0:07

Hi, I'm Chelsea Clinton, and this

0:09

season on in fact, we're celebrating Women's

0:11

History Month. I'll be talking with trailblazing

0:14

women at the top of their fields about their personal

0:16

journeys, the progress women have made,

0:19

and how far we still have to go. Today,

0:22

we're talking about women in business with Shar Dubai.

0:25

She's the CEO of Match Group, which

0:27

owns and operates some of the world's most popular

0:30

and profitable online dating companies,

0:32

including tender Match, ok

0:35

Cupid, and Hinge. Full disclosure,

0:37

I came to Noshar because I'm on the board of IC,

0:40

which owns a majority stake in Match Group.

0:43

Back in nineteen sixty three, Katherine

0:45

Graham became the first woman to lead

0:48

a Fortune five hundred company. But

0:50

since then, the number of women in charge

0:52

of major companies hasn't exactly

0:55

skyrocketed, in fact,

0:57

far from it. In the Fortune

1:00

where the Match Group falls, only seven

1:02

percent of CEOs or women, and

1:05

the percent of female CEOs of color like

1:07

Shar only one percent.

1:10

And yet, as you may have heard, study

1:12

after study shows that companies with women in leadership

1:15

roles are more profitable than those led

1:17

solely by men. So why

1:19

aren't there more women and what or

1:22

who is holding women back. Shar

1:25

has a unique vantage point on all this, and

1:28

she's used to being one of the only women in the

1:30

room. She studied engineering at

1:32

the Indian Institute of Technology

1:34

and received a master's in engineering

1:37

from Ohio State. Since joining

1:39

the Match Group in two thousand and six, she's

1:41

held a number of leadership positions, including

1:43

CEO and president of Tinder, and she

1:46

became CEO of Match Group in March

1:48

twenty twenty. Yes, March twenty

1:50

twenty. That means she took the helm of

1:53

a major company whose product was

1:55

dating just as the pandemic was

1:57

starting. And while many CEOs

2:00

kept quiet on social justice issues, Shar

2:02

has been unafraid to speak out, including

2:05

an opposition to the new anti

2:07

woman anti abortion law in Texas,

2:09

where Match Group is based, and in support

2:12

of Congress reauthorizing the Violence Against

2:14

Women Act. Well,

2:22

Shar, thank you so much for being

2:24

part of this podcast series, and

2:27

I have been fortunate to know

2:29

you now for a number of years

2:31

and believe that many people listening

2:34

to us may not know that apps

2:36

that are part of their maybe daily

2:38

life, but you know, at least probably weekly

2:41

or monthly life, are part of

2:43

a company match that's helped

2:45

by a woman by you, and so

2:47

I thought we could just start kind of

2:49

at the beginning. When did you know you were interested

2:52

in science and engineering.

2:55

I'm so excited to be here. It's the

2:57

first time I'm doing a podcast, so hopefully

2:59

we'll get at this right. I'm your

3:01

first podcast. You are my first

3:04

podcast. I feel very honored.

3:06

Thank you. I grew up in

3:08

a small town in the northeastern

3:11

part of India and my dad was

3:13

a professor of mechanical engineering.

3:16

So I grew up on the campus

3:18

of an engineering school and

3:21

that's sort of what exposed

3:23

me to science and technology

3:26

at the time, which was a different sort of technology.

3:29

Because this is seventies and eighties. The

3:31

Internet hadn't come around yet,

3:33

let alone smartphones and apps, right,

3:36

and I was certainly

3:38

exposed to engineering. I think

3:40

the appeal for it was more the

3:43

fact that very few girls were doing

3:45

it. It was a field that was dominated

3:47

by boys and men, so

3:49

that was an appeal that wasn't daunting

3:51

to you, That's exactly right. I wanted

3:54

to show that I could do something that was

3:56

not expected of me,

3:58

and so I think that was the appeal I

4:01

applied to one of the top

4:03

engineering schools in India called the I

4:05

It's sort of the MT. This

4:07

was in the late eighties. So

4:10

I found myself being the only

4:12

girl in most of my classes in

4:14

engineering school. And looking

4:16

back at that experience, I think

4:18

a lot of those four years is

4:21

what shape who I ended up becoming

4:23

as an adult and a leader. And

4:26

when you were in your engineering classes and

4:28

you were one of a few or

4:31

the only girl, were

4:33

you ever intimidated or did you just

4:35

continue to feel like I have to prove what

4:38

I can do and what girls can

4:40

do. I think I went in

4:42

with a lot more confidence than I should

4:45

have, and the first few

4:47

weeks were challenging.

