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1:17

This is In the Bubble with Andy Slavitt. Welcome

1:19

to the show. Email me, andy

1:21

at lemonadamedia.com. You'll

1:24

notice my voice is better. Thank you for

1:27

bearing with me. But you'll

1:29

notice on this interview that my voice

1:31

may get a little scratchy,

1:33

but apologies in advance for that. We

1:35

have a special Monday episode for you today,

1:39

diving deep

1:40

into the

1:43

question of what it's like

1:45

and what we need to do about the unhoused

1:48

populations, particularly

1:50

focusing in on California. I

1:53

wanted to do this special episode because

1:55

I think there is an acute realization

1:58

that you have when you

1:59

look into this,

2:01

that we, there's a lot of politics

2:03

and a lot of opinions around

2:06

dealing with people who, I

2:08

think for the most part, many people would just as

2:10

soon be out of sight, out of mind, that

2:14

it is an eyesore

2:16

that confronts us when

2:18

we see a tent encampment,

2:21

that we view the

2:24

failures as happening

2:26

all around us, whether they are the

2:28

individuals, whether they're the

2:30

mental health system, whether it's the housing system,

2:34

and a real struggle for answers. And

2:36

it's not as if people aren't

2:39

spending real effort, energy,

2:42

dollars on it. The

2:44

more you look at it though, the more

2:47

what's inescapable, at least

2:49

to me,

2:51

is the conclusion of how much

2:53

we as individuals are the

2:56

problem here, are the reason

2:59

why we're

3:00

not solving this question.

3:03

And we'll get

3:05

into this, but I think it's really

3:07

a kind of cold slap of

3:10

water across the face

3:12

that I think we need to look

3:14

at this issue with. If we do care about

3:16

it, we don't just wanna swept under the rug, we're

3:19

gonna explore it with a real understanding

3:22

of what we need to do and how

3:24

we can all make a

3:26

difference here. And I'm convinced

3:28

that my guest today will help

3:31

you see it that way if you don't already. And many

3:33

of you may understand what

3:35

I'm talking about. But it really

3:37

is about saying yes to affordable

3:40

housing at every possible opportunity.

3:42

Tamika Moss is the founder and CEO

3:45

of All Home California, and

3:48

Tommy Newman is the Vice President of Engagement

3:50

and Activation at United Way of Greater Los Angeles.

3:53

They are in Northern and Southern California,

3:56

respectively, San Francisco and Los

3:58

Angeles are the epicenter.

3:59

of the unhoused

4:02

crisis in this country. And

4:04

California, for all its great

4:07

qualities, this remains a

4:10

major, major, major flaw

4:12

and challenge the California model. And

4:15

my two guests are gonna help us get

4:17

into some depth, see this issue for

4:19

what it is, and I think you will

4:21

be rewarded for sticking with this episode

4:24

because they're great guests. It is

4:26

a topic that we should be spending more time thinking

4:28

about and should be getting

4:30

active around. So let's

4:32

bring them in.

4:42

Tamika Moss, welcome to The Bubble.

4:45

Thank you so much for having me. Tommy

4:48

Newman, welcome also to The Bubble.

4:50

It's great to be here. You know, I think a good

4:52

place to start this conversation is

4:57

to talk about what life is like for somebody

4:59

who lives without a reliable

5:02

shelter, address, place

5:04

to call their own. I think we all have our impressions

5:07

based upon what meets

5:09

our eyes when we are

5:11

out in the street, but

5:14

I'm not sure if that comports with reality. Tamika,

5:17

do you wanna start? Sure,

5:19

thanks for the question, Andy. I think

5:22

it's such an important place to start because it's

5:24

really easy to lose

5:28

the humanity when talking

5:30

about the issue of homelessness because

5:34

we talk about it in the context

5:36

of it being quite monolithic.

5:38

And the fact

5:40

of the matter is that the

5:42

precariousness of housing

5:45

security is so widespread

5:47

in our state and in our region

5:49

that so many folks are really just an

5:51

economic or health emergency away from

5:54

experiencing this crisis. So

5:56

the folks that I

5:58

have worked with who are... either unhoused

6:01

or living in cars, couch

6:04

surfing, all of those folks have a

6:06

unique story and experience.

6:08

But the trauma

6:10

of not having a stable

6:12

place to call home, the

6:15

vulnerability

6:15

that you feel in terms of your physical

6:18

and emotional safety. There

6:20

are thousands of children

6:22

actually in our region and in our state

6:25

who are experiencing

6:27

homelessness where they go to school

6:29

and haven't had a chance to have a

6:31

hot meal where they

6:33

are withholding information from

6:35

their peers and from their teachers about where

6:37

they sleep at night, where they were

6:39

able to wash up or bathe in

6:41

the morning. So these are very foundational

6:44

components of life that are

6:47

inaccessible to hundreds of thousands

6:50

of folks in our state and region.

6:52

So when we talk about what is

6:54

causing this crisis, there are

6:57

some fundamental structural elements

6:59

that we'll get into later on.

