0:01

Many young people in our communities feel alone

0:03

and need support. Carillon Behavioral

0:06

Health can help. Carillon Behavioral

0:08

Health provides access to mental health services.

0:11

Their Child, Young Adult, and

0:13

Family Services program helps

0:15

connect young people and their families

0:18

to expert care that's compassionate

0:20

and appropriate. Take the first

0:22

step to feeling stronger and better. Visit

0:25

carillonbehavioralhealth.com

0:28

That's C-A-R-E-L-L-O-N

0:32

behavioralhealth.com

0:54

Laugh along with Elise Myers as she and her guests

0:57

play a rapid-fire questions game on Funny

0:59

Cuz It's True and continue to uncover

1:01

new ways to make life suck less through our exclusive

1:04

subscriber audio. Check out a free

1:06

trial of Lemonada Premium today in the Apple

1:08

Podcast app by clicking on our podcast logo

1:11

and then the subscribe button.

1:15

Lemonada

1:26

Lemonada

1:37

This is In The Bubble with Andy Slavitt. Man,

1:40

do I have a lot to talk about today. Don't forget you

1:43

can always email me day or night. Andy

1:45

at lemonadamedia.com

1:48

I've got Franklin Foer on the show

1:50

today. He's a writer for The Atlantic. He

1:52

wrote a book called The Last Politician really

1:55

about

1:56

the term to date

1:59

of Joe Biden. So,

2:01

let's talk about Joe Biden, okay?

2:04

You're having this conversation probably

2:06

wherever you live with the people

2:08

around you and let's talk

2:11

about him. I know him. I

2:14

served in his administration.

2:16

I worked for him. I have a little bit

2:18

of that unusual perspective, but

2:21

it's not like he's my best friend,

2:23

but I know him. So,

2:26

let's look at it. Joe

2:28

Biden was elected in the midst of a horrible,

2:31

horrible global pandemic. He

2:33

was elected without a majority

2:36

in the Senate. He was

2:38

elected just before a war

2:42

broke out in the Ukraine. He

2:45

was elected when we had enough

2:48

weird economic things

2:50

going on that it was unclear whether we were going to slip

2:52

into a massive recession or

2:55

that we were going to end up in a massive amount of

2:57

inflation. And

3:01

not for nothing for many of us, he's

3:03

elected at a time when we are in a waning

3:05

years of being able to do something about climate.

3:09

And

3:10

look,

3:11

what happened? We have avoided

3:13

a recession so far. We

3:16

experienced some inflation. It's

3:18

gotten under control. Jobs

3:20

continue to be added. We

3:22

have taken a huge bite out

3:24

of the climate crisis. We

3:28

rebuilt allies around the world

3:31

in the face of Russia's attack on Ukraine.

3:35

We created a policy

3:38

to compete finally with China on

3:41

chips and on factories and manufacturing.

3:46

And he did

3:49

all this with,

3:51

with times when it was very unclear whether he

3:53

would get it done with barely

3:55

a vote in the Senate sometimes with

3:58

an effort at bipartisanship. the work sometimes

4:00

and it didn't. And

4:03

it is pretty remarkable

4:05

that side of a congressman. So when

4:07

I hear from friends, hey

4:10

is this guy too old? Hold

4:13

that thought a second. I go, wait a minute, what

4:15

are you talking about? And yes,

4:18

he's got a strike right now on his hands in

4:20

Detroit with the UAW. He's

4:23

got Russian aggression

4:26

and alliance building

4:28

with North Korea, Russia,

4:30

and China. Bad

4:32

things happening. But

4:34

that's what this job is. This

4:37

job is the job of

4:39

facing down bad things.

4:43

That's what you do. You fix some things

4:45

and then you wait for the next ones and you

4:47

face them down. That's

4:49

what this job is. So

4:52

people

4:53

are doubting him

4:55

because of age, whatever. That's

4:58

also what this job is. It's

5:00

being doubted at all times by

5:03

somewhere between 40% and 60% of the population at all

5:06

times, literally. That's

5:12

what this job is. Why do people

5:14

not see this? Why

5:16

do people understand this?

5:18

Why do people not completely

5:22

take into account the fact

5:24

that this is the most

5:27

brutal, awful, can't

5:29

win job and yet

5:31

you've got somebody in there that is

5:34

doing it for the right reasons? And let me talk about

5:36

that reason. Because of this guy,

5:40

okay, he's 80 years old. All

5:43

of these accomplishments I just talked about, whether

5:46

it's for the climate or prescription drugs or rebuilding

5:49

alliances around the world, all the things I just talked

5:51

about are not

5:54

done by a younger man that's going to live

5:56

through the benefits. These

5:59

are all all things. These

6:02

are all things that are done for

6:05

after he is off this earth. When

6:07

you are 80 years old and you are

6:09

focused on the climate, you're

6:12

doing it for us, not

6:14

for him. And that takes an extraordinarily

6:17

different type of thinking, an extraordinarily

6:19

different type of man. He's working on more

6:21

long term things for this

6:23

country because he's

6:26

at that age and you know that age where people

6:28

are like, I'm not doing it for me

6:31

anymore. And

6:33

I think he is misunderstood.

6:36

I think every time he walks with

6:38

that kind of funny straight back he

6:40

has or stutters because

6:44

of his childhood affliction with stuttering,

6:47

people are like, see? See?

6:50

He's losing it.

6:52

Let me tell you the one thing I can tell you for sure. That

6:54

guy ain't losing it. That guy

6:57

ain't losing it. That guy is sharp as

7:00

attack, probably sharper than

7:02

he was when I knew him and when we knew

7:04

him in earlier periods when

7:07

you know there was a lot more stuff to talk about,

7:10

when he was very entertaining and he would

7:12

tell lots of stories. And

7:15

this is a guy now who gets to the point.

7:18

And

7:19

we should understand that that

7:22

is not Donald Trump's view of the presidency.

7:25

And the one thing I think that

7:28

Joe Biden is focused on right now as much

7:31

as anything else is preventing that

7:33

guy from getting back in the White House.

7:36

And

7:37

who knows what happens with democracy when that happens?

7:39

This is a guy, Donald Trump, who's

7:41

not there to serve the country.

7:43

He's there to serve himself. And

7:47

I think when we really

7:50

all stop and think about it, we

7:52

know that to be the case. So,

7:58

Franklin Four. writes

8:00

this book about

8:02

the Biden presidency, and he starts

8:05

out by his own admission with the point of

8:07

view that Joe

8:10

Biden is a relic, that Joe Biden

8:12

is honoring some bygone

8:15

era of bipartisanship, that

8:18

Joe Biden has passed his sell by date, and

8:23

he goes deep into these questions with

8:26

over 300 interviews, including

8:28

me, around what was

8:31

happening on a daily basis on

8:33

a couple of fronts. What was happening

8:36

in Afghanistan, a low moment

8:39

for the Biden administration for sure? What

8:41

was happening with Vladimir

8:43

Putin in Russia? What was happening with China? What was happening

8:45

as people were dying

8:47

of COVID left and right? What was happening

8:50

as inflation started to take off? What was happening

8:53

in all these moments? And he paints a picture,

8:56

which I've got to say, no one could question

8:58

the accuracy of this picture, but I

9:01

think it's a pretty straight telling. It's

9:04

not Joe Biden as Superman. It's

9:06

not Joe Biden as God's greatest

9:09

gift to public speaking. It's not

9:11

Joe Biden, some like,

9:14

brilliantly self-confident FDR,

9:16

Abe Lincoln. Joe

9:20

Biden as a guy who pushes the ball down

9:22

the field and gets victories for the country

9:24

and then moves on. It's Joe Biden who's willing to

9:27

take short-term criticism for the

9:29

right long-term result. And

9:33

that I think is a interesting

9:36

portrayal. Where that will put him in history?

