0:00

Hi,

0:07

I'm Chelsea Clinton. And this season on in

0:10

fact, we're celebrating Women's History Month.

0:13

I'll be talking with trailblazing women across

0:15

a variety of industries about their

0:17

personal journeys, the progress

0:19

women have made, and how far we

0:21

still have to go. Today.

0:26

It's my great honor to be discussing women in

0:28

public service with someone who was accomplished many

0:31

firsts in her career, Wisconsin

0:33

Senator Tammy Baldwin. It

0:35

can be easy to forget how recently women

0:38

were barely visible at the highest levels

0:40

of our government. Just thirty

0:42

years ago was dubbed

0:44

quote the Year of the Woman for

0:46

the record breaking number of women elected

0:49

to Congress. And how many was that? Twenty

0:52

four representatives out of four hundred

0:54

and thirty five and four senators

0:56

out of a hundred, which brought the total

0:59

number of women in the Senate to seven.

1:01

That was record breaking. Granted,

1:05

we've made some progress since then. Women

1:07

now make up of the House and nearly

1:11

of the Senate. That's a far cry

1:13

from equal representation. Plus,

1:16

seventeen states have never had a woman senator,

1:18

nineteen have never had a woman governor.

1:21

Many congressional districts have never been represented

1:23

by a woman. Many cities have never

1:25

had a woman mayor, and out of the forty

1:27

five people who served as president, not a

1:30

single one has been a woman. Many

1:33

voters still have a hard time imagining a woman

1:35

in public office, and that's just one

1:37

barrier women running for office space.

1:40

They're also explicit and implicit sexist

1:42

attacks, and as multiple studies

1:44

have shown, the media cover women

1:47

candidates differently than their male counterparts,

1:49

something we've certainly seen in my family,

1:51

and it's equally baneful when I see it happened

1:54

to anyone anywhere and

1:56

when in office, women historically

1:59

have been excluded, sometimes officially,

2:01

from the dinners, country clubs, and

2:03

back rooms where their male counterparts broker

2:06

and execute power. And

2:08

yet record numbers of women are running

2:10

for office at every level. So

2:13

while there are many glass ceilings yet

2:15

to be broken, I'm happy to say

2:17

my guest today has shattered quite a few.

2:21

When Tammy Baldwin was elected to the House in she

2:24

became Wisconsin's first female member of

2:26

Congress and the first openly LGBTQ

2:29

person to run for and win a

2:31

Congressional seat. Then she

2:35

became the state's first female Senator and

2:37

the first openly lgbt Q member

2:39

of the Senate. She was re elected

2:41

in with more than fifty of

2:43

the vote, a rarity and a

2:46

state used to raise her thin margins.

2:49

Throughout her career, she's championed reforms

2:51

in healthcare, including mental health,

2:53

and infrastructure, manufacturing, and

2:55

education. And she's proved little

2:57

girls and little boys alike that women

3:00

and members of the LGBTQ community

3:02

more than belong in every level

3:04

of government. Center

3:12

but one, thank you for your time today. I'm

3:14

really excited for a conversation about

3:17

women in public service. And

3:20

you're someone I've just so

3:22

long admired and so thankful

3:24

to have you in conversation today. It

3:27

might just be a good place to start at the beginning,

3:29

and if you could share what drew

3:31

you to public service, and is

3:33

this where you'd always imagined you would wind up.

3:36

I'll start with the second question and

3:38

the answer is no. But then I'll journey

3:41

backwards and and take you to

3:43

how it did happen. I think there's sort

3:46

of two major motivating

3:48

factors for me. One was just

3:51

a life experience. When I was

3:53

nine, I had a very serious childhood

3:56

illness. I was raised by my maternal

3:58

grandparents, and I had to be

4:00

hospitalized for your listeners.

