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1:25

This is In the Bubble with

1:28

Andy Slavitt.

1:30

Hi everybody. Hope you had a nice time

1:33

over Labor Day weekend and holiday. It's

1:35

always a transitional weekend

1:37

whether you're kind of moving

1:40

back into work away from the summer,

1:42

whether it's kids off to school or just this sort

1:44

of sense that wow, the year is three

1:47

quarters over, we're moving towards the fall.

1:50

It's always a transitional

1:51

weekend. It

1:55

is hopefully also a time where you get to spend time with the family.

2:00

I had a nice

2:03

time. I actually had a family wedding in

2:05

Chicago. And so I went into

2:08

Chicago where I grew up and saw

2:11

a whole bunch of relatives, which was super nice.

2:13

And of course my mom lives in Chicago. So

2:17

got to see her, my oldest son was there. One

2:19

of the things I noticed was there

2:22

are, in my family situation

2:25

now, some of us are getting

2:27

older and there's a lot more younger people.

2:29

So today's show is

2:32

about how to talk to your kids

2:35

about climate change, which

2:38

is the big generational divide.

2:42

It is a fundamental and vital issue. And I thought

2:44

about this as I saw all of these younger

2:47

people and whenever

2:49

I communicate with our boys about

2:52

this sort of changing world. And

2:54

I don't think a lot of us know how

2:57

to talk to our kids about

2:59

climate and climate change. And it's complicated by

3:02

a few

3:03

scientific factors and a few emotional factors.

3:06

You know, the world we're living in is increasingly

3:09

more theirs than ours. Yet

3:12

we, and I'll classify

3:14

we as boomers and Gen Xers and

3:18

a growing number of millennials,

3:21

have all the political power.

3:23

We make all the real decisions in the world

3:26

and we have much more

3:28

to lose when the status quo

3:31

changes. This is always

3:33

the case, I

3:34

think. It's why people look

3:37

more conservative as they age.

3:40

I don't think it's actually that they become more

3:42

conservative, I just think that younger

3:44

generations feel the need for change

3:47

with more urgency. And people

3:50

who, as they get older,

3:51

they may believe the same things they once believed, but

3:54

the kind of change that younger people see is necessary

3:58

isn't as obvious to people.

3:59

If you get older and when this

4:02

mixes with policies around

4:04

climate, it's an

4:06

especially interesting brew

4:09

Because what we believe in how we

4:11

behave

4:12

Need to be considered in a different light this

4:14

notion

4:16

of irreparable damage Makes

4:19

this a very hard issue to deal

4:21

with irreparable damage the things we

4:23

have done and will continue to do to

4:26

warm the planet

4:28

can't really be reversed and That

4:32

means

4:33

that how we behave now.

4:36

It's gonna have an enormous impact an

4:38

unchangeable impact on

4:41

How younger people grow up? It's

4:43

not easy to ask them to fix

4:47

What they feel we've broken

4:49

the reality is and this I

4:51

think is important

4:53

Recognition is that

4:55

we didn't make the changes that we needed to make 20 years

4:58

ago when many of us do we should we

5:02

the adults let the problem

5:04

get worse and worse and Now

5:08

whether we go through a 10-year transition

5:10

towards renewable energy or a 15 or 20 year

5:14

transition to renewable energy Makes

5:16

a pretty significant difference in the lives

5:19

of future generations

5:21

Do you believe do we believe that we need to answer for

5:23

that? Do

5:24

we know how to talk to our kids or grandchildren about

5:27

that? Do we believe that they deserve an answer

5:29

for that? It's very much

5:31

on my mind

5:32

the morality of climate policy

5:37

Also doesn't only pit generation against

5:39

generation. It also pits

5:41

the developed world

5:42

against the undeveloped world

5:45

Can't say how many times in the US we hear

5:48

someone I hear someone say Well,

5:50

nothing we really met do matters

5:52

about climate if China and India don't

5:55

reduce fossil fuels Why should

5:57

we suffer?

5:59

now in China

5:59

In India, they have their own version of this, which is

6:02

the US did all

6:04

of their polluting to grow their economy

6:07

to the place they did, and now they

6:09

want us

6:10

not to pollute. They want us to stop because

6:14

problems got so bad that they created when

6:16

it's their turn to grow our economies.

6:20

So look, as long as nobody wants to make

6:22

the necessary sacrifices

6:25

to put a tax on emissions

6:28

to ensure that it's paid for by the right

6:30

people, the people who have enjoyed the prosperity,

6:33

we are essentially saying to the developed world and

6:36

to all the generations that follow us that

6:39

we could have done something,

6:41

that we knew about it, but

6:43

we were able to justify doing nothing,

6:47

and we just pointed the finger

6:49

and kept going. So

6:53

we found a guest today who we

6:55

wanted to talk to about this topic.

6:58

Her name is Elizabeth Cripps.

7:01

She's a mother, she's a writer, she's an activist,

7:03

she's a philosopher, she teaches at the University

7:05

of Edinburgh,

7:07

where she researches climate

7:09

justice, and she's talking about

7:12

this issue in

7:14

a new book she's got, which is written

7:16

very much in perspective of a mom

7:19

and a philosopher.

7:22

Now, before I get into it with Elizabeth,

7:25

I wanna ask you something. Rate

7:28

our show on Apple or whatever

7:30

platform you listen to it on, rate our show, and

7:34

tell your friends about it. It

7:37

sends a message

7:38

that we can talk about hard things

7:40

like grownups when more people listen

7:43

to this show, that we can talk

7:46

about hard things like grownups. And

7:49

by the way, there's nothing more grownup than

7:51

thinking about our children, and that's

7:53

what we're gonna talk about with Elizabeth.

