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1:33

If you scroll down the page for this edition, you'll find

1:35

a reading list to go with it. I hope

1:37

you enjoy the programme. Nicolas

1:40

de Condorcet is known as the last

1:42

of the philosophical, the intellectuals in the

1:44

French Enlightenment who sought to apply their

1:46

learning to solving the problems of their

1:48

time. Born in 1743, he

1:52

became a passionate believer in the

1:54

progress of society, an advocate

1:56

for equal rights for women and

1:58

the abolition of the slave trade. The and

2:00

a representative government. The

2:03

French Revolution give him a chance to

2:05

advances ideas and wallets. Tara brought his

2:07

life to an end and seventy nine

2:09

divorce. His wife said that a good

2:11

sheets and sure does influence into the

2:13

next century and beyond with me to

2:16

discuss the Marty to com door say

2:18

ah John Hopkins senior teachers associated in

2:20

the Department of Politics and International Studies

2:22

in the University of Cambridge and seller

2:24

so in college Richard what more? Professor

2:26

of Modern History at the University of

2:29

St Andrews and Co Director of the

2:31

St Andrews Institute of Intellectual. History and

2:33

read so how Muslims Professor

2:35

of intellectual history it's at

2:37

Newcastle University Ritual: What was

2:40

condesa? childlike says. Is touted was

2:42

insisting he was born in September

2:44

seventeen, forty three and take a

2:46

day in Northern France and his

2:48

father was in the military but

2:50

his father died when on to

2:52

say was very young and his

2:54

mother perhaps understandably became by protective

2:56

of him and this involved her

2:58

and devoted dedicating him to the

3:00

virgin and insisting that he wore

3:02

a scarce and pitiful and ten

3:04

he was eight years old so

3:06

he had quite a protected childhood

3:08

and to begin with he said

3:10

educated. At a jesuit college in

3:12

stance on in France that with

3:15

needs he is time wait student

3:17

india the jesuit so religion to

3:19

him I don't think in this

3:21

some sense that that contributed to

3:23

his opposition t some of those

3:25

religious ideas they to in his

3:27

life and then he made send

3:29

their the late seventeenth fifties t

3:31

the college than of our and

3:33

parents and it's their that his

3:35

abilities a mathematician were picked south

3:38

Penn and recognized and know I

3:40

guess and establishing. Himself in Paris

3:42

in that landed Wow that.

3:45

This is paired marked on by

3:47

an extraordinary outburst of learning of

3:49

shares. Learning to be fine by

3:51

the encyclopedia deserves encyclopedia that was

3:53

a big part of it. What

3:55

was that? and how does your

3:57

lead to com Doesn't. Seem.

3:59

Like it. The is a very interesting

4:01

was because he say I'd been

4:03

zero with was fundamental and he

4:06

was initially asked teeth produce kind

4:08

of French fast said of an

4:10

English encyclopedia at the time the

4:12

chamber's sites a Pdf which it

4:14

appeared in the twenties, but the

4:16

the Friends on six up a

4:18

D ended up being a much

4:21

more ambitious was than that initial

4:23

an encyclopedia or Or or dixon

4:25

rates resulting in seventeen volumes of

4:27

texts and levin volumes of pictures

4:29

seventy two thousand. And trees and

4:31

really is a collection of the

4:33

state of knowledge at the time

4:36

and and particularly of knowledge that

4:38

would be useful. So one of

4:40

the interesting things about the On

4:42

Six Up A D is it

4:44

is about arts and sciences, but

4:46

it's also about patch plots if

4:48

you like same people who were

4:50

tradesman at the time producing things,

4:52

manufacturers, their procedures, the way in

4:55

which they did things. We've also

4:57

absolutely sent for them with set

4:59

out in. The dictionary alongside what

5:01

we might seem covers more current of

5:03

Pyo, abstract science and philosophy light so

5:05

it's an important walk from that point

5:08

of view. Would have gone

5:10

door so contribute to that. If anything I'm

5:12

I'm he. Did. So he was associated with

5:14

as a coach on down there who

5:16

alongside C Drive with involved that the

5:18

kind of foundation as the On Six

5:20

Oh Buddy and Seven Seventy Seven Seas

5:22

com to say contributed are a number

5:24

of articles on mathematics to the supplement

5:26

to the On Six. Ah pity. But

5:28

I think in some ways what's more

5:30

interesting is what. The. on six

5:33

of beauty contributed to condo say

5:35

because i think there's a real

5:37

connection that so it a bounce

5:39

it's about advancing knowledge see you

5:41

put all that noise together when

5:43

that provides a foundation for advancing

5:45

knowledge in the future but it's

5:47

also very much about the dissemination

5:49

of knowledge and that notion of

5:51

disseminating knowledge is fundamentals the enlightenment

5:53

but it's also particularly important to

5:55

condo size and also in that

5:57

know sniffing see about kind of

5:59

manufacturers and things like that, as well as

6:01

what we might think of as scientists. There's

6:04

a notion of practical knowledge,

6:06

of knowledge being practical and useful and

6:09

having a kind of value in the

6:11

world. And I think those three things,

6:13

the advancement of knowledge, the dissemination of

6:15

knowledge, and the practical application of knowledge,

6:18

really inform what Condor Sayo is about

6:20

in his later life. Thank you.

6:23

Tom Hopkins, he became an extremely distinguished

6:25

mathematician. Some people threw the word genius

6:27

around. What do you make of it?

6:30

Yes, it was quite controversial for his

6:33

family that he decided to pursue mathematics

6:35

professionally. It was a business, actually. Indeed.

6:37

They wanted him to be a soldier

6:39

like his father. And

6:41

so when he comes back from the College de

6:43

Nava, the expectation is that he's

6:45

going to return home for good, going to

6:47

the army and pursue a career in that

6:49

direction. Instead, he spends the year

6:52

1762 to three writing a couple of papers

6:56

that he then returns to Paris

6:58

to present, firstly to Jean Dalmbert,

7:01

who we've heard about already, and

7:03

another prominent mathematician, Jean-Louis Legrand.

