0:02

This is the In Focus Podcast from

0:04

the Hindu. The

0:30

whole of Gaza is on the brink

0:32

of famine. Earlier, there

0:34

was an air of optimism when

0:36

Hamas announced that it had accepted

0:39

a three-phase ceasefire proposal broken by

0:41

Qatar and Egypt and Israel

0:43

even sent a delegation to Cairo to discuss

0:45

this further. But in

0:47

the interim, during this week, Israel has

0:50

launched strikes on the city of Rafa

0:52

in southern Gaza Strip and taken over

0:54

the border crossing there. It

0:56

was critical for sending humanitarian aid to

0:58

Gaza. Meanwhile, President Biden

1:01

has paused a major shipment of

1:03

bombs headed for Israel, signaling

1:05

that US weapons should not be

1:08

used to target Palestinian civilians. So

1:11

what are the details of the ceasefire

1:13

proposal that Hamas has accepted but Israel

1:15

hasn't? Is the

1:17

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu serious

1:19

at all about the ceasefire negotiations

1:22

or has he merely been using it

1:24

as a cover to prepare for the

1:26

Rafa operation as is being alleged by

1:29

Hamas? And with

1:31

international public opinion mounting against

1:33

the continued Israeli assault, has

1:36

there been any shift in Washington's

1:38

position? We discuss all these

1:41

questions in detail in this episode of

1:43

In Focus and we are joined by

1:45

Stanley Jony, the Hindu's International Affairs Editor.

1:47

Stanley, thank you so much for

1:49

joining us and welcome back to In Focus. Thank

1:52

you, Sambat. Ceasefire

2:00

proposal brokered by Qatar and Egypt

2:03

that Hamas has accepted but Israel has it.

2:05

How did they even make it public when

2:08

one side hasn't really accepted it? Yeah,

2:12

the fine details

2:15

of this proposal

2:17

are still not officially released basically.

2:21

But you know, there were extensive

2:24

reports in the Arab media, especially in

2:26

the Egyptian and Saudi media. And

2:29

the Wall Street Journal had also run a story saying

2:31

that they reviewed the discussion points that

2:36

were taken up by all the sides in Cairo

2:38

and the Cairo talks. So

2:41

we have a vague idea of what

2:43

this three-phase ceasefire proposal

2:45

is from these reports. So

2:48

in the first phase, Hamas

2:51

is expected to release some

2:53

33 to 38 refugees, I

2:55

think 33. The United States was

2:57

40 but then came down to 33. And

3:02

then the Israelis would release

3:05

Palestinian prisoners many more times. I

3:07

don't have the exact number, but

3:10

it's roughly what they discussed was

3:12

four Palestinian prisoners for one hostage.

3:16

So maybe 120 plus Palestinian

3:18

prisoners. And then there would

3:20

also be a six-week

3:23

ceasefire. So

3:26

this is the initial proposal. This

3:28

is the first phase of the ceasefire

3:30

proposal. And in the second phase,

3:33

Hamas would release all the living hostages.

3:36

And the Israelis would free more Palestinian

3:38

prisoners. And the ceasefire

3:40

would be extended for another six to eight

3:42

weeks. But

3:45

then the third phase comes. I think the

3:47

major problem, major disagreements are there in the

3:49

third phase because in the third phase, Hamas

3:52

is expected to release the

3:54

bodies of all hostages

3:56

who were killed either on October 7 or

3:58

in the subsequent days. Israel

4:02

has to end. What Hamas demands is

4:04

that Israel has to agree

4:06

to a comprehensive lasting

4:08

hisfire in

4:11

the third phase, not just extension of the

4:13

hisfire for a few more weeks. Hamas also

4:16

demands Israel withdraw completely from

4:19

the Gaza Strip. As of now,

4:21

if you look at Gaza, recently

4:24

Israel sent troops to the Rafa border,

4:27

but then that is a limited number

4:29

of Israeli forces. But then

4:31

at least two Israeli brigades have been

4:34

deployed in Central and Northern Gaza. So

4:36

Northern Gaza, which encompasses

4:39

Gaza City, which was

4:41

the most populous city

4:43

in Gaza, is

4:45

now a coastland. And

4:48

Israeli troops have been deployed there. And

4:51

IDF still identifies Northern Gaza

4:53

as a war zone. So

4:55

effectively, Israel has now carved up

4:57

a no-match land between

5:00

Southern Gaza and the Israeli border.