4:49

I found myself in these classes

4:51

with eighty two hundred boys, and nobody

4:54

wanted to sit next to me. My lab

4:56

partner wouldn't come do his lab

4:59

and I think it, but

5:01

he took credit for your work. I'm sure yes.

5:04

And so I did actually believe

5:06

it or not think about quitting for

5:09

about the first time and only time in my

5:11

life. And there was a girl

5:13

who was a few years senior to me.

5:16

She told me, she said, if you're going to quit,

5:19

who is that going to hurt, you're the

5:21

one that's going to lose, and so gritted

5:23

up and I did, and

5:26

I ended up becoming really good friends with

5:28

most of my classmates afterwards.

5:31

And how do you think that set of experiences

5:33

of being one of the few women,

5:36

of having to continually

5:39

prove yourself to your classmates,

5:41

probably to your faculty, how

5:43

do you think that has shaped you as a

5:45

leader today. You know, there's

5:48

a few things that I think it taught

5:50

me. One how to navigate

5:53

a world that was different

5:55

looking, and most people didn't expect

5:57

me to be there, and I had

5:59

to figure out how to stand

6:01

out enough of standing out visually

6:04

anyways, but how do I

6:06

minimize that visual standout

6:09

and prove that I deserved to

6:11

be there? And I think those were skills

6:14

that sort of came into play even after

6:16

I came to this country and my first

6:19

job in this country, where I was the first woman

6:22

engineer they ever hired and the first

6:24

foreigner. I was the first person they did

6:26

the HNB processing for. It

6:29

was an aerospace engine manufacturing

6:32

company in rural Pennsylvania. So

6:34

I would say a culture shock both for

6:37

me and for everybody there. But

6:40

I think my experience at I It certainly

6:43

gave me the confidence to be able

6:45

to navigate that. And

6:47

how do you think now about creating

6:50

opportunities for women at match

6:53

Ensuring that women who may

6:55

not have yet the internal

6:58

grit and gratitude

7:00

and pretty unshakable confidence that

7:03

you clearly have had throughout your life can

7:05

come to believe in themselves and can prove

7:08

to themselves as well as of course to

7:10

their colleagues and to you, what they can

7:12

do. One of

7:14

the things I feel really proud about

7:16

what Mandy and I accomplish at least at Match.

7:19

Mandy Ginsburg, who was the CEO

7:21

of Match Group before me. When

7:23

we started here about

7:26

fifteen years ago, we were the only

7:28

two women in leadership positions,

7:30

and today I think thirty eight

7:33

percent of our VP and

7:35

above positions are women. And

7:38

a lot of that comes from people seeing

7:41

you doing the things that you do,

7:44

talking about all the challenges

7:46

that you have to face. We were both young

7:49

moms at the time when we started, and

7:51

we were very comfortable talking

7:53

about having to run to the

7:56

doctor's office, or having to get

7:58

up in the middle of a meeting and to pick

8:00

up the kid from school because they

8:02

were sick, or what have you. And that

8:05

made other women, I think, more comfortable

8:08

bringing their entire

8:10

lives to work versus compartmentalizing

8:13

working home. We were also

8:15

we found we were able to attract

8:18

more women and we were able to

8:20

close more women in the interview

8:22

process, and some

8:25

of that is what has led to

8:27

Match Group in general being a

8:30

company that has been

8:32

much more welcoming and comfortable for

8:34

women to work at. Not to mention, we've

8:36

had two CEOs in a row who are women.

8:39

Yes, it certainly matters. It matters

8:41

because there are still so few

8:44

women CEOs sitting atop

8:46

big companies. Do you feel

8:49

any pressure by being one of the few women's

8:52

CEOs of a company of matches

8:55

size in the United States? You

8:57

know, I was thinking about this. The first

9:00

women's CEO of a Fortune five

9:02

hundred company, it was Katherine Graham.

