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1:38

You are listening to IFanboy's Talksplode

1:41

with Rob Williams. ♪

1:43

Do you have the brakes again ♪

1:46

♪ Why do these brakes keep skipping ♪ ♪

1:48

Why does it take it out of the way ♪ ♪

1:51

Why Does this someone overtake him? ♪ ♪

1:53

I'm going out for a little drive

1:55

♪ ♪ And It could be the last

1:58

time I See your life ♪ Flanagan

2:04

with I Fanboy as a possible

2:06

contrast Krieger interview conversation show ah,

2:08

shows do in February, but let's

2:10

not talk about that. I'm excited

2:12

to talk to Rob Williams today

2:14

in about a twenty year career

2:16

in Comics Guy, he's worked a

2:18

lot on judges read: two Thousand

2:20

a D are both honey of

2:22

American comics as well. I'm at

2:24

Marvel and Dc and and a

2:26

whole bunch of great creator own

2:28

projects are most recently Petrolhead, some

2:30

Image Comics or with Artist Pie.

2:33

Far has just been following us away.com

2:35

or really said it gets us to

2:37

talk to Rob, a really thoughtful writer,

2:39

and I was just get. Sam's

2:42

are swelling and I here with Rob

2:44

Williams A Rob. Treasury

2:46

they're anti sodomy on I very

2:48

welcome. I'm I'm glad to want

2:50

to get ya on the show.

2:52

I admit, I'm I. I've

2:55

seen a lot of your web read a lot

2:57

your work over the years in a sort of

2:59

sense as me, but I'm gonna tell you I

3:01

have a relative ignorance of judged read and this

3:03

is me. Saying I know that.

3:05

Everybody in the world knows it and I'm not going to try

3:08

to fake it that I know it really well, but I do.

3:10

I. Do have questions and can I'm interested in

3:12

it? Ah, and so don't be surprised when

3:14

I have no idea what I'm talking about

3:16

when it comes thread. I. Wouldn't

3:18

be surprised when I have very little idea

3:21

about what I'm talking about when I answer

3:23

your questions. but I'll give it a that's

3:25

that's absolutely fair and I think we we

3:27

can go with that. I'm. So how

3:29

to do and we always a comics kid

3:31

had it Has you come to the art

3:33

form? what? what was what was? You know

3:35

I was comics. party your life early on.

3:38

It just kind of always was I I

3:40

I just remember sit as. Being. Brought

3:42

to the Bureau mafia marble reprints in

3:44

the Uk we used to get sued

3:46

of black and white. Reprint.

3:49

Civil Spiderman, Fantastic Fools.

3:52

And. Then there was a great bunch

3:54

of amazing British comics to like. A

3:57

bit later on T So City which was huge for much.

4:00

Rationing and remain so, but. There

4:03

was those comics. When you rotate about

4:05

all this like football comics, hims really

4:07

have a Rover six battle. There was

4:09

more comics. I'm. I'm so

4:11

that that was just something. I always loved

4:13

them and you know, when I hit But

4:16

fifteen? I. Have is the

4:18

first time I ever went to a the

4:20

independent comic shop. I didn't even. Because

4:22

where I grew up was like nowhere near.

4:25

There. Were no comic shops they were

4:27

barely barely shops that just tennessee

4:29

and but I'm I'm given when

4:31

you're a kid when used to

4:33

do you would they would bring

4:35

of Dc comics oh of as

4:38

ballast the ships which is absolutely

4:40

true and so. You would

4:42

do it when these agents and you

4:44

can go. My dog was this is

4:46

amazing sort of Justice League is she

4:48

with a with fight in dark side

4:50

and he would never never ever will

4:52

be an amazing cliffhanger. You would never

4:54

ever get to see the second part

4:56

so that a deeply flawed storytelling the

4:58

his sense of narrative is embedded in

5:00

me from that point basically And and

5:02

then I get like say about fifteen

5:04

sixteen. Fun! Of it was the I

5:06

Gotta Love a National Tommy Some Which Is Forever People

5:08

in Bristol that was heat me in the first time.

5:10

I have a winning. The. Timing

5:12

been so to the effect of like

5:15

to issues of Watchman One issue of

5:17

them Dark Knight Returns. You. Know

5:19

not not a bad pivotal sort of

5:22

his comedy. It was that about when

5:24

those came out where those contemporary yeah,

5:26

Yeah. Yeah I like being released then on

5:28

I just found him to walk in and out

5:30

because I knew Alan Moore from from to the

5:32

right to two thousand and he on our pick

5:35

this up and month and. I

5:38

wasn't. I was probably love.

5:40

This is I would say eighty cents. on

5:42

to be fifteen years old and I'm okay.

5:45

And. Solar just of the peak

5:47

time and yeah was never liked soccer

5:49

anyway. long story short comics role was

5:51

part my life. Loved collecting them. loved.

5:54

X Men and I love Bolland D C

5:56

and to says maybe I am. I never

5:58

ever saw a do. Relive it would let you.

6:00

Didn't think you could mean I grew up in the South Wales

6:03

valleys, which is a very. Industrialized.

6:05

Pods. The of a Uk which

6:08

is at several hours away from said

6:10

of Can you know any major city.

6:13

Am aiming just not something me I

6:15

had know contemporaries on no no relatives

6:17

who worked as right as or anything

6:19

Evelyn. Evelyn worked like a lorry drivers

6:21

and will some local factory and things

6:23

like that. So we've just not. A.

6:26

Possibility and but I decided to be

6:28

trying to be a journalist and long

6:30

story short I would to june this

6:32

for several years and. On I

6:35

thought I'd write one comic and I just

6:37

yeah just a scratch the itch because I

6:39

always loved comics and M double school class

6:41

sworn it was released and good. I'm gonna

6:44

say two thousand Year, two thousand and one

6:46

as through a small independent. British.

6:48

Company called Comics. And

6:50

and class Will did very well. I got

6:52

good reviews and suddenly yeah, Marvel and Dc

6:55

in two thousand eighty Raskin me. If I

6:57

wanted to pitch for them and send the

6:59

a good, it opened up new avenues for

7:01

me in the I'd that I can. I

7:04

spend a large part my career. The Tang

7:06

is probably my comics career As a journalist

7:08

of the same kind of those reading comics

7:10

have any just kind of than a journalism

7:13

went away and I've just been pretty much

7:15

doing comics apart from from film and tv

7:17

stuff ever since. Little

7:20

back a little that someone you know, younger

7:22

and you're in the comics is it's everybody

7:24

around like are your friends me, thomas to

7:26

you or that like this. The thing you

7:28

have you know is is it. is

7:31

kind of the same however many comic book nerd

7:33

thing that has really around anymore but when you

7:35

were younger we all on your owner. Yeah.

7:38

Kind of of he would sounds very sad but it's

7:40

one of it's. a friend of mine I am not

7:42

to me. I understand. Mind

7:45

who he had comics as well and that the

7:47

it that there was not a big. Comic

7:49

seen in my school but about way it

7:52

was kind of just me, but there was

7:54

a great kind of joining going. There's a

7:56

there's a local market a called on the

7:58

priests and go down. There were just reams

8:01

and reams of secondhand Marvel and Dc books

8:03

and you come back with tax or them

8:05

and his son. Yeah.

8:07

It was some yeah that was Doubled

8:09

glove. My little happy place in the

8:11

you can. but I'd I genuinely didn't

8:13

know. I. Went to my says

8:15

comic convention in. I'm

8:17

gonna say two thousand and. Two

8:20

thousand Two thousand and One You know I

8:22

just I was. I have some of my

8:24

list. Just

8:27

before because I was when I went with

8:29

his comic convention and comments were there. And

8:31

I brought in this script and handed it to them this big

8:34

the you know if I had no idea what I was do

8:36

and I didn't know you had the pitch. I

8:38

didn't I didn't know what I was doing

8:40

article Britain, The Script Ego and then three

8:43

months later I think they say rang me

8:45

at the Blue. I. Miss It! We

8:47

read this and we really like it and. So.

8:49

It was like a very lucky right place,

8:52

right time and kiss. Analyzed. it

8:54

probably never would happen for me. So

8:56

would you decided that a comic script

8:58

did you? Have you know where

9:00

to start? Had you know what format is that had

9:02

you. I like questions bus

9:04

or was go with that likely thought almond read a

9:06

comic scripts where'd you go from there. I

9:09

think it was. At the time is

9:11

like is pre internet that's how old the

9:13

I am so but I think in the

9:15

back of the Sandman graphic novels there was

9:17

a script of elderly was a full script

9:19

but there was pages of script and that

9:21

was kinda like okay that's how you do

9:23

it because he was just seemed like some

9:25

weird mystery prior to that and I think

9:28

as well enough to in a Judge Dread

9:30

annual in the eighties. don't mind that is

9:32

like one of the globe. Hold.

9:34

On comic like As and and of Your Legend

9:36

in the British Seems and there was one of

9:39

his tix trade scripts. And again it

9:41

was. A lot of like the

9:43

scripts a very. Third, Really good

9:45

if you want to get in to writing

9:47

comics read write scripts to. This is very

9:49

sort of tourists and very they've is no

9:52

meat on the bones and it's kind of

9:54

them and so that was a very good

9:56

way of sort of. Kind.

9:58

of any kind of extraneous bullshit, you

10:00

might feel I'm going to splash

10:02

my ego all over the page and Wagner

10:04

scripts are very, here's exactly what an artist

10:07

needs and no more. So

10:10

yeah, I mean, it was that. But then even then you

10:12

go into your first one and you don't know what you're

10:14

doing. So you're going to go, I'll write nine panel pages

10:16

on several pages in a row.

10:18

Any artist with their right mind is going

10:20

to throttle you if they get that script.

10:23

So you know, you do a lot of your learning

10:26

on the job and in public really. And which

10:28

is, I guess I should be you just need

10:30

to have patient people with you who recognize you've

10:32

got a bit of talent, but perhaps your, your

10:35

grasp of reform needs a bit of,

10:37

um, needs a bit of work. So

10:40

were you a kid, you went into journalism, but

10:42

were you a kid who had

10:44

stories in your head, things that you wanted to

10:46

tell, you know, fiction? Yeah,

10:49

kind of. I could see sort

10:51

of, I could see sort

10:53

of ideas for films and things like that, but I

10:56

just didn't have structure. I just

10:58

really, a big thing for me, I was

11:00

several years into being, and

11:03

I studied creative writing in college. I did a degree

11:05

and I specialized in creative

11:07

writing where I learned nothing and was taught absolutely nothing.

