0:00

Hello friend, thank you so much for downloading

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this podcast and I hope you hear something

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truly. I mean this from the bottom of my heart. Something

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that edifies equips, enlightens,

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encourages, and then gently

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but firmly gets you out there into the marketplace

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of ideas. I so appreciate you're taking the time to

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listen, but before you start the broadcast, let

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me just take a moment and explain that this month's truth

0:19

tool is called Sikh. Sikh,

0:22

written by my friend David Robertson, my

0:24

favourite Scottish apologist who is currently serving

0:26

the Lord in Australia. He comes and

0:28

visits with us once a month and

0:30

he wrote a book called ask, and

0:32

now he's written a follow up book called Seek

0:34

Real Word Answers

0:37

to Real World Questions. And

0:39

so he literally goes through a whole series of

0:41

questions like, is there ever a good lie?

0:43

Or does the Bible have mistakes? Or

0:45

what does the Bible say about climate change? Or

0:47

what's the difference between capitalism

0:50

and communism? And the list goes on

0:52

and on and on. So it is a fabulous

0:54

reference book that I know you're going to

0:56

want to put in your legacy library. So if

0:58

you'd like a copy of Seek and we are a

1:00

listener supported radio, I'd love to

1:02

send one to you. When you give a gift of any amount

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to support in the market with Janet partial,

1:07

simply call 877 Janet

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1:11

58 and offer a gift of any

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amount. We'll send you a copy of David's book, seek

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or if you'd rather do it online, go

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to in the market with Janet partial.org.

1:21

Scroll to the bottom of the page. There's the cover.

1:23

It has a brain on the cover so you can't

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miss it. Click on the cover of the book, make

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your gift right through the website, and

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we'll send you a copy of Seek by

1:31

David Robertson. Great tool to have

1:34

one of those important little volumes in

1:36

your ready reference library. And I know you're going

1:38

to be blessed. By the way, when you're on the website, you

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might want to consider being a partial partner. Those

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Either way, it helps us financially to

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Janet 58 877

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Janet 58 or online at in the market with

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Janet partial.org. Now

2:05

please enjoy the broadcast. Hi,

2:13

friends. This is Janet Parshall, and I want to welcome

2:15

you to the best of in the market. Today's

2:17

program is pre-recorded so our phone lines

2:19

are not open. But I do hope you'll enjoy today's

2:21

edition of the Best of In the Market with

2:23

Janet. Partial.

2:25

Here are some of the news headlines we were watching.

2:26

The conference was over. The president won a pledge.

2:29

Americans worshiped in government over God.

2:31

Extremely rare safety move by

2:33

a nation.

2:34

Teen years. The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.

2:36

This is not.

2:52

Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with

2:54

Janet partial. Oh, I just know ahead of time this

2:56

is going to be a great hour of encouragement

2:58

for a whole lot of people

3:01

who really struggle with this idea.

3:03

Maybe it's because we haven't fully grasped the

3:05

idea of amazing Grace. Boy,

3:07

we sing about it. We love it when the bagpipes play it,

3:09

but maybe at its core, we really don't

3:11

understand it. You know, it is what Christ did

3:14

for us, not what we have to do

3:16

for him. And it's this old ancient

3:18

idea of works. If it isn't

3:20

works that get you to the cross, and it's

3:23

works that have to keep you at the cross, and

3:25

that doesn't get found anywhere within the parameters

3:27

of Scripture, and sometimes that works

3:29

part translates into thinking you've got to be

3:31

perfect. Oh, what a joke.

3:34

Every single day. I mean, if Paul,

3:36

if great brother Paul can say, look,

3:38

I'm struggling all the time on my own flesh, the stuff

3:40

I don't want to do, I do the things I should

3:42

be doing, I don't do. And he talks

3:44

about who will relieve me of this man

3:47

of death. By the way, do you know what the background of that is?

3:49

Oh, I love studying Bible history, but

3:51

this is really gross when Paul

3:53

talks about that. If you murdered

3:55

somebody in the ancient days of Rome,

3:58

do you know what your punishment was? You had

4:00

to have strapped to your back

4:02

the corpse of the person that you

4:04

murdered with the idea that eventually,

4:06

as the corpse decayed, the infection from

4:08

the dead man would work its way into

4:10

you went. The Romans created with ways to do death.

4:13

Interesting culture. But by the way, they're just rubble and

4:15

stone right now, so don't worry about their rising

4:17

from the ashes, because they're not going to. But

4:19

this man of death that Paul talks about literally

4:21

is this translation of the infection, the

4:23

sickness of the dead man being infused

4:25

into the live man until the live man gets

4:28

that very same infection and then dies. So

4:30

if Paul struggles with that kind of a graphic

4:33

word picture, what about the rest of us

4:35

who struggle with this idea of having to

4:37

be perfect? Well, we're going to talk this

4:39

hour with someone who's written a wonderful book called Permission

4:41

to Be Imperfect.

4:44

Raise your hand. That's. Yeah. Oh, I thought so.

4:47

All across the country, the subtitle says

4:49

How to Strive less stress, less

4:51

sinless. I like that, and I'm

4:53

so glad I get to talk to Kyle Winkler again.

4:55

Kyle is back with me again. He's a practical

4:57

Bible teacher who equips people to live in victory.

5:00

And the reason we talk the first time is because he wrote

5:02

a book that goes after the name of a mobile

5:04

app that he's got called Shut Up, Devil,

5:07

and if that'll get your attention,

5:09

it did mine, and to this day

5:11

still ranks as a top Christian app.

5:13

He's an author. He's a sought after speaker.

5:15

He's a frequent guest guest on Christian TV

5:17

from TBN to CBN, and

5:20

he is known for using his own story

5:22

to boast in the power of God's Word for victory

5:24

over fear, insecurity, and issues

5:26

of the past. Guess what? He got a master's

5:28

of Divinity in Biblical Studies from Regent

5:31

University, and we've got a website

5:33

where you can learn more about Kyle. But today

5:35

he joins us so we can discuss his newest book,

5:37

Permission to Be Imperfect

5:39

How to Strive Less, Stress less,

5:41

Sin less. And I think that's what a whole

5:44

lot of us want. But, Kyle, you didn't just go. Whatever

5:46

shall I write about today? This is part of your

5:48

spiritual journey as well. Talk to me about that.