9:05

And last year, in twenty

9:07

twenty one, there are only forty one women

9:09

who are CEOs of Fortune five

9:12

hundred companies, like, not even

9:14

one per year in the interim, And

9:16

so that's eight percent, right, So any

9:19

which way you look at it, it's single

9:21

digit percentage of women that are

9:23

at the top. What gives me

9:25

a little bit of hope and comfort though,

9:28

is just as college

9:31

degrees when women started going to college

9:33

and there was a big acceleration of college degrees

9:36

among women. First came education,

9:38

then came other fields like medicine

9:41

is one where nobody questions the presence

9:43

of women there. I do think

9:46

both technology, which

9:48

is very underrepresented

9:50

by women, and also business leadership

9:54

is hopefully going to be one that gets accelerated

9:57

much faster over the next decade, because

9:59

I do se a lot more women

10:01

in mid and SDIU management

10:03

positions who are sort of a few years

10:06

from getting there. I think, and

10:09

hopefully we will regain

10:11

all the progress that we did lose over the last

10:13

couple of years of COVID, where we know millions

10:16

of women at every trunch of

10:18

leadership and across a multitude

10:20

of professions left because they couldn't

10:23

manage being a parent and

10:25

a professional. How do

10:27

you think about match

10:30

supporting the many thousands of people who

10:32

work at the company over these

10:34

still uncertain times. We

10:37

are lucky that we have a business

10:40

where we can actually work one

10:42

hundred percent remote, which is what we've been

10:44

doing for most of the last couple

10:46

of years. But that hasn't been easy for

10:49

women who have to juggle

10:52

the childcare and all the

10:54

dozens of things that they have to

10:56

take care of. But even going forward,

10:59

one of the things that I am worried about

11:02

and starting to think about how to address

11:05

is as this sort of hybrid

11:07

remote work becomes

11:10

the norm, nobody we all know, at

11:12

least in our industry, nobody's

11:14

coming back to a nine to five, five days

11:16

a week sort of schedule anymore. So

11:19

whatever form that takes,

11:21

I do think women are going

11:24

to over index in

11:26

terms of being more remote and

11:29

what does that do by way of mentorship,

11:32

by way of opportunities.

11:35

It is challenging to build relationships

11:38

when you're not face to face and in person

11:40

and having all of those sidebar conversations,

11:43

which is very difficult to do on zoom.

11:46

And what sort of unconscious

11:48

or subconscious biases will that

11:51

create and how are we going to

11:53

measure it once this becomes the

11:55

norm in some ways, So it is definitely

11:57

an area for all of us to be thinking about and

11:59

how we're going to solve it. I share

12:01

your concern that as long as we do

12:04

exist in sort of uncertain hybrid

12:06

dynamics, women will continue

12:09

to be disadvantaged. So I do think as

12:12

much certainty that can be

12:14

built in so that women can plan on our

12:16

lives and the totality of our lives. I

12:18

do believe will matter a great deal.

12:23

We'll be right back stay with us. You

12:37

know we talked about how hard it is to build

12:39

working relationships remotely. It's also

12:42

hard to build romantic relationships

12:44

remotely. And you became

12:47

CEO of Match, like right

12:49

before COVID nineteen

12:52

exploded. Can you talk about what

12:54

you saw among Match users that

12:56

I think people might be surprised to hear.

12:59

A business took a real hit in

13:01

the first few weeks when this COVID

13:04

thing was just starting around the second

13:06

week of March. Everything from

13:08

activity and usage to propensity

13:11

to pay, all of it took a hit.

13:14

But then, and of course, it was

13:16

a big scramble to try to figure out

13:18

what do we have to change everything

13:20

from our marketing creatives. Right we have

13:23

people going out to restaurants

13:25

on dates that didn't seem like

13:27

the right message to be airing

13:30

at the time. We had to rejigger entire

13:33

product roadmap. We knew, okay, if

13:35

people are not going to be able to meet in person,

13:38

what are they going to do? There was a part of me that

13:40

was excited about this because I always

13:43

thought video was such

13:45

a great tool to sort of bridge

13:47

the disconnect that happens between those online

13:50

conversations and the first time you meet someone

13:52

in real life. And I

13:54

always thought it's such a great

13:57

half date tool, if you will, and

13:59

a prolog a prologue maybe, yeah,

14:02

exactly. And I've been trying

14:04

to experiment with videos since

14:06

twenty eleven and it never

14:09

took off. But it felt

14:11

like this was it. This was the moment for video

14:13

and fortunately for us, about

14:16

middle to end of April, things started

14:19

looking better. People were

14:22

coming to our platforms in larger numbers.

