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This is a CBC podcast.

0:35

Welcome to ideas. I'm Nala

0:37

Ayed.

0:42

We live in unsettled times.

0:46

Whether it's the escalating climate

0:48

crisis, a volatile political

0:51

landscape, or the alarming

0:53

rise in disinformation and

0:55

hate.

0:59

How did we get here? and

1:01

where are we going?

1:03

To help search for answers, ideas

1:06

presents a five part series

1:08

the New World disorder.

1:13

On this episode, the Nature

1:16

of Nationalism,

1:17

a shaped shifting ideology.

1:23

Take the war in Europe. One

1:26

form of nationalism and justifies Russian

1:28

aggression.

1:31

While another fuels Ukrainian

1:33

resistance

1:34

The more Russia tries

1:36

to pull Ukraine in, the stronger

1:38

people's sense of identity becomes.

1:41

This factory used to make hotel uniforms

1:43

Now it's flags. Lots of them.

1:46

Excessive nationalism has

1:48

empowered colonialism and

1:50

empire building.

1:51

It's led to the persecution of

1:53

ethnic and religious minorities.

1:55

Arms outstretched

1:58

Rohingya Muslims and makeshift

1:59

camps caught desperately for precious

2:02

handouts of food. Aid is finally

2:04

reaching some of those who fled violence in

2:06

Myanmar. But Yet,

2:08

nationalism has also played

2:10

a part in freedom movements

2:11

from the French revolution

2:14

to the Arab spring.

2:19

It does not seem that they

2:21

are going to be easily satisfied unless

2:23

the president himself ALF BAND

2:25

DOWN.

2:26

AS WE'VE SEEN HISTORICALLY,

2:29

AND AGAIN RECENTLY NATIONALISM

2:32

TAKES ON THE CARrot of those who

2:34

use it

2:34

or abuse it. Viktor

2:37

Orban,

2:38

famed for his autocratic, ill

2:40

liberal style of government, and

2:42

his very close ties to Vladimir

2:44

Putin. Chinese

2:47

state television again put the country's

2:50

military might new Taiwan on

2:52

menacing display.

2:53

Today, president Trump welcomed Brazilian

2:55

president, Jair Bolsonaro,

2:57

there's really no other leader anywhere in the

2:59

world who has so openly tried

3:01

to copy the Donald Trump model.

3:03

Keep America great

3:06

exclamation endpoint, keep

3:08

America going.

3:12

Many critique nationalism as

3:14

inherently flawed, But

3:17

for worse and for better,

3:19

it's there, it exists, and

3:22

those political movements that

3:24

use it will have

3:25

a more powerful set of messages

3:28

when they do.

3:30

Idea's

3:30

producer, Lisa Godfrey,

3:33

takes a step back to get

3:35

some perspective on the nature

3:37

of nationalism.

3:42

Let's start with the obvious question.

3:45

How can we look at nationalism broadly

3:48

when

3:48

each country has its own history,

3:51

identity, and internal relationships.

3:54

Anyone

3:54

who has studied nationalism

3:56

in

3:56

a comparative way will tell

3:58

you

3:59

It's

3:59

a very humbling exercise.

4:02

Harris Milonas and Maya

4:05

Tudor know that firsthand. They're

4:07

political scientists and collaborators, and

4:10

they've surveyed different examples of

4:12

nationalism across the globe, as

4:14

well as the ways in which it is understood.

4:16

in theory and practice.

4:19

Yet

4:19

even the definition of nationalism

4:21

is varied, ranging

4:23

from the nearly poetic to

4:25

the quite pragmatic.

4:26

The latter kind of view comes

4:29

from sociologist

4:30

Ernest Galner.

4:32

It's

4:32

a definition that refers to nationalism,

4:35

as a political principle or an

4:37

ideology

4:38

that renders the state

4:40

and the national boundaries

4:42

congruent. which seems straightforward

4:45

enough until you consider things

4:47

like disputed boundaries and

4:49

nations within nations. So

4:51

that's not uncontested and that's not

4:53

the only definition, but that's the

4:55

most common definition, I would say,

4:57

used across social science

4:59

disciplines. Now other people have

5:01

defined it in multiple other ways. Howard

5:03

Bauchner: The

5:03

one definition I would add

5:06

is the definition by another

5:08

sociologist

5:08

Benedict Anderson, and he calls

5:11

the nation and imagined community.

5:13

And both parts of the definition

5:15

are important community because

5:18

it's a meaningful community for many

5:20

people,

5:20

but it's also unique because

5:23

it's imagined. As

5:24

Benedict Anderson himself blamed

5:27

in nineteen ninety one.

5:28

Most of the nations we know today,

5:31

the people in them will feel loyal to them,

5:33

in fact, don't know who the

5:36

vast majority of their fellow nationals are. They

5:38

will never meet them. They don't know who their names

5:40

are. And yet, they feel this

5:42

strange sort of abstract solidarity.

5:45

and it's not even living people. The

5:47

loyalty it can be usually

5:49

are to generations

5:51

of dead people, an even more extraordinary

5:54

generations of people who never been I've

5:56

not yet been born.

5:59

We won't

5:59

see or meet most

6:01

of the people that we share a national

6:03

identity with, but we imagine

6:05

ourselves to belong to that

6:07

community on the basis

6:08

of something. which

6:11

makes, of course, the basis of that imagining

6:12

incredibly important.

6:15

I'm Maya Tutor. I'm an associate

6:17

professor in politics and public

6:19

policy at Oxford University.

6:22

And I've written a book called The

6:24

Promise of Power about the

6:27

Rule that Nationalism plays. in

6:29

building India's democracy?

6:31

I'm Harris Mihonas. Or

6:34

me on Nas, if you wanna go with

6:36

my actual pronunciation of my name.

6:40

And I'm an associate professor of political

6:42

science, George Washington University.

6:44

And I'm also there the director in chief of

6:46

journal that deals with NASH socialism called

6:48

national national newspapers.

6:50

And my first book was on

6:52

the politics of nation building. And

6:54

Harris and I are currently

6:57

finishing a book called varieties of

6:59

nationalism. Verides

7:00

because these two scholars

7:02

believe that nationalism has demonstrated

7:05

that it can have neutral and positive

7:07

aspects too. It's an

7:09

idea that's been difficult to consider because

7:12

of the last century or so of

7:14

history.