7:07

And what these papers deal

7:09

with are two very important problems that

7:11

are being tackled by many mathematicians across

7:13

Europe at that point. Firstly,

7:16

he's interested in integral calculus.

7:18

Secondly, he's interested in what's called the

7:20

three-body problem, which in

7:22

Newtonian physics deals with the motion

7:25

of bodies that are simultaneously

7:28

attracted to each other. He

7:30

used mathematics in all sorts of ways, didn't he?

7:33

I mean, he used it to talk about society,

7:35

who contained different ways of society. Can you give

7:37

us the first ways

7:39

in which he decided that the knowledge

7:41

he'd gained and the methods he'd gained

7:44

from studying mathematics at the level of

7:46

history would be useful in reshaping what

7:48

he wanted to do with society? The

7:52

key moment is in 1772, when

7:56

he becomes particularly interested in problems

7:58

of probability. No. He

8:01

has recently met the important

8:03

French philosopher and public servants.

8:06

To Go and to Go

8:08

is interested in problems by

8:10

public administration is also at

8:12

that time and point closely

8:14

connected the Voltaire and Voltaire.

8:17

His interested in particularly in

8:19

questions of injustice and problems

8:21

of evidence in ad cold

8:23

cases. So there's a number

8:25

of scandals around Air France.

8:28

Judicial decisions that com the

8:30

say is. Particularly concerned with

8:32

particularly the trial. And. Execution

8:34

of this value to the

8:37

bar and something sixty six

8:39

which he saw as a

8:42

major injustice sparked by prejudice,

8:44

bigotry and fools. Justice Now

8:46

Voltaire. Was. Interested in the

8:49

ways in which standards of

8:51

evidence could be improved through

8:53

the use of probability theory

8:55

and Condo Say agrees with

8:57

him that there is a

8:59

serious need reform. He doesn't

9:01

think Voltaire has the mathematical

9:03

skills necessary to deliver and

9:05

so he sets himself the

9:07

task of showing how improvements

9:09

and probability theory could give

9:11

a secure standard of proof.

9:13

In judicial trials this is

9:15

are useful to reasons. Firstly,

9:17

For pursuing this, thoughts about

9:20

how do you estimate the

9:22

use of particular kinds of

9:24

proof in judicial trials. Secondly,

9:27

has important implications. Fool. Think

9:29

about induction in natural science

9:31

at how could you reason

9:34

back from an effect to

9:36

it's causes Thinking about the

9:38

probable value of a hypothesis

9:41

Ah, so called assays Worth

9:43

in this area has quite

9:45

significant implications for a range.

9:48

of matters both scientific and social

9:50

and it does get notice he's

9:53

made her you and member of

9:55

the academy of sciences already in

9:57

at seventeen sixty nine but by

10:00

1781 he's been appointed to the

10:02

French Academy, largely under the

10:04

Passion of d'Alandbert, but this is

10:06

a major sign that

10:09

he's held in high esteem. Thank

10:11

you Richard, what more? Richard, we

10:13

hindsight, we know the revolution wasn't

10:16

far off, but Condar Seis

10:18

wasn't a revolutionary at the time that

10:20

we've been talking about. What was he?

10:23

He was definitely in these years 1770s, 1780s

10:27

the antithesis of the Republican revolutionary

10:29

he was to become, and it's

10:33

also worth saying that in a

10:35

sense he has an anti-politics because

10:37

he sees around him like Turgot,

10:41

like d'Alandbert, like Voltaire, he

10:43

sees a corrupt French court, he

10:46

sees a corrupt church, he

10:49

sees selfishness and Machiavellianism all

10:51

around him, and

10:53

he thinks that he can

10:55

define the public good for

10:58

everybody, remove

11:00

all political contestation, and

11:03

pass laws that ensure

11:05

that people adhere to this public

11:08

good. So it's

11:10

a vision of the public good

11:12

shared by a community and

11:15

the claim which Condar

11:17

Seis expresses and all of these

11:19

figures do, and obviously they're philosoph

11:22

but they're also associated with the

11:24

physiocratic movement, the reform movement in

11:26

France which is very influential

11:28

in these years. I suppose on land.

11:31

It's based on the reform of land

11:33

but the main consequence is really going

11:35

to be the restoration of French fortunes.

11:37

You know the perception is that the

11:40

world is unnatural because France is not

11:42

as great as it ought to be,

11:45

that an odd state called Britain

11:47

has risen, it's an unnatural

11:49

state and it shouldn't be as

11:51

powerful as it is, and they think it's

11:54

the fault of the French and they want to

11:56

do something about it and doing something about it

11:58

is passing laws. systematically to

12:00

guide French people towards the

12:03

common good and they think

12:05

French greatness will follow. So

12:07

there's quite a lot of

12:09

national pride associated with the

12:11

anti-politics that he's expressing in

12:13

these years. He wasn't

12:15

the first Montesquieu had looked at Britain

12:17

as an example before him. Well Montesquieu

12:20

in The Spirit of the Laws in

12:22

1748, especially in the 11th book, said

12:27

that Britain was the most free

12:29

state in history and also that

12:31

it was a republic hiding beneath the form

12:33

of a monarchy. Now

12:36

the presumption is that Montesquieu is therefore

12:38

praising Britain but actually it's the opposite.