14:24

The surprising thing that happened was

14:27

women on our platforms

14:29

were more engaged, were messaging

14:32

more. We're talking for longer than

14:34

we've ever seen before. And

14:36

what do you make of that? Shore So I

14:38

have two hypothesis on it. One

14:41

women, You know, we all need human

14:43

connection, and women

14:45

needed more. We need to be able

14:48

to talk it out, empathize

14:50

with people. People in the US.

14:52

We're reaching out to people in Italy because

14:55

that was the first country that had been heavily

14:57

hit, So it wasn't just about the Roman

15:00

intent necessarily. People truly

15:02

wanted and were craving for this human

15:05

connection. And we

15:07

jokingly also said men are spending time

15:09

playing video games and women are on our platforms

15:12

trying to make human connections.

15:14

But I really do think that was

15:16

what drove a surge and activity

15:19

on our platforms. And

15:21

by summer we were in much better shape,

15:23

having transformed all of

15:25

our product marketing

15:28

strategy and plans, and you increased

15:30

revenue for them. We did. We had we turned

15:33

the business that has done pretty well. We

15:35

just announced our earnings. We

15:38

had twenty five percent increase in our

15:40

revenue. Really remarkable.

15:42

Sure, I think one of the things

15:44

that has always impressed me about

15:47

you is, just as you were reflecting

15:49

that you don't stop being a mom.

15:51

You know, when you walk into your office or

15:53

onto a zoom screen these days, you

15:55

don't check your humanity either. As

15:58

a leader, you are so fully yourself

16:01

and you have used your platform

16:04

to talk about issues that you think are really important,

16:06

really important to you as a woman, really important

16:08

to you as a person. You know. I'm thinking particularly

16:11

about the horrifically restrictive

16:14

new laws and Texas as relates

16:16

to abortion care and

16:19

the really just a horrific reality of violence

16:21

against women in every country,

16:23

including here in the United

16:26

States, and so just you

16:28

want to know why it is so important

16:30

for you to be your full self and why

16:33

it is so important for you to take a stand

16:35

on issues that clearly matter to

16:37

you and you believe it should matter to all

16:39

of us. One of the things I've realized

16:42

is trying to not be

16:44

your full, authentic self

16:47

is kind of stressful. You

16:49

know, it's stressful to know what to bring

16:51

and what not do, how to compartmentalize

16:54

things. I've never been very good

16:56

at that. So this is who I am in

16:58

all facets of life in

17:01

terms of some of these issues. We are

17:03

a social product. We bring

17:05

people together for this very

17:08

important and existential need

17:10

that we all have, that of love, relationships,

17:13

and human connection. But

17:15

it's not always great, and it is

17:18

absolutely our responsibility,

17:20

both as a company as well as leaders

17:22

of the company, to make sure

17:25

we are leading the way

17:27

of making this new world

17:30

online, a world

17:32

is safe, a place for the future generation.

17:35

I think about it. Ten years ago,

17:37

we weren't on these digital

17:40

platforms. It's just been

17:42

a decade since so much

17:44

of our lives has moved online. But

17:46

for our kids, they are digital

17:49

native. This is the world they know, and

17:51

they're going to spend more and more parts

17:53

of their life on these platforms.

17:55

And for us as human beings,

17:57

we've spent hundreds and hundreds of years

18:00

trying to figure out what is the proper

18:02

code of conduct and rules of

18:04

behavior and laws and

18:07

law enforcement of interpersonal

18:10

connection in the real world. And

18:12

obviously none of us know how

18:15

to navigate this well in

18:17

this digital world. Whether it is how

18:19

anonymous should we be, what are

18:21

the laws and who is responsible for

18:23

enforcing these laws, and so there's a

18:26

lot of things we have to figure out. I

18:28

think, and I always say,

18:30

it is going to take the

18:32

trifecta of regulators,

18:35

technology platform leaders, as well

18:37

as all of us society in general

18:40

to figure out what is it

18:42

that we want from these platforms,

18:44

because safety and privacy can sometimes

18:46

be at odds because you need more

18:49

of your information out there so people

18:51

can make the platform safer, but

18:53

then you know, you do lose some of your privacy.

