0:03

Hi, In the Bubble listeners. It's Julia

0:05

Louis-Dreyfus. I love learning

0:08

new things and talking to interesting people, just

0:10

like Andy does here on In the Bubble. In

0:12

my new podcast, Wiser Than Me, I'm

0:14

sitting down with the wisest women I

0:16

could find, women like Carol Burnett, Jane

0:19

Fonda, Darlene Love, Isabel

0:21

Allende, just to see what they

0:23

have to teach me about how to live a full

0:26

and meaningful life. Tune in

0:28

to get wise. Wiser Than Me

0:30

from Lemonada Media is out now. Listen

0:32

wherever you get your podcasts.

0:35

La la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la

0:37

la la la la la la la la la

0:40

la la

0:43

Craving more content from Lemonada Media? Subscribe

0:46

to Lemonada Premium today and unlock access

0:49

to exciting bonus content, not only from us,

0:51

but from all the shows across the network.

0:53

You'll hear exclusive audio that continues to

0:55

highlight all the ways we can make life suck

0:57

less. You'd also be helping Lemonada

0:59

bring you more of your favorite content for just $4.99 a

1:02

month. Check out a free trial of Lemonada

1:04

Premium today in the Apple Podcasts app by

1:07

clicking on our podcast logo and then the subscribe

1:09

button.

1:12

Lemonada.

1:29

This

1:35

is in the bubble with Andy Slavitt. Welcome

1:38

to the show. It is so good to

1:40

be talking to you. It's nice

1:42

and I hope everyone's having a nice summer. If

1:45

you're looking for something to do, you can email me,

1:48

Andy at Lemonada Media

1:50

dot com. I'd love to hear from you. Love

1:52

to have a conversation. My summer's

1:54

going well. We've

1:56

had a bunch of good shows recently. Thanks for tuning

1:58

in.

1:59

Interesting. today even

2:01

started we good summer hollywood

2:05

how it was have a bad summer for

2:07

the first time in decades we've got actors

2:10

and writers all on strike

2:13

now when these

2:15

actors and is how would people

2:18

who

2:18

get a little get a lot of sympathy from

2:20

us because there's we timothy

2:22

get the big stars like matt damon

2:25

then we don't tend to think about him there's a lot of

2:28

working people involved that i'm not asking that

2:31

we must really make them a source of sympathy but

2:33

i am interested

2:35

in how some of these hollywood people make

2:37

some their choices and hey matt damon's

2:39

a perfect example these guys

2:42

a you may recall last

2:44

year the year before the for when crypto currency

2:47

was hot these

2:49

actors larry david

2:52

matt damon other hollywood

2:54

people and sports people

2:56

like stephen curry and lebron james

2:58

and tom brady famously

3:01

they are out there hawking crypto currency

3:04

and in some respects you

3:06

know it felt like just

3:08

another

3:09

endorsement just another way to make

3:11

about the money you for a small amount of time

3:15

and

3:16

is me know because he didn't episode on this

3:18

last year i find it deeply

3:20

unsettling the had

3:23

a bunch of hollywood people

3:25

and people who are nonfinancial people were

3:27

primary spokespeople for crypto currency

3:30

with a core message saying be

3:32

bold be brave be daring and dad

3:35

take risk and know do your homework and

3:38

now this is coming back to bite them the lawsuits

3:41

there's all kinds of things and

3:43

a lot of people were duped in the process my

3:46

guess today is an actor

3:49

who at this time this

3:51

was happening back and twenty

3:53

twenty one third series

3:56

a little bit a about it his name is ben

3:58

mckenzie have fewer of

4:00

a certain age, you know

4:02

him from the OC. You

4:04

might also know him from the show Gotham. He's

4:07

an actor, he's also a writer

4:09

and a producer.

4:10

And he was one of the first

4:13

people to say, you know what, this

4:15

cryptocurrency thing is

4:17

a scam.

4:19

It's a problem. But more than that, I found

4:21

interesting, as he called out his fellow actors

4:24

publicly

4:25

and said, hey, don't

4:27

do this, don't do this.

4:30

And I got interested in talking

4:32

to Ben

4:33

because this whole idea

4:36

of calling out your peers

4:38

publicly for bad behavior is

4:41

something that most of us just won't do.

4:43

It's just frowned upon. I mean, imagine

4:46

calling out the people you work with for

4:48

doing something you disagree with publicly, not telling

4:50

them behind the scenes, but publicly saying, hey, Joe

4:53

in accounting is a

4:55

schmuck because he's doing

4:57

X and I don't believe in X.

5:00

It's pretty risky, right? You

5:02

get the opprobrium of your peers,

5:05

et cetera. And in this particular case,

5:08

you know, when everybody's living a pretty public life,

5:10

Ben McKenzie basically said

5:13

to all of the crypto bros out

5:15

there

5:16

to come attack them.