12:40

It's too free. It's

12:42

a state that France cannot model itself

12:45

on and the message really

12:47

is that states as free

12:49

as Britain with as much liberty

12:51

as Britain are likely to turn

12:53

fanatic and they must not be

12:55

followed as a political model. And

12:58

that's certainly what Condorsay thinks

13:01

and in a sense he's following Montesquieu

13:04

but the physiocrats and Turgot,

13:06

they all think that Britain's

13:08

risen unnaturally. It's got a

13:10

corrupt economy. It's got

13:12

an odd political system where the

13:14

common good is not followed and

13:16

therefore you really need to avoid

13:18

Britain as a model. And that

13:20

is something that is a view

13:22

that he adheres to to

13:24

his dying day. And

13:26

does it just brush aside the fact that it

13:29

seems to be rather successful? The

13:32

irony is that they don't think Britain's

13:34

successful at all. They think that it's

13:36

risen because of trade. The

13:39

trade that it pursues is associated

13:41

with an enormous national debt. It's

13:44

associated with the pursuit of war and

13:46

corrupt forms of empire and it must

13:49

fail. It's also the prediction of Voltaire

13:51

after the Seven Years' War. He thinks

13:53

Britain's in decline and it seems to

13:55

Be coming to pass with the

13:58

American Revolution and the... Relative

14:00

well: The defeat of Britain in

14:02

war When Britain is finally defeated

14:04

in war by France by the

14:07

American Colonies, it seems the all

14:09

the predictions of the filler south

14:11

of the seventeen Sixty Seventy Six

14:13

these are coming true and a

14:16

more natural world will emerge, guided

14:18

by law and science, exposed by

14:20

the philosophical defining the common good

14:22

which is better for the entirety

14:24

of humanity and of it's a

14:27

good thing if the Free State

14:29

of Britain collapses. Mitchell resumes

14:31

the "let's turn now to do"

14:33

when he married, says it a

14:35

Gucci, who now who was she

14:38

and and would diversity make to.

14:41

So. Says it agreed see is in her

14:43

life she becomes a philosopher in have I

14:45

Write. This even us for Monday through

14:47

translation of Adam Smith's and. So

14:49

he says he says nine Sahara

14:52

tent size and of necessary of

14:54

moral sentiments. And but I think

14:56

what's interesting about that watches that

14:58

she does. She can't Sites Smith's

15:00

taxed and as know it's It's

15:02

highly unusual of women to translate

15:04

works at that time. The is

15:07

an area that. Women do appear

15:09

in the. What's interesting about Secede

15:11

Great see is the as well

15:13

as translating the theory of my

15:15

sentiments she bites her writing letters

15:17

on sympathy with see A pens

15:19

t that what Say she's ten

15:21

citing him, she's making his ideas

15:23

accessible, but she's also critiquing him

15:25

while. He sees them ours

15:27

is an exempt from remind people

15:29

she reminds us his mind that

15:32

isn't totally equal terms and is

15:34

he has of of seizures and

15:36

zones of. Absolutely says not long

15:38

after the marriage can do with say

15:40

like to work on the yeah the

15:43

admission of women to the rights of

15:45

the city in which he basically all

15:47

keys for political rights for women and

15:50

bloated as he put forward are incredibly

15:52

powerful. So his basic premise is people

15:54

have invites advice on the fact that

15:57

human thanks arrest. New Places. When.

16:00

are rational creatures, just like men

16:02

are, and therefore women should also

16:05

have political rights. And

16:07

in response to the idea that, well, you

16:09

know, women haven't made great scientific discoveries, so

16:11

perhaps they're not as rational as men, his

16:13

response is to say, well, then

16:15

you'd have to restrict political

16:18

rights only to the men who make

16:20

great scientific discoveries. If you're going to

16:22

allow political rights for a wider proportion

16:24

of men, then you need to allow

16:26

those rights for women as well, or

16:28

you have to provide your explanation as

16:31

to, you know, what justifies excluding

16:33

them from those rights. And

16:35

at that time, that's a really strong

16:37

argument. And for that argument to be

16:39

met being made by a man, I

16:41

think is really significant. He

16:44

also he responds, he tries to

16:46

engage with what might be

16:48

the objections to rights for women.

16:51

So for example, he says, okay, well,

16:54

people might say that if you

16:56

give women political rights, then they

16:58

have influence that they shouldn't have.

17:00

But actually, he says, influence

17:02

without rights. So, so, you know, women are

17:04

going to try and exert influence anyway. And

17:06

if they're doing it without those rights, that's

17:09

more dangerous than if you give them a

17:11

voice and allow them to express their views.

17:14

He also says, well, you could argue

17:16

that the problem with giving women rights

17:18

is that it distracts from them from

17:21

tasks that they perhaps ought to be

17:23

pursuing, bringing up family or whatever. But

17:26

he says that that's not relevant in terms

17:28

of the kind of representative system of government

17:30

that he's thinking about. And he would also

17:32

want men who have to earn a living

17:34

and work to be able

17:36

to have rights. A representative system

17:38

of government makes it possible for people

17:41

to exercise their political voice to be

17:43

able to speak on political issues, but

17:45

also to be able to engage in

17:47

other activities as well, that politics doesn't

17:50

have to take up the whole of

17:52

your time and energies. Tom

17:54

Condor, I was interested in representative

17:57

government, and you could also be a rational

17:59

government. Can you about that? Yes,

18:01

so it had been a major plank

18:03

of the program of Turgot as Controller

18:06

General of Finances to begin

18:08

to introduce provincial assemblies into

18:11

France, begin building up an

18:14

element of representative government in France

18:17

in the 1770s and

18:19

Condorcet had been very interested in that. By

18:23

the time Turgot's dismissed from

18:25

the Ministry, Condorcet's interests have

18:28

drifted into subjects of political economy,

18:30

he's interested in public administration, but

18:32

that thought about representative government never

18:34

quite leaves him and

18:36

we see it emerge in his mathematical works

18:38

in the 1780s. So in 1785 he publishes

18:41

his major treaties which

18:45

is an essay on the

18:47

application of mathematical analysis to

18:50

majority decision-making, the probability of

18:52

majority decision-making and

18:55

he treats a number of problems

18:57

in that work of how

18:59

to think about rational

19:01

collective decision-making and

19:04

the reason why he says he's interested

19:06

in this is because

19:08

of a distinctive feature of modern

19:10

politics, whereas if you were

19:12

to look at ancient polities you

19:15

could very easily identify who

19:18

was exercising power and why

19:21

the assembly of a people

19:23

gathered together making democratic decisions,

19:25

there was no question whose will was

19:28

in charge of the state. In

19:30

modern politics power was always

19:33

going to be delegated, it didn't matter whether

19:35

you had a monarch appointing agents to act

19:37

for him or a people appointing representatives in

19:39

an assembly, you needed a

19:42

new way of thinking about the legitimation of

19:44

power and the only

19:46

way he could see that that would

19:48

work would be if the exercise of

19:50

power was rational. So what

19:53

he's interested in thinking about a

19:55

theory of representative government Is

19:57

in thinking about how you can secure rational.

