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Visit AJProducts.ie to see how we

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can make your workplace work for

0:11

you. Since the

0:13

turn of this century, India

0:16

has been the second fastest growing

0:19

economy in the world. Indian

0:21

Prime Minister Narendra Modi is set

0:23

for an election win. He's

0:25

been in power for 10 years and

0:28

in that time India has experienced an

0:30

economic transformation and Modi has been

0:32

welcomed on the world stage. Millions

0:34

have lifted themselves

0:38

out of poverty into a

0:40

new life of possibilities.

0:42

But it's his Hindu ultra-nationalism

0:44

and his use of anti-Muslim

0:46

rhetoric that underpins his popularity.

0:48

Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi

0:50

has been accused of making

0:52

Islamophobic comments during an election

0:54

rally, triggering widespread anger from

0:56

Muslims and members of the

0:58

opposition. So who is Narendra

1:00

Modi? What secrets are in

1:02

his past like the wife

1:04

he walked away from and

1:06

his links to the world's

1:08

largest far-right organisation? And

1:11

why is he so popular despite

1:13

being so hard to pin down? It's

1:16

been hard trying to get people to

1:18

talk to me openly about him. They're

1:20

worried there will be consequences. For

1:22

her podcast series, Looking for Modi, the

1:25

South Asia Bureau Chief for Australia's ABC

1:27

News, Avani Diaz, explored every aspect of

1:29

his life and career. And

1:32

she tells us how her investigation into Modi's

1:34

attempts to silence his critics has

1:36

shut her out of India. I'm going to be

1:38

honest, as a journalist in India, I'm pretty nervous

1:40

about getting into this. This is in

1:43

the news from the Irish Times. I'm

1:45

Bernice Harrison. Today, who is

1:47

Narendra Modi? Avani

1:52

Dias, welcome to the podcast. Thanks so

1:54

much for having me. Now, we've invited

1:56

you on in the news to talk

1:58

about Narendra Modi. the popular

2:01

and successful Prime Minister of

2:03

India. He's 73, vital,

2:05

charismatic, and he is in

2:08

many ways the embodiment of modern

2:10

India, but there's a dark side to

2:12

him. He's built his political

2:15

career on a philosophy of Hindu

2:17

nationalism, often at

2:19

the expense of India's large

2:22

Muslim minority and other

2:24

smaller minorities. He's been

2:26

linked to outbreaks of sectarian

2:28

violence, and his hostility

2:31

to a free questioning press has

2:33

grown over his 10 years

2:35

in power. Avani, you

2:37

are the South Asia Bureau

2:39

Chief for Australia's ABC News,

2:42

and until recently you were based in India,

2:44

in New Delhi, but you

2:46

had to leave India. Why? Yeah, it

2:49

was a strange experience. I mean, I

2:51

started in India about two and a

2:53

half years ago and I knew when

2:55

I entered the country that there were

2:57

criticisms of the Narendra Modi government, his

3:00

handling of democracy in what is supposed

3:02

to be the world's largest democracy. I

3:05

knew that there were concerns around how

3:08

the press was treated, but I didn't

3:10

really expect to be in a position

3:12

where I'm now talking to you from

3:15

Australia while their Indian election, one

3:17

of the biggest stories of the year, is

3:19

playing out over there. About a month

3:21

ago is when things really escalated. I mean,

3:23

from the very beginning, there's constant pressure.

3:28

As a journalist in India, there

3:30

are constant threats and there's definitely

3:32

a chilling effect amongst journalists, but

3:34

in the last month, things really

3:36

escalated for me. When I got

3:38

a call from a ministry official,

3:40

someone from India's equivalent of the foreign

3:43

ministry, who told me that my reporting

3:45

had, quote, crossed a line and that

3:47

my visa extension would not be renewed.

3:49

Now, every year we need to, as

3:52

journalists, foreign journalists working in India, get

3:54

a one-year extension. It's a pretty standard

3:57

process, just a bureaucratic process that we

3:59

go through. So I thought that mine would

4:01

come through as it usually does, but

4:03

I was told that that would not

4:05

be the case. Now

4:07

the day before that, a story I had

4:09

done on Sikh separatism, so this

4:12

movement to form the state of

4:14

Punjab in the north of India

4:16

into an independent nation for Sikhs,

4:19

which is a movement that has

4:21

gained traction in countries like Australia,

4:24

the US, the UK, and so on.

