22:33

are on rotation, even if it's

22:35

not owned by a university,

22:37

for instance.

22:38

So none of

22:40

those things hold water, but I think that's

22:42

really how they've justified

22:45

it for themselves, I think, in medicine. And

22:49

then again, because patients don't know about

22:51

it,

22:51

most of the time they're not going

22:53

to be able to come forward at all.

22:56

But then in the case, like the one you brought up,

22:58

where she did know, and she was told

23:00

even by them that it had happened, she

23:03

spoke to three different lawyers, and

23:05

they all told her there's nothing you can do because there's

23:07

no law in the books. There's

23:09

no legal leg for you to stand

23:11

on, which is why we've begun to work

23:13

on legislation around this. So

23:16

could you give me some practical advice?

23:19

If I or someone listening to this podcast were

23:21

to go in for an operation and I'm

23:24

handed that consent form,

23:26

do you have to sign

23:28

it otherwise they won't do the procedure? Are you

23:31

allowed to amend the consent form? Like what

23:33

are our rights as patients? Can

23:36

I take that language out that says that absolutely

23:38

anyone is allowed to be a part of my additional care?

23:43

Will they come back at me and say, well,

23:45

if there was an emergency, we might need a different type

23:47

of specialist, you're taking out the chance of

23:49

that happening. If you do not consent

23:52

to additional care by the rest of the

23:54

hospital, what can we do to challenge

23:56

that language in the moment when we're there in our hospital

23:58

gown?

23:59

already afraid about

24:01

the fact that we're about to go under. I

24:03

will give you the best things I think we can do. And

24:05

it doesn't mean that it's all foolproof. I

24:09

actually had major gynecological surgery myself

24:11

this summer in an ironic turn of events. I

24:14

had a hysterectomy. And so

24:16

when I went in for my pre-op with my

24:19

surgeon, which you will always have a pre-op

24:21

appointment, ask a lot of questions.

24:24

And so I asked him,

24:25

are you working with students? Tell me how you're working

24:28

with students.

24:28

What is the capacity? What

24:31

will there be students on the team that day? What

24:33

will their roles be? So I always

24:36

ask open-ended questions. I've

24:38

been through this a few times. And so I will ask

24:40

very open-ended questions to see how

24:42

they respond to me first. And then

24:44

I will ask a much more direct question. And

24:47

I will let them know what I want and

24:50

what's OK and what's not for me.

24:51

How do you get that written

24:53

down to make sure? Because it doesn't matter what you say.

24:56

Yeah. Then you add it to your consent

24:58

form. You absolutely put it on your consent

25:00

form. But

25:00

I think it's both the conversation with the surgeon

25:02

to be very, very clear. And then you

25:06

absolutely take control of your consent form. You

25:08

don't have to sign everything. You can cross things out.

25:11

You can write in the margins and

25:13

initial. You can say, I do

25:15

not consent to

25:17

students

25:18

doing

25:23

any kind of exam on me or doing

25:26

pelvic exams or intimate exams on me

25:28

while I am under anesthesia. Or

25:31

if you are someone that wants to be able to help a student

25:33

and you've had that conversation, you can say, I

25:36

consent to one student doing this. Or

25:38

I consent to two students doing this, or whatever.

25:42

That is absolutely your right to do that.

25:44

But I would be very, very clear, be

25:46

as specific as you can be, about

25:49

what you are OK with and what you are not. Initial

25:52

it.

25:52

Any changes you've made on your form, initial.

25:55

And then make it really

25:57

clear with your surgeon.

25:59

Whether that's surgeon will respect

26:01

what patients say or not really, I think a

26:04

lot of it depends on their integrity. I

26:06

mean, it's not historically prevalent

26:10

for women to feel

26:12

like they have the right to not just women,

26:14

but anyone, especially with a uterus

26:17

or with a female reproductive system,

26:19

to feel like they have the right to advocate for themselves.

26:22

It's still like incredibly modern for

26:24

us to feel that we're even allowed to complain

26:26

about pain. But

26:28

I do want to talk to you about the fact that this

26:31

has highlighted

26:33

the lineage of

26:36

the mistreatment of

26:39

those of us with female reproductive systems

26:42

and from the very beginning of gynecology

26:46

and how this actually just perfectly

26:48

tracks. This isn't left of centre,

26:51

this perfectly tracks with the

26:53

entire attitude towards

26:55

this part of our bodies. Can

26:58

we take it back to, because I think a lot of

27:00

people have a kind of vague understanding

27:02

that maybe it was something to do with the

27:05

times of slavery. Can

27:07

you take us back to the beginning of

27:09

gynecology? Absolutely.