7:02

But I think the

7:05

way that I think about this is that these are

7:07

our neighbors, these are our brothers and sisters who

7:09

are economically, physically,

7:12

emotionally vulnerable

7:14

in our communities, oftentimes

7:16

not because of choices they've made as

7:18

individuals or families. That's

7:21

what I think is important for folks

7:24

to remember is whatever you see on

7:26

the street, there are so many traumas

7:29

that are unseen that

7:31

people are experiencing because of our

7:33

housing affordability crisis

7:36

that it requires a lot of nuance and complexity

7:39

in dealing with the solutions that we

7:41

bring forward.

7:42

I think about some of the

7:46

unhealthy emotions that attach to

7:49

what you talk about, feeling of shame

7:51

for something that

7:54

either because you are

7:56

trying to provide for your children the best way you

7:59

can.

7:59

or because you're showing up as

8:02

a child to school, not

8:04

like other kids.

8:06

Tommy, I wonder if you can

8:08

help us with your perspective on

8:12

what's going on behind what we really

8:14

see when we see people who are unhoused.

8:17

Picking up on a phrase that Tamika

8:20

used when we talk about trauma, this

8:23

is a daily state of trauma for

8:26

tens of thousands of people in LA, hundreds

8:29

of thousands of people in the state of California

8:31

and across this country. And it builds,

8:35

it builds in really

8:38

devastating ways. And then it passes

8:40

from parents to kids to future

8:42

generations. And so when we're talking about the failure

8:45

of our healthcare system, our housing system,

8:47

our education system, we have to be

8:49

thinking about the long-term consequences of

8:51

this and yet the sort of

8:53

default that so many Americans have in

8:55

their head as well, that must be their choice,

8:58

that must be their fault, that must be something

9:00

that they want.

9:02

I think it's very

9:05

hard, the reason I wanted to start

9:07

with this is because it is

9:09

so frequent that you have conversations with people

9:12

who want to talk about the quote unquote

9:14

homeless problem.

9:16

And I've taken to

9:18

ask people what they mean by

9:20

that when they say that, and

9:23

what they think the homeless problem is. And

9:26

often what I think the homeless problem is,

9:29

is the unsightly

9:32

tense that they

9:35

see on their freeway exit

9:38

or someone trying to wash the window of their car

9:41

at a freeway exit. And

9:45

if they go a little further, they might say

9:48

schizophrenia, they might say drug addiction.

9:52

And it's so many other

9:54

things in life, we don't allow our perception

9:56

to be entirely colored by the one

9:58

or two things we happen to see.

9:59

What are people missing

10:03

when that is their view of the

10:06

homeless problem? And I'm not trying to blame anybody

10:09

for having

10:10

the right or wrong view. I'm just

10:12

suggesting that,

10:14

you know, it's not something that people have

10:17

the kind of exposure

10:19

to that makes

10:21

this something they really understand how to think

10:24

about. Yeah,

10:26

I mean, I think it's really such

10:28

a

10:29

key point around the sort

10:31

of visual manifestation

10:33

of homelessness, when in fact, what we're talking

10:36

about is what Tommy just mentioned a

10:38

moment ago, which is housing

10:41

policies that have been intentionally

10:43

discriminatory against black and brown

10:45

folks in this country since its

10:48

formation. Failed education

10:50

systems where families with extremely

10:52

low incomes, those earning less than thirty

10:54

five thousand dollars a year are

10:57

not able to access quality education

10:59

or health system, not being able to, you

11:02

know, provide

11:02

adequate health care. These are

11:05

systemic challenges that

11:07

have compounded as he outlined.

11:10

And those

11:12

are the conditions that folks

11:14

are operating within to try

11:16

to take care of themselves and their families.

11:19

And so when an individual is

11:21

faced with every obstacle

11:24

and barrier because

11:26

of their incomes, because of their mental health

11:28

status, because of their lack

11:31

of community connections, you know, there

11:33

are a lot of folks

11:34

who might experience

11:36

a job loss like me. And

11:38

I have somebody I can call either

11:40

in my family or my friend network that

11:43

would be able to assist either

11:45

financially or provide a room. Many

11:48

folks who are living on the margins, those that

11:50

are, you

11:51

know, really in

11:53

that extremely low income housing

11:56

income category don't

11:58

have those community.

11:59

connections to rely on. So when

12:02

they have an economic

12:03

or social emergency,

12:05

there's nowhere to go except their car.

12:08

You know, when I was running Hamilton families,

12:10

one of the most staggering realities we were

12:13

confronted with was the fact that

12:15

for every family I housed, three

12:17

more families would become homeless during

12:19

the same period of time. So

12:21

with the number of folks in

12:23

those conditions that

12:26

are experiencing the

12:28

economic and social inequities

12:31

and challenges that are producing

12:34

the inflow into homelessness so

12:36

significantly, I think we have to

12:38

be much more strategic about

12:40

what the causes are. And

12:43

just one thing to jump in on that, Andy, because I think it's such

12:45

an important point. We at United

12:47

Way have been working on this issue in LA for 15 years. We

12:49

do regular focus groups,

12:53

public opinion surveys, research to try to

12:55

figure out where are public and political

12:58

attitudes around this. And in the survey

13:00

that we did just back in the

13:02

spring, seven in 10 voters

13:04

in LA County believed that it was the failure of

13:06

the housing system and the healthcare system

13:09

that was the primary cause of homelessness.

