0:00

Hello friend. Thank you so much for downloading this

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broadcast, and it is my sincere hope

0:04

that you will hear something that will encourage, equip,

0:06

edify, enlighten and then get you out

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there in the marketplace of ideas. But before you go

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and start listening to the broadcast, let me

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take one moment and introduce you to this month's Truth

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Tool. It's a book called misled,

0:17

and I chose this book because when you start listening

0:19

to some of the things that are being taught from the front

0:21

of the church today, it's disconcerting.

0:24

Legalism, overemphasis on prosperity,

0:26

a warped sense of grace, harmful

0:29

ideas that will turn people off from

0:31

the gospel and lead them away. That's

0:33

why I've chosen the book misled.

0:35

The purpose of this book is to help you learn

0:37

how to identify false teachings, while

0:39

at the same time finding joy in the gospel.

0:42

With all its power and its simplicity.

0:44

We're listener supported radio. These truth

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tools are my way of not only helping you grow up

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in him, but they help our program as well financially.

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So simply call 877 Janet

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58 877 Janet

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58. Give a gift of any amount and I'll send

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you as a way of saying thank you. A copy of the

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book misled. You might also want

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scolded the bottom of the page. There's the cover

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of the book misled. Click it on make

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your donation. Take you less than two minutes and

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I'll send it right off to you again as my way of saying

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thank you. While you're on that website, linger for

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just a moment longer. Just below misled

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Those are people who give every single month at

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partial partners, as well as an audio piece just

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for those who are partial partners. So if

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you want to support this program on a monthly basis,

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again, you choose the level. My way of saying

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thank you is sending you a copy of each and every

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month's truth tool and a weekly copy

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of our newsletter. So in the market with

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Janet parshall.org, scroll to the bottom

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of the page or call 877

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Janet 58 877

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Janet 58. Again this month's truth

1:57

tool misled to help you better

1:59

contend for the faith. And now please enjoy

2:01

the broadcast.

2:02

Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.

2:04

The conference was over. The president won a pledge.

2:06

Americans worshiping government over God.

2:09

Extremely rare safety move by

2:11

a male 17 years.

2:12

The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.

2:14

The idea is.

2:16

Not.

2:29

Hi friends. Welcome to In the Market with

2:32

Janet Parshall. Thrilled. We're going to spend the hour

2:34

together. Okay. Get ready to put on that thinking

2:36

cap your mom and dad talked about is

2:38

this hours conversation is designed to help you

2:40

think critically and biblically. Oh

2:43

yeah. Note to file that's not

2:45

a multiple choice test. It's not an either

2:47

or. It is a both end.

2:49

And that cacophony that you just

2:51

heard, the way we open our program each and every

2:53

day, it's emblematic of the marketplace of

2:55

ideas. And quite honestly, it's a mess out there.

2:58

And yet that is exactly where you and I are

3:00

called to go. So when we

3:02

go out there, remember that our calling

3:05

is to influence and occupy, to let

3:07

our light so shine and not to make

3:09

men converts of our opinions,

3:11

rather that they become converts

3:13

to Jesus Christ. Now that becomes dicey

3:16

when you're out there and you're talking about

3:18

sincerely held beliefs. If I can use a legal

3:20

phrase, and all of a sudden the back and forth

3:22

gets a little testy and the temperature goes

3:24

up and your bridge burned, you

3:27

haven't done anything to be an ambassador

3:29

for Christ. Oh, have you checked your curriculum vitae

3:31

lately? Yeah, that's one of your descriptors.

3:33

If you have confessed with your mouth that Jesus

3:35

is Lord and believed in your heart that God has raised

3:37

him from the dead, you and I are ambassadors for

3:39

Christ. I've said it before, I'll say it again.

3:41

Let me paint you a word picture here in my town of Washington

3:44

DC. Ambassador row is pretty impressive.

3:46

Gorgeous building, stately buildings,

3:48

and outside each of the buildings hangs the

3:50

flag of that nation. And guess what? That ambassador's

3:53

job is to influence our

3:55

government with the values and principles

3:57

and ideas that are held sincerely

4:00

by the government of that

4:02

nation the ambassador represents.

4:04

Guess what? That's our descriptor. Two

4:06

we are to represent as an ambassador

4:09

the values, the principles and the precepts

4:11

of the King who sent us out there. Is

4:13

it going to be easy? Nope. And here's

4:15

our our mandate for behavior. Real easy.

4:17

Just check it out. Well, it's not

4:19

real easy. It's extraordinarily difficult. But the directive

4:22

is straight and clear. It's to speak

4:24

the truth in love. Again, not a multiple

4:26

choice test, not an either or, but a both end.

4:28

So how in the world do we do that?

4:30

And that's important, because how we approach

4:32

people when we're talking about important ideas

4:34

can be the beginning or the end of the conversation.

4:37

Because in the end, if

4:39

we work under the banner that says he's not

4:41

willing that any should perish, how do we stand

4:43

firm and fast to what we know to be true

4:46

without incinerating the person to whom we're speaking,

4:48

sort of belies the mission, does it not?

4:51

That's one of the reasons why I'm pretty excited about our conversation

4:53

this hour. It all rotates around a

4:55

brand new book called Bridge Building a

4:58

Bridge Building apologetics, rather how to

5:00

get along even when we disagree.

5:02

So bridge building apologetics.

5:04

And our guest is Lindsay Mendenhall. She

5:06

is the director of Ministry operations at

5:08

Mama Bear Apologetics. Just love that.

5:11

Ministry serves as a consulting

5:13

editor for the Christian Research Journal, got

5:15

a master's in apologetics and ethics from

5:17

Denver Seminary. Picked up a law degree

5:19

along the way from Saint Mary's School of Law and

5:21

a master's degree in public administration

5:23

from Midwestern State University.

5:26

So her primary focus in the world of

5:28

apologetics, by the way, is on world

5:30

religions and how we talk to people

5:32

of other faiths. That's pretty exciting, and I

5:34

want to find out more about that. So, Lindsay,

5:36

first and foremost, thank you for what you're

5:38

about to give me and our listeners all across

5:40

the country. That's the gift of your time. I

5:42

can't replace it. You had a choice. You didn't have to

5:44

come here. You did. And on behalf of every

5:47

one of us, as we wait with great anticipation

5:49

to what you're going to teach us, I say, thank you so much.