5:51

Yes. Thank you. Janet, once again, honored to be

5:53

here, by the way. But yeah, it is.

5:55

It is my story. And I write about

5:58

it quite a bit in the book. I

6:00

take you through my journey, really, because there's so many other

6:02

people's journeys in one way or

6:04

another. But as long

6:06

as I can remember, like

6:08

I take it all the way back to potty training, I

6:11

just felt like there was something just

6:13

so wrong with me. Couldn't quite put my finger

6:15

on it. But then as I got into

6:17

elementary school and

6:19

I was so incredibly shy, I'm still

6:22

a natural introvert. But back then I was

6:24

just so almost debilitating. Shy.

6:26

They thought that I had a reading problem because of it.

6:28

They'd call on me to read aloud and I would just

6:30

freeze up. Anyway, what

6:32

all of that did is caused me to be the outcast

6:34

and the loner, and the one picked last for

6:36

just about everything, sitting alone at the lunch table.

6:39

So as as I get older,

6:41

that morphs from I feel wrong

6:43

to I am wrong, you know, an identity

6:46

of shame. So at 16

6:48

years old, I learned

6:50

about the power of God in a way I never knew

6:52

possible. And I learned about Scripture

6:54

in a way I'd never known either. And

6:57

I think I thought that,

6:59

okay, nothing else will work to fix all

7:01

of this in me before to fix this wrong

7:03

feeling. Maybe the faith will

7:05

do it. And it did, just

7:08

in a different way than I

7:10

thought at the time. So I took to the faith is

7:12

like a self-improvement program, and

7:15

the Bible has nothing more than a book of instructions

7:17

to help fix me up and grow me up and change

7:19

me up so that I might be

7:21

able to be loved and accepted

7:24

by God. And that took me

7:27

down a ten year path of

7:29

rules and discipline and

7:31

perfectionism, trying to earn

7:34

my way into God's good graces.

7:37

And I did just

7:39

about every spiritual discipline,

7:41

all kinds of service in the

7:43

church every night of the week, you

7:45

name it. I tried it and

7:48

it only ended up making me worse,

7:50

not better. And so I get

7:52

to the point of asking God, what more

7:54

do I have to do to live in this

7:56

victory? And he said to me

7:59

that my doing is the problem,

8:03

my earning, my proving.

8:05

I was trying to prove things that Jesus already

8:07

proved and do things that Jesus already did.

8:10

That getting better wasn't

8:12

actually the ultimate goal of

8:14

the faith, but it was being loved. I would actually

8:16

get better naturally as I learned

8:18

how to receive the love

8:20

of God. So that's what

8:22

I take people through in

8:24

this book. Permission to be imperfect

8:27

is is really how

8:29

to live in God's grace and

8:31

allow him to love you.

8:32

I love the way you articulated that, and it

8:34

raises just a series of questions because you know,

8:37

Kyle, that you're not the only person who struggles

8:39

in this area. This gets up. It's a Xerox

8:41

copy machine for so many believers.

8:43

So where does that come from? Why do we

8:45

think? I mean, we allege when we accept Christ

8:47

as our personal savior, when we really dig

8:50

into the word, and it says that if we confess with

8:52

our mouth this Jesus is Lord, and believe

8:54

in our heart that God has raised him from the dead, we will be saved.

8:56

There it is. There's the proclamation. If

8:58

we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive

9:00

us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So

9:02

all of doing is him. The

9:05

being is us. We get to be in his

9:07

presence and receive his love. So

9:09

where and how do so many of us

9:11

gum this up, where we think we've got

9:13

to do somehow, which opens

9:15

a trapdoor to ugly legalism among a myriad

9:17

of other things?

9:18

Fantastic question. And I think that a lot

9:20

of it comes down to our culture.

9:23

Of course, it's were raised in a do to get

9:25

society, and I hear the music. So we can

9:27

talk more about that after the break. Yes,

9:29

but that's what it comes down to do to

9:31

get we live in, achieve, to succeed, perform,

9:33

to prove. And and we're trained

9:36

through culture with that. And then it gets into the religious world.

9:38

Oh boy does it ever. Oh, oh, oh, I'm glad we have

9:40

a whole hour because I've got a lot to ask you, Kyle,

9:42

but let's pick it up at exactly this point. So

9:45

where does it come from? You can't find the cure

9:47

if you don't first identify the disease. So

9:49

may this be an hour of encouragement. You're listening

9:52

all across the country, from Guam to

9:54

the Cayman Islands. How many of you struggle with this

9:56

idea of having to be perfect somehow,

9:58

in your relationship with Jesus? Permission

10:00

to be imperfect Carl Winkler's brand

10:03

new book back after this. The

10:11

Bible says those who seek will find.

10:13

That means if you're looking for biblical answers

10:15

to questions the world is asking, you will find

10:17

them. And it's why I've chosen seek

10:20

as this month's truth tool. Get biblical

10:22

answers to multiple questions on God, society,

10:24

theology, and more. As for your

10:26

copy of seek, when you give a gift of any amount

10:29

to in the market, call 877 Janet

10:31

58. That's 877 Janet 58

10:33

or go to in the market with Janet partial. Org.

10:38

Bible teacher Kyle Winkler is with us.

10:40

He's also the creator of Shut Up

10:42

Devil, which to this day ranks as one

10:45

of the top Christian apps. He joins

10:47

us today because he's got a brand new book that really emanates

10:49

out of his own personal story, but he's astute

10:51

enough to understand this was not

10:53

just a struggle in his own life, that this is

10:55

a struggle that so many of us have as

10:57

believers, that somehow we think

10:59

we just have to be perfect and we are exhausted

11:02

in the process of doing it and really fail to

11:04

understand God's amazing

11:06

grace. The book is called permission to Be Imperfect

11:09

How to Strive Less, Stress Less

11:11

and Sinless. And so we just started

11:14

to get in it before the break. Kyle, which is the idea

11:16

of from where does this idea emanate?

11:18

Because we, we, we profess to

11:20

understand the principles of salvation

11:22

through faith and grace alone.

11:24

So where do we superglue all this

11:26

stuff? This performance, which is in many

11:28

respects works onto what is

11:30

a grace based faith. So where do you think that

11:32

comes from?