13:12

Three in 10 voters believed that it was a person's

13:14

individual actions or decisions. I

13:17

don't think that the same would be true if we did a national

13:19

survey, right? I think that is a

13:21

blue state and a blue county. But

13:23

what it tells me is that with the right amount of information,

13:26

with people really working to wrap their minds around this,

13:28

they can understand it. So we're not totally

13:31

screwed, but we have a lot of work to do.

13:33

That's really interesting data. And someone

13:36

promising to hear, I mean,

13:39

so what I'm hearing is a couple of things from

13:41

you. One is that

13:44

in addition to the people you're seeing on the street,

13:47

there are untold

13:49

numbers of families who

13:52

are couch surfing or in motels or

13:54

sleeping in their cars or in Walmart parking lots

13:57

that we don't see. It

14:00

might help our hearts a little bit

14:03

to figure out how to sympathize

14:05

with the person we see on the street. But

14:08

if you have a difficult time doing that, understand

14:11

that there are so many kids

14:13

who are born into this situation. And

14:15

then the second thing, the analogy has been used

14:17

with me before of musical chairs.

14:21

And that when you play musical chairs,

14:23

you have more people than chairs.

14:25

Well, in the state of California, we

14:28

are something like 2 million affordable housing

14:31

units short

14:32

of what we need. According to some estimates,

14:35

you may have different numbers than that.

14:38

But what that tells you is if you

14:40

are playing musical chairs and you happen

14:42

to be at the low end of the income scale, the

14:44

landlord's going to say, no, no, that chair is reserved

14:47

for the person that has the ability

14:49

to make the deposit, who has good credit

14:52

or has a better job or

14:54

whatever. So that unless

14:57

that math problem is fixed of enough

14:59

affordable housing units, there's

15:02

always going to be someone at the bottom end of that ladder.

15:04

So doesn't that make the point that in addition

15:06

to everything else, this is a really big structural

15:09

problem

15:10

and we got to stop blaming people?

15:13

Yes. Homelessness, in

15:15

my opinion, is first and foremost a housing

15:17

problem in our region and in our state. There

15:19

are folks who need permanent supportive

15:22

housing, which is a housing type

15:25

that provides wraparound services for its

15:27

residents. An ongoing rental subsidy

15:29

allows folks to live out their lives with

15:31

that deeply supported environment. But

15:34

there are a lot of folks who are experiencing

15:36

homelessness who don't need a lifetime

15:39

supportive services and

15:41

housing

15:41

supports. If in fact we had

15:44

the adequate housing supply

15:46

to rehouse folks, right? Let's

15:48

say during the pandemic, for example, we had

15:51

hundreds of thousands of folks who were experiencing

15:54

housing insecurity and homelessness, right?

15:57

And if we actually had enough housing, the

15:59

trauma that

15:59

the extended period of

16:02

time that people have to wait for deeply

16:04

subsidized housing to be built or

16:06

to be created. Folks

16:09

are getting sicker. Folks are getting much more exposed

16:11

to the elements. Folks are having so

16:13

much more negative experiences.

16:17

And if we actually had rental

16:19

assistance that allowed them to get that

16:22

rent paid that month or legal

16:25

services when they might have gotten an eviction

16:27

notice, but now they have the legal

16:29

support to provide. So it

16:32

requires us to have a much more responsive

16:35

system both on housing

16:38

production, having enough housing for everyone,

16:40

but also preventing homelessness when

16:42

we can. Because we have

16:45

so few

16:46

housing units available

16:48

for people, folks have to be so desperate

16:52

and challenged in order

16:54

to access

16:55

the small amount of

16:58

permanent supportive housing we have in our systems.

17:00

And so I think if we had

17:03

enough of the housing that folks need

17:06

at the income levels that they can afford,

17:08

then

17:10

that's how you solve the problem structurally.

17:13

Certainly folks need other income

17:15

supports and economic mobility work,

17:18

which we also do, but

17:20

if we had the fundamental foundational

17:22

housing piece, folks are going to have

17:25

a lot more

17:26

success. Well

17:28

as evidence of that, you know, you look

17:30

at other parts of the country where housing

17:33

is more affordable, whether it's Detroit

17:35

or Houston or San

17:38

Antonio or Atlanta,

17:40

and you don't have nearly the housing

17:42

crisis. And it's not as if you don't have

17:45

mental health problems and addiction challenges

17:47

and people losing their jobs and all kinds of

17:49

other things in those places, yet they

17:52

have

17:52

much more affordable housing stock

17:54

compared to the rest of the population.