5:51

Second, thank you for the work that you

5:53

do, and thank you for the clarity with which

5:55

you write and for reminding us through

5:58

this book. It isn't just about being able to give a

6:00

reason for the hope that resides within you,

6:02

but also understand that at the end of that

6:04

conversation resides a person who

6:06

bears that image of God. And so

6:08

my responsibility, our responsibility

6:11

is to make sure that we represent

6:13

Christ and not just make

6:16

them converts of whatever it is we're contending

6:18

for, but rather they see Christ in

6:20

us. And there are too few books like this. So

6:22

I want to thank you so much for writing them. So

6:24

you start out in the book and I'm glad you did, talking

6:26

about your interest in apologetics.

6:28

And you did it really because you wanted to have some

6:30

deeper conversation with your husband, which I think is really

6:33

cool. But all of a sudden you

6:35

had a tremendous teacher, a man

6:37

who's well known in the world of apologetics,

6:39

who told you to go and interview

6:41

a non-believer. Tell me what happened.

6:44

Hi, Janet, I'm just so glad to

6:46

spend the next hour with you. Uh,

6:48

it's an honor to be here. Um,

6:50

yeah. My professor in

6:52

seminary, the very first apologetics

6:55

class I took was with

6:57

Doctor Doug Wrotehis, who

6:59

he's written the actual literal

7:01

book called Christian Apologetics, and

7:04

it's about a thousand pages. And

7:06

he just came out with a new version of it, and

7:08

I highly recommend it. But I

7:10

also will tell you, it's a thousand pages of

7:13

in-depth material about

7:15

apologetics. And when I

7:17

entered that world, I honestly

7:19

did not know what I was getting myself into.

7:22

Like you just mentioned, I went to seminary

7:24

sort of as a way to

7:27

have great conversations with

7:29

my husband. Spend at home. He was already

7:31

involved in apologetics. He was interested

7:33

in that world of defending

7:36

the faith as rational

7:38

and true, just like we're called to do

7:40

in first Peter 315. And

7:42

when Doctor Grothus gave us

7:45

that assignment, I was struck

7:47

by this idea that I

7:49

didn't really know how I

7:51

should defend my faith. And

7:54

it was a moment of clarity

7:56

for me in that I needed to do

7:58

more so that I could

8:00

answer questions clearly

8:02

and confidently about

8:05

why I believe Christianity is true

8:07

and why Jesus is my Savior. And

8:09

if I can't do that, if I can't share the gospel,

8:12

what am I even doing as a Christ follower?

8:15

Yeah, unbelievable. And

8:17

that's so tremendously important. That

8:19

raises a whole series of questions for a lot of people.

8:21

So let me start first by asking you what the definition

8:24

of apologetics is.

8:26

Sure, apologetics comes from

8:28

the Greek word apologia,

8:30

which means to give a defense. The

8:32

easiest way I like to defend, like

8:34

to explain it, is if you

8:36

were to imagine a lawyer giving

8:38

a defense in a courtroom, right?

8:41

They present evidence. They sometimes

8:43

will call expert witnesses,

8:45

all so that they can present

8:47

their case and convince the judge

8:50

or jury to rule in their

8:52

favor. It's like that

8:54

in apologetics as apologists.

8:56

But I want to also tell people that

8:59

all people are apologists for

9:01

what they believe in already. So as

9:03

Christians, you're already an apologist

9:06

because what you're doing and

9:08

how you're living and the words that you're speaking

9:10

are giving a defense or not

9:13

for Christianity and what you believe.

9:16

And so I don't want people to be intimidated

9:18

by that.

9:18

Yes, yes. And in fact, let me pick it up exactly

9:21

at that point, by the way, as a hat tip to

9:23

Doctor Grotius, he's got a brand new book out called

9:25

Beyond the Wager The Christian

9:27

Brilliance of Blaise Pascal.

9:29

We've often talked on this program about Pascal's

9:31

Wager, and so he digs deeper into

9:34

this man and his worldview. So fascinating

9:36

reading. Anything Doctor Cortez writes is fabulous.

9:38

We're going to take a break, come right back, and continue

9:40

to learn what it means to practice

9:43

bridge building apologetics. Just

9:45

getting started. Great information coming your

9:47

way back after this. Teachers

9:56

who use half truths that sound biblical are harming

9:59

the church. So how does a believer identify these

10:01

misleading messages? That's why I've chosen

10:03

misled as this month's truth tool, discover

10:06

some of the most harmful ideas that can damage

10:08

your relationship with the Lord and lead you astray.

10:10

As for your copy of misled, when you give a gift

10:12

of any amount to in the market, call 877

10:15

Janet 58. That's 877 Janet

10:17

58 or go to in the market with Janet

10:19

parshall.org. We

10:23

get to spend the hour with Lindsey McDonald.

10:25

She's the author of Bridge Building Apologetics

10:28

How to Get Along Even When We

10:30

Disagree. She's the director of ministry operations

10:33

at Mama Bear Apologetics. In

10:35

fact, Lindsey, I'm going to pick up where we were talking

10:37

before about every believer is

10:39

an apologist, but I've had

10:41

the privilege of talking about mama bear apologetics

10:43

on this program before, and I just

10:45

love the ministry for people

10:48

who have no point of reference. Talk to me about

10:50

mama bear apologetics, what it is, what

10:52

it does, why it got started.

10:54

Sure. Mama bear apologetics

10:57

was born out of

10:59

a desire to reach moms

11:01

because, frankly, in

11:03

the world of apologetics, there weren't

11:05

any ministries that were targeting moms

11:08

in particular, and research

11:10

was showing that moms have

11:12

a huge impact

11:14

in the way that kids are influenced at

11:16

home, especially in the early years.

11:18

And so we wanted to make sure that there was a ministry

11:21

where moms could be equipped in

11:23

the arguments of apologetics

11:26

and so that they could equip their kids.

11:28

And that's kind of where

11:30

the idea of mama bear apologetics came from.

