0:00

I'm

0:03

not a gold digger. I'm not trying to get you for all your

0:05

properties and all your money. I make my own money.

0:07

I'm a full-time, you

0:09

know, career woman and I don't need

0:11

your money.

0:12

There's no prenup and we're married and the next

0:14

month she decides she

0:17

made a mistake. She can walk away with half or

0:19

more or worse.

0:20

I don't want to be afraid to

0:22

talk about money. I live in the past.

0:24

There's a lot of hurtful things that got us to where we are

0:27

and it revolves around money and

0:30

I hold on to that.

0:31

It's just, what I tell

0:33

Ren whenever she asks me on my birthday,

0:35

it's time with her. I just want my

0:38

wife back. That's the rich life for me. The

0:41

switch hasn't flicked fully for me yet

0:43

where now I can say, okay, let's enjoy this. You

0:46

know, it's been years of darkness.

0:49

It can't

0:51

go on.

0:56

What would you do if you felt disconnected

0:58

from your partner of nine years? What

1:01

if both of you felt alone and you both

1:03

wanted more quality time together, but

1:05

you couldn't figure out how? Well, today

1:07

I'd like to introduce you to Matt, who's 40, and

1:10

Ruan, 38. They both live in Toronto.

1:12

They have two kids. And in today's conversation,

1:14

you're going to hear some shocking admissions,

1:17

including a conversation they had before

1:20

they got married that has haunted

1:22

their relationship ever since.

1:24

I'd like to read you a little bit from their application.

1:28

We've been married for nine years and lived together for 13

1:30

years, and I have always subsidized

1:33

our lifestyle. Our kids are getting older and

1:35

soon they won't be the glue to keep

1:37

us together. This is a fascinating

1:39

conversation.

1:40

And before we get into it, I want to ask

1:43

you one question. When

1:45

was the last time you had a productive

1:47

conversation about money with your

1:49

partner? You know, on this show, you'll

1:51

hear me recommend to guests that they have regular

1:53

money dates. I talk about money with

1:55

my wife regularly. Well, this Saturday

1:57

in my newsletter, I'm going to share how to have.

2:00

a money date with your partner, including specifically

2:03

what do you talk about, when should you

2:05

have them, and how do you make sure that they're actually

2:08

fun as opposed to being filled

2:10

with conflict? I'll even share a simple

2:13

agenda you can use to guide the conversation.

2:15

And you can only get it by signing up for my newsletter

2:17

before this Saturday, November 25th at

2:21

iwt.com slash

2:23

podcast newsletter.

2:24

Matt

2:26

bought a condo. We bought a condo. It

2:29

wasn't necessarily about a disagreement. I'm

2:31

more cautious

2:34

with money. Matt's

2:36

more riskier

2:39

with money. He loves to invest. He wants

2:41

to always, you know, always looking at property,

2:43

always looking at real estate, and I'm kind of always shutting

2:45

it down. Are we

2:47

sure we have enough? Is that, you know, is it gonna be

2:49

too much? And we talked about this

2:51

condo. We decided collectively that

2:54

it wasn't gonna move forward. And

2:56

then

2:57

he still bought it anyway.

2:59

What do you mean he bought it anyway? He came back.

3:01

I got home after the boys from school,

3:04

and he's like, oh, we got a condo.

3:07

And I was like, huh? What? That's

3:09

like me saying, oh, we got an

3:12

extra bag of chips from the grocery store. Matt,

3:14

you're just like, we got a condo?

3:16

He's like, yeah, let's celebrate. I was like.

3:19

Out of curiosity, did you celebrate?

3:22

No, I was pretty pissed off. It

3:24

didn't go very well in our household that evening. So

3:27

what did you say?

3:29

I don't understand. I thought

3:31

we weren't gonna, I thought we talked about, we weren't gonna

3:33

go forth with it. And his

3:36

response was, it was an opportunity.

3:39

The agent kind of called him,

3:41

and it was kind of like

3:42

very time sensitive, and he made a decision.

3:45

We talked about it in depth about this condo.

3:47

And I gave my opinion. I just didn't,

3:49

you know, the numbers made sense. It was affordable.

3:53

You're not gonna get a condo that cost,

3:55

like I understand that. I understand the market. I understand

3:57

all of that.

3:59

But then

4:01

there was some nuance about investing with someone

4:04

else and it can get mucky and we decide

4:07

I think it's best to just do it us. And then I don't

4:11

think the money really worked at the time. So

4:13

we decided that it wasn't going to go

4:15

forward. And I thought it was it, like we're done out

4:18

of the mind. And then when he bought it,

4:20

it was like, Oh, look, we purchased

4:22

something. Yeah. And I'm like, that's not exciting

4:25

for me. I thought

4:27

this wasn't happening. Okay.

4:29

When how did it make you feel when you heard

4:31

that Matt had gotten the condo, which

4:33

from your understanding, you had agreed not to

4:35

get

4:37

like left out, not even just left

4:39

out, just deflated.

4:41

I was

4:43

like, well,

4:44

thanks for making a decision without me.

4:50

I didn't feel good. Didn't feel great. deflated.

4:53

What does that mean to you?

4:54

I just I don't feel valued as

4:57

in the relationship to

4:59

be a part of that conversation or

5:01

that decision. The condo that I

5:04

did buy is actually different than

5:06

the one that I think we talked about previously

5:08

was the same development was a little different

5:10

situation. It was

5:12

time sensitive. Now maybe I got caught

5:15

up in the excitement, but it

5:18

was a time sensitive offer that

5:20

afternoon, that day, that hour. And

5:23

I made a decision at the time

5:26

she was with her kids. She was tied up. I

5:28

didn't know how to take her away from that. I felt

5:30

it was the right thing to do. Where was she specifically

5:33

when you got that phone call? In the

5:35

playground, as was I.

5:38

Wait, you're at the playground while she was there.

5:40

Yeah, we're both in the playground. She

5:42

was watching her kids. She was talking with one of the moms

5:45

and I got a call. I walked away and made

5:47

a call. Why don't you just walk right back

5:49

over to that slide and be like, hey, babe, I got

5:51

a question for you.

5:53

It didn't

5:55

seem like the place. I

5:58

could have. I pass

6:00

a lot of ideas past her

6:04

and she's never pounded the table

6:06

ever to buy one. I think the last condo

6:08

I purchased was 11, 12 years

6:11

ago. Before

6:13

we were married, we haven't bought any since we've been married. And

6:15

before that, I bought multiple condos.

6:18

So I've waited and waited and waited. How

6:20

much was this condo, by the way? Just

6:24

over 400,000 Canadians. So

6:26

about 300,000 US.

6:27

Okay. Is

6:30

there any feeling, Ruann, from your perspective

6:32

about the number itself? Or

6:34

is your feeling more about

6:36

being left out and not valued as you put

6:38

it?

6:39

Left out and not valued. To be honest, like 400 is

6:42

a good cost. Like for that condo, it's

6:44

great value.

6:45

He always comes correct.

6:47

He comes with all of this information. He

6:49

talked about the location, how much we can

6:51

get for it, Airbnb

6:53

it, rented out, talked about

6:55

how close it was to the transit system.

6:58

But Ruann, it sounds great. When

7:02

you wait in, why did you say no to the condo?

7:04

I think I said to him, the cost is good.

7:06

I think it makes sense. But can it

7:09

work for us? Like is that realistic?

7:11

Like so it's a two hour, an hour and a

7:13

half drive from where we live. You manage your

7:15

condos. You do all of your management of

7:17

the condos yourself. Is that realistic

7:20

for us to drive all the way out there if something's wrong?

7:22

I mean, that doesn't matter to him.

7:24

That stuff doesn't actually matter to

7:26

him. Because if he puts his mind to something, he's

7:28

going to dedicate the time. He's

7:30

okay to drive the drive if that's what has to happen.

7:33

I'm not that person. I'm like, it's

7:35

just too much work. When he brought you

7:37

the

7:38

proposal for the condo, you

7:40

thought on paper, this looks good, the

7:43

numbers wise. You raised some

7:45

concerns. Does this make sense for your lifestyle,

7:47

for our lifestyle, etc. He

7:50

said, I don't care. It's fine with me. Was

7:53

there actually a decision made in that

7:55

conversation?

