0:00

Hi,

0:07

I'm Chelsea Clinton, and this is in fact

0:10

a podcast about why public health matters

0:12

even when we're not in a pandemic. Today,

0:15

we're talking about substance abuse, disorders,

0:17

and addiction. When we think

0:19

about a public health crisis, we often

0:21

think about a contagious disease like COVID

0:23

nineteen. But substance use disorders

0:26

and addiction are another epidemic, yes,

0:28

an epidemic in our country right now.

0:31

This epidemic is fueled in part by

0:33

the over prescription of opioids, and

0:35

it's made worse by the stigma that has too

0:37

often kept us from talking about and

0:40

treating. This is what it is, a health

0:42

issue like any other. The

0:44

good news is, over the last few years,

0:46

the conversation around addiction in America has started

0:49

to change. More and more people

0:51

are speaking out about their own experiences,

0:53

including celebrities, and elected

0:56

leaders are taking on the issue in new ways

0:58

rooted in public health. All

1:00

of this is particularly urgent right now.

1:03

Overdoses and overdose deaths have risen

1:05

during the pandemic. According to the

1:07

Center for Disease Control, thirteen

1:10

percent of Americans say they've started or

1:12

increased substance use, including alcohol

1:15

in order to cope with the stress of COVID nineteen,

1:17

and for people in recovery from substant

1:20

use disorders, isolation has made it

1:22

harder to get the support they need. Today,

1:24

I'm talking with two people with unique perspectives

1:27

on these issues. We'll hear from Dak

1:29

Shepherd, an actor who is incredibly

1:31

candid and pointing about his own addiction and

1:33

recovery, including on his

1:35

own podcast, Armchair Expert. But

1:38

first I'm talking with Washington, d C Mayor

1:40

Muriel Bowser. D

1:43

C was once a place that I called home, and

1:45

it's so much more than our nation's capital. Nearly

1:48

a million people live in the metropolitan area,

1:50

and it's one of the most diverse cities in the United

1:53

States. And let me just say, it's

1:55

long pastime for d C statehood. That's

1:57

a topic deserving its own podcast,

2:00

but it's also one that matters for public health. To

2:02

just give one example particularly relevant

2:04

to today's topic, because DC

2:07

isn't in its own state. Years ago, Republicans

2:10

and Congress were able to block d C from using

2:12

its own non federal funding

2:14

for needle exchange programs. Thankfully

2:17

that ban was reversed, but it shouldn't have

2:19

been possible, and it wouldn't have been had

2:21

DC been a state. Leading

2:24

the city today is Mayor Muriel Bowser,

2:26

who has stayed focused on the very real challenges

2:28

posed by substance abuse disorders and addiction,

2:31

even while managing many other crises

2:33

of this last year. She's committed to improving

2:36

access to mental health services like Oxford

2:38

Houses, community based and run sober

2:40

living environments, and to Narcan, a

2:42

life saving antidote to opioid overdoses.

2:45

And as you're about to hear, that's just the

2:48

beginning. I was so happy to have

2:50

Mayor Bowser on the podcast and I started

2:52

our conversation by asking her what it's been like

2:54

to address substance use disorders in DC,

2:57

also navigating the COVID nineteen pandemic.

3:01

What does the opioid epidemic look like in

3:03

d C. Well, it doesn't

3:06

look like the national picture that

3:08

we have of the opioid epidemic.

3:11

In fact, people who are

3:13

suffering and dying from opioid

3:15

addiction in DC are usually

3:18

African American men in their

3:20

fifties, were older, and there

3:23

are folks that have been living

3:25

with substance addiction for

3:28

sometimes decades. And what

3:30

we see is these very potent

3:33

street mixtures of drugs that

3:35

are causing overdose and death in

3:37

our city. Were you aware of

3:40

the extent of the crisis when

3:42

you became mayor or

3:45

was this an issue you really had to confront

3:47

more head on once you took office. Absolutely,

3:50

it was an issue that we had to

3:52

confront when we saw these

3:55

very potent fentel mixes

3:58

that emerged seemed

4:00

to me almost overnight on the

4:02

streets, and we had been seeing

4:05

the kind of over prescribing

4:07

of aipiens in how

4:10

that also has mixed with the street

4:12

trade and the spencinal mixtures

4:15

that are killing people in our city.