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20:10

So let's zoom in Tommy on

20:12

California because it

20:14

is considered by this country

20:18

and by the numbers to be a bit of ground zero

20:21

in this conversation. Now

20:24

in California, we

20:26

had about a year ago or so a race

20:28

for the mayor in Los Angeles and

20:31

homelessness was the primary

20:33

issue that was

20:35

at least in the news and that was debated over.

20:38

Mayor Bass, the new mayor, has essentially

20:42

staged her

20:43

term on being able to make progress

20:46

and she's launched an initiative called Inside

20:49

Safe and she

20:51

wants to create quick action. She's

20:53

spending billions of dollars,

20:56

a lot of estate money

20:57

and yet she has said this is

21:00

going to get worse before it gets

21:02

better

21:03

because we don't have the

21:05

infrastructure, the housing stock. Take

21:08

us through Tommy,

21:10

what Los Angeles

21:12

is dealing with and what you think of

21:14

the mayor's plan.

21:16

Yeah. I mean, let's be clear, like Skid

21:18

Row began in the 1930s here in

21:20

LA, right? We

21:24

have had homelessness

21:27

and deep, deep poverty

21:29

here for a century, if

21:31

not longer. So this

21:33

has been building in LA for generations,

21:36

generations. And

21:39

through a confluence of events, mostly

21:41

the collapse of the housing system in LA, all

21:43

of a sudden these tents started popping up in places

21:45

outside of downtown LA. We'll be here for

21:48

a century, if not longer.

21:51

So this has been building in LA for generations,

21:54

generations. And

21:57

through a confluence of events, mostly

21:59

the collapse. of the housing system in LA,

22:01

all of a sudden these tents started popping up in places

22:04

outside of downtown LA, outside

22:06

of the sort of core metro area. And

22:08

it was when the tents started popping up in the San Fernando

22:11

Valley, when people started living in

22:13

their RVs or their cars in the

22:15

San Fernando Valley or on the west side of LA or the

22:17

San Gabriel Valley, all of a

22:19

sudden homelessness became the number one issue. That

22:21

was about 10 years ago. And all of a sudden homelessness

22:24

poll after poll, survey after survey is

22:26

the number one priority of voters. And

22:28

so what we can't do is confuse

22:29

homelessness being the number

22:32

one priority with a

22:34

willingness of elected officials

22:37

and the public

22:39

to attack the root causes of homelessness.

22:42

These are two different issues. And so

22:44

Mayor Bass is walking that tightrope

22:47

as we speak, where she is trying to come

22:49

up with solutions that bring

22:51

more folks indoors faster. That's

22:54

what Inside Safe is, right? She is buying,

22:56

she is renting and buying hotels and

22:58

motel rooms. And she's going out

23:00

to encampments and she's saying, I got

23:02

a room for you, come in right now. And people

23:05

are because lo and behold, most people don't want to live

23:07

outside, right? And so she's

23:09

doing that, but at tremendous cost and

23:11

it's not a scale play. $110 per night. Yeah,

23:14

it's not a scale play, right? That's $3,000 a month. That's

23:17

twice what a studio apartment rents for

23:20

in LA. So it's not a scale play.

23:23

She's not going to be able to bring in the 45,000 people

23:25

who are living outside into hotels and

23:27

motels at $110

23:28

a night. But what

23:30

she is trying to do, and we're in strong support

23:33

of it, is help anchor

23:37

in people's minds, in voters' minds, that

23:39

where there are options for people to come indoors,

23:41

they will gleefully and happily

23:44

come indoors. That nobody,

23:47

or at least the vast majority of folks, do not want to be living

23:49

outside. She's shown that, she's demonstrated

23:51

it. Now the question is, can we

23:53

do more? We've been doing a lot over the last five

23:55

years to create more housing.

23:57

Can we do more to create more housing? That's the

23:59

big question. How fast can we get there? So

24:02

this is a temporary play in order to get more housing

24:04

built. It brings me back to this conversation

24:07

that I have and that I'm sure we all have when

24:10

we talk to people who are casually

24:12

talking about the

24:15

unhoused. And in

24:17

one occasion,

24:19

more than one occasion, someone will have said to me the

24:21

problem and I'll say, whose fault do you think

24:23

it is? And they

24:26

will say, you know, whatever they say,

24:28

and they will ask me

24:30

whose fault do you think it is? And I say, well, I kind

24:32

of think it's your fault and my fault.

24:34

And I guess the question is, to what extent

24:37

is local NIMBYism

24:39

veiled as it is by

24:43

this kind of, I care about

24:45

the issue, just not enough

24:48

to have affordable housing in my neighborhood,

24:52

a problem, Tamika. The challenge

24:55

we have is, you know,

24:57

zoning laws are governed locally.