8:05

Elizabeth Krebs, welcome to The Bubble. Thank

8:08

you very much for having me. Now we

8:11

are talking to you both as a philosopher,

8:14

a professional capacity, and as

8:16

a parent. I understand how one

8:18

becomes a parent. How does one become a philosopher?

8:22

In my case, actually through

8:24

an interest in the sort

8:26

of ethics of climate change, I did philosophy

8:28

as an undergraduate degree and then decided

8:31

to go back into academia to

8:33

study these in questions about the environment

8:36

and what we owe to each other in that context.

8:38

So for me, the two very much went together,

8:40

but I'm sure lots of people have very

8:43

different

8:43

roots into it. And what does it mean to

8:45

you to be a philosopher? Like what do you think your

8:47

primary role is in the conversation

8:50

and in what we end up not just conversation,

8:52

but how we move forward as a world?

8:55

I think it's important

8:58

to have a perspective

9:00

which really kind of pushes down

9:03

on the questions that we're asking

9:05

and says, well, look, what are the assumptions

9:07

that are being made here? What are the core

9:10

values at stake? And tries

9:12

to move beyond the kind of very polarized

9:15

political debate that we have about these questions

9:18

and says, well, no, actually, let's

9:20

go back to some core things that actually we can

9:22

probably all agree on and start

9:24

from there and then use very clear

9:27

reasoning, moving often

9:29

between a kind of process of more abstract

9:31

argument and some of our core intuitions

9:34

as people and in my case in this

9:36

book as a parent and moving

9:39

using both of those so that we have an argument

9:42

that isn't swayed in the same way as a

9:44

lot of the public debates are by what side

9:46

of the political spectrum you happen to

9:48

be on.

9:50

One element of this conversation is

9:52

clearly about

9:55

the world we give our children, what

9:57

we're leaving behind for them and this sort of

9:59

intergenerational relationships

10:02

and responsibilities that inevitably

10:04

ensue. You know, I've

10:07

been trying to think, does

10:09

this feel materially different

10:11

than the world our parents

10:14

handed us?

10:16

You know, I don't wanna look at with rose-colored glasses and

10:18

say that there was nothing to fear or

10:20

that there weren't concerns on the horizon that

10:22

there were. When you look at this,

10:25

do you think this is wholesale or different

10:27

that there is a really significant

10:31

challenge in terms of what our

10:33

next generation is being faced with versus where,

10:36

say, we were?

10:37

I do think there is. I mean,

10:39

previous generations have faced

10:42

enormous challenges and I absolutely

10:44

would not want to understate or underestimate

10:46

them. I do think what

10:49

we face now, what our children face

10:51

now, is certainly potentially a much

10:53

more damaged world than the one that my

10:55

generation inherited. And

10:57

I think that puts us in a position as

11:00

parents, which is perhaps

11:03

historically unusual and certainly sort

11:05

of worrying and dangerous, which is that

11:07

we know that as things stand, the

11:09

world that we're giving our children is less good

11:11

than the one we inherited. And that just seems

11:14

like it's the wrong way round. Naturally,

11:16

we would want things to be progressing for

11:18

the better. But having said that,

11:20

I'm very conscious that

11:22

I make assumptions in

11:25

saying something like that as a relatively privileged

11:27

woman. It's for somebody like

11:29

me who's grown up in a sort of comfortable

11:32

white middle-class life. It

11:34

comes as a bit of a shock to realize that

11:36

actually governments aren't adequately

11:38

protecting our children, that the institutions

11:40

we live in aren't going to make sure that

11:42

they have a decent future unless we start

11:45

taking action. Whereas for

11:47

parents of color, this is something that they've

11:49

been living with and facing for generations,

11:52

the reality

11:52

that they really have to fight to ensure

11:54

that their children get any kind of institutional

11:57

protection. So let's take it through different

11:59

ages. Let's take it. You know, your daughters

12:01

are, if I'm not mistaken, they're kind

12:03

of pre-teen. They are now, yes. The

12:05

oldest is 10 and the younger one is eight.

12:08

So at that age,

12:09

how do you begin to explain? And then

12:11

as they have questions, as they get older, and as they learn more,

12:14

and maybe see some of the things that

12:17

you've said, that we've said, that they're

12:19

going to inherit a world that's scary

12:21

and more troubled, how do you explain how we got where

12:24

we got? I think it starts

12:26

at a younger age, actually. And I tried

12:28

to start it at a younger age. So a sort of awareness

12:31

of the environment and appreciation

12:34

of the value of nature, of other

12:36

species, and also of the challenges

12:38

that different people face is something that we can make

12:41

our children aware of from a younger

12:43

age, just through spending

12:45

time outside, reading stories,

12:48

engaging them. And then as

12:50

they get a bit older, it's often about, on

12:53

the one hand, more local immediate

12:55

environmental challenges that you

12:57

can talk to them about. It's

13:00

important for children to have something positive

13:02

that they can be feeling that they're part of

13:04

to do. So on the one hand,

13:06

often that is going to involve kind of things that

13:08

can be done at a more immediate community level,

13:11

which are often quite fun as well. But

13:13

also I've taken my children on climate

13:15

marches from a relatively young age.