7:57

No.

7:59

I think this is the

8:01

crux of a lot of

8:03

what happens with Between the Two of Us is that

8:05

we talk about it, we talk around

8:08

it. We kind of just

8:10

put a pin in it and then it just never gets

8:12

picked back up.

8:14

I think it's tough for

8:17

maybe a part of it is I

8:20

know all the numbers. I live and

8:22

breathe this stuff, so it's easy

8:24

for me. I don't think it's

8:26

as easy for Ruans to be decisive.

8:29

I think

8:31

the opening comments she said was I'm

8:33

just more risky. I think like

8:35

an investor, I'm okay

8:37

with risk. I think I hear a lot

8:40

of all of the concerns

8:42

and risks and challenges. When

8:44

everyone doesn't want to buy a condo, that's

8:47

when I want to buy

8:49

it. It's a bit of oil and water

8:51

and perspective in that.

8:53

Okay, a few clues that I noticed.

8:55

Ruans first comment was

8:57

Matt bought, we bought,

9:00

did you catch that slip? That difference

9:02

of his money,

9:04

our money.

9:05

Then Matt mentioning that he's waited

9:08

and waited to buy another property. The

9:11

comment that he didn't want to bother her because

9:13

she was playing with the kids, which is about 10

9:15

feet away on the playground. But

9:18

the clue that really caught my eye was when Ruans

9:20

said they decided collectively they

9:22

weren't going to move forward and then Matt bought it

9:24

anyway. But when I probed, she

9:27

admitted that the property was a great

9:29

deal. It made a lot of financial sense and

9:32

she'd actually never really said no. Seems

9:36

to me that there's a lot of communication issues

9:38

and I'd like to dive into that. I will say I do

9:40

love the idea that someone just randomly bought a $400,000 condo

9:44

and surprised their spouse. Is this

9:46

inconceivable for anyone else but me? We'll

9:49

be right back.

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12:22

Let's get back to Matt and Ruan.

12:24

I live in the past. I hold on to

12:27

all the things

12:28

that got us to where we are. There's

12:31

a lot of hurtful things that got us to where we are

12:34

and it revolves around money

12:37

and

12:38

I hold on to that.

12:41

Boundaries were set from the beginning

12:43

and that created the dynamic around

12:45

money. Like

12:46

what boundaries?

12:48

Sorry Matt but

12:50

we were driving

12:53

in New Zealand.

12:54

We went for six months

12:57

and I remember us driving

12:59

and he made it very

13:02

clear that his money was his

13:04

money, my money was my money and

13:06

there was no

13:09

crossover. That

13:11

was when we were just we're dating. He

13:14

talked about

13:16

a prenup

13:19

and

13:26

I felt I

13:29

didn't feel good sitting in the car and I'm like this is

13:31

the person that I thought

13:33

I was gonna spend my life with and here

13:35

he is saying to me that what's mine

13:37

is mine is what's yours is yours and it's basically

13:41

you don't have any say in that.

13:43

I'm not a gold digger. I'm not trying to get you for all

13:45

your properties and all your money. I make my own money.

13:48

I'm a full-time

13:50

career woman and I don't need your money. I

13:52

didn't understand that and I came from a family

13:54

where my mom and dad are married

13:57

and everything's collected together.

13:59

I just thought that's what it was

14:02

going to be and he made it very cut up. That's not how it was going

14:04

to be.

14:04

Okay.

14:05

And when you heard that conversation, what

14:08

were your feelings? Oh, I felt

14:10

destroyed. I felt like what

14:12

am I

14:13

actually putting myself in my head? Like, what am I doing? Is

14:15

this the right person for me? I just felt like, you know,

14:17

he doesn't trust me. You know,

14:20

that's the clear indication that you don't trust

14:22

your partner. Like you don't want to blend

14:24

our money together. You don't want to tell

14:26

me how much you make, how much

14:28

you actually make, what your work is worth. You

14:31

didn't know how much he made? Not really.

14:33

Like, he was in school.

14:35

Now that you've been married, now that you have two children,

14:38

now that you understand more of

14:40

Matt's views on money,

14:43

if you look back at that conversation in the car, does

14:46

it take on any new light for you?

14:50

No, I mean, I'm

14:53

not surprised. I mean,

14:56

he's worked hard for where he's at. He's worked

14:58

hard for where he was before he met me and he was holding

15:00

on to that. And I don't blame him for that.

15:02

I was hurt. I'm not going to lie.

15:05

It was very hurt.

15:06

But I also was able

15:08

to understand where it was coming from. And I don't

15:10

think it was, I convinced myself that it

15:13

wasn't personal. It was his way of

15:15

protecting himself.

15:15

And I couldn't blame him for that. Like,

15:18

I was like, well, I don't want your money. So fine. Okay.

15:22

Do you, I'll do me. I

15:24

remember the

15:26

deafening silence, I guess, after

15:28

I

15:29

said that. What exactly did you say?

15:33

I said, what's mine is

15:35

mine. And what's yours is yours. I

15:40

don't know. I can't remember what inspired

15:43

that or what, if there's anything

15:45

that brought it on other than

15:47

it seemed like risk

15:51

protection.

15:52

Did you end up signing the prenup?

15:54

He never did a prenup. Okay.

15:56

All right.

15:58

He never brought it up again. it up again?

16:00

Oh.

16:01

Matt, what

16:03

the hell?

16:05

Beyond being insulting,

16:07

that's just bad strategy.

16:09

You brought up this extremely weird self-protective

16:12

phrase,

16:13

and then you didn't even do the prenup.

16:16

And notice, by the way, how Rouen

16:18

remembers every single

16:20

detail of this conversation 10

16:23

years later, even after having

16:25

two children together. This

16:27

is a great reminder that a single conversation

16:31

about money can truly change

16:33

everything. And sometimes that's for the better,

16:36

sometimes for the worse. So

16:38

you make a lot more Matt than

16:41

Rouen, is that right?

16:42

Yes.

16:43

Okay, so

16:45

you got married, no prenup.

16:48

Did you combine your

16:50

finances when you got married? Rouen's

16:54

shaking her head no. All right,

16:56

so we have a marriage

17:00

that was started where one person had

17:02

a disproportionate amount of assets.

17:05

Sounds like he had some condos, probably

17:07

a bunch of cash and portfolio stuff. Rouen,

17:10

maybe not nearly as much. And

17:13

Matt, your income has continued,

17:15

probably grown. Rouen, I'm sure yours has

17:17

grown as well, but maybe not as much as Matt's. Fair

17:20

enough?

17:20

Yeah. So

17:23

my

17:25

check from work went into my account, his check

17:27

from work went to his account. And then we put a percentage

17:31

based on how much our incomes

17:34

were. And we put it into a pool and that's

17:36

what paid all our bills.

17:37

Okay.

17:38

You still do that? Yeah. Okay. What's

17:41

the percentage breakdown? 80, 20,

17:43

90, 10. Okay. Something like that. This

17:46

all sounds very familiar to me. I know

17:48

this situation. I completely

17:50

understand some

17:51

of the dynamics around this.

17:54

We never struggle. We don't struggle for, we

17:56

buy what we want. We

17:58

pay off our credit cards.

18:00

I don't have any actual like debt,

18:03

like no line of credit. You

18:06

know,

18:07

we buy everything outright. Like when we

18:09

got a car, it's bought cash or

18:12

like full out. We don't take on

18:14

any leases or finance

18:16

or anything like that. I think we're

18:19

doing pretty good,

18:20

to be honest. It's just, I,

18:23

what I tell Ren, whenever she asks me, I don't

18:25

have my birthday, it's time with her. I just

18:27

want my wife back.

18:30

That's the rich life for me. Back

18:32

means what? Back from where?

18:35

Back from involves, you

18:37

know, just our world revolves around

18:39

our kids day in and day out.

18:42

And

18:43

that's the irony of this whole thing is it works so

18:45

hard to provide for your kids and then your

18:48

life gets taken over by your kids. And

18:50

we've forgotten about ourselves. And

18:55

that's what I miss. I miss real

18:57

quality time on my own with this

18:59

friend.

19:02

It was one of my birthdays, Matt, that you took

19:04

me to

19:05

Niagara Falls

19:07

and we were having dinner.