5:02

So the entire Northern Gaza is

5:04

now controlled by the Israeli military.

5:07

So Hamas says that Israel has to withdraw

5:09

from the entire Gaza Strip. So

5:12

whether Israel actually plans to withdraw

5:14

from the Gaza Strip or Israel

5:16

is planning to use Northern Gaza

5:18

as a buffer between

5:20

the Gaza population who

5:22

are now living in,

5:24

you know, crammed into Southern Gaza and

5:27

Israel proper, which we don't know. So

5:29

I think the major disagreements are there

5:31

in the third phase. So

5:34

when Hamas says it accepted this

5:36

proposal, I think what Hamas means

5:38

is that it is ready to release 33

5:40

hostages in the first phase, it is ready

5:43

to release all the living hostages in the

5:45

second phase, and it is ready to release

5:47

the mortal remains of the hostages, but

5:50

only if there is a

5:52

comprehensive ceasefire agreement and Israel agrees

5:54

to withdraw from the whole of

5:57

Gaza Strip. But Netanyahu is not ready to

5:59

accept it. this. Right,

6:02

so anyway even if let us

6:04

say if Hamas were to agree

6:06

to release the remains of the

6:09

dead hostages and all the

6:11

living hostages, why would they

6:13

do that and give up all their

6:15

leverage if they are going to again

6:18

be back in square when have Israelis

6:20

attacks and Gaza strip again, I mean

6:22

without a comprehensive ceasefire and withdrawal, how

6:25

is there anything on the table for Hamas here? Exactly,

6:29

that is a logical question

6:32

but on the other side what the Israelis are trying

6:34

to say is that if they withdraw

6:36

from Gaza for

6:39

the release of the hostages and

6:41

if they bring the war to an end, they

6:43

are not meeting their objectives and

6:45

they had set these twin

6:47

objectives of releasing the hostages

6:49

and destroying Hamas and seven

6:52

months after the war they haven't met either of

6:54

the two and the third objective which is an

6:56

indirect objective is to bolster Israel's deterrence, they

6:58

are far from that. In fact, Israel's

7:00

deterrence, you know, we all know that

7:02

took a chattering when

7:05

the Iranians launched the attack in April. So,

7:09

but you know to release hostages,

7:11

the Israelis and the Americans, the

7:13

Egyptians and the Qataris and everybody

7:16

now knows that the only practical

7:18

way to release the hostages

7:20

is to strike a deal with Hamas and

7:23

Hamas says that we are ready to strike

7:25

that deal but only if there is a

7:28

comprehensive agreement as you know because as you

7:30

pointed out otherwise why should Hamas release all

7:32

the hostages and then be ready

7:34

to fight the Israelis again. So,

7:37

this is, I think this is the major

7:39

stumbling block to achieve the peace but

7:41

on the other side the Israelis think that if

7:43

they accept a comprehensive ceasefire, the war comes to

7:46

an end, Hamas

7:48

would remain in Gaza. So, according

7:50

to the Israeli argument which means

7:52

Hamas would live to strike us

7:54

another day and Israel doesn't want that to

7:57

happen. So, I think this is the

7:59

major disagreement between the Israeli

8:01

position. Right.