25:01

And when you have communities

25:03

that get to weigh in

25:05

on

25:06

any housing development project that

25:08

come that multifamily that

25:10

gets built in a community and

25:12

they go to their city council meetings or their boards

25:15

of supervisors meetings and contest

25:19

affordable housing developments because they're uncomfortable

25:22

with having those properties

25:24

in their communities. Or you have most

25:27

of the communities across the state of California

25:29

zone for single family housing

25:32

only. It's about it's more than 70%

25:34

of all of our

25:36

land across the state zone

25:38

for single families. You have to rezone

25:41

to be able to build multifamily

25:44

units, hundreds of units that we're going to

25:47

need at scale. Zoning

25:50

doesn't have to be a high rise, but you most certainly

25:52

have to be flexible in creating

25:55

different building types in your

25:57

communities in order to solve

25:59

this challenge. And I think, as Tommy

26:02

said, this is historic.

26:04

I mean, the Bay Area has

26:07

almost been identified

26:08

for its nimbyism, the sort of protectionism

26:12

of our land and

26:14

space and the environmental protections, which

26:17

are critical to having

26:20

lovely parks and green spaces

26:22

and all of the things. But we've kind of used

26:26

our laws and voice

26:29

as weapons against the solutions that

26:31

we actually need to help solve

26:33

the challenges that our entire

26:36

society is experiencing. Homelessness

26:38

isn't just happening to the person who is unhoused.

26:41

The crisis of homelessness is happening

26:43

to our entire neighborhood, to

26:46

our entire community, and to our entire

26:48

region and state. And so when you

26:50

say it's our fault and your fault, we

26:52

have to be yes on housing.

26:55

We have to be flexible about what

26:57

kinds of housing gets built, how

26:59

quickly those processes

27:01

get moved forward in order for us

27:03

to deliver the housing units

27:05

in a timely way. In

27:07

the Bay Area, I can't speak for Los Angeles,

27:10

but in order to build

27:12

a building of 100 units, it takes

27:15

anywhere from three to five years to get those units

27:17

online. We've made efforts to streamline

27:20

some of those policies, both at the

27:22

state level and locally,

27:24

but it takes a really long time to build housing.

27:27

And unless we can shorten that

27:29

time, make it cheaper, make

27:31

it faster and more reliable, for

27:34

our developer community to build those housing

27:36

units, we're going to be in this swirl

27:39

of

27:40

temporary solutions, sort

27:43

of thrown at a historic problem.

27:46

Does it take a long time or do we make it take

27:48

a long time? I mean, in China and

27:50

in India, you could build

27:52

apartment buildings kind of in months. I

27:56

will admit that

27:57

I was someone who used to go to a place like Houston

27:59

and say, Oh

28:00

my God, you could see the lack of zoning

28:03

everywhere. You could see a gas

28:05

station next to a law office,

28:07

next to a residential building. But you

28:09

know what, at this point in time,

28:11

I apologize for my

28:13

old self, and I see the error

28:15

of my ways,

28:16

because it is easier to get

28:18

affordable housing built. And I

28:21

think

28:22

political power amasses where

28:24

people have resources and property.

28:27

And

28:28

I'm encouraged by what you said, Tommy, that

28:30

seven in 10 people

28:33

recognize that it's not the

28:35

person to blame and that it's a system to blame.

28:39

But I wonder if people really realize to

28:41

what extent they're the key to

28:44

that system changing.

28:45

I think, to turn

28:48

Richard Nixon's phrase around, the silent majority

28:50

knows it and understands

28:53

that they are the ones to blame. It is the reason

28:56

why here in California, our

28:58

state legislature over the last five to 10-ish

29:00

years has

29:04

done some remarkable rolling back

29:06

of local zoning power and local land use

29:08

power. Remarkable. The cities

29:11

in California were in charge of

29:13

housing policy.

29:15

The cities and the city leaders are responsive

29:17

to the loudest, angriest, meanest

29:19

voices. And then, throw on top of that, at least

29:21

in the city of LA, elections were structured

29:23

so that they avoided the high turnout

29:25

elections. So in the city of LA, the elections

29:28

were all like May and June

29:30

because they didn't wanna have big turnout. They didn't wanna

29:33

have a larger slice of the population voting. And

29:35

so that's who was creating our housing policy in

29:37

LA. And the consequence was down zoning LA

29:39

by 3 million units over the last 30

29:41

years, which is remarkable.

29:44

And so

29:45

Sacramento looked at that, and for a while

29:47

they wouldn't touch it, right? Jerry Brown refused

29:49

to touch housing and homelessness for like the

29:52

first six years of his eight years.

29:54

I was gonna say seven and a half. I was gonna

29:56

say, I was being charitable in the six years

29:59

for the first seven.

29:59

One and a half, Jerry was like, that's a local issue and you

30:02

all need to figure it out locally. Jerry

30:04

Brown number two was a lot different than Jerry Brown

30:06

number one. He lost a lot of courage

30:08

and vision. He was good at making that government

30:10

work up there. He knew where all the bodies were buried,

30:13

but he stopped pushing, which was real disappointing.

30:16

And so he didn't want anything to do with housing and homelessness,

30:18

but the legislature, to their credit, looked around and said, holy

30:20

shit, this is not working. And

30:23

so we need to start passing laws that allow

30:25

people to build another unit

30:27

in their backyard,

30:28

called an accessory dwelling unit, which

30:31

was fully illegal. So

30:33

the policy was we want your backyard to be

30:35

grass and trees and

30:38

only for your use and not for people to live.