11:09

They just sat us in a room every day with

11:11

a bunch of other people on the course and we

11:13

would all read our stories to each

11:16

other. And the, the, the lecturer would then say,

11:18

well, what did you all think of Rob's story?

11:20

And everyone stick with Oren,

11:22

but no one taught you basic

11:25

writing structure. And I think if you want to do this

11:27

for a living, that's

11:30

what you need to grasp more than anything else, because

11:32

you can have talent and all these things, but, you

11:34

know, having a fundamental understanding of story, you

11:37

know, a story starts middle ends, what the

11:39

people want, what's stopping them getting it, all

11:42

these building block things, which, you

11:44

know, just like every story that we

11:46

love has, um, you

11:49

need to, you know, you need to learn

11:51

those to actually do this for a living because, you know,

11:53

I've said many times, most days you

11:56

sit down and you are not particularly inspired. The muse

11:58

does not come down to you. you,

12:00

you know what I mean? But you kind of go, I kind

12:02

of know what this what a story needs. And

12:05

it's almost like learning to be a carpenter, you know what I

12:07

mean? You just the

12:09

difference in sort of like a rickety chair, which

12:11

might look beautiful, but it's going to fall apart.

12:13

And first time anyone sits on it compared to

12:16

a really solidly structured piece of furniture, which is

12:18

a very unglamorous way to talk about writing. But

12:21

I think what you do is you kind of

12:23

when you have that down, when you've learned these

12:25

basic structural rules, then you can build

12:27

beautiful things on top of it. And it'll, it'll

12:29

stand up. But I went to I

12:33

forget at which point my career it was

12:35

maybe five years into my comics career. And

12:37

I went to there's a screenwriting guru called

12:39

Robert McKee, who does these sort of these

12:42

lectures around the world. And

12:45

I went to see him in London for about three, four

12:47

days. And I learned more in three, four days with Robert

12:49

McKee than I did in three years of my degree, to

12:51

be honest, she was specializing in creative writing. And

12:54

it was all this type of stuff, you know,

12:56

and there's a lot of books out there which

12:58

teach you about screenwriting structure. And they're

13:01

enormously useful. But also, I

13:04

know a lot of people are very dumb on them,

13:07

because they feel quite rightly that they can teach formal

13:10

writing. And absolutely, that's true.

13:12

But I always think like, before someone like

13:14

Miles Davis learned to be the greatest jazz

13:17

musician in the world, he

13:19

learned basic musical structure, and then he ripped it all apart

13:21

and did whatever he wanted with it. So

13:23

I think you've got to learn

13:25

these things. And then once you've got that your

13:27

craft down, then you're free to sort of be

13:29

as creative as you want to be within that.

13:33

So how long are you into making comics

13:35

professionally, not necessarily as your career, when you

13:37

feel like you have a

13:40

handle around that concept

13:42

of story? Because it is one of those

13:44

things where eventually you hear,

13:46

you know, professional writers can really

13:49

break it down and talk about it, you know,

13:51

in a concise way. And then, as you said,

13:53

lay those things around it. When

13:55

did you I Will

13:57

hear professional writers talking, I Don't think, wow, where did you

13:59

learn? This part of when did that come

14:01

along? So for you. When

14:04

did you. You know when did you understand it

14:06

in the in that way that that sort of your

14:08

the bones of the. At Geoff. John's explain

14:10

this to me where he said to me once where

14:13

he's like if you're an architect, you don't to house

14:15

and you would see. This, the structure

14:17

is and is like and that's what I ended up

14:19

doing with story and I was like yes make you

14:21

know and watch tv with and he said yes yes

14:23

when did you sort of your head around that. I'm

14:26

a long time me and this is like be

14:28

taught in school with you. You'll. Soon

14:30

on the job and sometimes you get

14:32

opportunities early early days in your career

14:34

and you're not ready for it because

14:36

you don't have those basic stretches deaths

14:39

but I'm be probed. You've got enough

14:41

about you I guess York for people

14:43

to keep to hire you because is.

14:45

Is exciting things you're doing and six

14:47

or stuff. it's just fun on the

14:49

pace, good grasp of terrorists to you've.

14:51

always probably got these things in your

14:54

locker. Yeah, But. You don't' Have

14:57

them you not fully formed. Yeah, you know when I

14:59

think I'm so tired of it is working as well.

15:01

We were good at it. as big as a lot

15:03

of good at it. As active as Law but eight

15:05

it as out there. Who can. You

15:08

know, don't help you with this stuff when

15:10

perhaps you could. you could use it, you

15:12

know, lemons and. Gives. You gotta

15:14

kind of like I think you do your own

15:16

learning but and part of it is you are

15:18

chipping away as you as you go. But I

15:21

would say I mean I've probably been doing comics

15:23

over twenty years now. Maybe maybe this when he

15:25

twenty two and muggy longer. I'm.

15:28

Probably sort of changes in before trying

15:30

to go see another. Don't get me

15:32

wrong, Or not Say no. I

15:34

target and everything from Ten Years Home is

15:37

a perfect piece of wood from school. You

15:39

still screw up to know what I mean.

15:41

You can still, you can still kind of

15:43

go three quarters of a way to a

15:45

story sometimes ago. Why isn't this bloody thing

15:48

work in this? something? fundamentally dismissive. So easy

15:50

to miss things. But I do think. The.

15:53

Basics, You know once you kind of

15:55

have a good solid sense of the

15:57

basics of storytelling, send them. Yeah,

16:00

it's tough to do a fundamentally bad piece of work,

16:02

but I'm sure I can find a way to do

16:04

it if I really try. So,

16:09

classwork gets published.

16:12

I actually, I'm not going to tell you

16:14

that I remember anything about the story, but I do remember

16:17

a friend of mine recommending it to

16:19

me at that time. So, I can tell you that I was

16:21

in Los Angeles at the time, I want to say. My roommate

16:23

was like, you've got to read this book. So,

16:26

it made that word of mouth thing around. It was

16:28

early in those days. Comics. I don't know, is that

16:30

a website also? Yeah,

16:32

but they were a

16:35

design company in London. They'd made

16:37

a bunch of money from design

16:39

work, and they were comic fans,

16:41

and they decided that, like, oh, we're going to go out and we're

16:43

going to take over the comics industry. Which

16:46

they didn't achieve, but what they did achieve, what we

16:48

were very good at is having an eye for young

16:51

talent. They hired people like Ben Oliver,

16:53

me, Trev

16:55

Haysine, Neil Guge.

16:59

And they put together this really kind of, there

17:01

was a lot of energy about it at the time, and you

17:03

know, and it just, if you

17:05

have a reality in the industry, I think just couldn't

17:07

hold. They came in

17:09

going, we're going to do amazing paper stock,

17:11

and it's going to be beautiful to hold.

17:13

That's actually true, but that kind of destroys

17:15

any profit, immediately. I've heard that story.

17:18

There's been a bunch of publishers who did that. And

17:20

it's like, why can't comics be the most beautiful things

17:22

to hold and feel and touch? And you go, yeah,

17:24

because no one makes any money out of it. But

17:28

they had great intentions, and they gave me

17:30

a chance, so God bless them. And

17:33

you went in with a script. There wasn't finished

17:35

art, right? Or

17:37

did you have it wrong? You went

17:40

in with, you just had a script, right? They

17:42

weren't like finished pages? They introduced me to

17:44

Trev Haysine, and a Trev,

17:47

an amazing artist, because he's got

17:49

the power of Neil Adams about

17:51

his work and bits of Jim

17:53

Lee in there as well. And

17:56

So I was just incredibly fortunate they teamed me

17:58

up with a great artist. Them and a

18:00

Trevon. I got to be yeah. Good friends and

18:02

we work closely together on him. Enough to three

18:05

issues. Marvel

18:07

basically. So. What trade

18:09

was doing and they they punched him

18:11

to go off and do Captain America

18:13

phone number. So then I was canal

18:16

will lucky in that class. Won and

18:18

co Maxwell we'd have a seven day

18:20

we fund til trouble. Foreman and travel

18:22

was disease. yeah again just unbelievably good.

18:24

So I just completely fell on my

18:26

feet and just like buses to artists

18:28

I got to work with was just.

18:32

Fantastic. And both very different. The very

18:34

very right For the purposes of, there's a

18:36

huge amount of power and cinematic sort of

18:38

them energy about about a boot on this.

18:40

it's of a key rare in there and

18:42

all kinds of things, but it's kind of.

18:44

and it's It's a bit me flaming around,

18:46

not some groups and knowing what I'm doing,

18:48

but. I. Kind of compare it

18:50

to so when when a punk band as

18:52

if is album that the i only a

18:54

four chords but you can brighten Two sons

18:56

were full code Simone I'm it's a do

18:59

that something you look back on a with

19:01

some some sort of pride. Not

19:03

like have an awful. Know. How To

19:05

I Like We were released at last year to

19:07

remit of I'm Ready for Work. And

19:09

it's a weird experience. you're reading one page

19:11

kind of going us real of were selected

19:13

right. As good as that matter of it's

19:16

have another of you go well that's no

19:18

breaks up a i'm Andy Reid the next

19:20

scene and he got as an amazing seats

19:22

so it kind of. It. Slipped back

19:24

and forth between them but so he seems to

19:26

the meat and of being a bit in or

19:28

what I was able to accomplish at that point

19:31

in a meal so wanted to go in and

19:33

agitated times as well. How

19:35

did you find? sort of the

19:37

process of. Taking your

19:39

words and then working with an artist.