8:03

Now, I was just

8:05

wondering, given that Israel

8:07

is keen on, basically

8:09

Israel wants to ensure the destruction of the

8:12

party it is negotiating with for a ceasefire,

8:14

to put it bluntly. Now,

8:16

in that case, how serious is

8:18

it really about the ceasefire negotiations? We were saying

8:20

you have to stop, we will have a ceasefire

8:22

and then we will come back and kill you

8:24

all. So, does Netanyahu really need

8:27

the war to go on for this

8:29

political survival at home or

8:32

will Israel agreeing to a ceasefire be perceived

8:35

as some sort of quote

8:37

unquote defeat as it were

8:39

in the domestic public opinion. Like

8:41

how serious is Israel at all

8:44

in this entire negotiation? Yeah,

8:46

it is a very complicated

8:49

situation in Israel. You know,

8:51

we do not have simple answers to this

8:53

question, but you look at the different stakeholders

8:55

in Israel to understand the situation which Israel

8:57

is in. You know, at

9:00

the end of the day, this is an elected government. This

9:02

is a far-right government, but an elected government and

9:06

the pressure is building on

9:08

the government to get the hostages

9:10

released because it has

9:12

been seven months, right? The

9:14

attack itself is a major

9:16

security failure on Mr. Netanyahu's

9:18

behalf. The Prime Minister promised

9:21

security to the whole of Israel and the

9:24

worst attack in Israel's history took place on

9:26

his watch. That's a historical fact. And

9:29

then he said that we will destroy Hamas.

9:31

We will bring them home. And

9:33

Israel has been fighting Hamas

9:36

or attacking Gaza for the last seven months.

9:39

And the war, as we have seen,

9:41

has turned up international pressure on Israel. The

9:43

state is now near total isolated. There

9:46

are problems in the relationship between

9:48

the United States and Israel as well. There

9:51

is a genocide case against Israel in the

9:53

ICJ. And there could be

9:55

arrest warrants against Netanyahu and the Israeli generals,

9:57

which is a possibility in the global

9:59

economy. south there is mounting anger

10:01

against Israel. The Arab-Israel peace

10:04

process has been demolished, at least for now.

10:07

And Americans trying to revive the

10:09

Arab-Israel peace agreement, they are basically

10:11

fighting the wind. So Israel

10:13

has suffered multiple setbacks in the last

10:15

seven months, and the hostages are

10:17

still hostages. And Hamas is

10:19

far from being destroyed. And

10:21

domestically, the pressure is mounting on the Netanyahu

10:24

government to release the hostages. And the

10:26

only practical solution to get the hostages released at

10:28

this point of time is to strike a deal

10:31

with Hamas. But Hamas, again, why

10:33

should they strike a deal with the Israelis if

10:35

the Israelis are coming back to kill them? So

10:38

there is no easy path towards a

10:40

comprehensive agreement between Hamas and Israel. So

10:42

this is a very complicated situation.

10:45

And on top of it, as you

10:48

mentioned, Mr. Netanyahu's political career

10:50

is also hanging in balance. Because

10:52

if the war comes to an end, once the death

10:54

settles, there will be questions. There will

10:57

be questions about October 7 attack. There will

10:59

be questions about the way the war is

11:01

being conducted. There will be questions

11:03

about the April 14th Iranian attack. There

11:05

will be questions about how Israel responded

11:08

to the Iranian attack and why the

11:10

Israeli response was so feeble. There

11:12

will be questions about the deteriorating relationship between

11:14

Israel and the United States, which is the

11:16

biggest security guarantor

11:18

of Israel for the last

11:21

50-70 years. So Mr. Netanyahu will

11:23

have to answer a lot of questions once the

11:25

death settles. So basically, this is

11:27

also a problem. Because if you look

11:29

at it from Netanyahu's point of view,

11:31

he faced back-to-back setbacks and failures, and

11:33

his political career is also hanging in

11:36

balance now. So there is

11:38

no easy solution here. But at the

11:40

same time, Israelis, they

11:42

keep negotiating with Hamas because

11:44

they can't afford

11:46

to shut down talks in

11:48

today's political climate in Israel.