11:33

Yeah, I think as I said before, we get programmed

11:36

by it from culture and that really

11:38

goes all the way back to the beginning. I mean, back to

11:40

the story of Adam and Eve, back through the the

11:42

tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Ever since

11:44

that first fall, humans have been trying.

11:47

It's what religion is. They've been trying to

11:49

achieve and earn and prove something

11:52

to or for God. And so that

11:54

has gotten into our culture. It's gotten into

11:56

our politics. It's gotten into our work

11:58

environment. You know, we hear the word quid pro

12:00

quo, which is due to git. It's it's

12:02

all just different versions of

12:05

how we're taught that to achieve your dreams,

12:07

it takes a whole lot of work and a whole lot

12:09

of muscle and a whole lot of effort and

12:11

in the natural, in many ways it does,

12:14

of course, but that's

12:16

the natural. We're talking about the spiritual.

12:18

And unfortunately, what happens is

12:20

all of our culture

12:23

ends up getting into the church culture to where

12:25

we think, well, if it if it takes so

12:27

much to earn something from

12:29

maybe a parent or a boss or a teacher,

12:32

then how much more must it take to

12:34

earn something from God

12:36

Almighty? So we treat him in the same

12:38

way as as we've treated others.

12:40

Or we believe that he's the same as others have treated

12:43

us. And so suddenly we

12:45

we strive and

12:47

strive to, as I said earlier, to

12:50

achieve something that Jesus already achieved

12:52

or approved, something that Jesus

12:54

already proved. And all that leads

12:56

to is burnout

12:59

and exhaustion, because you

13:01

cannot possibly do enough. And that's

13:03

the reason why Jesus

13:05

came. I think of something the apostle Paul said

13:07

in Romans 12 two

13:10

A lot of us know it. It's the renewal of the mind

13:12

verse. And right before there he says,

13:15

don't be conformed to the pattern of this world,

13:17

but be transformed by the renewal

13:19

of the mind. A lot of people will think the pattern

13:22

of this world is talking about sin, and

13:24

stop sinning and and don't follow,

13:26

you know, all, of, all of the world's

13:28

ways. Really, what he was talking about

13:30

there was the pattern of do to get, perform,

13:33

to please, achieve, to succeed. It

13:35

was the pattern of rule keeping commandment keeping

13:37

law keeping that they were

13:39

into back then that they believed enough sacrifices,

13:42

enough suffering that was going to please God. He's

13:44

saying, break from all of that. That's not

13:46

how you please God. Be transformed

13:48

in your mind to know that you please God through your

13:50

faith in Jesus alone. And

13:53

as you remember that, you

13:55

renew your mind that Jesus has already

13:57

done the work that's going to start

13:59

to transform you from the inside out. It's

14:01

going to bring you the peace and

14:04

and the love that God has placed

14:06

in your heart. That's going to start to come from the inside

14:08

out. So so that's what real

14:10

Christianity is. It's it's not all this

14:13

do not all this commandment keeping

14:15

it's it's allowing yourself

14:18

to be loved by God and let him live

14:20

his life through you.

14:21

Yeah. You know, you hear

14:23

the pages of my Bible flipping here because when you

14:25

were talking, I was thinking, let me tell you how

14:28

widespread this problem is, quite frankly, how

14:30

old it is. So I was in the book of revelation

14:32

over the weekend, and it was interesting because

14:34

when John is writing

14:36

in the Isle of Patmos to the seven churches, and he writes

14:38

to the church at Ephesus, he lists all

14:40

these things that they're doing that are terrific.

14:42

And it was like, wow, you're toil,

14:44

your patience, your endurance. You

14:46

can't bear those who are evil. And I'm thinking, man,

14:48

that's great. This is going to be a fabulous church.

14:50

And then he goes, but this I have

14:53

against you. And guess what? It is that you've

14:55

abandoned the love you had

14:57

at first. So isn't this a perfect picture of the doing

14:59

and the being? So they were doing, doing,

15:01

doing all of these things. And what John

15:03

is the Lord speaking through John in

15:06

the book of Revelation is. But that's

15:08

wonderful. But you don't love me.

15:10

You're. Doing these things. You're checking all of these

15:12

boxes, but you're cold.

15:14

In terms of your personal affection and relationship

15:16

with me, I'm wondering when we get bound

15:18

up in this doing. And again, this

15:21

portends this, uh, being trapped

15:23

in the spider's web of legalism as well.

15:25

No wonder people get frustrated. They could also

15:27

walk away from the faith because you're not sensing

15:29

and knowing God's love in that kind of an environment,

15:31

are you?

15:33

Great point. No you're not. You are

15:35

completely striving to get something

15:38

because you think that often that God doesn't love

15:40

you. And that's that's what I realized in

15:42

writing this book. Of course, it comes out of my own

15:44

journey, but it also comes out of a decade

15:47

of receiving prayer request and ministry

15:49

where I found that

15:52

most of the toxic behaviors,

15:54

moods and attitudes, addictions, all of

15:56

that stuff, that. We

15:58

don't want to do ends

16:01

up coming out of a route of

16:03

people either

16:05

not believing that they're

16:07

loved or not believing that they can be loved,

16:09

and so therefore they are trying to receive

16:12

it either from a person or from

16:14

God himself. And they're trying to do things,

16:16

and that leads them to all kinds of toxic

16:18

stuff. So it all comes down to this route

16:21

of knowing God's love. And

16:23

you know that you rest in that.

16:26

And as Hebrews said, there's a work there

16:28

to be able to do that. It it

16:30

takes a real renewing of the mind to be

16:32

able to do that, because, as we said, the

16:34

world programs us that we

16:37

get things. Oppositely,

16:40

so there is an effort

16:42

there to remember that it all comes down to

16:44

love. But when you can get that, I'm telling you

16:47

the bad moods, the bad attitudes, the bad

16:49

habits, the the addictions, they all

16:51

begin to fade because you

16:53

found your fulfillment.

16:54

Absolutely. The rocks come out of your backpack.

16:56

You're not bent over anymore. It's just that weight.

16:59

You know, you talk about the world. Sometimes the world starts

17:01

when you're a child and you've got a parent that basically

17:03

you think you can earn dad's approval by

17:05

performance. If you do that, then you'll get

17:08

an affirmation. So if you have to do that, and I

17:10

know very often there's that transference of whatever the

17:12

dynamic is with your earthly father somehow

17:14

becomes a transference to our heavenly father. But

17:16

the wonderful thing about our Heavenly Father is a he's

17:18

perfect. I love my dad, but he was not

17:20

perfect. No dad out there is perfect. But

17:22

if you think you can only earn the affections

17:25

of your earthly father by performance,

17:27

you end up transferring that. And there's

17:29

the difference. It's a grace difference.