4:17

In last year, during the pandemic,

4:20

we had a pretty significant number of people

4:22

who succumbed to these overdoses.

4:25

For so long, we've treated

4:27

addiction as a matter for the criminal

4:29

justice system, and yet

4:31

we really know the addiction is a public

4:34

and a patient health crisis. How

4:36

do you help shift the public's understanding

4:39

of what addiction is and also how they can

4:42

hopefully be part of helping support

4:44

people who might be struggling in their community.

4:47

I do think we've seen some

4:49

shifts in the way that we are

4:52

thinking about drug treatment

4:54

and the criminal justice system. Certainly

4:56

in d C. We have been on

4:59

a multi year strategy

5:01

of decriminalizing marijuana,

5:04

for example, and making sure

5:07

that at the same time though we're educating

5:10

young people about the dangers

5:12

related to overusing

5:15

marijuana. We also seen

5:18

more help and support for

5:20

people to get on medically assisted

5:23

drug treatment, which is changing

5:26

the conversation for people who

5:28

have dependence of opiates

5:31

and they've been in this kind of circle for

5:33

decades and decades that have separated

5:35

them from jobs and family when

5:38

there is a medical treatment available

5:40

to them. Because I do think that as we

5:42

see that type of treatment go

5:44

up, then people can better manage

5:47

and they won't go to the

5:49

use of street drugs, which is very dangerous.

5:52

But with quarantine and isolation,

5:54

the risk of death with the use of

5:56

some of these drugs goes up for people

5:59

who are used to being among a group of

6:01

people and now they're on their own.

6:03

And I'm very focused on what

6:06

the use of telemedicine in this

6:08

COVID period is going to do for us.

6:10

How can we use technology

6:13

and put it in the hands of people or

6:15

put it in more public spaces so

6:17

that people can connect with providers.

6:20

I'm really excited about the kind

6:22

of continuum of public

6:25

health supports that can be provided

6:27

in that way. Mona, Mary,

6:29

you spoke a little bit ago about

6:32

your hope to build a

6:34

facility where people could detox and

6:36

hopefully could be well positioned

6:39

to be on a path to recovery. And yet often

6:41

facilities and clinics

6:44

that do that work receive some

6:46

pushback from neighbors

6:48

saying like, we don't want those people here,

6:50

We don't want that in our backyard. Have

6:52

you confronted that, NDC, and how do you

6:55

respond to that? Oh, no, not

6:57

inting that would never happen. Yes,

7:00

I have confronted that, and I've had

7:02

the opportunity, you know, d C Chelsea.

7:04

So you know, before I was mayor, I was a Ward Council

7:07

member and this issue has come up many times.

7:10

We for example, and I'm sure

7:12

you're familiar with Oxford Houses,

7:14

when people come together in a residential

7:17

environment, independent living and

7:19

they're all everybody's in recovery. It's

7:21

a kind of hands off government approach

7:23

to people getting back on their feet. And I love

7:25

the model and it actually

7:28

has worked very well here. But you're

7:30

right, if people know about it, they're

7:32

concerned about just other

7:34

people who made too many mistakes living

7:37

close to them and maybe being a danger to

7:39

them. And the thing that always

7:41

gets me when I'm in a community,

7:44

I can always say, who do you think these people

7:46

are? They're your neighbors,

7:48

they are brothers, cousins,

7:51

nephews, friends. We all

7:53

have somebody that we know who needs

7:56

help getting back on their feet, and

7:58

they have to have a place to live us like you,

8:01

and you know, I've developed over

8:03

the years all kinds of ways to help

8:05

homes like that integrate

8:07

into d C. It's not easy. I've

8:09

had too many neighborhood fights about

8:11

it, but it's so worthwhile when

8:14

people just recognize that

8:16

there are all kinds of people in the world,

8:18

and sometimes people are going to need a

8:20

second chance, and it maybe you, it

8:22

may be a cousin and nephew, your

8:24

son, daughter, And we

8:27

live in a community that values supporting

8:29

each other. So it takes a little

8:31

bit of extra leadership and

8:34

work on the part of elected officials,

8:36

but it is worth it, clearly

8:38

I agree, And certainly

8:40

over the last few years there has

8:43

been a real push from

8:45

the public health community and from clinicians

8:48

and others who are on the front lines of treating

8:50

and working with people who have substance

8:52

use disorders and addiction to really try

8:54

to move to an approach of harm reduction.