11:33

Hilary Morgan Ferrer has since

11:35

she started a podcast, and

11:38

we also have a blog, and

11:40

we have three books now available

11:43

for moms. And we also

11:45

have dads too. So I don't want people to think

11:47

that just because our name is Mama Bear apologetics

11:50

that men aren't allowed. We

11:52

we do have several Papa bears and

11:54

even grandparents who have

11:56

joined the ranks and really have

11:59

this strong desire to equip

12:01

themselves so that they can equip

12:03

the lives of the children around

12:05

them in whatever capacity that is.

12:07

Yeah. Amen. And particularly if we

12:09

can focus on kids now, they'll be better

12:11

able to contend as they grow up as well. So

12:13

may your tribe increase, and God bless the work

12:15

you do. It's so tremendously important. So

12:18

you you gave a working definition of

12:20

apologetics, and every single one of us is

12:22

an apologetic apologist rather.

12:24

And, you know, the Scripture reminds us of

12:27

that. It says, be prepared, some

12:29

of you, to give a reason for the hope that resides. No,

12:31

it doesn't say that. The directive is we're

12:33

supposed to know what we believe and why

12:35

we believe it. Hat tip to Doctor Paul Little in his

12:37

famous book by that name as well. A

12:39

lot of people don't know what they believe

12:42

or why they believe it. And then add to this mix

12:44

that directive from Ephesians that says, you

12:46

are to speak the truth and to do it in love.

12:48

And now we've got people saying, okay, well,

12:51

um, that's not my gift. Somebody else can do

12:53

that. I don't have to give a reason. So

12:55

I'll just step back, let me pick up with what

12:57

you said before, because the clarion call is to

12:59

every believer, whether it's

13:01

over a cup of tea, your kitchen table over

13:03

the back fence with your neighbor in the carpool

13:06

at the office, or in a college

13:08

classroom somewhere. Anytime

13:10

there's an opportunity to engage with the public,

13:12

we should be able to be ready to defend

13:15

what we believe. But to do it in a winsome fashion,

13:17

right or wrong.

13:19

Right. All of the

13:21

things you just said is exactly why I wrote

13:23

this book. Because I think

13:25

the giftedness idea,

13:27

oh, I don't have that gift, so I

13:30

shouldn't engage in those kinds of conversations.

13:33

It's just not true. It's not what the Bible says.

13:35

The Bible doesn't say only those

13:37

gifted in speaking should share

13:39

the gospel. Nope, nope.

13:41

You should always be prepared to

13:44

give a defense for the hope within you.

13:46

And that hope truly is the gospel message.

13:49

So I encourage people in

13:51

my book to learn how to state

13:53

the gospel message in 30s.

13:55

And if they can't do it, I

13:57

try to equip them so that they can do that throughout

13:59

the book and give them some ideas. You

14:01

don't need to have every

14:03

apologetic argument memorized

14:06

in order to share the gospel. You just

14:08

need to know that Jesus came

14:10

to earth fully God and fully human,

14:12

that he lived and taught.

14:15

Then he died and he

14:17

was physically resurrected three days

14:19

later. And then he ascended to heaven.

14:22

And then ten days after that, the

14:24

Holy Spirit came and indwelled the

14:26

believers. So I think if we can

14:28

believe that by grace we are

14:30

saved through the actions of Christ

14:32

and by his work alone,

14:35

then we are ready and

14:37

equipped to share the gospel to people

14:39

who might have questions.

14:40

Amen. And you just gave us an example

14:42

of how to do this in 30s. So

14:44

a couple of follow ups, because one of the things I'm big

14:47

into is pruning the weeds that grow up in

14:49

our garden. So a lot of people think

14:51

that you have to have, like you, a boatload of

14:53

initials after your name. If you don't, if

14:55

you didn't get your master's in apologetics.

14:57

And then add to that a law degree so you know how to be an

14:59

advocate, and then I know, pick up another master's

15:01

degree. Well, I'm frozen solid.

15:03

I don't think I'm going to be able

15:05

to do this because I don't know how to do this.

15:08

Slay the dragon that says

15:10

somehow, I mean, God bless you that

15:12

you have these marvelous degrees, and I'm sure that

15:14

you are particularly gifted in this area. But

15:16

for a mom listening right now who goes, look,

15:18

I'm trying to raise three kids and I get a part time

15:20

job. I don't know how to be an apologist.

15:22

How do we get rid of this idea that

15:24

somehow it's all about book learning, and that's the only

15:26

way we're going to be able to give a reason.

15:29

Yes, I know that I am extraordinary,

15:31

extraordinarily privileged, right to have

15:33

received all of this education.

15:35

And I've learned from some really great minds.

15:38

But just like we do at Mama Bear

15:40

apologetics, the goal is to equip

15:42

you so that you can then

15:44

equip your children. No one

15:46

expects anyone to go and get a degree.

15:48

There are great degree programs out there,

15:51

but you can read Scripture. That's

15:53

that's honestly the best guide

15:56

for anyone. And unfortunately, statistics

15:58

are saying that most Christians aren't reading

16:01

their Bible. How can we know truth?

16:03

How can we spot falsehood if we're

16:05

not opening up the Word of God?

16:07

That is the most basic thing

16:09

I can tell any Christian before

16:11

going to get an education, a formal

16:13

education somewhere. Educate

16:15

yourself with the Word of God. See

16:17

what God has to say about how

16:20

you should live your life and follow

16:22

that directive before you start

16:24

paying money to go and learn in a formal

16:27

education setting, there are some,

16:29

like I said, some great programs, and I and

16:31

I'm happy to recommend those. But

16:33

you can learn all you need to learn from

16:35

Scripture. Um, I don't know how

16:38

to make that any clearer.

16:39

No, but I'll tell you what, it's the most important

16:41

point you could make because you rightfully

16:43

noted that, according to Barna and other groups

16:45

like Barna that do this sort of research were biblically

16:47

illiterate and were moving in the wrong direction continuously.