4:27

I was doing a story

4:29

investigating Canada's allegations that the

4:32

Indian government is orchestrating hits

4:35

on Sikh separatists. The

4:37

Narendra Modi government is being accused

4:39

of assassinating a Sikh separatist on

4:42

foreign soil. India says those

4:44

claims are absurd. It was a major story

4:46

that broke last year and we were looking

4:48

into that on the ground in Punjab. Now

4:50

a story that I had done on that was

4:53

blocked by the Indian government on YouTube and it

4:55

was taken down off social media sites. It's clear

4:57

that we're being really monitored and that there's concern

4:59

about the story that we're doing. And

5:01

that is what preceded that fall and me

5:04

being told that I wouldn't get that visa

5:06

extension. And of

5:08

course massively frustrating for you to be out of

5:10

India when the elections are going on.

5:13

Now in your podcast it's terrific. I

5:15

urge all our listeners to listen

5:17

to it. It's called Looking for Modi.

5:20

It's for ABC News. You explore

5:22

his personality and his rise to power

5:24

and the controversies that have followed him

5:26

but they haven't hindered him in

5:29

his life. Throughout it all

5:31

his popularity seems to be undimmed.

5:49

What is it about him that Indian voters

5:51

love so much? close

6:00

to Narendra Modi going to his

6:02

hometown, finding out more

6:04

about his life and through many

6:06

people that have been in his life. And

6:09

what I found, especially speaking to

6:11

ordinary Indians, is that people really

6:14

love Narendra Modi. There

6:16

is a huge popularity on the ground.

6:18

And that's because Narendra Modi has told

6:20

this story about his life as an

6:22

ordinary person, someone who can relate to

6:24

other Indians, which he compares

6:27

to the previous leaders in India,

6:29

namely the Congress Party, which is

6:32

the main opposition, which he describes

6:34

as dynasty politics, educated, rich,

6:36

English-speaking people who aren't like the

6:38

ordinary day-to-day Indians. And that's a

6:40

part of his story that has

6:42

just really resonated with voters and

6:44

something that people really relate to.

6:46

And a big part of Modi's

6:48

leadership over the last decade has

6:51

been welfare policies, saying I relate

6:53

to you as someone who grew

6:55

up in tough circumstances. I'm going

6:57

to give you a house through

6:59

the government or a toilet or

7:01

whatever other form of basic welfare

7:03

that these people need. And

7:05

that has made people feel really empowered.

7:08

And that's one element of Narendra Modi's

7:10

leadership that's made him really popular, going

7:12

into what is expected to

7:14

be a third term for him after this

7:17

election. And the other

7:19

element is his sort of appeal

7:21

to the Hindu majority, this idea

7:23

that Hindus in India, which make

7:26

up the majority of the country,

7:28

have been hard done by, especially

7:30

the Muslim empire, which came in

7:34

previous centuries, but also

7:36

other religions and sort of othering

7:39

them in order to make the

7:41

Hindu population feel safe. And

7:45

Mr. Modi said, if the opposition

7:47

congress is voted back into

7:49

power, it would distribute citizens

7:51

wealth among what he called

7:53

infiltrators. And there's

7:55

been a lot of criticism around Narendra

7:58

Modi's politics in that sense. The

8:00

to really major elements which of really appeal

8:02

to people but they didn't upon cost up

8:04

there are all that wanted to his life

8:06

that I found so fascinating and crazy. I

8:08

mean he has this wife that he was

8:11

estranged from ah when he was young he

8:13

was in put into an arranged marriage with

8:15

this woman from a village near by and

8:17

he left her when he was a teenager

8:19

to go walk around the Himalayas. so in

8:21

the podcast be good looking for her because

8:24

now she's just living a normal life. She

8:26

notices lady she's never out and about with

8:28

the range of modi and. The

8:30

some reason when that came out. In

8:32

Twenty Four Chain, it didn't damage she's reputation

8:35

at all, and it just. Shows. How

8:37

strong that narrative around Narendra Modi is?

8:40

Actually, that's a great scene and podcast where

8:42

you almost got to talk to her on

8:44

the phone, but it doesn't quite work out.