27:12

And we have a whole history section in the film

27:14

because people will say to me all the

27:16

time, well, I don't see how this, this is a thing of the past.

27:18

This can't possibly still be happening. How

27:21

is this, how is, as you said, how

27:23

is this legal? How could this be possible? All

27:25

you have to do is look at the history of gynecology

27:27

as a discipline and also just the history of

27:29

medicine and medical education in general to

27:32

understand how this is happening. This

27:34

was done from the very beginning and gynecology

27:37

as a discipline was started

27:39

by one

27:42

very well-known doctor,

27:42

but certainly other doctors, he was not the only

27:44

one, but J. Marion Sims in the South

27:47

had enslaved women who

27:50

were living on his property in basically

27:53

a shack in his,

27:54

you know, behind his house that

27:57

he called a hospital.

28:00

he would perform exams

28:03

on these women and procedures

28:05

and deep

28:07

violations of their body like experimentations

28:10

on their bodies with no anesthesia

28:13

these were black enslaved women and He

28:16

made his name as the quote-unquote

28:19

father of gynecology through

28:21

those experimentations and those

28:23

violations Obviously

28:25

how we came to you know have the

28:27

speculum is that correct? Like that's how the

28:30

speculum has been kind of designed as upon

28:32

the bodies of enslaved people Yeah,

28:34

he was the designer

28:35

of the Sims speculum

28:38

that was then later adapted and

28:40

modernized a little bit but yeah, he made

28:42

the first speculum out of spoons and

28:46

Performed all kinds of procedures

28:49

on

28:49

on these women Some

28:52

of them had up to like 30 procedures

28:56

And so these women are now often lauded

28:59

some of them their names We know a Narca

29:02

Lucy Betsy they're often

29:04

now lauded as the mothers of gynecology

29:06

because gynecology as a discipline

29:09

was essentially Developed

29:11

through this work on their bodies

29:13

that he was doing as he saw it and

29:16

it was theater He would bring people

29:18

in to watch And

29:21

Harriet Washington who wrote medical apartheid

29:23

we interview her in the film She talks about

29:25

how he would often bring in people

29:28

that were there also to to hold the women

29:30

down Because he was doing these very

29:32

painful Experiments on their

29:34

bodies without

29:36

anesthesia So I mean I can't

29:38

even imagine the the pain of that

29:40

And so I think we have to really remember

29:43

that legacy and this is not this

29:45

is a direct descendant of that

29:47

And we know this because it's from his own

29:49

words He wrote a book documenting a

29:51

lot of this talking about you know, he was having

29:54

dreams in the middle of the night He'd dream about

29:56

a kind of procedure or

29:57

an idea about gynecology

29:59

and he would go and wake up one of the enslaved

30:02

women and practice

30:04

a procedure on her, no anaesthetic, no painkillers,

30:07

again and again and again, until he could

30:09

enact his fucking

30:12

dream. And he spoke

30:14

about it as if he's some sort of genius, who

30:16

was being handed the messages from

30:18

what? From God? And

30:21

then just dehumanizing

30:23

people so badly. But it does kind of, it

30:25

speaks to, when you think about the

30:27

fact that that lineage, it speaks to the

30:29

fact that given that

30:31

medicine has traditionally

30:34

finally been recognized for

30:36

treating black women in particular, as

30:38

if they have a higher threshold of pain, as if they

30:40

have quote unquote thicker skin or

30:43

literally thicker skin, it does

30:45

not acknowledge their pain threshold, it does

30:47

not acknowledge their humanity, it does not acknowledge

30:50

that, we hear so many stories

30:52

of women in labor being denied painkillers

30:54

if they're black or being denied the epidural,

30:56

all these different things. And

30:59

so the brutality that is still

31:01

today,

31:03

gynecology, like some of the gynecological

31:05

experiments,

31:06

it speaks to the fact that it was designed

31:08

on people who they did not consider to be

31:10

human beings, whose pain threshold

31:13

they did not give a shit about. There's just

31:15

no way that these massive callously

31:17

used and utensils or

31:19

materials that be used on a

31:21

male reproductive system or on a male

31:24

body, in my opinion. And

31:27

I still don't think that we've come far enough

31:29

in making these procedures painless.