17:31

And boy, I'm glad we've got more time, because,

17:33

Kyle, I want to talk about that. What

17:35

do we need to know about God's character

17:38

for us to be able to take these rocks out

17:40

of our backpack? Let me leave that question posed

17:42

right there, and we'll take it up when we return

17:44

the book. Fabulous for anyone. And

17:46

my guess is most people struggle with this.

17:49

This is really about your being given

17:51

permission to be imperfect.

17:53

And when you really understand and embrace

17:55

and live in the grace that's available to us,

17:58

just like Kyle said, you'll learn to

18:00

strive less, stress less, and

18:02

sinless back after this. Permission

18:13

to be Imperfect, Kyle Winkler's

18:15

brand new book. And he is a wonderful

18:17

writer, by the way, part of his journey. But

18:19

this is something that he's learned in his

18:21

years listening to people through ministry

18:24

about how many people struggle with this idea

18:26

of doing, rather than being

18:29

the fancy 50 cent word if he wanted his

18:31

ontological being. In other words, just God

18:33

loves you, period. So often we want

18:35

to put a comma there, and in that comma

18:38

you open up a panoply of issues exhaustion,

18:40

stress. You're actually sinning more because

18:43

you don't fully understand the concept of grace.

18:45

And that's why this book, I think, is so important

18:47

for so many people. Kyle, again,

18:49

is a Bible teacher, but he's also the creator

18:51

of Shut Up Devil, which is a mobile app,

18:53

and it's a very popular, one of the most popular

18:55

Christian apps out there. So I love

18:57

the chapter called Get a New God and

18:59

you're not advancing the idea of

19:01

signing up for the Club of Odin or Zeus

19:04

or anything like that. What you're saying is

19:06

your understanding of God is flawed,

19:08

and when that happens, you really

19:10

fail to grasp the whole concept of

19:12

grace. And I find this

19:14

to be amazing. Let me just offer a couple of caveats.

19:16

First of all, I've often said to the Lord

19:19

because I, I really,

19:21

wonderfully, quickly embrace his

19:23

everlasting love. Ask me if I understand it.

19:25

How does my Mickey Mouse mortal mind

19:28

possibly comprehend unconditional

19:30

love, when anything I've ever known and anything

19:32

I've ever done is conditional loving?

19:35

It's the same thing with grace. We sing

19:37

it, we watch movies about it, we read books about

19:39

it. But do we really understand the concept

19:42

of grace and I? And let me zero in on

19:44

this right now so we can slay the bramble

19:46

bushes that are starting to grow up around some people thinking

19:48

the problem is that you if you

19:50

fully embrace God's grace,

19:53

somehow people think that that is the

19:55

equivalent. And linear thinking can be dangerous,

19:57

but they think it's the equivalent of

19:59

somehow creating a law of license.

20:03

That's not the same. I mean, Paul talks

20:05

about this, the law of liberty, like you have a

20:07

limitless Mastercard of sin because now

20:09

your saves, you can do anything. So you people keep promoting

20:11

the idea of grace. Well, that's cheap grace.

20:13

That's sloppy grace. That's not what we're talking about.

20:15

So can you pull over to the side of the road

20:18

for a minute and just talk to me about Grace, and why

20:20

this conversation does not

20:22

open up the pothole

20:24

of saying that somehow you're now going to be

20:26

filled with the the law of liberty, and

20:28

you can sin. Because after all, I've got Grace. Talk

20:30

to me about that.

20:31

Oh, Janet, thank you for bringing that up, because I

20:33

bet I get that every single day. I think

20:35

I opened up YouTube this morning to hear people

20:38

say, this is just a license to sin,

20:40

right? And that's not at all what we're talking about.

20:42

First of all, I say nobody needs a license to

20:44

send their sinning just fine without a license. So

20:47

there's there's no no license needed

20:49

there. But a

20:51

lot of people, when they think about

20:54

grace, they think about it strictly

20:56

as forgiveness. And of course, that

20:58

is a big part of it because we're getting

21:00

something we didn't deserve. That

21:02

is a big part of grace. But as I

21:04

say in the book, I go through great

21:07

lengths to say that actually

21:09

you do better spiritually and biologically

21:12

when you're not under pressure. And I go through

21:14

all the science and the neuroscience and everything in the

21:16

first couple chapters of the book to show

21:18

why our bodies shut down under

21:20

pressure. So the more you think is

21:22

on the line, whether that's from another person

21:25

or whether that's from God, the worse

21:27

you're going to do so forgiveness, knowing that you're

21:29

forgiven does not

21:31

make you do worse. It

21:33

actually makes you do better. Apostle

21:35

Peter even said something. He said, you're

21:38

not growing in godliness because you've forgotten

21:40

your cleansing. Again, it goes

21:42

down to remember that you're forgiven.

21:44

Remember that you are

21:47

already clean. But the other part of grace.

21:51

And I think this is more than half of

21:53

it, is that

21:55

it's your wholeness. It's a new nature.

21:58

It's it's as Colossians 210

22:00

says, that you have been made complete

22:03

by your union with Christ. It's

22:05

that you are no longer a sinner, but you are

22:07

made a saint. The Bible says that you were given

22:09

a new heart. It says you were given a new

22:11

mind. It says you were made obedient

22:13

from the heart. Even you have new wants and

22:16

new desires. So a

22:18

Christian. I've

22:20

not found a Christian yet, at least that

22:22

wants to sin. In all of

22:25

the prayer requests I have gotten and

22:28

and people that have called in to radio

22:30

shows and I've talked to after speaking engagements,

22:32

they're all asking me, how can I stop this?

22:34

I don't want to do this anymore. And I

22:36

say, well, that's that's evidence of

22:38

your new nature. First of all, because you have a

22:40

new heart, you don't desire to sin. Now,

22:43

are we going to sin? Yes, because

22:45

we have minds that need constant renewing. We live

22:47

in flesh. We're not going to be perfect. That's

22:49

why Jesus came. But

22:51

we don't want to do it anymore.