8:46

I mean, Foster likes to sleep now it's

8:48

so. Interesting. I mean you know this

8:51

woman who eat there was set up

8:53

in very traditional circumstances in good your

8:55

odd and it was either the step

8:57

by step process that a lot of

8:59

people in nineteen sixties and seventies India

9:01

would have been going through and I

9:04

spoke to Narendra Modi childhood friends who

9:06

said year old us are getting married

9:08

off at that age and Modi decided

9:10

to leave and wanted to forge his

9:12

own path obviously ultimately going into politics

9:14

and I felt out that India is

9:17

actually quite a lot it and. Celebrated

9:19

to be a single person someone. he

9:21

says that they did dedicate everything over

9:23

in among Black Saxon to their job

9:26

and to leading the country that their

9:28

families Indian people in. That certainly the

9:30

narrative that Modi is built around his

9:32

prime Ministership, but going to zealots I

9:35

mean we we saw with the circumstances

9:37

she was living in. It is so

9:39

ordinary. It's an ordinary Indian place in

9:41

the west of the country. Good drops

9:44

the village. It's it's not. It's not

9:46

pool by any means, but it's and

9:48

family. average and this woman you know

9:50

people talk about her we met people

9:53

who had met her they said she

9:55

helps out and volunteers at the local

9:57

hospital she looks like any other woman

10:00

And people are quite shocked to learn

10:02

that she's actually married to the Prime

10:04

Minister, who is obviously living in totally

10:06

different circumstances. I've seen his bungalows in

10:08

New Delhi, and it's a very grand

10:10

place to live. So seeing that comparison

10:12

between the two, and I don't think

10:15

many people would realize that he has

10:17

this secret life that Narendra Modi really

10:19

never talked about at all. So

10:23

you mentioned there his early life,

10:25

but one early influence was his

10:27

membership of something called

10:29

the RSS. What

10:32

is the RSS, and what

10:34

influence did it have on him? So it's

10:37

this organization which now has

10:39

six million members, and it's

10:41

described by many researchers as

10:44

the largest far-right organization in

10:46

the world. It very explicitly

10:48

on its website says that

10:50

India is a Hindu-dominant country,

10:52

that Hindus deserve the first

10:54

stature when it comes to

10:56

India. And that is

10:59

in contrast with India's secular constitution.

11:01

The constitution specifically says that people

11:03

of all religions are welcome and

11:06

equal in India and should not be

11:08

discriminated against. And India is a huge

11:10

country. I mean, it's got several

11:13

hundred million Muslim

11:15

people, one of the largest Muslim populations in

11:18

the world, and many other religions. People

11:21

follow those religions in India. So

11:23

the RSS ideology is in contrast

11:25

to that that is in the

11:27

constitution. And we got

11:29

rear access into one of these

11:31

meetings of the RSS, which functions,

11:33

again, according to researchers, very much

11:35

like a paramilitary organization. Actually, some

11:37

have described it to the IRA,

11:39

but others are saying, well, it's

11:41

not as extreme in the fact

11:43

that it doesn't have weapons at

11:45

this stage or anything like that. But

11:47

it does train its members in things

11:50

like military drills,

11:53

combat and so on. So

11:55

this Showcase is happening basically on a

11:57

grass patch on the side of the road. I'm

12:00

it. A. Like. Fifteen we

12:02

need. He was. yeah. Home

12:05

and. Ness playing

12:08

a whole lot of physical

12:10

games, And the

12:12

Nets fan team or that

12:14

is. Holding

12:16

that Hindu nationalists. And.

12:23

And oh, what we heard from

12:25

the Rss is that it's actually

12:27

just a day to day charity

12:29

organization that helps people on the

12:31

ground while trying to spread this

12:33

ideology in a peaceful manner. So

12:35

it's denies his allegations. About being

12:38

a paramilitary organization. but if.

12:40

Is really fascinating that this is

12:42

where the read your modi started

12:44

his political thinking. He was an

12:46

eight year old that was recruited

12:48

into these organizations. Again, racer to

12:50

say that sir. Similar to how

12:52

lot of these sort of right

12:55

wing organizations or pride around the

12:57

world they recruit kids are bring

12:59

them in, three games and food

13:01

is on these club sort of

13:03

boyscout Connors meetings and then as

13:05

soon as slowly indoctrinate them through

13:07

their various political ideologies. And that's

13:09

when. Modi started as an eight year

13:11

old in his village. He started going

13:14

to some of these meetings. I met

13:16

some as the he's Selling members who

13:18

went with him when they would kids

13:20

as well. On this still part of

13:22

the Rss sound or undermine, he worked

13:24

his way up through the organization of

13:26

the many decades. He ended up becoming

13:28

one of their chief organizes and then

13:30

the Rss created a political arm which

13:32

is called the Bjp and Ah although

13:35

they are separate entities. The roots of

13:37

the Bjp started from the Rss. Some

13:39

members of the Bjp. No longer agree

13:41

with Rss ideologies others very much do.