5:18

But he had a point and his point was not just

5:21

that cryptocurrency was

5:23

something that was poised for a fall. It

5:26

was that people were making illegal profits

5:29

and he believed, even though there was nothing proven at the time,

5:32

no cases publicly at the time,

5:34

and he also believed it preyed on people. It preyed

5:36

on low income communities and people of color,

5:39

et cetera. So I thought it'd be fun to have

5:42

Ben on the show

5:43

and thankfully he's willing to come on the show. He's

5:46

got a book that he's co-authored called

5:49

Easy Money where he kind of chronicles

5:52

his fight with his fellow

5:54

actors. I think it's pretty interesting.

5:56

So I thought a great summer

5:59

episode.

7:59

I mean, I guess the truth is it's

8:02

kind of a cliche, but it's true. University

8:04

of Virginia, where I went to school, was very Greek heavy,

8:07

it was about frats and sororities and stuff. That

8:09

just was not my vibe. And I needed

8:11

a way to meet girls. So I started

8:13

auditioning for plays and I got

8:15

a part and it was

8:18

really fun. It just sort

8:20

of, it fed something in me, which I think

8:22

is interesting about actors. A lot of us are actually

8:24

quite shy, quite

8:27

introverted. And it was a way of getting outside

8:29

of myself and finding confidence in myself

8:32

by pretending to be someone else. And

8:34

so I think that's how I fell into it.

8:36

Oh, interesting. You know, it's

8:39

interesting because from there, I mean,

8:41

it couldn't have been too long after you graduated

8:44

college that you end up

8:46

in LA landing the lead role

8:49

in the OC, which, you know, for

8:51

this audience, I think it's old enough to remember

8:53

the OC, probably a lot of kind

8:56

of core OC fans.

8:59

And this is where our lives converge. You were

9:01

named one of the sexiest men in the world, which

9:03

of course, I technically

9:05

wasn't, but I could have been. Wait,

9:09

wait, wait, wait a minute. You weren't ever technically? I don't think

9:11

I applied that year. I think I withdrew my application.

9:14

Oh, that was it. And I didn't sit for the interview.

9:17

And so it was, so anyway, I'm glad you got

9:19

it because I think one of us should have for sure. I

9:22

wanna thank you. This is, I went on because I wanted

9:24

to thank you for not competing

9:26

with me. I appreciate it. Yeah, it's about time.

9:28

It's

9:29

about time you acknowledge that, but

9:31

I wasn't gonna say anything, but it's cool. It's

9:33

fine. But that's gotta be like,

9:35

here we are, very intellectual

9:37

family studying finance, decided I wanna

9:39

go into acting. And then a few years later here,

9:42

you're like on the cover of People

9:44

and Us Magazine and you're

9:47

a celebrity. Here's

9:49

the reason I'm asking the question. It's like

9:51

you're clearly a very serious, smart

9:54

person with real intelligence

9:56

and pedigree, and then all of a sudden you're

9:58

like teen idol. And how did that?

9:59

How did that fit you? How did that feel

10:02

when that was kind of like who you sort

10:05

of became to a lot of people? Yeah,

10:08

it not well is how it fit me in the

10:10

sense that

10:12

Man talk about imposter syndrome. I felt

10:15

ill-suited for this

10:17

job that look

10:19

deeply grateful Of course I mean it's kind of like

10:22

you know capturing lightning in a bottle when you

10:24

it was almost literally my my first one

10:27

of my first Jobs on camera certainly

10:29

by far the biggest and it you know just happened

10:31

to hit the zeitgeist and take off and

10:34

yet I

10:35

Was this you know college

10:37

graduate degree in economics and foreign

10:40

affairs? I was

10:42

basically thinking you know what

10:44

I'm gonna try this acting thing if

10:46

it doesn't work out At least I tried it when

10:48

I'm young you know, I mean regrets later

10:51

on but I genuinely Expected you

10:53

know, I'll probably end up. I don't know go to law school

10:55

at some point I'm a lawyer like my father's on that. I don't

10:57

know but I figured I had to try it

10:59

then and I and I

11:01

Look, I mean I tried hard and

11:03

I worked on my skills and I'm proud

11:06

of those skills, but there's always a lot of luck involved

11:08

in Hollywood, so I

11:10

Had this feeling through most of

11:13

my career actually Although it went

11:15

down over time. I'm just not

11:17

a being an imposter, you know And I think but I think that's actually

11:20

fairly common amongst actors. Yeah and and

11:22

a lot of public figures Yeah, I say it like this You're

11:25

like

11:26

no one really deserves Public

11:29

attention, right? I think that's kind of like a fake thing.