8:57

You know, while you certainly hope

8:59

people can be on a path of recovery

9:01

and sobriety, you want to reduce

9:03

the harm that they are doing to themselves

9:06

while that happens. And clearly nar Can is

9:08

a major example of

9:10

harm reduction. Can you just talk a little

9:12

bit more about your citywide commitment to

9:14

narcan now? Absolutely, I

9:17

don't think that we've done enough

9:19

to talk about harm reduction because

9:21

we still live in a world where

9:24

addiction is seen as weakness,

9:26

not as an illness. So

9:28

that's why I do think that leads

9:31

to some of the persistent stigma

9:34

related to substance abuse disorders,

9:36

and so really educating people and

9:39

constantly having those conversations

9:42

I think will reduce the stigma,

9:44

will help people get help and

9:46

manage their illness and stay

9:48

alive, and all of those things are important.

9:51

I've been Mayor six years and over

9:54

that time we've been working on nar

9:56

Can distribution. Very recently

9:58

in our drug stores. Now someone

10:01

can go in who is a

10:03

family member, friend, potential bystander,

10:06

and get the nasal spray, which

10:08

were is going to help us save lives

10:11

and also lead to some productive conversations

10:14

about substance abuse disorders

10:17

and harm reduction. That we're trying

10:19

to keep people safe and keep people

10:21

alive and not come to some

10:23

judgment about their illness.

10:29

We'll be right back stay with us, so

10:41

Mayor Bowser, as we hopefully

10:44

are moving out of the pandemic

10:46

over the course of this year. How do you

10:48

think about your job to

10:50

help people move forward from this

10:52

collective trauma that we've been through, especially

10:55

for young people who have been so dislocated

10:57

and so isolated from

11:00

going to school, from playing sports,

11:02

from going to church, from seeing

11:05

their friends in the park, from seeing their grandparents

11:07

at holidays. Because this has

11:09

been a collective trauma too, and one that's fallen

11:12

the hardest on our most vulnerable. I

11:14

think I struggle with that, to be honest

11:17

with you, Chelsea, because my experience

11:19

has just been so different, because I've been

11:22

in person at work every day

11:24

of this pandemic, and so

11:27

when I'm talking to friends. I

11:29

have a god daughter who's a tween, and

11:31

I just see in them what

11:33

this has done to their social

11:36

interactions, to their love of school,

11:38

their love of sports, just as you said,

11:41

and people have to ease back

11:43

into that. I noticed that when we reopen

11:45

our schools, people have given teachers

11:47

are hard time for this, that

11:50

and the other. And I did too, except

11:52

they were at home. Had to

11:54

pivot to teaching lessons at home.