18:55

So there's a host of complicated, difficult

18:58

questions we have to collectively figure

19:00

out. And I do think it is not

19:03

just my responsibility, but our collective

19:05

responsibility to figure that out. In

19:08

terms of sort of social issues that

19:10

are somewhat unrelated

19:13

to the business itself. That's a trickier

19:15

ground. And for the Texas

19:18

laws, the stands I took. That was a

19:20

personal thing for me because

19:23

somebody asked me for comment, and I just

19:25

in good faith couldn't say no comment because

19:27

I felt passionately that

19:30

we cannot after making all of

19:32

this progress, we can't go back. This

19:34

is not the right thing. And

19:36

I did get a lot of feedback about this is not a

19:38

place for a CEO to be making comments

19:41

on, and I get it, I understand

19:43

that, but it is it's just something I

19:46

felt really passionately about

19:48

and I couldn't keep quiet.

19:51

Well, I've never understood well,

19:53

I mean, I do understand it's power protecting

19:55

itself, But from a moral perspective,

19:58

I've never understood the

20:01

stance that business leaders

20:04

shouldn't have opinions or

20:06

perspectives on anything

20:08

outside of their

20:11

narrowly defined business. Because, of

20:13

course, things like voting rights impact

20:16

business. Of course, things like reproductive

20:19

choice impact your business, if only

20:21

because it impacts the people who you're employing.

20:23

But that should matter, and so certainly it

20:26

matters to me that you are modeling a different

20:29

type of CEO than often what we have

20:31

seen, even in more recent times.

20:36

We're taking a quick break. Stay with

20:38

us. We

20:49

talked about how you think of supporting

20:53

opportunities for women at kind

20:55

of a holistic company level. I

20:57

am curious, though, what advice you give to women,

20:59

women who are engineers, or maybe

21:01

not engineers, but who want

21:04

to become competent, qualified

21:06

and excellent leaders. And when

21:08

people come and ask you for advice, what do

21:10

you say to them? Yeah, you know, for

21:13

women or anybody who is trying

21:15

to break into a world where there

21:17

are not many of them, they're underrepresented.

21:19

You sort of have this initial hurdle

21:23

of getting people to look past

21:25

and see past the

21:28

very obvious difference that they see.

21:30

Right, we all have We're humans, we

21:32

have patterns, We have stereotypes

21:34

in our brains about who should

21:37

or should not be in certain positions

21:39

or roles or jobs, and we

21:42

act on that. And for someone

21:45

who looks different and sounds different, they

21:47

have to get past it. So one

21:49

of the big advice I have not just for

21:52

people who are trying to break through, but it's hopefully

21:54

helpful to everyone, is

21:57

instead of focusing a lot of energy on

21:59

trying to figure out how to overcome

22:02

your weaknesses, spend

22:04

the extra amount of energy in

22:07

finding out what your particular

22:09

strength or superpower is and

22:12

work on enhancing it, because

22:14

that is what gives you the

22:16

advantage and the edge, and it makes

22:18

you stand out and have people look

22:21

past the fact that you're a woman

22:23

or a woman of color or whatever it is,

22:26

and focus on this

22:28

other thing that's relevant for the business.

22:31

Early on, I realized my

22:34

superpower in some ways is memory.

22:37

I have a very good memory, and

22:39

I can retain and sort

22:41

of extract random bits

22:43

of facts and data and numbers,

22:46

and it gave me a real advantage

22:48

when I was in groups. I would remember

22:51

things we've tried before. I'd be able to

22:53

get patterns and come up

22:56

with solutions more quickly.