19:42

To. Sort of. Mean other than

19:44

writing them a thing of it is one thing

19:47

and the news or a handed over. I'm. Was

19:49

it a long process to sort of. Learn

19:52

how to build those pages visually when you are

19:54

doing the one doing the are. now

19:57

i'm a novice one thing i've always

19:59

been very good at, I

20:01

think, is writing visuals and writing

20:03

with a visual sense. I

20:05

write full script and I think

20:08

from word one, I just kind of, it's quite, I

20:10

can't draw, but I

20:13

can see how it's going to look. I

20:16

mean, very often, you know, you work with, you

20:18

hand your script over and one artist will take what

20:20

you've written. You can be

20:22

very exact in your instructions and they can come up

20:25

with something completely different. And as long as the narrative

20:28

point is hit, then I, as long as it

20:30

looks good, I don't care. You

20:33

know what I mean? It's like, but no, I think

20:35

I've always written visually. I'm not, I can't,

20:38

I struggle a bit with Marvel style, which

20:40

is just purely, you know, writing

20:43

the plot beats. I

20:45

think I can see sequences and I

20:47

can see sort of, you know, interactions.

20:51

And so I'm trying to describe that to the artist. And so I like

20:53

to think, well, I've been told by quite a few of you, artists

20:56

in the past, and I think my scripts

20:58

are quite easy

21:00

to work with in that regard. I

21:04

mean, sometimes I did a book with

21:06

Walt Simonson a few years

21:08

ago for DC and I was at

21:10

a convention with him and I asked him to sign my

21:12

copy. And when it came

21:14

back, he'd written next time, pal,

21:16

a more challenging script, please, which

21:18

was, I think, I think

21:20

he was being sarcastic. He's

21:23

like the nicest man I've ever met. I

21:26

think I've met quite a lot. That's,

21:31

I mean, good for it. Good for you. So

21:35

do you, I'm guessing that means

21:37

that you are, you're pacing out the pages

21:39

and like how many panels and things

21:41

like that, but leaving it up

21:43

to the artist largely or are you more specific?

21:45

No, I'm very exact, but I kind of, it

21:48

depends on who you're working with, but I don't

21:50

mind at all if

21:52

you're working with someone good, who's a really

21:54

good visual storyteller. If they want to add

21:57

panels, remove panels, you know, fine,

21:59

because I know that. they'll tell the story but

22:01

I think the problem you get is sometimes

22:05

you don't know who you're working with and

22:07

you hand your script over there and

22:09

when they reinterpret it and perhaps they

22:11

might not be the strongest visual storyteller

22:14

and their choices might not be

22:16

contrary to what you had in mind and

22:18

that's when a comic struggles. But

22:21

I mean I think this is you know if you're working with

22:23

people you've known you've worked with a bunch of times in the

22:25

past and you hand them a script

22:27

and they go I might try something different. I've

22:30

just done this Judge Dred story with Henry Flint

22:32

who's a phenomenal artist and you

22:35

know unfortunately the American market doesn't really know a lot of

22:37

Henry's work but he is genuinely I think one of the

22:40

major talent in the industry and

22:42

Henry's we've worked together a bunch and Henry said look I

22:44

might try something different with this and add a lot of

22:46

panels and stuff I'd let you go for it because I

22:48

know it's all gonna sing you know

22:50

when he does it because you know we've

22:52

got that trust but a lot of

22:54

the times when you work for publishers

22:57

like Marvel and DC and you're not aware

22:59

of who's gonna be drawing the

23:01

script and so it's

23:03

always a little bit of an adventure with what comes

23:05

back and sometimes a

23:09

good adventure and sometimes not so good adventure. So

23:12

what's sort of the next step

23:15

class work comes out they steal

23:18

Trevor Harrison even with travel foreman which is

23:20

not a bad consolation prize. Where

23:23

do you go from there? I mean we're talking about

23:25

we have an internet now but social media is not

23:27

until later like you what

23:30

do you decide what do you want to do what's your goal

23:32

at that point and how do you get there? I

23:35

didn't really I didn't really know if I

23:37

could do it for a living I thought I'd done it

23:39

once and it's just like well you

23:41

know I'll keep on keep

23:43

my awe in and because I wanted to do more of

23:46

it. And then

23:48

2000 AD asked me to pitch for them and

23:50

I did and I started

23:53

writing for 2000 AD and I wrote a

23:55

story called The Silent which

23:57

is you know classic second

23:59

album. syndrome of just me

24:01

going, oh, okay, I did it once, I can do

24:04

it again and then just not really know where I'm

24:06

going. But fortunately, 2000 East stuck with me. And

24:09

beyond that, because that's not the best,

24:11

I wouldn't recommend that one. But

24:14

then at the same time, there was learning

24:16

pains where, you

24:19

know, your marble basically said,

24:21

you know, what do you want to write for us? And

24:23

I said, well, I want to do a Captain Britain. I

24:25

think I'm remembering this right. I want to do a I'd

24:28

like to do a Captain Britain miniseries. I went, yeah, fine.

24:30

And then I kind of went through, I don't

24:33

know, live five, maybe more iterations

24:35

of a plot breakdown of this thing.

24:37

I mean, eventually, Marvel

24:40

come back and kind of go, I don't think

24:42

this is working, you know, and so that was

24:44

really disappointing. Because I thought, well, this

24:46

was my inward Marvel. And I think

24:48

that around about the same time, I think DC that Dan Didio

24:50

said, What do you want to do? And I want to do

24:53

a Superman, a Superman

24:55

book. And I think that roughly the same

24:57

thing happened. So I was kind of hitting my head a

25:00

little bit and kind of wondering why, because it's

25:02

like, I think it's that story structure thing I

25:04

was talking about earlier, you get

25:06

opportunities and you're maybe you're not quite ready for it

25:08

yet. And so I'm

25:11

working for 2008. And then I think

25:14

I start if I remember right, I started doing Star

25:16

Wars books for Dark Horse. And

25:19

I did that for quite a while. And we're

25:22

some cool people, they're people like Dustin Weaver,

25:25

drew a few of the issues. And

25:28

I was a Star Wars fan growing up. And

25:31

you're kind of slowly kind of rolling along

25:33

and doing 2008 in the background. And then

25:36

eventually, I genuinely forget the timing, I kind of,

25:38

then I started doing some work for Marvel again. And I

25:41

worked for Marvel for a few years, I think. Axel

25:44

Alonso was, I

25:46

think, quite a proponent of me at

25:48

Marvel, from what I remember, and myself

25:51

and a friend, Lawrence Campbell, who have done a bunch

25:53

of books with all the years, we

25:55

pitched a Sunfire

25:58

miniseries, the X-Men. to

26:00

Axel Alonso. And I

26:02

remember Axel ringing us up and he goes, well, we love

26:04

the pitch, but we can't do it because he had his

26:07

legs cut off in the X-Men book last week. And

26:11

I think I sort of said, well, you know,

26:13

he can fly. And then we

26:15

realized the public are not necessarily ready

26:17

for a hovering, stumpy, some kind of

26:19

mini series. So then I

26:22

think Axel said something like, do you want to write

26:24

an X? Do you want to do a Wolverine book

26:26

together? I was just like, yeah, great. So yeah,

26:29

and then I was working for Marvel. Were

26:32

you very up to date or at least really familiar with

26:34

those guys? I know you'd grown up reading them, but as

26:36

you sort of were in your adult life and, you know,

26:38

were you keeping up with the characters? Were you? I

26:41

think at that point I was, yeah. I mean, I

26:43

think I largely knew what was going on. I wasn't

26:45

sort of, yeah, I was,

26:47

my comic buying was still probably quite

26:49

extensive at that point. And

26:52

then, yeah, I think, again,

26:54

I think I may have hit a bump again there.

26:58

I did a really good Punisher book

27:00

with Lawrence for Marvel, which again is

27:02

called Get Castle, and

27:04

which I still is one of

27:06

the better things I've done, I think that is a one-off

27:08

issue. But again, I couldn't seem

27:10

to sustain it. I get a regular gig there. And

27:12

I think it's a few years further on before

27:16

Marvel offered me, I

27:18

did a Ghostwriter series for Marvel and I did

27:21

a Daken series for Marvel at the same time.

27:24

So yeah. You're

27:29

kind of plugging away all the time and

27:31

you feel like with the major publishers at

27:33

various points the doors are open and various

27:35

points the doors are shut. And

27:37

you're never quite sure. You're kind of going, I'm still kind of

27:40

a same guy. But

27:43

yeah, that was fun for a few years.

27:46

It's really interesting because if, I

27:48

mean, I always sort of, that in

27:51

the late 90s, that sort of Marvel nights

27:53

period till Twitter, basically. So like say, 98

27:56

to 2007, eight. Was

27:59

this really, really interesting time because

28:02

Marvel was almost like rebuilding

28:04

themselves to a certain extent and

28:09

people got chances sometimes, it still happens now,

28:11

but got chances maybe before they were ready

28:13

a lot of times. I remember I made

28:15

my, everybody talks about comics,

28:17

I was like, I think I could write comics and I made

28:20

my little stint at it. The thing that always sort of scared

28:22

me was the idea that, and it didn't

28:24

happen, but somebody was just saying, do

28:26

you have a Superman story in you? And I just

28:28

go, no, that's

28:30

what I'd think, but you'd have to go yes and then show up

28:33

there at the thing. So

28:36

if somebody says to you, do you have a, you

28:38

said Captain Britain right away, did you have a Captain

28:40

Britain story in your head? I

28:43

had sort of outlined for what I wanted to

28:45

do. I didn't sort of have certain aspects of

28:48

the story sort of nailed down. And

28:50

the problem with that is again, I think a lot

28:52

of people make this mistake, which I certainly did. I've

28:54

got so much reverence for the, you know,

28:56

the Alan Moaland Davis, Captain Britain run is one of

28:58

my favorite comics of all time. And

29:01

so you kind of go, I want to do that. But then

29:03

you kind of go, well, it's a bit like going, well, I

29:05

love the Beatles. So I'd like to do an album that's like

29:07

the Beatles. And you kind of go, no, don't do that. That's

29:09

a really bad idea. You

29:12

know, you kind of like don't, don't follow some of the

29:14

greats. I mean, you kind of, I

29:17

think when you get older and you know yourself a

29:19

bit more and you know your

29:23

interests and you know what makes you passionate and

29:25

what you when you write what you're good at

29:27

is writing and other things are perhaps you may

29:29

not be as good at writing. And then you

29:32

can you pick your battles a bit more favorably.