13:18

And I think in a way that's

13:20

important for them. I mean, they don't have the

13:22

full story when they're very young,

13:24

but they have an awareness that this is a challenge

13:27

that their generation will face, that it's unfair

13:30

that they will face it. And for some people

13:32

it will be worse than others, but

13:34

at the same time, by engaging them

13:36

in the marches, the protests, I'm trying to give them

13:39

the message that this is something that we

13:41

can change and that their voice,

13:43

their political voice is very important.

13:46

And then obviously as they get older, it's

13:49

about encouraging

13:51

them to read more about the science,

13:53

to become more aware of it, and

13:56

engaging them with them on more of the kind of more

13:59

nuanced or different. difficult moral questions about

14:01

what exactly should be done or could

14:03

be done or what's at stake. But it's also,

14:06

I think, being aware, especially

14:08

when it comes to teenagers, that sometimes it's

14:10

the children who are doing the educating here.

14:12

Often it's younger people who are really

14:14

clued up on this and at the same

14:16

time also suffer often from

14:19

mental health conditions around it like climate anxiety.

14:22

So I think a lot of what we have to do with parents

14:24

is helping them to manage that.

14:26

Yeah, I want to come

14:28

back to that anxiety part because I think it's

14:31

a very real thing. I guess

14:33

if you think about the

14:35

unfairness that they might feel,

14:38

how do you explain, like, we

14:41

were responsible, you know,

14:43

as they learn more, we had opportunities many

14:45

times over the last four decades

14:49

to do something.

14:50

We didn't, you know, they observed

14:53

the life that we lead and

14:55

that we're not going to be really here to suffer

14:58

the most dire of the consequences. How

15:00

do you have that conversation? I

15:03

think it's a tough conversation to have. I

15:05

mean,

15:06

actually, I think, you know, our intergenerational

15:08

responsibilities go well beyond our responsibilities

15:11

to our own children. So I think this is something that

15:13

all adults should be worrying about

15:15

and focusing on anyway. But

15:18

when it comes to this message

15:20

we give, I think we do

15:22

have to be honest. I don't think this is

15:24

something that we can lie to our children

15:26

about, that we have to be age appropriate

15:28

with it. But at the same time,

15:30

I think that's what you've just

15:33

said. It's an incredibly strong argument

15:36

to parents to say, well,

15:38

look, you, we really need

15:41

to be taking action on this because I

15:43

sure as hell want to be able to explain to my

15:45

children to say, look, this is the challenge we face.

15:47

This is what previous generations have screwed

15:50

up. And this is what I have

15:52

tried to do about it because

15:54

I do accept my responsibility to

15:56

your generation.

15:58

I think it's very difficult. And

16:00

I think that probably the online

16:03

and other kind of generational anger

16:06

towards

16:07

first baby boomers,

16:09

then Gen Xers, which I have to tell you now I

16:11

feel like they're going after me because

16:13

I'm Gen Xer. But you

16:15

know, you see it

16:16

and it's very understandable

16:20

where it comes from. And it's really, it is hard I think

16:22

to know what to say

16:24

because if we were being honest,

16:27

we haven't all been as aware

16:30

of this issue as we

16:32

needed to be. And there

16:34

have been warning signs that,

16:36

you know, the history books will show them. They've

16:39

been going on for even more

16:41

than three or three decades, four or five decades, and

16:44

they were ignored. It's very difficult

16:46

to explain to

16:48

people who you want to turn into

16:50

great citizens

16:52

why that happened. I

16:54

think it is. And as you say,

16:56

I mean, it is about wanting

16:58

to raise our children to be good citizens,

17:00

but also about trying to be

17:02

that ourselves. I

17:05

think one thing that emerges really importantly

17:08

from that is that it's educating

17:10

children about this. It's not just

17:12

about ensuring that they're taught climate

17:15

science, but it's almost

17:17

as much about making sure

17:19

that they understand how politics

17:21

works, you know, how

17:23

different people can have a voice

17:25

in politics, how important it is to

17:28

use one's voice in that. And as you

17:30

say, it is an incredibly difficult

17:33

message. I think there are also

17:36

inspiring or encouraging stories,

17:38

stories about,

17:41

you know, that would at least encourage us to have some

17:43

hope. Things like obviously

17:45

the civil rights movement, the suffragettes.

17:47

There are great movements in the past

17:49

that have succeeded. And I think it's important

17:52

that our children and it really is, you know, the Fridays

17:54

for Future movement, the Sunrise Movement of

17:56

the States is in many ways a sort of successor

17:59

to those.

17:59

great movements for justice in the

18:02

past. So I think it's important

18:04

that we balance when we're talking to our

18:06

children, that we do get that balance of reality

18:10

and

18:11

encouragement that there is still an

18:13

important way in which they can use their voice

18:15

and there are still things that can be done about it.

18:18

Let's take a quick break and we'll come right back

18:20

with Elizabeth Cripps.

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21:56

I guess there's another element of our

21:58

responsibility which makes us

22:01

even a little bit trickier, which is

22:03

that

22:04

we need to be honest with our kids,

22:06

but we also have this

22:08

strong compulsion that our job

22:10

is to keep our kids safe. What's

22:14

the right way to have

22:16

this

22:17

conversation with your kids

22:19

and still feel like

22:22

you are

22:23

demonstrating to them that as a parent, you

22:26

are doing what you can and what you need to protect

22:28

them and for them to feel safe and secure? Because

22:31

I think we know that will help them become happier,

22:34

better adults.