7:16

A century after a hard

7:18

fought peace, dozens of leaders

7:20

gathered in Paris to show that the

7:22

world remembers

7:23

the great war. I think

7:25

it's probably not really

7:27

contested or questioned that nationalism has

7:29

a negative connotation. And

7:33

that's a legacy

7:33

certainly of the

7:35

twentieth century wars in

7:37

Europe

7:37

that were catastrophic that

7:40

powered wars and

7:42

to genocide and involve

7:44

much of the world in one of

7:46

the greatest losses of human life

7:48

that the world has ever known. and

7:52

that has tinged nationalism with

7:55

a sense

7:57

that it is a force that is primarily evil

8:00

Albert

8:00

Einstein famously called nationalism,

8:03

the measles of mankind,

8:04

and that

8:06

connotation has stuck.

8:08

BUT FOR ALL THE EXPRESSIONS

8:10

OF UNITY, THE HOST FRONT PRESIDENT

8:13

EMANUEL Macron DELIVERED A

8:15

POINTED MESSAGE ABOUT THE LESSONS

8:17

OF WORLD WAR I. AND ADMINITION

8:19

THAT APPEARED AIMED AT PRESIDENT TRUMP

8:21

WHO CALLS HIMSELF A NATIONALIST.

8:23

NATIONALISM

8:27

is a betrayal of patriotism

8:30

by saying, Archer's first,

8:32

who

8:32

cares about the others president

8:35

Trump and Vladimir Putin extremes.

8:37

But it's both Harris

8:37

and I right in our in some of

8:39

our joint work. Nationals in first

8:41

emerged as a force, to

8:44

take power away from

8:45

monarchs and from far away

8:48

states, to legitimize a

8:50

government in the name of a people

8:52

so to create democracies. And that

8:54

was true not

8:54

just in Europe, but across the colonized

8:57

world, most people, peoples

9:00

use nationalism, to

9:02

power the creation of democracy.

9:04

And so I

9:06

think one of the key messages that Harris

9:09

and I put forth in our

9:11

work is that nationalism is

9:13

neither inherently good nor

9:15

inherently bad. It's like

9:17

battery that can power a whole range

9:19

of political projects and aims.

9:21

But it's also a mistake, I think,

9:24

to imagine that

9:26

we live in a world without nationalism.

9:28

It's there, it exists, and

9:31

those

9:31

political movements that use

9:34

it will have a

9:36

more powerful set of

9:38

messages when they do.

9:39

Nationalism has its uses, says

9:41

Harris Milonas. it's

9:43

a political principle that definitely

9:46

facilitates cooperation. Right?

9:48

So in a way it solves a

9:50

collective action problem. Now obviously, cooperation

9:52

amongst humans can happen

9:55

for good or bad reasons.

9:57

Right? So corporation doesn't

9:59

have

9:59

a clear direction

10:01

or value assigned to

10:03

it. It could be

10:04

cooperation for the good or for the the

10:07

bad of society or humanity, what

10:09

have you. I would add to that also

10:11

though that

10:12

It's an ideology that helps us helps

10:15

humans broaden the circles

10:17

of belonging and solidarity.

10:20

So obviously, for anyone who

10:22

knows anthropology, we know

10:24

that societies were not as large as

10:27

they are today in the past.

10:29

So in order for

10:31

humans to go beyond their own family,

10:33

biological family or their

10:35

clan, too much larger collective

10:38

margineries like the ones that Maria

10:40

talked about, it's a crucial

10:42

ideology that helps us move

10:44

from the family or the kin group

10:46

to a national community, which

10:48

means that cooperation is taken at a different

10:50

level. Now the critic can come from

10:52

people who want a lot even larger

10:55

circle of belonging a solidarity

10:57

that we could call cosmopolitan or

10:59

supernationalists who are

11:01

now satisfied with that level of analysis, but

11:03

we shouldn't forget that nationalism

11:06

was an ability to help us move

11:08

this

11:08

and open up the circle belonging

11:10

quite a bit. with all the eels that

11:12

also brought to our lives.

11:14

One's personal experience of

11:16

nationhood often comes through

11:18

family. It's informed

11:20

by where our parents and grandparents

11:22

and ancestors came from. And

11:24

like so many people, these two

11:26

scholars have complex roots.

11:28

I

11:33

was born

11:35

in India to an Indian

11:37

father with a German

11:39

mother and a German passport.

11:42

My great grandfather was

11:44

born and raised in what was the Ottoman

11:47

Empire. I

11:47

then moved

11:48

to Germany when

11:51

my parents separated. I then

11:53

gained a an American stepfather,

11:55

hence my accent, and now

11:57

live in the United Kingdom,

11:59

where

11:59

I teach even from all over the world.

12:02

And his son, my grandfather, had

12:04

to flee the country that

12:06

he was born or the area that he was born

12:08

and raised because of a obligatory

12:10

population exchange between what came

12:12

to become Turkey after the collapse of the

12:14

Ottoman Empire. And Greece, where I

12:16

am right now talking to

12:18

you from and he was

12:20

made the refugee through what I would

12:22

call nation building policies. Right?

12:24

So he was excluded because of

12:26

his religious aviation. He was

12:28

an orthodox Christian in a Muslim

12:30

dominant country.

12:32

I myself have

12:33

a national identity that

12:35

is at least multiple and some

12:37

might say confused, but

12:39

that taught me very

12:41

early on about the importance

12:43

of switching of being

12:46

able to

12:46

adopt to the norms and

12:49

the rituals of different kinds of

12:51

societies and cultures.

12:53

And grandmother from

12:56

Novozysk in temporary Russia

12:58

was half Greek, half

13:00

Russian, and Seemed had to feed the Baltic

13:02

Revolution at time? You

13:04

know,

13:04

my German grandfather who

13:07

was drafted into the German army

13:09

and fought on behalf of

13:11

the Nazi government. in Greece,

13:13

actually.

13:13

And that was a nationalism

13:16

that was invoked

13:16

to destroy democracy in

13:19

Germany.

13:20

And from the other side, I have a grandfather

13:23

who came to fight in war two

13:25

against Italian fascism in the

13:27

Albanian front. and then couldn't go

13:29

back to Crete where he was from, but

13:31

he wasn't officially part of Greece.

13:33

And he stayed in the north where

13:35

the refugees settled, then my

13:38

family became one. And

13:40

my Indian grandfather worked

13:43

for the British government in

13:45

India. but had his life

13:47

upturned by a nationalism that

13:49

was invoked to create democracy. And

13:52

so for me, this

13:54

very simplistic view that

13:56

nationalism undermines

13:57

democracy or undermines or

13:59

it's an

13:59

inherently bad force. was

14:02

considerably more complicated.