4:03

I would describe it as similar

4:05

to spinal meningitis, but that wasn't

4:07

the exact diagnosis. And

4:10

so I was in the hospital and

4:13

then fully recovered, and my grandmother

4:15

visited me every day, and they

4:18

would have never dreamed of burdening

4:20

me as a child with their

4:22

insurance or financial worries,

4:25

but as family lare goes,

4:27

their family insurance didn't cover

4:29

me because I wasn't a dependent. I was a

4:31

grandchild, not a child legally,

4:34

And then they weren't able

4:36

to find insurance that would

4:38

cover me after I was fully

4:40

recovered, and so I spent a

4:43

lot of my youth without insurance

4:45

until I was actually in college and could get

4:47

into a group plan because I

4:49

was viewed as unensurable. Actuaries

4:52

would look at my serious illness and long

4:54

term hospitalizations say we don't want to touch her

4:56

with a ten foot pole, and so

4:59

that, and then witnessing other

5:02

health care struggles that other families

5:04

had really created

5:06

a passion for wanting to change

5:08

that. I just felt what happened in our family's

5:10

situation was wrong and it needed to be

5:12

changed. The other youthful

5:16

experience for me was more exposing

5:19

myself to the idea

5:21

of elective office as

5:25

a place where change could

5:27

occur and this sort of

5:29

wrong could be right it if

5:31

you will. And so that

5:33

was middle school student council, I

5:36

really believe it or not. So what

5:39

role did you have on your middle school student

5:41

council? I was on the student council

5:43

and then the student government

5:46

vice president, and we took

5:48

on all these projects that made

5:51

me realize, as a very young person that

5:53

we could make a difference collectively and individually.

5:56

So it's trite, but I'll give you a couple of examples.

5:59

I think the college expression for

6:01

this is town gown issues. But

6:04

we wondered how the neighbors of our middle

6:06

school experienced being neighbors

6:08

to a middle school, and so we surveyed

6:10

them and what did you find? Well,

6:13

we found that the fact that there was no muffler

6:15

on the industrial arts or exchanger

6:18

really annoyed a woman whose

6:20

house was adjacent to that.

6:23

We had another person who had

6:25

a corner lot and kids

6:27

would cut the corner instead of sticking to the sidewalk

6:29

and damage her tulips, et cetera.

6:32

There was one area where houses backed

6:35

up to a sidewalk that approached the school, and

6:37

some of the older middle schoolers would

6:39

smoke during recess.

6:41

And so what did you do? Which of these

6:44

did you think merited your attention, and

6:46

what did you do to try to help your school? We

6:48

fixed all of it. You fixed all of it. So

6:51

we um lobbied the school board

6:53

to say, we need a muffler for this

6:55

er exchanger. We then

6:58

found some fairly inexpens of

7:00

knee high fencing to put

7:03

at the corner so you could still

7:06

walk over it, but you'd have to be making a

7:08

big effort to trample over the

7:10

tulips, a conscious choice to be a tulip

7:12

destroyer. Yeah, And then we

7:14

had a monitor who had a steep

7:17

decrease in the smoking activity, let's

7:20

put it that way. But in any event, then

7:22

we invited everybody in the neighborhood to come

7:24

over for cookies and milk

7:26

or something after school one day

7:29

and just sort of said we're here and keep in communication.

7:32

So that was one example, and then the other one.

7:34

Our city, Madison, had

7:36

a sister city relationship

7:38

with Managua, Nicaragua,

7:41

and I think during my middle school

7:43

years there was a natural disaster and

7:46

so we raised money

7:48

for a school to be able

7:50

to replace damaged books

7:52

and other things through a

7:54

fundraising activity, and then I remember

7:57

getting thank you notes in Spanish

7:59

for um the students at the school, just

8:02

expressing their appreciation that children

8:04

so far away cared

8:07

and did something and it felt good.

8:09

And I never really occurred to me as a middle

8:12

schooler that I could do this

8:14

like as a career, but

8:17

when I kind of figured that out, it

8:19

was just amazing. And

8:22

yet, when you were in middle school, Tammy, there

8:24

weren't many women in visible

8:27

elected offices. I mean not not

8:30

in Madison, but not in most places.

8:32

Were you aware of that as a kid that,

8:35

like, you may want to have

8:37

this career, but there weren't

8:40

a lot of people that look like you. I think

8:42

I was very aware of that, but also

8:45

aware of some of those, at

8:47

least local glass ceilings

8:49

being chattered. I remember

8:51

one of the first, well

8:54

two of the first women to

8:56

serve in the state legislature in

8:59

my area were considered pioneers,

9:03

and boy did they champion things

9:05

that impacted women. So I was

9:07

a little bit aware of that. And

9:10

I also will add that I ended up after

9:12

high school attending a women's college

9:15

Smith College in Northampton, Massachusetts,

9:18

where at that age every

9:20

leadership position on campus was

9:22

helped by a woman. And a

9:25

strange fact about me, but I was a double major

9:27

in government and math.