13:43

and Modi then moved into the party

13:45

and was actively an organizer in the

13:47

party and of course worked his way

13:49

up to prime minister of the country.

13:52

Now the Bjp has enormous tally in

13:54

India, a national holiday, and in state

13:56

parliament's I think a lot of people

13:58

would be surprised to learn. that those are

14:00

the roots of Narendra Modi. Another

14:03

aspect that's quite surprising to

14:06

me maybe is squaring his membership with

14:08

the RSS with what happened to him

14:10

just directly after he left his wife. He became a

14:13

devotee of a Swami, of Swami

14:15

Vekananda, a Hindu monk who died in 1902.

14:21

I mean, this is an entire fascinating

14:23

story in your podcast about young

14:26

Modi. He's three of his wife, takes to the

14:28

road, and it seems as

14:30

if he nearly becomes a monk, but

14:32

then turns his back on that

14:34

and goes back to politics. But

14:38

the philosophy of Vekananda

14:40

is milder to

14:42

the sort that Modi would have been

14:45

involved with in the RSS.

14:47

Do you think that experience

14:49

shaped his politics? Yeah,

14:52

and it's interesting that he actually says

14:54

that he trekked around the Himalayas and

14:56

went across India, and he

14:58

went to some of the ashrams, so sort of

15:00

the centers that

15:03

were built by people

15:05

who were inspired by the

15:07

Swami Vekananda. He

15:13

says that he went to some of the

15:15

head monks and said, look, I want to

15:17

join your order. I want to follow you.

15:19

I'm a dedicated person that loves Swami Vekananda.

15:21

And they said, oh, no, this isn't for

15:24

you. And then he says that the third

15:26

time he went to one of these ashrams,

15:28

he was told by the monk, your

15:30

actual job is your life's path,

15:32

which is social work

15:35

and serving society in a different way,

15:37

not through the monkhood. And he says

15:39

that's what really set him onto politics.

15:43

Then again, this is a part of his story

15:45

that according to researchers, no one can really

15:47

verify. I mean, there aren't records that show

15:49

Modi went to any of these ashrams. It's

15:51

something that only he has spoken about. No

15:53

one else can corroborate what happened. But

15:56

he has built this

15:58

into his narrative because... A, it

16:00

shows that he is again a monk-like

16:02

person, someone who's the sort of saviour

16:04

of India, and that's something he specifically

16:06

says in his speeches constantly, that he's

16:09

received word from God to do

16:11

certain things politically. But

16:14

it has also, as you say,

16:16

softened that hardline background which he's

16:18

had. He has this ability to

16:20

straddle both worlds. On one end,

16:22

he can appeal to that Hindu

16:25

right-wing majority, which is a big

16:28

part of his base, his political base, he's

16:30

really got that on board. But

16:32

having the Swami Vivekananda, who is a

16:34

really influential and very popular figure in

16:37

India, someone that he says he's devoted

16:39

his life to, someone he still talks

16:41

about in his political career, that is

16:44

a more moderate form of Hindu religion

16:46

that he can really tap into and

16:49

use that to say, look, I also appeal

16:51

to the moderate type. So in many ways,

16:53

Narendra Modi is a genius of a politician.

16:57

The way that he has marketed himself and

16:59

the way that he has told his story

17:01

to people and managed to appeal to so

17:03

many different parts of India is

17:05

really something that a lot of politicians around

17:07

the world can learn from because it is

17:09

really impressive the way that he's been able

17:11

to do that. So he's working his way

17:13

up through the BJP party.