14:05

Knowing

14:05

that story, I think you can understand why

14:07

I was interested in what I call nation building

14:10

policies. and trying to

14:12

understand the logic that drives

14:14

those such policies and how people

14:16

become core nationals, how

14:18

people become refugees or how they end

14:20

up becoming minorities? Howard Bauchner:

14:22

So

14:22

it got me to think about what is

14:24

that national identity and and

14:27

can only have one. And

14:29

it is also certainly

14:31

what motivated me to study

14:33

nationalism

14:33

as a political principle.

14:36

Her

14:36

own background has also led Maya

14:38

Tutor to look at how nationalism operates

14:41

in a wider range

14:42

of countries. much of the research on

14:45

nationalism does focus, I think, on

14:47

Europe's experience. And beyond

14:49

Europe, there's

14:50

a lot more clarity that

14:53

nationalism has been

14:53

used as a force to soldier together

14:56

all kinds of diverse peoples

14:58

and cultures with different kinds

15:00

of

15:00

languages such as in India.

15:03

Twenty percent of the revenue of British

15:06

India was collected from the

15:08

land. Even the most common

15:10

of every common man's need

15:12

solved was

15:13

taxed. In

15:14

nineteen thirty,

15:15

The same year that the Nazi party

15:18

was gaining power in Germany, a

15:20

quite different form of nationalism, a

15:23

people struggle was taking hold

15:25

in India. Dan

15:27

Fiji decided to launch the civil

15:29

disobedience movement. and at

15:32

the end of the three hundred and eighty

15:34

kilometer journey to

15:36

manufacture salt. and

15:38

thereby, break the entire

15:40

in customary law.

15:45

On the twelfth of March, Mahatma

15:47

Gandhi embarked on his

15:49

historic march, which

15:51

was to shake an empire and

15:54

eventually changed the

15:56

course of the destiny of

15:58

India.

15:59

That both Hitler and

16:02

Gandhi were go with the nationalists,

16:03

I think, is something really

16:04

important to contribute to the conversation.

16:07

Twenty

16:08

first century nationalism in India

16:10

surprises even Maya

16:12

Tutor because it deviates from the

16:14

nation's foundational identity.

16:17

India's constitution declared

16:19

it a sovereign

16:20

socialist secular Democratic

16:24

Republic in nineteen forty nine.

16:26

India

16:26

was not a country that was built on

16:29

a particular ethnic religious

16:32

linguistic tradition. It was a

16:34

country that, at its founding,

16:37

not because of

16:39

particularly strongly felt ideals,

16:41

but

16:42

because it was in the interest of elites

16:45

and power at the moment

16:47

that the nation was created to

16:48

create

16:49

an inclusive national identity. So

16:51

a national identity that

16:54

was equidistant from

16:56

religion major religions, and it

16:58

was equidistant from the

17:01

different kinds of ethnic groups and

17:03

cast groups. And even with respect to

17:05

gender, it was an incredibly inclusive

17:08

constitution at a time when Switzerland

17:10

didn't even allow women the right

17:12

to vote. So So it was

17:14

an incredibly inclusive national

17:16

identity. The

17:18

flags fly

17:19

everywhere. Filling the stadium

17:21

in India's capital WITH A SEE OF

17:24

Saffron

17:24

WHITE AND GREEN. THE CROWD

17:25

IS IN THE THOUSANDS. FULL

17:28

OF ENHUSIASM, EAGER

17:30

TO SEEING INDIA'S NATIONAL AMTHA.

17:32

Here in India's seventy fifth

17:34

anniversary year, its nationalism

17:37

has changed character, particularly

17:39

over the eight years

17:41

at Narendra Modi. has been its prime

17:44

minister. He has

17:44

been able to supplant

17:47

that inclusive

17:48

national identity with

17:50

identity that embraces the religion

17:52

of the majority and that is

17:55

Hinduism. And

17:55

that has been surprising to me

17:57

given its history.

17:59

But I think India is actually a country that

18:02

has grown very fast and

18:04

it's I've seen an upwardly mobile

18:07

middle class. that middle class has

18:09

come from all sectors of

18:11

society and it's included groups

18:13

that had traditionally been thought of as

18:15

coming from the lower part of the socioeconomic

18:18

spectrum, so lower casts. And as

18:20

those lower casts have become upwardly

18:22

mobile, the single group that is

18:24

the most consistent voter

18:26

for Modi are

18:29

wealthy upper cast induced. And

18:31

it's because they see other groups rising

18:33

relative to them. That

18:35

anxiety around change and

18:37

perceived lost advantage is

18:39

not confined to a single country, of

18:42

course. Many observers see the international

18:44

rise of nationalism as

18:47

backlash to the way the world economy

18:49

started to integrate itself

18:50

after the fall of the Berlin Wall

18:52

in nineteen eighty

18:53

nine. The organization

18:55

for economic cooperation

18:57

and development puts it this

19:00

way.

19:00

Over the past three decades, the

19:02

effects of globalization have

19:03

intensified, both influenced

19:06

by and allowing the emergence

19:08

of high growth economies as major

19:11

players,

19:11

digitalization

19:12

and the further financialization of

19:14

our advanced economies. Globalization

19:17

has generated many benefits for

19:20

society. However, its

19:22

benefits have been unequally shared.

19:24

Everything from Brexit to the election of

19:27

Donald Trump has been called a

19:29

reaction to globalization. The

19:32

inward turn of nations. the

19:34

return to old hierarchies, and

19:36

the hardening

19:36

of borders. Some

19:38

see it as a new nationalism.

19:41

Maya Tutor and Harris

19:44

Milonas simply see it as a known

19:46

nationalism subvariant. exclusionary

19:50

nationalism.

19:50

Nationalism has always been there

19:53

as a latent political force.

19:56

And we live in an era

19:58

where globalization has

20:00

perhaps challenged welfare

20:02

states and has integrated economies

20:05

into global economies that see pronounced

20:07

swings up and down. I think we

20:09

are seeing nationalism partly

20:11

as a response

20:11

to that. And that is

20:15

natural because identities that are

20:18

threatened are ones that

20:19

people often cling

20:22

to more. that's a

20:24

recurrent finding in social

20:26

psychology that identities under

20:28

threat tend to be more

20:30

vigorously embraced. And

20:33

because our national welfare

20:35

states and perhaps

20:37

larger portions of immigration that

20:39

we've seen and then other times in

20:42

world history, those are forces

20:44

that are perhaps

20:46

leading to a

20:48

resurgence of nationalism and because

20:50

those national identities feel threatened.