11:50

Because even members

11:53

of Mr. Netanyahu's war cabinet,

11:55

including many GANS, are

11:57

supporting an agreement. Air

12:00

Lapid, the opposition

12:02

leader, had repeatedly blasted Netanyahu

12:04

and the Jewish terrorist, he

12:07

used the word, he used the term, Jewish

12:09

terrorist attack on the Palestinians

12:12

in the settlement colonies in the West Bank. And

12:15

he said, Netanyahu is basically

12:17

destroyed Israel's deterrence. And

12:19

Air Lapid has called for early election. Ben-Yghans

12:21

has called for early election. So

12:23

there is, you know, the political situation

12:25

in Israel is also highly complicated and

12:27

Netanyahu is facing heat from all sides.

12:29

So he has to keep negotiating. But

12:32

at the same time, he is unable to

12:34

find a solution that would

12:36

address Israel's security concerns, that

12:39

would address, that would get the

12:41

hostages released, that would also protect

12:43

his political future. And

12:45

that is a magical solution that Netanyahu is not able

12:47

to find that. Right. Now,

12:49

Stanley, you referred to the deteriorating,

12:51

or maybe not deteriorating, maybe some

12:53

friction, as I say, in the

12:55

relationship between Israel and Washington, the

12:57

United States. Now, President Biden has

12:59

paused, he has not canceled, he

13:01

has paused the shipment of bombs,

13:03

I don't know, 700 kg bombs,

13:06

which are really too big and too

13:08

powerful to be used in such a

13:10

densely populated civilian space, such as

13:12

Rafa, you know, where Israel is sort of wanting

13:15

to attack and launch a major strike. So

13:18

what is the significance of this pausing

13:20

of weapons, if not by Biden? Do

13:23

you think it will have any effect

13:25

on Israel's plans for Rafa? And why

13:27

exactly is Israel so intent on

13:29

attacking such a civilian, civilian hotspot?

13:32

You know, Rafa is where so

13:34

many thousands of refugees, you know, who already

13:36

displaced from Israel, no, again, they are being

13:38

evacuated to some other place. So

13:41

why does it actually believe that by attacking

13:43

Rafa, they will flush out the last of

13:46

the Hamas hideouts and

13:48

kill every single one of Hamas soldiers? Is

13:51

it what they actually are thinking? I

14:00

don't think there is a proper

14:03

military strategy here. Israelis

14:05

being vengeful and the

14:07

civilian casualties do not prevent them,

14:09

which is a fact because 34,900

14:11

Palestinians have already been killed.

14:16

You haven't seen any regret

14:18

on the Israeli side. Israel expressed

14:21

apology only over the bombing of

14:23

the aid

14:26

workers, foreign Western aid workers because Westerners

14:29

were killed, but about the Palestinians there is

14:31

no regret. So

14:34

the civilian hotspot

14:37

of Rafah, the fact

14:39

that 1.4 million people are living in

14:41

a small city, that would

14:43

not deter Israel from attacking Rafah.

14:45

Israel doesn't care about Palestinian civilian

14:47

lives, which is a fact. But

14:51

at the same time, operational concerns are

14:53

there because Israel's argument is that

14:57

four more Hamas battalions are there

14:59

still in Rafah. And

15:01

if Israel wants to meet its objective

15:03

of destroying Hamas, it has to attack

15:06

Rafah. Because if it

15:08

doesn't attack Rafah and strikes a deal

15:10

with Hamas, that means Hamas will survive,

15:14

including Hamas top leaders, that is

15:16

Yahya Senba and Mohammad Beif and

15:18

others. The

15:21

Israelis said immediately after October 7 that there

15:23

were death men walking, but they

15:26

are still alive. So

15:28

these are the challenges Israel is also facing. So

15:31

for Israel, if it wants to achieve

15:33

victory, it has

15:35

to attack Rafah and destroy Hamas. Otherwise,

15:38

it is not winning the war. Like Hendrik

15:41

Isinger once famously said, the guerrilla

15:43

wins the war by surviving. Otherwise,

15:48

if the guerrilla survives,

15:51

it wins the war and the bigger conventional

15:53

power loses the war. So

15:55

for Israel, Israel is actually facing defeat in

15:57

this war if it doesn't go into

15:59

Rafah. Let's say they

16:02

go into Rafa and Hamas knows

16:04

that the Israeli troops are coming.