17:16

It's relatively small and it's relatively obscure

17:18

at the time, but it found

17:21

success with the campaign around the

17:23

idea that secularism in India had

17:25

become biased against the Hindu

17:27

majority. And what that led to was

17:30

a mob destroying a Muslim mosque in

17:33

1992. That was a

17:35

watershed moment. Thousands of people died

17:37

in the subsequent riots. Whereas the

17:39

dust settles on the demolition at

17:42

Ayodhya, it is apparent that the

17:44

BJP has affected the greatest political

17:46

polarization since independence. Equally

17:49

importantly, the communal frenzy which followed

17:51

the events of December the 6th

17:53

has been so seared on the

17:55

Indian conscience that perhaps India has

17:57

changed forever. What

18:00

impact did that have on Modi

18:03

and the BJP? Yeah, as you

18:05

say, I mean, that was a hugely divisive

18:07

part of India's history in 1992. And

18:10

a lot of people saw that as a

18:12

real turning point for the country when it

18:14

came to these religious clashes

18:17

that we have continued to see in

18:19

different ways in India. But

18:21

earlier this year, I was there in

18:24

that town, Ayodhya, where that new Hindu

18:26

temple has been built in the place

18:28

of that mosque for several decades since

18:30

1992. So nearly more

18:33

than 30 years, there's been

18:35

this campaign to build that new temple,

18:37

that Hindu temple. There have been court

18:39

cases, there have been major inquiries, huge

18:42

disputes in the public sphere about what

18:44

should happen on that site. And finally,

18:46

in 2024, Narendra Modi in

18:49

January consecrated part of that Hindu

18:51

temple. And he's made it a

18:53

part of his prime ministership to

18:55

really advocate for the opening of

18:57

that Hindu temple, which many see

18:59

as a real symbol for his

19:01

treatment of minorities in the country.

19:03

I mean, it's physically replacing

19:06

what was once a mosque that stood

19:08

in its place. And when I was

19:11

there, on one hand, there

19:13

was huge celebrations on the streets, people

19:15

were very jovial. There

19:17

was saffron-coloured robes when people were walking

19:20

around on the streets. I mean, people

19:22

were so excited, people were watching it

19:24

across India. I mean, Narendra Modi managed

19:26

to make so many Indians

19:28

a part of that temple and that

19:30

opening. But then when you turn the

19:32

corner and spoke to the Muslim people

19:34

who were in the sort of back

19:36

streets living there, they felt left out.

19:38

They felt worried about even

19:41

walking out on the streets and what could

19:43

eventuate and so on. But

19:45

one key thing that Narendra Modi made

19:47

clear in his speech was that he

19:49

marked this as a new turning point

19:52

for India, one where violence was over.

19:54

He never actually specified the violence or

19:56

the riots which had occurred after

19:59

that temple But he said that

20:01

this was a new chapter for India. So

20:03

it was really interesting and again really smart

20:06

the way Narendra Modi spoke about it because

20:08

he tried to make it all-encompassing and it

20:10

was effectively his campaign launch for this year's

20:12

election. Can we talk about another

20:15

riot? And that was in 2002. Modi

20:18

at the time, he was chief minister

20:20

of the Gujarat region, which

20:22

has a population of 60

20:25

million. That's just for context

20:27

for us. The Gujarat riots, this

20:30

was a situation that is being

20:32

regarded as the darkest chapter in

20:35

his career. What happened? Yeah,

20:37

and it's a really controversial one as

20:39

well. I mean, there's a lot of

20:41

division again over what happened in those

20:43

riots. What we do know is that

20:45

there were several people who died, mostly

20:47

Muslim people, and those

20:49

riots were triggered actually

20:51

after a trainload of

20:54

religious pilgrims had returned from that town

20:56

of Iordia, which we were just talking

20:58

about. They were there sort of in

21:01

the fight for that temple. And when

21:03

they came back, there was

21:05

a train fire and there's been a lot of

21:07

inquiries into who did that train fire. Some

21:09

people said it was by Muslims. Others

21:12

said that it was not, that

21:14

it was just an accident. But

21:16

what happened afterwards, Narendra Modi's government

21:18

endorsed the taking

21:20

out of those bodies of those Hindu pilgrims

21:22

who died on that train fire. And

21:25

we speak to one of the family members of someone who

21:27

died on that train. Those bodies were

21:29

put in the middle of a town in Gujarat for

21:31

many to see. And

21:33

this sparked off anguish

21:35

and outrage and the

21:37

communal bitter feeling leading to

21:39

an attack on the Muslims. That

21:42

decision and other decisions triggered

21:44

riots between Muslims and

21:46

Hindus in that time. And that's a

21:49

part of Narendra Modi's story that has caused

21:51

him a lot of grief. I mean, after

21:53

those riots, so at the time he was

21:55

chief minister of the state of Gujarat, he

21:57

was banned from countries like the US, Europe.