22:59

And I realize, is that's what gave

23:01

me the edge and the advantage,

23:03

and had people sort of set up and

23:05

notice this particular thing that I

23:07

brought. And so I decided,

23:10

Okay, this is going to be a thing that I'm

23:12

going to work very hard on preserving

23:14

and sharpening. And so it's been

23:17

well over a decade that I've never taken

23:20

notes ever, so I don't

23:22

write anything down. I forced myself

23:24

to remember everything and retrieve

23:27

it from memory, which keeps me sort of sharper

23:29

on that front. Wow. Sure, I thought I had a

23:32

pretty good memory, but I write things down to help

23:34

groove it into my memory. I think I

23:36

now need to practice, I guess,

23:38

being a more active listener

23:41

and mental catalog er. That's

23:43

just extraordinary. We

23:45

spoke earlier about kind of the statistic

23:48

that we still haven't broken

23:50

ten percent of fortune five hundred

23:52

CEOs being women. Is it that

23:55

statistic or is there another statistic

23:57

that particularly empowers

23:59

you or maybe enrageous

24:01

slash inspires you to

24:04

keep doing what you're doing, but

24:06

also to keep supporting other women in

24:08

business. The biggest

24:10

run for me is actually girls

24:13

in computer science and technology.

24:16

In the seventies, as more and more

24:18

women started going to college and getting

24:20

degrees, every degree from

24:22

life sciences, business, law, computer

24:25

science was going up, and

24:27

most of the other fields except computer

24:29

science edged up very close to

24:31

that forty forty five fifty percent

24:34

by early eighties. In

24:36

nineteen eighty four, the

24:39

percentage of college graduates

24:41

that were computer science degrees that were girls

24:44

was around thirty seven percent.

24:46

I think so, But then it started

24:48

dropping and it fell all the

24:50

way to eighteen to twenty percent, and

24:53

it's been in that zone for

24:55

a long time, and there's

24:57

probably many reasons, but the fundamental

25:00

reason for that particular inflection

25:02

point in nineteen eighty four is the

25:04

popularity of PCs,

25:07

which were initially introduced

25:09

for video gaming, and

25:12

they were mostly used by boys.

25:14

Parents bought them for their sons, and

25:17

they, obviously, by the time they got to college,

25:19

had a real advantage and headstart

25:22

in programming and computers in

25:24

general, and girls found themselves

25:27

falling behind and hence more insecure.

25:30

And then this led to this whole social

25:33

programming of girls are

25:35

not good in computer science, and

25:37

it's now led to this place where

25:40

only about twenty percent of computer science

25:43

graduates in the US are girls. And

25:45

here we are much of our lives,

25:47

almost every part of our life

25:50

is now dominated by technology

25:52

and computer science, and we

25:55

have still a very small

25:57

percentage of women coming

26:00

into this field. People keep complaining

26:02

about not having tech

26:04

leaders who are women, but that's

26:06

the reason we've had two decades

26:09

of underrepresentation in this

26:11

field. And I'm hoping

26:14

I am seeing anecdotal evidence that

26:16

more and more girls are getting interested

26:19

in this area. I keep telling

26:21

young girls teenagers in particular. I

26:24

don't understand why you can do it. It It has the most

26:26

flexibility. You can join any industry

26:28

you want. It is one of the highest paid

26:30

jobs you will get. It is such

26:32

a fantastic job for girls,

26:35

and it actually plays to the web thinking

26:37

we naturally always do. You know, We're always

26:39

doing this if then else in our heads

26:42

all the time, and we're very good at it. And

26:45

my real hope is that trend changes

26:47

and we are much more normalized, because

26:49

at the end of the day, we do want

26:52

women to be influencing these technologies

26:54

of the future, especially

26:56

as we navigate all the questions that you've

26:59

spoke about earlier, how we think about privacy

27:01

and safety, especially

27:03

for women. Well, Sara, you'll be happy to know

27:05

my parents actually gave me a computer. Will Santa gave

27:07

me a computer in nineteen eighty seven.

27:10

Math games and Carmen San Diego

27:13

were my great passions

27:15

as a child or my computer and I'm so

27:18

thankful that they did bring technology

27:20

into my life when I was quite little. And

27:22

I'm very grateful for your time today, Shara. Thank you

27:24

so much for the conversation and thanks

27:27

for making me your first podcast. It was my pleasure,

27:29

Chelsea, it was so fun. You

27:35

can find shar Dubey on Twitter at

27:38

underscore shar Dubai. In

27:43

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