9:38

I asked that

9:40

question to Franklin for it. I gave him some choices.

9:42

Is he FDR? Is

9:45

he LBJ? I

9:47

gave him some choices. The

9:49

answer he gave me shocked me. It

9:51

shocked me. You've

9:53

got to listen. This

9:56

is great. It's a great conversation.

9:58

Okay. off my

10:00

soapbox

10:02

except to tell you, tell your friends

10:04

about the show, leave glowing

10:06

reviews on Apple or

10:09

decent reviews, whatever you think.

10:13

And if you're going to give us

10:15

any stars at all,

10:17

just like with Uber, give me five stars. I

10:19

don't need ten, just give me five. Okay, here we

10:22

go. Here's Franklin.

10:32

I'm so pleased to have you

10:34

in the bubble, Frank. So great to be in

10:36

the bubble. So tell

10:38

us, what kind of man was

10:41

Joe Biden when he arrived

10:43

in the Capitol steps

10:45

in January of 2020? And

10:48

how different was he from the

10:50

man that he was only

10:53

four years ago as VP? And

10:56

for how different he

10:58

was from the guy he was who wanted

11:00

to run for president as a younger man?

11:03

I first met Joe Biden when I was 24 years

11:05

old. I was a very young reporter

11:09

and I was able to get him on the phone for

11:11

a story. And which

11:13

seemed pretty impressive to me at age 24. And

11:16

then kind of five minutes into the conversation, he was

11:19

going deep into stories about

11:21

Uncle Finnegan. No,

11:24

it was like senators from the 1970s and the greatest

11:26

hits. And

11:29

five minutes into the call, I was like, oh my God,

11:32

this guy is going to talk forever.

11:34

How am I ever going to end this conversation? Or

11:36

even get into question. Or even get into question.

11:38

And so I kind of began thinking

11:41

of him as somebody who was this

11:44

just kind of ultimate creature of Washington. And

11:47

then every time he would run for president,

11:49

he would seem to kind of gaff in ways that

11:52

confirmed my initial impression

11:54

of the guy. But I think that

11:56

a lot changed for him and becoming

11:59

vice president. is the hardest

12:01

job in America. Because

12:05

you have all this power, but yet you

12:07

don't really have power. You become the

12:09

punchline for all of these jokes. And for somebody

12:11

who's not terribly, who was not terribly

12:14

secure, or who wore his insecurities on his sleeve,

12:17

I think that that was both an exhilarating

12:19

and a hard job for Joe

12:22

Biden to have. When he

12:24

became president, I talked to

12:26

a lot of his friends. I remember one

12:29

of them telling me that they'd

12:31

never seen Joe Biden so copacetic as

12:34

when he, that first month or

12:36

two after the AP had

12:38

declared him the winner of the campaign, they

12:41

felt like a lot of his insecurities had kind

12:43

of melted away because he was this guy chasing

12:45

this job that he'd always wanted.

12:47

And then he finally had the job.

12:51

There was this moment that one of his aides

12:53

told me when he was coming down the steps

12:55

to deliver his inaugural address, that

12:58

he looked out over the Capitol and he

13:00

saw George W. Bush,

13:02

he saw Bill Clinton, he saw Barack

13:04

Obama, and then afterwards he

13:06

said to them, he's like, look, I know these guys.

13:09

I know they're totally human. And

13:12

seeing them and seeing their humanity was

13:14

very reassuring to me. It made me think that I

13:17

could do this job too. You

13:19

know, I think every one of these people

13:22

who became president,

13:24

I don't just think I actually, I have

13:26

reason to understand

13:28

that every one of them has a point that says to

13:31

themselves, wow, I can't believe I'm president of the United

13:33

States. And I want to get

13:35

to something else you wrote in your book,

13:38

which is as Joe Biden stood there taking the

13:40

oath of office, he looked down

13:43

not on a sea of people, but

13:45

on a sea of cardboard fake people.

13:49

And he looked behind him and instead

13:51

of seeing kind of this beautiful Capitol,

13:53

he saw broken windows or at least

13:55

places where there were broken windows. And

13:58

I don't

13:59

know.

13:59

I'm wondering how much those

14:02

things, plus the loss

14:04

of Beau, which I think changed him, if

14:06

I was going to give you my own perspective. Absolutely.

14:09

Absolutely. How much those things

14:11

colored how he was honing

14:13

in on what his job was going to be?

14:16

I think all those things did impact

14:18

him. In addition

14:20

to the fact that Trump had basically

14:22

abnegated the presidency during the

14:24

transition. I think that there was that moment

14:27

when he gave the speech on television before

14:29

Thanksgiving, where he told people

14:32

that they couldn't celebrate their holiday.

14:35

He felt like he was having to constantly

14:38

fill this void. But what

14:40

you're talking about, the sense of loss

14:42

that is such a part of

14:44

the Joe Biden narrative going back to

14:47

the death of his wife and his daughter

14:49

in the car crash, extending through

14:51

the death of Beau, which I think really did

14:54

shake him. I talked to people who described

14:57

even in the Obama White House that

14:59

the difference between the Joe Biden that they'd seen before

15:01

Beau's death and after Beau's death was kind

15:04

of there was this just enormous gap that he was

15:06

not. He wouldn't walk into meetings

15:08

and kind of try to dominate

15:11

in the same sort of way that he had. He wasn't

15:13

the same gregarious persona that you could

15:16

see. You could see the loss

15:18

on his face and his demeanor. And

15:21

I do think that at that moment where

15:23

he was connecting with death at

15:26

a mass scale really was

15:28

a moment that

15:31

I think that he probably felt very

15:34

emotionally prepared for. And I

15:36

think his sense of purpose and mission was probably never

15:38

clearer than at the beginning

15:41

of that presidency where there was

15:43

a void. He was stepping in. He felt like

15:45

he had the emotional skills

15:47

to fill it.

15:49

And I have this point of view and I'll test

15:51

it with you, which is that

15:54

the country sort of elected

15:56

him because

15:59

we felt... that we wanted an

16:01

adult.

16:02

Yes.

16:04

And then it's like at that party

16:06

you have in college where you're like, oh, this

16:08

is getting out of hand. Someone please call an adult.

16:11

Then the adult comes and you're like, you

16:14

instantly resent the fact that you've

16:16

got this person who's really just

16:18

a stabilizing force and figure. And

16:21

I don't say just, but I mean in that because

16:23

I think it's going to a lot of substance of what he's actually

16:25

accomplished, which we'll get into. From

16:28

the perception of this sort of question is

16:30

why is Joe Biden constantly underestimated? Why

16:32

is Joe Biden not crushing

16:35

it in the polls? Why does, you know,

16:37

in a reelection, Donald Trump

16:39

even stand a remote chance

16:42

against this adult? I

16:44

wonder if there's something around the psyche if he

16:46

came in at a very big

16:48

low point. Nobody wants

16:50

to go back and think about this low point of losing

16:52

democracy and the pandemic, et

16:54

cetera. And so to some

16:57

extent you get tarred with

16:59

the very thing that you've done

17:01

for us. Yeah.

17:03

Well, I mean, a couple of things buried

17:05

in what you said. The first is that it's very hard for us

17:07

to recover the sense of crisis that we

17:09

had in early 2021 that we had the pandemic

17:12

raging. The

17:14

economy was teetering because the pandemic

17:17

was raging. You had the insurrection.