30:40

And so that was a state law change and it has been transformative.

30:43

And it's now one of the number one permitted

30:45

types of housing here in LA County. And

30:48

so just dramatic growth on

30:51

basically removing the barriers to creating housing.

30:53

And Sacramento has been driving that. Well,

30:56

let's talk about what's not a barrier. I

30:58

believe, correct me if I'm wrong, I've had conversations

31:00

with him. I believe we have a governor who gets

31:02

it, who understands the problem. I believe

31:05

we have a governor

31:06

who is actually more than surface

31:08

deep in this, but you

31:10

both might have a different perspective. I

31:13

believe he's got

31:14

budget, $20 billion that

31:16

he wants to spend over the next several years.

31:19

It sounds like there's increased awareness that

31:22

you're pointing out and it sounds like we are changing

31:25

laws and we're electing politicians

31:29

like Mayor Bass,

31:30

Mayor Breed,

31:32

who I think are people

31:34

who understand this issue. And in fact, to

31:37

be honest, it doesn't hurt that the eyes of the country

31:40

are sort of on California and say, y'all

31:42

have a problem.

31:43

What are you going to do about it?

31:45

Are these the conditions under which they make

31:47

you optimistic, Tamika?

31:50

It's such a great question because leadership

31:52

is so important. I think the challenge

31:54

we have is that the issue

31:56

of homelessness is generational.

31:59

It cannot be solved in political cycles

32:02

or with one time intermittent

32:05

funding.

32:06

We have to have a sustained

32:08

set of strategies that are adequately

32:11

funded at the scale in which we have

32:13

to tackle the challenge. And

32:15

we need our elected leaders, our

32:18

folks with

32:18

lived experiences, our business

32:21

leaders. We need everybody

32:23

in our community buying

32:25

into short-term, mid-term

32:27

and long-term strategies that are

32:29

well supported over time in

32:32

order for California, the Bay Area,

32:34

Los Angeles to actually address

32:37

homelessness

32:38

once and for all. So I

32:40

think our biggest challenge is having the political

32:43

courage and frankly,

32:46

throughout all levels of government that's

32:49

informed by community that's in

32:51

sync with our business and philanthropic partners,

32:54

right, to be like, okay folks, this is

32:56

not a

32:57

one-time multi-billion

32:59

dollar problem. This is a decades

33:02

old, hundreds of billion dollars of

33:04

challenge that we have to chunk out

33:07

and figure out what is the highest

33:09

and best use of our resources and strategies

33:11

over a sustained period of time. So I think

33:14

that's our sort of Achilles

33:15

heel in everybody

33:18

asks me, Andy, we are spending

33:20

more money on this issue than we ever have before

33:23

and it feels like it's getting worse. Well, guess what

33:25

folks? It is getting worse. It's

33:27

getting worse for

33:28

poor people to sustain themselves

33:30

in California where you have a studio

33:33

apartment in San Francisco going

33:35

for $3,500 a month and

33:39

more than 100,000 folks

33:41

in the nine-county Bay Area are earning

33:43

less than $35,000 a month. Black

33:46

folks in San Francisco, on average

33:48

their area median income is $30,000

33:50

a year. So

33:53

tell me how you expect

33:55

and mind you, we haven't really talked about

33:58

the racial disparities that exist among folks.

33:59

folks who are experiencing homelessness and

34:02

poverty. This isn't happening to everyone. In

34:04

any community across the state, Black,

34:07

brown and indigenous folks are so disproportionately

34:10

impacted by this crisis. If we don't

34:12

have racialized

34:14

informed policies about how to undo

34:17

the racial discrimination that got folks in this

34:19

position in the first place, then we're really not doing

34:21

the work. So again, we gotta

34:23

build the units, we gotta understand the

34:26

culturally responsive impacts,

34:28

and then we have to sustain our investments.

34:31

Can we dig into that for a second, because I want

34:33

people to understand what it is you're talking about. I

34:37

think not everybody knows

34:40

the history of,

34:41

for example, the GI Bill and how it worked for

34:43

certain people and not others,

34:45

about how recently there was red lining,

34:48

about the inability for

34:51

Black and brown communities to get

34:53

loans, to just pick a

34:56

few things so

34:59

I know that there's sensitivity in our society

35:01

today. Well, the Supreme Court

35:03

seems to think so, and Ron DeSantis

35:06

seems to think so, that we

35:08

should stop talking about things

35:10

in racial terms. But I

35:13

think it's important to understand

35:16

how we got here and

35:18

not how we got here just

35:20

over the last several hundred years, which I think everybody

35:23

should have a perspective on despite what I'm

35:26

saying this thing should be taught in schools,

35:28

but how we've been getting here even in the last

35:30

number of decades and more recently.