20:53

But nationalism has always been

20:55

there and it's very likely to

20:57

continue to be there for the

20:59

foreseeable future. I

21:00

agree totally with my the only thing

21:02

I would add is that nationalism

21:05

existed in the past, but many

21:07

of us or many scholars thought that this circle of

21:09

belonging we talked about would

21:11

always enlarge itself. And I

21:13

think what's new and what has

21:15

led many people talk

21:17

about what they call new nationalism is

21:20

this fact that suddenly countries that

21:22

had enlarged the circle of belonging

21:24

and they had become more In quotation marks

21:26

progressive in the way they define

21:28

the nation. Such countries, like

21:30

the United States, seem to

21:33

constrict the answer to the

21:35

question, who are we?

21:36

Who are we?

21:37

Not them, said the American

21:40

president himself naming names for the

21:42

first time in a recent speech.

21:44

Maggie Republicans do not respect

21:46

the constitution. They do not believe

21:48

in the rule of not recognize the will of

21:50

the people. They refused to

21:52

accept the results of a free election, and

21:55

they're working right now as

21:58

I speak in state after

22:00

state to

22:00

give power, to decide

22:02

elections in America, to

22:04

partisans in cronies, democracy

22:06

seems considerably less

22:08

settled now, some

22:10

thirty years after what political scientist

22:12

and author Francis Fukuyama called

22:16

end of history.

22:18

What

22:18

we could call the equilibrium

22:21

that had been reached of a liberal

22:23

international order with nation states

22:25

that are progressing towards more

22:28

inclusive definitions of nationhood. That

22:31

was undermined by a

22:33

combination of factors, I think, broadly

22:35

speaking, we can say, in the qualities

22:38

that were a result of

22:40

how globalization occurred you

22:43

have people who are living in

22:45

rural areas of developed states

22:47

that do not have the education

22:49

to keep up with the changes that come with

22:51

globalization, cannot pop with the

22:53

changes that come with new understandings of

22:55

nationhood that may be introduced,

22:57

the pace of change has been

22:59

so rapid for some people that they couldn't

23:02

keep up And I think that's behind some of the backlash

23:04

or some of these new nationalism

23:06

that people are observing and the

23:08

success of populist leaders. and

23:11

of course, social media.

23:13

Fake news or a difficulty

23:15

of checking the quality of the information that

23:17

is being So this

23:20

combination, I think, are behind this

23:22

backsliding I talked about, what

23:24

is being perceived as a new

23:26

nationalism. Here

23:26

in North America, we associate all

23:29

of that with a Trump style

23:31

populism, but

23:32

it goes beyond America. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

23:34

I was having hungry also in

23:36

my mind. I mean, urban success is

23:38

not unrelated to the things I'm talking about.

23:40

The

23:40

prime minister of Hungary Viktor Orban

23:43

has secured a fourth

23:45

consecutive landslide election victory, long

23:47

known for his anti immigration

23:48

policies. In a recent xenophobic

23:51

speech,

23:51

Orban likened migrants to a

23:53

flood being forced upon Hungary and decried

23:55

a mixed race society.

23:57

Ladies and gentlemen, this is

23:59

how we fight a speech

24:02

by Prime Minister of Hungary,

24:03

Victor Orban. Fresh

24:05

from his

24:06

victory, Hungary's prime

24:09

minister undertook some international

24:11

travel this past summer

24:14

First, he went to see Donald Trump in

24:16

New Jersey and then

24:18

went south to Texas. To

24:20

give a speech, at the Conservative

24:22

Political Action Conference.

24:24

I am here to tell you

24:27

that our

24:27

values, the nation,

24:29

nation Christian

24:31

roots and family

24:33

can be successful in

24:35

the political battlefield. We

24:38

made

24:38

these values successful and

24:40

the

24:40

mainstream in Hungary. Don't

24:43

worry, a Christian politician

24:45

cannot be racist. He

24:47

spoke of values, religion,

24:49

Yet,

24:50

Viktor Orban is seen as achieving

24:52

his political victories with the

24:54

help of legal manipulations

24:56

and gerrymandering. That made

24:59

his advice for the American

25:01

audience going into their

25:03

midterm elections, all the

25:05

more

25:05

chilling. it is not enough to know

25:07

what you are fighting for.

25:10

You also have

25:12

to know how

25:14

you should fight. My answer

25:17

is play by

25:19

your own rules. Exclusionary

25:22

nationalism, united

25:25

uniting

25:25

across international borders.

25:28

So let's

25:28

go out and do it. God bless

25:31

us. God bless our friendship.

25:33

Good luck and goodbye.

25:42

You're

25:42

listening to ideas an

25:44

episode on the nature of nationalism.

25:46

It's part of our

25:48

series called The New World

25:51

Disorder.

25:52

ideas is a podcast and a broadcast.

25:55

Heard on CBC Radio one in

25:57

Canada across North

25:59

America

25:59

on SiriusXM, in Australia on

26:02

ABC Radio National and around

26:04

the world at cbc dot c

26:06

a slash ideas.

26:08

You can

26:08

find us on the CBC listen app

26:10

and wherever you get your podcasts. I'm

26:14

Nala Ayed. Hey.

26:16

I'm

26:18

Tamara Candacker, and I grew up at

26:20

the intersection of a bunch of different cultures.

26:22

And that gave me a deep appreciation of

26:25

other places and an understanding of

26:27

how connected we all are.

26:29

That's why we called our new podcast

26:31

nothing is foreign. This is world

26:33

news that recognizes for part

26:35

of

26:35

a global community, a

26:36

series for people who want the view from the

26:39

ground. Nothing is foreign comes out

26:41

every Friday. Find it on CBC

26:43

Listen or wherever you get your pod

26:45

CAS. JULY one,

26:48

twenty twenty,

26:49

OTTAWA. Andrew:

26:50

Hello, EVERYONE, AND HAPPY CANADA

26:52

DAY. There

26:52

is no candidate celebration on

26:55

Parliament Hill, mere months

26:57

into the pandemic.

26:58

Instead, the prime minister stands

27:01

outside his home and speaks to the

27:03

nation. Today, we

27:04

celebrate the amazing place we call home

27:06

and the people we share it with. Whether

27:08

you're firing up the barbecue or heading outside

27:10

with the kids, This is a chance

27:12

to reflect on where we are as a country,

27:15

where we're headed from here. The last

27:17

few months have been hard. There's no question

27:19

about that. But throughout this pandemic,

27:21

we've been there for one another because

27:23

that's what it means to be

27:25

Canadian. A year

27:25

and a half later in

27:28

Ottawa, The

27:30

long lasting anti vaccine,

27:32

anti mandates, anti

27:35

government protests, known as the

27:36

freedom conflict.