9:30

And at the time, nationally

9:33

one percent of math

9:35

faculty were women, but at

9:37

Smith College, fifty of

9:40

the math faculty were women. Not

9:42

a butift and so

9:44

I think some of those experiences

9:46

helped increase confidence that

9:48

I could do this job. And did you have any

9:51

women public servants, politicians

9:53

as mentors who really helped

9:55

you decide to run for

9:58

office for the first time and then and towards

10:00

you while you were in office. Yes, my

10:02

first job out of college

10:05

my return to my hometown of Madison, I

10:07

did an internship at the Governor's

10:09

office with the governor's advisor

10:11

on women's issues. And

10:14

it was at a time when the state was

10:16

undertaking a pay

10:18

equity study of the state,

10:20

because we already had equal pay for equal

10:23

work laws, but we didn't

10:26

have laws that helped

10:29

close the gap when you're talking about

10:31

a female dominated profession,

10:34

where within that profession there's going to be equal

10:36

pay for equal work, but

10:38

compared to a male dominated

10:40

profession, there was going to be a pay

10:43

gap. So this would be in the mid

10:45

nineteen eighties, so you would have

10:47

teachers and nurses

10:50

who were usually public employees, or

10:52

meant not usually, but many of them were. But

10:54

then you would have in say the

10:56

parks and recreation, highway

10:59

divisions, etcetera. Now

11:02

there's a big pay gap between those

11:04

male and female dominated professions.

11:07

But how do you compare them to figure

11:09

out what piece of that

11:12

differential is gender inequity?

11:15

Yeah, and we figured out a methodology

11:18

to do it. That's where the being a math major helps.

11:22

You can look at, you know, what is

11:25

the consequence of making

11:27

a mistake on the job. It's a nurse, somebody might

11:29

die. If it's a pilot, somebody might die if

11:32

it's making a mistake, and other professionals

11:34

kind of have a lot lower risks. You can look

11:36

at how many people do you supervise, what is

11:38

the educational background required

11:40

in order to be certified? You know,

11:43

to do this so you can look at all these comparables

11:45

and figure out what remains

11:47

that can only be explained by gender inequities.

11:50

So you did this work and you're like, oh, I

11:52

can use my math in government.

11:55

Yeah. And then at the same time, the

11:58

city and the county were

12:01

beginning to look at their own workforces

12:03

figuring out the same things. And

12:06

I started monitoring their

12:08

meetings as they were having these debates

12:10

on pay equity, which is

12:12

a ridiculously nerdy thing to do. I

12:15

didn't have cable TV at home, so I just would go

12:17

and sit in the public gallery.

12:20

I think one of the county board supervisors thought

12:22

I was a reporter, and

12:25

at some point I listened to their debate and

12:27

thought, I'm as smart as anybody

12:29

in this room. And so

12:32

after my gap year and I started

12:34

law school, and then in my first semester,

12:36

my county board supervisor said she was retiring.

12:39

And you know, at one of my law school

12:41

classes as a small group class, and the rest of

12:43

them were big lectures. So I went up to my small

12:46

group professor, who kind of as

12:48

a mentor. He looked at me really sternly,

12:50

and he said, you know, miss Baldwin,

12:53

if you really applied yourself, you could be

12:55

a great lawyer. And

12:57

then a twinkle burst into his twinkle

13:00

in his eyes, and he said, but if you insist on

13:02

this political thing, you'll have my full support. So

13:05

he was one of my supporters

13:07

and encouragers, and you know, I was able

13:09

to start writing laws at the same time I was studying

13:11

them. It was so amazing, much

13:14

to the chagrin of the corporation Council,

13:16

who's supposed to do the drafting of all the ordinance

13:19

amendments for the county, and I would come in with

13:21

my legal notepad and you know, section

13:23

whatever should be amended. He's like, that's my job.

13:26

I learned so much there. But the women on

13:28

the county board, many of whom had

13:30

been on the county board for a long time, really

13:33

became mentors. And when

13:35

the next opportunity opened up, which

13:38

was stated Assembly, oh

13:40

boy, I just had this team ready

13:42

to ready to help. It's such

13:44

an amazing story, I think because

13:46

there's clearly this through line from middle school

13:48

to today. And I wanted to be

13:50

on the county board because they back then

13:53

it's no longer the case in Wisconsin, but they

13:55

worked on healthcare policies. They had

13:57

a program for indigent individual

14:00

rules who didn't have health insurance

14:02

that would help in the event of a hospitalization.

14:05

But I found so many inequities in that

14:07

program that I was really able to work on

14:09

health care policy as a County Board supervisor.