19:09

And it's the first time he has ever said

19:11

to me, I want

19:13

my wife back.

19:15

That blew my mind. It

19:18

was like,

19:20

you know, like a earthquake in my

19:22

life. Cause I never, it's never said

19:24

that to me

19:25

since having children. How long ago was that?

19:28

Four years ago, maybe two, maybe

19:31

four. Yeah, pre-COVID. So four years ago.

19:34

And I remember sitting there and I, it

19:36

brought, I was sad.

19:39

I was hurt that he felt

19:43

that way.

19:44

I was like, oh

19:46

my God, I didn't know that

19:49

you felt like this.

19:51

I didn't know that that was a priority for

19:53

you. I didn't know I was a priority

19:56

for you

19:58

because we were just excited. When

20:01

you have two small kids under the age

20:03

of four, you are literally on survival

20:06

mode every day. Every day. I

20:09

call it the 1000 days of darkness. And

20:12

we just came out. Being

20:14

a mom is a tough job and

20:16

I embody it to

20:19

the extent where I sacrifice

20:22

what I want, just getting

20:24

stuff for myself for them and

20:27

sacrifice our relationship.

20:30

What's an example of something you sacrifice

20:32

for yourself?

20:34

I just don't buy myself anything. I

20:37

wear very the same clothes

20:39

all the time. I don't shop

20:41

on a regular basis for myself. I just haven't

20:44

prioritized buying something new for myself.

20:47

Could you? I could. Is

20:49

it a money issue? No.

20:52

Okay.

20:53

Is it because Matt tells you don't buy

20:55

a new pair of pants or something? No.

20:58

Okay. It's just that you are putting

21:00

your energy into your kids and

21:02

your job, not

21:05

yourself.

21:06

I

21:07

wish my time

21:10

happened to last year for 16 years

21:13

and

21:14

I work in a healthcare

21:16

and it's very stressful.

21:18

I take care of people every single day

21:20

and then I come home and I take care of my

21:22

family

21:23

every single day. So I just

21:25

don't find room for myself.

21:27

Putting yourself last is such a common

21:29

theme among the couples I speak to, especially

21:31

the moms. And it speaks to our

21:33

cultural expectations, our gender

21:36

expectations, and also the way that we keep

21:38

money. Let's talk about how money

21:40

influences this feeling. Matt and Ruann

21:43

make a lot of money. If a couple

21:45

makes as much money as they do, they can

21:47

pay away a lot of stresses

21:50

of parenting. Not all of them, but

21:52

they can use money to buy back their

21:54

time. If you are watching

21:57

or listening to this, you should look at Matt

21:59

and Ruann as a crystal ball because

22:01

many of us believe that if we just earn more

22:03

money, all of our problems would magically

22:05

vanish. But they

22:09

make $650,000 a year and

22:11

she still puts herself last and

22:14

he still says that he wants his wife back.

22:17

However, as we've heard on this podcast over

22:20

and over, just having

22:22

money does not mean you know

22:24

how to spend it meaningfully. Part

22:27

of my job today is to try to peel away the

22:29

layers of money and resentment

22:32

to find out what's really going on here. Before

22:35

we go on, what do you think is happening

22:37

here? Is it an easily solved problem

22:39

with money? There's lots of links around. I

22:43

don't know why she doesn't. I feel guilty. Otherwise,

22:46

I don't know why she says it to me.

22:48

Do you think that when she says, I don't

22:50

have clothes, she means something about

22:52

you?

22:53

Yeah. Because

22:55

when I need something, I buy it. I don't

22:58

ask. I just buy it. I

23:01

think she's worried about money. I

23:04

think she's worried about spending. I don't think I

23:07

tell her all the time that there's... I

23:10

can do analysis paralysis with money

23:12

or with dollars. It doesn't seem

23:14

to resonate. Sure. Spreadsheets.

23:17

What do you show? A quick photo? I'm short

23:20

of lots of spreadsheets. Does that

23:22

work?

23:23

I've tried to distill it down. No, it doesn't work. How

23:27

many sheets are

23:29

on your spreadsheet that you show?

23:31

Tell me. More than I can count.

23:37

What did you do in finance? Were you in banking? PE?

23:40

Yeah. I was an investment banker for 10

23:42

years. When you sit down with your model and you're

23:45

like,

23:45

babe, babe, come over here. Then

23:48

you show her this model. It has the most beautiful

23:50

colors and borders. You're

23:52

going to go big. You're never going

23:55

to understand the complexity of this model. Just

23:57

forget about it. It's not humanly possible. But

24:00

just look at how everything

24:02

flows correctly. Go ahead, type in two instead of three.

24:04

Just watch. Yeah,

24:05

honestly, this is like a conversation that's happened.

24:07

I know, because every single banker has this conversation.

24:10

And then, Matt, what's Ruann's reaction?

24:13

Is she super excited to jump into the model?

24:16

No, she starts to snooze off the scene. Wow!

24:19

That's so shot! Wow!

24:23

Bankers, take notice. Nobody gives a s***

24:26

about your model. I personally think it's really

24:28

cool. If anyone is a banker and wants to help

24:30

me with my models for free, great.

24:33

However, I don't want to pay and I don't care about the

24:35

complexity of it. I certainly know that

24:37

spouses of bankers really do

24:39

not care, as I've learned.

24:41

Can we talk about the numbers more?

24:47

I'm laughing because bankers and

24:49

PE guys and other finance people always

24:52

want to talk about the numbers.

24:53

That's part of the problem.

24:55

No, we're not going to talk about the numbers yet. What

24:58

do you both think the

24:59

primary problem is here?

25:02

Describe it to me in a sentence or two. One

25:05

thing is a scarcity

25:06

mindset. One

25:09

of the things that I think we've both seen our parents

25:11

do is deprive

25:13

themselves of all kinds of things

25:17

in the goal of

25:18

trying to get a better life for us. And

25:21

that's just what we saw and that's what we're trying to emulate.

25:24

I just don't think it's necessary in this

25:27

instance. I think it's hurting more than it's

25:29

helping.

25:30

There's a lot of the skills I've learned to get here,

25:32

saving and modeling

25:34

and all of these things and boosting my income.

25:37

It's

25:39

not so hard to keep fully from

25:41

the end. We're now like, okay, let's

25:43

enjoy this. Let's not

25:45

die when we're 90 with 25

25:48

million in the account. Let's start spending. I

25:50

don't think that's fully switched

25:53

for me. Okay,

25:55

that's honest. I appreciate that. And Ruann,

25:57

how about for you? What do you think the

25:59

problem is? here in one or two sentences.

26:02

I think because Matt makes

26:04

more money than me and I don't make the money,

26:06

I feel like it doesn't belong to me.

26:08

You feel like the household money

26:10

is not your money.

26:12

I feel like any money he makes is not

26:15

mine.

26:16

Well, he did say my money is my money and your

26:18

money is your money. Correct.

26:20

I've expressed to him that my

26:24

money psychology when it comes to him

26:26

is because of that conversation. That

26:31

one conversation paved the way for how

26:33

he looks up us as

26:35

a relationship and what he was up to. These are my

26:37

condos. They don't belong to you.

26:39

And I was like,

26:41

well, when we get married, they like theoretically,

26:45

they do belong to me because we're

26:46

together, but I don't want, I don't want

26:49

your condo.

26:51

Well, did you ever talk to her about that conversation directly?

26:54

Maybe not.

26:58

I don't think we ever did, to be honest.

27:01

What were you feeling when you said that to her?

27:08

Maybe I felt I was working harder. I

27:10

was putting more into the relationship, putting more into

27:13

our future studying,

27:15

working. I remember I was working while we were traveling.

27:18

I was working and studying. I

27:20

was booking all the vacations. I was paying

27:22

for a lot of it. I don't know if all

27:25

of it, but a lot of it, maybe I felt like I

27:27

was doing more. And

27:31

maybe I felt taken advantage of.

27:34

Ryan, what do you

27:37

think? I mean, I can

27:40

go on defense. And

27:42

I paid

27:44

for a lot of parts of that vacation,

27:46

all of that vacation, I thought pretty much equally.

27:50

I was never

27:52

living off of him. I took my favins

27:54

and went, took a leave of absence from

27:56

work and went within to Australia.