22:53

And that's as much a part of grace, our new

22:56

nature as it is our forgiveness.

22:58

And so when you lean into that new nature

23:01

and, and you know that

23:03

new nature, you're going to start

23:05

to do better, more

23:08

automatically than you

23:10

ever will by trying

23:12

to do it. And therein,

23:14

I think, is is the power of grace. There

23:16

is that your new nature starts

23:18

to take over.

23:20

Yeah. So let me talk about the new nature,

23:22

because this is the flip for me,

23:24

and I'm wondering if it was for you too, is

23:26

that if our propensity is to check

23:29

the boxes and do the rules and

23:31

think that as long as, you know, we're turning

23:33

in early with 15 extra credit points,

23:35

therefore God will love us more, right? And

23:37

and I think that's for so many of us.

23:39

But the reality is, when you begin to

23:42

try to grasp all of his

23:44

amazing grace, now

23:46

I want to be conformed and transformed

23:48

out of obedience. I want to be conformed to transformed

23:51

out of love. You know when you read a verse

23:53

like the beauty of

23:55

a quiet and gentle spirit is

23:57

very precious in the sight of God.

23:59

Came across that verse the other day. I bet I

24:01

quote it 20 times a day. Now I

24:04

I'm in a position where I can give something

24:06

to God that's very precious

24:08

in his sight. Now that took my

24:10

breath away, and I didn't do it because it

24:12

was a to do list. I did it because I loved him.

24:14

And if the beauty of a quiet and gentle

24:17

spirit is something that he loves and he

24:19

deems it to be precious old, bring it

24:21

on. I want to deliver something to my father

24:23

that is beautiful and precious in

24:25

his eyes. That's grace. Not because

24:27

I have to, but because I want to.

24:29

We've got a half an hour more to go, and I'm glad because

24:31

I feel like I've just barely scratched the surface. Why?

24:34

Because I think this topic for a lot of people is

24:36

like Marley's chain, right? In A Christmas

24:38

Carol, we make this chain of

24:40

works and stress yard

24:42

by yard and inch by inch, the

24:44

key to get that chain off of our ankles

24:47

and out of our backpack. Grace,

24:50

it's exactly the point that Kyle is making in his new

24:52

book, Permission to Be Imperfect

24:54

How to Strive Less

24:56

Stress, Less Sinless back

24:58

after this. With

25:11

so many stations, channels, websites

25:13

and newspapers to choose from, sometimes it's hard

25:15

to uncover the truth. In today's world. So

25:17

many voices clamoring for our attention.

25:20

And in the market we bring biblical truth

25:22

into the marketplace of ideas, equipping you

25:24

to become a bold voice of truth in this confused

25:26

and chaotic culture. Become a partial partner

25:28

today. Call 8778

25:30

58 or go online to

25:33

in the market with Janet partial.org.

25:38

We are having a great conversation. If you're just

25:40

joining us, the warmest of welcomes. And thank

25:42

you, Lord, for technology, because if you missed the

25:44

first half of this conversation, you didn't

25:46

because you can go to in the market with Janet partial.org

25:50

left hand side, you're going to see a bunch of words. Look for

25:52

these two past programs. Clicking

25:54

on you can download this hour in

25:56

its entirety, or either the two hours we

25:58

do every day going back a full year.

26:00

That's our library of sound, so check it out.

26:02

That way you won't have missed anything. But if you are

26:04

just joining us, let me reintroduce our guest for you.

26:07

Kyle Winkler is with us. It's good to have him back on the

26:09

program. He's a practical Bible teacher. Equips

26:11

people to live in victory. He's

26:13

the founder of the app Shut Up.

26:15

Devil also wrote a book, by the way. By that title,

26:17

it still ranks to this day is a top

26:19

Christian app. He is a sought after

26:22

speaker. He's a frequent guest on Christian media,

26:24

as evidenced by his being here and

26:26

an author as well. And his

26:28

book that we're discussing is brand new. It's called Permission

26:30

to Be Imperfect How to Strive

26:32

Less, Stress Less and Sinless.

26:35

And by the way, this is a profoundly

26:37

deep theological issue. But

26:39

it's not so profound that it's not graspable.

26:42

God is not far off by any stretch of the imagination,

26:44

and so our answers are found

26:47

in His word, and his character is

26:49

likewise revealed in his word,

26:51

which takes me full circle, Kyle, to where I

26:53

was before. What? What

26:55

do we not know about God that messes

26:57

up our thinking about the grace that's been

26:59

given to us?

27:02

Oh, so many people. They they

27:04

think probably, I don't know, 75%

27:07

of our thinking about God is based on 75%

27:09

of the Bible, which is really the Old Testament.

27:11

And let's be honest, that

27:14

a lot of what we read in the Old Testament

27:16

doesn't make God look all that favorable.

27:19

In that chapter that we talked about get

27:21

a new God, which is really about getting a new perspective

27:23

of God, I, I talk

27:25

about the story of this. This

27:28

article I read online by an atheist,

27:30

somebody who left the church I believe in.

27:33

He he wrote this title something

27:35

like I propose we give up God. And

27:37

I thought, oh, this will be interesting. Let's see what he has to say.

27:39

And he used all of these Old Testament

27:41

examples to show

27:44

why God is a bully and he's mean and he's

27:46

horrible, and all these various colorful

27:48

words. And I said, he doesn't need

27:50

to give up God. He needs to get a new God, which

27:52

is to get a new perspective of him, because

27:54

the New Testament shows us who God

27:56

really is. See, a lot of Christians,

27:59

as I said, they base

28:01

who God is based on Old

28:04

Testament verses. And so they come away with this

28:06

idea, like this guy who wrote the article

28:08

did that. Maybe at best,

28:11

if God isn't completely mean like he thought,

28:13

at least Christians might think, maybe he's at

28:15

best half love half.

28:17

I got to be afraid of him because he's going to get

28:20

me in in some way.

28:22

But the New Testament says that

28:24

what we see in the Old Testament was just a

28:26

shadow. It was just

28:28

seeing God through a veil,

28:30

the way he's described the stories we hear

28:32

there. Of course, some of it is God

28:35

dealing with sin and swift ways because

28:37

Jesus wasn't here yet to deal with sin.

28:39

But some of it is also God

28:42

being described by people that didn't

28:44

have the full picture. I think of

28:46

Jobe, for example. We know from

28:48

scripture that the enemy was

28:50

the one taking everything away from Jobe.