35:33

I mean, a million percent. You

35:35

touched on the long

35:38

legacy of racism in housing. What

35:40

about healthcare? Who qualified for

35:42

Medicaid in this country until

35:45

the Affordable Care Act? Who was able

35:48

to get access to high quality healthcare?

35:50

It certainly wasn't

35:52

single adults who were

35:54

out there trying to figure out how to hold

35:56

down a minimum wage job that didn't provide health insurance

35:59

and then deal with it.

35:59

their knee or their back or whatever was going

36:02

on, right? Like the list goes on

36:04

and on and on. I saw a great tweet over the weekend that

36:06

was sort of looking at the anniversary

36:08

of the Civil Rights Act as the actual

36:11

beginning of democracy in this country.

36:13

Well, well, that wasn't very long ago and now

36:15

they're working to roll that thing back. So it shows up

36:18

in every space and place

36:21

across this country. The thing that gives me

36:23

a

36:24

little bit of hope on this one is I think that

36:28

millennials,

36:30

exers, certainly the zer's,

36:32

I see the next generations that

36:34

are assuming power now, understanding

36:38

this, not being scared by this, not being intimidated

36:40

by this, but naming it and

36:42

now working to solve it. I don't have

36:44

quite as much confidence in the silent generation and

36:46

the boomers out there, but I think that

36:49

with generational change and a shift

36:51

for what generations hold power, I see

36:54

a little bit of a shift of hope and a little bit of opportunity.

37:06

I'm

37:25

Jane Black. And I'm Liz Dunn. We're moms

37:27

and we're food journalists. And in

37:32

Pressure

37:44

Cooker, we tackle some of the thorniest

37:46

issues around how we feed our kids. How

37:49

important is family dinner and

37:51

why do kids refuse to

37:53

eat their vegetables? To find out, we're

37:55

talking to experts and hearing from parents locked

37:58

in the daily struggle to feed little people.

37:59

with big personalities. Listen

38:02

to Pressure Cooker wherever you get your podcasts.

38:04

People

38:11

on the show have heard me say this

38:13

before. I've

38:19

been involved in mostly

38:22

related to health, but in

38:24

efforts to fight disparities.

38:27

And what I have learned, and

38:29

maybe it's applicable here,

38:31

is it takes

38:34

initiative and it takes effort.

38:36

And if you take account

38:38

of those things,

38:40

you can really make a difference.

38:42

If you don't

38:44

take account of those things, you've got very little chance. And

38:46

there has been in healthcare

38:48

no greater force for health equity than

38:50

the expansion of Medicaid. And

38:52

you can look across the country, if

38:54

you're vulnerable to anything that's

38:57

going to cost you $500 or $1,000, and

38:59

that's going to throw you into bankruptcy or not cause

39:01

you to make rent.

39:03

It is very difficult

39:05

to

39:06

lead

39:07

even a semblance of a life focused

39:09

on your future and the future of your children. And

39:12

so people think that health care

39:15

coverage is just about healthcare. It's not. It's

39:17

about the underpinning for people

39:20

to lead a

39:21

life which allows them to focus

39:23

on things other than just survival. We're

39:26

getting a little bit away from homelessness and a little bit

39:28

deeper into some broader issues, but I think

39:30

they're all linked here, aren't they?

39:32

They really are. And I think that's the

39:34

key, Andy, is that they're so interconnected.

39:37

And unless we have

39:39

that sort of

39:40

sustained understanding

39:43

of where these disparities

39:45

began and how they persist,

39:48

I mean,

39:49

it's always interesting to me

39:51

when folks are like, yeah, but

39:54

we do care about racial equity

39:56

and we want to make sure that

39:59

you

40:00

know, black folks who are in brown people who

40:03

are going through the homelessness response system are

40:05

not having disparate outcomes. Well, the

40:07

fact of the matter is, if we're only looking

40:09

at the homelessness response system and

40:12

solving those racial equities, then we're failing because

40:15

we're not looking at the inputs. We're not looking

40:17

at the income

40:19

disparities, the lack of access

40:22

to quality health care,

40:24

right? So if the inputs are only

40:26

looking at one system, we're

40:28

not looking at the broader picture. We're not

40:30

seeing foster care and

40:33

how that is racialized

40:35

and leading to our young people experiencing

40:39

homelessness and

40:39

housing insecurity. We're not looking at the LGBTQ

40:43

population, both of young people and adults

40:45

who are, you know, experiencing

40:49

disparities much more significantly than

40:51

their peers. So again, I wish

40:53

it were simple.

40:54

I do. I think the solutions are simple,

40:57

but I wish the issue was much more simple where

41:00

folks could be like, got it. These

41:02

things are connected. Right.

41:04

We have an unnatural craving for a

41:07

silver bullet. Yes, we really do. And

41:09

when we don't find silver bullet, we lose patience.

41:11

So maybe this is a good place for us to finish the conversation,

41:14

which is what can we do? I

41:16

think people

41:17

want to know, they're

41:19

getting that 70%

41:21

of people who believe this is a structural problem. They

41:23

may be people who understand that they have a role

41:25

to play. Let's generate a list,

41:27

not of one thing, because there's that one silver bullet,

41:30

but let's just generate a list among us of

41:32

the what can you do if

41:34

you want to help turn this around

41:38

for people who are listening to this.