31:32

And I still don't think most gynecologists are

31:35

aware of the pain that

31:36

they are

31:38

inflicting upon patients. And something

31:41

you bring up several times in the film that I

31:43

thought that really spoke to me,

31:45

that because there's so little empathy

31:47

towards those of us who need to receive gynecological

31:50

care, the procedures are so brutal

31:52

that most people avoid coming

31:54

in for them and then they don't get the vital care that

31:56

they need. So I avoid my pap

31:58

smear. which is very dangerous to me.

32:01

I need to go in for regular pap smears. I'm supposed to

32:03

go in between like every six months and a year

32:05

and I just don't do it. And I'll let a whole

32:07

extra year go by until I'm forced

32:09

or until something's wrong. And that's

32:11

because the, I've been so traumatized

32:14

by previous gynecologists who've treated me

32:16

as if I'm not a human being, as if I'm overreacting

32:19

or being hysterical because it's incredibly

32:21

painful. And

32:24

I think that that's incredibly

32:26

concerning and reason enough to

32:28

make sure that we raise the alarm. Can

32:31

you tell me about how you got into

32:34

this work? Like how you even stumbled upon all

32:36

of this? I would love to just before

32:38

we moved from what we were just talking about,

32:40

I just, a couple of things I just want to share too

32:42

is this issue is

32:45

also a health disparity.

32:46

We have new research that came out

32:48

in 2021 that shows that

32:51

black women, black patients are four

32:53

times more likely to have this happen

32:56

than other patients. So this,

32:58

this is right in line

33:00

with the, with that history and also

33:03

with the extreme health disparities,

33:05

the rates of maternal

33:06

health mortality that we're seeing

33:08

in this country for

33:10

black women. And I think birth

33:13

is a place where we just see tremendous

33:16

violations and tremendous dehumanization

33:19

of people and particularly black

33:21

women. So I just want to

33:24

say that even though any

33:26

of us working in this field know that

33:28

that's the case, we actually now

33:30

have research that shows that that's

33:32

the case. And that came out of Yale.

33:34

Can I just ask why they

33:36

don't

33:37

just pay people

33:39

to volunteer?

33:40

They do. They do. So

33:44

that is how I got in into

33:46

this. I, by training, I'm a sexuality

33:49

educator. I've been an educator

33:50

for 25 years in many different settings. And

33:55

one of the settings that I decided to

33:57

train to work in was medicine.

33:59

I want to,

33:59

I wanted to work with medical students because

34:02

I know how little they get about healthy

34:04

sexuality.

34:07

And when I found out that gynaecological

34:09

teaching associate work

34:11

was a thing where

34:12

there are teachers who go in

34:15

and work with medical students in clinical settings

34:18

using their own bodies to teach and guiding

34:21

students through how to do an

34:24

effective, comfortable, respectful,

34:27

breast exam and pelvic exam. That

34:29

was work that I wanted to do. I feel comfortable

34:32

teaching using my own body. The body is an amazing

34:34

tool for people that

34:36

can be self-possessed enough to do that kind

34:39

of work. It's a very, very powerful way

34:41

of teaching. And so that work

34:43

has been around since the late 70s. And

34:46

so we also chronicle that history in

34:48

the documentary. So I

34:51

worked for 10 years in New

34:53

York City and all of the major medical schools

34:55

in New York City with students. When

34:59

they would leave a session, we would get them for

35:01

like three and a half, four hours, maybe, they

35:04

would just be lit up. They had learned

35:06

so much. It was oftentimes the

35:08

first time they were actually even interfacing with

35:11

a real body in their training.

35:13

Usually we would get students in their second year of

35:15

medical school before they went into their

35:17

clinicals. And

35:19

they would learn so much,

35:22

you could just see that

35:24

having such an empowered experience

35:28

with someone who not only was

35:30

comfortable in their body and comfortable using their body

35:32

to teach, but could also guide

35:35

them with humor, with

35:37

care, and

35:39

with humanized experience. Yeah.

35:42

And part of it also is that we

35:44

would turn it on its head because we would

35:46

always guide them to ask questions of

35:48

the person on the table. Sometimes

35:51

they would want it, we would team teach. And so we would

35:53

demonstrate an exam, one person would play the provider,

35:56

one would play the patient. And oftentimes if they

35:58

had a question, they would turn to

35:59

the person.

35:59

playing the provider, you know, they turn over

36:02

here to ask the question and we would always

36:04

say, no, you want to ask the person on the table because

36:06

that person on the table is the person with the most

36:08

information about that body. And that's

36:11

something that's even radical in medicine.