29:34

But a lot of the time with working for

29:36

Marvel and DC, you know, people occasionally

29:39

go, well,

29:41

we want you to do this. And you, you know,

29:43

you don't really go, I want to do that. I

29:45

want to do, you know,

29:47

whatever. Sort of I want to

29:50

do an inhumans book or something like that. I'm like, well,

29:52

we don't want to do the inhumans. We give a slot

29:54

for you on Ghost

29:56

Rider or Daikin or something. You okay? You

30:00

said you do that thing where you kind of go,

30:02

I'd love to do that when you spend an entire weekend

30:04

freaking out trying to come up with. Where

30:08

you can absolutely I've got a story it's long

30:10

been my dream to write character X who I've

30:13

got no story for and you

30:15

build one and you do it very quickly. So

30:19

you I mean you pretty much been working for 2000

30:21

ad. That

30:23

whole time so I mean more

30:25

or less it now in in

30:28

the UK in much of the world

30:30

you know that's that's a

30:32

standard I look at it look it up

30:34

and it said you know I think 2000 ad

30:36

started in February of 1977 is like that's exactly

30:39

when I started to so it is this constant.

30:42

That is sort of been in the background and I

30:44

think for Americans you know I

30:46

know. I know about it

30:48

obviously I've read judge store just read stories

30:50

I've seen movies and things like that but

30:53

largely you know those creators would

30:55

come to us for me like via vertigo or

30:57

something like that. And so

30:59

I'm wondering is is 2000 ad

31:01

have a feeling like I made it or

31:04

is 2000 ad feel like okay I've made it

31:06

this far and now this is a stepping stone

31:08

to doing you know American comics or something like

31:10

that what was did you have a how

31:13

did you approach all that. Well I think

31:15

there was a period where that was seen

31:17

as the definite step in you did 2000

31:19

ad and then vertigo you know

31:21

plucked you and you went off and did hellblazer

31:23

for a while and then you're away you're in

31:25

you know you're in the American market. I

31:28

think by the time I came in to 2000 ad

31:31

I think that I

31:33

just missed that period I mean just like in

31:35

the years prior there was probably five years before

31:37

there was people like Mark Miller and Grant Morrison

31:39

were doing 2000 ad. I

31:41

think Garth Ennis was they

31:43

were all right in judge dread and

31:46

then there was people you

31:48

know like John

31:50

Smith and Pete Milligan and I mean

31:53

basically it was it

31:55

was like a university for people American

31:57

comics what you know some of the

31:59

biggest. names in American

32:01

comics. I

32:04

think that kind of largely came from a screeching

32:06

of largely about the time when I kind of

32:08

got to 2000 AD. I think the difference for

32:11

me with it was I grew up reading 2000

32:13

AD and I loved 2000 AD and I loved

32:16

American comics as well. So I never really saw it

32:18

as a stepping stone. I just went well, I'll do

32:21

both and really

32:23

enjoy doing both. I

32:26

think, you know, for people like

32:28

your Dave Gibbons and your Brian Bolins

32:30

and Alan Moore, you

32:32

know, basically large buckets of money were put in front

32:35

of them and so you come over and why would

32:37

you go back? You know, it's just you didn't make

32:39

a lot more money in the States and they did.

32:43

But I think sort of, you know, there were

32:45

people like in my year of coming into 2000

32:48

AD people like myself, Andy Diggle, Sisburia,

32:50

I'm just saying who else, Fraser, E Oden,

32:54

Jock, you know, Jock went on to, you

32:57

know, we all kind of were roughly starting

32:59

about the same time. Okay. Yeah. And we've

33:01

all gone off to do American

33:04

work, but I mean,

33:06

there's someone like Jock is interesting who plainly

33:08

just has a deep rooted love for Judge

33:11

Train, you know, but I

33:13

think the American market pays

33:15

a lot more and he's doing well there.

33:17

But it's, but even when I was like,

33:19

I was, I was doing a north floor

33:21

with DC about eight years ago, I was

33:23

doing, I was doing Suicide Squad with Jim

33:25

Lee and I still kept my, you know,

33:27

my hand in with 2000 AD because I

33:29

just enjoy it and I never, and I

33:32

also had a thing when I was a

33:34

kid, it always pissed me off when creators

33:36

would vanish. Do a story

33:40

every now and again, it's not gonna kill

33:42

you. Did it, you know, but so I

33:44

thought I'm gonna

33:46

do that and, and

33:49

because dread stories are sort of like six pages,

33:51

you know, you can, you can do a dread

33:53

story every now and again and it doesn't, it

33:55

doesn't kill you. So come, Come on,

33:58

forget money in American market, create. The

34:00

Comeback: The two thousand eighty. Will

34:03

you? Have.

34:05

I mean to how long I'm You're still doing journalism

34:07

during this time, and I'm curious. what does journalism mean

34:10

in this context? What are you writing for? What are

34:12

you reading about? I. Was doing. I

34:14

was a magazine journalist but i was under so

34:16

a trained and then I i just i freelanced

34:18

they are lower years another for video production company

34:20

for a few years the man actually helped. prompt,

34:23

Me into writing comics because I was

34:26

writing scripts for for visuals and as

34:28

a very boring subject matter occasionally. but

34:30

I kinda thought of. This

34:33

that started me write scripts. I saw those

34:35

under and not maybe i can write comic

34:37

strip and. The

34:39

journalism he was a was I was some editing

34:42

I was doing for about two years. I was

34:44

basically just going and just freelance have added in

34:46

on any magazine but would have me. And

34:49

and after a while that gets us

34:51

or soul crushing because you're just. You're.

34:53

The guy you comes in and as a week

34:55

and you don't talk to people and you go

34:57

that the end of it comes to eat dinner

35:00

invested in any kind of wakes up as an

35:02

attack the i was like features with the a

35:04

big magazines like cheek to cheek he flew me

35:06

out to and. Ah,

35:09

As a couple of cool ones, they

35:12

flew me out to a Jackson, Mississippi

35:14

to in to be Reggie Bush, the

35:16

American Football at the the New Orleans

35:18

Saints and. Training camp. It's

35:20

hotter than the face of a sudden

35:22

and I've flown all I did Jackson,

35:24

Mississippi and then Reggie Bush for seems

35:27

to be interviewed by us. I remember

35:29

that I was good and I know

35:31

anything about American Football. Yeah.

35:33

I'm done a big loss like up

35:35

getting on with under com have been

35:37

seventy us for both them some and

35:39

always helping her remains or but I'm

35:41

and another twenty weeks leading up to

35:44

cover the Nfl draft and rid of

35:46

City Music Hall in New York City.

35:48

That's great but I'm a junior. the

35:50

majority of my journalism jobs when not

35:52

as exciting as last and I suicide

35:54

your hook being like like the British

35:56

title of the American Football. I

35:58

thought I'd probably not. They looked

36:00

around and like no one else knew anything

36:02

about it and I did. Sullivan's you have

36:04

a new of can cover the draft of

36:06

like You have Said Am but I'm integrating

36:09

my mike I'm gonna get a bunch of

36:11

music journalism and yeah I've interviewed all kinds

36:13

of people in musicians and I i in

36:15

to be Taylor Swift or took the Taylor

36:17

Swift for both and when she's just start

36:19

in I am. So I have

36:22

that kind of career going on. but he was

36:24

chest. But the. Comics that was

36:26

getting more more more. Nine One reg been

36:28

on a side one regular. Gig.

36:30

In my journalism side of things and that

36:33

magazine shut down. And

36:35

just got a panic alone. I started pitching

36:37

a lot comic gigs and suddenly I have

36:39

time to invest in my Com Extreme. It's

36:41

a never really had before and close to

36:43

this isn't the more you pitch the move

36:45

the mortgage and suddenly I was doing more com

36:47

equipment. I was just. As

36:50

with his talking about working in magazines and I

36:52

thought i think it is named. One.

36:54

Of the only indices that's less stable

36:57

and comics a move into the last

36:59

part of that decade. Choose

37:02

your to is you know destructive career path

37:04

you can i be good and proper outer

37:06

after a puppy and yeah it's got it's

37:08

got a sort of friends were still in

37:10

the journalism industrialized I saw one of them

37:12

a couple of weeks ago and then we

37:14

with and we were talking about the you

37:16

tell me the the magazine shutting down i'm

37:18

still can him but telling him with the

37:20

com itself so the sure in than say

37:22

yes it's a it's fun times. While

37:25

that paper. On

37:27

sweet. Silva. You sort of

37:29

said you. Tuna. You did a comic script as a

37:31

lark. I mean was that year. Was.

37:34

That your goal to to make comics or

37:36

was it a larger want to tell stories

37:38

you know and then you know. Comics.

37:40

As your vessel you know have to this point

37:42

the know that to been some sort of follows

37:44

that to a certain step and like is that

37:46

what you wanted to do with that your your

37:48

your dream I guess. Non. And and

37:50

like a such as I mean earlier on

37:52

a I generally mean I didn't know it

37:54

was possible to do it so isolated. I'll.