16:50

So as an example, if you look at his

16:52

categorical divisions and you look at the group

16:54

called Evangelical Christians, which one would

16:56

presume believes in salvation by faith through

16:58

grace, the physical resurrection, and

17:01

of Jesus Christ, the indwelling of the Holy

17:03

Spirit upon receiving him as your Lord and Savior, I

17:05

mean pretty rudimentary Christian

17:07

orthodoxy. And yet that same

17:09

group of people who would say, I believe in these things

17:12

start to say that Jesus committed sin, that

17:14

the Bible isn't the Word of God, but contains the Word

17:16

of God, and that the devil is really is

17:18

symbolic. He's not really a living entity.

17:21

Now, those are also cornerstone issues. So

17:23

if we don't even believe that in our own heart,

17:25

how do we go out and offer a defense

17:27

for what we believe when we come back?

17:29

I want to ask you why this bridge building

17:32

is so important. And if

17:34

we what do we do to need to change our mindset

17:36

when we start to engage? Do we look at the person

17:38

as an opponent, as a boxing partner,

17:40

as counsel for the defense and your

17:43

counsel for the prosecution? How do we

17:45

approach this in a way that maybe

17:47

we put on a new set of glasses? Because if we don't

17:49

have the right perspective on this, bridge building isn't even

17:51

going to be a part of it. The book is called Bridge

17:53

Building Apologetics. Fabulous,

17:56

important, timely, and I would say

17:58

essential reading back after this. Lindsey

18:14

McDonald is with us. She joins us today

18:16

as the author of Bridge Building Apologetics

18:19

How to Get Along When We Disagree.

18:21

How crucial. Just take a look outside your front door. I think

18:23

that's important. Again, she's the director

18:25

of Ministry operations at Mama Bear Apologetics

18:28

and serves as a consulting editor for the Christian

18:30

Research Journal. By the way, her focus

18:32

in the world of apologetics is on world religions

18:35

and how we talk to people of other faiths. So

18:37

let me pick it up at that point as a teaching

18:39

moment for this bridge building. So a

18:41

what piqued your interest in world religions?

18:46

That's a great question. My dad's a pastor

18:48

and my parents were missionaries, and so I

18:50

think it came quite naturally to me

18:52

to be interested in what other people

18:55

believed. That kind of grew

18:57

as I went to college. I wanted to know

18:59

why there were people of other faiths.

19:02

I spent a semester as

19:04

a I think I was a senior studying

19:07

other books of religion just so that I

19:09

could read them. And I worked

19:11

with a professor to kind of get some knowledge

19:13

on those things. And then it just went from

19:15

there. I've, I can't even remember

19:18

how many books I've read. Now, Janet, on

19:20

on the topic of world religion and

19:22

engaging with people from other worldviews

19:25

has just been something that God has, you

19:27

know, given me the opportunity to do frequently

19:29

throughout my lifetime. I know that sometimes

19:32

that's not something that's true for everyone.

19:35

Uh, we we get maybe we live in a place

19:37

that there aren't a lot of people with other worldviews

19:39

or other world religions, but I have,

19:41

thankfully have had the opportunity to

19:44

engage with a wide variety of

19:46

people who believe different things.

19:48

And that's been beautiful

19:51

for my life.

19:52

Oh, I'll bet it has. And I bet you've learned

19:54

so many lessons. And this is why I wanted to go

19:56

to this point. Because there are

19:58

if someone comes from an Islamic perspective,

20:00

for example, I mean, they're going to have a markedly different

20:02

worldview about you,

20:04

about what you believe, about what the Bible has

20:06

to say. But they're also going to have some pretty sincere

20:09

beliefs about what they believe as well.

20:11

How important when someone comes

20:13

from your dialoguing from

20:15

a perspective with someone who's 180 degrees

20:17

different, how important is listening in

20:19

all of this?

20:21

I would argue it's one of the most important

20:23

things we can do. Janet, um, I

20:26

think we've lost that skill, haven't we?

20:28

Uh, I teach a class for freshmen

20:31

here at Northwestern College in

20:33

Orange City, Iowa. And one of the things

20:36

that we have to do is we have to give speeches.

20:38

And I ask the students to keep

20:40

a listening journal to determine

20:43

how well they're listening to another

20:45

person's speech. They evaluate

20:47

the way that they lean in, for example,

20:49

or the way that they nod their head, or

20:51

the way that they ask questions. And

20:53

I think that this is a lesson that adults,

20:56

all of us need to learn, because we've

20:58

lost that art and we've lost

21:00

that skill. It's easy now with

21:02

social media to simply one

21:05

off with a response to somebody and not

21:07

really think about it. And then when we're

21:09

engaging face to face, unfortunately,

21:11

we've fallen into that routine as well.

21:13

So I want people to understand

21:16

that it's so important to learn

21:18

about the person you're speaking with.

21:21

Just because they fall into a particular

21:23

worldview or a world religion, doesn't

21:26

mean they necessarily believe all

21:28

of the things that fall in within that,

21:30

including, as you so eloquently pointed

21:32

out in the last session, was

21:34

Christians. We can't assume that all

21:36

Christians have Orthodox

21:39

views and that their

21:41

ideas come from Scripture.

21:43

And in order to know those things, we need

21:45

to ask questions. And then we need to

21:47

listen well. Don't just anticipate

21:50

your next response. Instead,

21:52

I talk about in the book, we want to sit in

21:54

the grass with them and really learn

21:57

from them about why they believe

21:59

the way that they believe, rather than putting

22:01

a a title on them and saying, oh,

22:03

you're a muslim. You believe all of these things.

22:06

Don't just assume that about people. Instead

22:08

learn about them from them.

22:10

Wow. Okay. So a everyone

22:12

is called to be an apologist. If you're a follower

22:14

of Christ, be listening is absolutely paramount,

22:17

and the phrase we like to use around

22:19

my kitchen table is listen with the ears on your heart,

22:21

you just brilliantly said, don't be anticipating

22:24

the thing you're going to ask right after that. Because if

22:26

you're doing that, you're formenting the next question. You're

22:28

not listening to what they're saying in the first place.

22:30

And very often, if you're listening, is

22:32

there not a question behind the question

22:34

that they're asking us sometimes? And let me

22:36

tell you, and I'm not smart enough to have figured out myself,

22:39

I'm going to turn to Brother Paul. So if

22:41

Bible historians are correct, he walked around

22:43

Athens for a year and a half before he gave that address

22:45

at the Areopagus, and the saying

22:48

of his day was, there were as many gods

22:50

as there were men in Athens. So when he gets up

22:52

in his first opening statement in his argument is,

22:54

I see that you're a very religious people. He didn't

22:56

stumble on that. He knew that this was a polytheistic

22:59

religious world, and he probably knew

23:01

who most of the gods were and what their beliefs were.