22:00

and the UK as well for a

22:02

period of time. And he was really

22:04

ostracized from the political and business communities,

22:07

but he did manage to sort of bury

22:09

that part of his story and

22:12

try to move forward in an

22:14

economic sense and sort of focus

22:16

on that part of Gujarat and

22:18

developing that. And he still managed

22:20

to win future elections in Gujarat

22:22

in very, very strong circumstances. So

22:24

he did manage to put that

22:27

aside, but even just in

22:30

last year, the BBC released a documentary which

22:32

scrutinized his role in those riots and they

22:35

were raided and that documentary was blocked and

22:37

that was a big controversy. So this is

22:39

a part of his story that still does

22:41

come up, but politically, I mean, he's welcomed

22:43

back in the US, in the UK, just

22:46

recently had a state dinner with Joe Biden.

22:48

He's back on the political scene, obviously, as

22:50

one of the most powerful leaders in the

22:52

world. And as you say,

22:54

it didn't hurt him politically at home.

22:56

He was elected chief minister in 2012. And

22:59

then in 2014, he became prime

23:01

minister of India. Was

23:03

that because he was perceived as

23:06

a good leader of Gujarat or

23:08

was it more to do with

23:10

his appeal to Hindu nationalism? It was a combination.

23:13

I mean, on one hand, he was

23:15

seen as someone who brought a lot

23:17

of economic progress to Gujarat. Now, some

23:19

economists debate whether that was purely him

23:22

or whether Gujarat always had a lot

23:24

of effective economic

23:26

policy, but a lot of people saw

23:28

the development that came in Gujarat under

23:30

Narendra Modi's leadership there. And they thought,

23:33

look, this could happen across the country.

23:35

He also ran on this platform in

23:37

2014 for his first

23:39

run for prime minister, saying, again,

23:41

that he was different to the Congress, the main

23:43

opposition party, which we spoke about earlier,

23:46

one which had been plagued by corruption scandals.

23:48

And he said, look, my aim

23:50

and promise to you is that I

23:52

won't be a corrupt leader, that I'm

23:54

different to those leaders. And again, he

23:57

really hand home that idea of being

23:59

the ordinary man. different to the

24:01

political elite, which really resonated with

24:03

a lot of ordinary Indians. Although

24:05

there have been other previous Prime

24:07

Ministers who've had ordinary upbringings, Narendra

24:09

Modi has really had a poor

24:11

upbringing, and that's something that's

24:13

really admired by a lot of Indian people.

24:16

And yes, those Hindu nationalist policies also

24:18

resonated with people. So it's really nuanced,

24:20

the kind of popularity that Narendra Modi

24:22

has been able to garner. It's not

24:24

just one thing that's brought him to

24:27

get this level of popularity. I mean,

24:29

some Polish say that he's the most

24:31

popular leader in the world. It's several

24:33

different things that have made him appeal

24:35

to different parts of the world. This

24:37

is happening first time that

24:39

that party, my party,

24:42

BJP, is coming to power.

24:44

This is a landmark. The

24:47

people's entire population of India,

24:50

if all of you go

24:53

one step ahead, then

24:55

the whole country will go

24:59

ahead more than a billion steps.

25:02

This is people's power. Can

25:04

we talk about his popularity

25:06

that's rooted in India's economic

25:08

success? It's real. You

25:10

make it clear in your podcast that people have really

25:13

benefited. People's lives are better than their

25:15

parents, for example, but there's

25:17

a downside. And that is

25:19

the huge and growing economic

25:21

inequality, the gap between rich

25:24

and poor. Is that

25:26

a liability for him now during the election?

25:28

Well, it's an interesting question because on one

25:30

hand, as you say, a lot of people

25:32

that I spoke to before I left India

25:34

on the ground were saying, we are in

25:37

a better position than we were 10 years ago.

25:40

Our kids are going to be in a

25:42

better position than we were growing up. And

25:44

that's something that people really admire and that

25:47

Modi's taken credit for wrongly or rightly. There

25:49

are some people who criticize him for that and

25:51

say that it's a much broader government change that's

25:54

allowed this to happen. But there

25:56

are a lot of people who do feel

25:58

empowered by those policies. But the

26:00

thing that you also hear from even

26:02

his most staunch supporters, especially young Indians,

26:04

and it's worth noting that India is

26:07

the youngest country in the world, so

26:09

it has such a huge young voting

26:11

population, those young people are telling

26:13

me, well, we need jobs, we don't have

26:15

jobs, there aren't enough jobs going around. And

26:18

you know, Narendra Modi talks constantly about

26:20

improving India's place in the world, which

26:23

obviously he's done. India is

26:25

so recognised now as a geopolitical player,

26:27

Western countries are pivoting away from China

26:29

and towards India. And

26:32

he talks about the economic development.