16:06

Maybe they will evacuate themselves and

16:08

move somewhere else. They may

16:11

not be waiting for them in Rafa. Is

16:13

that a possibility or is there going to be a

16:15

finale kind of a pitched battle between the

16:17

two sides and one side wins? In

16:20

the guerrilla warfare, the guerrillas are not going to be

16:22

waiting for you and being a

16:24

target man. Yeah, that's true. I

16:27

mean, we don't know what's going to happen if

16:30

Israel attacks Rafa. The only certain

16:32

thing we know is that it would be

16:34

a bloodbath. You know, WHO has

16:36

wandered, the UN has wandered, civilian

16:39

casualties will mount because we are talking

16:41

about, you know, a small

16:44

city where 1.4 million people are

16:46

living without food, without basic amenities.

16:48

And Israel is bombing this place continuously.

16:51

And if it launches a ground invasion,

16:53

the only certain thing is

16:55

that the, you know, the casualties

16:57

will mount. But for Hamas, also Hamas

16:59

leadership, their options to evacuate themselves

17:02

is also limited at this point of

17:04

time because as we discussed earlier, Central

17:06

and Northern Gaza are

17:09

already, Central and Northern parts of Gaza

17:11

are already controlled by the Israeli military.

17:14

And now after taking over the Rafa

17:16

crossing, the Gaza side of the Rafa

17:18

crossing to Egypt, basically Israel is

17:20

now controlling all the entry and exit points

17:22

of Gaza. So, Hamas

17:25

leadership, I mean, theoretically speaking,

17:27

Yahya Senwar and

17:29

Mohammad Beif cannot escape Gaza. So,

17:32

that's what Israel wants. Israel wants to take over.

17:34

Israel has already taken over all the entry and

17:36

exit points and Israel has

17:38

pushed Hamas to one corner and

17:40

now Israel wants to attack

17:42

that corner. But the other side,

17:44

the flip side is that 1.4 million

17:47

people are also living in this place because Israel,

17:49

even in the north, the

17:51

operation Israel carried out is, you know, it's

17:53

a cost earth operation. It's not a targeted

17:55

attack on Hamas. It is a

17:57

collective punishment as Mr. Biden himself said.

18:00

It's not my words. President Biden called

18:02

it a connective punishment. He called it

18:04

an indiscriminate bombing, indiscriminate attack. So

18:06

this is Israel's way of attacking

18:08

northern Gaza, and it will be

18:10

the same in the south. So,

18:13

you know, this is from the Israeli

18:15

point of view, they want to finish off

18:17

the war, at least that's what they hope. And

18:20

to do that, to meet the objective, they need to

18:22

attack Rafa, and they

18:24

don't care about the humanitarian

18:26

cost. And they think that

18:29

they can get away with, because even if there is

18:32

friction between the United States and

18:34

Israel, the US might post. I

18:37

think that is a major decision

18:39

by the Biden administration. If you look

18:41

at Biden's policies from October 7, this

18:45

is the

18:47

boldest position President Biden has taken. Because

18:50

I think he started realizing

18:52

that this is going out of his

18:54

hands, Netanyahu is playing

18:56

him, and

18:58

the pressure is also mounting internally, so

19:00

he can't let this go on forever.

19:02

So he has taken this public position

19:05

that he is not sending offensive weapons

19:07

if Israel goes into Rafa. This also

19:09

suggests that the American assessment of a

19:11

Rafa attack is grim,

19:15

pretty grim. Right. So

19:18

you're saying that

19:21

Biden's decision to pause the shipment of weapons

19:23

in bombs could have

19:25

a deterring effect, or Netanyahu was

19:27

too hell-bent on going ahead with

19:30

his plans, regardless of whether the US supplies offensive weapons

19:32

or not. Do they need these weapons at all in

19:34

the first place? Don't they already have enough

19:36

in the bank, so we speak, to get this

19:38

Rafa part of their military

19:41

plans over with? Yeah.