23:04

So he uses that as a launching point

23:06

after spending a year and a half listening.

23:08

So we just kind of skip over the year and

23:10

a half listening part before he gives that address in

23:12

acts 17, he was effective

23:14

because he'd been listening first, was he not?

23:17

Yes. Uh, Paul

23:19

was such a great example for us.

23:21

And I think, you know, I listed Jesus

23:24

as the first example of a bridge builder.

23:26

But Paul was extraordinary

23:28

in the way that he engaged

23:31

with people on their level.

23:33

He didn't take what he knew

23:36

and hold it over them and

23:38

say, oh, well, this is what you believe.

23:40

Instead, he engaged with them

23:42

in deep conversations,

23:44

often relating to them with

23:47

cultural references. He

23:49

was well-read. He he he seems

23:51

to have had quite, quite an education.

23:53

And like you said, he went off and he studied

23:55

for a while. So it's not like he just

23:57

entered into conversations willy

24:00

nilly without thinking about it.

24:02

Uh, he he took some time to

24:04

study the word, study scripture, realized

24:06

that key. Um, he was a

24:08

new Christian. He had had a transformation

24:11

that was incredible. And he

24:13

wanted to share that information.

24:14

But he also knew those people had

24:17

some baggage. And they needed to know Jesus,

24:19

too.

24:19

It's that truth and love. That's exactly

24:22

right. Well, there's so many questions I want to ask

24:24

you. This is so important. And I also want us to

24:26

get out of our zone of fear that

24:28

somehow the idea of rejection when

24:30

we engage supersedes the passion

24:33

for those who don't yet know Jesus.

24:35

I can't instill that in you. That's something you

24:37

have to ask the Lord to do to change your heart.

24:39

And he's very, very faithful

24:41

in answering the prayers of someone who says, Lord, break

24:44

my heart for the lost.

24:46

Is your heart broken? Lindsay? Walt

24:48

is with us. Her book is called Bridge Building Apologetics

24:51

How to Get along even When We disagree.

24:53

Back after this. We

25:04

can all safely say that society seems to be

25:06

decaying before our eyes, and in the market,

25:09

we're tackling the issues head on from a biblical

25:11

perspective, so you'll know how to influence

25:13

and occupy. A Scripture says become

25:15

a partial partner today and support in the market.

25:17

As a benefit, you'll receive exclusive resources

25:20

every week prepared just for you. Call

25:22

877 Janet 58

25:24

or go online to in the market with Janet

25:27

parshall.org. Revisiting

25:31

with Lindsay Mittenwald what a brilliant

25:33

author she is and what a gentle

25:35

apologist she is as well. She's the Director

25:37

of Ministry Operations at Mama Bear

25:40

Apologetics and serves as a consulting

25:42

editor for the Christian Research Journal. She's got

25:44

a master's in apologetics and ethics from

25:46

Denver Seminary. She got a law degree

25:48

from Saint Mary's School of Law and a master's

25:50

degree in public administration from Midwestern

25:53

State University. Her focus

25:55

world religion. She loves to engage with

25:57

people from different world views, and

25:59

she teaches us how to do just that

26:01

through her brand new book called Bridge Building

26:04

Apologetics How to Get Along, Even When

26:06

We disagree. And this is so paramount because again,

26:08

Ephesians directive to us when we engage

26:10

is truth in love, not truth

26:13

or love. And the church is just

26:15

falling all over itself on this particular

26:17

issue. So let me go some. I'm going

26:19

to go back to the garden if I can, and do some more pruning.

26:21

One of the reasons, I think that a lot of believers

26:23

are reticent to engage, whether it's

26:25

from a person, from another religious worldview,

26:28

or the person in the office cubicle

26:30

with you, is because we fear rejection,

26:32

that when our comfort is threatened,

26:35

then we retreat from the clarion

26:37

call to declare truth. How do we get over

26:39

that?

26:41

Uh, that's a tough one, isn't it, Janet? I,

26:43

I can resonate with that. I understand

26:45

I'm also, uh, would label myself

26:48

an introvert. And so having conversations

26:50

with people is just a little bit scary.

26:53

It doesn't matter what that topic is. And when

26:55

we start talking about the things that

26:57

we believe in and those deeply held

26:59

thoughts that we have, it

27:01

can be doubly scary.

27:03

But I always encourage people to

27:06

be as natural as they possibly

27:08

can be. Uh, one of the foundations

27:10

for bridge building is friendship. So if

27:12

we're starting with a genuine relationship

27:15

with people, a genuine friendship,

27:17

it gets a lot easier to have

27:19

these kinds of conversations because

27:21

we already know the person and they

27:23

know us, and there's a trust

27:25

between us. Um, of course there

27:28

will be times where we maybe don't know

27:30

them as well or they don't know us. And

27:32

in those times, I tell people to

27:34

take it easy and take a deep breath,

27:36

think about what they do know, pray

27:38

and ask the Lord for guidance. I think

27:41

we forget that we can pray.

27:43

I think we forget that we have the Holy Spirit

27:45

as our Paraclete and our helper. And

27:47

if we can remind ourselves of those things,

27:50

those very foundational things, as

27:52

a Christ follower that we have,

27:54

then we can engage a little bit

27:56

more easily, I think. So

27:58

be natural, take a breath, pray and

28:01

ask for guidance.

28:02

Exactly, exactly. And I'm

28:04

going to put it in very, very simplistic

28:06

parlance. But to me it was ground

28:08

shaking, especially being in Washington because

28:11

I thought it would be a medical missionary in the African

28:13

continent. I did not think God would call me to Washington

28:16

very different, slightly. And it's like

28:18

being in Athens. Okay. But what I learned

28:20

quickly is there was a wide, sagely

28:22

man who taught me early on when I came to this

28:24

town, that you need to look at people not

28:26

as a 20% enemy, but as an 80%

28:29

friend, because this town is absolutely

28:31

built on the idea of people holding opposing

28:33

worldviews. After all, it's the essence of politics. It's about

28:36

taking your worldview and trying to influence

28:38

another enough people to see it as

28:40

you see it. And then that proposal gets turned into

28:42

an idea for pending legislation.