36:13

You know, this idea that the person

36:15

with the body which you're examining

36:18

is the one that has the most information.

36:20

And a lot of times experts are brought in, they'll

36:23

talk in a room with a patient on a table

36:25

as if the patient isn't even there and they're sitting there talking

36:27

about the patient. All

36:29

providers

36:29

do that, but

36:31

many people have stories of things like that happening.

36:34

So we really are all familiar

36:36

with the hierarchy of doctors,

36:38

everything, you know, nothing. Even

36:42

at 37 I get treated by

36:44

doctors like I have no idea what I'm talking about when

36:46

I'm trying to tell them of the pain.

36:49

And then later they'll find out that I was

36:51

right. They'll

36:53

never say, oh, you were right about that

36:56

thing. There's always like damped cast on

36:58

women specifically. And there's like an extra

37:00

layer of that for women of color,

37:01

especially black women. And

37:04

I find that to be so unbelievably

37:07

disturbing. And again, it's why

37:09

I almost never go to the doctor until I'm in

37:11

a full-on emergency. And I think a lot of my friends

37:14

feel the same way. One of

37:16

the things that you bring up that I think

37:18

is so vitally important in the documentary,

37:21

you know, talking about how empowering it is for

37:23

the student to learn how to face

37:26

this in a very humane way, is

37:28

the mental health impact

37:31

on the students. Because we can, I

37:33

think we can all like pretty easily understand

37:35

and put ourselves in a position of someone who's been violated,

37:38

but someone who

37:41

is pressured to do the

37:43

violating when there's no power when you're

37:45

the medical student like this, you have zero

37:47

power, you cannot advocate for yourself. When

37:50

you do, you are sometimes threatened or punished.

37:53

And so these students are having to a

37:55

lot of them,

37:56

some of them might think, well, this is just, you know, how

37:59

it is. a lot of them realize

38:01

almost immediately they're doing this without

38:03

someone's consent and they're being forced to enact

38:06

that. Can you talk about

38:07

what that does to someone's brain? I think

38:10

it's terrible what we're doing to students.

38:12

You know, I've really at this point become

38:15

an advocate for medical students. We

38:17

have several initiatives

38:20

that we have begun

38:22

with partnering with medical

38:25

student organizations

38:25

including the American

38:27

Medical Student Association because I

38:29

think that the position students

38:32

are put in is such an untenable

38:35

situation for them. You

38:37

know, and so there is something about OBGYN

38:40

in particular and one thing

38:42

that we've also seen in

38:43

research is that no matter where in

38:46

a student's rotation schedule,

38:48

like they might have eight or ten rotations, right? They're going

38:50

to go through all these different rotations to see like

38:52

what are you interested in?

38:54

OBGYN might be the first one, it might be the fifth, it might

38:56

be the eighth, whatever. Wherever that fell

38:59

in their rotation schedule,

39:01

students believed that consent was

39:03

less important at

39:05

that rotation.

39:07

So we know that there's

39:09

something that's happening specifically in that rotation

39:12

where consent isn't being

39:14

emphasized, it's not being modeled and

39:16

I think that students are needing to find

39:19

a way to make what they have done

39:21

feel okay.

39:23

And so they, and

39:25

you see this, we have a story of a student

39:28

in the

39:28

film, Liz, and we see her, we

39:31

see her when she's

39:31

at her GTA session and then we

39:33

see her 15 months later. Can you tell

39:35

us what GTA, what that means? That's the Gynecological

39:38

Teaching Associate work, yeah, that I was speaking

39:40

about and so she came in and she worked with GTAs

39:43

and then 15 months later she's on rotation

39:46

and when she was working with the GTAs she was

39:48

the one that helped us get the cameras in the room,

39:51

she rallied her her fellow med students

39:53

and said this project's really great, you

39:55

know, let's you know, let's

39:58

support this and in 15

39:59

later on rotation, her very first day

40:02

of her OBGYN rotation, she's

40:04

ushered into an ambulatory

40:05

surgery room

40:07

and told to put on gloves and examine

40:09

a patient and nothing is said about consent

40:12

and it was not just her, she was with other students.

40:14

And

40:16

so that's literally

40:17

how her OBGYN started

40:20

rotation.

40:20

And so you see her grapple

40:22

with this in the film. She's trying to make sense

40:24

of it and she's trying to feel okay

40:27

about what has happened and she actually

40:29

says, maybe I've switched to the other side.