11:57

Some teachers hadn't been in their buildings for

11:59

eight or nine months. And so what I

12:01

have seen, just and

12:04

because we're just trying it putting

12:06

one foot in front of the other, is that as

12:08

people come back to those environments,

12:11

they have to kind of softly come back. So

12:13

maybe you don't say everybody starts

12:15

work on Monday at nine am. Maybe you invite

12:18

one group in to have just

12:21

a small staff meeting, or you invite

12:23

you know, a sit down, little coffee for six,

12:26

or you do a tour so everybody can

12:28

see how the plexiglass

12:30

has been put up and their social distancing

12:33

reminders. So I think people

12:35

have to be eased back into

12:37

their normal lives and we have

12:40

to give each other the grace to do

12:42

that. While at the same time all

12:44

of us are leaders in our communities, we

12:46

have to recognize that we've lost some things

12:49

not being together and having a

12:51

real plan to get back to those

12:54

things. It's just really important

12:56

to our mental health, physical health,

12:58

or academic health. Our relationships

13:01

are jobs and productivities in our

13:03

downtowns. I'm sitting in downtown

13:05

Washington right now, and sometimes

13:07

early on in the pandemic, it would make

13:09

me cry just to see how empty

13:12

the streets were and how

13:14

a restaurant clothes meant thirty people

13:16

who weren't working and didn't know how they

13:18

were going to feed their families. And they have these

13:21

beautiful museums where

13:23

Americans aren't visiting right now. So

13:26

I think that we all have to ease

13:28

back in, but we have to

13:30

have a plan to get back. To

13:34

learn more about Mayor Bowser's work on addiction

13:37

treatment and harm reduction and everything

13:39

else she's doing, please go to Mayor

13:41

dot DC dot gov. Dak

13:47

Shepherd wears a lot of hats. He's

13:50

a hilarious and informative podcast

13:52

Armchair Expert, which he co hosts

13:54

with Monica Padman. He's a talented

13:56

actor who has appeared in too many movies and TV

13:59

shows to list. He's husband to actor

14:01

Kristen Bell. He's a dad, and

14:03

he's an advocate for approaching issues of addiction

14:05

with openness and honesty. It's

14:07

inspiring to have the chance to talk with someone

14:09

who has worked so hard to shatter stigma

14:12

around substance used disorders and addiction, particularly

14:15

including by speaking openly about his own

14:17

experiences. One

14:22

of the reasons I'm so grateful

14:24

to talk with you today is I think we need

14:26

people who just refused to be shamed and

14:29

are honest because I

14:31

hope that helps other people. Then

14:34

refused to be shamed privately or

14:36

publicly. Yeah, I think maybe

14:38

it would be helpful for me to say

14:41

how I delineate between

14:43

shame and guilt. I think guilt is a tremendously

14:46

wonderful emotion. I think it is

14:48

often the motivation for change,

14:51

It's the motivation for apologies.

14:53

It's great guilt is I did

14:56

something bad, or I did

14:58

something I wish I hadn't. Shame

15:00

is I am bad, I am a

15:02

piece of ship, I am not worthy

15:05

of love. There's nothing very

15:07

constructive that can come out of that, but guilt.

15:09

I'm all about embracing guilt, and I have it all

15:12

the time. When I've been very public

15:14

about my stuff. I don't feel shame because

15:17

I apologize. I make amend I make

15:19

an attempt to write the things I've done, and

15:22

once I've done that, I don't have any

15:24

shame about it, and I'm not carrying around

15:26

fifteen years of shame from when I was a raging

15:28

addict. I felt guilty about a lot of those things, but

15:31

I I'm not embarrassed by them.

15:33

I agree. I mean guilt hopefully helps us take responsibility,

15:36

and certainly as parents, I want

15:39

my when like you're throwing a magnetile

15:41

down the toilet and we had to call the plumber,

15:44

Like, I'm glad that they felt guilty about

15:46

that. I'm also like even more glad they took responsibility

15:49

and apologized for anyone

15:51

who's listening to us tax who may not be familiar

15:53

with your story, would you just share a little

15:55

bit of your history with addiction?

15:58

For sure, but briefly to want to say yeah. The

16:00

proudest and I am of my children ever

16:03

is when they admit something and say

16:05

sorry. That to me is the single most impressive

16:08

thing a little person can do, because

16:10

it's the bravest thing to own

16:13

your shortcomings. It's so hard

16:16

to do. It really is hard to do. So

16:18

when they do that to me is like way

16:20

better than a's way better than cartwheels

16:23

and all this other stuff they do. Okay,

16:25

so my story in a nutshell is if people

16:27

know what the ACE score is, you know you can

16:29

take this childhood trauma test.

16:31

There's I want to say, eight or ten questions

16:34

and I'm getting get all these numbers

16:36

wrong, but you'll get the message if you

16:38

had a parent that was mentally ill, if you grew up with

16:40

food deprivation, if you had an addict

16:42

in the house, if you were subjected to sexual abuse,

16:45

if you're subjected to physical abuse, all

16:47

these things. I took that test because

16:49

we had a guest on explaining it to us, Nadine

16:51

Burke, and I was like aid to the ten

16:54

or something, and I was like, okay,

16:56

that explains a lot of things. You

16:58

know, an addiction being one of those. I come by

17:01

it through generations of addicts

17:03

before me, and then I had a good deal

17:05

those childhood traumas. And

17:09

if you had asked me at eighteen, I would have just said

17:11

I liked drinking. It's fun. I like having

17:13

fun. It was tremendous

17:16

amount of fun for eight years.

17:18

It worked great. And uh

17:20

I also did a copious amount of cocaine.

17:22

That was probably my favorite thing to do, and

17:25

then it became untenable and

17:28

it didn't work anymore. I would be on

17:30

all the things that kept me from feeling

17:33

the feelings I didn't want to feel, and I was still

17:35

feeling them. It just wasn't an escape

17:37

anymore. And I tried

17:40

to get sober. Many times I would get

17:42

two months, i'd get three months. This

17:44

went on for a couple of years, and

17:46

then I had this very unique experience

17:49

where I was about to start a movie.