28:52

But what a jobe declare that

28:55

God gives and God takes away. See,

28:57

he saw God as responsible

28:59

for it all. So we see things like

29:01

that in the Old Testament because again,

29:03

they didn't have the full picture. But

29:06

now we do. The Apostle Paul

29:08

said that Jesus is

29:10

the invisible image

29:12

of the father in in the flesh.

29:15

Jesus said, if you have seen me, you've seen

29:17

the father. And then John

29:19

said, here's what he looks like. Jesus

29:22

was God at creation,

29:24

one and the same in John chapter

29:26

one. Then by verse 14 he

29:29

says, when he came to

29:31

earth and made his home among us, he

29:33

was full of unfailing love

29:35

and faithfulness. See, that

29:37

is the image. Now that is the full

29:40

picture of who God is.

29:42

Thanks to what Jesus did on the cross, he

29:44

has 100% unfailing love.

29:46

The Greek word there is keris. It means pure

29:49

grace. So we don't have to be afraid anymore

29:52

of him zapping us dead for our

29:54

every sin. We don't have to be afraid or looking

29:56

over our back. Or like I used to grow up hearing

29:58

from my school teachers and even some

30:01

of my family, watch out or God's going to get you back.

30:03

No, no no no. God dealt

30:05

with the sin issue on the cross with Jesus.

30:07

Now we get to live in

30:09

his love and be empowered by

30:11

his grace.

30:12

Wow. Well, so that's what you mean

30:14

when you write in the book about the fact that

30:16

we're not meant to live for God's

30:19

pleasure, but in and from

30:21

his pleasure? Now that's a radical, a

30:23

radically rewiring of the brain

30:26

in terms of our thinking about this. So

30:28

explain what do you mean, in and from

30:30

God's pleasure?

30:32

Yeah.

30:32

So just as Paul said, that rewiring of the

30:34

brain, that's the renewal of the mind. That's why there's

30:37

it sometimes takes a real

30:39

reprogramming, because we've lived lifetimes

30:42

of believing that we have to earn

30:44

things from God, as we were talking about in the first

30:47

part of, of the program. But

30:49

because of Jesus, we

30:51

now get to live in the

30:53

knowing that we are in God's delight.

30:55

In the book, I take people through the creation story

30:58

to illustrate this, and there are

31:00

several clues about where

31:02

God wanted us. I always say you can

31:04

know God's perfect will by looking at

31:06

how the world was before sin, before humans

31:08

messed it up. And you see, that

31:11

first clue is humans

31:13

were made on day six, which

31:15

is after all the work was done, so God didn't need

31:17

our help to do anything. Then

31:19

next day, day seven, he established

31:22

as a day of rest. But unlike all the other days

31:24

which were ended buttoned up

31:26

with the ending. Evening

31:29

or morning came and evening followed. Then

31:33

the next clue is that.

31:36

He put us in Eden. So

31:39

we were made after all the work was done.

31:41

We were. Then

31:44

living in the rest of God, which is meant to

31:46

be an eternal Sabbath. And then

31:48

Eden. We were placed in the Garden

31:50

of Eden, which in Hebrew means delight.

31:52

We were meant to live in God's delight.

31:54

That's where humans were created to live. That's

31:57

a place where there was no earning.

31:59

Everything was just given to them

32:02

out of relationship with God, out of his blessing,

32:04

out of his grace. Of course,

32:06

because of sin, we got separated

32:09

from that. But the beauty of salvation is

32:11

Jesus did everything necessary to

32:13

end the separation was sin to

32:16

reconcile us back to the father, so that now

32:18

we get to live back in the delight of

32:20

God. So there's no more working

32:22

for God. He's not this schizophrenic

32:24

taskmaster that we have

32:26

to make sure that we are. We

32:29

are collecting enough good works to keep him

32:31

happy. But no, because of Jesus,

32:33

because of our faith in him. The Bible

32:36

says we are already pleasing

32:38

to him. So now we get to live from knowing

32:40

that we have his pleasure, not earning

32:42

it. Hmm.

32:43

Wow. So and

32:46

you address this in the book, but let me ask it here.

32:48

So what does it mean to be a good

32:50

Christian then?

32:54

I think that it means that you know,

32:56

that the work was done. A lot of people

32:58

think to be a good Christian means that you're

33:00

doing all kinds of disciplines, and you're reading your Bible

33:02

enough. And the big one these days, as you're spending enough

33:05

time with God, which is creating a whole lot

33:07

of guilt and shame in people, and it's not

33:09

helping them any. To.

33:11

To be a good Christian is to know that God has

33:13

made you good. If you look at Romans

33:15

chapter three, go through verses

33:17

22, through about verses 30,

33:19

and Paul says a handful of times

33:22

that because of your belief and that's it,

33:24

not because of your doing, not because of your

33:26

anything, but because of your belief

33:29

in Jesus, God has made you

33:31

right. He's made you good. So

33:33

I say, you can now say, Because of Jesus, God

33:35

is good, and I am good with God. That's

33:37

a good Christian.

33:39

Mhm. Oh I like that.

33:41

So as you look at this idea and in

33:43

fact I was thinking when I read the book that this is

33:45

a natural extension from your book shut

33:47

Up devil, because the confusion

33:49

that the accuser is

33:51

constantly whispering in her ear, if it's performance

33:54

based relationship with God and

33:56

he's going to remind you on a regular basis, you know that's

33:58

not enough, you better do some more. You better do some more.

34:00

So when he comes and starts

34:02

whispering those lies in our ear, because

34:05

the Bible tells me that there is no condemnation

34:07

towards me now that I'm in Jesus Christ.

34:10

So that voice is not coming from him.

34:12

When the devil is there, I want

34:14

to do what you taught me to do in your first book, which

34:16

is basically tell him to shut up like you said,

34:18

and I don't need an app to do it. I'm just going to say

34:20

it, but what are some verses that I can

34:22

say that can quiet the accuser?

34:25

Because I think it absolutely

34:27

is paramount. First of all, I know it pleases

34:29

my father when I know his love letters enough to put

34:31

them in context and to speak them against

34:33

the enemy. But what are some verses I should turn

34:36

to then, to make the devil's accusing voice

34:38

be silenced in my head?