22:36

So I think you're absolutely right. That is, if

22:39

we boiled down what it means

22:41

to be a good parent, keeping our children

22:43

safe is absolutely central

22:46

to that. And actually, that's kind of a key argument

22:49

of what I talk about in my book and a lot of my work on this,

22:51

which is that we just have to start from that

22:54

to understand why it's so important as parents

22:56

that we act on climate change ourselves.

22:59

So it is not something that we can do

23:01

as individuals now. I

23:03

want desperately to be able to keep my own children safe,

23:06

but I can't

23:06

do that on my own. It's something that we can only

23:08

do now by working together to

23:10

change what happens collectively to challenge

23:13

our governments and institutions. So

23:16

I think that's absolutely crucial. But

23:18

the other thing that is absolutely

23:20

right is that it is this difficult

23:23

balance between educating

23:25

and empowering our children about this and

23:28

not wanting to scare them,

23:30

not wanting to make them feel unsafe

23:33

as children. And it

23:36

is a balancing

23:36

act. I think that it's that's important

23:38

to be recognized. But I don't

23:40

buy the argument that says, oh, we shouldn't talk

23:42

to our children at all. It's just terrible parenting

23:45

to scare our children this way, because on

23:48

the one hand, our children are going to need

23:50

to face this. They do need to be educated

23:53

and empowered to be able to deal with this.

23:55

And if this is something that one of the psychologists I spoke

23:57

to, the book actually told me. If

24:00

we don't talk to our children about this, they

24:02

won't think it's not happening. They already know it's

24:04

happening. They will just think it's something

24:07

their parents can't help them with. So

24:09

I think it is extra important that we

24:11

talk to them. The other thing I think is it's really

24:13

worth remembering

24:15

is that you can't really be neutral as a parent.

24:18

If you don't, if we don't talk to them about these

24:20

challenges, and I don't just mean climate change,

24:22

I mean institutionalized racism

24:25

and sexism, other challenges like

24:27

global poverty, anti-biotic resistance,

24:29

if we don't talk to our children about these things,

24:31

they will be getting another message from

24:34

society, messages that tell them that

24:36

girls can only behave in certain ways,

24:38

or that people of color can be treated

24:41

in different ways, or a message that

24:44

says we're perfectly

24:46

entitled in a rich country like this

24:48

to live however we like, it's our money.

24:51

So I think if we don't give our

24:53

children a message about

24:56

the kind of future that we think it's important

24:58

that they do create and that they get to live in, then

25:00

they are going to be getting a different message from someone

25:03

else.

25:03

So you're saying we impart

25:05

our values to them

25:07

both explicitly and implicitly on

25:10

every topic under the sun. They watch how we treat people.

25:13

They hear what we say about how people should be treated. They

25:16

watch how important we fight for dignity

25:18

and fairness and equity, or whether we don't. They

25:21

see those things. And your suggestion here

25:23

is I think right on, which is that it's no

25:25

different with climate. If they see

25:28

us,

25:29

to pick a trade example, indifferent

25:32

about using single-use plastics and

25:34

saying this is not our problem,

25:37

we're fine, then even

25:40

if you don't say anything, the message resonates, right?

25:42

Absolutely. I think it does. I

25:45

would also say I would want

25:47

very much to send my children a message, A,

25:49

that I do care about single-use plastics

25:51

and would try to avoid them where possible,

25:53

but also I think the message is important for

25:56

them to get is that this isn't

25:58

just going to be solved by individuals.

25:59

families worrying about single-use plastics,

26:02

this has to be political. And I

26:04

think that's where it becomes more difficult

26:06

for parents, because a lot of us— Let's

26:07

talk about the politics, because you're right about that

26:10

for sure. This is a collective action. So

26:13

here in the U.S., we just had a Republican

26:16

primary debate. You may have seen

26:18

it. God bless you if you haven't. There

26:20

were, I think, seven

26:23

candidates, eight candidates in stage, and they were all asked

26:26

who in this stage believes

26:28

that there are manmade causes to climate change.

26:31

Not one of them raised their hand. And

26:33

then one of the candidates, Ramaswami,

26:36

I think it was, said more

26:38

people have died from climate

26:41

policies than from climate

26:43

change.

26:44

Now, we live in an age where you can say anything

26:48

you want

26:49

with as much confidence as you can deliver,

26:51

and

26:53

millions of people watch

26:55

you say it. And

26:57

so you're 100% right about you

27:00

better give them good messaging at home because they're going to hear

27:02

some crazy stuff out there.

27:04

But I

27:06

imagine that there are a lot of people who believe

27:08

that because they want to believe that, because

27:11

it's certainly

27:13

easier to believe that

27:15

there's nothing you can do. So

27:19

now you picture that some

27:22

kid in your kid's school is going to repeat that to

27:24

them very confidently.

27:26

And all of a sudden, it does become

27:29

a

27:29

different type of issue. It doesn't become

27:32

just a problem to solve. It

27:34

becomes one where people have deeply

27:36

held views.

27:38

And when kids hear different

27:41

views, they don't know who to believe,

27:43

including that they won't necessarily believe

27:45

their parents are always telling them the straight story either.

27:47

No. And I mean, there's a whole

27:50

different conversation we could have about the

27:52

problems around education

27:54

on climate change and the degree to which the fossil

27:57

fuel industry has been able to manipulate even

27:59

that in.

27:59

in some areas. Politically,

28:02

this is an incredibly

28:04

polarised debate. It's become a matter

28:06

of party politics, completely in the States.

28:09

The example you gave just brings that out perfectly,

28:11

but also here to quite a large extent.