27:58

I thought I was

28:01

doing my part and contributing my part.

28:04

Was I working as hard as him? No.

28:05

He went to Indigenous

28:07

Exchange and was doing classes and he was studying

28:10

for his CFA.

28:12

And I was not. And I don't know if that

28:14

could have contributed to this. I will, here I am

28:16

just chilling. And I'm not having

28:18

to study because I've done it.

28:20

I'm a registered respiratory therapist.

28:22

I'm done.

28:24

I have my career. I

28:27

don't need to study.

28:29

So I don't know. He's

28:31

never expressed that before.

28:33

Matt, I've only just met both

28:35

of you.

28:35

And

28:37

clearly both of you, very intelligent,

28:39

very professionally accomplished. I don't get the sense

28:41

that Ruann was out hunting for

28:44

somebody with money. She seems quite accomplished

28:47

on her own. And

28:48

I'm trying to get into that

28:51

car. I'm almost trying to be in

28:53

the backseat listening in 10 years

28:55

ago. I mean, it's

28:58

a reality. Like Ruann said, I

29:00

can say whatever I want, but if there's

29:02

no prenup and we're married and the

29:05

next month she decides she made a mistake,

29:07

she can walk through with half or more or worse.

29:10

You know, that's a reality.

29:12

As a man, that's how it works. And has she ever

29:14

given you that indication?

29:17

I think at that time,

29:20

I think about in that car, there's a lot

29:22

of... Dynamics

29:28

in our relationship in the family. And

29:31

maybe it's afraid as well that, yeah,

29:34

maybe that a state should walk away. Her family

29:36

would get her ear and she

29:39

could lose her.

29:41

How about now? 10 years later, two kids later.

29:45

Has she given any indication of that ever? That

29:51

was a no.

29:52

That was a no. It

29:55

was a horrible mistake. Yeah,

30:00

it's a worst of both

30:03

worlds because she still

30:05

remembers this. This is over

30:07

a decade ago and

30:10

I don't know how to undo it.

30:12

Matt, if you could say anything about that conversation,

30:14

I'm not pressuring you to say anything you don't feel comfortable

30:16

with, but have you ever thought about

30:19

what you might do if you were in that car

30:21

in New Zealand again?

30:30

I guess I would say I don't think

30:33

of the skills then that I do now,

30:36

but what I'd say is I want to make a life together and

30:40

I want to both

30:41

commit it to that. So I wonder

30:43

if it's maybe time to turn the page on

30:46

the fears from a decade ago. I

30:50

mean, you have built a life together as

30:53

deep of an integrated life as you possibly can,

30:56

kids living together, property

30:59

together. You haven't integrated

31:01

your bank accounts, but okay, fine. You

31:03

know, aside from a joint account, that's fine.

31:07

I mean, if she was going to leave, she left or

31:09

she would.

31:10

That hasn't come up at all.

31:14

So instead of worrying about what might

31:16

be, which was like the Matt

31:18

of, I

31:19

don't know, a decade ago, it's

31:22

like, wow, what if we could actually go on

31:24

offense together and talk about all the things

31:27

that could go right?

31:29

If the two of you approached the world like

31:31

that, just for the next 60 seconds,

31:35

how do you think it would change the type of conversations

31:37

you have about money?

31:39

I think it would improve it.

31:41

How so?

31:44

I think Matt's love

31:46

language is money. His love

31:48

language is... That's not a

31:50

love language. For him it is.

31:53

Maybe if his love language is money,

31:55

maybe you should just spend some time with his

31:57

Excel models and that would actually make him

31:59

really happy.

31:59

What do you think? It would make me

32:02

so happy.

32:03

When I say his love language is mine,

32:06

he enjoys

32:08

when I

32:10

engage with him on the

32:12

things that he's passionate about. And

32:15

that is about finance and about investments.

32:18

To be honest, that's why I started

32:20

listening to your

32:20

podcast. More so. One,

32:24

you're very captivating and it's

32:26

intriguing. The other piece is,

32:30

it makes him happy. And

32:33

I think

32:34

I

32:36

haven't made him happy in

32:38

a long time.

32:40

Do you want to acknowledge

32:43

what she's been doing?

32:46

Yeah, of course. I appreciate

32:51

you taking the time and

32:53

listening and doing

32:55

this podcast. I'm sure this is a

32:58

big stretch for you.

33:00

It means what to

33:03

me? Fill it in, Matt.

33:07

It means a lot to me. You make an effort.

33:10

It's a way of showing that you care. All right. That

33:13

was nice.

33:16

Ruann, you

33:19

ever hear that before from him? Sometimes.

33:22

Not enough. Not enough.

33:26

Yeah,

33:29

showing gratitude is something I'm

33:31

not good at. But

33:34

I know that it means a lot.

33:36

I find sometimes difficult to

33:39

get Matt to be soft and sensitive.

33:42

And

33:43

I'm soft and gooey

33:45

and he's hard.

33:49

I just want someone else to help him understand

33:52

how I view things.

33:54

And also

33:55

help allow me an opportunity

33:58

to meet him halfway.

34:01

I want us to meet halfway.

34:02

I want him to understand me and I need

34:04

to understand him in order for us to be united.

34:07

To be honest, my mom, I

34:09

love her, but

34:11

my dad did everything.

34:13

I don't want to paint that picture. And

34:16

Matt knows that that's where this is

34:18

going, which is also why he's pushy.

34:21

He doesn't do it in the right way, but

34:23

he's... He

34:25

cares. He does. He

34:27

does. The

34:29

intentions are so pure. Yeah.

34:31

Execution?

34:33

That's a powerful moment.

34:35

Both of them love each other, but he doesn't

34:37

express gratitude. And she makes

34:39

jokes, like Matt's love language is

34:41

money. But those jokes actually

34:43

obscure that he really wants

34:46

quality time. Which interestingly

34:48

enough, she's been actively doing. In

34:51

many ways, both of them have great intentions, but

34:54

notice that they're dancing around what they

34:56

are doing and what they truly want instead

34:58

of coming right out and saying, I love

35:01

you. I know you value this and

35:03

I want to support you as a partner. We'll

35:06

be right back after this message from our sponsors.

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listen as we go deeper into the idea of quality

36:51

time.

36:53

I just sometimes want

36:54

to feel a part.

36:56

Give me a specific example.

36:58

He wants to buy a dream

37:00

home, a vacation

37:02

home. And I want

37:05

to do that as well.

37:06

I just struggle with

37:08

the responsibilities of it, the responsibilities

37:10

of managing it. And I'm

37:13

afraid all these investments that he puts

37:15

himself into, he takes away from

37:17

us. If there's something that happens

37:19

in the condo, he has

37:20

to leave on a weekend to go deal with it. And

37:26

we don't get that

37:27

quality time to

37:29

spend with each other. Okay.

37:31

It's funny because he's mentioned that he wants

37:34

more quality time with you. And you now mentioned

37:36

that you want more quality time with him.

37:38

I think we are so focused

37:41

on our

37:41

family and our children. And

37:45

we just don't make real quality

37:47

time for each other.

37:48

And when he- How many millions of

37:50

dollars do you need to do that?

37:52

I don't know. I don't- Matt,

37:56

you want more quality time with Iran. What's

37:58

stopping you?

38:02

I don't want to point the finger, but

38:08

I find

38:11

there's a lot of excuses about, there's a lot of reasons

38:13

why it can be difficult. But

38:15

if we both want it, we should be

38:17

able to get it done. It's

38:20

only been nine years, maybe the next 19 years,

38:23

you guys will crack the code.

38:25

What else? I mean, okay, I agree. There's

38:29

definitely reasons,

38:31

a couple who's been married a long time, who

38:34

have jobs, who have kids, of course

38:36

there's reasons not to spend quality time.

38:38

We get that.

38:40

You're both smart.

38:42

So what else? What's beneath

38:44

that, that you can't find quality

38:46

time for the two of you? Silence.

38:54

Silence.

38:56

For a long time, kids

38:59

have strained our relationship. I

39:02

think we just didn't want to spend time with each

39:04

other. I think

39:05

we, I

39:07

say this and I'm not ashamed

39:09

of it. I didn't like him for a long time.

39:14

It was hard with our second kid, our

39:17

second son. He was challenging. He was

39:20

a second born.