27:38

I'm staying. I'm not leaving until

27:40

the mandates are gone. There are

27:42

people who simply object to public

27:45

health measures but there is also hate on

27:47

display and organized far

27:49

right extremism. There

27:51

were

27:51

not sea fly three

27:54

percent are white nationalist ones

27:56

too. The imprisoned and hang

27:58

Trudeau signs and

27:59

the organized his written demands,

28:02

they, along with the governor general, form

28:04

a new government.

28:09

Justin Trudeau has frequently called

28:12

Canada a country built on

28:14

shared

28:14

values. Canada's success

28:17

is because of its people, people

28:19

like you. people who strive to live

28:21

up to our shared values of peace,

28:23

equality, and compassion. People

28:25

who believe in the strength of our diversity.

28:27

and people who know that it's only together, that

28:29

we can build a better country.

28:32

But divisions

28:33

are now on display.

28:36

So who is the

28:37

we really? Do we

28:40

have

28:40

enough common

28:42

ground? That is a

28:43

question that goes beyond can

28:46

and to the heart of this

28:48

discussion about the nature of

28:50

nationalism. Here again is

28:52

ideas producer Lisa Godfrey.

28:57

At

28:57

the very beginning of the pandemic,

28:59

we associated the virus with

29:02

particular individual nations.

29:04

Why

29:04

do you keep calling this the Chinese virus at

29:06

all? It comes from China. It's

29:08

not racist at all. No. Not at all.

29:10

It comes from China.

29:13

hospital admissions are also up, including

29:15

in Tehran, Iran's most populated

29:17

city and financial center. This

29:19

is daily life under lockdown in

29:22

Italy. all good measures that countries

29:24

should practice according to the World

29:26

Health Organization. As COVID nineteen

29:29

quickly spread worldwide COVID

29:31

nineteen can be characterized as

29:34

a pandemic. People

29:36

desperately thought about how safe

29:38

their own countries were.

29:41

about

29:41

borders as a kind of defense.

29:45

Many

29:45

citizens look to their own governments

29:47

for guidance and aid and

29:49

in a global world, the nation for

29:52

better and worse was top

29:54

of mind again. There

29:56

is

29:56

false the pandemic reinforced

29:58

and reinscribed national discourse,

30:00

national practices, nationalism, as

30:02

an ideology. Political

30:03

scientist, Harris Milonas,

30:06

edited a recent issue of the Journal, Nationalities

30:09

Papers, looking at

30:11

nationalism through the lens of the

30:13

COVID-nineteen

30:14

pandemic. sovereign

30:17

findings came up.

30:19

We had consensus for most

30:21

of the authors that nationalism

30:24

was exacerbated itself

30:26

by the pandemic in the sense that

30:28

nationalism was emboldened or

30:30

was reinforced let's say, as a trend, as an

30:32

ideology, it made it

30:34

more visible, turning

30:36

into heroic act options, things like

30:39

staying in your house. You were

30:41

operating as a good picture by

30:43

doing that. One

30:46

German commercial showed an old man of

30:48

the future sharing twenty twenty

30:50

battle stories. We mustered

30:52

our courage and did what had

30:54

to be done. NISHED. NOTHING. Reporter:

30:57

ABSOLUTE CANICS BANFOUND VDVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

31:04

Amit

31:04

all of the very bad news, there were

31:06

moments of national levity like

31:08

these. The were all in

31:10

it together a moment. But

31:12

in a global pandemic, some

31:15

ask if the we should not have been

31:17

more inclusive.

31:19

Of course, people who think through international

31:22

organizations, lenses, would say,

31:24

well, imagine if everybody dealt

31:26

with it from a global perspective,

31:28

yes, obviously, that would have been better. But the point

31:30

is what's feasible rather than what's ideal

31:32

or what would be the theoretical

31:35

best way. nationalism

31:38

helped at the national level to

31:40

get compliance from people for

31:42

really strict measures that did

31:44

save lives including vaccinating

31:46

people in various countries, right, in

31:48

in mass, but also

31:50

undermined in many cases through

31:52

vaccine nationalism and through the

31:54

slow distribution of the vaccine in

31:56

the list developed world, it slowed

31:58

down the fight

31:59

against COVID-nineteen. His

32:01

collaborator, Oxford University's

32:03

Maya Tutor, agrees about

32:05

the global health downsides of

32:07

vaccine nationalism. But

32:10

when each of us think about

32:11

what we remember in terms of

32:14

broad political moments from

32:16

the pandemic, all of us probably

32:18

remember our national leader standing

32:20

in front of a national flag

32:22

telling us to stay home.

32:26

Branchises and compatriots, but a compatriots.

32:29

Canada

32:29

hasn't seen this type of civic

32:32

mobilization since the second

32:34

World War. Each

32:35

and every one of you as part of that third line

32:38

-- -- because you acted specifically

32:40

minded. Every American is a

32:42

role to play in defending our

32:44

nation from this invisible, horrible

32:47

enemy.

32:48

That is how you will serve your

32:51

country and how we will

32:53

all serve each

32:55

other. Each of

32:56

those leaders drew

32:58

on that glue that holds us

33:00

all together, that solidarity to

33:03

say do

33:04

your duty to the nation.

33:06

And that was an incredibly

33:08

important resource for motivating

33:11

people. not just to stay home, but also

33:13

to wear masks, to

33:15

not see their loved ones on

33:17

birthdays and holidays, we

33:19

needed nationalism to

33:20

be invoked at those moments. We

33:22

did

33:23

find the trend that it was

33:25

more difficult for countries

33:27

that had the contested definition of

33:30

neighborhood fragmentation, especially

33:32

popular fragmentation about how

33:34

different groups and society understand

33:37

but it means to be x, y, or z,

33:39

whatever, put the nation's name

33:41

there. That

33:42

made it much

33:43

harder for those states

33:46

to deal with the pandemic. They had

33:48

more dissenting voices, more polarization

33:50

over all these aspects of

33:52

the pandemic that were contested

33:54

in many cases. Canada

33:56

with its convoy protests

33:58

wouldn't seem to fit that

33:59

bill. But the question,

34:01

who are can

34:03

emerge anywhere in times of crisis.

34:06

Nationalism

34:06

is actually quite a thin sense

34:09

of belonging and one

34:10

of the ways in which nationalism varies is actually how thick it

34:13

is. So when you say, what does it mean

34:15

to be a Canadian? What

34:18

what

34:19

does that mean to you? How many things can you say?