40:32

And that's literally what

40:34

research shows happens

40:35

to students. I

40:37

speak to students regularly who, you

40:40

know, they're afraid. They

40:42

don't want to violate patients. They want

40:44

to get consent. Sometimes they're made fun

40:47

of for asking for consent or

40:49

asking about consent. Oh no, no, no, we don't do

40:51

that. We don't have time for that. We're not, you know,

40:53

or they're poked fun at, you know, oh bodily

40:55

autonomy, oh whatever. Literally

40:57

these things are made fun of

40:59

by many preceptors or

41:02

other staff. And

41:02

do you think that's relatively gendered even though this

41:05

does happen to people who are,

41:06

you know, non-binary or who don't identify

41:09

as women? Do you think that this disregard

41:12

for the consent

41:13

is a deep layer

41:15

of misogyny of just like, we don't have time for that.

41:17

We don't have time to go. Oh yeah, absolutely.

41:20

I think that's a big question. Yeah, but

41:22

we also do know that intimate exams,

41:24

you know, other prostate exams, rectal

41:26

exams can happen to people of all genders, prostate

41:29

exams as well. We do

41:31

know that those things happen. We focused on pelvic

41:33

exams in this work because

41:34

the research is very clear and that was the

41:37

work that we were focused

41:38

on with the Gynecological Teaching

41:40

Associate

41:40

work. But

41:42

yeah, absolutely. I think that misogyny

41:44

plays into it. I just say that because gynecology

41:46

is so laced with misogyny. Like the

41:49

whole way it's carried out and the attitude towards

41:51

us and the lack of wanting to give us painkillers

41:53

even if they can give us painkillers, even if they can

41:55

give us some sort of something to relax

41:57

us. They choose not to and tell us to buck up.

42:00

And it's like why would I ever opt in for discomfort

42:02

and pain? It was actually on this

42:04

podcast that I learned from a gynecologist

42:07

that it's not supposed to be agonizingly painful

42:09

No, no, I had no

42:12

idea. I had no idea I

42:14

started crying on the podcast

42:16

because I was 34 and

42:19

had no idea that it's not supposed to be

42:21

like that I had no idea that you're not supposed

42:23

to have to be held down by four nurses

42:27

I it just wasn't it wasn't

42:29

something that I was aware of and so

42:31

I found out and switched my gynecologist immediately

42:34

and now like I'm Much much

42:36

in a much better place that's still so traumatized

42:39

by all those years of like

42:42

Terrorizing and and like cruel

42:45

pap smears where the doctor would walk out the room While

42:48

talking to me just wouldn't like

42:51

tell me anything that they'd seen wouldn't

42:53

check if I was okay would do it Create

42:56

that collects the sample and then start

42:58

talking to me while walking out of the room and wouldn't come

43:00

back She'd be like so we'll give you results in a few

43:02

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43:05

had no idea and and nor did most of the people

43:07

listening to the podcast I got like tens

43:10

of thousands of letters after that episode saying

43:12

that they had no idea either that you're

43:14

not supposed to feel Like you're being attacked Yeah

43:19

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43:22

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43:25

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43:27

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the light we cannot see is a breathtaking

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43:38

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43:43

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43:44

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43:55

We are hurtling

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45:30

So I just want to circle back to, you know, you

45:32

were talking about the fact that you are someone who willingly

45:36

volunteers your body for this, for

45:39

this practice as work. Why

45:41

is it when we can

45:43

pay when we have a system in which we can

45:46

pay people to allow their bodies

45:48

to be used for

45:50

teaching is the reason they practice

45:52

this without consent to save money so

45:55

that they don't have to pay loads of people? Is

45:57

that what this is? Oh, I absolutely.

45:59

I think it's absolutely an economic

46:02

issue. And it's also that

46:04

in this culture and in many cultures,

46:09

the idea that we just get to have access

46:11

to vaginas. If we need to have access

46:13

to vaginas, we get to have access to vaginas.

46:16

And I think that,

46:18

but yeah, I think it's absolutely an economic

46:20

question of, well, why would we

46:23

pay these teachers if we can just

46:25

use patients for free and they're

46:27

never going to know about it?

46:29

And they're never going to be able

46:31

to fight back because

46:32

it's their word against ours, even if they

46:35

did know.

46:36

And that's really how this has persisted

46:38

for so long.

46:40

And there's something very archaic about the

46:42

idea that, like, well, if they're asleep, if they don't know it

46:44

happened, it can't traumatize them.