28:45

And if it's passed, it becomes law. So

28:47

it's all about the engagement of worldview.

28:49

If you look with animus toward the person

28:51

on the other side of the aisle, or the person who's

28:54

sitting across from you when you're doing a national TV

28:56

debate as the enemy, first of all,

28:58

you're belying who you are as an ambassador for

29:00

Christ. But second of all, I think this

29:02

town, this culture, foments the idea

29:05

that it's a winner

29:07

take all. It's a blood sport. You have to annihilate

29:09

and turn into an ink spot, the person who holds

29:11

the opposing worldview. But that's

29:14

not what we're called to do as Christians. But I

29:16

think the fear is I'm going to be rejected.

29:18

So I'm not going to do it because they're going to call me

29:20

names and would look stupid. I'm going to be,

29:22

as The Washington Post famously said before

29:24

they were forced to retract, poor, uneducated,

29:27

and easy to command. So I'm not going to open my mouth because

29:29

I don't want to be labeled any of those things. And then, of course,

29:31

there's that love thing, and I just want

29:33

to love people. And after all, there are no we're Christians

29:35

by our love. So, you know, I'm going to keep the truth in the

29:38

trunk of the car, and I don't have to bring it out necessarily.

29:40

Can you walk us through that gum in the hair

29:42

mess? Because that's where a lot of us get stuck.

29:45

Ah, it's such a terrible place to be,

29:48

isn't it? Um. And I and I

29:50

resonate with that, too. I don't want to be made fun

29:52

of for the things that I believe. Um.

29:54

And I want to keep my friendships,

29:56

but I also don't want to lie

29:58

about who I am. And

30:01

being a Christian is is the

30:03

primary thing in my life, and

30:05

people around me will know that by the way

30:08

that I behave. But it is possible

30:10

that someone will make fun of us.

30:12

And I mean, we only need to tap into

30:14

social media for about three minutes

30:16

and we will find people who make

30:19

fun of us for for what we believe.

30:21

And I want to remind

30:23

people that, uh, early

30:25

Christians were made fun of in this way. We

30:27

see it in Scripture. So this is nothing

30:29

new. Uh, Jesus himself

30:31

was also made fun of

30:33

and and so we're we're in good company

30:36

if that happens. But I also

30:38

want to tell people that they shouldn't take

30:40

it personally. And I know that

30:42

that is easier said than done.

30:45

It's really easy to take things personally

30:47

because somebody is saying to us

30:49

and it feels very personal, but

30:51

I want people to know that it's generally

30:54

not about you at all. It's about

30:56

past experiences that maybe they've had with

30:58

other Christians, maybe hurt that

31:00

they've experienced in a church

31:03

or another faith. And

31:05

it's not about you. It's it's

31:07

it's something else that they're harboring. And I

31:09

think if we can get over that hump and realize that

31:11

maybe it's not actually about us, it

31:13

gets a little easier to say, okay, I'm not

31:15

going to take that personally. I'm going to try to figure out

31:18

what's really going on here and

31:20

maybe ask some questions. Why do

31:22

you feel that way? Yeah. Where did

31:24

you hear that? How did you come to know

31:26

that information and start from

31:28

there, rather than being hurt

31:30

and killing the conversation?

31:33

That's such wise counsel. You

31:35

make the point in this idea of and

31:37

my mama encapsulated it perfectly for me.

31:39

She used to say, honey, I want you to have tough skin, but

31:41

a tender heart so that you can learn to

31:43

deflect the the slings

31:45

and arrows of outrageous criticism when you get it

31:47

and you put it a better way, you say

31:49

defend the gospel, not yourself.

31:52

If that's my mindset going into it, then I'm

31:54

I'm going to deflect it because they're pushing

31:56

back, not against me, Lord willing. I'm not

31:58

an offense, but uh, but

32:00

rather they're pushing against the truth that's

32:02

challenging them. That makes their world

32:05

rock, rattle and roll. Because if they believe what

32:07

I'm espousing, they're going to have to make some choices

32:09

in their life. Choices they might not be ready

32:11

to give up.

32:12

Right. And we need to remember that too, when

32:15

we're engaging with people, because there

32:17

is going to be some level of sacrifice.

32:19

If we already talked about Paul, think

32:21

about the sacrifices that he had to make

32:24

in order to to be a Christian,

32:26

to be a Christ follower, and think about

32:28

some of the things that he engaged with before

32:30

he became a Christian. He was present

32:33

at the stonings of, of of

32:35

Christians, and we read about him

32:37

being present when Stephen was stoned.

32:39

And and so I want us to know

32:41

that, like, it's okay to

32:43

be a little bit afraid. It's okay

32:45

to to have that, that

32:47

fear. But we can't live there and

32:50

stay there. We need to

32:52

get over that barrier and begin

32:54

to just have gentle conversations

32:56

with people. You don't need to know everything. Yeah,

32:58

I really want to make sure that

33:01

your listeners know that nobody is asking

33:03

you or expecting you to know

33:05

all of the answers. If you don't know

33:07

the answer, simply say, I don't know. Let

33:09

me find out and you can do

33:11

the research then. And I actually

33:14

think that your friend might have some

33:16

more respect for you, instead of you saying

33:19

something that might not end up being true

33:21

because you want to have an answer for them right

33:23

now. So take a step

33:25

back and acknowledge that maybe you don't know

33:27

the answer, but you know where you can find

33:30

the answers. And and I think

33:33

there are plenty of apologetics books and

33:35

plenty of books out there and podcasts

33:37

that help people get equipped

33:39

in the truth and rationality

33:41

of of Christianity that can help them

33:43

through those conversations.

33:45

So you also fold into this

33:47

part of the book the necessity of forgiveness.

33:49

How does this work?

33:51

Yeah. Um, well, it

33:53

comes in right when somebody

33:55

offends us and it's

33:58

if we take things personally, then

34:00

we are going to be more, more easily offended.