14:13

So back to the second question where

14:15

I said, no, I couldn't have imagined

14:18

that I would be in the U. S. Senate when I

14:20

was in middle school or whatever, although

14:22

some of my college friends would tell you otherwise.

14:24

But I don't remember having that

14:27

path in my mind. But these opportunities

14:30

to have a greater reach have

14:32

been extraordinary. We'll

14:36

be right back to stay with us. When

14:49

you were elected to Congress from Wisconsin

14:52

and you were the first woman

14:55

to be a representative from

14:57

the whole state of Wisconsin. Yeah, earlier

14:59

that yor, we had celebrated the state's

15:02

Sesqui centennial. Try that

15:04

five times past. Okay. I remember when we celebrated

15:07

Arkansas Sessuis centennial when I was a little

15:09

girl, and I actually remember repeating

15:11

the word over and over and over again

15:14

until I could finally pronounce it correctly.

15:17

That's right. So we had statehood in

15:19

eighteen forty eight, and I ran

15:22

for and won the House

15:24

seat in nine the

15:27

year of Wisconsin sessquiest centennial.

15:30

I remember a couple of things vividly about

15:32

that juxtaposition. You know, it took us a hundred

15:34

and fifty years to elect our first

15:36

woman to Congress. But I also remember

15:39

attending a celebratory event

15:41

on the day of our Susquo

15:44

Centennial at the old Territorial

15:47

Capital, which is not in Madison,

15:49

and we were asked to come in period

15:52

costume. What did you dress up?

15:54

Though, well, there would not have been

15:56

any women in the state legislatures as

15:59

it convened in eighteen forty eight.

16:01

But I remember doing a radio interview from

16:03

the area and saying, you'll have to

16:05

wait while I removed my bonnet. That

16:09

was a first for radio. And did

16:11

you feel any additional

16:13

pressure either in that race

16:16

or when you got to Congress because you were now

16:18

the first? That's interesting,

16:21

you know, I've been a first in

16:23

several areas of the first out

16:26

lgbt Q member of

16:29

the Senate, and certainly in

16:31

terms of the House, I was the first non incumbent

16:34

out person to get elected. Everyone

16:36

else who had been out in the House before had

16:38

come out in office. You know, until

16:41

it's done, people haven't been done

16:43

right, it's never been done. It's never been done,

16:45

and it can be done. And so I remember

16:48

the pressure of of that.

16:50

There's a lot of well meaning

16:52

friends who said, don't know if the voters are ready,

16:55

we really need the seat in my

16:57

house seat. It was a pick up from a moderate

16:59

Republican who had retired. You know, might

17:02

have not been the first choice of

17:05

those who were recruiting candidates,

17:07

but yet we showed it could be done. I

17:09

think the other thing, both as a woman and

17:12

as a member of the LGBTQ community,

17:15

is the way you interact with the media.

17:18

So even when I was running for the state

17:20

legislature, which the

17:22

year of the woman in politics, do you

17:24

remember, I definitely remember, people

17:27

would ask me, you know, what is your woman's agenda?