39:21

All second borns are challenging. All of American

39:24

can hate me, but it's the truth. He

39:29

put a wedge

39:30

between us.

39:32

I say to people all the time, I said marriage

39:34

is hard and I only started loving

39:36

my husband again recently.

39:39

I need

39:40

to show more effort.

39:43

I need to show more effort

39:45

for him.

39:47

I think that's also what brought me here.

39:50

This is me showing up.

39:52

I don't think I want to believe

39:54

that this is happening. Like

39:56

I,

39:58

I, yeah, I don't think I want to.

39:59

believe it and Matt

40:02

has tried to show me through

40:03

his Excel, through all the numbers.

40:07

I think I want to believe that

40:10

in the car

40:14

over a decade ago, but that's not the situation

40:16

now.

40:18

I think we both have to make

40:20

a real effort because

40:21

there's so much other competing priorities

40:25

with work, with different schedules, retired.

40:29

I just feel it has to be a real

40:31

priority for both of us. She's

40:34

it.

40:36

I don't think it was for a long time. I think

40:39

it was one sided. Who side?

40:42

His side more than me. And

40:45

this is my way of showing you that I want it too.

40:49

But it's hard.

40:52

I just don't think there's time for excuses anymore. It's

40:54

been years of darkness.

40:58

It

41:01

can't go on.

41:03

We always find our way through things.

41:06

Yeah, it works out. It's fine in the end.

41:09

Right. It's fine in the end. That's not

41:11

the life I want. A fine life.

41:16

Why'd you work so hard if you make millions of

41:18

dollars if you want to have a fine life? This

41:21

isn't the I will teach you to be fine show. I'm

41:24

serious.

41:26

What's the point of all this money, which is going to compound

41:28

into tens of millions of dollars? What's the point?

41:30

If it's truly serious and you were

41:33

too young parents with two kids

41:35

and you were financially struggling, that

41:37

would be hard. And that would be one thing. And that is

41:40

a lot of people around the world.

41:42

In your case, your two young parents who have been

41:44

incredibly successful in your

41:47

careers, you have tons of

41:49

money.

41:50

And you can use that to

41:52

make life

41:54

a little, in fact, a lot easier

41:56

for you.

41:57

What is the point? Why do I work

41:59

so hard?

41:59

Why should we work so hard? Stop working. I mean,

42:03

if you can't enjoy the money, you can't enjoy it together.

42:05

What is the point?

42:08

I agree. What's the point of

42:10

it all?

42:11

What do we get for our hard

42:13

work?

42:14

These are the questions you should be asking

42:16

yourself and your partner. Literally, put

42:18

your hand down and go, what do we get? We

42:21

work hard. Maybe we have a business.

42:23

We sacrifice X, Y, and Z. What do

42:26

we get? Do we get to travel three

42:28

times a year? Do we get to not have to do

42:30

laundry every day? What do we get? After

42:33

all, what's the point of working and saving and

42:35

investing? Does it mean a nicer

42:37

house? Does it mean a nicer

42:40

car or the ability to donate generously?

42:43

You have to remember that a rich life cannot simply

42:46

be chasing more money and

42:48

then worrying about more money until you die.

42:51

I wanna turn to their numbers, which is gonna

42:53

give this conversation a very surprising

42:56

perspective. Their assets. 5.5 million

42:59

dollars. Their

43:01

investments. Two million. Savings.

43:06

Debt. Two million. For a total

43:08

net worth of 5.7 million dollars.

43:13

That's actually really good. Yeah.

43:15

Thanks, man. Good. Congratulations.

43:18

All right. Fantastic work. That's

43:21

very impressive. And I like that you two are

43:24

smiling. Sometimes I get these couples

43:26

on this podcast, they have like millions of dollars

43:28

and they look so depressed. Oh,

43:32

my debt ratio is just a little too

43:34

high. I go, shut the...

43:36

Ugh.

43:37

So I like that you two are smiling about

43:39

it. Let's

43:42

keep going along the numbers, shall we?

43:44

On an annual basis, you make $649,000. Does

43:48

that sound about right?

43:51

Yes.

43:52

How come Matt answered that and not Ruann?

43:54

Ruann?

43:56

I mean, did we?

43:59

So tell me the disconnect for you

44:02

is what? Because Matt, I want

44:04

you to listen closely here.

44:05

That's combined, but most of it's him.

44:08

Okay, I agree. Your

44:10

monthly income that I see here is $5,500 a month, correct?

44:15

That's correct. What do you see in those

44:17

numbers? What does it mean to you?

44:20

I'm not worth as much.

44:23

You believe that?

44:25

Do I personally believe that?

44:27

In my heart, no, I know I'm worth a lot.

44:29

I do a lot. I'm a huge part of this. But

44:33

many is more quantifiable than

44:38

all the unpaid things that

44:40

is done. What would be some of those unpaid

44:42

things that you do in the family? Being

44:45

a mom,

44:47

coordinating the groceries, making

44:49

sure the student house, making sure there's clothes, making

44:51

sure there's clean clothes, making

44:54

sure the kids get to all their activities on time,

44:56

make sure the kids activities are paid for, not

44:58

only paid for, but coordinated, make

45:01

sure the calendar is all up to

45:03

date, make sure he knows what my schedule is. I know what his

45:05

schedule is, what the kid's schedule is, so that when he looks

45:07

in the calendar, he knows exactly what's happening.

45:10

Make sure our caregiver's

45:12

schedule is...

45:13

Sounds like a lot. And I

45:16

bet we didn't even cover a third of what you do. You

45:18

look at these numbers and you say, I don't

45:22

feel that I'm contributing as much. There's

45:24

unpaid labor, it's unquantifiable, quantifiable

45:26

stuff seems to be worth more just by

45:29

virtue of putting it on a spreadsheet.

45:31

That's actually really common.

45:33

But ultimately, we need all of us

45:35

to make it work, right? Same,

45:37

sir. Different way to look at it. We're

45:39

going to keep talking about these

45:42

numbers because I want to understand what's going on.

45:44

Delete column D. That's all the

45:46

investment property stuff. Amazing.

45:48

God, this is so good. Matt, you

45:50

want to pick up a part-time job working on some CSP

45:53

stuff for me? I'd be happy to. He's

45:56

very good. I know. Every banker's

45:59

dream. dream is that

46:01

someone goes, hey, quick

46:04

question, can you help me with my model? And they're

46:06

like,

46:07

what did you say? God,

46:10

so beautiful. Everything flows. This

46:12

is so good. 63%.

46:13

I don't really have any comments.

46:16

Whatever. 50 to 60%. Fine.

46:18

Let's move on. Investments are at 18%. It's

46:22

pretty good. And we're not even counting

46:24

the investment properties, right? So

46:28

what do you think that number is off the top of your head, Matt? 18% right

46:30

now of investments. If

46:32

we were to factor in all the money going

46:34

towards those other things. It'd be another 5%

46:36

to 10%. Yeah. So like 30% of net. Not gross.

46:39

Net. Okay, fine.

46:44

Your savings are at zero.

46:47

Why is that?

46:51

Well, it's all on the investment, I

46:53

guess.

46:54

Okay, let me cut in here. When it comes to money, the

46:57

usual rules break for the

46:59

very poor and the very wealthy. For

47:01

example, the usual advice is to aim for your total

47:04

housing costs to be less than 28% of your gross income. But

47:08

let me give you an example where this makes no sense. If

47:10

you make $30,000 a year, it's going

47:12

to be nearly impossible to hit that number. Similarly,

47:17

if you make $200 million

47:19

per year, it would be ridiculous to follow

47:22

that advice because you'd be spending tens of

47:24

millions of dollars every single year on housing.

47:28

The theory to understand is something I'll

47:30

call toothpaste and bread. Essentially,

47:33

everyone buys the same toothpaste

47:35

and bread. Sure, you might get a little bit

47:37

more expensive toothpaste, but we're talking about $3 or $5 difference.

47:42

What that means is that if you're making

47:44

hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, a

47:46

very high salary, you should have a

47:48

lot more in savings and investments

47:51

compared to a median income because

47:53

you're spending the same amount as everyone

47:55

else on your toothpaste and your milk

47:58

and your ordinary day-to-day experience. expenses.