11:31

There's no like real and so it's

11:34

hard

11:35

Not to feel like you shouldn't

11:37

be there. Look you're right. Why did I get

11:39

this? Why did I get this? Yeah, it's

11:41

part of what is interesting about Listen,

11:44

we're gonna talk about the book you wrote it's

11:46

just sort of reflections and how actors

11:49

and famous people are perceived in society

11:51

as

11:53

People that either you should listen to or or

11:56

people maybe you shouldn't take them seriously because

11:58

and I had this conversation

13:54

The

14:00

elders trick all of the adults with

14:03

an appeal to ego and status

14:06

worship. Only the smartest people,

14:08

the people of Hyah Station can see these imaginary

14:11

clothes we leave. And the second thing, the

14:13

thing that had the most impact on me was

14:15

at the height of the stories, the emperors gallivanting

14:17

through town naked and the

14:19

commoners, the

14:21

adults pretend not to notice. It's

14:24

a child who calls out the

14:26

fact that he's naked. The only one brave enough to speak

14:28

truth is someone who doesn't know he's being brave. That is

14:30

just the truth. Yeah, well, it's hard not

14:32

to put myself in as a child, right? Like,

14:35

who am I? I'm an actor, I haven't

14:38

looked at my economics degree or done much with

14:40

it in 20 years, right? And

14:43

yet at the same time, what

14:46

if I'm right? What

14:48

if I'm right that this is potentially the biggest

14:50

Ponzi scheme in history? That's a good story. And

14:53

it'll be an adventure. And I'm a mildly

14:57

depressed middle aged guy, desperate

14:59

need and pandemic lockdown, my

15:01

industry on ice, like, why not have an adventure?

15:04

So I think that was kind of how I fell into

15:07

it. And then it was interesting, I fell into it

15:09

without really being able to articulate what

15:11

fascinated me or why

15:13

I was well suited for the job. And what I came

15:15

to eventually is that

15:18

easy money, yeah, it's about crypto and casino

15:20

capitalism and fraud, but it's

15:22

money in line. And I know about money, because

15:25

I have an econ degree, I know

15:26

about line because I'm an actor and I do it for a living. I

15:29

know when they're lying to you and

15:31

that their tells were just everywhere.

15:34

And the celebrities selling it, look,

15:36

celebrities hawking stuff doesn't mean that the things are fraudulent,

15:38

but they

15:39

had no clue what

15:41

they were talking about, clearly. Like

15:43

clearly they didn't know, I mean, they're

15:45

not Damon ad not to beat up on him, but like, it was just

15:47

absurd. Let's play it, let's play it so you can,

15:50

I think we got it queued up.

15:51

And in these moments of truth, these

15:55

men and women, as

15:57

they peer over the edge.

15:59

They calm their minds and

16:02

steal their nerves. The

16:05

four simple words that have been whispered by

16:07

the intrepid since the time of the Romans. Fortune

16:11

favors the brave.

16:16

Come on, bro. What are you? You

16:18

a pussy? You're not going to invest in

16:20

cryptocurrency? What are you, stupid? You're not going

16:22

to invest in crypto? What, you're not

16:24

brave enough? Look at these CGI-rendered

16:27

historical things that are happening behind me in

16:29

this empty room that I walk

16:31

around in Burbank in. You know, if

16:33

you invest in crypto, you're like Marco Polo. And

16:36

it's also, you can't stand that going

16:38

down 10%, what kind of wimp are

16:40

you? You can't stand it when you're losing money. This

16:43

is not, you are clearly not cut

16:45

out to be a leader. That's

16:47

right. In crypto, they call it hodl, a hold on

16:49

for dear life, which is like,

16:52

and they say it's not a loss until you sell.

16:55

Which is, woof, is that

16:57

a rough thing to hear as a, as someone

16:59

with even a modicum of understanding of economics

17:01

and finance? Like, it's a loss, dude.

17:04

It's there. It's sitting. You might

17:06

get it back. Yeah. And every day you have a new decision

17:08

to make. And every day you don't sell is another loss you're

17:10

going to take if it goes down. And that's

17:12

the language of gamblers. That's the language of people

17:15

that actually have gambling addiction. And that's what

17:17

studies have shown is that what gamblers do is

17:19

they sell out of positions that they're profiting

17:22

from too early. And they hold on to positions

17:24

that they're losing too long.

17:26

And so, you know, as you go down the research,

17:29

what we really need to talk about here, one of the things we need

17:31

to talk about is toxic masculinity and

17:33

gambling addiction, which disproportionately affects

17:36

men and young men.

17:38

Okay. Let's take one quick break here

17:40

and talk about

17:42

after the break, some of the psychology that's

17:45

at play

17:46

in crypto and how famous

17:48

people like yourself have a role to

17:50

play in that psychology.

17:53

Thank you.

18:01

Let me tell you how I buy furniture. When

18:04

Lotta and I moved to California a couple years ago, we

18:06

were really excited about arranging our new

18:08

space. We didn't want to spend a ton of money. We wanted to find

18:11

great furniture. And somebody recommended

18:13

an article to us. And

18:15

now that I'm shopped here, this is my go-to place.

18:17

I think I've mentioned before that we

18:20

bought this amazing outdoor

18:22

furniture set from Article, and it is cool. And

18:25

to give you an update, since that time, we now have bought

18:27

a beautiful lamp that's sitting right behind me, and

18:30

an awesome desk chair.

18:31

I think I'm getting addicted because the prices

18:33

are so reasonable. They're 100%

18:36

online.