28:14

And that's not coincidence. That's because of the

28:16

deliberate action of vested interests

28:19

to bring that about.

28:20

And by vested interests, you're talking about

28:22

fossil fuel industry. I'm primarily talking about fossil

28:25

fuel companies, yes. I mean, the evidence on

28:27

the degree to which they have done lobbying and tried

28:29

to skew the political process is enormous.

28:32

There's also actually, interestingly, some

28:35

studies have done suggesting that there's

28:37

similar effect or attempts made by

28:39

the big meat and dairy companies. But yes,

28:41

I mean, primarily that the fossil fuel companies.

28:43

But it's also an attractive message. I

28:45

mean, it's a message that finds an audience

28:48

because I think there's

28:49

an audience that wants to say, wait

28:52

a minute, you want me to sacrifice for

28:54

some future set of people I haven't met and a problem

28:56

that I can't really be certain I understand. And

28:59

so, you know, I think it finds its

29:02

audience

29:03

pretty elegantly. I think it does.

29:05

And I think that's why it's also it's

29:07

very helpful to try and simplify,

29:11

if you like, the message for why we should

29:13

care about this. I think it's very easy

29:15

to say, oh, this is something that environmentalists

29:17

worry about and make it sound like it's just

29:20

a kind of niche interest, like any

29:22

other kind of ideological value that people

29:24

might happen to have. But actually,

29:26

when we say, well, this is about the

29:28

violation of human rights, this is about

29:31

acting in a way that kills people, including

29:34

our own children, this is about protecting

29:37

younger generations and enabling them

29:39

to live any kind of decent life. When

29:41

we may put it in those terms, I think it becomes

29:44

much harder to say, oh, well,

29:46

you know, this is a this is a political issue. And

29:49

actually, there are some studies

29:52

that have been done in the states

29:54

and other areas which suggest that among

29:56

younger Republicans, feelings

29:59

towards

29:59

climate change are not those necessarily of

30:02

older Republicans. Younger Republicans are much

30:04

more likely to be pro-action on climate change.

30:07

Interesting. And you know what, because there's

30:09

one really strong

30:11

enemy that Ramaswami and others

30:14

have that's not very convenient

30:16

for him, and it's called

30:18

the thunderstorm, and it's called the

30:20

heat wave, and it's called the forest fire. It's

30:23

called January, and it's called February, and

30:25

it's called March, and it's called April. It's called

30:27

every month of the year.

30:29

So

30:30

hearing that it's only going to get worse, and

30:32

it's not going to get better as

30:34

more carbon is in the atmosphere,

30:38

you know,

30:39

kids are, I think,

30:42

they may feel conservative on some issues,

30:44

they may feel

30:45

progressive on some issues, but it's

30:48

awfully hard in the face of all

30:50

of this

30:52

to be a denier any longer.

30:54

And it is interesting, even in

30:56

my, I think one of the great tells Elizabeth was

30:58

the way that question was framed in that debate, 20 years

31:01

ago would have been framed as do you believe that climate change

31:03

is happening at all,

31:05

and this is where you know the congressman brings a snowball

31:08

and instead if we have climate change how come I have a snowball.

31:10

So from

31:11

that argument of do we have climate change

31:13

at all to now,

31:15

as the question indicated,

31:16

there was no longer a debate

31:19

about whether climate change is real. They

31:21

chose to change the question to say is

31:24

it man-made, i.e. do I have to do anything different,

31:27

and that's a change. Yes it is a change,

31:29

although it's disturbingly

31:32

slow a change compared with the way in

31:34

which the scientific evidence has become clearer

31:36

and clearer.

31:37

Drag-kicking and screaming for sure.

31:40

Absolutely, and I mean there's also another

31:43

narrative which I think is almost

31:45

as dangerous as denial that we

31:47

also do see now often

31:49

especially from the same demographic groups

31:52

who you know it suits not to change

31:54

policies and that is the kind of numerous policy

31:56

that says okay now we're going to accept it's

31:59

happening but it's too late to.

31:59

to do anything about it, so we still shouldn't be

32:02

changing the way we live.

32:04

Yeah, that's not good. That's not a good one either. Let's

32:06

take one final break. We'll come right back, finish

32:08

up with Elizabeth Cripps, and I got some

32:11

very important questions for her that I think are on everybody's

32:13

mind. We'll be right back.

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35:05

I do want to return to one of the questions, one of the

35:07

things you raised earlier, which was this idea of climate anxiety.

35:10

Tell us more about that

35:12

because

35:12

you know if anxiety is, you

35:15

know,

35:15

fear about events of the future that you

35:17

can't control today, it

35:19

would only be natural

35:21

that people would be feeling climate

35:23

anxiety. Yet anxiety is both

35:25

paralyzing

35:27

and really mentally destructive.

35:30

It can be.

35:32

So I think you're right. I mean when we think about

35:34

the psychology of climate change,

35:36

on the one hand we have this this

35:39

problem of many people

35:41

being, for that, want of a better word,

35:43

apathetic about it. It's not that most

35:45

people deny that climate change is happening.

35:48

It's that most people still just carry

35:50

on acting as if they weren't and often

35:52

that just involves suppressing a whole

35:55

load of incredibly difficult emotions

35:57

that climate change would bring to the surface.