17:29

What is your gay agenda? And

17:31

I would quickly remind folks that I

17:33

was running to represent everybody in

17:36

the district that I would represent, and

17:38

that I had all people's concerns

17:41

and challenges in my mind, and

17:44

that it's important to elect women. We would

17:46

bring our life experiences with us to the job

17:48

and it informs what we do. But

17:51

I am running for the opportunity to represent

17:53

everyone. I want to speak to the top issues

17:55

of concern, including health care, which has

17:57

always been a top issue of concern among my

18:00

instituency. And I kept

18:02

getting asked over and over again, and what I realized

18:04

Finally, that was a little bit empowering. Is

18:07

at least at the local level. You

18:09

have the same reporters from the local

18:11

media covering the race from

18:13

the beginning to the end. And I would have the opportunity

18:16

to say, you know, you can, you can write you know, kind of

18:18

woman win, kind of lgbt person,

18:21

you know win. But you only get to write

18:23

it once it's newsworthy. But you can't

18:25

write it every time you're covering my

18:27

candidacy and the other candidates

18:29

in the race. That was a challenge

18:32

in all my races. And do you think

18:35

that challenge has gotten better

18:37

or worse for you and other women

18:40

and out LGBTQ candidates

18:42

who are running for public office. I'm a

18:44

numbers person as a math major. As

18:47

the numbers grow, it becomes less

18:49

and less of an issue. Sometimes

18:51

you try and you don't succeed. Sometimes

18:53

you try again and you do. But the more and

18:55

more people can look and see

18:58

somebody like themselves, the more and

19:00

more of those barriers come down. So

19:02

no one can say after

19:05

an election and re election to the US Senate,

19:07

where I won my re

19:09

election race with just shy of

19:11

eleven percentage points in Wisconsin,

19:14

that doesn't decide any races with more than

19:16

one right one percentage

19:18

point. It seems no one can

19:20

say it can't be done right. It's been done

19:22

twice. Yes, wow. And

19:26

I do wonder though, for young

19:29

people in the LGBTQ community who have

19:31

lived through, you know, not just watch, but lived

19:34

through the last handful of years

19:36

in which there often has been quite pointed

19:39

an ugly rhetoric about women and

19:41

about members of the LGBTQ community, including

19:44

from the last administration, kind of amplified

19:46

from the White House, originating sometimes from

19:48

the White House. How the conversations

19:51

I know you must have had with young people thinking about running

19:53

for office changed. Well.

19:56

I think that there was a view

19:59

during the years prior to the

20:02

Trump administration, a view

20:04

and a reality that a lot of progress had

20:06

been made, both through administrative

20:09

actions and through passage

20:12

of laws. And I

20:14

think I find among

20:17

women I know, and among members of

20:19

the LGBTQ community that we can't

20:21

take that progress for granted, and

20:24

we can't take progress as victory.

20:26

And so as hard

20:30

as those years have

20:32

been, those Trump years and the

20:35

legacy of what's been stirred up,

20:37

I think for some it has

20:39

shown that it's even more important than ever

20:42

to get out there and defend

20:46

the progress that has been made and

20:49

seek to make more. And that's

20:52

been inspiring and the

20:55

honor that I have to be able to

20:57

It's often referred to a symbolism,

21:00

but it is so important

21:02

for a young person to be able to look

21:05

and say, I didn't think I

21:07

might be able to achieve my goals or

21:11

even should strive for them, and

21:14

this gives me hope that I can. And

21:17

when you hear somebody come back to you with that

21:19

story, boy, it's an amazing,

21:22

amazing opportunity. But it sounds

21:24

like you're optimistic even

21:26

after the last years

21:28

in which gender and race

21:32

and religion and sex identity

21:34

and so much else was often weaponized

21:37

by the right, arguably of backlash

21:39

to the progress that had been made. That

21:42

young people are still stepping forward and running

21:44

for county boards and state

21:46

legislatures and school boards as

21:49

well as to be your colleague

21:51

in Washington. It is happening,

21:54

and that's very inspiring. But I will

21:56

also say, as hopeful a

21:58

person as I am, I share

22:01

in so many people's fears

22:03

and concerns about where we are as a nation

22:05

right now, and for our very democracy,

22:08

So we have to redouble our efforts. We have

22:10

to we're

22:14

taking a quick break. Stay with us.

22:27

We've talked so much already in this

22:29

conversation about your health care experience

22:32

as being one of the reasons why you wanted

22:34

to go into and why you've stayed in public service.

22:37

And you know, here we are now more than two years

22:39

into COVID nineteen, and

22:41

I wonder if you could just share what

22:44

you've been working on that relates to the pandemic. What would

22:46

you like people to know about what you're working

22:48

on? Let me mention a few. I want

22:50

to just put a bookmark on one.

22:53

I think very proud achievement. When I was in the

22:55

House on healthcare, very

22:58

much informed by my family story

23:00

and so many others. When I served

23:03

on one of the committees that put together elements

23:05

of the Affordable Care Act, I sponsored

23:07

the amendment that allows young people

23:09

to stay on their parents health insurance until

23:11

their twenty six and I

23:14

knew that that was the most

23:17

uninsured age group age range.

23:19

There's all sorts of other indicators of

23:21

how likely you are to be uninsured,

23:24

relating to race, relating

23:26

to income, etcetera. But if you look

23:28

at just age demographics high school

23:30

to mid twenties. People tend

23:33

to be uninsured and that changed

23:35

overnight thanks to you. Yeah,

23:37

but I was so proud of that, and it was

23:39

so anticlimactic. It happened like

23:42

at two am, we finally had the votes on the

23:44

committee to get it through. Did you call anyone

23:46

at two am? Did you call like a friend or

23:49

family member? You're like, who do I call? To celebrate?