19:44

So I don't know

19:46

what Mr. Netanyahu will eventually decide, because

19:49

if he doesn't attack Rafa and strikes

19:52

a deal with Hamas, there

19:55

is a possibility that Ben

19:57

Guevara and Smatovah are will

20:00

pull back from his government so that his government

20:02

could collapse. So Benny

20:04

Genshan's earlampage could come and

20:06

offer political support to the Netanyahu government

20:08

in the kenneth set. But

20:11

even in that case, Netanyahu will be at

20:13

the mercy of his political rivals. So

20:16

Netanyahu's political future would be actually

20:18

at risk here if he doesn't

20:20

attack Rafa. But at

20:22

the same time, I think Biden's pressure

20:25

tactics is having some impact on Israel's

20:27

overall military calculus because Israel

20:29

has been talking about Rafa for quite some time.

20:32

But they still haven't launched a full-scale attack

20:34

on Rafa. So if the

20:37

US is not exerting pressure, I think they

20:39

would have done it much, much earlier. So

20:41

they are, you know, it is,

20:44

both sides are trying to use the cards

20:46

they have because yes,

20:49

Israel may not have, may not need

20:51

immediate weapons supplies from the Americans. But

20:54

at the same time, this is a signal

20:56

that the Americans are sending to the Israelis.

20:59

So the signal is that it could

21:01

affect, it can have some effect on

21:04

Israel's, you know, long-term

21:06

relationship with the United States if an

21:09

Israeli prime minister goes ahead

21:12

against the wishes of an American president

21:14

and he expressed his threat line publicly,

21:17

not secretly, you know, not through diplomatic

21:19

channels. The fact that Biden said this

21:21

to the CNN that suggests

21:23

that Biden wants the world to know what

21:26

his position is. So

21:28

if Netanyahu is going against his will,

21:30

this could create serious friction in the

21:32

relationship. So I think this

21:34

has symbolic value. This may

21:36

have effect on the long-term relationship.

21:40

But at the same time, you can

21:42

also see that Israel may not need

21:44

offensive weapons immediately to attack Rafa. Rafa

21:46

is anyway, there are four Hamas battalions

21:49

and Israel can carry out that act.

21:51

Israel doesn't face any major conventional military

21:53

threat from Rafa, right? But

21:56

if, you know, on April 14th, when Israel was in the United

21:58

States, it was a very, very difficult time to get the Iran launched

22:00

330 drones missiles, cruise

22:02

missiles, and ballistic missiles. All

22:06

those ballistic missiles and cruise missiles were shot

22:08

down by the Americans, the French, and

22:11

the Jordanians along with Israelis, not just

22:13

Israel alone. Right? Netanyahu today says Israel

22:15

has the strength to stand alone on

22:17

its own, but that's not factual. Israel

22:20

needs the support of the United States and its allies,

22:23

especially when it comes to its conflict with Iran. Right?

22:26

So it is in general for

22:28

Netanyahu to say that Israel can stand

22:30

on its own a few weeks after

22:32

the Americans, the French, the Jordanians, and

22:35

the British shot down most of the Iranian

22:37

projectiles. So Israel

22:39

needs the United States. It's

22:42

as simple as that. Right.