35:59

the guilt,

36:02

the worry, the anger, the frustration,

36:04

the fear for our children and so on and so on. So

36:07

it's understandable I think that we try and keep a

36:09

lid on this Pandora's box and part

36:11

of the process of moving away from apathy

36:13

means really facing up to those emotions

36:16

and trying to work through them. But

36:19

on the other hand we also know

36:21

that young people especially are dealing

36:23

with rising levels of climate

36:25

anxiety, this incredibly real

36:28

fear and a genuine mental

36:29

health condition because

36:32

they are legitimately scared

36:35

about the future. And so

36:37

I think

36:38

as parents we have to

36:40

be aware of that balance, we have

36:43

to be aware that yes we

36:45

need to educate and empower our children

36:47

to think about and to act on this but

36:50

on the other hand we need to be aware

36:52

that they are going to have to deal

36:54

with this in their own mental

36:56

health, we need to help them to learn

36:59

the tools that will enable

37:01

them not to be burned out,

37:03

not to think about this all

37:06

the time so that they can't focus

37:08

on anything

37:08

else, that they can't enjoy the other

37:11

things in life.

37:12

So what would you say to a parent who has a child

37:15

who is

37:17

experiencing that level of

37:20

existential anxiety

37:23

over climate? I

37:26

would say it's very important

37:28

that your child knows that they can talk

37:30

to you, that you are

37:32

their ally in this. It's

37:34

also I think important for

37:37

young people facing these challenges, one

37:39

thing that many young people I think find

37:41

is that being part of

37:44

a movement, being part of climate

37:47

activism at whatever level from

37:49

the grass roots to the bigger movement can

37:52

be a way of becoming energised

37:54

and empowered and if not

37:57

escaping anxiety altogether at least being able

37:59

to do that.

37:59

to feel better

38:02

and to live with it. But I think

38:04

ultimately it's also recognizing

38:07

that this is

38:08

sometimes something that as with

38:10

other mental health conditions will need more

38:12

professional help than parents are able

38:15

to give and psychologists

38:17

are learning

38:20

more and more about climate

38:22

anxiety. They are developing

38:24

the tools to help young people to deal

38:26

with it and I think in general

38:30

with a parent I would say to other parents

38:33

treat your children's mental health as seriously as you

38:35

would their physical health and reach

38:37

out for help when it's needed. I

38:39

think the one thing it's worth saying about this

38:42

is that in

38:44

some ways it's a unique issue,

38:46

climate anxiety, because this

38:49

is a

38:49

mental health problem but it's a mental health

38:51

problem with an incredibly clear

38:54

physical cause. The

38:56

reason that

38:57

there isn't a huge uptake

38:59

in climate anxiety isn't because

39:02

we have some kind of neurotic new

39:04

generation, it isn't because parents

39:06

are scaring their children by talking about these

39:08

things, it's because the

39:11

world is heating up too

39:13

fast and too dangerously. It's because

39:16

we have wildfires, we have floods,

39:18

we have droughts, we have extreme

39:20

weather that our children are seeing

39:23

on the news that they are learning about, some of them

39:25

are actually seeing and facing it in reality.

39:27

So I think it has to be recognized

39:30

and treated as a mental health condition

39:32

but it can't be treated as only a mental

39:34

health condition.

39:36

I think it's so important what you just said,

39:38

particularly because I think

39:41

people who want to take the focus away from

39:43

action on climate

39:45

use that argument. Say, oh, you're just making people

39:47

anxious, you're scaring people, you're fear

39:49

monger, you're making people. And

39:52

the reality is there are

39:54

things to be scared of

39:56

but there's also action to be taken and I think that's your

39:58

message.

39:59

And it brings me to this other

40:02

element of parenting

40:04

and mental health, quite frankly, that I think is

40:06

interesting, which is this idea of hope and

40:08

optimism. Hope feels really, really

40:10

good. And, you know,

40:12

I think you write quite a bit about how

40:15

one of the ways for

40:17

kids to feel that sense of hope is

40:19

to participate in taking action, to

40:22

show that they have some agency, that

40:24

they can get some results, to show that,

40:26

wow, when I just walked outside my school,

40:29

hundreds of thousands of kids did this at the same

40:31

time. But I think as a parent

40:33

in general,

40:35

we want to teach our kids to be optimistic because

40:37

we want them to have a better future. And we know that

40:39

to some degree, if we want them to have a better

40:41

future, they're going to have to be responsible, probably make

40:43

that better future.

40:45

Absolutely. I think

40:47

there's an important difference between

40:49

just being hopeful or optimistic and

40:52

being kind of actively hopeful

40:54

or optimistic. So there's the I

40:57

talk in the book about earned hope,

40:59

the idea that we as parents,

41:02

we can try and earn hope for

41:04

our children and help them to earn it for

41:06

themselves by being part of

41:09

trying to face this incredibly challenging

41:12

situation and be part

41:14

of making a difference and moving forward. And

41:17

I think it's very important to contrast

41:19

that with what you sometimes see

41:21

or hear, which is the kind of middle aged

41:23

person sitting back and

41:26

sort of saying, well, isn't it amazing

41:28

what the young activists are doing? They give me hope

41:31

because it's not their job to give us

41:33

hope. We should be earning

41:35

the hope for us and for

41:37

them.

41:38

That's so true.

41:39

You know, we've talked about the intergenerational

41:44

conversation around climate. There's

41:46

another one,

41:47

though, which is also kind of deeply important,

41:51

which is the difference between

41:53

the impact in the developing

41:55

world

41:56

and even, quite frankly, the

41:58

poorer communities.

41:59

in the more well-off parts of the world, and

42:02

the developed world, that

42:04

what we understand about climate change,

42:07

at least today, it's going to

42:09

hit

42:10

the people with the fewest resources the hardest. Absolutely.