23:52

It's two am. Henry Waxmon was chair

23:54

of the committee, and I was like, I'm

23:57

ready to give my speech about my amend basic

23:59

you're not giving a speech. And your amendment it's in

24:01

the manager's amendment. We're voting on it, we're getting

24:03

it out. We've got to do this. That was the magic

24:06

moment, so so anti climactic, but I

24:08

just remember years later, especially

24:10

when I'm visiting college campuses, I

24:12

would say, raise your hand if

24:15

you're on your parents health insurance, and

24:18

almost every hand would go up, And

24:20

that made up for all the anti clapmactic

24:22

nature of what was happening in the committee

24:24

room at two am. This was like, oh

24:27

my god. So today, Wisconsin

24:29

sadly is one of those states that has never expanded

24:32

Medicaid under the Affordable

24:34

Care Act, and so I'm joining with

24:37

our two New Georgia senators,

24:39

who also represent a state that has never expanded

24:42

Medicaid, to try to create

24:44

a direct federal program

24:47

in order to allow those

24:50

very low income individuals to have

24:53

the sort of comprehensive insurance benefits

24:55

you would have if you lived in a state that had expanded

24:58

Medicaid. And that is pandemic

25:01

related, but it would outlast the pandemic

25:03

in terms of its importance. We've

25:06

always had health disparities based on a number

25:08

of different factors, as I just mentioned, but they

25:11

were just brought to everybody's

25:13

attention during the pandemic in

25:16

very visible and powerful

25:18

ways. And I

25:21

think that we can't let this moment

25:23

of recognition pass

25:26

without addressing it in a robust way.

25:29

That would be one example. But I'll

25:31

tell you I'm still working on a lot of healthcare

25:34

related issues because there's just always

25:36

so much more to do. Yes, I

25:39

do want to ask, especially because your

25:41

math major, if there is one statistic

25:43

about women in politics that either

25:46

really continues to inspire

25:49

you directly or maybe enrages

25:52

you and then inspires you through

25:54

that anger to try to ensure that there

25:56

are more women in more

25:59

physicians of power to do more

26:01

good for more people and more places across our country.

26:04

There's a lot, but let me you said

26:06

one, Well, it can be more than one. Right

26:09

now, I'm thinking a lot about the Supreme

26:11

Court, and I believe

26:14

that there have been a hundred and fifteen

26:16

justices since the beginning

26:19

of the Supreme Court, and

26:22

five of those have

26:26

been women. Zero percent have

26:28

been black women. And

26:31

uh, I'm both angered

26:33

and frustrated by that, but

26:36

also inspired that it might change,

26:38

and it might change very soon. Yes,

26:42

and I have been aghast

26:44

at the volume of rhetoric emerging from people

26:48

that it somehow isn't important

26:50

to actually have a black women

26:53

justice on the Supreme Court, when clearly

26:56

it is, and there are certainly many,

26:58

many, many black women. You are incredibly

27:00

qualified to sit on that bench. I

27:03

go back to that thought of nobody

27:06

checks their life experience at the

27:08

door when they enter a room, like

27:11

it was a co check. Here. My life experience

27:13

stays out there then I walk into the room. It's

27:17

always with us and it informs

27:19

our approach to all the things

27:21

we do in our work, and it's

27:24

why it's so important that we have a

27:27

much more reflective set

27:29

of life experiences and greater

27:32

diversity in all of our governmental

27:35

institutions as well as not

27:37

deffermental institutions for that matter.

27:40

You have so often been the first

27:43

in so many ways a local, state,

27:45

national level. What do you think we need

27:47

to do to ensure that the first

27:50

in anyway is not the only. I

27:52

think that's gradually happening. One

27:54

might be the only for a while, but

27:57

hopefully that time is what

28:00

is it More's law and computing right,

28:03

the half life of that is getting shorter and shorter.

28:05

So I was only in the Senate for six

28:08

years before there were two, and

28:11

so who knows what happens next. But if

28:13

you don't try it, it never happens. When

28:16

you try it and you succeed, there's

28:18

one. And then once

28:20

that glass ceiling is broken,

28:22

we make change. We make change. Hopefully

28:25

then we preserve the change that's

28:27

right, and don't get

28:30

complacent about

28:32

the progress, and don't mistake progress for success.

28:35

Senator, thank you so much for everything,

28:37

including your time today. Thank you so much.

28:39

This has been a pure delight speaking

28:42

with you. You

28:45

can keep up with Senator Baldwin on Twitter at

28:47

Tammy Baldwin or on Instagram at

28:49

Senator Baldwin. In

28:54

Fact is brought to you by I Heart Radio. We

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and an amazing man, Erica

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