17:19

You had the impeachment of Donald Trump and

17:22

the amount of pure stabilization that

17:24

he was able to do, which I think even

17:26

that undersells the accomplishment of

17:29

those first few

17:31

months in the presidency. All these technocratic

17:34

things he did, like the vaccination program

17:36

I described in the book is one of the most, maybe

17:39

if not the most successful government program

17:41

in history that you could walk into a pharmacy

17:44

within six months of Biden coming to a president and

17:46

without an appointment, get a life saving shot

17:48

in your arm, giving all of the complexities of the

17:51

distribution system, et cetera. The

17:54

public is not prepared to give somebody credit

17:56

for averting disaster in that

17:58

sort of way for whatever reason. Our

18:01

memories don't extend in that sort of direction

18:04

and our goodwill and political

18:06

judgments don't extend in that direction. And

18:08

I do think that there's an extent to which Trump kind

18:10

of broke our brains. And so I

18:13

know this is true in media in which this

18:15

constant sense of wanting to be titillated

18:17

by Trump and the standards of Trump. A

18:20

lot of what Biden does with

18:22

his public persona is just very normal

18:24

by the standards of the presidency. Yet

18:27

if you juxtapose it next to Trump, he

18:29

just doesn't seem energetic, right?

18:32

It's like Trump was negative energy

18:35

radiating in all directions. Biden

18:38

goes, he gives a set-piece speech

18:41

every day, a very normal speech delivered

18:43

in a very normal sort of way.

18:45

And yet that registers

18:48

to the public into the media as evidence

18:50

of Sleepy Joe. It's really

18:52

weird if you think about it. Like

18:55

the country has elected a Democrat

18:58

when things have gotten pretty bad. 1992, 2008 crisis, 2020.

19:06

And

19:07

unlike what I think are people's general

19:10

caricatures of Democrats

19:12

as big idealists,

19:15

et cetera, et cetera. And by the way,

19:17

the same was also true of Carter in 1976,

19:20

but focusing on Clinton

19:22

and Obama and Biden,

19:24

they came in with economies

19:27

spiraling, crisis of confidence

19:29

in the country. They stabilized things.

19:32

And at least in the case of Obama,

19:35

he felt like it was never appreciated

19:38

after we got out of the financial crisis,

19:41

how close we came, what a

19:43

cool customer he was when he walked in. And I think

19:47

the similar thing with Biden, and

19:50

you write about, well, here's

19:52

the person who's willing to solve

19:55

a paraphrase, willing to solve the problem, willing to focus

19:57

on getting to an outcome. not

20:00

so much looking for short-term gain

20:02

in recognition and maybe not as talented

20:04

as Bill Clinton or Barack Obama

20:07

in doing that, but just sort of like

20:10

bringing solidity. By

20:12

the way, speaking in the largest climate transformation

20:15

at exactly the time when we had

20:17

no more time left, but

20:20

at some level, it

20:22

feels like, boy,

20:24

where's the political credit for

20:27

something like that? Yeah,

20:29

I mean,

20:31

it is almost mysterious at times

20:34

just because you can see why because

20:37

of inflation people would be grudging about

20:39

giving him credit. And you can

20:42

kind of understand there's almost

20:44

this aesthetic critique of him that

20:47

because of the way he moves, because of the way that he talks,

20:49

the pundit, Matt Iglesias said he's not a good

20:52

television character. He said kind of caricaturing

20:55

the critique of Biden. And

20:58

I think that's all true. One thing I want to

21:00

maybe connect to a theme in the book and use

21:03

it as a way of pushing back a little against

21:05

something you said, you described him as maybe not being

21:07

as talented as Clinton or

21:10

Obama. And I think it's interesting. I think

21:12

his talents just reside in a

21:14

different area than their

21:16

talents. I mean, those were guys who were

21:18

in their way very dazzling wonks. They

21:21

were people who eggheads

21:23

like you and me were kind of very aesthetically

21:26

attracted to because of the

21:29

way that they wrote, the way

21:30

that they spoke, the way that they conducted

21:33

policy seminars. Yeah, they were good. They

21:35

were good retail people. Yeah, Biden was a good,

21:37

it's always been a good inside character. And

21:40

in terms of getting stuff done, you're exactly

21:42

right. It's hard to argue that

21:45

he's not at least as accomplished, if

21:47

not more so. But I think

21:50

if I were going to rephrase what I said, it was that

21:52

selling what I've done to the public.

21:55

Yes. It's something that,

21:57

you know, with Bill Clinton's apathy and

21:59

Obama.

21:59

kind of soaring, aspirational

22:02

nature. It does have pretty good retail

22:04

characteristics. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

22:07

Yeah, and one thing I keep thinking about, which

22:09

is as you look back over Biden's

22:11

accomplishments, you could argue that

22:14

he's stolen a page for Trump on policy,

22:17

that when it comes to trade or

22:19

reviving a manufacturing or going

22:21

after corporate behemoths,

22:24

you could argue like he's delivered

22:26

in a populist way that Trump

22:28

never was able to fully deliver

22:30

on, and that he should have a message

22:33

that could connect plausibly

22:35

with whatever populist anger is out

22:38

there. I mean, he started to do this

22:40

last week, is depict

22:42

Trump as the phony populist and

22:44

Scranton Joe as the real deal. Right,

22:47

like if I had asked you, at an X

22:49

number of years ago, okay, who's

22:51

more likely, you know, if I was to ask you this question in 2010,

22:55

who's more likely to hit

22:57

it off with blue collar voters, right?

22:59

Joe Biden or this kind

23:01

of real estate guy with the gold, and all these things,

23:04

from New York, you'd be like, Andy, don't ask me stupid

23:06

questions. I'd like to go to show us that

23:08

there's more to it. Okay,

23:11

give it a second, we're gonna take one quick break, and

23:13

we're gonna come back and talk about what

23:16

people get wrong about President Biden,

23:19

and also let's go right at it, Afghanistan.

23:22

Clearly a low moment. I wanna

23:24

go deep into that, we'll be right back. So,

23:37

fall's almost here, and we

23:39

all know how busy it can get. In fact,

23:42

it can be so busy, that finding time to enjoy

23:44

a healthy meal can be tricky, but

23:46

with factor, you can enjoy a delicious,

23:48

nutritious meal with no

23:50

extra work. I gotta attest to that. Factor's

23:53

fresh, never frozen meals are

23:55

ready in just two minutes, two

23:57

minutes, and so you can skip the extra

23:59

trip. to the grocery store, the chopping, the

24:02

prepping, the cleaning up, while getting

24:04

all the flavor and nutritional quality that

24:06

you're looking for. All you have to do is

24:08

heat it up and enjoy. I

24:10

have tried the pulled pork carnitas,

24:13

rice and beans, and the broccoli

24:16

rice, which is actually rice made out of broccoli,

24:18

but it's really amazing. It's

24:20

actually really, really good. And so

24:22

I'm adding some new things to my

24:24

order list next week. And

24:27

with over 34 weekly flavored packed meals

24:29

to choose from, I'll never run out of things to

24:31

try. And not only is Factor

24:34

healthy for me, it's healthy for the planet.

24:37

They offset 100% of their delivery emissions, source 100%

24:40

renewable electricity for their production

24:42

sites and offices, and feature sustainably

24:44

sourced seafood in their meals. So

24:47

head to factormeals.com

24:49

slash inthebubble50 and

24:52

use the code inthebubble50 to get this

24:54

50% off. Use

24:57

code inthebubble50 at factormeals.com

25:01

slash inthebubble50 to get 50%

25:03

off. With

25:07

everything happening in the world today, climate

25:09

change, economic injustice, attacks

25:12

on women's rights, it's easy

25:14

to feel overwhelmed and like the choices

25:16

we make don't matter. But they do

25:18

matter, and that's what motivated the folks

25:21

over at Credo Mobile to start

25:23

America's only progressive phone company. Every

25:26

month, Credo Mobile donates a

25:29

portion of their proceeds to progressive nonprofit

25:31

groups. That means that just

25:33

by using your phone, you can

25:35

support Credo Mobile's mission and

25:38

make a difference every day at no cost

25:40

to you. You'll also get

25:42

the nation's top rated, most reliable

25:44

network with coverage nationwide.