46:47

Yeah, and we know better than that now. There's plenty

46:49

of research now that shows that the body

46:51

has a cellular memory. We have a memory

46:54

in our body. I have heard countless stories

46:56

of people saying, oh, I

46:58

don't know if something happened, but

47:00

I just had this weird feeling when I woke

47:02

up. And of course, that always

47:05

gets dismissed too, because, oh,

47:07

that's just women having a feeling

47:09

again or something. And

47:12

the body knows. And I think that

47:15

to put,

47:16

to entrust someone with

47:19

your life while you are under anesthesia

47:21

is truly the

47:22

biggest trust you can put in someone.

47:25

And to have that trust violated

47:27

while

47:28

they are literally in charge

47:30

of your

47:30

life and what happens to you is

47:33

such an egregious violation.

47:36

And it's so damaging. And the last

47:38

thing I want to do is scare people away from

47:41

the care that they need. I want people to

47:43

access the medical care that they need. And

47:46

I've

47:46

heard stories like yours from, I

47:48

mean, there's very few people I know who

47:50

don't have stories about

47:52

a horrible pelvic exam experience

47:55

or whatever. And

47:57

I'm really sorry that you had that experience.

47:59

for so long. And I've heard that from people

48:02

as well, this idea of like, I

48:05

can't even imagine it could be a comfortable

48:07

experience because I've never had that experience. And that's

48:10

not okay. I can assure you that myself

48:13

and the

48:14

thousands of

48:15

other GTAs across this

48:17

country and also in other parts of the world who have

48:19

done this work for decades and decades

48:21

would not go to work every

48:22

day to be hurt. I can

48:25

assure you

48:25

we would not. So what

48:28

we taught was this is how

48:30

you make a patient comfortable. This is how you make

48:32

an exam comfortable. This is how you

48:35

soften your wrist or you change your

48:37

position or you communicate to

48:39

find out what's going on with your patient. You know, that's

48:41

a lot of what we taught as well. This

48:43

is what's also so fucking insane

48:45

is that

48:46

if you do these exams, if

48:48

you practice these exams on people

48:51

who are under anesthetic, then they

48:53

are not going to flinch

48:56

or show pain or to be able to give you any

48:58

cues or signals. So it's such an illegitimate

49:01

way to do anything

49:03

other than the functional practice of getting the

49:05

speculum in. Like you have no

49:07

idea if your technique is good because

49:10

you're not able to get any feedback because someone's

49:12

unfucking conscious. It was insane

49:15

to me having

49:17

to reckon with the idea that some of the smartest

49:20

people in the world can't see

49:22

that that doesn't make any sense.

49:25

If you're trying to learn, it just shows that the

49:27

burden is not on the doctor really

49:30

to make sure that the patient is comfortable. It's just to

49:32

get the job done. Which then means

49:34

that then people aren't going to come back. They're going to

49:36

be traumatized and not going to get the healthcare they need.

49:38

There's a very serious implication in

49:41

not making it a bearable

49:44

experience. No, exactly. And

49:46

the other thing that's important for people to realize

49:48

is this isn't even a good educational

49:51

experience for them. If we're trying to teach

49:53

them how to do a good pelvic

49:56

exam, which is sometimes the goal,

49:58

I think sometimes the goal is to do it. for

50:00

them to experience pathology. Oftentimes

50:02

the goal is for them to practice their pelvic

50:04

exams and get a number of pelvic exams in so

50:07

that they can meet their quotas on their rotations.

50:10

If you wanna teach a student how

50:12

to do a good pelvic exam, you don't do

50:14

it on someone who's anesthetized where all

50:17

of those vaginal muscles are relaxed.

50:19

Every muscle in the body is relaxed.

50:21

It's gonna feel completely different

50:24

from what an exam on a live

50:26

awake person would be. And then as you say,

50:29

they're not gonna be able to telegraph to

50:31

the student if something's hurting, if

50:35

they need to adjust something, and

50:38

so they could also really injure a

50:40

patient. And that doesn't get talked about

50:42

either. And also,

50:44

as you were saying earlier, that there

50:46

is an epistemology to experience when someone's

50:48

come in for a knee

50:49

operation.

50:51

They're not gonna be able to see something that's

50:53

going on. It's so breathtaking

50:55

to me. I had no idea about

50:58

this before your film. I cannot

51:00

tell you how many people you are going

51:03

to save because you

51:05

are raising the alarm on this. I'm so

51:07

grateful to you for the work that you're doing.