17:51

I decided to take a vacation. I went

17:53

down to Hawaii with a friend. I specifically

17:56

went there because I knew, or I believe,

17:58

they didn't have cocaine there. I found Chris Math

18:00

instead, just a week

18:02

of just terrible over

18:05

consumption. By the time I flew home, I was so

18:08

sick that I

18:10

could barely get on the plane and I had to layover in San

18:13

Francisco, and to get on the next plane

18:15

I had I had to go to the bar and

18:17

have four or five jack and cokes

18:19

just to do it to get through the next

18:21

flight. And I was in the corner of

18:23

this bar because

18:26

I had been in a a at that point, so I was

18:28

just paranoid someone from A A was going

18:30

to see me in this airport. And I

18:33

was also starting a movie where I was going to make the most amount

18:36

of money I've ever made in my life, an amount

18:38

of money that I was positive would make me

18:41

feel happy. And people

18:43

had recognized me the whole time I was in Hawaii,

18:46

and that was something else I had believed

18:48

would make me feel happy. And

18:51

on paper, I had everything I

18:53

had set out to get when I

18:55

moved to l A. And I was like

18:58

just so miserable and suicidal

19:01

that I thought, oh boy, you have all the

19:03

things now, and you're the

19:05

most miserable you've ever been, so

19:08

something much bigger is broken. I

19:11

consider that a huge, huge gift that

19:14

I was so lucky and spoiled

19:16

that I had those things, because I honestly

19:18

don't know if I could

19:20

have figured that out without those things, because for so many

19:22

years I was telling myself it was

19:24

those things that were missing in my life and

19:26

that if I had those I would have real self

19:28

esteem and like myself and and be

19:31

joyful. And I just

19:33

feel like it's such a blessing that I could get those things

19:35

and feel suicidal, because it

19:38

really made me confront that something much

19:40

much bigger was going on. That was

19:42

my last drink. That was sixteen and

19:44

a half years ago. And then I

19:47

was sober for sixteen years, and

19:50

I raced motorcycles, I raced

19:52

cars. I do a lot of stupid

19:55

things to get malapproval, and I get hurt

19:57

often, and I have surgeries often, And

20:00

during quarantine I had two in a row. Um

20:04

there was an off roading accident and there was a motorcycle

20:06

accident. And through the course of

20:08

being on opiates for I

20:11

don't know, maybe you know, a solid month

20:13

and a half out of a three month window. The

20:16

second time when it when it was over, I

20:18

was like this, No, this is not

20:20

over. I'm going to keep going. So then I started

20:23

obtaining them illegally. I

20:26

came to this idea that I

20:28

knew what unmanageability was. It was that

20:30

trip to Hawaii where I'm in a car accident

20:33

on day two of the trip. There's police involved.

20:35

That to me represented

20:38

powerlessness in unmanageability.

20:40

The obiit thing was very misleading because

20:43

I still was doing everything I'm supposed

20:45

to do. I was still interviewing people

20:47

and they were going it was going well. I was still

20:49

playing with my kids on stop and putting them to bed and waking

20:51

them up and doing all the dad stuff, and I just

20:54

generally was cruising through life

20:56

without any unmanageability

20:58

other than the

21:01

terrible aspect of opiates is that your

21:03

tolerance just is going up daily. So

21:05

my intakes going up daily just to stay

21:08

at this level that I don't have

21:10

to think about any emotions I have. And

21:12

then it got to a level where it occurred

21:15

to me, oh, you're extremely

21:17

physically addicted to these and you're going to have a

21:19

detox. And everything was secret

21:21

still at that point, and I'm getting

21:23

kind of visibly DETOXI

21:26

to my loved ones, and I'm

21:29

at that point line and saying, because

21:32

I do I have, Sorry Edkarth right, So I'm saying, oh, I

21:34

have. I'm having a really bad flare up and

21:36

that's why I'm so And this goes

21:38

on for a couple of days. And

21:43

the one thing I got out of those sixteen years of being

21:45

sobers I hadn't gasol at anyone.

21:48

And I used to be able to do that like

21:51

crazy when I was an addict. Before

21:53

I could look at everyone and like to them and

21:56

it was just um, I couldn't. I

21:58

couldn't do it. I was make keen.