34:40

Good point. Because the devil as the accuser,

34:42

as the slanderer, that's what his name means. Slander.

34:44

He's out to question your reputation,

34:46

which is in Christ. He's out to make you think

34:49

that you are not good enough. You've got to do

34:51

more, and it gets you back into that cycle

34:53

of works and shame and works and shame

34:55

and around and around it goes. So you've got to remember

34:57

truths about what God says

35:00

about your righteousness. Most of all, I

35:02

think second Corinthians 521

35:04

is one of my favorites. It explains

35:06

the two transactions of the cross of

35:08

Grace. He who knew no sin took

35:10

on my sin. That's forgiveness, so

35:12

that in him we would be made the righteousness

35:14

of God in Christ. That's your new nature. So

35:16

you remind that devil you can say, shut

35:19

up, devil, I am made new, I am made

35:21

right, I am made whole, I am made holy,

35:23

and that made whole is another great one. Colossians

35:25

210 I mentioned it earlier that because

35:28

of my union with Christ, I am complete.

35:30

I'm lacking nothing. I'm good

35:32

enough. Actually, I'm made more than good enough.

35:34

There's nothing about the real me

35:36

that needs to be fixed anymore because

35:39

Christ has done it. Romans 322

35:41

as I said earlier, because of Jesus,

35:44

I am made right and

35:46

I love first Corinthians 611.

35:49

But I am washed, I am justified,

35:52

I am sanctified by calling

35:54

on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. That's a trinity

35:56

of cleansing that happened

35:58

all because you put your faith,

36:01

your dependency, your trust in

36:03

Jesus. He did the work. You

36:05

are God's handiwork. You're not

36:07

your own.

36:09

Wow. So comforting

36:11

and it just takes so much of the burden off our

36:13

back. That's why this book, I think, is so very

36:15

important. Again, it's entitled Permission

36:17

to Be Imperfect How to Strive

36:20

less, stress less, and sin

36:22

less. I want to go to the third

36:24

part of the subtitle when we come back. Kyle, how

36:26

does understanding God's grace

36:29

and understanding that we live

36:31

in and from his pleasure? How

36:33

does that have a result of

36:35

sinning less? I think some people might

36:37

not be making that connection. And if you

36:39

understand, this is really the best

36:42

outcome of understanding this. Who who

36:44

among us, if we love Jesus, doesn't want to

36:46

sin less. Sometimes the rule making

36:48

and the rule setting just opens the door

36:50

for us to do more, not less, sinning. So

36:52

what's the connection here? How Winkler will tell us

36:55

it's all part of his brand new book, Permission to Be

36:57

Imperfect? Check it out on my website.

36:59

It's right there at In the Market with Janet. partial.org.

37:08

Permission to be Imperfect, brand new book

37:10

by Kyle Winkler. Really

37:12

and truly, it's helping us understand what

37:14

really being in God's grace is

37:17

all about. So I want to pick up exactly where

37:19

I started as we went to break

37:21

the corollary, this connection between

37:23

sinning less and really embracing

37:26

God's grace. People might not

37:28

be able to see why that is the end

37:30

result. That's the outcome of really

37:32

and truly understanding this. So in

37:34

fact, again, it goes to the antithesis of what we said

37:37

before. If you think that

37:39

somehow just living, it's

37:41

grace, yes, I get that. But

37:43

I don't have the grace to sin without

37:46

ceasing. So, so

37:48

the antithesis of that is you

37:50

really understand grace and you really end up

37:52

sinning less. How does that work? Because

37:54

it's it's counterintuitive to what we think

37:57

will happen.

37:58

It is it takes such a a paradigm

38:00

shift because most of us, we

38:02

we think that the way to sin less is we've

38:04

got to uphold all

38:07

of these. Don't taste, don't

38:09

touch, don't you know a bunch of bunch of

38:11

rules, whether that's the Ten Commandments or the other

38:13

603 Laws of Moses or some self-help

38:15

principle, whatever

38:18

is a thou shalt not, it is

38:20

a it is a kind of law. And

38:22

the Apostle Paul said in First Corinthians

38:24

1556 that it's actually a law

38:27

that empower sin. See, we we thought

38:29

and I thought for many years that it was the law that kept

38:31

me from sinning, when in truth, as

38:33

Paul even says in Romans seven. Chapter

38:36

seven, where you know the famous verse

38:38

where he says, I do what I don't want to do,

38:40

I do what I hate. He was

38:42

living under that commandment thou shall

38:44

not covet. And that commandment put a

38:46

put a pressure on him that actually

38:48

only caused him to sin all

38:51

the more. See, law was supposed

38:53

to wear us out so that we

38:55

see our need for a savior. So

38:57

anytime we live by I can't,

38:59

I must not or and I have

39:01

to. We're living under law, and it's

39:03

going to prove what law was intended to prove.

39:06

Every time it's going to wear you out, burn

39:08

you out is going to make you worse, not

39:10

better. A lot of other

39:12

people, then they they live with

39:15

this sense of guilt as well, that they think that

39:17

the the worse I feel about myself, that

39:19

I'm this horrible sinner, I might as well go eat

39:21

worms, that that's going

39:23

to somehow make them better as well. And

39:25

it actually has the opposite effect. The book of

39:27

Hebrews says that Israel and

39:29

all of their sin consciousness, all it led them

39:31

to do with sacrifice, that sacrifice that led

39:33

them to feel more guilty, which led them to feel more

39:35

sin conscious, which led them to more sacrifice.

39:37

It didn't work. So the the

39:40

two things the law, keeping the rule, keeping

39:42

the feeling guilty, it doesn't work. So what does

39:44

work? Grace.

39:46

Grace is what works because it removes the pressure

39:48

of us. It tells us that we don't serve a

39:50

God who is out to get us, but we serve a God who

39:53

loves us, who when we fall, he's

39:55

going to pick us up, and he's going to show us the

39:57

better way, and he's not going to scold us

39:59

for it. And so that's going to naturally

40:01

make us do better.

40:03

And there's a. A

40:06

story that. Or

40:09

a lesson, rather that I learned my first

40:11

time snow skiing, which I think makes a good

40:13

lesson on this. And that was

40:15

at 16 years old, wanting

40:18

to go down these big slopes. And

40:20

the instructor says, okay, when you

40:23

do, make sure that you're not focused

40:25

on the trees and the light poles,

40:27

but focus on the way in front of you,

40:29

focus on where you want to go. And when somebody

40:32

said, why, he said, because you're going to hit

40:34

what you focus on. And

40:36

it's the same thing in Christianity. If you're focusing

40:38

on all the don'ts, you're focusing on what you shouldn't

40:41

do. The pressure

40:43

of living under that is going to wear

40:45

your body down to where you end up hitting those.