20:00

The outcomes and he has

20:02

to say particular way to

20:04

think about this. In the

20:07

case of thinking about juries,

20:09

his confronting a problem where

20:11

the decision to be made

20:14

is either true or false.

20:17

And in thinking about this problem.

20:20

What? He thinks is significance

20:22

is that is the general

20:24

level of education of enlightenment

20:27

of those comprising Juri is

20:29

higher. The probability that they

20:32

will make the correct judgment

20:34

is higher is the absolute

20:37

majority. Of. Voters.

20:39

Boasting in the right direction

20:41

as he thinks that is

20:43

higher, the probability that they

20:45

judgment as a home be

20:47

tracked is also higher when

20:49

he turns to boasting. Things.

20:52

Get rough, more complicated

20:54

he's dealing. With. A

20:56

problem first laid out been added

20:59

some sound the Buddha in a

21:01

paper and seventeen seventy he didn't

21:03

say identified. Rather intriguing problem in

21:06

cases where voters were to rank

21:08

that preferences for different candidates A

21:10

could win more votes and be

21:12

be more votes than see and

21:15

yet see would win in a

21:17

had had contest with a com

21:19

the same worried. What he wanted

21:21

to show was that the most

21:24

sensible way to proceed A with.

21:26

This boating paradox was to seek

21:28

what's become known as condo say

21:30

winner one who would win in

21:32

a head to head contest against

21:34

any other candidate And what that

21:37

prompted him to think about his

21:39

ways of establishing to step a

21:41

three step of falstaff even me

21:43

elections that would allow you to

21:45

sift through the initial results of

21:47

a voting system to get out

21:49

now had to had contest that

21:51

would determine the fund Imf Come

21:53

thank you. Plan

21:58

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apply. mintmobile.com. Richard

23:01

Will Move would change for

23:03

Condos and his ideas when

23:06

the revolution came front. And

23:08

Seventy Two non. well, the

23:10

French Revolution is an enormous

23:12

opportunity for reforms long canvassed

23:14

to be put into practice.

23:16

At first in a sense,

23:19

nothing changes except that all

23:21

of a sudden his friends

23:23

you know people like say

23:25

as me of are both

23:27

fellow members of the Society

23:29

of Seventy Ninety Nine. they

23:32

have power and they can put

23:34

to goes program into practice it'll

23:36

change the world but it'll change

23:39

will gradually the reason it's not

23:41

necessarily a radical revolution is because

23:43

the end result is going to

23:45

be a patriotic monarchy initially the

23:48

king they think is on board

23:50

and they can go for together

23:52

with the king and the nation

23:54

rooting out machiavellian ism corruption in

23:57

the church in amongst theorists are

23:59

are So

24:01

again, France rises by

24:04

these practical measures and

24:06

the laws that they're going to pass. But

24:10

then everything changes as the revolution proceeds

24:13

because this reform project fails.

24:15

The king's not on board,

24:17

the court's not on board.

24:20

The such opposition to the

24:22

revolution not only among its

24:24

natural critics but the revolutionaries

24:27

themselves begin to disagree about

24:29

the reform projects that they've

24:31

initiated. And

24:33

the result is really revolution

24:36

after revolution debating how

24:38

do you put these rational

24:40

laws into practice. And

24:43

the solution in the end that Condorcet

24:45

focuses on is you need to have

24:47

a republic. And obviously that happens after

24:49

the flight to Varenne when the king

24:51

tries to escape. He shows that he's

24:53

completely abandoned the revolution by 1791 and

24:55

France has to become a

24:58

republic. Thank you very much, Rachel.

25:00

So we're at that, we've taken to a

25:02

particular point in the revolution. Did

25:05

this alone turn Condorcet into being a

25:07

republican? And if so, what sort of

25:09

a republican? The flight to

25:11

Varenne I think is key for him in

25:13

terms of making him realize that the constitutional

25:15

monarchy is not going to be... Well, they

25:17

run away. Well, exactly. And

25:20

they return but they're seen as having betrayed

25:22

the revolution and therefore you can't rely on

25:25

the king in order to

25:27

put in place the kind of reforms

25:29

that Condorcet and his friends want to

25:31

put in place. So that

25:33

moment is kind of key. I think when

25:35

you look at what happens after that point,

25:37

I think

25:39

it was perhaps much

25:41

easier for the kind of

25:44

things that Condorcet was wanting to institute

25:46

to be put into place under a

25:49

republican government than it might have been

25:51

under a constitutional monarchy. So he was just

25:53

looking for a way through. I'm not sure

25:55

I'd go so far to say he was looking for a way through but

25:57

I think looking at it in

25:59

hindsight... that looks like a more

26:01

natural route for him, if he's

26:03

arguing in terms of things like representative

26:05

government, in terms of people's rights, in

26:07

terms of rationality, than trying to fit

26:10

that into a constitutional monarchy. So in

26:13

terms of the kind of republic that

26:15

he's wanting to see, it

26:19

is at that point a republic

26:21

without a king. So the

26:24

arguments being put forward in terms of

26:27

the problems with the monarchy, the cost

26:29

that the monarchy incurs, the

26:32

notion that actually you can have a better kind of

26:34

system of government. But it's also,

26:36

so there's no king, but it's also very

26:39

much a representative form

26:41

of government. And one

26:44

of the things that Condor say

26:46

developed during this period of time

26:48

is a particular understanding of how

26:50

representation should work. And

26:52

it's one that sets him apart from some

26:55

of the other people who are also

26:57

arguing for republican representative government

26:59

at this time. The key distinction

27:02

for Condor say is

27:04

that you separate the

27:06

way in which you think about legislation from

27:09

the way in which you think about the

27:11

kind of constitution if you like. So

27:13

for him, representation has

27:15

to happen in terms

27:17

of legislation. So the legislation that's made, you

27:19

need a representative body that's going

27:22

to draw up those laws and put them into practice.