22:00

People who loved me feel crazy because they

22:02

knew something was going on and I

22:04

was lying. And then I just

22:07

eventually came clean to my wife

22:09

and to Monica, my co host and

22:11

best friend. Yeah, and then

22:13

I had to go to my fucking meeting I've been going

22:15

to for sixteen years and say,

22:18

yeah, I took a cake last week and

22:20

I was high, and it was terrible.

22:22

Weirdly, it was terrible leading up to

22:25

it because I had built

22:27

this whole identity in my head around having

22:29

sixteen years. I loved having sixteen years.

22:31

I love talking about in the podcast. I love that people would

22:33

message me and say a month three. I love

22:35

being inspirational to people for sobriety.

22:38

And it became I was I was holding on

22:40

to that so much. I

22:42

was deriving so much of my self esteem from that

22:44

that I was really scared of not

22:47

having that, and

22:49

so I avoided losing that for a while

22:52

for a couple of months, and then eventually

22:54

I just the I couldn't do

22:57

it and I and I had to telling

22:59

myself, and then I felt very obligated

23:02

for the people that have been inspired listening to

23:04

me get sober that I got to share

23:06

the fact that yes, sometimes man, sometimes

23:10

it doesn't work out, and you know, the solution

23:12

is just being honest and coming back. And

23:15

how do you feel now today? Oh? My

23:17

god, so good. One of

23:19

the most basic tenants in

23:22

the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous is that

23:25

addicts cannot afford to have resentments.

23:27

We can't carry resentments. You

23:29

know. I had to ask myself, how did that happen?

23:32

Okay, I have clearly I have resentments,

23:34

and I have things I need to confront

23:36

and work out. And so this

23:39

has been like a second chance to confront

23:41

all those things that have been building up.

23:43

And I have to say today, at least

23:45

I feel better with

23:48

six months than I had felt at fifteen

23:50

years. How do you talk to your

23:52

kids about addiction? Oh,

23:54

I just like I'm talking to you. Yeah. They know

23:57

that dad goes to an A A meeting every Tuesday

23:59

and Thursday. They know I'm leaving. Where are you going? One

24:02

of the cuter moments was I want to

24:04

say, my oldest daughter was three,

24:08

Macma, and my daughters really wanted to be with me twenty

24:10

four hours a day, and she said, where are you going,

24:12

and I said, I'm going to Hey,

24:14

why do you Why do you have to go? I go because I'm an

24:16

alcoholic and if I don't go there, then I'll drink

24:19

and then I'll be a terrible dad. And

24:21

she said, can I go? And I said, well,

24:23

no, you got to be an alcoholic. And she goes,

24:26

I'm going to be an alcoholic and

24:30

I said, you know, you might become

24:32

one. It's the odds are not in your favor,

24:35

but but you're not there yet. And

24:38

they knew. They knew, Like when they relapsed.

24:40

We explained, well, Daddie was on these

24:43

pills for surgery, and then Daddy was a

24:45

bad boy and he started getting his own pills,

24:47

and yeah, we tell them the whole

24:49

thing. We're

24:53

taking a quick break. Stay with us.

25:07

We were talking about trauma earlier, and

25:09

increasingly a number of doctors

25:12

who study trauma or trying

25:14

to raise awareness that we all have had

25:16

a collective trauma during the pandemic

25:19

and that we need to be cognizant

25:21

of the way that trauma will

25:24

haunt us, and that if we don't

25:26

recognize it, name it, confront

25:28

it, it will haunt us, possibly for the

25:30

rest of our lives. And I think we have

25:32

to be able to talk about that and to help

25:34

others talk about that in the same

25:36

way. I'm sure for all the people who

25:38

have reached out to you to share their stories of

25:40

sobriety, I'm sure you've also had a lot of people reach

25:43

out to you to share that your

25:45

candor has helped them be candid

25:48

with their loved ones and ask for help. The

25:50

tipping point that got me to

25:52

be public about it was a

25:54

really good friend of mine who happened

25:56

to have the same sobriety date as myself

25:59

and where the exact same age, and we do the exact

26:01

same thing, so we're very very similar. And

26:04

I told him, of course immediately and and

26:06

I said, I don't really want to do it on the podcast,

26:09

and here's why. And he

26:11

said, he goes, Look, if

26:13

you're getting self esteem from the number,

26:16

that's silly. If you're getting self esteem because you

26:18

think it's helpful to people, that's

26:20

great. But if your goal then is

26:23

actually to help people, it's

26:25

so much more helpful that you relapsed.