18:37

The quality is awesome. And

18:40

if you just scroll through Article, it's

18:42

a ton of fun. They offer mid-century

18:44

modern, which is our favorite, coastal,

18:47

industrial, Scandinavian,

18:50

boho designs, balancing style, quality,

18:52

and price perfectly. It's

18:55

no secret that comedian Sam B. is pro-choice.

19:18

Yes, that choice. But also not just

19:20

that choice. Sam is pro-choices.

19:23

Those crazy, life-altering decisions that shift

19:25

our life path and bring us to where we are today. Her

19:28

next choice? Starting her new podcast with

19:30

Lemonade Media called Choice Words, where

19:32

she interviews celebrities, politicians, and people

19:35

she admires about the biggest decisions they

19:37

made in their lives.

19:38

She'll get into the gratitude or regret that

19:40

accompanies each of their decisions and look

19:42

at how that one moment impacted their life

19:45

today.

19:45

Choice Words is out now wherever you get your

19:47

podcasts.

21:59

today it's AI. Right. And today

22:02

it's AI. Although it's interesting, it was

22:04

crypto, a lot of the crypto grows privited to AI,

22:06

which, which does make me somewhat skeptical

22:09

of I think AI obviously is a real thing,

22:11

whereas crypto is basically not. But

22:13

AI also, I think has been overhyped. But anyway,

22:15

um,

22:17

yeah, I started I realized, hey, I think they were

22:19

in a bubble. And, and I think

22:22

it's better to be on the other side of that, on

22:24

the short side. And that then my buddy

22:27

of mine came to me and said, I should buy Bitcoin. And he

22:29

had given me the worst financial advice of my life

22:31

in my 20s. And encouraged me to

22:33

invest in what I think was a penny stock pump and dump.

22:36

He wasn't trying to scam me, he lost money too. But

22:39

I took it as a counter indicator, you know, somebody

22:41

was telling me to invest in it that I

22:44

that I love to death. He's one of my best friends. Who's on

22:46

the other side of these bets? Who's on the other side of these

22:48

bets? Okay, that helps me. But you decided

22:50

to speak out, which is

22:52

like you arrived at this point of view, you

22:54

had a platform and you and you kind of

22:57

said, I want to speak out and you could have

22:59

been wrong. I mean, like there was a probably

23:01

a 10% chance in your mind that, huh,

23:04

maybe I'll end up being wrong. And maybe

23:06

this bubble will just continue for

23:08

the foreseeable future. So it was

23:10

kind of a risk. And you also I was more than 10% in

23:12

my mind. I mean, in my mind, there was no interest

23:15

or maybe the 10 or maybe that 10% was such

23:17

a heavy weight, right? If I was wrong,

23:19

this was gonna be really embarrassing, right? It's gonna destroy

23:21

my career. Right? Yeah.

23:23

So you took that risk, you know, but you you put

23:25

something out there, you were very clear, you were

23:27

very bold, you were saying it before most

23:30

people were, you know, said it, I think there may have

23:32

been people who agreed with you, but who were like, I'm

23:34

not sure I'm going to stand up and say this. And

23:36

these were people, Larry David, Matt

23:38

Damon, Tom Brady. And

23:41

of course, there's a bunch of Cowboys online who just cheer

23:43

this stuff up. So you were walking into a bit of a quagmire

23:46

potentially. Yeah. And I was really nervous about

23:48

it at the time. And you know, crypto, for

23:50

all its stupidity, and there's a lot of stupidity

23:53

behind the scenes,

23:53

there's real criminals involved here.

23:56

I mean, crypto really is only good for gambling

23:59

and, and criminal.