25:48

Learn more about the nonprofit's Credo supports

25:50

and shop online at credomobile.com

25:52

slash inthebubble. When you go

25:55

to credomobile.com slash inthebubble,

25:57

use the code bubble300. and

26:00

get $300 off a new smartphone.

26:02

Or

26:03

bring your own phone to Credo and

26:05

get $300 in credits using

26:08

code BUBBLEBYO. That's

26:11

Credo, C-R-E-D-O,

26:14

mobile.com slash in the bubble. Code

26:18

BUBBLE300 for $300 off a new smartphone or

26:22

code BUBBLEBYO for $300

26:25

in credits. Make

26:27

the switch and join the only mobile phone

26:30

company that fights every day to make a difference

26:32

in our world. You

26:46

spent a lot of time interviewing a

26:49

lot, a lot of people. Yeah. Close

26:51

to the president. You did a really good, big, deep

26:53

dive onto almost everything that happened in the first few years.

26:56

There's some impressions that are out there of Joe

26:58

Biden. And I'm curious

27:00

which ones you think are most correct and

27:03

which ones are most wrong. That

27:07

he's this old, doddering guy, that

27:09

he's a super underestimated guy, that he's crafty

27:12

and wily in getting deals done. Like what's

27:15

the truth of it as you saw? What's most accurate

27:17

and what are people saying that you

27:19

go, that's just not what I found? Yeah,

27:22

so

27:23

one thing that surprised me about him was

27:25

the way in which he would bury himself in details.

27:27

I mean, this cuts against something I just was, in

27:30

contrasting him to Obama and

27:32

Clinton, I actually think that probably

27:35

relative to the two of them, he

27:37

enjoys the detail of policy,

27:41

maybe even more so than Obama. I

27:43

mean, I think Obama likes policy,

27:46

but he liked it also at a

27:48

level of abstraction. Biden

27:50

likes policy at the level of detail

27:53

and at this intersection of where government

27:56

actually meets everyday life. And that's

27:58

the thing that he tended. to obsess

28:01

over. But there are these examples. Like

28:05

when something like Afghanistan happens, which is the

28:07

lowest moment of his presidency, he

28:09

was still sitting in the situation

28:11

room looking at maps of Kabul

28:14

all day long trying to figure out how

28:16

buses you get from this hotel to the airport,

28:18

whether it'd be possible to have refugees gather

28:20

in a parking lot and get escorted from there.

28:23

Yeah, I love how he keeps calling the

28:25

guy that they set in to lead the rescue

28:27

effort and pressing him

28:29

on every common sense idea that

28:31

he could think of.

28:33

Yeah, that's how he sees his job. Or you take

28:35

something like the baby formula shortage

28:37

last year. He's literally

28:40

trying to figure out how to get pallets of baby

28:42

formula from Europe onto shelves

28:44

of grocery stores. I mean, he really...

28:47

And what's the why part? Is it because he likes

28:49

policy so much or is it because he

28:51

really feels

28:53

the sort of empathetic sense of who's

28:55

on the other end of it? What's the

28:57

why part?

28:58

I think that there's a lot of just sheer determination

29:01

in Joe Biden. You've got this guy

29:03

who's pushing through

29:05

despite the fact that he's always... He

29:08

is indeed always being underestimated

29:10

by the people around him. He knows that

29:12

people are always rolling their eyes

29:14

at him. He knows that even sometimes his own

29:16

closest aides will roll their eyes at him when

29:19

he tells his folksy stories

29:21

or the like. And so he's constantly

29:23

determined to kind of

29:26

show himself, to prove himself. I

29:29

think that he probably... Your empathy level,

29:31

your question is probably right. He does care on

29:34

a very basic level. And the more that things

29:36

get humanized for him,

29:38

the more he throws himself into it. So

29:41

what do you think about the kind

29:43

of almost cliched

29:46

criticism on particularly, I think, right wing

29:48

TV, although God admit it's been a long time since

29:50

my dial has stopped on

29:52

almost any news network, let alone Fox, but that he

29:54

is as old and doddering

29:58

and not with it. etc.

30:01

Easy to plant those kinds of fears What

30:04

you found as an actual

30:07

matter?

30:08

What

30:35

he was age sixty but is it matter

30:37

governing it's not i find

30:39

him to be somebody who

30:42

is not just deep in the weeds

30:44

but kind of reluctant to

30:46

let go of that. Position

30:48

that he has kind of sitting on top of things

30:51

he's reluctant to delegate

30:53

wide swaths of important policy

30:55

to somebody else he feels like it's

30:58

his job to sit on top of it.

31:00

And then i've seen so i see when

31:02

i've seen him up close i've seen moments

31:05

where. Tell a

31:07

story and like maybe the story goes on

31:09

a few beats too long and he

31:11

gets kind of lost in the story which

31:13

is maybe a problem joe baden had as a teenager

31:16

i don't know but you know when you

31:18

combine that with a that's really not new that's really

31:20

not new. Yeah but i was gonna say that you

31:22

see these commanding performances as well

31:24

that go alongside this and so i

31:27

heard him once deliver this

31:29

discussion about. Are asia

31:31

policy and how we were gonna counter china

31:34

it was like it was so incredible

31:37

to see how we had all the chess pieces moving.

31:39

Across the board and how he was thinking about it

31:42

all and how he would go through just the

31:44

map in his head and say okay we've got this agreement

31:46

with australia we're doing this with india

31:48

we're doing this with vietnam we have

31:50

this measure to counter the belt and road

31:53

initiative i want to push them

31:55

hard here but not too hard here because that

31:57

would be dangerous and for

31:59

me. it's moments like that where you see the flip side

32:02

of the age question, which is that you

32:04

see experience being brought to bear.

32:07

You see the way in which somebody

32:09

who's just seen foreign policy play

32:11

out for decades know how

32:14

to conduct it in a way

32:16

that is both aggressive

32:18

and safe. Yeah.

32:21

I mean, I

32:22

think that those stories that he tells belies

32:24

something, which is, you

32:27

know, younger people, they

32:29

get distracted, a lot of things are important, they

32:32

got to have a view on everything. As

32:34

you get

32:35

to be

32:36

in his job as he is today, what I

32:38

saw, what I experienced is someone who

32:40

I felt knows what matters

32:43

and knows what matters more than he ever has in his life. I'm

32:45

not going to say in comparison

32:48

to anybody else, but I'm going to say it's pretty easy

32:50

in the same age to go, you know what? Our democracy matters. Our

32:53

alliances around the world matter. Everything

32:55

stuff does matter, demonstrating who

32:57

we are, like, and correct me if you hear

33:00

it differently, but the moment kind of plays to

33:02

his actually true inner strengths, which

33:04

is I don't need to be a wonk on everything. I

33:07

don't need to be kind

33:09

of giving soaring speeches. I need to

33:11

focus on these four and five fundamental things

33:14

that as a country, if we don't do

33:16

now, we are going to be in a heading

33:19

in a direction, whether it's in global

33:21

alliances, whether it's wars around

33:23

the world, whether it's what happens

33:26

to our democracy, what

33:28

happens to the planet, that

33:31

because I could see these things, they're pretty focusing.

33:34

Yeah. Yeah. And I want to

33:36

say something also about narrative

33:39

and about his stories, because this

33:41

is something, I guess, when I misjudged

33:44

him when I was 24 years old, that

33:46

I now understand having studied him up

33:49

close, which is that he

33:51

is a storyteller. He thinks in terms of narrative.