40:47

But your mind's going to be so focused on those

40:49

that you end up hitting them to. So

40:52

instead, focus on the way of grace that's

40:54

in front of you. Focus on God's unlimited

40:56

love, and it's

40:59

going to empower you in a way where

41:01

you do better without trying to

41:03

do better. You start to live then out of

41:05

your new nature, which is made

41:07

right, made whole, made wholly.

41:10

And you don't have to strive then for holiness.

41:13

You just become it more automatically.

41:15

Mhm.

41:16

Mhm.

41:16

Boy if you don't take anything away from this

41:18

conversation, take away that instructor

41:21

from the seed teacher because that is

41:23

such a great point. So

41:25

let me talk in full transparency that

41:27

I bet the majority of people who struggle

41:29

in this area are saying that's what I

41:31

want. They've either said it out loud or they've said it with

41:33

their inside voice, inside their own heart.

41:36

And what happens in journeys like this is you have

41:38

periods of time, and I bet in your journey it was the same

41:40

as well, Kyle, where you move forward

41:42

and then all of a sudden you find yourself defaulting

41:44

back to old habits again. When

41:47

that happens, what do we do?

41:51

This is the renewal of the mind. This is what Paul's

41:53

talking about. Break from that pattern of the world. Break

41:55

from the the the pattern that you

41:57

knew and remember. Remember

41:59

that God loves you. I think of

42:01

the Apostle Paul's advice. It's his prayer for

42:03

spiritual growth in Ephesians three,

42:06

verses 17 through 19. He

42:08

doesn't give us more to do. He doesn't say discipline

42:10

yourself more. He says,

42:13

grasp as much as humanly possible.

42:15

And I remember, Janet, you said at the beginning of the show

42:17

how our finite minds cannot

42:20

possibly grasp it, but as much as humanly

42:22

possible grasp how he died

42:24

and how, why, and how deep

42:26

is God's love? And then Paul says, here's

42:28

what's going to happen when you know that

42:30

you're going to be strengthened

42:34

with all the power and the fullness

42:36

that comes from God. So when you fall,

42:38

rather than beat yourself up, pick

42:40

yourself back up with

42:43

God loves me. The enemy is going

42:45

to tell you you're not worthy of it. That's

42:47

where you got to shut him up. Don't

42:49

listen to your feelings. God's word is more real than what

42:51

you feel. Just keep saying it until

42:54

you believe it, until that mind is renewed

42:56

and you start living like it. God loves me.

42:58

God loves me. God loves me.

43:00

Now.

43:01

And again, experientially. Because

43:03

what we think is what we believe, it's how we

43:05

behave. There's that synergy between all of these things.

43:08

So if you were raised in a household where you didn't

43:10

hear very often that you were loved, where you were raised

43:12

in a household where everything was performance

43:15

predicated, you got an A-minus and your report

43:17

card, and some parent says to you, while I expect an

43:19

A or an A+, and so you just can't

43:21

quite do enough. Sometimes

43:24

it causes this separation to say,

43:26

these are mere mortals. All have sinned and come

43:28

short of the glory of God. There's not one righteous, not

43:31

a one of us. So just

43:33

saying, Lord, I know that

43:35

you love me. And then I think of the man who said, I believe

43:37

helped me in my unbelief, even if you can't fully

43:39

comprehend. Do you not think

43:41

our father takes pleasure in hearing us say, I

43:43

so want that, but I don't understand that.

43:45

Help me to better understand it. Is that not

43:47

a prayer? He would answer?

43:50

That's absolutely. That's how good our

43:52

God is. Yes, yes.

43:54

Wow, Kyle, I tell you, I just loved this

43:57

book because I think more people than

43:59

perhaps they even realize struggle in this particular

44:01

area. And like you say, it opens the door to

44:03

legalism and opens the door to discouragement.

44:05

It's why so many people, quote, deconstruct because

44:07

they can't keep up with the rulemaking.

44:09

And by the way, Carl does a great job of folding

44:12

in the science about how our brain works. This way, when

44:14

you have rules and how you actually shut down

44:16

and get discouraged, and you move exactly the opposite

44:18

direction of where you want to go, it is a wonderful

44:20

book. How has this great way and you saw that evidence,

44:23

by the way, in which he spoke with us this hour.

44:25

Crystal clear precept teaching,

44:28

no ambiguity with grace

44:30

and mercy as he teaches us. So get the book. It's

44:32

called Permission to Be Imperfect

44:34

How to Strive less, stress

44:36

Less and Sinless. And if you want

44:38

information on the book, Easy Peasy in

44:40

the market with Janet partial org.

44:42

After the description of the two hours of radio

44:45

underneath, it says program

44:47

details and audio. It's white words in a red

44:49

box. Click it on takes you to the information

44:51

page. There's a picture of Kyle, a Bible, and right

44:53

to his right there is the book underneath

44:56

a website. If you want to learn more about Kyle and his

44:58

great ministry. Thank you Kyle. Thank you friends.

45:00

We'll see you next time on In the Market with Janet.

45:02

Partial.

45:04

Retractable claws up to 1.5in

45:07

long. Capable

45:09

of jumping 36ft. A

45:12

roar that can be heard five miles away.

45:16

The lion, King of the beasts.

45:18

Picture yourself surrounded by several,

45:21

like Daniel. He determined

45:23

to pray, though he knew he

45:25

would pay. Are we willing to face

45:27

the lions of our culture? Be

45:29

a Daniel. A challenge for Moody

45:32

Radio.

45:35

How long have you been a part of the Moody Radio family?

45:37

Well, I've been listening to Moody since 1993,

45:40

and, I mean, I get

45:42

up with Moody. I want to be moody, and it just

45:44

has been a blessing in my life for all these

45:46

years. The teaching in the

45:48

worship and moody perception

45:51

that is really rooted in the

45:53

Word of God in the series about

45:55

who is God.

45:56

Serious about God? That's us.

45:58

And we're seriously grateful for listeners

46:01

like you.