23:59

activity and so there are

24:02

serious people behind them now i have not

24:04

gotten death threats myself but other skeptics

24:06

have they been dogs

24:08

things like that and away in what i realize

24:11

is my public figure actually helps

24:13

protect me i don't think people want

24:15

to mess with me as much because yeah

24:19

i'm pretty i'm i can call them out directly

24:21

and i also have ties to this point you

24:23

know x law enforcement officials and current law

24:25

enforcement officials and you know would you play

24:27

the tough deal on the sea and the plates of cops

24:30

i mean what's interesting i you know in and i realize

24:32

that was an advantage of mine and i put in the book

24:34

by like the way i got connected to sandpaper

24:36

fried is actually through that he

24:39

gripped of rose are are notoriously

24:42

braggadocio isn't talk all kinds of smack

24:44

and on online at

24:46

usually under pseudonyms which is

24:48

pretty funny right anybody who's like you're

24:50

not comfortable being themselves but very

24:53

comfortable talking trash is always i got code

24:55

seems like a given the game away my opinion but anyway

24:58

to give your yet that's it's all that stuff

25:00

but but i put out this tweet as

25:02

i was kind of midway through my journey and been writing articles

25:04

which hint of solomon about it and

25:07

i was like own try something out and i was like

25:10

if any of you crypto rose want to come at me

25:12

you know go for it would just remember

25:14

a couple words don't mess

25:17

and i got all kinds of like before

25:19

it was pure i was so stupid but of course

25:22

it works like a charm and as ashley

25:24

when sandbank been freed replied to me he

25:26

replied to me with kind of a

25:28

nonsensical tweet about have you ever thought

25:30

about the numbers going up exclamation

25:32

point question mark exclamation point question mark i

25:35

had thought about that sam yes i do you

25:37

think but he started following me on twitter

25:39

and so i followed him back and then he started

25:42

dna me and jacob and nuts

25:44

i will i'll have interviewing him so

25:46

it's really fascinating to me was

25:48

been such an exercise in how

25:50

in there are a of parallels to trump in the whole

25:52

mega movement it's these are bullies

25:55

and they survive because

25:57

most of us

25:59

are not it's incentivized to speak

26:01

out right the vast majority of the public did not

26:03

buy crypto 80% or so,

26:06

but they had no reason to like

26:07

Research it or go into it The only people who

26:09

did were people that were profiting from it, right?

26:12

And they were also the people hiding behind pseudonyms

26:15

who were going to berate you for

26:17

not, you know You're an idiot. You're

26:19

just a dumb actor. I was called a reality TV

26:21

star, which is interesting I didn't know that I was ever on a reality

26:23

TV show. Um, that's barely a bigger

26:25

insult than just being an actor Yeah, yeah, exactly.

26:28

Well, they didn't even know how to Google correctly which

26:30

made me think like they weren't that genius

26:32

tech-savvy geniuses But

26:34

you got to speak up and you know play

26:37

playground logic really applies What do you do with a

26:39

bully you punch him in the face and

26:41

then you

26:42

know, see what happens Like these

26:44

guys were really it was just a house of cards.

26:46

It was all gonna come down and sooner or later I could have been

26:48

wrong in the timing and I was initially it was a little

26:50

early But eventually it had to go away

26:52

economically because because it's a Ponzi scheme

26:55

Okay, let's take one more break and Come

26:58

back and let's talk about these

27:01

celebrities who endorsed crypto

27:03

and What kind of situation

27:05

there and now and maybe

27:08

if there's a lesson or two that they might have learned we'll

27:10

be right back

27:11

You

27:20

It's no secret that comedian Sam B is pro-choice

27:23

Yes that choice but also not just

27:25

that choice Sam is pro choices

27:28

Those crazy life-altering decisions that shift

27:30

our life path and bring us to where we are today

27:33

Her next choice starting her new podcast

27:35

with lemonada media called choice words where

27:37

she interviews celebrities Politicians and

27:39

people she admires about the biggest decisions

27:42

they made in their lives

27:43

She'll get into the gratitude or regret that

27:45

accompanies each of their decisions and look

27:47

at how that one moment impacted their life

27:50

today

27:50

Choice words is out now wherever you get your

27:52

podcasts. I Remember

27:55

just standing in the shower and saying to myself

27:58

out loud just like keep hearing it Your

28:00

brother is dead. Your brother is dead. This

28:03

is Last Day, a show about the moments

28:05

that change us. I'm your

28:07

host, Stephanie Whittleswax. Join

28:10

me as we laugh and cry and laugh

28:13

cry our way through stories of survival,

28:15

resilience, and transformation.

28:18

Last Day is out now wherever you

28:21

get your podcasts.

28:36

So I did an episode of this

28:38

show a while

28:40

back

28:41

with really focusing on the one thing that

28:43

offended me

28:44

the most about cryptocurrency. And

28:47

it's one of the real reasons I wanted to talk to you. And

28:49

it was that the ads seem

28:52

to have one clear message.

28:54

Don't do your homework.

28:57

And

28:58

to me, the pinnacle was the commercial from Steph Curry.

29:00

And I'll read just read to what he said. I'm

29:02

not an expert. I don't need to be with

29:05

the FTX app. Everything I need

29:07

to buy, sell and trade crypto

29:10

safely. And that was Curry and

29:12

and Shaq actually who did who did some of the voiceover.

29:15

And

29:16

what really bothered me

29:19

was I don't doesn't offend me if someone

29:21

wants to speculate with their own money, if

29:23

they're fully informed and are

29:25

prepared to lose that money. But telling

29:27

people you don't need to get educated because I

29:29

Steph Curry will tell you that there are other experts

29:32

out there and you just rely on them. And

29:34

by the way, in this case, it happened to be FTX, which is unfortunate

29:36

for him. But it may be it may

29:38

be wonder

29:40

like Larry David is

29:42

not a dumb guy

29:44

when their agents present them these

29:46

endorsement opportunities. Say, hey,

29:48

we've got these guys want to pay you a lot of money

29:50

to go stand on TV and have this thing. How

29:53

much homework do these guys do? How much homework do they

29:55

ask their agents and managers to do?

29:57

I mean, I don't know. And it would rather.

30:00

very, you know, amongst the people. But my

30:02

guess having been in Hollywood for two decades is very

30:04

little.