48:01

But I see that Matt and Ruann have a zero

48:03

savings rate.

48:04

That's a big red flag,

48:05

especially because they have such a

48:08

high household income.

48:10

After listening to your

48:12

book, I was like, Oh my God. I

48:14

said to Matt last night, I was like, Oh

48:16

my God, like I could have been I could

48:18

be rich.

48:20

I had started saving.

48:23

Hold on everybody. Listen. Okay, Ruann, everybody.

48:25

I could be rich. What's that network

48:28

through Ruann, read that number off to me real quick. 5.6.

48:30

5.6 what?

48:33

Million. 5.6

48:34

million at 38 years old.

48:37

I could be rich if I had

48:39

started. Anybody know? I'm

48:44

back at my single thoughts. This is

48:47

where the single, we're erasing

48:49

that, right? But

48:50

that reaction was

48:52

my single reaction. But that's

48:54

so interesting, isn't it?

48:56

The idea that you go back to,

49:00

I am not contributing. I

49:03

don't have enough. I could

49:05

be rich had I started earlier. I

49:08

could have brought more to the table.

49:11

If I started early. Okay,

49:13

I agree with that. Sure. You could have brought

49:15

more financially to the table. Okay, you were

49:17

focused on other things. You do quite

49:19

well in terms of your job and

49:22

all the contributions that are not

49:24

showing up on this spreadsheet. And

49:27

can I just say something like at a certain point,

49:30

how much do you need? Do you both need

49:32

to bring in in order for you to win the game?

49:37

I think I just need to accept it.

49:40

I can't change your feelings. You know that. But

49:42

what I can do is to help you see

49:45

that maybe you've been ignoring

49:47

the entire game

49:49

that's sitting over here and you are

49:51

already winning it. You just don't realize

49:54

that it exists. The game

49:57

of being a great partner, being a great

49:59

mother.

50:00

investing your own money

50:02

and maybe even you starting to

50:05

create a vision together on how

50:07

you can start to use your money

50:09

today instead of just blindly accumulating

50:12

it.

50:13

What do you think?

50:15

Oh I think that's exactly

50:17

what I want. Okay

50:18

let's keep looking at the numbers.

50:20

So you're saving nothing which is insane

50:22

and then you're guilt-free spending

50:25

oh my god how are you

50:27

the only people on this podcast who are under

50:30

their guilt-free spending and you have five and a

50:32

half million dollars and then I have people

50:35

on here who make like $75,000 and

50:37

their truck costs more than their annual income.

50:40

Can you explain that to me? No

50:41

it's not. It's not.

50:44

He's keep the...toes

50:47

the line. Do you realize

50:49

how absurd it is to be

50:51

spending as little as you do on

50:53

guilt-free spending and do you

50:55

also realize that that is why

50:58

the two of you don't have quality time

51:00

together? Yeah.

51:06

Matt you get that? Yeah 100%.

51:08

How come

51:10

you're not spending like six, seven, eight

51:12

thousand dollars a month on guilt-free spending?

51:17

I don't know. Do

51:18

you even know what you would do with that?

51:20

No. No. Can I

51:22

make a few suggestions?

51:25

I want you to listen very closely to the next part of this

51:27

conversation where I talk about spending

51:29

money to buy back their time. Remember

51:32

what I said earlier most people love

51:34

the idea of buying back their

51:36

time more than they actually

51:38

love doing and this is exactly

51:41

what you're gonna hear from Ruann. We'll

51:44

be right back. Have you ever googled yourself?

51:46

Go ahead type in your name and your city

51:49

and see what pops up. Oh what's

51:51

that? Your home address is there? Your cell

51:53

phone? Now go ahead and do it for your family

51:56

members, your parents, your spouse.

51:59

See what happens. Your personal information

52:01

is being sold online and once it's out there

52:03

it's very difficult to get back in.

52:06

I certainly do not need the guy from Twitter,

52:08

Ballz47, who argues with

52:10

me over spending $90,000 on a truck

52:13

to know all my personal information. So here's what

52:15

I did. I hired Delete.me,

52:18

the service that goes out, finds

52:20

your personal information that's being sold online,

52:23

and gets it removed from the internet.

52:25

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52:58

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53:01

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53:08

a plan for you or your family. Again,

53:11

that's joindelete.me slash

53:13

Ramit. R-A-M-I-T. Now

53:17

back to the show. Let me remind

53:19

you that we have a multi-millionaire

53:22

couple here who both want

53:24

to spend more time together. Try

53:26

to spot the psychology of why they

53:28

are underspending on

53:31

guilt-free spending to buy back their time.

53:34

So, you mentioned quality time. Who

53:36

does the laundry? Okay.

53:40

Why do you do it?

53:41

That's how we broke up,

53:43

divvied up the responsibilities, I guess. Do

53:45

you enjoy it? I don't enjoy

53:47

it. It's a task that has to get done. Alright.

53:50

Plan, organize,

53:53

who's going where, when, etc.

53:56

Enjoy it?

53:58

Uh, no.

53:59

You make $650,000 a year, why are you doing laundry? There's

54:06

a famous phrase in self development.

54:09

The more money I made, the

54:11

less I could afford to do certain things.

54:15

And this gentleman was saying that as

54:17

he started to earn more money, he couldn't mow

54:19

his lawn anymore because his time

54:21

was so limited, he would rather spend it with his son.

54:25

And I wonder what

54:27

it would look like and feel like to you if you were

54:29

to contemplate maybe having somebody

54:32

else do the laundry.

54:33

So our caregiver does

54:35

the kids laundry.

54:38

So we share it. So I do

54:40

it, but between her and I, we share

54:42

it.

54:43

If someone wants to fully take it over, I

54:46

mean, if I fully gave it to her, that would

54:48

be

54:50

good, but we're also a bit

54:54

OCD and like how things are done and

54:57

folded and you know, so sometimes it's better

54:59

or less better

55:00

to do it yourself

55:01

than let someone else do it.

55:03

I know, I know.

55:05

If everyone's just listening and not watching, I'm

55:08

just shaking my head. This

55:11

is so classic. The inability to

55:13

give up control for something as trivial as laundry.

55:16

I know. I explain it

55:18

to whoever this person is, whether I'm getting it

55:20

sent out or this person is in the house and

55:23

I make it very clear, like these ones don't

55:25

get dried, these ones get hand washed,

55:27

whatever. And of course I pay.

55:29

I happily pay

55:31

for the additional service. What

55:34

is your reaction?

55:36

If it was done exactly like that, that'd be lovely. Tell

55:38

me what else the two of you could hire

55:41

out

55:42

to use your money and

55:45

buy back your time.

55:49

I mean, grocery, it would save

55:51

me a lot of time.

55:53

We can spend more time with each other, grocery

55:55

shopping, but

55:55

I do think like, the thing is I enjoy going

55:59

grocery shopping.

55:59

It's my time to myself

56:02

and there's some value

56:04

in knowing what I'm feeding my family.

56:06

Hold on. Who says that if you pay someone

56:08

that you're not going to know what you feed your family?

56:11

No, I know. I just...

56:12

Seriously, there's not. This is my... It's

56:15

your recreation time. I

56:16

don't mind it. What else? Again, you're throwing

56:18

me the ideas. I'm not telling you. So

56:21

you tell me what else could you use

56:24

money to buy back quality time with?

56:26

Babysitters?

56:27

We can get...

56:28

actually hire a babysitter because what we

56:30

do is rely on family to

56:31

take the kids.

56:34

And the family's been great.

56:36

They go... We kind of rotate between houses.

56:38

Who takes the kids? We

56:40

kind of like dangle them over their heads. I

56:42

just want to put this number back up on screen. As you

56:44

said, we could hire a babysitter. What's

56:46

that number again? Matt, read that off to me again. Total

56:48

net worth? 5... it's

56:52

going up as we speak.

56:54

5.7 million dollars and

56:56

we're sitting here debating hiring a

56:58

babysitter. I would have three babysitters and

57:01

they would be redundant.

57:03

It's very hard for me to

57:05

allow strangers to watch my children.

57:08

That's the truth. Fine. I appreciate the

57:10

truth. So you don't want to do babysitter? Fine. I

57:13

totally respect that.

57:14

What else? Maybe less...

57:16

You know, less kids activities maybe. That's

57:21

a tough one for us.