37:57

Do one. and i cannot always loved

37:59

comics or I don't recall having a great

38:01

plan to do it for

38:03

a living. And I didn't even know if I was capable of doing

38:05

it for a living. I

38:09

sort of because I didn't know if I had a number

38:12

of stories in me. And

38:15

it's only when you start doing it for

38:18

a living and you realize, you know, necessity

38:20

actually pushes, can

38:22

push amazing things out of you because

38:25

you start doing it. And, for instance, you know,

38:27

if you've got deadlines, you can go, you can

38:29

sit down on a computer and go, I got

38:31

nothing today. I've got nothing. And then

38:34

lo and behold, you can have a really good story by the

38:36

end of the day. And it's because you sat

38:38

there on the computer and you actually made it happen. And

38:42

I don't think before

38:45

I started in, you know, in this business, sort

38:47

of when I had my first comic published, I

38:50

if you told me that I would I've written all

38:52

the things I've written, I would not believe you because

38:57

it's it's kind of it's it's been in

38:59

a kind of unexpected. I mean,

39:01

I very sort of if I bite my arm off

39:03

to sort of if you went, you're going to have

39:05

written for Marvel, D.C., 2008, you're going to have written

39:08

all these things. I wouldn't believe

39:10

it at all because I. You

39:14

know, I wasn't that sort of like hungry guy going,

39:16

this is what I'm going to do, because I just

39:18

really didn't think it was possible to do it. What

39:23

do you do when you're you have a

39:25

deadline, you've got, you know, a keyboard in front of you,

39:27

you need to have a story for something like where do

39:29

you start? You

39:33

just start is and that's the hardest thing, I think

39:36

you've just got to sit there and just force

39:39

it into being. And I think what you do

39:41

is like, again, I go back to what I

39:43

said earlier about basic story structure, you kind of

39:45

go, right, what's the story about who's

39:49

our lead, what do they want, what's

39:51

stopping them getting what they want? You

39:55

know, you build up a basic three act structure

39:57

and you can and then you can From

39:59

That. Why don't you kind of go right? Okay,

40:01

so that kind of boring or right now we need

40:04

a twist on it. So lousy, you going to take

40:06

an oldie so cheap dig down into character. is

40:09

was start thinking about your much as you main

40:11

characters. They'll suggest

40:13

he was weird. Story should go

40:15

and I'm big on seem. As

40:18

as relax don't seem. A.

40:20

bit of seems is is is a big.

40:24

That's. A big helping hand if you're stuck in

40:26

a story. Because I was think within. Their.

40:29

A billion where if you sit at a keyboard

40:31

right you can be all the road by the

40:33

billion options in front of you for any story

40:35

and and the and as a result you find

40:37

a sense of a newish and you don't go

40:40

anywhere. But. If.

40:42

You write What a sense of what this

40:44

stories about. What you're trying to say in

40:46

this story. And. Then you

40:48

realize you know again you come to

40:50

see you. You actually help yourself. I

40:53

choose that but as you get to sort of

40:55

the final act and you can ago price what

40:57

am I Target one. Well. Basically effect

40:59

to be too basic. Endings: You ever get

41:01

what they want, we have a happy ending.

41:03

Ah they don't get what they want. We

41:05

have a sad and I like us that

41:08

you can build old kinda levels of complexity

41:10

on top of they some nuance and subtext

41:12

and you know to set pieces you need

41:14

to. all these kinda things you will add

41:17

as building blocks. But. I do

41:19

think that it's most basic level you know

41:21

you kind of give. You can build a

41:23

story. And. And.

41:25

And if you do that you know I think

41:27

give yourself small targets. I forget who said it.

41:31

I think about that as many been them

41:33

can see mechanic that if she said that

41:35

I'm I think I read once. It's

41:38

like trying different a drive across America. At

41:41

night you will go Oh my God. I can never

41:43

do that. but if you don't I just need to get

41:45

of a next time. I'm on Sunday when I need to

41:47

get of a next term and then I'm day. And

41:50

eventually by the end of it you will

41:52

you will have completed Vienna Could a substantial

41:55

judy but it some. It's.

41:57

it's that's be read structure to have

41:59

to hold the creativity in place and

42:01

then the creativity happens within the structure. And

42:05

so is your process of sort of

42:07

creating story generally to think

42:10

of the sort of story bits, the beginning, middle

42:12

and end parts of those and then flesh it

42:14

out over? Do you start with, you know, ever

42:16

have, you know, like, oh, I'm here in conversation

42:18

between two characters in my head? Like

42:21

you have an outline always when you get going or? Yeah,

42:23

sometimes I mean, I have an outline I try

42:25

and do beats, you know, I do a beat

42:27

sheet basically before I go to script for the

42:30

most part sometimes. But any

42:32

rule you we talk about your you

42:35

can break it. I mean, basically, sometimes

42:37

if you've just got a great scene in your head, you

42:39

could just write the bloody scene there. And we'll

42:42

find a way to make that work somewhere. You

42:44

know, similarly, sometimes stories

42:46

can build out from visuals. And

42:48

you get there are all kinds

42:50

of things that can be sort of little sort

42:53

of seeds for what

42:55

you're going to do. But but

42:57

for the most part, I will kind of I'll write out

42:59

a plot. Then I'll

43:01

try and break it down into beats, sort of a beat

43:03

sheet, I'll give it a basic I want to be basic

43:05

act structure there. I do I want to I want to

43:07

midpoint. I want a

43:09

third act and a sense of, you know, what

43:12

our twist is going to be. And I

43:15

want all those in place. And so I've got a

43:17

sense of where you don't overload one

43:19

half of the story and all the good

43:21

bits happening one half of the story, you

43:23

know, it's like, but really,

43:25

it's mostly, I think

43:27

of a story, if you're struggling with a story,

43:29

you have forgotten, and this is really easy to

43:32

do, you have forgotten what your main character wants,

43:34

you can get so lost in the weeds of

43:36

all the other things you're trying to accomplish. And

43:38

it's like, keep it simple. It's like, go

43:41

right, what do they want? You know, and

43:43

very often I can get in the past

43:46

when I've gone wrong, I think you can you can

43:48

get to a point where you realize it's

43:50

tough to answer that question for certain characters. And then it's

43:53

like, well, you need to go back to the start and,

43:56

you know, go again. But

43:59

it is really, it's building. It's, you know, you

44:01

just you build this thing. And then

44:03

sort of the easy thing is the scripting, I

44:05

find, I mean, I find dialogue very easy.

44:09

And, and then

44:11

you can have fun. That's not the hard part.

44:13

The hard part has gone into the, you

44:17

know, the plot stuff beforehand, because I

44:19

can get you can, that that's where you've got to

44:21

get the sort of, and

44:23

you what you want is the really cool

44:25

moments that happen to be born out of

44:27

character, you don't want them to just arbitrarily

44:30

just be there, because they're a cool

44:32

moment. That's when things really

44:34

resonate. And I think when you kind

44:36

of hit, when you're hitting people in the

44:39

gut and the heart, basically, that's what you're going

44:41

for. And you've shown those seeds

44:43

in Act One, if they, if

44:45

they're happening in Act Three, and again, one of the best bits

44:47

of writing advice you'll ever hear is Billy Wilder. Billy

44:50

Wilder said, if it's a problem in your third act, the

44:52

actual problem isn't in your third act, it's in your first

44:54

act. So

44:57

I think that that's, that's the thing when

44:59

you're they're going, oh, this isn't working. And you're like

45:01

75% of the way in the script, you

45:03

need to go back to Act One and see how you

45:05

set those characters up on their journey. And something

45:08

isn't landing. And it's probably because of that.

45:12

So yeah, I mean, I'm a sucker for sort

45:14

of reading, there's a great book, Billy Wilder has

45:16

conversations with Cameron Crowe, where

45:18

Billy Wilder gives fantastic writing advice. I

45:21

mean, I've read a lot of those

45:23

kind of books over years. And you

45:25

you always you can, you can always

45:27

pull something new out of it, which

45:29

makes you okay, that's, that's great.

45:31

I missed that, you know, so we're all we're

45:33

always learning. It's

45:35

interesting. I mean, clearly, like you said, I didn't learn

45:37

this in creative writing class. But since then, you have,

45:40

you have self educated through through, you know, bring

45:42

stuff in and by doing the work and stuff

45:44

like that. Do you, do you

45:47

have like, peers, storytellers, you know, other

45:49

comic book writers or artists, whoever they

45:51

talk about this stuff with? We

45:54

go online, there's a few of us when we

45:56

get together conventions, there's people like Andy Dibble, I

45:58

think he's, you know, and and he's a

46:00

bit of a buff from this kind of stuff. And

46:02

I've talked with people like Alex Pacnaertl,

46:06

we were talking about Dan

46:09

Harmon's story, circle structure and things like this.

46:11

You can get quite nerdy about it with

46:13

certain people in the industry because we all

46:15

lap this stuff up. We're like, num, num,

46:17

num, num, num. It's a bit like when

46:19

artists get together and start talking about pens

46:22

together. And we kind of go, oh no,

46:24

it's a pen conversation. Well, it's

46:26

like get a couple of writers together and

46:28

start talking about story structure and different

46:30

tricks and we'll disappear into a corner

46:33

and lose ourselves. So yeah, it's, but

46:36

it's the tricks of the trade, right? And

46:38

it's like, it's like when you see a

46:40

TV show or a film or something and

46:42

it's a really amazing bit of writing. And

46:48

you've, I love moments like, what a weird example

46:50

is, you know the Disney film Tangled? Have you

46:52

ever seen Tangled? I have. That's

46:55

a great script. I mean, at the end,

46:58

when, what's his

47:00

name? Flynn Rider, when he cuts her hair

47:02

to kind of, so he'll die to spoilers

47:04

too, but to free her from

47:06

the curse. I actually gasped

47:08

and it wasn't just like, I love it

47:11

was a gasp of admiration, pure admiration

47:13

for the structure

47:16

of that script and how that had been all

47:18

set up throughout, you know, and built. And

47:21

I think, you know, when you see a beautiful piece of

47:23

writing like that, that's actually, you

47:26

kind of, yeah, you

47:28

were always looking for things like that in, I

47:30

think writers were always, that's the type of stuff

47:32

we really admire when people sort of set it

47:34

up and here's the payoff. And

47:36

it's like, it's like a set of other good

47:38

jokes. You know what I mean? It's all about

47:40

the cadence built, built, built, built, and boom, there's

47:42

the payoff. It's one of

47:45

the payoffs of being a storyteller is that you

47:47

can appreciate how good some others are when

47:49

you sort of go through that and you, you, then,

47:52

you know, other, you know, somebody is going, why is he

47:54

talking about Tangled? And I'm like, no, no, that was excellent

47:56

the way they structured that. That was perfect. No,

47:58

it's like, I, you know, I don't think you

48:01

shut yourself off like for you know, there's good writers

48:03

out there and working in all kinds of different fields

48:05

You know and it's just them. Yeah But

48:08

similarly like you were saying earlier about Jeff Johns It's

48:10

like I've watched a bunch of things lately and I

48:12

kind of go I'm five minutes in and I'll kind

48:14

of go I know this

48:17

is like, you know, oh, yeah, and

48:19

that's that's not great You kind of

48:21

feel like a jaded person sat in

48:23

the cinema going. Oh, okay. I

48:25

see I see what we're doing Yeah, you know what? I

48:27

mean? So that's not your fault. That's their fault Yeah,

48:30

I know I'm I am not allowed To

48:33

tell my wife what's about to happen and

48:35

I really have like oh he's the Stop

48:38

it. I was like, sorry, and if it's really bad, then

48:40

you can say exactly what the dialogue is going to be.