42:13

And to some degree,

42:15

isn't this also an exercise in

42:17

kind of global empathy? And

42:19

that, for at least in the United

42:22

States,

42:23

the quote unquote virtue of self-reliance

42:27

and take care of yourself, is

42:30

a strong thread and a strong

42:32

stream of the American psyche. And

42:35

it's not universal, but it's certainly

42:38

part of what this country is about.

42:40

And also, I think in human nature, there's something

42:42

about, well, I want to protect my family first,

42:45

and then worry about others, even if you are indeed

42:48

worried about others.

42:49

So isn't some of this conversation

42:52

about,

42:54

you know, even if you,

42:56

my children, aren't going to feel the

42:58

worst of this, or don't feel the worst of this,

43:00

there are already others that are. And

43:04

isn't that become then a challenge of, how

43:07

do you help

43:08

your kids get out of their own skin?

43:10

Absolutely. I mean, I think, as you

43:12

say, climate change exacerbates

43:15

existing injustices. So it's worse

43:17

for marginalized communities, whether you're talking

43:19

about at a global level, that it's already

43:22

much worse for the global South, or

43:24

whether you're talking about a country

43:26

like the US, when you look at the impact

43:29

of, say, Hurricane Katrina, the

43:31

marginalized communities were far

43:34

worst hit, because this makes

43:36

things, it's much harder to cope

43:39

if you are already badly

43:40

off, you don't have the resources to get away

43:43

or to adapt. And also, because

43:45

those who are worse off are much more likely

43:47

to be living in areas which are vulnerable to these

43:50

extreme weather events. So there

43:52

are many reasons why it does this, but

43:54

it is much worse for those who are already

43:56

vulnerable. So yes, it isn't just

43:58

about teaching our children.

43:59

to look out for themselves, it's

44:02

about

44:03

raising good global citizens. And

44:05

yes, there is a kind of mentality

44:09

which says, well, I'll worry about myself

44:11

first, or I'll worry about my children first.

44:13

And actually, you know, we often think being a good parent

44:15

is in many ways about worrying about your own children

44:18

first. But there's also

44:20

an incredibly basic

44:23

moral idea, which I think very

44:25

few people would actually deny if it came

44:27

down to it, which is that we also shouldn't be

44:29

living in a way which is really harmful

44:32

to other people

44:33

wherever they are, and that, you know, we should

44:35

help our fellow human beings

44:37

if we can do that relatively easily.

44:40

And you only have to apply that

44:43

incredibly basic idea. And it becomes

44:45

clear that the way that we're living now with climate

44:48

change and with other global challenges is

44:51

hugely unjust, and that being a good

44:53

citizen requires

44:55

rebuilding our institutions or changing

44:58

them so that it is not the disparities

45:00

aren't so great, that people aren't struggling

45:03

hugely to live because of the actions

45:05

of people in countries like these. And

45:08

the interesting thing is that often the young people

45:10

again realize this, if you look at the

45:13

rhetoric, the policies of something

45:15

like the Sunrise Movement or Fridays for Future,

45:17

they are not just talking about protecting

45:20

their own future if they happen to be

45:22

activists in the US or the UK, they're

45:24

talking about

45:25

climate justice and enabling

45:28

adaptation and protecting communities

45:31

at a global level.

45:33

So I'm going to digress for a second and

45:37

betray a bias that I have around social change,

45:40

which is that it only really works

45:43

when we're chasing something that's

45:45

very specific and tangible.

45:47

And I think words like climate justice, etc.

45:50

don't meet that bar for me, but

45:53

I think about, for example, what was in the Civil

45:55

Rights Bill, I think about the

45:56

US to fight for pre-existing conditions,

45:59

I think about

45:59

marriage equality. Those

46:02

were all movements that struggled for decades

46:05

until they had a place of

46:07

something very specific. And they

46:10

chased it and they won. It

46:12

took a long time, but they won. We

46:14

have marriage equality in the U.S.

46:17

Likewise even recently around

46:19

guns, you know, we have legislation

46:21

with background checks and

46:23

red flag laws because we got very,

46:25

very targeted, very, very specific. And

46:28

I'm wondering

46:29

if this movement wouldn't benefit from

46:31

that same very specific

46:33

rallying cry.

46:35

And when I hear you talk

46:37

about the

46:39

injustices that are done to

46:41

the world

46:42

in carbon emissions,

46:44

it makes me think of

46:45

carbon tax. It makes me think of

46:47

this idea

46:49

that of course it's free to just

46:51

pollute or put our carbon into the air

46:54

because it is free.

46:56

It is literally free. It is not a part

46:58

of doing business.

47:00

So I guess I wanted you to react to two notions. One

47:02

is,

47:03

does a cause need a very specific cause?

47:06

And secondly, if so, is that best understood

47:09

in some ways as a carbon tax or

47:11

something similar?

47:12

So you're right. I mean, I

47:14

think a movement needs a cause. I

47:17

mean, I think

47:19

in many ways

47:21

what is happening with certainly

47:23

the young people's movement for

47:26

climate justice is on a par

47:28

with or has big parallels with

47:30

something like the Civil Rights Movement in that we have

47:32

a group in society, younger

47:34

people here whose voices are being

47:36

denied and who are

47:39

not being protected by the government.

47:41

And they are simply saying, look, recognize

47:44

us, recognize the need to look

47:46

after us with the rest of society.