30:07

You know, if people will be like, why did all

30:09

these celebrities Hawk crypto? And I'm

30:11

like, it's pretty simple, they got paid

30:13

in real money to convince you to take

30:15

your real money and turn it into something else. Now,

30:18

some of the celebrities ended up getting scammed themselves,

30:21

which is kind of ironic. You know, Tom Brady,

30:23

apparently, according to the other times also, like

30:25

lost some money. But I

30:27

mean, cold comfort for me, because they

30:30

were, they were effectively providing

30:32

financial advice, they can say they weren't, but that was

30:34

pretty much what they were doing. And they're not licensed financial

30:36

advisors. I don't think any of these

30:39

guys were thinking about it very, very deeply.

30:41

And their agents weren't were

30:43

definitely not doing the right thing. The

30:46

marketing campaign, look, how did the thing work?

30:48

The crypto exchanges got a bunch of

30:50

money? Where did they get their money from?

30:52

From you from the retail traders, and then

30:54

they hired the advertising agencies

30:57

to come up with the marketing campaigns. And then

30:59

they went to the agencies and they said, we have $10

31:03

million to pay the celebrity. And

31:06

the agents look at $1 million, they

31:08

take 10% for free for

31:10

nothing. And the actor

31:12

or entertainer looks at a massive payday

31:15

for no work. Right. I mean, Matt Damon

31:17

was probably done by lunch with that commercial,

31:19

he had to walk through a tunnel for 20 seconds.

31:23

And it's easy money, you know, but again,

31:25

it just goes to like, look,

31:27

the celebrities are not the root problem. They're

31:29

just the megaphone necessary. At the

31:31

end of this lifecycle of a Ponzi, right,

31:33

you need to appeal to the most people possible. So you

31:36

get the most famous people possible. It was actually

31:38

indicator that eventually you'd run out. Eventually,

31:40

every scheme ends because you run out of suckers, right? And so

31:42

at the end, it goes parabolically up, and then

31:44

it was parabolically down. Exactly. So right,

31:46

it was really, I think you said that incredibly well,

31:48

which is, you know, we'd already gotten

31:50

the people involved to put the money

31:53

in who were going

31:55

to do it because they loved it or believed in it or

31:57

had some ideology that the

31:59

Fed was evil.

31:59

and now it's time to go. We need

32:02

more money in this thing. And we haven't even begun

32:04

to tap the consumer market yet. And

32:06

so they went to the top of the list. I

32:08

mean, these are A-listers, Damon

32:10

Brady, Curry, Larry

32:13

David.

32:14

But I'm curious, I don't know if you've talked

32:16

to

32:17

that or any of these guys since then. I'm curious,

32:20

aside from the legal troubles that some of them are

32:23

in, is the lesson for them, or

32:25

do you think they're feeling that there is

32:27

a lesson, are they feeling a sense of embarrassment,

32:29

are they feeling like

32:32

they're gonna be a new process next time the manager

32:34

presents to me something? I mean, how

32:36

do you think this story gets told from that standpoint?

32:39

I genuinely don't know. I'm

32:41

assuming, you know, I'm not impugning

32:44

the motives of these guys. They obviously

32:46

didn't intend for people to get swindled. So

32:48

I do have, I

32:51

both feel, of

32:52

course, justified in calling them out at the time,

32:55

and

32:57

satisfaction on some level that I

33:00

was right, but on another level,

33:02

I have a little bit of sympathy and empathy. I've

33:04

been asking publicly and privately

33:07

for a celebrity to talk to me, because I think

33:09

it's actually an opportunity for

33:12

sort of, not to be too cute about it,

33:14

but for healing, because celebrities are just like us.

33:16

They're just regular people. So I

33:18

take it from a quasi-celebrity himself. Like,

33:21

you know, people make mistakes. And if you just owned

33:23

up to it and was like, look, man, this is what happened.

33:26

They came to me, I didn't know

33:27

about it. I was told it was the future

33:30

of money, just like everybody else. And

33:32

it was gonna do all these great things. And so, you know, I

33:34

did it. Now, I think probably the reason they're not doing

33:36

it is liability is my guess. Their lawyers are

33:38

telling them they can't, yeah. Yeah, which is

33:41

really shit, but, you know, probably the truth.

33:43

And when it's all over, there's probably a chapter in a book

33:45

that they'll write about it. And look,

33:47

you're absolutely right. It's something people can't make mistakes.

33:50

The thing that I think pissed you off,

33:53

pissed me off,

33:54

was they weren't making mistakes for themselves. They were

33:56

convincing people who love the Golden State

33:58

Warriors. Yeah.

33:59

Well, we should probably mention, I mean,

34:02

a lot of these ads were targeted towards

34:04

specific communities. The black community was heavily

34:06

targeted by LeBron James.

34:09

Ads featuring LeBron James and Steph Curry,

34:12

Jay-Z and Jack Dorsey of Twitter

34:14

set up a Bitcoin Academy in Marcy

34:17

Gardens where Jay-Z grew up to try

34:19

and convince people

34:21

in public housing to buy Bitcoin. I didn't know

34:23

that. Yeah, it's in the book. If you... Well,

34:26

I don't even know if it ever even happened, but they announced

34:28

it. Jack owns a

34:29

bunch of Bitcoins, who is forever shilling Bitcoin.