26:28

Then it is you being sixteen

26:30

years sober and married to Kristen Bell. That's

26:33

not incredibly relatable to some

26:35

dude who's struggling but

26:37

lying to the people you love just

26:40

last month, that's pretty relatable.

26:43

And are there other people who's honesty

26:45

about their addiction journey

26:49

has inspired you? Oh?

26:51

God, ya. There's this guy I hadn't

26:53

known really. He was a professional skateboarder

26:56

and very famous for that, and

26:58

then he he had a really popular radio

27:01

show on Sirius, Jason Allis,

27:03

and he fights mm A now. As

27:05

someone that grew up without a dad who was desperate

27:08

for all male approval, I did all

27:10

those things. I skateboarded, then I

27:12

wrote motorcycles, and I jumped things. Then

27:14

I raced things. Anything that would

27:16

check the you're a man box I

27:19

pursued, and I was most impressed

27:21

by guys who could do backflips on motorcycles

27:23

and stuff. So I'm never going to be able to impress

27:25

you. Basically, No, No, I have a whole another category

27:27

for females. Don't worry.

27:30

So I was. This was probably six years ago. Jason

27:34

Ellis was a guest on Howard Stern and I

27:36

was listening to the interview and Jason

27:38

told the story of having been

27:41

molested by his father all growing

27:43

up and how complicated

27:46

that was because he

27:49

loves his dad so much still

27:52

his dad had since passed away,

27:54

but the openness

27:58

and the willingness to share

28:00

that story in the way that he did.

28:03

I was listening to it and I had

28:05

chills. I thought, well, this is

28:07

the bravest thing I've witnessed in my life.

28:10

This, This so exceeds

28:13

doing backflips on a motorcycle

28:15

or jumping through fire. This, like, what

28:17

he's doing right here is

28:20

everyone's greatest fear. Like,

28:22

Look, how damaged I've become.

28:25

That's the kind of heroic bravery

28:28

I I am striving for to have to

28:30

be able to do that. That's as badass

28:32

as you can get. For me.

28:36

We talk about in our family how

28:38

important is to be brave and kind. I

28:40

say to my kids, if you're brave and you're kind,

28:43

you're going to be good. It's gonna work out, and I will

28:45

feel like I've done my job. Yeah. And

28:48

I can say from experience, I've

28:50

gotten physical altercations

28:52

in my wife's defense. And

28:55

if I was plotting that, the

28:58

amount of bravery that took for me,

29:00

that was a four. And

29:03

me telling her that

29:05

I'm afraid she likes

29:08

her career more than she likes me was

29:10

a nine for me, that's so

29:12

much harder for me to do than to fight

29:14

a guy in her defense. Thinking

29:17

again about addiction and the ways

29:20

in which I think too often we cloak

29:22

addiction in shame and in

29:24

moralizing instead of in the real language

29:27

of public health and harm reduction

29:29

and treatment and solidarity. What

29:31

do you think or what would you like

29:34

to see change and how

29:36

we talk about addiction, how

29:38

we talk to kids about addiction, and how

29:40

we treat addiction in our country.

29:43

Well, first and foremost, just that no

29:46

one is ashamed to say

29:48

they're diabetic, no one's ashamed

29:50

to say they've got a broken

29:53

arm and a cast. In fact, it's awesome

29:55

when you have a cast. In elementary school.

29:58

I'll give my own example. I ink I grew

30:00

up thinking people that were addicts didn't have

30:03

will power, and I

30:05

think I demonstrated

30:08

great will power. I went to the groundlings

30:10

while also going to U c l A, while also

30:12

supporting myself, while also juggling

30:15

a full blown addiction, Like I think

30:18

I have tremendous will

30:20

power and I'm tremendously

30:23

responsible until you

30:25

add one thing into my body

30:28

alcohol and then it's anyone's

30:30

guests where I'll end up in four days, like

30:33

I don't feel shame about

30:35

that. This is clearly the

30:37

graph demonstrates who I am. And

30:40

then this thing alcohol

30:42

and drugs is this extreme.