34:03

Um, but if somebody hurts our

34:05

feelings, we as Christians

34:08

need to extend forgiveness.

34:11

Um, it's not always easy, though,

34:14

because people can say some really

34:16

hurtful things to us. And

34:19

being able to extend forgiveness as Christ

34:21

extended. Forgiveness is,

34:23

is a model to strive for. But

34:25

humans aren't always good at this, and

34:28

it's sometimes easier to just

34:30

brush some somebody off from

34:32

here on out and say, you know what? I'm just not going to

34:35

even have you in my life anymore

34:37

rather than to extend forgiveness.

34:39

And and I acknowledge that that also

34:42

is not easy. Sometimes some

34:44

people can do some really hurtful things.

34:46

And, um, one one

34:48

thing I recommend is that, you know, we ask

34:50

the Lord to give us strength to forgive

34:53

people as we've been forgiven.

34:55

Um, it's in the Lord's Prayer. Begin

34:57

reciting that and make

34:59

it one of those regular prayers

35:02

that you say so that you can begin

35:04

to, um, harbor forgiveness,

35:07

um, rather than anger.

35:08

Yeah. Exactly. Right. So

35:11

one of the things that you talk about in the book

35:13

that I just love is Paul's declaration

35:16

about becoming all things to all

35:18

people, by all means, so that some might

35:20

be saved. I love that verse, by the way.

35:22

It's sort of because maybe it underscores

35:24

the athleticism of the Christian life. You really

35:27

play this game on the balls of your feet. What

35:29

does it mean to be all things to all people?

35:31

Yeah. In in Romans he

35:33

talks about this and how we need to be

35:36

courageous and defend our beliefs.

35:38

But even though we disagree, we can

35:40

still keep peace with all men.

35:43

I think that's a really important foundational

35:45

truth for Christians. Obviously,

35:48

we're going to be engaging with people who

35:50

may not believe what we believe.

35:53

Right? And that was what was happening

35:55

in the to the people of Corinth.

35:58

And when he said all things to all

36:00

people, um, and and

36:02

he does that so that we can

36:04

save some. Right. Um,

36:06

if we can get down, um, to

36:08

where they are or move.

36:10

Over to their aisle rather than

36:12

staying in our own. Um, and

36:14

he's not he never compromised his

36:16

faith. He never engaged

36:18

in worldly things. And so I think we can

36:21

use his model as an example

36:23

to help us engage with others we may disagree

36:25

with.

36:26

Yeah, exactly. Right. Oh,

36:28

such an excellent book. Such a timely book.

36:30

You know, we are countercultural when you think about it.

36:32

So animus, finger pointing,

36:34

arguments, ad hominem. It's they're

36:37

replete in the culture today. And yet

36:39

we don't get a pass. We're still called to

36:41

go out and make disciples, to tell

36:43

the good news, to enter into the marketplace

36:45

of ideas. So how do we do it? And

36:47

what Lindsey is reminding us to do is you build

36:49

bridges with people you can get

36:51

along even when you disagree. So

36:54

let me pick up on that point. When we get back,

36:56

how do you not minimize the truth?

36:58

By bridge building back after this? This

37:05

hour is going far too quickly because there's so much in the book

37:07

I want to get into. The book is bridge building

37:09

apologetics how to get along even

37:11

when we disagree? Lindsay Anwalt is our

37:14

guest. She's the author of the book, as well as director

37:16

of Ministry Operations at Mama

37:18

Bear Apologetics. Okay, this is

37:20

this is the rub, I think, in this conversation,

37:22

which is, you know, we don't have to be told

37:25

what to believe. It's right there in the Word of God,

37:27

and we know it to be inspired

37:29

and error transcended immutable applying to all

37:31

people and all times and all places. Therefore we're

37:33

unashamed. So when I engage

37:35

someone who holds a worldview that is antagonistic

37:38

to what the word says, antithetical to

37:40

what we believe as Christians,

37:43

a lot of people might be saying, I'm not the least

37:45

bit interested in building a bridge. Leave

37:47

them to their own reprobate minds. I'm not

37:49

going to have anything to do with it. So we

37:52

opt out because we think not.

37:54

My problem. Now, there's so

37:56

much wrong with that kind of thinking. Unpack that

37:58

for us, Lindsey. Why? Why is that not

38:00

an excuse for us to sit this out?

38:02

Well, I think you laid the foundation for that

38:04

at the very beginning of the show, Janet, when you

38:06

said, you know, this is a mandate for

38:08

all believers, we don't get a free pass

38:10

just because it makes us uncomfortable

38:13

or because somebody makes fun of

38:15

us for the beliefs that

38:17

we hold as Christians,

38:19

we are called to be fishers of men,

38:21

just as the disciples were called by Jesus

38:23

to do that. And I think

38:25

Scripture is very clear that

38:28

we are to share the gospel

38:30

and the hope within us with as many people as

38:32

possible. Now, I'm not

38:34

saying that there will never

38:36

be a time where we can put we have to

38:38

put boundaries up in place. Of course,

38:40

you could put boundaries in place. Sometimes

38:43

you will have to put boundaries in

38:45

place. There are necessary because we

38:47

have to protect ourselves and our well-being.

38:50

But that shouldn't be the go to action

38:52

or behavior for us as

38:54

Christians. We should want to seek

38:56

reconciliation. We should want

38:59

to seek forgiveness if we've done harm,

39:01

and we should want to share the gospel

39:04

with as many people as possible.

39:06

Why wouldn't we? Because truth

39:08

is saving. And if

39:10

we want people to be saved, we need

39:12

to be willing to take a chance and

39:14

share the truth. Yeah.

39:16

Amen to that. I love the quote you put

39:18

in from Billy Graham. Our faith becomes stronger

39:20

as we express it. A growing faith

39:22

is a sharing faith, and

39:24

I always love to say to my friends who are listening, listen,

39:26

I'm not a voice of condemnation. Romans says, you don't

39:28

have that anymore, but I am going to ask you as a sister,

39:30

when's the last time you talked to somebody about the Lord?

39:33

We come to faith in Christ, and if the stats

39:35

are true, and I live in a town that lives and breathes

39:37

and eats statistics, but the majority

39:40

of Christians sit this one out 93%

39:42

once they come to faith in Christ. Don't tell anybody.