27:24

But when you're talking about the kind

27:27

of fundamental constitutional powers,

27:29

the kind of foundation of the system, if you like,

27:32

he feels that actually that should

27:34

not operate via representation. Whereas Siaas,

27:37

for example, would say that you

27:39

should have representation under that system

27:41

as well. But for Condor

27:43

say that system, you really

27:45

need a popular endorsement of the constitution. And

27:47

that brings in the notion of a kind

27:50

of plebiscite. So the population

27:52

as a whole will agree to the

27:54

constitution. And then once that's established, you

27:56

can have representative government operating through a

27:58

legislative representative body. Thank you very

28:00

much. Let's switch now to another area

28:03

which concerned him, Tom, Tom Hopkins, which

28:05

was a slave trade. He wanted it abolished. Yes,

28:08

he'd been interested in this question for some

28:11

time. He'd written a piece in as early

28:13

as 1780 under the

28:16

pen name Dr. Schwartz. So Dr. Black,

28:19

he was presenting himself as a Swiss

28:21

pastor concerned at the inhumanity of

28:23

the slave trade. But by 1788, we

28:25

get the foundation

28:27

of the Society of Friends of

28:30

Black Africans, which is

28:32

explicitly modeled after American

28:35

and British anti-slave trade

28:37

campaigns. And Condelser is

28:39

very, very keen that this play a

28:41

central role in what promises to

28:44

be a particularly febrile

28:46

political moment. So he takes a

28:48

lot of time in preparing

28:50

the rules for the society. What's

28:53

driving him in this interest is

28:55

that same thought about natural rights

28:58

that Rachel was exploring in relation to women

29:00

earlier. He thinks it's self-evident

29:02

that there can be no

29:05

natural basis for slavery.

29:08

If there were, then there wouldn't be

29:10

restrictions on the use

29:12

of white Europeans as

29:14

slave labor. So he

29:17

doesn't think it's at all worth getting

29:19

into an argument about whether or

29:22

not slavery is justified morally. It's

29:24

not end of story. The

29:26

real question is, how do you

29:28

go about abolishing it? And there,

29:31

what he wants to do is

29:33

demonstrate to slave owners that their

29:35

interest, their economic interest in particular,

29:38

lies in the abolition of the

29:40

trade, the improvement in the

29:42

conditions of their slaves, and

29:45

gradually their emancipation. Free

29:47

labor makes more productive labor. And this

29:49

is what's going to end the slave

29:51

trade to the West Indies as far

29:53

as he's concerned. Thank you. Richard,

29:56

if you want more, can we spend some time

29:58

on Condelser's ideas on the trade? progress.

30:01

Some of these ideas became better than

30:03

Apery's death because he wrote this sketch

30:06

about human progress. But can you just

30:08

give us a brisk summary of his

30:10

ideas on progress? The

30:12

bottom line is that he believes in

30:15

the perfectability of

30:18

the human species. And

30:20

he makes these claims

30:22

in the work that probably

30:25

becomes his most famous posthumously.

30:28

It's published in 1795, known

30:31

as the Eschys, the English translation

30:33

is the sketch for a historical

30:35

picture of the progress of the

30:37

human mind. And

30:40

in a sense, it's

30:42

Condorcet's response to the

30:45

utter failure of his revolutionary

30:47

career. And

30:49

he writes it in hiding, obviously during the

30:51

period of the terror. And it

30:53

says, don't worry, humans

30:57

will find solutions to all

30:59

problems, science progresses. And

31:02

he outlines 10 stages

31:04

of human development through history.

31:07

It's a story from rudeness to

31:09

refinement. The Philosoph, of course,

31:11

play a major role in the ninth

31:14

stage. And they really set

31:16

out the plans that are

31:18

realized in the French revolution

31:20

and then frustrated because

31:22

he says humans, so many humans

31:25

are really still children. They're

31:27

not sufficiently rational. They

31:29

need to be educated. And that

31:31

will happen in the 10th stage

31:34

when human nature itself

31:37

will change. So human

31:39

communities will ultimately be so successful

31:41

that nature itself will change. You

31:43

live longer, you'll become more rational,

31:46

and projects for education will

31:49

continue this improvement. Science, mathematics,

31:51

etc. will foster

31:53

this as well. In

31:55

a sense, arguments about

31:57

Condorcet and progress written

32:00

at a time when the French Revolution has

32:02

failed to produce a stable republic, you

32:05

could say that he

32:08

only believes in progress if

32:10

human nature itself changes. So he

32:13

doesn't believe in progress for the

32:15

present, because manifestly hasn't worked, but

32:17

he believes passionately in it for

32:19

the future. And I think it

32:21

marks the eschies, the sketch, it

32:24

marks a real shift

32:26

in Condorcet's thinking, because

32:30

as we've talked about, as

32:32

Tom and Rachel have said, Condorcet

32:34

is obsessed with reform projects, getting

32:36

everything really precise, getting the laws

32:38

right, getting the rules right. I

32:40

think as a republican, he moves

32:42

to the point of view that

32:45

you have to get the culture

32:47

right. And the eschies,

32:49

the sketch is saying you have

32:51

to get human nature right in

32:53

communities. And that means

32:56

changing the culture. Thank you. Can we

32:58

just take that on, Rachel? And to

33:01

what role did you see education

33:03

playing in this progressive

33:05

revolution? If you think about,

33:08

well, how do you go about changing

33:10

culture? Of course, education

33:13

is absolutely crucial to

33:15

that. And in fact, one

33:18

of the things I find interesting about the

33:20

sketch is that this is the work that

33:22

he produces at this point. Which is in fact

33:24

a very, very long essay. It is a very

33:26

long essay. It's supposed to be a kind of plan

33:29

for a future work that he never manages to

33:31

produce. But as a sketch, it's actually quite

33:34

long in its own right. But people

33:36

had thought about the

33:38

sort of stages of civilization before,

33:40

but often those had been based

33:42

around economic foundations, if you like.