30:45

I don't want to call it a weakness, just an

30:47

ability. I think the more

30:49

people take it out of the realm of yeah,

30:52

moral weakness or lack

30:54

of will power, or shortsightedness

30:57

or a headen any of those things,

31:00

I just don't think that's realistic.

31:03

One of my clearest memories

31:06

as a little kid was when my

31:09

my father told me that his brother had been

31:11

arrested for selling

31:14

cocaine to undercover cop and

31:16

he went to prison. He had struggled

31:18

with addiction throughout

31:21

his life. And yet what

31:23

I remember even more clearly it

31:25

was my grandmother, whom I called Grandma Ginger, being

31:27

inconsolable, sure, just

31:30

being devastated of

31:32

course that her younger son

31:35

was going to prison, but even more

31:37

so that he had been in so much pain and

31:39

that she had been unable

31:42

to help him. And even

31:44

in the mid eighties in Arkansas,

31:47

you know, my Grandma Ginger, who had been a nurse

31:49

and nurse and nasticist, knew

31:51

that prison wasn't going to help him

31:53

overcome or recover from, or move forward

31:55

from his addiction. So just

31:58

the devastation that she felt

32:00

of her failure as a mom, and

32:03

also our social failure and the way

32:05

that those had collided into her

32:07

son's life. Of course, couldn't

32:09

have articulated all that at five, but

32:11

I just felt like, oh, this isn't

32:14

right, this is wrong. There's just so much

32:16

that's wrong. And now

32:19

thirty five years later, we're

32:22

still incarcerating people for

32:25

low level drug use, whether

32:28

kind of marijuana or cocaine or

32:30

other substances, when we know

32:32

that if we really wanted to help

32:34

our country have less addiction,

32:37

fewer people been prisoned to their

32:39

addiction, we would be investing in treatment

32:42

and prevention and support and

32:44

not prisons and the

32:47

continued criminalization of substance

32:49

abuse. Yeah, and and and you know,

32:51

you also just cannot avoid

32:54

the reality that it is also so

32:57

disproportionately brought to bear

32:59

on black folks than it is white

33:01

folks, Black and Hispanics. It's

33:04

so lopsided. Not

33:06

only is it not helpful to the addicts, it's also

33:09

uniquely punishing to people

33:12

of color. Well,

33:14

thank you for sharing your reactions and more

33:16

decks, very very grateful. Thank you

33:18

so much. Yeah, it's a pleasure. You

33:23

can hear more from Dax on his podcast

33:25

Armchair Expert. This

33:30

is a really challenging time for people struggling

33:32

with substance use and addiction. Even

33:35

while we're seeing signs of hope and treatment, public

33:38

health departments are stretched to their breaking point,

33:40

and loneliness, isolation, and anxiety

33:43

are very much a constant for so many people,

33:46

and as we were reminded in today's conversation,

33:49

finding the help, support and community

33:51

necessary for recovery can be daunting

33:53

even in the best of times. One

33:56

of the reasons I wanted to talk about addiction for the podcast

33:59

is because this is an issue you that has touched so many

34:01

of our lives, and yet it is something we

34:03

still too often feel uncomfortable talking

34:05

about. We all have a stake

34:07

in changing the way we talk about and treat

34:09

substance abuse and addiction and making

34:11

it easier for people, families,

34:14

and communities to heal. If you

34:16

or someone you care about is struggling with addiction, please

34:19

know that you are not alone. For help,

34:21

please call the Substance Abuse and Mental Health

34:24

Services Administration's free confidential

34:27

hotline at one eight hundred

34:29

six six to help. That's

34:31

one eight hundred six six to four

34:34

three five seven. Thanks

34:36

for listening. In

34:39

Fact is brought to you by I Heart Radio.

34:41

We're produced by Erica Goodmanson, Lauren

34:44

Peterson, Cathy Russo, Julie

34:46

Subrian, and Justin Wright, with help

34:48

from the Hidden Light team of Barry Lurry,

34:50

Sarah Horowitz, Nikki Huggett,

34:52

Emily Young and Humanity, with

34:54

additional support from Lindsay Hoffman. Original

34:57

music is by Justin Wright. If

34:59

you liked this episode of In Fact, please

35:02

make sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode,

35:04

and tell your family and friends to do the same. If

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35:11

for listening, and see you next week.