34:32

And Jack, I mean, here's the thing. We've

34:34

got to stop assuming the billionaires

34:36

are smart. They're not. And they

34:39

might be smart about one thing where they made money,

34:41

possibly, but they also might've just been lucky. But

34:43

they definitely aren't necessarily smart about other

34:45

things. And so Jack, he

34:48

doesn't know jack shit about economics.

34:50

He was talking about hyper inflation in the US

34:53

and how Bitcoin was an

34:55

inflation hedge at its height. It

34:57

turned out not to be. It's the opposite. Yeah. And

35:00

if the US ever experiences hyperinflation,

35:03

good luck with your magical bits

35:05

of computer

35:05

code. If the US experiences hyperinflation,

35:08

it's game over. So magical

35:10

bits of computer code are not going to save you. But

35:13

it was really galling to me that they were targeting

35:15

the Black community and minorities. And

35:17

if you go... I was just doing this as a reporter.

35:20

If you try to find the Bitcoin ATMs

35:22

where you can take cash and buy

35:25

Bitcoin, they're in minority neighborhoods

35:28

predominantly. And minorities

35:30

suffered the most in the sense that they were

35:33

disproportionately late to the game and

35:35

got

35:35

in at the tail end of

35:38

the crypto hype and to have lost more on average

35:40

than others. So you're saying it's the same place. Lottery tickets

35:43

were sold. Yeah.

35:45

Because that's casino capitalism, right?

35:47

It resonates with folks because they

35:49

don't feel any other way to make money, right?

35:52

Yeah. On some level, right? It's like desperation

35:54

and like, hey, man, if

35:56

you just put your money in, you

35:58

might make a fortune, right?

35:59

And that as a lottery ticket,

36:02

we can talk about the lottery, it's not necessarily a great system,

36:04

but at least they're only a dollar a piece. With

36:06

crypto it's like, invest your life savings in

36:09

this thing that might go to zero. It was pretty,

36:12

it pissed me off. My dad played the lottery

36:14

when I was a kid because he just loved to dream

36:16

about winning. He just, it was so worth it for

36:18

him to just like. And that actually

36:20

has, economists have like tried to quantify

36:23

that or like try to, like that has a,

36:25

I'm not totally against that if you do it in proportion,

36:28

right? You know what I mean? One ticket a week

36:30

or whatever, and you can dream about

36:32

it. But like,

36:33

if you're putting your life savings into it, that's

36:36

not a good use of your life savings. No,

36:38

people were allocating real

36:40

money. I know we've got, we're short on time. You

36:42

know, I live, and you may

36:44

as well, I live 15 minutes or 20 minutes

36:47

from crypto.com arena that

36:49

used to be called Staples Center. And so

36:51

the thing that I wonder is like,

36:54

how are we gonna remember this era?

36:56

Like, are we gonna look back and go, God, remember that

36:59

fricking moment in time when it was called crypto.com

37:01

arena? And like, that

37:04

really marks the year 2021, 22, 23 or

37:06

whatever. I'm curious

37:09

when we look back on this, will it be like

37:12

this sort of

37:13

really bizarre moment in time or

37:15

where do you think we go from here? Yeah, that's a great

37:17

question. And I'm always humble about that

37:19

in the sense that I can't predict the future any more than

37:21

anyone else. And I think,

37:23

cause I think the future obviously is unwritten.

37:26

What is happening now is

37:28

that Wall Street sees that there's money

37:30

to be made in just

37:33

facilitating the trades. So there

37:35

are these ETFs that

37:37

they're applying for exchange traded funds, like BlackRock's

37:40

got one and are just trying to get one.

37:43

And so if those get approved, and

37:45

I really, really hope they don't, that

37:49

would allow the big players to invest

37:51

in crypto. And you could have institutional

37:54

players. For all the hype, big

37:56

money by and large did not touch

37:58

crypto. Crypto tried to make you feel

38:01

like it did, but for the most part it was not. And

38:03

that's why you saw one of these crypto companies just

38:05

imploded. It actually didn't affect the regulated

38:08

financial sector that much, although some

38:10

of the banks that went down, actually all

38:12

three of the banks have ties to crypto. That's

38:14

a subject for another question.