34:21

And the more that you can say that fills that kind

34:23

of category or bucket of

34:26

things that being in

34:28

Canadian means the thicker the

34:30

national identity is. And

34:32

all things being equal, thick national identities

34:35

are I think a really positive

34:37

thing. But not every resident of

34:39

a nation agrees on the things that make

34:41

up that thickness. They may

34:43

not

34:43

relate to it, see

34:45

themselves in it, or even

34:47

believe that identity

34:50

is true. One of

34:51

the reasons that racism Canada because of the commitment

34:53

to being perceived as a haven

34:55

of racial tolerance. This

34:58

place patents themselves on the back denying access

35:00

to safe, livable space

35:02

without ourselves, our strength, and

35:04

our resilience, we wouldn't be here.

35:10

Myatouder thinks that

35:10

one of the problems may be that

35:13

we live in a constantly shifting

35:16

presence yet our nations

35:18

are forged in the past. There's

35:20

an almost in built conservatism to

35:23

the nature of the

35:25

national identity. That's because In England,

35:27

the nation is personified by the mark. In Malaysia,

35:29

the Malaysian nation is

35:32

personified by

35:34

the sultans and the king among the sultans. In

35:36

Japan, it's the emperor. And those

35:39

figures often represent certain

35:41

kinds of religions and with certain kinds

35:44

of racial and ethnic

35:46

backgrounds. And I think that's

35:48

why many of the new

35:50

nationals that they hark back to those

35:52

older definitions of nations

35:54

that do often have a lot

35:56

of purchase for people because it's what

35:58

they have been taught the nation represents

36:00

through history books and through what they learned in their classrooms.

36:02

But national identities are

36:04

not static. They change over time.

36:08

In

36:09

striving to create a thick sense of national identity through

36:11

history and tradition, nations

36:14

sometimes risk promoting a

36:16

flawed past. and

36:18

narrowing the more modern sense of belonging for

36:21

all. The founding of the

36:22

United States didn't include women,

36:25

it didn't include non property

36:27

owners, it didn't include anyone who

36:30

wasn't white. And that

36:32

identity has evolved and it's

36:34

evolved because in part

36:36

America has though a dual national

36:38

identity, though, of course, has

36:40

certainly been built on a national

36:42

identity that

36:44

has systematically other blacks, that

36:46

that national identity has at the

36:48

same time because it is

36:51

principal because it lays down a set

36:53

of ideas. Those principles have

36:56

been invoked time and time

36:58

again to expand the ambit of

37:00

national belonging. So first,

37:02

in the nineteen twenties, to include

37:04

women, to include property owners

37:06

earlier and sense that civil

37:08

rights movement to include

37:10

blacks more consistently in the America

37:12

national

37:14

fabric. So I do think that having a

37:16

national identity that articulates

37:18

a set of principles

37:21

is an important important way

37:23

in which modern national identities can be consistent with

37:26

democracy. Articulating

37:28

principles

37:28

and act Lee

37:30

living by them are two different things. If

37:33

nationalism is an

37:36

imagined community, The reality

37:38

for certain groups is quite often

37:40

something different and more

37:42

discouraging. But my

37:44

tutor says, the aspiration to live by principles

37:46

remains vital. We all fall

37:48

short of principles. We

37:49

at our personal lives aspire

37:50

to at at some points.

37:54

that doesn't mean we shouldn't have those

37:57

principles. We shouldn't strive to fulfill our

37:59

desires to be principled in

38:01

in some respect. So

38:04

I do think that national

38:07

identities are

38:07

important parts of our

38:09

identities. Something I often

38:11

say is we all

38:14

love

38:14

our families uniquely and fiercely.

38:16

We

38:16

devote particular and thick

38:19

love to

38:20

our own families. that

38:22

love can go wrong. That love can be used

38:25

to other people all the

38:27

time. But the reverse

38:30

is not true in the sense that we shouldn't that doesn't mean should

38:32

not devote particular and

38:34

thick love to our families. It means

38:36

that we need to be careful As

38:39

we

38:39

know, national histories can

38:42

include terrible things with

38:44

repercussions for today's citizens.

38:47

genocide. colonization, slavery,

38:50

holding those

38:51

dividing stories alongside the

38:53

ones that unite

38:56

us. is

38:56

the challenge. I do think that if you don't

38:58

feel that your own history

39:00

is told or your own group's history

39:02

is told, it's hard to

39:04

feel part of something that

39:06

has historically been defined

39:08

a project, an identity

39:10

that has been defined by

39:12

making you a second class citizen. So I

39:15

do think, again,

39:15

that underscores

39:18

the need to

39:20

invest in pluralizing that

39:22

national identity. She points to

39:24

an example from her own experience.

39:28

I did two of my degrees at what was then

39:30

called the Woodrow Wilson School

39:32

of Public and International Affairs. Now,

39:36

since I got my degree, that

39:38

school's name has been

39:39

changed because of Woodrow

39:41

Wilson's Checkard history. Wooder

39:43

Wilson was an American president who at the

39:45

on the one hand was the

39:48

single most important force

39:50

behind creating the League

39:52

of which was a precursor to United Nations, which was

39:54

a realm which has spawned all kinds

39:56

of

39:56

international organizations such as peacekeeping

40:00

forces and and, you know, world

40:02

health organizations that have been important and, of course,

40:04

addressing the pandemic, all these

40:06

mechanisms of cooperation. And at the

40:08

same time, he resegregated

40:10

American government. Yeah.

40:11

It's a complex question, but it ain't

40:13

so complex. If you can't get to the

40:15

absence of it, as a nowadays, an archways, a

40:18

premises, and a question to the

40:20

institution. At what side of history

40:22

do you stand alone.

40:24

So, you

40:25

know, that is a checkered history as

40:27

an individual, but all

40:30

the nation's histories are record, and I think

40:32

to acknowledge that history.

40:34

And at the same time, to celebrate things

40:36

that hold us together is a crucial

40:40

part of an

40:40

effective nation state. Because a nation

40:42

is an imagined community, but it's

40:45

an imagined community that is

40:47

something very special.

40:49

It

40:49

legitimates the use of state

40:52

power. So

40:52

we need that power to

40:55

address the challenges

40:56

of our time. Governments

40:57

do that external work on behalf of

41:00

citizens, but mistrust

41:02

in institutions and governments by

41:05

more than one side of the

41:07

political spectrum is another complication

41:09

for national cohesion around

41:12

and around we seem to

41:14

go. anyone

41:14

who has studied nationalism in a

41:16

comparative way will tell you it's

41:19

a very

41:19

humbling exercise. So

41:22

we can't claim to know the intricacies

41:25

of every case. And as you've

41:27

seen here today, we're

41:30

addressing most of your questions

41:32

through the examples we know best.