33:54

He understands politics as

33:56

narrative and government as narrative

33:58

that the age The leads who don't

34:00

make it in Joe Biden's world are the

34:03

ones who don't understand that when you come and brief him

34:05

about a policy, what you're doing

34:07

is supplying him with the

34:09

facts and the grist for him to

34:11

be able to tell a story to

34:13

the public or a story to a senator or a story

34:17

to a foreign leader, he

34:19

understands that storytelling

34:21

is part of persuasion and persuasion

34:24

is the most elemental part of politics and the

34:26

key key, the essence of democracy

34:29

in a way in that all politics

34:32

is consists of having

34:34

to kind of win the narrative battle, which

34:37

is part of why I think

34:39

it's he hasn't really

34:41

shown a lot of his core strengths in the run up to

34:43

this election because he has a very good story

34:46

to tell and he hasn't figured out quite

34:48

the way to narrativize it yet.

34:50

Let's take one final break and I want to come

34:52

back and get a scorecard on the most important

34:54

policy areas by

34:56

that. I want you to rate the president administration on

34:59

how well he's done across some of the most important areas,

35:01

but let's take a quick break first. Be right back. Silence.

35:14

Social media climate change the

35:16

pandemic school violence. Our

35:19

young people have a lot of very genuine understandable

35:21

concerns. Caroline behavioral

35:23

health can help. Caroline

35:26

behavioral health provides access to mental

35:28

health services their child,

35:30

young adult and family services program

35:33

helps connect young people and their families

35:36

to expert care. That's compassionate

35:38

and appropriate their services

35:40

include telehealth peer support

35:43

and links to community resource groups. Their

35:46

focus is on your whole health and

35:48

connecting services for the best

35:50

possible outcomes. Whether

35:53

you're a young person yourself a parent

35:55

or caregiver, Caroline behavioral

35:58

health can give you a voice and. offer

36:00

a helping hand. Take the first step

36:05

to feeling stronger and better. Visit carolinebehavioralhealth.com.

36:10

That's carelonebehavioralhealth.com.

36:14

Etsy has it everyone. Yes, it's true.

36:17

Etsy is where style seekers,

36:19

vintage hunters, longtime renters, and

36:21

new homeowners alike go to shop for style

36:23

home decor and gifts from independent

36:26

sellers. Are you looking for signature

36:28

jackets, handwoven linens, and personalized

36:30

jewelry for your wardrobe? Etsy has

36:32

it. Or maybe some stunning artwork, pillows,

36:35

and rugs for your home? Etsy has it.

36:37

How about gifts for any occasion like

36:39

handmade throw blankets, mugs, totes,

36:42

and rings? Yep, Etsy has

36:44

it. There's so much to discover and

36:46

we can't wait for you to find what your style-seeking,

36:49

home upgrading, gift-giving heart desires.

36:52

Whatever it is you're looking for, whether it's

36:54

serveware and table linens for entertaining

36:57

or a handbag and a perfect jacket to

36:59

make sure you're looking like your best self at

37:01

any given moment, this is your invitation

37:04

to find it because Etsy has

37:06

it. Find home, style, and gifts

37:08

for you for all budgets and any

37:10

occasion. Etsy has it. Shopetsy.com.

37:25

I wanted to move to policy and actually accomplishment

37:29

and I want to talk about

37:32

both what kind of grade you

37:34

think the president deserves and

37:37

also whether or not this is something that attaches to

37:39

his legacy. In other words, will it end

37:42

up being an extremely important thing? Will

37:44

we judge it in history? How will we judge it in history?

37:46

All these things I think you touch on

37:48

in your book, which by the way, having

37:51

been a witness to some of this, is a very, very

37:53

good read. I would encourage

37:55

people if they want to know

37:57

who's the guy running at least on one side

37:59

of the the aisle here. This is the book

38:01

to read. Okay. So I'm going to go

38:04

through 10 areas. Give me a sentence. Yeah.

38:06

Okay. The COVID response.

38:09

I think he did. I think the

38:11

vaccine rollout was one of the great programs

38:13

in government history. And I

38:15

think he was right to resist

38:17

vaccine passports mandates until

38:20

the end. I think if there was one thing he

38:22

probably regrets, it's doing the

38:24

mandates at the very end of it because

38:26

it, that's the one thing that exacerbated

38:30

divisions in the country. So, but I would give him,

38:32

I'd give him probably like an A

38:34

minus on that. Do you want an actual grade? Sure.

38:37

Or is that cheesy? Sure. No. And will that, will that be part

38:40

of his legacy or will people kind of go, no, you

38:43

get no, sorry, but you get no credit

38:45

for a problem we didn't want to deal with in the first place.

38:48

I think, I think historians will grade him extremely

38:50

highly on that. I think the public isn't going to give him any credit

38:52

for the election. Well, kudos to Jeff Zients and

38:55

of course he's the chief of staff now. And

38:57

I would, you know, say that's the probably the, of the 10

38:59

things that you were telling us the one that I'm most familiar

39:01

with. Okay. Second, the

39:04

exit of it from Afghanistan.

39:07

I think that that is, that's

39:10

a C plus B minus. I think it

39:12

was, it was, it was the right policy. His

39:15

intelligence agencies and,

39:17

and failed him by not giving him the

39:20

right assessment of when disaster

39:22

would strike. But I don't think that he really thought hard

39:24

enough about what a humanitarian evacuation

39:27

of Afghanistan would require. And

39:30

so didn't, didn't prioritize that

39:32

as a leader.

39:33

And then yes. And then I think interestingly,

39:35

I like the numbers, 125,000 or whatever, but towards

39:39

the end, I hadn't realized he

39:41

made a personal change in policy that he

39:43

decided, which ended up

39:45

getting a lot more people out than otherwise would have gotten

39:48

out, which maybe didn't maybe salvage

39:50

the tough situation from being, you know,

39:52

it didn't turn into Saigon could have been

39:54

a lot worse. But again, you

39:56

know, you don't always get credit for that. You

39:59

could, it's actually I think almost

40:01

a perverse achievement because

40:03

the initial week of

40:06

after Gani's fall was so disastrous,

40:08

it gave him the space and

40:10

also the political will to evacuate far

40:13

more people than would have been evacuated

40:15

in any other set of circumstances.

40:17

Interesting. Okay, NATO

40:20

and Alliance building around the world.

40:23

I think he gets an A for that

40:25

because, well, there are two hard things

40:27

he did. One is that if you go

40:30

back a year, there was a lot of indifference

40:32

in America and indifference in Europe to

40:35

autocracy. Putin was just kind of

40:37

an accepted fact of life. It wasn't very clear

40:39

that the alliance against

40:41

the Russian invasion of Ukraine would be as

40:44

strong as it was. So he gets credit there.

40:46

And the other thing that's so interesting about the

40:49

European alliances is that he's brought them along

40:52

to a position on China that's very

40:54

uncomfortable for them and was very,

40:56

very

40:57

unexpected. And so I think he

41:00

gets the highest marks there. Will he get political

41:02

credit and will he be part of his legacy?

41:04

Again, historians will give him credit for that,

41:07

but I don't think anybody else will. The other thing

41:09

that should be said about Ukraine that I think

41:11

is so impressive is

41:13

that the American people have genuinely

41:16

sacrificed for their solidarity with Ukraine

41:18

in the form of higher gas prices and

41:21

some form of economic slowdown.

41:24

And so the fact that there hasn't been

41:26

a massive political backlash against

41:29

Ukraine, I think is both testament

41:31

to the American people, but also

41:33

his political leadership there.

41:35

Inflation and the economy.

41:37

Well, let's just aggregate this too, because those are

41:40

two separate things. Because

41:42

inflation, I think, there

41:46

was some marginal inflationary

41:49

impact from the Inflation Reduction

41:51

Act. It's not clear exactly

41:54

to me what it is. I think economists

41:56

will debate this for a very long

41:58

time, but you give people checks,

42:00

you're running the economy hot. He intended

42:03

to run the economy hot because

42:05

he felt like full employment was more

42:07

important than whatever marginal inflation

42:10

would exist. And in the end, it

42:13

is true that we're running inflation at

42:15

a lower race than in Europe and other

42:17

parts of the world. With

42:20

the economy, I look at that as more

42:22

of a long-term sort of thing where

42:25

between the CHIP spill and the Inflation

42:28

Reduction Act, the amount of public

42:30

or private investment in

42:33

semiconductors and clean energy is astounding.