26:34

And it is true, it is

26:36

the world's fastest growing economy now,

26:38

which is very admirable. But

26:41

what economists say is that without

26:43

jobs for people, which is

26:45

the way that China managed to increase

26:47

its economic growth, India

26:49

will not be able to achieve those

26:52

huge, huge strides that it wants to

26:54

make and become one of those top

26:56

three economic players in the world. So

26:59

there is a lot of work to do

27:01

if Narendra Modi gets into power, which he's

27:03

very likely to achieve. And that

27:05

real focus that people want is jobs and

27:08

security once they, you know, may have a

27:10

small house over their head, they may have

27:12

a toilet in their village, but without a

27:14

job, they don't have longevity. And that's the real

27:16

concern for people on the ground. Coming

27:20

up, what is Modi's election promise

27:22

to India's nearly one billion

27:24

voters? This

27:28

podcast is brought to you by

27:30

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of the world. Visit AJProducts.ie

27:37

to see how we can make your

27:39

workplace work for you. All right, voting

27:41

is being done in the world's largest

27:43

political contest, the world's largest democracy with

27:45

millions heading to polls in India, six

27:48

week election today. The vote is being

27:50

viewed as a referendum on Prime Minister

27:52

Narendra Modi. The sheer scale of the

27:54

election is mind boggling. There

27:57

are almost a billion registered voters

27:59

in the world. India. There are

28:01

15 million electoral staff and they

28:03

travel across deserts in Northern India,

28:06

glaciers in the Himalayas, jungles, oceans

28:08

to make sure everyone

28:10

can vote. And all the polls say Modi

28:13

will win. Are the elections free

28:15

and fair? Well, it depends who you talk to.

28:17

I mean, on one hand, as you say, it's an amazing

28:20

feat, enormous in scale and the

28:22

sheer access to a voting booth

28:24

or these electronic systems, which is

28:26

the way that India votes is

28:28

incredible. I mean, these electoral offices,

28:31

they go across the Himalayas, they

28:33

go to jungles, they make sure

28:35

even one person in an individual

28:37

village that is only reachable by

28:39

foot will get a voting station

28:41

if they want it. And that

28:44

is really admirable. And it's something

28:46

that, you know, India is

28:48

teaching other countries around the world about

28:50

how to make a voting system. And

28:53

there's access for women. There's

28:55

almost actually by the

28:57

next election, more women will be

28:59

voting than men, which is huge

29:01

as well. Digitally, it's accessible as

29:04

well. So definitely when it comes

29:06

to voting, there is no doubt

29:08

that this is an extremely impressive

29:10

democratic process, the biggest vote in

29:12

history. But when it comes to

29:15

other elements of India's democracy, that's

29:17

where critics are concerned. I mean,

29:19

just in the last month or

29:21

so, we've seen opposition leaders being arrested and

29:23

jailed. We've seen the Congress Party, which has

29:25

spoken about quite a lot. Their accounts have

29:28

been frozen, accused of tax fraud. And what

29:30

researchers have told us and what they say

29:32

publicly is that 90% of

29:35

these cases are targeted at

29:37

opposition members. The BJP does not seem

29:39

to be targeted in the same way.

29:41

And there's concerns around how enforcement authorities

29:43

are being used in the lead up

29:46

to the election. And of course, those

29:48

concerns around freedom of the press. So

29:50

look, it's really both sides of the coin.

29:53

But Modi goes out there and he says,

29:55

we're a democratic country. You can't argue with

29:57

that. And you know, maybe there are these

29:59

criticisms. but they maintain that this is

30:01

a democracy. Yeah, we started off

30:04

talking about the possibility that

30:06

Modi's government assassinates dissidents overseas

30:09

and of course you yourself have had to leave

30:11

India. I mean, we've seen

30:13

in Russia how oppression can escalate into

30:15

something very, very dark and very, very

30:17

dangerous, where the same

30:19

leader holds power for a long time.