41:34

In

41:34

this year of pivotal midterm

41:36

elections for America, Harris Meline

41:39

asked is thinking about his adopted home.

41:41

If I

41:41

were to speak about the United States where

41:44

I've been living in the past twenty one years, not

41:46

being a citizen, though, speaking about

41:48

nationalism. We could

41:50

say that the

41:52

polarization you're talking about is

41:55

not just the result of nationalism or understanding of nationhood.

41:57

There are also very

41:59

specific domestic institutions

42:02

like redistricting and partisan boundary boundary that

42:05

happens, that exacerbates these things.

42:07

It brings people more apart on

42:09

top of social

42:12

media. So there it's not just an issue of nationalism.

42:14

I don't think we should blame

42:16

or praise nationalism for

42:18

everything that is happening. But

42:22

nationalism could be

42:24

a do sex machine in some of these

42:26

cases. So I would reverse now and say,

42:28

You may have all these problems of polarization and

42:30

their mandering and social media and so forth, but

42:33

you also have this institution

42:35

called the presidency the

42:38

president whoever that is

42:41

articulates discourse in the

42:43

public sphere. And that discourse

42:45

can bring

42:45

people together or bring them

42:48

more apart as we've

42:49

seen both types of

42:51

discourses coming out of

42:53

mouths of presidents. So

42:55

from that perspective, I would

42:57

say that nationalism or

43:00

national discourse of a

43:02

particular type, a type that

43:04

is as inclusive as

43:06

possible given the circumstances that the

43:08

country is going through articulating

43:10

such a discourse from a position of

43:12

power can go a long way.

43:14

And

43:14

then citizens have choices

43:16

of who to vote or and

43:19

can make a a difference from that perspective. So, both.

43:21

A choice

43:23

available in democracies However,

43:26

fraught and

43:26

complicated that process can

43:29

be. So to

43:30

is expressing the

43:32

full an often contradictory story of what a nation

43:34

is, the good and

43:36

the

43:37

bad. Maya Tutor believes that work

43:39

has to begin

43:40

early. the

43:42

first time we leave homes and are in

43:45

spaces where we learn that we're

43:47

part of a larger grouping

43:51

it's in the classrooms typically.

43:53

And so it has to

43:55

start there. And a

43:57

careful curation

43:58

of who

44:00

we are is crucial

44:03

and

44:03

that will be a complicated

44:06

telling and it's

44:08

not to

44:08

come to stories that are faithful

44:10

to identities that already exist

44:12

and have already been forged for

44:15

parents. And so generational

44:17

change and that is

44:19

difficult and fraught, especially in

44:21

polarized societies. But it's not just

44:23

in schools, it's in places

44:25

like museums and in monuments, lots

44:28

of tacit ways in

44:30

which, you know, who's on our currency,

44:34

what is the national flag? What does that actually represent?

44:37

So recently, for example,

44:39

in New Zealand, had a a

44:42

referendum on what its national

44:44

flag should look like. That

44:46

referendum didn't pass a new

44:48

national flag. but it

44:50

provoked a very serious national

44:52

discussion about who the we

44:54

is and

44:54

how we understand the we, and

44:56

we often carry that around those ideas

45:00

cassently, and there's value in

45:02

articulate them, those ideas

45:04

explicitly. Thank you,

45:05

speaker, honorable

45:07

senators, I today to recognize world

45:10

refugee day. The story of a

45:12

nation also changes frequently

45:14

because our

45:14

world is constantly in flux.

45:17

All

45:17

told today, there are more than one

45:20

hundred million people who have

45:22

been displaced. This is a

45:24

new high a hundred million

45:26

people is more than the entire

45:28

population of the UK

45:30

or the entire population

45:32

of France all the entire population of

45:35

Italy. It is more than twice

45:37

the population of Canada. If you

45:39

pull together the

45:40

world. People are becoming and

45:43

they try to find places where the labor

45:45

market can actually absorb them.

45:47

They try to find places

45:49

where their social values will

45:51

be respected or they don't have to change them as much

45:54

as they would in another place.

45:56

Sometimes they follow

45:58

Kinship Networks. other people from the country that they

46:00

know are in country x or

46:02

y. And, you know, an ethnic

46:04

community is created, an ethnic

46:06

enclave of

46:08

some sorts. because it's easier for

46:10

people to find a job and learn the language and get socialized when they have

46:12

people from that country already

46:16

there. So that's the

46:18

demand side, let's say, that's the from the

46:20

side of the refugees. But from

46:22

the the side of the

46:24

receiving country, country

46:26

of residence, that country has to decide whether it's going with a

46:28

simulation or integration with these

46:30

populations. And on top of that,

46:32

what type

46:34

of constitutive story or understanding of nations that it has. And

46:36

that's a multi factor

46:38

equation. Howard Bauchner: It's true especially

46:40

for refugees and immigrants

46:44

but

46:44

it's true for everyone

46:46

that I in the we is

46:48

complicated. It can feel more

46:50

comfortable to

46:52

stay within your group. We all have

46:54

lots

46:54

and lots of identities and they coexist

46:57

within us. Right? We have with

46:59

our families and more sports fans and

47:02

more members of social clubs. And

47:04

those all have identities associated with

47:06

them. And there's no

47:08

conflict between being a member of

47:10

a family and being a good neighbor. And just as much as there's

47:12

not a conflict there, there need not being

47:14

a conflict between having a

47:17

kind of microintersectional identity

47:20

and

47:20

an

47:21

identity that is still a member

47:23

of the nation. so long

47:26

as, and I think here's the critical

47:28

part, that groups feel

47:30

welcome in that national

47:31

community, and they feel recognized in that

47:34

national community

47:35

And the challenge often

47:37

is, is that

47:39

there

47:39

are systems of privilege

47:41

built into

47:42

those national stories that

47:45

you only see

47:46

when

47:47

you're not part of the

47:49

privilege. And

47:50

that's I think what's so difficult

47:52

is you know, to say, well, you know, that that story doesn't

47:54

privilege me. And when it does represent

47:56

you, you sort of you see that you

47:58

don't see

47:58

it at all. It

47:59

seems invisible. and so you don't see it

48:02

as problematic. And so

48:04

thinking about

48:06

how

48:06

we tell those national stories

48:08

and spaces is so important

48:11

because going forward, we're

48:13

going to need that

48:15

solidarity in solving these really

48:17

important political

48:19

challenges before us. political

48:20

challenges, and

48:21

existential threats.