42:36

Transition to clean energy is happening

42:39

far faster than anybody would

42:41

have anticipated. And the rebound

42:43

of American manufacturing is happening at a clip

42:46

that few had anticipated. So I think

42:48

he gets really high marks there. And I think

42:50

he could politically benefit from that if he

42:53

finds the right way to talk about it.

42:55

Yeah, that was actually my next one was climate

42:58

and clean energy. And without

43:00

making a repeat what

43:03

you just said, this may be one

43:05

that young voters are motivated by

43:07

and young voters are going to be important. But

43:11

it's interesting. I mean, there's inflation rate

43:13

and then there's high prices. So inflation

43:15

rates have come down significantly. Some

43:18

of the prices are higher and that's not always

43:20

a good sign for a sitting president. There's

43:22

still quite a ways to go to the election.

43:25

And I think people's memories

43:27

of that

43:28

could fade between now and then. The other

43:30

thing about clean energy

43:32

that's so interesting is that in

43:34

the negotiation for the Inflation Reduction Act,

43:37

Joe Manchin... Hey, how about social programs and

43:40

sort of the

43:41

call it the liberal progressive

43:44

democratic vision around

43:46

not just equity,

43:49

but sort of supporting people in need.

43:52

At one point in time we had a child tax credit

43:55

that's burned off, but there have been a number of other things. What's

43:57

his scorecard there?

43:59

I don't think it's that great. I mean, I think that we

44:02

started off, if the child tax

44:04

credit had stayed in place, I mean,

44:06

the level of drop in childhood

44:09

poverty was so astonishing.

44:12

Yeah. Yeah, and we let that slip away from us

44:14

as an achievement, which is a very

44:17

sad thing for society. And Democratic

44:19

presidents are normally judged by what they can do to extend

44:21

the social safety net and

44:23

all the programs that were embedded and build back better,

44:26

which were pushing the social safety net

44:28

to the next frontier were

44:31

killed by Joe Manchin, in

44:33

effect. And so he doesn't have anything to really

44:35

show there.

44:37

Health care, and I think I'll

44:40

go one step deeper in, say,

44:42

prescription drug costs. Is this a win

44:44

for him? Does he get credit? Is it part of his legacy?

44:47

Yeah, well, that's one thing where I think he actually

44:50

will get a lot of political mileage

44:52

there, since it's something that every Democratic

44:54

president has wanted to do but have been unable

44:57

to do. And he actually found

44:59

a way to deliver.

45:00

On that note, something every Democratic president

45:02

just wanted to do but never been able

45:04

to deliver before, gun safety, gun

45:07

safety measures.

45:08

Yeah, and so the bipartisan

45:11

bill that passed had some meaningful

45:13

stuff in it. And probably not enough

45:16

to actually address

45:18

the core of the problem. But there

45:20

are new tools that police

45:22

and judges have to take guns out of the hands

45:25

of dangerous people. And

45:27

there was also a decent amount of spending in

45:29

that bill on mental health. And

45:31

so I think you need to think of that bill also

45:34

as a health care bill.

45:36

Yeah, yeah. I mean, a really interesting

45:38

example, I think both

45:41

prescription drugs, gun safety,

45:44

of really getting bipartisanship on the issues that

45:47

nobody ever thought there'd be bipartisanship

45:50

would be more, I would say, in the gun safety side. But

45:52

the drug costs and the

45:55

climate provisions are interesting along with

45:57

it because the three most lobbyists

46:01

in Washington, the quote-unquote swamp,

46:04

you know, the fossil fuel industry, the prescription

46:06

drug lobby, and the NRA.

46:10

All three took losses.

46:12

Yeah, one thing that's so interesting about the gun safety,

46:14

I talked to a senator who's deeply

46:16

passionate about gun safety and a conversation

46:19

he had with Biden about pushing

46:21

gun legislation. And Biden's attitude

46:24

is you keep pushing and when

46:26

you get when something comes into

46:30

the arena of political probability,

46:32

then I'll throw myself behind it. And

46:35

so he's, he's got this sense of realism

46:38

about legislation. And so

46:40

he knows that,

46:42

you know, you're never going to be able to push something through

46:44

on a party line, bipartisan gun legislation

46:47

is really difficult. But

46:49

if it gets close, and if the moment's

46:51

right, he's willing to invest a lot

46:54

in trying to make it happen. Oh, you made me think of one digression,

46:56

I have two more in list, but I got to go to this digression. Okay,

47:00

that approach,

47:02

you would describe as probably the opposite

47:04

of Bernie Sanders, political approach,

47:06

which is, you know, open the aperture

47:09

wider by staking positions

47:11

out that are more extreme and hope that you can pull people

47:14

over. And what you just said about Biden

47:16

is tell me when it's possible, then

47:18

I'll come push it over the line. I

47:20

found fascinating a part

47:22

of your book, where you talked about Bernie's

47:25

Sanders attitude towards

47:27

Joe Biden, which was,

47:30

which

47:32

might be surprising to kind of traditional

47:35

Sanders supporters.

47:36

Yeah, so they had almost a symbiotic

47:38

relationship. Sanders is the

47:40

movement leader. And he looked at Biden

47:43

as the politician who was

47:45

pushable. And so you know, you go back,

47:48

this is a faulty metaphor, but

47:50

you had a relationship between MLK and

47:53

LBJ, where LBJ was

47:56

a politician who could be pushed to do

47:58

bigger and more ambitious. things, but there

48:00

needed to be the right pressure from the outside.

48:03

He occasionally might resent that

48:05

pressure from the outside, but he ultimately knew

48:07

it was his ally. And there's a real difference

48:10

with Obama. Obama really disliked

48:12

the way that he was criticized by

48:15

the left. And I think Biden

48:18

is a little bit more understanding

48:20

of the way in which politics works.

48:23

So if he wants Elizabeth Warren

48:25

support, he understands, okay, I need to promise

48:27

her student debt relief. I'm not

48:29

going to enjoy doing this because it's not my

48:32

policy preference, but I understand that I'm

48:34

the head of a coalition and

48:36

I'm going to get pushed certain places that are uncomfortable

48:39

for me in order to govern on behalf

48:41

of a coalition.

48:43

Fascinating. And it was fascinating to hear

48:45

how Sanders, according

48:47

to your books, essentially told people

48:49

on his staff and his team who wanted to jump

48:51

on Biden for not doing enough. No, no, no.

48:54

You're missing the point. You're missing. This

48:56

is our opportunity to actually get some

48:58

things done and, and show that I

49:00

think a credible amount of pregnancies. And I know

49:03

Bernie and he's done the show. I actually find

49:05

that to be very accurate about

49:07

what he's really like.

49:09

Yeah. Well, it was also a measure

49:11

of the respect with which both Biden

49:14

and especially Ron Klain, his chief of staff,

49:17

treated Bernie Sanders that had Warren. Yeah.

49:19

Klain developed a very, very deep

49:22

relationship with both Sanders and Warren. He

49:24

took their calls. He, he talked to them

49:27

in a way that was respectful and pathetic.

49:29

Um, and they appreciated that.

49:32

Yeah. So

49:34

you've made a couple of comparisons. Obviously

49:36

you were to write about, President

49:39

Biden has to some degree looked at FDR

49:42

as a comparator. You just mentioned

49:45

LBJ as someone who is

49:47

incredibly effective as a former Senator from

49:50

a legislative standpoint. Is

49:52

the jury still out or kind

49:54

of where, where will, where will we think

49:57

of him or will we think of him as, you know,

49:59

the. I'm much

50:02

of it probably does depend on what happens in 2024, I imagine.