39:44

How can you keep that good news to yourself?

39:47

So the mandate.

39:48

To talk about.

39:48

Sports, we're willing to talk about.

39:50

Politics.

39:51

We're willing to.

39:52

Talk about all the other things that interest

39:54

us. But we can't take an interest

39:56

in talking about our faith. And, and,

39:58

and I understand we are afraid,

40:00

but we've got to stop being afraid. We need

40:02

to share with confidence and earnestly

40:04

contend for the faith as Jude described

40:07

in his letter.

40:08

Yeah, absolutely. You know,

40:10

when I came to town, green and stupid

40:12

and the Lord taught me in his classroom,

40:14

and I'm now a graduate of the School of Hard Knocks.

40:17

One of the things that I learned early on

40:19

was it wasn't about my being read up and being

40:21

prepared and having all my talking

40:23

points and my white papers completely memorized

40:26

so that I could sit in front of a national camera and

40:28

obliterate the opponent. God started

40:30

to break my heart because I started to realize

40:33

that these people were coming from a place. They didn't just

40:35

take a class at some Ivy League school and come up to this

40:37

worldview that a lot was experiential,

40:39

and that was what framed and shaped their worldview.

40:42

One woman in particular, whose

40:44

hallmark was rage, and she

40:46

didn't hesitate to put it out there on a national

40:48

stage on a regular basis. And I was warned, don't

40:50

take the bait. And,

40:53

you know, she broke my heart. And what I started

40:55

to do is exactly how you start the book, Lindsay.

40:57

I started to pray for her, and my

40:59

entire relationship with this woman

41:01

changed because I didn't. I realized she wasn't

41:04

the enemy. She had been caught in the snare

41:06

of the enemy, but she was not

41:08

the enemy. And it's amazing how when you

41:10

start praying for somebody before you open

41:12

your mouth to say a word, it

41:15

changes your entire perspective. That's why

41:17

you started the book with the mandate for prayer. Talk

41:19

to me about this.

41:20

Yeah, I think we forget to pray.

41:23

As Christians. We shouldn't

41:25

because we are told to pray

41:27

without ceasing. And that should

41:29

be how we start our day and how we end

41:31

our day, and how we do everything in between.

41:34

You should not enter conversations

41:36

about your faith without prayer. It

41:38

doesn't have to be a long, extended prayer.

41:41

It could be something about, um,

41:43

let me speak truth in love

41:45

and give me the words to speak for this

41:47

particular person. Because guess

41:49

what? That particular person that

41:51

you're engaging with has a particular

41:54

need. And guess who knows that need?

41:56

The Lord knows that need. And so

41:58

as you engage with people 1 to

42:00

1, you'll find that these conversations

42:02

will generally flow easier than

42:04

you think they will. And and,

42:06

you know, apologists, Janet, have gotten a

42:09

bad rap because we are considered

42:11

combative sometimes. And

42:13

we've used words like words like war

42:16

and battlefield. And,

42:18

and I think that that keeps people

42:20

kind of closed off. Like I don't want to argue with

42:22

people about their faith. There's a

42:24

time and place for debate. There's

42:27

a time and place for that. But in

42:29

general, most of us don't

42:31

want to debate people. And that's

42:33

honestly not really what apologists

42:35

are, right? We are simply

42:38

defending our faith through

42:40

a gentle and respectful conversation.

42:43

And that's why I said, you know, at the beginning,

42:45

everyone's an apologist. We can all do

42:48

this. It doesn't take any special

42:50

skills other than to be kind

42:52

and loving and to share truth.

42:54

So get it out of your head that

42:57

we're out to destroy people. We

42:59

don't want to destroy people. We want to

43:01

share truth with them that will save them.

43:03

Yeah. And yeah, that's.

43:06

That's such a good point. Such a good point. Yes

43:08

it is. Yes it is. So a

43:10

sticking point for some people. And you really talk about

43:12

this in the book, is that you can

43:15

stand for your faith, you can

43:17

be uncompromising, but you can also

43:19

be loving toward the person you're talking to at the same

43:21

time. That's a fine nuance. This

43:23

is coming far too quickly to an end, Lindsay. But can

43:25

you answer that for me? How does standing firm

43:27

and loving go in the same experience?

43:30

Follow Jesus? Right. Jesus was

43:32

loving and he was firm. He was.

43:34

He never compromised the gospel.

43:37

And we shouldn't either. We should love people

43:39

with our whole hearts and see them as image

43:41

bearers, as as people

43:43

who God wants to call his own.

43:45

Once we see people that way, it becomes

43:48

so much easier. Mhm. Wow.

43:50

Oh, Lindsay, there's so much in the book. Thank you for

43:52

this rich rich conversation. So many takeaways.

43:54

And I feel like I've just barely scratched the content

43:57

of bridge building apologetics. You

43:59

hear me say this. You know what I'm going to

44:01

say friends I always say that

44:03

a book that particularly is impactful for me personally.

44:06

I always say, if you're in my classroom, this would

44:08

be required reading. Okay, this is on the syllabus.

44:10

This is a required book for this semester

44:12

because we need to understand that that

44:14

directive in Ephesians wasn't given to us in a haphazard

44:16

fashion, that there is a way to speak truth,

44:18

but to do it in a loving fashion. We have

44:20

role models and people like Jesus first, last

44:23

and always, and Paul, and then people

44:25

like Lindsay, who teaches us how to teach us how to

44:27

do that. So learn how you

44:29

can get along even when you disagree

44:31

for the sake of the cross as

44:34

an ambassador for Christ. And

44:36

I'll tell you what, it's the most exciting thing in the world. You

44:38

don't have to be fearful. You have to be joyously

44:40

anticipating the next opportunity the Lord gives

44:42

you. But I'm going to pick up on what Lindsay said before

44:44

you put your head down on that pillow tonight. Ask the Lord

44:47

to give you an opportunity tomorrow to share the

44:49

good news with somebody. Lindsay,

44:51

thank you for a fabulous conversation. Thank

44:53

you friends, we'll see you next time on In the Market with

44:55

Janet Parshall.