48:42

That's particularly terrible

48:48

Never a good thing mostly back in trailers

48:50

though. It's like Says

48:53

the line. Let's finish this you're gonna go.

48:55

I am done. I'm not yeah So

49:00

you You're

49:03

working for 2008 the

49:05

you're doing dread. Those are short stories Which

49:09

to me tends to be I know it's I know

49:11

I almost as I'm asking it because they're sort of

49:13

like stories of stories of Story but

49:15

you know doing a series of short stories

49:17

doing a couple of comic books and then

49:19

doing a sort of longer Like a vertigo

49:22

series, you know, whether it's six

49:24

issues or 24 issues Do

49:27

you approach those largely the same or did you

49:29

have to sort of work out how to how

49:31

to approach those things? I mean

49:33

the structural stuff is the same but it's I

49:35

mean, I think with two thousand stories because there's

49:38

six pages Judge dread

49:40

stories you in episodes you can have like

49:42

an I've just done a recent annoying part

49:45

But every episode is about six pages, but

49:48

then every episode is split

49:50

yourself up into At

49:53

least like it's little storytelling sprint I

49:55

always think I always think writers are right

49:57

is a like athlete some writers are really good at like

50:00

they could be sort of marathon runners, and some

50:02

of them just 60 meter tight

50:04

sprints. And writing

50:06

dread is a bit like that. So you go

50:08

like the first two pages will be a set

50:10

up. Pages three and four will be, you know,

50:14

your main character trying to get what he wants

50:16

and the story obstacles, there's a twist. And then

50:18

all you've got time for then is a cliffhanger

50:20

and you're out, basically. And so it's

50:23

a really turbo charged,

50:25

effective way of writing

50:28

stories. And

50:30

you can have a huge amount of fun in that. And I

50:32

love doing it. I think, 2000D

50:35

writers, it's often been said, you learn the

50:38

bare bones of, there's no time to mess

50:41

around with stories. Story has to be tight

50:43

in these little tales. So when

50:45

you go then to the American market, you get 20

50:47

pages or 22 pages on a monthly comment. You have

50:49

all, you feel like you have tons of room to

50:51

play. And a

50:54

lot of people find that enormously freeing.

50:56

And I've talked about that. It

50:59

can also be, I found you can be about

51:01

midway through writing a 20 page comic, a 22

51:03

page comic, and you can kind of feel like

51:05

you've got a little bit, maybe this is me, but

51:07

overthinking it, but you can feel like you're putting too much

51:09

fat in the bones, you know, and you could do it,

51:13

you know, you're being a bit sort of, you

51:16

suddenly you're putting in double page spreads and stuff, do you

51:19

know what I mean? And sort of like- I'm totally, I

51:21

mean, if you can do five, six pages or something like

51:23

that, then you've learned how to cut out all the unimportant

51:25

things. So then when you have more room, it's

51:28

like, well, none of this is important. And that totally makes sense.

51:30

But it's like this most recent dread I just did, without

51:32

any spoilers, it's called a better world and it's gonna

51:35

be collected next year. I think it's

51:37

a beautiful piece of work. And I co-wrote it

51:39

with Arthur Wyatt and Henry Flint drew it. So

51:42

we, yeah, amazing use of a double page

51:44

spread in that where basically we had, but

51:48

prior to that, we did a really tight

51:50

sort of 24 panel grid of

51:52

a build of tension. You know, it was just

51:54

like a claustrophobic tension, build, build, build, build, build,

51:56

build, build. I mean, you turn the page and

51:58

then you get the- page spread of

52:00

a really big plot beat in the

52:03

story. And that's

52:05

when you're using the kind of the armory of

52:07

comics, I think, in a really interesting

52:09

way. And then, but very often,

52:12

as we both know, there's way too many American

52:14

comics where there was a period,

52:16

I remember thinking, there's like five double page spreads in

52:19

this thing, and it's only 22 pages. And most

52:23

of them were of the help punching someone, you know, it's

52:25

like, okay, fine. But yeah, so

52:29

it's kind of, it's good, it's a

52:32

different kind of pacing. But it's like when you get

52:34

people like, it's Graham Morrison, who

52:36

can absolutely do

52:38

both and has done, you know, with,

52:41

you know, with great sort of a with

52:43

great skill and use them both. So yeah,

52:45

it's, but you do, I think

52:49

that I would encourage anyone starting out try

52:51

writing six page stories or five page stories

52:53

that'll battle back as some

52:55

discipline into you. Yeah,

52:57

I, for years when

52:59

I was in I was in the hunt to sort

53:02

of do this, but we were also doing this stuff

53:04

full time. I did a show with Andy Schmidt,

53:06

who was the Marvel editor for a while, he runs

53:08

a school, we did 50 episodes and

53:10

make comics. And one of the things that kept coming up

53:12

was so many people

53:14

are like, I have this idea for a graphic

53:17

novel or a series of whatever. And it

53:19

was like, do five pages. Yeah, try that.

53:21

First of all, good luck finding an artist

53:23

to do, you know, but do

53:25

five pages and then you really cut it down. I

53:27

remember the first time I think

53:30

I saw a couple of Tom King comics, you know, and

53:32

he did some of those vertigo, yeah, anthologies,

53:35

and just did he did one fantastic story

53:37

with Tom Fowler. And I was like, Oh,

53:39

you can do that as you can. You're

53:41

good. Yeah, it's always impressive. No,

53:44

it's, and I think it's kind of, yeah,

53:46

that's a really, really good learning point. But

53:48

it's also even I just

53:50

and today I got pages through I'm

53:52

doing a dread with RM Gera who

53:55

did sculpt most famously and and

53:58

gear and I were talking this morning. these pages have

54:00

turned up my inbox. And I'm

54:02

just looking at this Judge Dred's story, which

54:04

is, we did a seven page of this

54:06

particular story. And I'm going, I

54:10

just asked him to do too much on

54:12

that page. And the reason for that is

54:14

because it's seven pages. You know, it's just

54:16

like it's, so you still, you've

54:18

got to learn the page. I'm

54:20

a bugger for kind of like cramming into, I

54:23

did a book with Mike McNauler about two years ago.

54:26

And the first issue, I sent in the plot breakdown

54:28

and Mike came back and went, well, if you think

54:30

you can do all this in one issue. And I

54:32

was thinking, yeah, of course I can. But it's because

54:34

I'm used to telling stories in six

54:37

pages. But

54:40

sometimes that teaches

54:42

you bad habits. I think sometimes when you go

54:44

into the American market, because you can all the

54:46

compress, you know, you could. Well, I

54:48

chuckled because you said Mike McNauler. And I was like,

54:50

oh, that's not, you're

54:53

lucky you get four panels on a

54:55

Mike McNauler page. Yeah, I think Mike

54:58

read my plot breakdown and kind

55:00

of was thinking, oh, this guy's, you know, gonna

55:02

cram too much in this. But I think we

55:04

totally made it work and it breathed. But

55:08

it's the pacing thing. It's a different kind of pacing.

55:11

And I think we go through different eras with comics.

55:13

You know, there was that sort of,

55:17

coming off the authority and things like that.

55:20

The war and LSD compressed period. Yeah, yeah.

55:23

And then we suddenly, you fast forward and

55:26

suddenly you've got, to

55:28

today, you've got people like James Tinian and

55:30

Tom King doing, you know, seem

55:32

to have gone far away from that, basically. And

55:35

it's kind of, it's interesting, just how what comes

55:37

through in Vogue, what styles. Yeah,

55:40

it's been really interesting to watch sort of

55:42

over the last, since I've been, I mean,

55:44

I've been doing this seriously

55:46

since about 2005. And

55:48

I just feel like I'm getting my hand around it. My

55:50

head around sort of the art form now and figuring out

55:52

the things I really appreciate, but you can see those sort

55:54

of trends. But Trends

55:57

give it less than there. It Sounds, it

55:59

sounds, makes. The sillier than it is but it's

56:01

more just like those movements see how people who

56:03

came up reading more analysis and they you know

56:05

what you will try to sort of ape that

56:07

in turn ins his own thing and then you

56:09

know those people try to keep. Alan.

56:11

Moore but didn't quite work. And it's just like. Music

56:14

in a gym. You know everybody heard The

56:16

Beatles and then you end up getting Black

56:18

Sabbath. I would. just it's it's it's a

56:20

direct line. but that's what happened. Aren't even

56:22

that? were Faith No More? Who knows what?

56:24

Many? or yes. Yes. You.

56:26

Get Mister Bungle Switch! Get. A

56:29

nice nice nice night. My six

56:31

segue. Yes. I'm

56:34

at as as we're we're we're get along

56:36

here but I do. But I ask you

56:38

is as person who has been very connected

56:41

with Judge Read for very long time. I'm.

56:44

What? What? Is it? About

56:46

judged read that has kept him. So.

56:49

Relevance or both in comics,

56:51

but in British comics whereas.

56:54

You. Know in the Us I don't know what is this,

56:56

what the for matter or whatever like. Those.

56:59

Comics never really became a huge thing

57:01

here, but is the something's very British

57:03

about them or is it just. In

57:05

of the market that the remnants. But what is

57:07

it about. What? Is it's great

57:10

about read to you. As

57:12

all was very you know I i i go

57:14

around for a while looking for my question and

57:16

then you're like was really. Pleased

57:18

with the Eiger in the the how we would Yeah,

57:20

so sorry I can be of a half an hour

57:23

answering that will. Look.