38:16

But if these

38:18

ETFs get

38:19

approved, grandma's pension

38:22

could be tied up in this

38:24

thing, which economically speaking has zero

38:26

of a value. That would be a disaster. So

38:29

that's why I'm speaking up. I feel like, you

38:31

know, to use like, if

38:33

I'm like Michael Burry, you know,

38:35

in 2005, saying,

38:37

if you guys let this go, keep going, it's

38:40

gonna be bad. I'm at least

38:42

a public person and I've got this book and

38:44

a doc to like put the word out. But

38:47

my hope is to

38:49

kill it, not in the sense of the, I don't care about

38:51

the technology, blockchain's just a ledger. If

38:54

blockchain ever does anything productive, which

38:56

I'm highly skeptical of, given its myriad

39:00

inefficiencies, then fine. But

39:02

I am really pissed off about the fraud. And

39:05

so my hope is, yeah, my hope is we look back on

39:07

it and crypto was Beanie

39:09

Babies. It was Beanie Babies for 2021. Well,

39:12

let's hope that the SEC

39:14

and the Congress, who have the

39:16

power to put down the regulations here

39:20

so that this works like everything else

39:23

does, disclosure and everything else, listen

39:25

to you and get on it. Well, I wanna

39:27

let you go and get on with your day. I really appreciate

39:29

you coming into the bubble. It was really great

39:32

talking to you and a lot of fun. And

39:34

I wish you a lot of luck. The

39:36

book for everyone is called

39:38

Easy Money. It is out, it

39:40

is a great read. It's a lot of fun.

39:43

Thank you so much, Andy. It's great to be on here, man. Appreciate

39:45

it.

39:46

Thank you. Thank

40:00

you, Ben,

40:01

for coming on the show. Thank you all for

40:03

listening. If you want a little sneak

40:05

peek

40:06

at what's coming up,

40:08

the eminent

40:09

Zeke Emanuel will be on next

40:11

week. Zeke and I will be

40:14

talking about what he sees

40:17

as some of the things that are gonna shape the

40:20

future of healthcare.

40:22

What's gonna change the healthcare system

40:24

that we so rely on? He

40:26

is a provocative person, it's

40:28

fun,

40:29

but he's also challenging, and I thought it might be interesting

40:32

for this episode to get a panel

40:35

of experts on

40:36

to listen and interrogate him

40:38

as part of this episode.

40:40

So you'll hear that next week.

40:42

We also will have an episode with

40:45

the Surgeon General of the state of California

40:47

to talk about maternal health and maternal mortality

40:49

and what's going on with this crisis

40:52

in the country.

40:54

Andy Cohen, the new head of the CDC, will be on as

40:56

we move into August,

40:59

and plenty more great shows. We've got a lot

41:01

of good stuff planned for listeners

41:03

of the show, so tell your friends.

41:05

And please, please, please, please, please have

41:07

a great summer, enjoy the time with your

41:09

family and friends, relax,

41:13

and be good to yourself. Talk

41:15

to you next week.

41:16

Thank you for listening to

41:19

In the Bubble.

41:21

If

41:24

you like what you heard, rate and review,

41:26

and most importantly, tell a friend

41:28

about the show. Tell anyone about the show. We're

41:31

a production of Lemonado Media. Kyle

41:33

Shealy is the senior producer of our show. He's

41:35

the main guy, and he rocks it with

41:37

me every week. The mix is by

41:39

Noah Smith, and he's a wizard. He

41:41

does all the technical stuff, and he's a cool guy. Steve

41:44

Nelson is the vice president of weekly content.

41:46

He's well above average. And of course,

41:49

the ultimate big bosses are Jessica

41:51

Cordova

41:51

Kramer and Stephanie Whittleswax.

41:54

They are wonderful, inspiring, and

41:57

they put the sugar in the lemonade. They

41:59

executive produce. to show along with me. Our

42:01

theme was composed by Dan Mallod and Oliver

42:04

Hill, and additional music is

42:06

by Ivan Kariev. You can find out

42:08

more about our show on social media, at

42:11

Lemonada Media, where you can also get

42:13

a transcript of the show and buy

42:15

some In The Bubble gear. Email me directly

42:18

at andy at lemonadamedia.com. You

42:20

can find my Twitter feed at

42:23

ASlavet, and you can download In

42:25

The Bubble wherever you get your podcasts, or

42:27

listen to ad-free on Amazon Music

42:29

with

42:29

your Prime membership. Thank you for

42:32

listening.

42:38

Does keeping up with the

42:40

news cycle feel like a daunting task? Join

42:43

me, V Spear, on V Interesting

42:45

from Lemonada Media, with fascinating

42:48

guests like Mercury Stardust, Taylor

42:50

Lorenz, and Hank Green. We'll break

42:53

down what you need to know to be the most

42:55

interesting person in any room. We'll

42:57

find the stories that give us a reason for optimism

43:00

among all the doom-scrolling headlines.

43:03

I want us to be smart together. V Interesting

43:06

has new episodes out every Friday on

43:08

Amazon Music, Apple,

43:10

Spotify, or wherever you get

43:12

your

43:12

podcasts. Last Day from Lemonada

43:14

Media explores the moments that change us.

43:17

Those times where you look back and say, whoa,

43:19

one day I was myself, and the next I

43:21

wasn't. I'm Stephanie Wittles-Wax, and

43:24

I have seen time and time again how sharing

43:26

these stories can change lives. So, do

43:28

you have a moment in your life that changed you, fundamentally

43:31

and forever? What happened? How

43:33

did you move through it? And how did you eventually

43:35

start again? If you'd like to share