33:44

So moves from a kind

33:46

of pastoral society to an agricultural

33:49

society, to feudalism or whatever. And

33:52

there's an element of that in what Condor say

33:54

is saying. But what I think is really interesting

33:57

about the way he presents that kind

33:59

of work is that he's of development there

34:02

is that knowledge, the

34:04

development of knowledge, the spread

34:07

of knowledge is absolutely key to

34:09

the story. So for example, he

34:12

picks up on the invention of

34:14

the alphabet and the invention of

34:16

printing as fundamental moments that really

34:18

bring about a kind of sea

34:21

change because they allow for that spread,

34:23

for that communication of knowledge. And this

34:25

for him is absolutely key. The

34:28

other thing that I think is interesting is that it's not, although

34:31

he is presenting a view of progress

34:33

here, it's not the sense that everything's

34:35

just always going in the, you know,

34:37

in the right direction from his point

34:39

of view. And of course, that's kind

34:41

of obvious given the circumstances under which

34:43

he's writing this work. So

34:46

there is a sense of, there are periods

34:48

of the stagnation of knowledge, there are periods

34:50

of ignorance and decline through

34:53

the kind of history that he

34:55

traces. And so again, I

34:57

think that comes back to what Richard was

34:59

saying about the kind of final stage in

35:01

the future. I think that gives a

35:04

certain degree of hope that even though the French

35:07

Revolution that what he was wanting to see had

35:09

failed, that Republican project has

35:11

failed, he's writing this in trading

35:13

because he's fallen from power. There's

35:17

still this notion that actually that's not necessarily

35:19

the end and there is still

35:21

the possibility that this will, you know, things

35:23

will improve again and there will be a

35:25

change and education,

35:28

public instruction, as he would put

35:30

it, is absolutely key to bringing that about.

35:32

But as you imagine, Heidin, he had been

35:35

a great star and

35:37

then he crossed Robespierre, just

35:40

to put it very simply, but that's what

35:42

happens isn't it Tom? And Robespierre went for

35:44

him and you take the story on from

35:47

there. Yes, so there had

35:49

been a brewing conflict within the assembly

35:52

now prebranded as the National Convention

35:55

with the beginning of the Republic and

35:58

this had pitted followers. of

36:01

prominent politician named Briso

36:03

against the left of

36:05

the Assembly, increasingly

36:07

looking to Robespierre for leadership.

36:10

And by the time

36:12

that the Journdin, as the followers

36:15

of Briso had become called,

36:17

were driven out of the Assembly by

36:19

Robespierre and the population

36:21

of Paris under the

36:23

Paris Commune, Condorcet is in

36:25

a very isolated position. He's been

36:28

trying to play both sides against

36:30

each other in a way, presenting himself as

36:33

above the political fray. Nevertheless,

36:35

no one quite believes that he's

36:38

that impartial. So he's seen as

36:40

too close to the Journdin by

36:43

the Jacques-Maine, too close to the

36:45

Jacques-Maine by the Journdin, and

36:47

this catches up with him. He's

36:49

not expelled immediately, but particularly when

36:51

he sets out to defend his

36:53

constitutional plan that he presented to

36:55

the Convention against

36:58

a new Jacquemine version of the document,

37:01

he is seen as a traitor to

37:03

the Jacquemine cause. Richard,

37:05

let's take two steps back and one

37:07

step sideways. How did

37:09

Condorcet come to be divorced and

37:11

then condemned to death in 1794? Let's

37:14

start with a divorce. Well,

37:16

the story is tragic, and

37:19

strictly speaking, he's divorced after

37:21

death because one of the

37:23

tragic elements is Sophie

37:26

Grusche is not aware that he

37:28

is in fact dead, and

37:31

that is because after

37:33

an arrest warrant is

37:35

issued for him, he goes into hiding

37:37

and he's worried about

37:42

the safety of the people that he's lodging

37:44

with, and he stays

37:46

in hiding from July 1793 to

37:49

March 1794, and then he's arrested. Now,

37:53

during this time, from the period

37:55

that an arrest warrant is issued

37:57

for his person, really

38:00

declared an Emmy Grey.

38:03

It's the case that when the

38:05

revolutionary authorities are searching for you,

38:07

you lose your property, it can

38:10

be sold, and that

38:12

is an utter

38:14

crisis for his wife

38:17

and their daughter. And

38:19

Sophie is desperate. She

38:23

knows that reform laws have

38:25

been passed in September 1792,

38:27

which allowed divorce for the

38:29

first time. It's possible

38:31

to get a divorce on

38:34

the grounds that you disagree with an

38:36

Emmy Grey. You're not an Emmy

38:38

Grey. You're not an enemy of the revolution

38:40

yourself. So she actually,

38:42

in order to survive, because she

38:44

is destitute and the Condorcet's property

38:46

is being sold, she

38:48

sets up a lingerie shop in

38:51

Paris, and she paints

38:53

portraits of revolutionary figures, some

38:55

of whom are destined very

38:57

soon for the guillotine. So

39:00

that's how she survives, but she's so desperate that

39:02

she institutes proceedings for

39:05

a divorce, and that

39:07

doesn't actually occur until May 1794,

39:11

by which time he's already dead. But

39:14

she doesn't know that he's

39:16

dead, because when he's arrested,

39:18

he's operating under a

39:20

pseudonym. He calls himself Pierre

39:22

Simon. He's pretending to

39:25

be an unemployed servant, traveling

39:27

around looking for work. But

39:29

the revolutionary committee that watches

39:31

people moving around, they see

39:33

that he has a silver

39:35

stick, a silver watch, and

39:38

he's carrying a book in Latin

39:41

by Horace. They know he's an

39:43

aristocrat. He's arrested, not as

39:45

Condorcet, but as Pierre

39:47

Simon, and by the end

39:49

of March, within two days of his

39:51

arrest, he's dead. We don't know whether

39:53

it's natural causes, we don't know whether

39:55

it's suicide, we don't know whether it's

39:58

murder. But Condorcet, at

40:00

the age of 50 is dead. Rachel,

40:04

he became known as the lust of the

40:06

philosophical. Was he? I see

40:08

him as a kind of pivot

40:10

if you like. So he does

40:12

absolutely as we've explored. He embodies

40:14

the principles of the enlightenment in

40:16

terms of advancing knowledge,

40:18

disseminating knowledge, putting knowledge to

40:21

use. But he's also

40:23

paving the way for things that

40:25

follow partly in terms of the

40:27

development of what we might see

40:29

as the beginnings of social sciences in the 19th century, and

40:33

particularly that notion of applying ways

40:35

of operating, mathematical principles, those sorts

40:37

of things to think about how to make

40:40

the world a better place. So to think about

40:42

moral and political questions. He's also,

40:44

of course, somebody, I mean, some of the things that we've

40:46

touched on today sound very

40:48

modern to us. His notion

40:51

of political rights for women,

40:53

his take on slavery, and

40:55

also some of the things

40:57

he has to say in the sketch

41:00

about the way in which European nations

41:02

have treated other countries around the world.