57:25

I'm it. System is abysmal. lightning in the bottle

57:27

of thing. what you said she says as he

57:30

starts at about seventy seven and it's just so

57:32

happens that they have. A

57:34

talent pool which is extraordinary. They have

57:36

Brian Bolland, the map with Mana may

57:38

have taken on the Illinois. They have

57:40

Dave Gibbons and and and that's like

57:42

a weekly basis of these guys on

57:44

a revolving that Brandon Mccarthy. And

57:49

so. You. Have that

57:51

and you also have. Like.

57:54

some either one of the one of us

57:56

what to the greatest writers comics as as

57:58

had which is some John Wagner and

58:00

Pat Mills, and Alan

58:02

Grant, three. So

58:05

there's an amazing talent pool. And,

58:08

but Dread is also this weird

58:10

mix of, it's

58:13

featured, it's basically

58:16

dystopian, sort of cautionary sci-fi, but

58:18

it's got a really great sense

58:20

of humor, but it's wild and

58:22

over the top at times. And

58:26

somehow, eventually it settles

58:28

down because John Wagner is the

58:30

creator. And John Wagner's history is

58:33

very interesting because he's an American who, at

58:36

some point his family moved to Scotland and he

58:38

grew up in Scotland. So Dread is this weird

58:40

kind of- Cause Dread's American,

58:42

or Mega City One is America.

58:45

It's Mega City One is the

58:47

Eastern seaboard of America

58:49

after a nuclear apocalypse. And

58:52

the judges are basically what

58:55

holds, what's left of humanity together.

58:59

And they're fascists. They are

59:01

authoritarian regime and they are,

59:04

and this is one of the, I think one of

59:06

the major reasons why it survived for so long and

59:08

why it's such an interesting strip is

59:11

one week, Dread is the bad guy. And

59:14

one week, Dread is the good guy. And somehow

59:17

they came

59:19

up with this world where just pretty much

59:22

all stories are possible. It's an endless story

59:24

engine. You wanna do a sort

59:27

of a Kira like big sort of sci-fi action

59:29

thing, you can do that. You wanna do a

59:32

satirical strip, you can do that. You

59:34

can do a tragic, you can

59:36

do anything week to week basically in

59:38

Dread. I

59:41

think the large part of why it's sustained is

59:44

because John Wagner for the most, he was right

59:46

near the start, he co-created it and he's

59:48

still occasionally writing it, 47 years old, at

59:51

47 years on. And

59:54

he's just one of the most

59:57

amazing writers comics has ever had.

59:59

And I would sort of... If American audiences don't

1:00:01

know his work, I would suggest they go

1:00:03

and pick up something like Judge Dred Case

1:00:05

False 5, I think it is. Let me

1:00:07

double check that on my shelf. So

1:00:10

that's the one. It's got the dark

1:00:12

judges, which is drawn by

1:00:14

Brian Boland. And then after

1:00:16

that, you get the apocalypse war, which

1:00:19

is drawn by Calis Esquiero, which is this

1:00:21

amazing long form. I

1:00:24

forget how many parts it is. I'm going to say 30, which

1:00:26

is wrong. Which

1:00:28

is just basically a big nuclear war

1:00:30

between the Soviets

1:00:32

and the American judges. And

1:00:40

sometimes it's just a very

1:00:42

noirish sometimes. Dred's internal monologue

1:00:44

is quite Raymond Chandler-esque at

1:00:46

times. It can

1:00:48

be a police procedural. It can be all these things.

1:00:52

I think why it hasn't worked so much in the

1:00:54

American market is because I mean,

1:00:57

2000-D didn't get the comic shops in

1:00:59

America for so long. And even if they did,

1:01:01

they were bundled together in sort of weekly packages,

1:01:03

which the American market just didn't

1:01:05

understand. And

1:01:08

then- This thing is part of it too. And when

1:01:10

I look at it and you just said, you know,

1:01:12

like I could search for a graphic

1:01:14

novel of it, and I know about different writers, but

1:01:16

there's so much. It's just, you don't even, it's

1:01:19

difficult to figure out where to sort of

1:01:21

start. And I know that it kind of

1:01:23

doesn't matter, but American comics are sort of

1:01:25

based on that principle to a certain extent.

1:01:28

Yeah. And another thing about

1:01:30

it is like they never rebooted it. So it's

1:01:32

still in continuity. I mean, Dred is aging- That's

1:01:35

what I'm going to ask you. Is there one continuity?

1:01:38

Yeah. It's just, they never- so Dred

1:01:40

is- God knows.

1:01:42

Dred must be about 70 years old, something like that.

1:01:46

As has been explained to me by the editor when I

1:01:48

questioned this at one point, the

1:01:50

technology that's like, he's got so many cyberoptics sort

1:01:53

of joints and stuff like that, but he can

1:01:55

move like a younger man, basically. But

1:01:58

that's a kind of an amazing thing. some

1:02:00

point they're gonna have

1:02:02

to come up with a reasoning behind that.

1:02:05

But I did a

1:02:07

graphic novel a few years ago with Henry

1:02:09

Flint called The Small House which

1:02:12

got a fair bit of a claim and I

1:02:15

think if people just want to

1:02:17

pick up one dread story, I did another one

1:02:19

called Titan as well which was like that was

1:02:21

effectively a bit like aliens dread

1:02:24

and a marine force go

1:02:27

off into space because there's a

1:02:30

prison world where the judges

1:02:32

send all the judges would have done bad

1:02:35

and there's a breakout there so dread

1:02:37

goes into space to sort it out.

1:02:40

But yeah and those are self-contained stories you

1:02:42

can read in graphic novels so maybe people

1:02:44

if I'm gonna be allowed to plug my

1:02:46

own work then yeah people should look at

1:02:50

those. Absolutely acceptable at

1:02:53

this point. I

1:02:56

want to talk to you about Petrol Head and

1:02:59

as we sort of close up because you know that's sort of

1:03:01

the latest thing that has sort of been on my radar. I

1:03:05

had been noticing as I was sort of looking around

1:03:07

at the work you've done and I want

1:03:09

to say look maybe

1:03:13

Royal's Masters of War was kind of the first thing

1:03:15

that I was reading because I was a giant vertigo

1:03:17

head when that was all coming out and so very

1:03:19

on top of it. I think that was maybe the

1:03:22

first thing of yours that I read that I noticed

1:03:24

and then a little after that you have Unfollow. Unfortunately

1:03:27

you went down with vertigo you took them down

1:03:29

with you I don't know. I am the nail

1:03:31

of death in many companies. And then it's so

1:03:33

you know they're

1:03:39

very different and then you're

1:03:41

writing Roy of the Rovers which

1:03:43

as far as I can tell them tell me if

1:03:46

this is wrong this is a long-standing British comic you

1:03:48

know about a young footballer and you're just continuing the

1:03:50

tradition of that in the same way you are with

1:03:52

Fred. And then

1:03:54

I go to Petrol Head and I don't I'm

1:03:57

trying to look for a connective tissue for all.

1:04:00

of these things. I don't

1:04:03

mean this even as a bad thing, but something like, oh, okay,

1:04:05

I can sort of see what they're getting at all the time.

1:04:07

And then there's other things like, I just want to tell a

1:04:09

bunch of different kinds of stories. Yes. I think it's that. I

1:04:11

mean, it's kind of... Yeah. But

1:04:14

it goes back to what we were talking about with structure

1:04:17

and things like that, which is probably pulled half

1:04:19

of your listeners, but it's kind of... No way.

1:04:21

It is kind of... I think if you know how

1:04:24

to tell a story, you can go... I've written a

1:04:26

bunch of horror things the last few years. And

1:04:29

roughly the same time as I was writing The

1:04:31

Royal Royal, there's graphic novels, which were a series

1:04:33

of young adult graphic novels aimed

1:04:36

at the young adult market. But if

1:04:38

you know how stories work, I just think

1:04:40

you can flip genres. I've never really liked

1:04:43

this thing of like, you're that guy. You know

1:04:45

what I mean? I remember sort of... I think

1:04:49

Dan Didio, when I moved to DC one point, went, oh,

1:04:51

you have a sci-fi guy. And I went, oh, sometimes. I

1:04:53

mean, I can do other stuff as well.

1:04:56

And it's...

1:04:58

So, Petrolhead actually came...

1:05:02

The approach came out of... I was writing for

1:05:04

a young adult audience with Roya Verroves, and it

1:05:06

was quite freeing because you strip

1:05:08

out a lot of the kind

1:05:11

of... The more

1:05:13

kind of sort

1:05:15

of adult sort of trappings

1:05:17

of storytelling, like internal captions

1:05:19

and monologues. And what

1:05:21

you're trying to do, as I found with

1:05:23

Roya Verroves, was tell a very direct story

1:05:25

that would appeal to a younger audience. And

1:05:29

as a result, I thought I wrote some

1:05:31

really, really good character stuff in there. And

1:05:33

I kind of thought, well, I'd

1:05:35

like to take that approach into a mainstream

1:05:38

American market. And

1:05:42

I've got to know Paipa, who was the designer on

1:05:44

2000 AD. And

1:05:46

Paipa was doing these amazing posters

1:05:49

of futuristic racing cars and stuff. And

1:05:52

I'm not really into the cars, funny

1:05:54

enough. If anyone's read Petrolhead, I've done

1:05:57

a comic about futuristic racing cars. But it was just...

1:05:59

I like it. I really like Pye's work. I

1:06:01

said, look, you should do a comic with

1:06:04

these. They're just, this is nearly

1:06:06

a world already. You've done a lot of it.

1:06:09

It had a tone to it, had an optimism

1:06:11

and a fun about it. You know what I mean?

1:06:13

It felt bright. And it felt like the

1:06:16

time was right because we were in the middle of COVID at that

1:06:18

point. I think it was like, I

1:06:20

had enough of miserable comics. So we

1:06:22

have some fun, bright, fast-paced comics

1:06:24

that have got a bit of life

1:06:27

to them. It's

1:06:29

interesting you describe it that way. You're still kind

1:06:31

of a post-apocalyptic nightmare world. Yeah, I can't get

1:06:33

through that. It's just a bit of fun. I'm

1:06:36

sorry. From my sort of, yeah,

1:06:39

essentially a lot. I can see what

1:06:41

you're saying and it's there. There's a context.