30:23

Is there talk in India that

30:26

its democracy is in peril? Of

30:29

course there is. There are a lot of critics who

30:31

say that this is no longer

30:33

a democracy and they say that up

30:35

front. Some people say, especially researchers who've

30:37

looked at this space, they say just

30:39

because you have free and fair voting,

30:41

that does not make you a democracy.

30:43

There are plenty of countries which have

30:45

voting on paper. I mean, we've seen

30:47

some of those elections this year alone

30:49

with Bangladesh, for example, where there was

30:51

voting, we saw voting in

30:53

the Pakistan election and there are concerns

30:55

around whether that means that there is

30:57

actually a free and fair vote. And

31:00

so yes, while India is different

31:02

compared to those countries and the

31:04

fact that it's voting on paper

31:07

seems to be quite open and

31:09

transparent, there are real concerns about

31:11

how the Narendra Modi government is

31:13

acting when it comes to its

31:15

treatment of minorities, the press, the

31:17

opposition, any critics or people holding

31:19

the Modi government to account. And

31:22

the other concerns and questions I'm hearing

31:24

are what will happen in the next

31:26

five years when Narendra Modi wins? I

31:28

mean, it's really unlikely he'll lose this

31:30

election. I mean, in

31:32

a big part because there is effectively

31:34

no proper opposition at the moment that

31:36

can really challenge him and have that

31:38

level of popularity. There are people

31:41

who say he'll still lose seats. But

31:43

what people are questioning is what will happen in

31:45

the next five years in India? If

31:47

there is a change of government, what

31:49

would even happen? Could you change 15

31:52

years of this level of shifting of

31:54

democratic ideals? phases

32:01

in an Indian general election to a complete

32:03

at the time of recording the third is

32:05

next week. As you say,

32:07

Modi and his party are predicted to win. But

32:10

how is the campaign going?

32:13

And I mean, is

32:15

there even a vague possibility of

32:17

Modi losing? Or is at this point, is it

32:19

just about the scale of his victory? There's

32:23

of course, I mean, always, I mean,

32:25

there's always a chance that Modi could

32:27

lose it is still a democracy that

32:29

is still a possibility because

32:31

we've seen in many different countries around

32:33

the world, the polls say that someone's

32:35

definitely going to win an election and

32:37

then it doesn't eventuate. And that is,

32:40

of course, a possibility here. But I

32:42

think the difference here is there isn't

32:44

really a key contender that is able

32:46

to sort of battle Narendra Modi in

32:49

this way. We have seen an alliance

32:51

of more than two dozen opposition parties

32:53

coming to the other trying to put

32:55

aside their differences and forming this group

32:57

called the India Alliance. But even that

32:59

alliance is struggling to agree on policies

33:01

who the face of the campaign will

33:03

be. And obviously, we're already into voting

33:06

at this stage as well. And

33:08

I think then that does make

33:11

you ask a few questions about

33:13

why Narendra Modi is taking some

33:15

of these actions. Why is the

33:17

press being targeted? Why are opposition

33:19

leaders being targeted? And that's meant

33:22

some people are saying, well, maybe Modi

33:24

isn't as secure as he says he is

33:26

and what the polls say he is. Maybe

33:29

he is worried. Maybe their internal polling says

33:31

something different and that he might lose more

33:33

seats than people have expected and will have

33:35

to form a coalition. But

33:38

the fact is, at this stage, from what I've seen

33:40

on the ground, it does seem unlikely someone

33:42

else can lead India after this election. It

33:44

seems clear Narendra Modi will win in some

33:46

way. But it'll be interesting to see how

33:48

much of a victory he will be able

33:50

to get. I mean, Modi is going around

33:53

in his campaign saying they'll win 400 seats,

33:55

which would be a huge, huge victory for

33:57

them if they could do that. be

34:00

a landslide, but many are

34:02

saying that that's probably not possible that the

34:04

BJP will actually lose seats. So I think

34:06

that will be the real thing to look

34:08

at at the next election. Avani

34:10

Diaz, thank you very much. My thanks to Avani Diaz. The

34:12

seven-part podcast or confirm

34:19

modi is well worth a listen wherever you

34:21

get your podcasts. And for

34:23

more coverage of the Indian election,

34:26

subscribe to irishtimes.com forward

34:28

slash subscribe. I'm Bernice

34:30

Harrison. This episode is produced by Declan

34:32

Conlon. In the news, we'll be back tomorrow.