48:24

Pakistan's army is

48:25

now scrambling to protect a crucial

48:27

power plant in

48:30

one that supplies electricity to millions of pakistanis.

48:32

Even as more

48:33

rain is on the way, the

48:35

effects of climate change

48:38

crystal clear in a nation that barely

48:40

produces carbon emissions and yet is bearing the brunt of the devastation

48:42

fueled by greenhouse gas

48:46

emissions. Here

48:49

in Canada,

48:50

some still see

48:52

individual liberty as the most

48:56

important issues. It

48:56

only takes one generation

48:58

to let freedom slip, and

49:00

then you

49:00

have communist China. You have Putin's

49:04

Russia. And I don't want that here.

49:06

It could be that we've grown a

49:07

little complacent about national

49:10

solidarity here.

49:12

After all, Canada has survived a Quebec referendum or two,

49:15

and it remains standing. Even as

49:17

the truth and reconciliation report,

49:21

laid waste to the

49:23

official version of

49:24

history and

49:26

identity. But

49:26

we notice when new fault lines

49:28

appear in the political realm, IN

49:32

ALBERTA, A PROVINCIAL LEADERSHIP CANDIDATE

49:34

WHO HAS RUN ON A

49:35

SOFTENCY ACT. WE WANT TO BE TREATED JUST

49:38

LIKE QUÉBEC. That's what the sovereignty act is. It's putting the federal government on We

49:40

intend to defend our constitutional jurisdiction

49:42

and defend the rights of our citizens.

49:45

through the and freedoms. And I believe we already have a

49:48

mandate from the people, especially because And

49:50

in Pierre Polyev, a

49:52

populous

49:52

conservative leader,

49:54

happy

49:54

to welcome all the disaffected

49:56

into his tent. That's why

49:58

I'm running for Prime Minister to

49:59

put you back in charge of

50:02

your life. Together,

50:04

we will make Canadians the freest

50:06

people on Earth with freedom to

50:08

build a business without red tape or

50:12

heavy tax. freedom to keep the fruits of your labor

50:14

and share them with loved ones

50:16

and neighbors. Freedom

50:18

from

50:18

the invisible thief

50:19

of inflation Freedom

50:22

to raise

50:22

your kids with your values. Freedom. To

50:25

make your own health and

50:27

vaccine choices, freedom. to

50:29

speak without fear and freedom to

50:32

worship god in your own

50:34

way. See, in a

50:36

free country, smaller government makes

50:38

room for bigger citizens.

50:42

Whether these

50:43

political divisions will shrink

50:46

Canada's common ground further and more

50:48

permanently remains to be

50:49

seen, but there are harrowing

50:51

examples out there of

50:54

what happens when nations

50:56

truly cannot overcome internal

50:59

divisions?

50:59

Well, history has shown that

51:01

countries that have had the hard

51:04

time overcoming such problems,

51:06

have often either broken

51:10

up. Partitions

51:10

mostly violent

51:12

partitions or secessionist movements.

51:15

Very rarely,

51:15

we could get a voluntary

51:18

partition, a mutually agreed upon

51:20

partition like in of a

51:22

Slovakia. At very extreme cases, you could

51:24

even go into what scholars

51:26

would call state dash or

51:28

others have talked about fail states where they

51:30

continue existing, but they don't

51:32

operate. They don't function actually as

51:34

they are supposed to. They can't really

51:36

legitimate their authority in

51:38

any way. I mean, they sound a little bit apocalyptic, but they have

51:40

happened and they're happening as we speak in

51:42

many parts of the world. It's just that we're not we

51:44

just didn't end up talking about Yemen or Somalia

51:46

land or Ethiopia

51:48

right now, but there are many places

51:50

today, as we speak, not

51:52

to mention, of course, Russia's

51:54

war in Ukraine, which is

51:56

more prominent in our minds partly because of the geographic location,

51:58

I think. But there are

52:00

multiple cases of what I'm talking

52:02

about, which may sound apocalyptic, but

52:06

it's actually our reality. And speaking of our

52:08

reality, so

52:08

many of the problems

52:10

that

52:10

we're looking at, urgent problems

52:14

and crises, to

52:16

solved

52:16

at a global level.

52:18

Climate, health, inequality. What

52:21

are the prospects

52:22

are the prospects for that for that? in

52:24

a world of nationalism. Nationwide

52:26

states can be a part

52:28

of the solution.

52:30

They can

52:32

be agents in addressing climate change and

52:34

acting collectively. And I

52:36

think if we can take

52:40

nation states

52:41

that define themselves in

52:43

part as being good members

52:45

of the international community,

52:48

then that I think is a

52:50

resource for solving those problems. It

52:52

doesn't underline those problems.

52:54

That being said, you know, I

52:56

don't

52:56

don't want to sound too Pollyanna this

52:58

year, leaders are going to be elected

53:00

to defend the interests

53:02

of their citizens. And that

53:05

means their citizens first and

53:07

foremost. So it will be harder

53:09

to address problems of collective action

53:12

where we all need to

53:14

act collective and and shoulder are fair

53:16

share

53:16

of the burden. There doesn't

53:18

seem

53:18

to be another ideology

53:22

that

53:22

can motivate people and get people

53:25

to follow leaders into

53:28

true hardships. and

53:31

press severe more than nationalism can.

53:32

So until another

53:36

ideology, another

53:37

legitimating principle

53:39

of governance, emergence that

53:41

can get millions of

53:44

people, billions of people in

53:46

some countries, to actually

53:48

cooperate and coordinate around

53:50

certain principles, I don't

53:51

think nationalism is

53:54

going anywhere.

54:05

You've been listening

54:06

to an episode about

54:08

the nature of nationalism with

54:10

political scientists and authors, Harris

54:13

Milonas, and Tutor. You can find

54:16

more information on our website,

54:18

cbc. c a

54:20

slash IDS.

54:23

This episode was produced by

54:25

Lisa Godfrey and is part of the

54:27

New World Disorder series all

54:30

this week on ideas. What

54:32

producer for ideas

54:35

is Lisa Ayusho. Danielle

54:37

Duval is technical

54:39

user. Idea's

54:40

senior producer is Nicola

54:43

Lukich. Executive producer

54:45

is Greg Kelly,

54:46

and daimler i

54:48

hat.

55:02

For

55:02

more CBC podcasts, go to cbc dot

55:05

c a slash podcasts.