57:24

Could do less. Okay.

57:28

Can I just make an observation? You

57:32

know, you two spend under the recommended

57:35

guidelines for guilt-free spending, which is hilarious

57:38

already just because your income is so high

57:40

and your net worth is so high at such a young age. By

57:43

the way, the funniest thing is that you both want more quality

57:45

time. So it's almost like the puzzle pieces are literally

57:48

built to fit together. And when

57:50

I've asked you, how would you use

57:53

your considerable income and

57:56

wealth to buy back some of

57:58

your time and have some quality time? time with each

58:00

other and with the family, did

58:03

you notice what happened?

58:05

I did.

58:06

Yeah. And we

58:08

went through a few examples. And what happened with each of

58:10

those examples?

58:13

It gave a reason why it didn't work.

58:14

Yeah. Groceries, laundry,

58:18

babysitters, et cetera.

58:23

Now, I'm not here to tell you how to spend your money. Not

58:26

my money. But if you came to

58:28

me and you said, I want more of

58:30

a connection, I want to feel

58:32

more aligned, I want to meet halfway,

58:36

the easiest part of that is to

58:39

spend money to buy back your

58:41

time so that you two

58:43

can actually have a setting and

58:45

peace

58:47

to be able to talk about the big important things.

58:51

But if we can't even get there, if we can't

58:53

even get you out on a weekly

58:55

date, well,

58:57

the rest of it's going to be really hard.

58:59

That is the right way to do that.

59:03

That doesn't change our identity.

59:08

That doesn't, you know, put

59:11

our kids in danger and all these other

59:14

reasons or excuses, help us

59:16

find that answer. What is the way to

59:18

get that time together?

59:21

How much time do you want?

59:25

I said it was half with one week and a month

59:27

away. All right. And what about

59:30

even like, how about like a date night?

59:34

Just the two, because once a month is great, but that's

59:36

not enough. You two are really

59:38

busy.

59:41

Once a week, twice a week, twice a month.

59:44

I would

59:46

even say, because we've tried

59:48

that. We have a date night.

59:52

I think scheduled for next month,

59:54

but it's, it's, I'm now part

59:56

time. So I schedule

59:58

my.

59:59

life around the children's schedule. So

1:00:02

we just have to sit

1:00:04

down together and talk about the time.

1:00:06

Well, what do we do right now? I'm here. Go

1:00:09

ahead. Nothing like the pressure of radio

1:00:13

silence and millions of people listening to

1:00:15

expedite this. Go ahead.

1:00:18

Well,

1:00:21

you want to do every two weeks, every

1:00:25

week.

1:00:26

I think it'd be easier to start with every two weeks.

1:00:30

And then as we can

1:00:33

ease into every week, depending

1:00:36

on availability, we would have to

1:00:38

potentially find another type of another

1:00:41

person to babysit just cause

1:00:43

I don't know how available our caregiver

1:00:46

is.

1:00:47

Um,

1:00:49

so right now our next date night

1:00:51

is October 18.

1:00:54

That's a month away.

1:00:55

Yes. Yes. Um,

1:00:57

Mm-hmm.

1:01:03

What

1:01:03

you want, but

1:01:07

what you want, you want it every two weeks. I

1:01:10

think every week,

1:01:13

I think every two weeks

1:01:15

is a good start.

1:01:17

Okay.

1:01:19

Good. It's that what's

1:01:21

the date.

1:01:22

So we have August to October 4th. Well,

1:01:25

that's yeah, that's someone's birthday.

1:01:29

Um, Saturday

1:01:33

to seven,

1:01:34

seven.

1:01:35

Yeah. That looks great.

1:01:38

That's Easter weekend. I don't

1:01:41

think we have anything. At

1:01:43

least not right now.

1:01:45

I figured I know we're seeing your mom

1:01:48

on Sunday. The question is Monday. If we're

1:01:50

going to see my family for Thanksgiving,

1:01:52

but spent Saturday after, and there's no swimming,

1:01:55

so we can figure out where

1:01:57

to send the boys.

1:01:59

Okay. I can

1:02:02

put that in.

1:02:02

Can I just pause real quick? So I like this. I

1:02:05

hear like a lot of circling around and

1:02:07

like, well, there's this and that and like a lot of talking out

1:02:10

loud. And I don't mind it. This is the first time you're doing

1:02:12

this. It's helpful for me to hear. Can I

1:02:14

encourage

1:02:14

you gently

1:02:17

that

1:02:18

let's just recenter. Do we both

1:02:21

want

1:02:22

to have time

1:02:24

for each other once every two weeks?

1:02:26

Yes or no?

1:02:27

Yes. All

1:02:29

right. Saturday night. Favorite is what time?

1:02:34

I can.

1:02:37

That was pretty interesting to hear. They

1:02:39

both claim they want to spend

1:02:41

more quality time together, but when

1:02:43

they get into the details of

1:02:46

scheduling things, suddenly they

1:02:48

are stuck. They can't seem

1:02:50

to cancel any obligations

1:02:53

that they've already got. And that's why I said, hey,

1:02:55

can we recenter for a second? Can we zoom

1:02:57

up to our North star? Do you want to spend more time together? Yes.

1:03:00

This is exactly why I encourage

1:03:03

you to be very careful about

1:03:05

what you add to your fixed costs,

1:03:07

like your housing, your car, your debt, pay

1:03:09

off, all that. Because once it's

1:03:12

there, whether it's your fixed costs

1:03:14

or what's on your calendar, it is really

1:03:16

hard to take it off. And your rich

1:03:19

life can somehow turn into a nightmare

1:03:21

when you open your eyes and

1:03:23

you look at your calendar and it's filled with obligations

1:03:26

you made a year ago. You open your eyes,

1:03:28

you look at your conscious spending plan. It's filled

1:03:30

with expenses. You don't even remember

1:03:32

why you're driving this car or why you

1:03:34

bought this house or why you spending all this money on these

1:03:36

groceries. Critically, you

1:03:38

need to be careful of elevating something to fix

1:03:40

costs because once it's there, it is really hard

1:03:43

to get rid of. I'm sure you and I are

1:03:45

both noticing that there's a lot of spinning

1:03:47

happening here. Obviously, there's

1:03:49

something going on much deeper than the scheduling

1:03:52

itself. What I want to do now

1:03:54

is to dive into why. Why

1:03:57

is it that they can't commit to

1:03:59

this?

1:03:59

when

1:04:00

they claim they both want time

1:04:02

together and they're obviously both very intelligent.

1:04:05

Listen.

1:04:06

I don't think I wanna believe that

1:04:08

we've done so well.

1:04:11

Did you ever gone to couples therapy? No,

1:04:15

we've talked about it though.

1:04:18

Would you be open to the idea of

1:04:20

it? Yeah,

1:04:23

I've researched and got names. I

1:04:25

just, we just haven't made the time

1:04:27

to sit down and pick up therapists

1:04:29

together to move forward with it. If

1:04:32

I go to therapy and I reached out to my

1:04:34

therapist and asked for some recommendations.

1:04:37

Oh, great. And she gave me some recommendations.

1:04:39

I just haven't, we just

1:04:41

haven't had the time to sit down

1:04:43

and

1:04:44

made the time to sit down and look

1:04:46

at the two portfolios and decide

1:04:48

on who we'd wanna go with.

1:04:49

Mm-hmm.

1:04:51

First of all, that's

1:04:53

awesome. I would totally

1:04:55

recommend it. And I think that setting

1:04:58

that up on a weekly basis for the

1:05:00

two of you would force you

1:05:03

to at least have one hour with

1:05:05

each other at a bare minimum, okay?

1:05:09

Definitely highly recommend it.

1:05:11

Can I make another suggestion

1:05:13

of what people with a lot of money do?

1:05:16

Please. I think what I hear from you is

1:05:19

that you've accumulated all this money,

1:05:21

but you're still playing very small.

1:05:24

Would that be fair to say? I

1:05:27

mean, it's not just the groceries

1:05:30

and the laundry and all that stuff. It's

1:05:32

that people with this kind

1:05:34

of wealth who

1:05:36

have learned the skill of spending

1:05:38

it meaningfully, they spend it

1:05:41

in a way that solves a lot of problems. You

1:05:43

can't solve every problem with money, but you can solve

1:05:45

a lot of logistical ones. So

1:05:48

if you were deciding on two therapists, you know what

1:05:50

I would do? And I had that kind of money,

1:05:52

I

1:05:53

would just be like, okay, we're gonna set up appointments

1:05:55

with both of them.