41:04

These things sound incredibly positive. So I

41:06

think he builds directly into some

41:08

of the things that happen in the 19th

41:10

century. But also I think he prefigures ideas

41:12

that we would still see as important

41:15

and in some ways, perhaps progressive today.

41:17

Thank you for coming to the end. But,

41:20

Tom, how did

41:23

Condors' ideas influence the

41:25

social sciences for the

41:27

next few decades, the next century? I

41:29

think there's two main directions. Firstly, starting

41:32

from the sketch, you get a lot

41:34

of interest in his philosophy of history

41:36

and the ways he thinks about progress.

41:39

So particularly the founders of

41:41

sociology, Henri Saint-Simon, Nogustgont, the

41:43

great admirers of his. They

41:45

were skeptical about his extreme anti-clericalism,

41:48

but they build very much on what he

41:51

had to say about progress. The other direction

41:53

is the mathematics. There isn't very

41:55

much direct interest in what he was saying

41:57

in the 19th century. There's certainly a tradition.

42:00

of expanding on this idea of

42:03

social mathematics in various directions. But the

42:05

Condorcet voting paradox is largely

42:07

forgotten until the 1950s, when

42:10

it's rediscovered by economists like Kenneth

42:12

Arrow, who make it one of

42:14

the foundation stones of modern social

42:16

choice theory. Thank you

42:18

very much. Finally, Briskley, what impact do you think he's

42:21

had on the whole, starting with you? What

42:23

seems to me to be particularly interesting

42:25

about Condorcet is that he's

42:27

wanting a form of government

42:30

that allows people to exercise their political

42:32

rights, to voice

42:34

those rights. But he's also

42:36

aware that although he's operating on

42:38

the idea that human beings are

42:41

rational, he recognises that people don't

42:43

always act rationally all of the

42:45

time. And it seems to

42:47

me that that question of producing

42:50

government that is rational,

42:52

that is in the interests of the public, and

42:54

at the same time having a kind of

42:56

democratic system, is an issue

42:58

that we still grapple with today. And

43:00

I think that makes his ideas important

43:02

and interesting. Tom Hopkins. I

43:05

think where he has

43:08

left a lasting legacy is

43:10

in this commitment to the

43:12

expansion of the range of tools

43:15

available to the social sciences. Without

43:18

him, I think it's very hard to

43:20

imagine mathematics being quite

43:23

as firmly on the agenda for political theorists

43:25

as it has subsequently

43:27

become. Richard, Richard Womol,

43:29

last word for you. I

43:32

think slightly differently that

43:34

he lives through the end of

43:36

enlightenment, the French revolution fails, and

43:39

the real challenge is how, is still

43:42

the old challenge, how to put the

43:44

French revolution into practice, how to put

43:46

reform into practice. He

43:48

imagines a world without a

43:51

sinner or a saint, where

43:53

everybody is part of this

43:56

very strong, ultimately republican community,

43:58

it's very homogeneous. It's

44:00

very rational. He

44:02

doesn't manage to make a reality of

44:04

it, nor have we. Thank

44:07

you very much. Thanks to Rachel

44:09

Hammersby, Tom Hopkins and Richard Wattmore,

44:11

and to our studio engineer, Andrew

44:13

Garrett. Next week, Nefertiti,

44:15

the Egyptian queen from the 14th

44:17

century BC, and the reasons for

44:20

her fame today. Thank you for

44:22

listening. And

44:24

the In Our Time podcast gets some extra

44:26

time now, with a few minutes of bonus

44:28

material from Melvin and his guests. What

44:31

didn't you say that you'd like to have said? I

44:33

guess one of the things that perhaps didn't

44:35

come out in the conversations that we were talking about,

44:38

well, there are two things. And both

44:40

around that period of the beginning of

44:42

republicanism in the French Revolution, so not

44:44

quite the beginning of the French Revolution,

44:46

but the early 1790s. One

44:49

is that I think another important model

44:51

for Condorcet and some of the people

44:53

that he associated with was the example

44:55

of the American Revolution and the Republic

44:57

in America. And that in some ways

44:59

they were looking to that, not that

45:01

I think they recognize the differences between

45:04

America and France, but there was a

45:07

sense of that being a positive model

45:09

that they could look to and bring

45:11

some of those ideas into play in

45:13

France. The other

45:15

thing is that we talked about him

45:17

at that point with the flight to

45:20

Varen, him shifting to being a republican,

45:22

being anti the monarchy. But also, I

45:24

think it's interesting, we get a sense

45:26

of his views on precisely that question

45:29

when there are the debates around what

45:31

should be done with the former King

45:33

Louis XVI. And Condorcet and

45:37

some of the people he's associated with are

45:39

certainly in favor of establishing republican government,

45:42

but they're not in favor of killing

45:44

the king, which is of course what eventually happens.

45:47

And as part of that debate, one of the things

45:49

that Condorcet says, which I think gives a sense of

45:52

his views and his insight is that

45:54

to judge an accused king is a

45:56

duty to pardon him can

45:58

be an act. of prudence. So

46:01

there's a notion that he doesn't want the king

46:03

within the political system, but he

46:05

doesn't necessarily think that executing him is

46:08

a good step to take.

46:11

Tom, would you like to? Yes, I

46:13

think what I like to emphasise

46:15

most is the anti-clerical aspect of

46:17

his thinking, which was quite

46:19

violent. Rachel mentioned...