50:05

Yeah. So everything

50:07

depends on 2024. But the thing that I've

50:09

been thinking a lot about is

50:12

a comparison to a different president, and

50:14

that's Reagan. So

50:17

if Biden were to win

50:19

in 2024, and you took all

50:22

of the bits and pieces of his legacy

50:24

that we've just been describing and more,

50:27

you'd say that we lived in this era of political

50:29

economy that began with

50:32

Reagan and extended up through

50:34

maybe Donald Trump. And then you

50:36

look at Donald Trump and you look at Biden,

50:39

and you can see we're going in a different direction on

50:42

trade, on our attitudes

50:44

towards monopoly, attitudes towards manufacturing.

50:47

In the Biden administration, one thing we haven't discussed

50:49

is the revival of unions, which

50:53

I think his prestige and his

50:55

policies have helped create

50:58

a moment where union organizations are rising is

51:00

on the rise. The prestige of unions is very

51:03

much on the rise. And there's

51:05

a certain parallel between these two eras. Jimmy

51:07

Carter, when he came to president, did

51:09

a lot to talk

51:12

down the old New Deal liberalism that

51:15

had dominated for a generation. He

51:17

did a lot on the deregulation front.

51:20

He said that Washington was a big part of the problem.

51:23

In certain ways, he laid the groundwork

51:25

for what Reagan came in and pushed

51:27

in a very different sort of direction. I

51:30

think you could argue that Donald

51:32

Trump is kind of like the Jimmy Carter for

51:34

this next era, that he came

51:37

in, he broke a lot of China, he

51:39

shattered a lot of chivalrous. He

51:42

may not have believed a lot of what he was saying, and he

51:44

did it all in a very, very dangerous, fake

51:47

sort of way. But Biden

51:49

comes in and he takes it and

51:52

he's setting the terms for American

51:54

economics and politics

51:56

potentially for a generation in

51:59

terms of of the way that we think

52:01

about the role of government.

52:03

I did not expect you to say Biden

52:05

as Reagan. Interesting. You've

52:09

kind of this book, The Last Politician, and

52:11

you make the point that we hate politics. I

52:14

maybe wonder, what's the alternative to politics?

52:18

Well, it's, you

52:20

have leaders of mass movements

52:23

who believe in total victory. And

52:26

I think maybe Trump 2024 is the alternative to

52:28

politics that

52:32

you have a guy who

52:35

doesn't care about persuasion for whom the

52:38

state is a matter of imposing

52:40

their own will and their own interests. That's

52:44

one alternative to politics. I think that there are plenty

52:46

of others. I was on, I

52:49

had a very interesting conversation the other day

52:51

with somebody from the Obama administration

52:54

about this question of politics. And

52:56

I was juxtaposing

52:59

Biden and Obama. And I said, okay, Obama

53:01

came, he was an anti-politician. He came from

53:03

outside the system. He didn't like

53:05

Washington. But he told

53:07

me that over time Obama

53:10

started to change, that Obama by

53:12

the end of his eight years had

53:14

so much more respect for Harry

53:16

Reid, Nancy Pelosi, and Joe Biden,

53:18

that when he was writing political

53:21

speeches, the speechwriters

53:23

would just kind of in a matter of muscle memory put

53:25

in lines about how Washington was terrible. And

53:28

Obama would cross them out and say, you know what guys,

53:31

that was kind of my initial impression, but not

53:34

anymore. I've come to actually respect

53:36

politics as the best way of getting

53:39

things done. I think the book reads

53:41

as a

53:43

pretty good defense of politics. I

53:46

think notwithstanding the fact that

53:49

there are more presidents who aren't

53:53

so honorable of article one and

53:55

maybe even all the recent ones on

53:57

both sides. And you know,

53:59

It

54:01

so happens that we got some amazing

54:03

legislation done or at least in my view that

54:05

we've talked about on climate and on prescription

54:08

drug costs and gun safety,

54:10

etc. But man, it came very, very

54:13

close to those deals not

54:15

happening. In which case, the

54:17

story might have been very, very different. Well,

54:20

this would be painfully biased sounding but I

54:23

think one thing that comes through in this book

54:25

and I think particularly probably

54:28

relevant to the last president or the last

54:30

guy as it said, is a competency

54:33

of like the six or

54:35

seven or eight, you know,

54:37

senior people around the president.

54:41

This sort of both the goodwill, the

54:44

ethics, the values, the decision

54:46

making capability, the play

54:48

it straight, the make strong and tough decisions,

54:51

the seriousness of which they took their

54:54

jobs and you profile a number of

54:56

them. And I just want to say again, this is painfully biased

54:58

because those in early part of the administration

55:01

that you really do have

55:04

the sense that this is

55:06

a president who surrounds himself by prose,

55:09

PROS and not

55:11

poetry and prose and

55:14

that there is something about that

55:17

that is to

55:19

make us I think should

55:21

make us feel good. It's what we wanted. Yeah.

55:24

And one thing we haven't acknowledged

55:26

is the fact that you're a character in the book. Yes,

55:30

that's right. If that appeals to you, it's another reason

55:32

to get the book. Yeah, I'm not saying it's a reason

55:34

for people who are loyal podcasts listeners

55:37

to buy the book but I'm just saying as a

55:39

matter of just being transparent

55:42

that you were part of that inner

55:44

circle that submerged themselves into

55:46

the crisis and dealt with it when there were

55:49

very very few people in the White House at

55:51

the time because COVID was keeping every,

55:54

the entire staff

55:55

of the government dispersed. Yeah.

55:58

And look, I actually wasn't referring to myself. Far

56:00

be it for me not to brag about myself, I'd be

56:03

happy to do that. But yes, I did

56:05

get a chance to see and meet and work with these

56:07

people. And I thought there

56:10

was a premium placed

56:12

on people who could get shit

56:15

done and who were smart

56:17

and experienced. And

56:20

yeah, it's a small part and often a fly on the wall.

56:23

But I even think about what they wanted from me and I

56:26

think it speaks to a president

56:29

who is pretty low ego

56:32

for someone who's in politics and

56:34

just really wants to make stuff happen.

56:36

One thing I learned about management from

56:39

this book is the

56:41

way in which you don't...

56:44

The way to mobilize government best isn't

56:46

necessarily to take the number one

56:49

expert on a problem and elevate them

56:51

into the top job. So Jeff

56:53

Zients who ran the COVID response

56:55

was somebody who had limited public

56:57

health experience. As Ron Klain

57:00

had limited public health experience when he took over

57:02

the Ebola response. But the

57:04

point I think when Ron

57:06

Klain probably had a lot to do with picking Jeff Zients

57:09

and Biden knew Zients closely from

57:11

the transition was that you take somebody

57:13

who is a manager and somebody who knows

57:15

how to drive processes

57:18

and who's able to kind of extract

57:20

themselves from the weeds

57:23

of all the questions that would

57:25

probably tangle most people

57:27

who were experts up and to just really focus

57:31

on driving this massive apparatus

57:33

towards a big goal in a very

57:36

relentless sort of way. It's

57:38

a different kind of thing though, Frank.

57:40

The guy that I'm blanking on his name who I

57:42

really admired who they sent

57:45

in from the State Department to

57:47

Afghanistan. John Bass.

57:49

John Bass. It's a very clear mission.