51:10

I would like to talk about what

51:12

that is in a bit more detail. I'd

51:15

like to know where you're taking this and

51:17

what your plans are and how we as a community

51:19

could support you. Yeah, thank you. I

51:22

mean, we're doing a number of things. This is very much

51:24

a social impact film.

51:26

We want people to see the film because

51:30

that is usually people's reaction. It's

51:32

like, how can we shift this? This

51:35

is something that needs

51:37

to be addressed. We've been doing a lot,

51:39

as I said, we've been doing legislative

51:40

work. We co-wrote

51:45

and passed the strongest

51:47

law in the country in the state of Colorado

51:49

this year. I'm very proud of that

51:51

bill. We got almost everything

51:54

that we wanted in that bill. It is the most comprehensive

51:56

bill in the country now. It

51:58

includes whistleblower.

51:59

protection for students because students are

52:02

not typically protected

52:04

under standing whistleblower laws

52:06

because those are usually for employees and

52:08

students are not officially an employee. So

52:11

they actually would not have whistleblower

52:13

protection if they were to speak

52:15

up about this. And I think it is actually

52:18

important to say the only reason we know that

52:20

this is happening is because of students

52:22

who have spoken out. That is really, really

52:24

important to highlight for

52:27

people. Students that have been courageous

52:29

and we tell

52:31

several of their stories in the film. We share several

52:33

of their stories in the film.

52:34

They ducked out. Ari

52:38

Silver-Eisenstad, who is the main character in the film,

52:40

he stepped out of med school for a year after

52:42

being threatened and being told, oh,

52:45

maybe you are not cut out for medicine.

52:48

Why are you identifying so much with the

52:50

patients? Because he didn't want

52:52

to do this to his patients. And so he was

52:54

showing up late to avoid doing this. And

52:56

so he ended up stepping out of medical school for a year

52:59

and he did the research that

53:01

was published in 2003 showing that 90%

53:04

of students had

53:04

done this to patients. That's

53:06

a lot of students and that's a lot of patients.

53:08

I'm not a lot of them didn't know that it wasn't with

53:10

consent. A lot of them assumed it was consent

53:12

with consent, right? Because I think that's another problem

53:15

is that then you find out later that, oh, no, actually

53:17

that woman had no idea there are certain instances in the documentary

53:20

where a student is talking to the patient afterwards

53:23

and casually brings up that it happened and

53:25

the patient's visibly horrified saying, why

53:27

on earth did you, why were you even looking

53:30

inside of my cervix to know I was

53:32

on my period? And then the

53:34

student just quickly gets out of the room

53:36

because they realize, oh

53:38

shit, she didn't know. Yep.

53:40

That must be harrowing.

53:42

It's terrible for everyone involved.

53:44

Yeah. And it's causing an, I think, tremendous

53:46

moral injury to students. And

53:49

so we're doing this legislative

53:52

work. There's 24

53:54

laws in the country. And unfortunately right

53:56

now, many of those laws are not effective.

53:58

They're not detailed enough. very

54:02

simple laws keep getting put forward

54:04

or bills keep getting put forward. The

54:07

law that we pass in Colorado is the most comprehensive

54:09

law and it passed unanimously in

54:11

both houses. It entails

54:14

a very clear consent process.

54:17

It details who the

54:20

players are, who's involved,

54:21

who's liable. There

54:24

is actual liability in the law by

54:26

an outside agency that's not just

54:29

a professional organization that

54:31

oversees the surgeons.

54:34

And so I think without that liability in

54:36

the laws, without licensure

54:39

and accreditation of facilities being on

54:41

the line, this is not going to stop.

54:43

I mean, they've had 20 years to

54:45

change this since that research came out. We've been

54:47

talking about this. We have been talking

54:49

about this. There have been articles. There will be

54:51

waves of articles. After

54:53

Me Too happened in 2016 or began, I should

54:56

say.

55:00

You know, many laws have been passed since, but

55:03

they still, many of them

55:05

are inadequate. So we have

55:07

new research as of last year that shows that 84%

55:10

of students have done this to at least one patient

55:13

on their rotations. So they've

55:15

had 20 years to change this

55:18

and we've seen a negligible

55:20

change. I mean, 84%, 90%. It's a crazy statistic to think

55:22

of. And

55:28

we do some of the numbers with one of the students in the film. I

55:30

think

55:30

that that really drives it home for people when they think

55:33

about the numbers of people. How can we

55:35

support you? Well, we certainly want to get

55:37

better laws passed in all of the states. And

55:40

our goal is to get laws in all 50 states. So

55:42

we have a legislative campaign right now, and

55:44

that's all on our website. And

55:46

then the other thing that we're

55:47

starting to do is to do work

55:50

with students.