46:22

His education. He never got over his education. He

46:24

never got over his education, as

46:26

Rachel mentioned. But we see this coming out in all sorts

46:29

of ways. Turgot once branded him a

46:31

rabid sheep, placid most of the time,

46:34

but inflamed to violence,

46:36

particularly by thoughts of the

46:38

injustices perpetrated by the Church.

46:42

And when we turn to the sketch, we can see

46:44

that playing out in quite interesting ways. One

46:46

of the most prominent aspects of that text is

46:48

the way in which he's interested in, if

46:52

you like, a kind of sociology of error,

46:54

if he was a phrase that

46:56

Keith Baker's given to us, he's

46:59

interested where does opposition to progress

47:01

come from? And

47:03

it seems to him that it's

47:05

always coming from groups that

47:07

have delivered progress in the past,

47:10

have used the tools that they've developed

47:12

for the advancement of human

47:15

society, then to build up their own power.

47:17

So the alphabet is a good example, the

47:20

ways in which sacred languages can become

47:22

a tool for power for priesthoods, gives

47:25

them a means of controlling the lives

47:27

of others. And the

47:29

great thing about modern science as he sees it

47:31

is that by virtue of its

47:33

empiricism, by virtue of its

47:35

alliance with the printing press, that

47:38

idea of a monopoly of knowledge and

47:40

power has been broken. And

47:42

there will be no return to that kind

47:45

of clerical society in the future. Richard,

47:47

I'd agree entirely with what

47:51

Tom has just emphasized, but

47:53

I just had one thing,

47:56

which is he hates churches, but

47:58

my goodness, his old ultimate vision

48:00

of the Republic looks like a

48:02

church. And one

48:05

of his critics, critic of the

48:07

French Revolution, Bonall, said

48:10

that Condorcet's sketch

48:13

was the apocalypse of a new gospel.

48:16

And that's the way Republicans were

48:18

seen at the time. Obviously, Thomas Paine writes

48:21

The Age of Reason. Who knows whether Condorcet

48:23

would have come to similar conclusions that

48:26

actually you need a civil

48:28

religion to make a reality,

48:31

make the revolution successful. So

48:34

I think that's worth saying. The other

48:36

thing is that if you read the

48:38

sketch, he does sound, I

48:41

guess, an 18th century equivalent of a

48:44

tech entrepreneur from Silicon Valley telling

48:46

you to have faith in the

48:48

future of AI. In

48:51

other words, everything's gonna be alright

48:55

once human nature changes, whereas

48:58

actually it didn't. And

49:00

the following generation, they're

49:03

obsessed with Condorcet because he looks as

49:05

if he's the kind of person who

49:07

could have made a success of the

49:09

French Revolution. And the terrible

49:11

tragedy is that he didn't, he wasn't

49:13

trusted. So for Sophie

49:16

Grusche, for figures such as

49:19

Arthur O'Connor, who's a united

49:21

Irishman who changes his

49:24

name when he marries Eliza

49:26

Condorcet to Arthur O'Connor Condorcet,

49:29

he's responsible for the the

49:31

complete works of Condorcet in the

49:33

early 19th century. So

49:36

Condorcet kind of becomes a revolutionary,

49:38

a kind of republican poster boy,

49:40

and future revolutionaries are definitely channeling

49:43

their inner Condorcet with

49:47

a view to making a reality of

49:49

the French Revolution to

49:51

combat this failure that Condorcet

49:53

himself lived through. Anything

49:55

else? So the only other thing that I guess we

49:58

haven't touched on very much is... the notion

50:00

of public instruction because he

50:02

also wrote things about public instruction. So,

50:05

not surprisingly, he sees education as important, he sees

50:08

the spread of knowledge as absolutely key to bringing

50:10

about the kind of cultural change that he wants

50:12

to see. But

50:14

he also talks about, well, how do you go

50:16

about implementing that and what kind of system would

50:18

you have? And what he wants

50:20

is kind of state education that would

50:22

be free for people to to

50:26

access. And there's a really

50:28

close link between that and

50:31

his understanding of kind of government, representative

50:33

government, that you're providing people with the

50:35

tools and the understanding that

50:37

they need in order to participate in

50:40

society and in politics in the way

50:42

that he thinks they should be doing.

50:44

Do you think if he hadn't been

50:46

caught, if he escaped to live another

50:48

day, he would have continued to make

50:50

a difference? Can I answer that?

50:52

Yeah, go ahead. I

50:55

think the really fascinating thing would

50:57

have been how he fell out

50:59

with Bonaparte because the

51:02

attempt to make a success of the

51:04

French Revolution continues. Obviously, the

51:06

sketch becomes a manifesto for

51:08

republican reform during the Directory.

51:11

Bonaparte ruins everything.

51:15

And how Condorcet, who would

51:17

definitely have been embraced

51:20

by Bonaparte, probably

51:22

turned into a nobleman in the

51:24

same way as Séz was, how

51:26

would he have reacted? That's the

51:28

question. Sophie, of course,

51:31

she falls out with him. Initially, she's

51:33

fascinated by Bonaparte, thinks

51:36

he's a patriotic monarch in the

51:38

Republican general slash patriotic monarch. So

51:41

you can trust him to undertake

51:43

republican reform, then it all goes

51:45

wrong. Yes, well, thank you all very

51:47

much. Thank you very much. Does

51:49

anybody want tea or coffee? I know a cup of tea please.

51:54

Oh, tea. It'd be great. In

52:00

our time with Melvin Bragg is produced

52:02

by Simon Tillotson. Will

52:06

you please welcome the 2023

52:08

BBC Reath lecturer, Professor Ben

52:11

Ansell. I

52:14

don't think anybody expects to be asked

52:16

to do the Reath lectures. So it's

52:18

an enormous honour, but it's an enormous

52:20

responsibility. Hello,

52:22

I'm Anita Arndt and in this

52:24

year's BBC Radio 4 Reath lectures,

52:27

Professor Ben Ansell explores our

52:29

democratic future and what we must

52:31

do to protect it. Democracy

52:34

is our legacy from past generations

52:37

and it's an obligation of ours

52:39

to secure for future generations. It's

52:42

up to us. That's

52:44

the 2023 Reath lectures.

52:46

Listen on BBC Sounds.

52:57

Thank you.