1:06:44

We like to have our cake and eat it occasionally.

1:06:46

Yes. But it's,

1:06:48

yeah, so we

1:06:50

started sort of building petrolhead together

1:06:52

and building a world and writing

1:06:55

the characters. And

1:06:57

again, we both come from a 2000 AD, but

1:06:59

it was very much kind of trying to go, well,

1:07:02

we want this to appeal to an American audience. We

1:07:04

want this to appeal to an image readership. So

1:07:07

we're not coming in, but we are

1:07:09

taking certain tonal things from our 2000, what

1:07:12

we love about 2000 AD as well. And

1:07:16

then trying to make it feel a little bit like

1:07:18

a, like a kind of Pixar movie on

1:07:20

the page at times, as well as

1:07:23

maybe it's a bit more anime in places. So

1:07:26

we're checking all this stuff we love, both of us

1:07:28

into a blender and kind of

1:07:30

petrolheads what's come out of it

1:07:32

really. And we've both, we've both

1:07:34

absolutely loved it. And

1:07:37

we're sort of, you know, we've

1:07:40

been sending each other little messages back and forth at times

1:07:42

going, reading the issues going,

1:07:45

this is really good, man. It's just like,

1:07:47

it's just too little. Yeah, you can tell that when

1:07:49

you get a page back, oh, this is it, we're

1:07:51

doing it. This is, you know, good. But

1:07:53

it's like, it's a character. Sometimes,

1:07:56

you know, characters come alive when you're writing them

1:07:59

and for petrolhead being. cast to the point

1:08:01

where you would throw in

1:08:03

like a character like David Bird, who

1:08:05

wasn't even

1:08:07

in the initial pitch, basically, but then

1:08:10

I got to the script point

1:08:12

and I was thinking, I've got an entire scene

1:08:14

with Petra alone in his garage living on his

1:08:16

own, and he has no one to

1:08:18

talk to, you know? So then, so that

1:08:21

sometimes through necessity you make up a

1:08:23

character, and that character then suddenly

1:08:25

becomes one of your favorite things in

1:08:28

the entire book, and that happens quite often, I find,

1:08:30

and that's a really lovely surprise. You kind of go,

1:08:32

no, I know, I've got all the building blocks and

1:08:34

I know exactly what this is, and

1:08:37

then you start writing it and a voice just pops

1:08:39

onto the page and you go, no, that's just, it's

1:08:41

a great character. Where

1:08:44

did, I mean, if you were to

1:08:46

describe this story, like, where did you start?

1:08:48

What is it you, like, we

1:08:50

should have this? Other

1:08:52

than, I guess you saw drawings of cool

1:08:54

future car? Yeah, and Pye was

1:08:56

drawing these, like, robots and stuff, this is

1:08:59

his, this is his bag, you know, robots

1:09:01

and futuristic racing cars is very much Pye's

1:09:03

thing. So I sort of came in

1:09:05

and I was kind of, I need

1:09:08

to build a story around this and

1:09:10

build characters around it, and

1:09:12

then it's just giving them a reason

1:09:14

to go on the run, is the

1:09:16

blatant cynical, you know, that's

1:09:18

your storytelling job, right? Someone's got to be

1:09:20

chasing them, and they've got to

1:09:22

be getting somewhere, and why? What

1:09:25

do they want? And why are we going to

1:09:27

be invested as readers, you know, to want them

1:09:29

to make it? So that's my

1:09:31

job then. But really, the

1:09:34

designs, I mean, a lot of it,

1:09:36

I was coming up with the characters, and I remember sort of the

1:09:38

moment we came up with the name Petrol Head, like,

1:09:40

you know, the type of, I said the direction

1:09:42

to Pye, which type of thing an artist will

1:09:44

hate you for, he goes, he needs to have

1:09:46

Petrol belching out of his head, basically, you know,

1:09:48

it's pretty basic. And

1:09:51

then we go back and forth, you know,

1:09:53

with the designs and sort of we, so

1:09:55

it's all, it's all sort

1:09:57

of, you know, it's for good or

1:10:00

ill. The entire book is entirely by an

1:10:02

eye and it's been a blast.

1:10:04

It's been a lot of work

1:10:06

as well. I mean because pilot, he draws

1:10:08

it, he colors it, he letters it, he

1:10:10

designs that book and it looks

1:10:13

glorious. You have a colorist. You

1:10:17

said he was a designer but did

1:10:19

he do sequential before this? He did

1:10:21

some sequential. He did a strip for

1:10:23

2008 called The Intestinones with

1:10:26

Arthur Wyatt and he did a

1:10:29

series of horror heavy metal

1:10:31

graphic novels in the UK for

1:10:33

an independent publisher. One

1:10:37

of the nice things about it was just

1:10:39

like the American market had no idea who

1:10:41

he was and then it hit and issue

1:10:45

one came out and quite understandably an awful lot of

1:10:47

people were going, who is this guy? Where did he

1:10:50

come from? I

1:10:52

really felt like I had missed something. I

1:10:54

thought because there's a lot of new artists,

1:10:57

new in quotes, they've been working for five or ten

1:10:59

years and I read a lot

1:11:01

of comics from people who are new at it

1:11:04

and so to see an artist that you've never

1:11:06

heard of come along and be sort of fully

1:11:08

formed in terms of being able to

1:11:10

design an amazing amount of characters and

1:11:13

a whole world and then be able

1:11:15

to translate that into sequential pages that

1:11:17

have motion and

1:11:20

narrative and it's a hell of a

1:11:22

thing. I mean the thing that I

1:11:25

knew he was good but as the pages were coming

1:11:27

in, again it's those little

1:11:29

sort of character interactions and the acting

1:11:31

performances from the characters was just kind

1:11:33

of like holy shit these really good.

1:11:35

I knew the book would look

1:11:38

amazing and I

1:11:41

knew the design of the world and the characters

1:11:44

would all be amazing but that's

1:11:46

when a comic sings I think is when you've

1:11:49

got an artist who I

1:11:52

can write. I can write the best dialogue I

1:11:54

can possibly write but it's in the hands of the artist

1:11:56

whether or not that's going to come across on the page

1:11:58

and it totally did. really

1:12:00

lovely. I mean, and

1:12:02

an extra look out because the colors are also spectacular

1:12:05

because a lot that can take down a

1:12:07

lot of books too and just is really

1:12:09

a complete package. I think it

1:12:12

feels like this is a world you could live in for a while in

1:12:15

a lot of different ways. How long

1:12:17

how long we planning on doing this

1:12:20

this story? Is it open ended or

1:12:22

how long ago? Issue five

1:12:24

comes out this week. I don't know when

1:12:26

when the podcast going online. Issue five is

1:12:28

in shops March the 13th,

1:12:31

something like that. And

1:12:33

that's the end of our first arc. And then

1:12:35

we're gonna have a break we're gonna we're planning

1:12:37

currently the thinking is to do like the hellboy

1:12:40

model where we'll, we'll come back to different miniseries,

1:12:42

maybe maybe one a year and keep it keep

1:12:44

the story rolling. Because we'd

1:12:47

love to, you know, do it as

1:12:49

a monthly ongoing, but it's we're

1:12:51

probably doing every aspect of the creative

1:12:53

process. It's it's just

1:12:55

kind of like it's not possible to do that. But

1:12:58

now we're, you know, we love it. And you

1:13:00

know, we've just we've, you know, we've just signed

1:13:02

with, you know, a deal with the film and

1:13:04

TV right. So we'll see what goes with it.

1:13:06

You know, we'll go what comes from that. But

1:13:08

it's, if

1:13:10

we can carry on doing more and more of it,

1:13:12

and then great, but it's like we've, the graphic

1:13:15

novel is going to be in June is going

1:13:17

to be like this beautiful collection. And hopefully

1:13:20

that sells enough and we can we can we can

1:13:22

warrant you know, keep doing more of it because yeah,

1:13:24

at the end of the day, it's

1:13:26

all about the market. Sure.

1:13:29

Well, I hope all that works out real well. And I'll do my

1:13:31

best part to keep going just for me. Yeah, for me. Rob, I

1:13:33

think I'm gonna let you go.

1:13:38

I could keep talking to you for

1:13:40

a while. There's lots of other things I have thoughts about.

1:13:42

But we both have lives we

1:13:44

got to get back to. And thank

1:13:46

you so much for taking the time. I know it's

1:13:49

a little later over there for you. So I appreciate

1:13:51

it. No, I appreciate it. Just thanks a lot. It's

1:13:53

always frightening when people are asking you about stuff you

1:13:55

did early in your career, because frankly, I've forgotten most

1:13:57

things I did four weeks ago, let alone early in

1:13:59

my life. in my career as sub-op. I

1:14:01

understand. I call the truth. I

1:14:05

am also a middle-aged man who doesn't

1:14:08

remember why he walked into a room

1:14:10

and that's totally fair. Indeed,

1:14:12

which is like when he comes to writing, I did an

1:14:14

interview for the 2000-day podcast the other

1:14:16

day and they were kind of going, well how many

1:14:18

episodes is this story you're on to talk to us

1:14:20

about Rob and I just blankly stared at the screen

1:14:22

going, I don't know. When am I supposed to know?

1:14:24

When he wrote the thing.

1:14:29

If you, Rob Williams, are spending all that time with

1:14:31

me, I say this every time but I could have

1:14:33

kept going. It's like, alright, we've got to get back

1:14:35

to our lives now. What

1:14:38

a great, thoughtful writer

1:14:41

with so much diversity

1:14:43

of story types. It's just all over the

1:14:46

place and in a great way.

1:14:49

I just thank you for spending the time with me. I hope

1:14:51

you enjoyed it as much as I did. Thanks

1:14:53

to the patrons of iFanboy, patreon.com/iFanboy.

1:14:57

This talksplode thing is a thing. It's continued to be

1:14:59

a thing for quite a while and I want to

1:15:01

thank folks for that. You can go to ifanboy.com to

1:15:04

listen to all the other shows that we've ever done.

1:15:06

Of course, there's our weekly pick of the week podcast

1:15:08

when we talk about the week comics. Thanks

1:15:11

for listening. I'll

1:15:29

see you

1:15:31

next week.