22:44

Israel needs the United States and the

22:47

United States has sort of taken a

22:50

little bit of

22:52

a shift in terms of its unconditional support,

22:54

so to speak. And especially with

22:56

regard to offensive operations. One last question,

22:58

Stanley, on this before I let you

23:01

go. So there have been a lot

23:03

of student protests around the world, especially

23:05

the ones in American campuses, in Ivy

23:07

League university campuses have been making the

23:09

headlines and they have been a

23:12

repressive action against them from law

23:14

enforcement in different Western

23:17

capitals, UK, US. And

23:19

do you think this, all these protests from

23:21

the students is beginning to have an effect

23:24

on the Western support for Israel, either

23:26

at the public level or at the

23:28

governmental level, because there does seem to

23:30

be a lot of people making connections

23:32

with the anti-Vietnam war protests as

23:35

well. So do you think these protests have

23:37

had any role to play in the shift

23:39

of the Biden administration, so to speak,

23:42

or was it coming anyway? I

23:45

think it was possible that the protest had an

23:47

impact. Biden says he didn't change his policy because

23:49

of the protest. But the fact

23:51

is that he actually took this

23:54

position, his boldest position, till

23:56

now after the protest erupted.

24:00

The United States has taken a very different

24:02

approach towards the protest. They used to force

24:04

to remove the protesters. They used

24:06

to force to destroy the encampments. And

24:10

the US media and the US government are trying

24:12

to give a new twist, trying

24:14

to build a new narrative that the protest is

24:16

all about anti-Semitism. All

24:18

those efforts are there. But at

24:20

the same time, Biden, I think, also

24:22

feels the heat. This

24:24

doesn't mean that there will be a major

24:27

paradigm shift in the West's relationship with

24:30

Israel. No, I don't expect that to happen.

24:32

But there could be short-term policy

24:34

changes. There could be some major

24:37

pressure impact on the policy decisions

24:39

of the West. Of

24:41

the United States, basically, because Europe

24:44

doesn't really come into the

24:46

picture, no? They issue statements. Otherwise, here,

24:48

at least when it comes to Israel,

24:50

I think the United States is the

24:53

most important, most significant voice.

24:57

And the protests, I think, are having some kind of impact, because this

24:59

is also an election year. And

25:02

Biden's core voters have started questioning the

25:04

United States' unconditional support for Israel and

25:06

the cash royalties. Because the situation in

25:08

Gaza is quite terrible. You haven't seen

25:10

this kind of destruction in the 21st

25:13

century, right? 34,000

25:15

people have been killed. The entire population of

25:17

Gaza has been displaced. 77,000

25:19

people have been wounded. And

25:22

most of the displaced people are living

25:24

in Rafah. And Rafah is now being

25:26

born. There are not enough hospitals in

25:28

Gaza. And the United Nations

25:31

says there is a full-blown, within

25:33

quotes, full-blown famine in northern Gaza.

25:35

So this is terrible. This

25:37

humanitarian crisis is terrible. And the West is

25:40

known for its human rights values

25:42

preaching, etc., etc., right? So at the

25:44

end of the day, there would be questions, what the United

25:46

States did, what the UK did, when

25:48

this calamity was being unfolded before

25:51

the whole world. So I

25:53

think this is what is building pressure on

25:55

the streets. And that pressure is having some

25:58

impact on, at least on the short-term. policy

26:00

decisions of the government. Right.

26:03

Thank you for that Stanley. As

26:05

you rightly said, the West likes

26:07

to preach about human rights and

26:09

humanitarian support, etc. But when

26:11

it comes to Gaza

26:13

and Israel, I think the

26:16

entire liberal or

26:18

moral authority of the West seems

26:20

to have become completely hollow, except

26:23

of course the silver lining being

26:25

the student protests in various

26:27

western capitals. But in Gaza, I mean, this

26:29

is not going to really make much of

26:31

a difference. A near famine or

26:33

a full blown famine situation as you rightly pointed

26:36

out. And with Israel now

26:38

still not ready to back off

26:40

from a Rafah operation, I think

26:42

the coming weeks are

26:44

going to be again a very grim

26:47

from the civilian point of view. We'll have

26:49

to wait and watch how things pan out.

26:51

Thank you so much Stanley once again for

26:53

your observations and insights on this

26:55

ongoing conflict. Thank you so much. Thank you.

27:26

Thank you.