57:52

You decide what's important and you

57:54

execute like crazy. When

57:56

facing the COVID emergency and the COVID response,

57:59

it's a... It was a perfect kind of assignment

58:01

for Jeff and you

58:04

want someone like Jeff who basically

58:07

constantly every day asks himself, what

58:09

result am I going for? What is everything

58:11

that I need to do to get there? What's

58:14

every stone I want to turn over? And

58:16

I'll avail myself of every expert that

58:19

I need to, but he's a results oriented

58:21

person very much like what Bass was,

58:23

or at least the way I read it, the chapters he

58:26

wrote on him when he went to Afghanistan. Yes. Yeah.

58:29

And there's a similar mission, save

58:31

every life possible in this

58:34

process. And I prize

58:36

execution at that level

58:38

over many, many, many

58:40

kind of big idealistic strategic topics.

58:43

Because at the end of the day, people will trust

58:45

the government that it delivers. Right. Let

58:48

me ask you one final question because we've

58:51

gone a little bit long, which I'm thrilled with.

58:54

Did you get a feel for what

58:56

happens next? You name the book,

58:58

The Last Politician. So

59:01

you must, you must have a sense that

59:04

we're going to undergo some transition or that

59:07

this era of politics

59:11

is at the very least going

59:13

to end. What's

59:16

it going to be replaced with? I'm not asking you

59:18

to win the election so much as I'm asking what

59:21

you think the end of Joe

59:23

Biden's presidency, whatever it

59:25

happens will mean.

59:27

And it's a provocation on my part

59:29

to call it the last politician. I still, the

59:32

end of my introduction to the book held

59:34

out hope that the successes

59:37

of the Biden administration will

59:41

remind us of, I call

59:43

it the tedious nobility of

59:45

politics, that

59:48

it's really the least heroic

59:51

profession. It's the most human

59:54

profession because it involves

59:57

concession. It involves. a

1:00:00

good politician is somebody who is self-aware of

1:00:03

their own weaknesses

1:00:05

and finds ways to compensate for them.

1:00:08

So it's my hope that we still find

1:00:10

a way to salvage politics

1:00:13

in the politician because as

1:00:15

you said earlier, I'm not sure

1:00:17

that there is a good viable democratic

1:00:21

alternative to it. Well

1:00:23

Frank, it was so good of you to be

1:00:25

in the bubble and really

1:00:28

enjoyed the book,

1:00:31

even the parts that I wasn't in. There are so many

1:00:33

pages without me and I thought

1:00:35

I was a little offended but I even enjoyed those

1:00:38

parts. It's really great of you to be

1:00:41

here.

1:00:41

My absolute and total pleasure. Thank

1:00:44

you. It was fun. Thank you.

1:00:58

Let me first of all thank Franklin

1:01:00

for coming on our show.

1:01:03

By the way, when people come on our show who've written books,

1:01:07

they always tell me the

1:01:09

same thing to a person. This

1:01:13

discussion was very different

1:01:16

from all the other ones that I've been having. I

1:01:18

don't know what that means. It could be good,

1:01:20

it could be bad. It could

1:01:22

be that people didn't read the book and

1:01:24

it could be that people only wanted to talk about

1:01:26

the book. It could be that they have superficial

1:01:28

questions. I'd like to think it's

1:01:31

my ace in the bubble interviewing skills.

1:01:34

That's really what they're trying to say but it's a much more

1:01:36

fun conversation. So thank

1:01:39

you to Franklin. Let

1:01:41

me tell you we've got some great episodes

1:01:43

coming up in a very busy fall.

1:01:46

We're going to look beyond the headlines. David

1:01:49

Leonhardt is going to be here. We're

1:01:51

going to have obviously more content about

1:01:54

health and the pandemic and what's going on. We

1:01:57

now have vaccines that are available to you. I should have mentioned that

1:01:59

in the intro. I'll remind everybody

1:02:01

next week. Thanks again for listening

1:02:05

and we'll see you again next week. Thank

1:02:12

you for listening in the bubble. If you like

1:02:14

what you heard, rate and review and

1:02:16

most importantly tell a friend about

1:02:18

the show. Tell anyone about the show. We're

1:02:21

a production of Lemonada Media. Cal

1:02:23

Shealy is the senior producer of our show. He's

1:02:25

the main guy and he rocks it with

1:02:27

me every week. The mix is by

1:02:29

Noah Smith. He's a wizard. He

1:02:31

does all the technical stuff and he's a cool guy. Steve

1:02:34

Nelson is the vice president of weekly content.

1:02:36

He's well above average. And of course

1:02:39

the ultimate big bosses are Jessica

1:02:41

Cordova Kramer and Stephanie Wittleswax.

1:02:44

They are wonderful, inspiring, and

1:02:47

they put the sugar in the lemonade. The

1:02:49

executive produced the show along with me. Our

1:02:51

theme was composed by Dan Mallott and Oliver

1:02:54

Hill and additional music is

1:02:56

by Ivan Kariev. You can find out

1:02:58

more about our show on social media at

1:03:01

Lemonada Media where you can also get

1:03:03

a transcript of the show and buy

1:03:05

some in the bubble gear. Email me directly

1:03:08

at andy at LemonadaMedia.com. You

1:03:10

can find my Twitter feed at a

1:03:13

Slavet and you can download in

1:03:15

the bubble wherever you get your podcasts or

1:03:17

listen to ad free on Amazon Music

1:03:20

with your Prime membership. Thank you for listening.

1:03:30

This message is brought to you by Makers Mark. Hey

1:03:33

everyone, I'm Sam Bee. You might know me from

1:03:35

The Daily Show, from Full Frontal

1:03:38

with Samantha Bee, or maybe from my new podcast

1:03:40

Choice Words, which is another Lemonada

1:03:43

Media show as well. Each

1:03:45

week on Choice Words, I interview people I admire

1:03:47

about the biggest decisions they've made in their lives

1:03:49

and what they've learned from those experiences. That's

1:03:52

why I'm so excited to partner

1:03:54

with Makers Mark on Choice Words because

1:03:57

just like our show, Makers celebrates those

1:03:59

who live long. with a curious mindset.

1:04:02

And now, thanks to the Makers Mark Personalized

1:04:04

Label Program, you can create a

1:04:06

custom label for the people in your life

1:04:08

who you admire. And best of all, the

1:04:11

label program is free. Go

1:04:13

to makersmarkpersonalized.com

1:04:15

to order your personalized label today.

1:04:18

Must be 21 or older. Label's currently

1:04:20

available for 750 milliliter bottles only. Bottle must be

1:04:24

purchased separately. Makers Mark makes their bourbon

1:04:26

carefully, so please enjoy it that way. Makers

1:04:29

Mark Kentucky Straight Bourbon Whiskey, 45%

1:04:31

alcohol by volume, copyright 2023. Makers

1:04:35

Mark Distillery, Inc., Loretto, Kentucky.

1:04:38

Oh, and listen to Choice Words wherever you

1:04:40

get your podcasts. What's

1:04:42

up, everyone? I'm Delaney Fisher, comedian

1:04:44

and serial entrepreneur. And I'm Kelsey Cook,

1:04:47

comedian and, I swear this is real, a

1:04:49

world champion foosball player. On

1:04:52

our podcast, Self Helpless, we dig into

1:04:54

everything from heartbreak

1:04:55

to career burnout to the wild stories

1:04:58

from our

1:04:58

20s and the many anxieties we've

1:05:00

experienced along the way. We're often

1:05:02

joined by guests who range from celebrities

1:05:05

to renowned health experts. And together,

1:05:07

we'll unpack big topics like deciding

1:05:09

whether or not we want kids, building your dream

1:05:11

career, strengthening self-trust, and

1:05:13

much, much more. So join us every Monday

1:05:16

for an unsiltered, entertaining, and honest

1:05:18

conversation with friends where you don't even have

1:05:20

to leave your house. If you're not wearing pants, we

1:05:22

will never know. That's it. So listen to

1:05:24

Self Helpless wherever you get your

1:05:26

podcasts.