1:05:58

Who cares?

1:05:59

And we'll talk.

1:05:59

to both of them and then we'll decide which one we

1:06:02

like after it. Let's just get it on the calendar and get it done.

1:06:04

It's okay to waste a little bit of money.

1:06:07

What are we talking about? 100 bucks, 200 bucks, 300

1:06:10

bucks. When you

1:06:12

have a nine out of 10

1:06:14

fire burning and the North star of

1:06:16

the two of you being connected is so powerful. I

1:06:20

will say you made time to talk to me,

1:06:22

which I totally appreciate. So I know you

1:06:24

can make time for a therapist who can guide

1:06:27

you for a long period of time.

1:06:29

What do you think? I agree.

1:06:32

You

1:06:33

know why the hesitation comes in when we have

1:06:36

those other compounding factors that

1:06:39

end up on that day that

1:06:40

make me hum and ha. I

1:06:43

try to look

1:06:43

for days that are completely clear and then

1:06:46

that would be an easier day for us to execute.

1:06:48

Do you think that that hemming and ha is

1:06:51

a pattern of yours?

1:06:54

Yeah. So whether it is something

1:06:56

as simple as a date night or

1:06:58

something as big as a condo

1:07:01

that pencils out, the hemming

1:07:04

and hawing, it's

1:07:07

actually, it would even be better

1:07:09

if you're just like, no, I don't want to do that

1:07:11

that night. Matt,

1:07:13

I see a reaction. Yes, yes, say

1:07:15

no. A fast no is better

1:07:17

than a him and a ha on a maybe. Yeah.

1:07:20

So perhaps this is the kind of stuff that comes out

1:07:22

when you, when you talk in therapy and when you

1:07:24

talk over dinner and you just

1:07:26

start to, you actually start to be able to have this space

1:07:28

to have constructive conversations

1:07:31

that are not jabs. You know, you can

1:07:33

even ask questions like, you know, what's

1:07:35

one thing you wish

1:07:36

that I wouldn't do anymore?

1:07:38

That he wouldn't leave his side of the bath

1:07:40

encounter. So

1:07:42

cluttered. Perfect. Matt,

1:07:44

what do you want to say to that? It's

1:07:47

hilarious. But

1:07:50

I can change that. This

1:07:55

is beautiful.

1:07:57

Like this, this is what this

1:07:59

is what you You two need time to do.

1:08:01

I'm glad. Yeah. All right.

1:08:04

I'm not a couple of therapists and a couple of therapists

1:08:06

can help you really well. But what I can tell

1:08:08

you is looking at the numbers, you've

1:08:10

done very well, both

1:08:13

of you. And together, you are a very

1:08:15

powerful unit. None

1:08:17

of this happens by accident. None of it. So

1:08:21

each of you has done an incredible job

1:08:24

in contributing to where you are financially

1:08:26

and as a family. But what got you

1:08:29

here is not going to get you to the next step.

1:08:31

I'm a bit puzzled

1:08:32

by my conversation with Matt and Ruann. On

1:08:36

one hand, they're both incredibly intelligent,

1:08:38

very successful, and

1:08:41

they've raised a family.

1:08:44

On the other hand,

1:08:45

with all this money, even

1:08:48

though they claim they want to spend more time together,

1:08:50

they can't seem to bring themselves

1:08:53

to do it. Even things like making

1:08:55

an appointment with a therapist seemed

1:08:58

really hard for them. Oftentimes

1:09:01

when I encounter people who have reason

1:09:03

after reason to not do something, it

1:09:06

often comes down to the fact that they don't really

1:09:08

want to. They think they want to,

1:09:10

but when we get into the logistics of it,

1:09:13

they don't really want to.

1:09:14

But I hold out hope

1:09:16

because Matt and Ruann both came. They both had a very

1:09:18

candid conversation with me. Hopefully

1:09:20

I gave them a few tools where they could build some quality

1:09:23

time. Get some additional help, hopefully from

1:09:25

a therapist. Let's see what

1:09:27

their follow-ups reveal.

1:09:46

She

1:09:53

should be thought that I was

1:09:55

trying to take advantage

1:09:57

of him and

1:09:58

use him for his money. And

1:10:00

also to hear him actually verbalize

1:10:03

and say that he's afraid

1:10:04

of losing me. Because that's something

1:10:06

that has never been told to me or vocalized

1:10:09

before. What changes do I

1:10:11

want to make, moving forward? I think

1:10:13

what I want to do is I want to, or

1:10:16

I need to do is start putting money into

1:10:19

savings. I need to do, we

1:10:21

need to do a better job at that. I'm going

1:10:23

to definitely prioritize or prioritize

1:10:25

that and go faster on the same

1:10:28

day and night so that we can have that time

1:10:30

together. I need to start working on changing

1:10:32

my

1:10:32

mindset on my

1:10:35

money to a

1:10:36

mindset of our money. I

1:10:39

also need to just spend more money on myself.

1:10:42

I was very surprised from our

1:10:44

conversation that

1:10:46

discussion my wife and I had 12 years

1:10:48

ago. That very

1:10:50

much laid the framework for a lot of our financial

1:10:53

behaviors still being

1:10:55

seen today in the way in our mind psychology.

1:10:58

I've learned a lot. I learned about communication being

1:11:00

a big, big requirement for me

1:11:02

to work on to make my

1:11:04

wife more a part of things. I

1:11:06

learned that we can and should spend more on guilt-free

1:11:09

spending. The changes we made

1:11:11

are many. We've severed

1:11:13

out the investment properties. We know exactly

1:11:15

how much cash flow is required to service those.

1:11:18

And we're looking to sell one unit. We

1:11:20

have reduced our debt servicing. I have one line

1:11:22

of credit for what, 95K? Reduced

1:11:25

it from five to 3,000 per month. And

1:11:27

that frees up more cash for good for

1:11:29

spending. We have set

1:11:32

five savings goals. I've put in

1:11:34

some quality time, sacred

1:11:37

times. It's a part of our rich life into our calendar. Every

1:11:39

two weeks we're going to have a date night. And

1:11:41

we're planning twice a year staycations.

1:11:44

We just had one this weekend for my birthday. We're

1:11:47

still looking at the vacation home or summer home possibilities.

1:11:50

We're still looking at potential couple

1:11:52

therapy options. So

1:11:54

stay tuned. Some more updates for you.

1:11:57

of

1:12:00

them have taken and more importantly the

1:12:02

realizations that they've had about their relationship

1:12:05

specifically around money. There's

1:12:08

no point in accumulating millions

1:12:10

and millions of dollars just sitting

1:12:13

around in real estate or bank accounts

1:12:15

or investment accounts without a purpose.

1:12:18

The point of money is not to accumulate

1:12:20

it and hoard it and look at it in a spreadsheet.

1:12:23

The point of money is to use

1:12:25

it to live a rich life. Of

1:12:27

course you got to save it. Of course you got to invest it

1:12:30

and you can use money to bring

1:12:33

your relationship closer together. Thank

1:12:35

you Matt and Ruann for speaking

1:12:38

to me and thank you everybody for watching and

1:12:40

listening to I Will Teach You To Be Rich. One

1:12:44

favor to ask, if you like my podcast,

1:12:46

please go to Apple Podcasts and

1:12:49

leave a written review. It really

1:12:51

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1:12:54

leave that written review for the I Will Teach

1:12:56

You To Be Rich podcast. Thanks

1:13:00

for listening to I Will Teach You To Be Rich. I'm

1:13:02

Ramit Sethi. Please follow the show

1:13:05

on Apple, Spotify or

1:13:07

wherever you listen to podcasts. If

1:13:10

you haven't read I Will Teach You To Be Rich,

1:13:12

my book, pick up a copy. You

1:13:15

can get it at any bookstore or any library and

1:13:17

it will show you the specific tactics

1:13:20

for how to build the I Will Teach You To Be

1:13:22

Rich system into your personal

1:13:24

finances.

1:13:28

Thank you.