41:40

I might be to jump in. I mean, I think a few things.

41:42

I think that our biggest challenge

41:45

is getting folks who agree, who understand

41:48

this, who want to see a different future to

41:50

say that to anybody else, to say

41:52

it to their colleagues, to say what,

41:55

to say what, to say that,

41:57

you know, I really, I think

41:59

the prime The primary reason for homelessness is

42:01

the fact that there's not enough housing for people and

42:04

we got to be creating more housing. To publicly

42:06

identify the need for more affordable housing. That's

42:10

good. People trust their friends, they

42:13

trust their family members, they trust their colleagues,

42:15

right? Like, and who talks about this stuff?

42:18

Especially in California where everybody's talking about homelessness

42:20

and housing all the time, it defaults to

42:22

the stereotypes. But under the surface

42:24

there, people know, people understand. So I think

42:27

communicating to your friends and family, like, if you hear

42:29

this podcast,

42:29

share it with five people.

42:32

That you heard this interesting conversation

42:34

that pulled back the layers of the onion a little bit more

42:36

than you'd heard it before.

42:38

That's critical. Share the podcast.

42:40

I like that. That's a good suggestion.

42:42

I'm here to help. What else? What

42:45

other things? I have a couple. So one of the things

42:47

that we really think

42:50

is key in this solution set is making

42:52

concurrent investments in

42:55

housing, building more housing,

42:58

getting it done as fast as we can, homelessness

43:00

prevention and interim solutions.

43:04

If you can encourage your communities to not

43:06

just choose one, Tommy

43:08

said this, Mayor Bass is not going to solve the

43:10

homelessness crisis by just creating

43:13

temporary solutions. We need permanent

43:15

housing and we need to

43:16

be able to have resources to prevent folks

43:18

from experiencing homelessness in the first place.

43:21

And we can't do the piecemeal peanut butter effect

43:23

that we've been doing for decades. We need concurrent

43:25

investments at scale

43:26

and we need to hold our policymakers

43:29

and communities accountable for making

43:31

those concurrent investments. The second

43:34

thing, Andy, is we are actually

43:36

working state general obligation

43:38

bonds for housing, which is a really high threshold

43:41

to something lower than that. So

43:44

we have some leadership in the legislature

43:46

who is working on this, ACA 1. We

43:49

really want to encourage

43:51

folks to understand that we have to give ourselves

43:53

the tools to enable more housing

43:55

production and this is one. supportive

44:00

of lowering the threshold for the vote. Voter threshold.

44:03

Voter threshold, okay. That's right. Okay,

44:05

good. And then the last thing I'd say is sort of, you know, this

44:07

is, it sounds small,

44:10

but it's significant. Say yes to housing,

44:13

period. Like no

44:15

matter what project is

44:18

happening in your community,

44:20

if it's an ADU, if it's a multifamily,

44:22

if it's a whatever, if you have concerns

44:25

about the project that could make the project

44:27

better, what's your concerns? But

44:29

please do not block housing development

44:32

in your communities and then the next breath

44:34

complain about

44:35

homelessness. And then go speak up because

44:37

there'll be people who will be at that city council

44:39

meeting, who will be saying,

44:41

you're going to change the character and

44:43

the nature of our community

44:45

and so on. I'm going to add one

44:47

more and see if you agree with it. If

44:50

you were in the position in your life where

44:52

you are paying people, the people

44:54

that work for you,

44:55

pay them enough to live in the

44:57

community where they live.

45:00

There's this great line from the author Colton

45:02

Whitehead where he says, minimum

45:04

wage is another way of saying, if I

45:07

could pay you less, I would.

45:08

And I think it's a responsibility

45:11

that if everybody takes to say, hey,

45:14

if you're working for me, I'm paying

45:16

you,

45:17

you are going to have enough to live in this

45:20

community based upon what I pay

45:22

you.

45:23

That's something that lots of people have

45:25

control over

45:26

and lots of people should be able

45:28

to address and work on. Completely

45:31

agree. We work on economic

45:33

security issues. That is one of the key

45:36

strategies. Folks need livable

45:38

wages, family sustaining

45:40

wages. One of the challenges we saw in

45:42

the Bay Area, this is a quick stat. I know we're getting to

45:44

the end of time. So between 2000 and 2010,

45:46

our region added 435,000

45:47

jobs to our region. Job

45:53

rich, amazing. We

45:57

added 55,000 units of housing during that same period of time.

45:59

So, A, pay

46:02

people what they need in order to afford

46:04

the housing, and B, build

46:07

enough of the housing. Build enough of the housing.

46:09

So, I'll go back to one thing. I'll make one amendment

46:11

to something you said earlier, which is if you

46:13

have

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constructive criticism to

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make on someone's project,

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go ahead and make it. Here is what constructive criticism

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is.