47:49

And then of course, as you say, at the

47:51

global

47:51

level, you need more

47:53

specific targets

47:56

or aims. But I think a lot of this can be formulated

47:58

in the language of human rights, which

47:59

we already have pretty clear notion

48:02

of what they are. But by the same

48:04

token, here's my challenge, is there

48:06

are plenty of social movements, unlike civil rights

48:08

movement, like the protests

48:11

against the WTO and

48:13

the big banks. And there's

48:15

nothing people are after other than protesting

48:18

or the discernible goals to say, we don't

48:20

like this.

48:21

And those are things that

48:24

just aren't as successful.

48:26

So you're right, and then often where

48:28

you see policy successes, there are,

48:31

or activism successes, there are very specific

48:33

goals, like for example, objecting

48:36

to fracking in the UK, or

48:38

where you have a specific oil field,

48:40

which is, or pipeline, which is being campaigned

48:42

against, whether it works or not there, at least there

48:45

is a clear cut goal. And more generally,

48:47

we can say, non-proliferation

48:50

of fossil fuels, we could talk about

48:52

not ending subsidizing fossil fuels

48:54

to be fairly clear cut goals, but to focus

48:56

on the carbon

48:58

tax, yes, I mean, that is

49:01

certainly one approach. And

49:03

interestingly, there have been some

49:06

indications, some of the

49:09

citizens panels that have

49:12

been raised on climate change in

49:14

the citizens assembly in Ireland, for example,

49:16

definitely came out in support of

49:19

something like a carbon tax. Although of course,

49:22

from a kind of justice point of view, you need to make

49:24

sure that it's protecting

49:26

the poorest citizens. So if you have a carbon

49:28

tax, but then you have very

49:31

vulnerable, badly off communities who are completely

49:33

dependent on fossil fuels to

49:35

heat their homes and can't afford to do so,

49:38

if there's a carbon tax, then

49:40

there are ways in which it can increase

49:43

injustice. So obviously the tax needs to

49:45

be nuanced in that way.

49:47

Well, it needs to be paid for by the people who should be paying

49:49

for it, as opposed to being exported.

49:52

So a luxury tax would be on

49:54

fossil fuels would certainly be way forward.

49:56

Yeah, no, no, I think getting

49:59

kids.

49:59

smart about policy

50:02

in addition to getting them politically

50:04

active, to me feels like

50:06

a great combination. Yeah. And something

50:08

we can do as parents, because

50:10

if our kids come to us and say, I want to do

50:13

something about this issue, what should I do? Those

50:15

are places to go. But I actually

50:18

love the other thing you said, which is at this

50:20

point in time, they may be the teacher and we're the student, more

50:23

often than not. And in that case,

50:25

our job is to listen

50:28

and support.

50:29

Absolutely. And

50:31

there's been some studies done that

50:33

have shown that, for example, I think it's particularly

50:35

teenage daughters talking to their conservative

50:38

fathers, but there's evidence that

50:40

children, young people are shifting their

50:42

parents' views on this.

50:44

Fascinating. Well, Elizabeth Cripps,

50:46

she's got a new book, Parenting on Earth,

50:49

A Philosopher's Guide to Doing Right by

50:51

Your Kids and Everyone Else.

50:55

In my view, obviously, it is a really

50:57

important place for

50:59

us

51:00

to pay attention and focus. It's something

51:02

that

51:03

I know as a parent,

51:05

I find

51:07

very tricky, very important, and that I've been

51:09

lacking

51:10

in saying and demonstrating

51:13

the right things to my kids on all occasions. So I

51:15

think it's terrific that you put

51:17

this out into the world.

51:19

So I wish you the best. Thank you for being

51:21

in the bubble. Oh, it's a pleasure to

51:23

talk to you. Thank you for having me.

51:38

Thank you, Elizabeth, again, for being

51:41

in the bubble. Thank you for listening

51:43

to this topic. I know it's a heavy topic.

51:47

I think my great challenge would be to try

51:49

to work in a dad joke

51:51

on the topic of

51:52

intergenerational climate change policy. It's

51:55

just not a funny topic. Gotta

51:57

pick some funnier topics. So we're going with COVID next

51:59

week.

51:59

That'll be funny, COVID variants. Caitlyn

52:02

Jettalina, she's gonna tell us

52:04

about this new mysterious

52:07

variant. We're gonna talk a little bit more about

52:09

the continued wave, what

52:11

to expect in the winter, really get

52:13

into the details. Sorry folks, we gotta just

52:15

dive back into that one a little bit, even

52:17

though I know it's not funny, but

52:19

we'll make it funny. That's what we do on

52:21

In the Bubble. And then Franklin Four

52:24

will be on the podcast,

52:27

Franklin Four, Right for the Atlantic.

52:30

And he wrote a new book,

52:33

which is sort of the definitive look

52:36

at the Biden presidency called The Last Politician

52:39

inside Joe Biden's White House and the Struggle

52:42

for America's Future. I

52:44

can tell you the parts of it that I've read so far

52:47

are pretty accurate because they describe

52:50

things that I was around for. Very

52:52

interesting, Frank is really super

52:55

interesting guy. And I think it's gonna be a great

52:57

show. We're gonna continue with our

52:59

mix of topics after that.

53:02

I think September is gonna be a great month. I'll

53:04

remind you again,

53:06

please let friends know about the

53:08

podcast and rate us. And

53:10

as always email me. Talk

53:13

to you next week, thank you.

53:14

Thank you for listening In the Bubble.

53:19

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53:22

you like what you heard, rate and review

53:24

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