55:50

As I said, we're

55:53

actually convening a group of students

55:55

who are writing a pledge that we are

55:57

working to get incorporated into their

55:59

white coat. ceremony because

56:01

we know that students as individual

56:04

actors cannot take on a system. This is

56:06

a systemic issue. This is and

56:09

we know that they face tremendous retribution

56:11

oftentimes when they do. I've heard many many stories

56:14

of that. So you

56:16

know

56:17

finding a way to support them

56:19

as a collective so that they have

56:22

organizations behind them that are

56:24

supporting them to say no I'm not going

56:26

to do intimate exams to patients

56:28

when they've not consented is really

56:30

really important. We're a very

56:32

small filmmaker team. We're independent filmmakers.

56:35

We've sort of become amateur

56:37

lobbyists at this point and we are working

56:40

with legislators in many different

56:42

states and we're doing you know

56:44

we don't have funding for any of that. So certainly

56:46

if people want to support us financially we very

56:49

much need that. Where would we send those

56:51

donations to? You just

56:52

go to at your cervix movie

56:55

and it's very easy

56:57

to donate on our website. Everything is

56:59

there. You know bringing us to your

57:01

school if people are at universities, colleges,

57:03

medical schools, nursing schools. Bring

57:07

the film. Bring us and let's do

57:09

events. You know as we are doing these events

57:11

we've been on tour over this

57:13

year. We're going to be continuing to tour

57:15

over the coming year. We

57:17

would love to come and

57:19

engage people in your community.

57:22

People can bring us for community

57:23

screenings as well and

57:25

if people want to work with us legislatively

57:27

in their states we absolutely

57:29

welcome that. We cannot do all of it ourselves

57:32

and we need people that want to collaborate

57:35

with us. We've learned a lot

57:37

in this process. I've learned a lot about how

57:39

this works and we've

57:42

had the great benefit of working

57:44

with some fantastic legislators. We have

57:46

a really strong campaign happening in Massachusetts

57:48

right now where there are four major medical

57:50

schools. That's a very big state

57:53

and we have our eyes on all of the states

57:55

right now that have the most medical schools. We're

57:58

really looking closely at getting things passed.

57:59

in states like Massachusetts,

58:02

Pennsylvania, Ohio and Michigan. I

58:04

know that I said at the top of this that this film

58:06

is definitely harrowing in

58:09

certain aspects, but it was also, I

58:11

think, one of the most amazing

58:13

documentaries I've ever seen. It was so informative.

58:17

There are ties that we're not going to get into right now, because

58:19

I actually want you to go and watch the film, between

58:21

abortion and all of this,

58:23

and the history

58:26

of midwife versus gynecology.

58:29

There is so much understanding of patriarchy

58:31

and misogyny in this. You really connected

58:34

so many dots for me throughout

58:37

the documentary, where I could understand

58:39

the history and see how we got here.

58:42

And that made me feel actually, genuinely hopeful

58:44

that we can find our way out. And

58:46

I really would love

58:48

to help you, and I hope my audience

58:51

watch the film. It was amazing. I'm

58:54

going to obsessively

58:56

read my consent forms going forward, and I

58:58

hope we all do. And I thank

59:01

you for empowering us to

59:03

take back our autonomy. You're

59:06

amazing. So thank you very much for coming

59:08

today. Oh, Jamila, that means so much to me.

59:11

Thank you so much. And

59:12

yeah, thank you. Thank

59:15

you for highlighting this

59:16

and wanting to share this with people.

59:18

And we are going to open up a screening

59:21

for a virtual screening for your

59:23

listeners. So right now, people

59:25

can go to our website at

59:27

atyourcervixmovie.com, and

59:30

you can just sign up to see it online right

59:32

now. You don't have to wait. But

59:35

certainly, if you want to bring us for an in-person

59:37

screening

59:37

or a virtual screening, we will do those as well.

59:39

But right now,

59:40

as people might be

59:42

listening to this,

59:43

please come. Come to our website. Come

59:45

see the film. And if you're listening

59:48

to this later on, the best way to

59:50

find out when

59:51

screenings are forthcoming is just to

59:53

follow us on our socials and come to our

59:55

website and join our community. Thank

59:57

you so much. I really appreciate that.

59:59

Thank you for your work.

1:00:01

Thank you.

1:00:28

I weigh my loyalty,

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being a good friend and partner. I weigh being

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